Episode 5: T.M. Krishna

[00:00:00] My name is Aditya Prakash and you're listening to a search for Identity and Beauty, an ISOLASHUN Podcast.

[00:00:17] Aditya Prakash. Aditya Prakash. Aditya Prakash. Aditya Prakash.

[00:00:24] During one summer visit to Chennai, India back in 1999 when I was 11 years old and I'd visit Chennai during my summer vacation from school for my intensive, karnatic training.

[00:00:37] My teacher at the time, Sugandha Kalamagam, took me to this person's house. His name was Mr. Jagga.

[00:00:43] Now he was a very knowledgeable karnatic music aficionado or raseka as they're called and he had an amazing collection of cassette recordings from old karnatic concerts of the legendary artists.

[00:00:56] So Sugandha aunty as I used to call her and I'm sure you all by now know that in Indian culture we call anyone that's elder senior to us, aunty or uncle.

[00:01:07] But she was the teacher who instilled this obsession with collecting and listening to old concert cassettes as a learning tool so she invited me to meet Mr. Jagga to have a listen to his collection.

[00:01:22] That day I went to his house and there was another person there that I got a quick glance of before he popped into another room and closed the door.

[00:01:31] He was a young handsome looking guy.

[00:01:34] As my teacher, Sugandha aunty was in conversation with Mr. Jagga, I kind of dazed off and started strolling around the house looking at pictures and artifacts.

[00:01:46] But then my attention moved to this incredibly, incredibly beautiful voice that was humming from somewhere in the house.

[00:01:53] I could hear it behind a closed door.

[00:01:56] I tuned out all the chit-chattern locked in on that one voice.

[00:02:00] I hadn't heard a voice like that in the flesh.

[00:02:03] The handsome man that I saw earlier came out of the room. It was his voice.

[00:02:08] He continued humming as if nobody else existed, pacing around the house.

[00:02:13] He actually had a really strangely loud voice so his humming wasn't really discreet but he didn't seem to care.

[00:02:21] I shyly went back to Sugandha aunty who was still talking to Mr. Jagga and I asked her in a soft whisper, who is that person over there?

[00:02:29] He was lost in his own world but my teacher snapped him out and called him as if he were a little boy.

[00:02:36] Hey Krishna, my student wants to meet you. Come.

[00:02:40] I was so embarrassed. He stopped what he was doing. He smiled and said, hey nice to meet you.

[00:02:47] We made some small talk and then I left.

[00:02:50] In the car on the way back I asked Sugandha aunty who he is.

[00:02:54] When she said his name is T.M. Krishna and he's an excellent young singer who is making waves in the scene now.

[00:03:00] That moment that summer of 1999, that day was day one of my obsession with this incredible artist T.M. Krishna who now 24 years later is my music mentor.

[00:03:14] I was just talking to him.

[00:03:22] See, don't be angry.

[00:03:26] Don't be angry.

[00:03:28] Don't be angry.

[00:03:32] Don't be angry.

[00:03:35] No, don't be angry.

[00:03:37] It's all there.

[00:03:39] There is nothing. Don't know G.A. sir.

[00:03:42] It's all there. We'll just flow with it.

[00:03:45] Don't first practice and don't discard anything using it.

[00:03:48] There is some good should using.

[00:03:50] It's okay. Sing that good should be there.

[00:03:52] Then you have to cut it all. Because your conscience is that it's not working.

[00:03:55] If you're singing without knowing it's wrong, then it's your interview.

[00:03:59] You're not there. You're going to worry about it.

[00:04:02] Don't filter.

[00:04:04] Please don't filter.

[00:04:06] I'm not filtering at all.

[00:04:08] I'm just singing.

[00:04:10] When you practice, you have to sing.

[00:04:12] Don't just forget about it.

[00:04:14] Krishna Anna as I call him, Anna means elder brother.

[00:04:17] Krishna Anna has been a huge guide and mentor since the year 2016 in my musical journey

[00:04:25] and especially in the creation of isolation.

[00:04:30] My own personal relationship to Krishna Anna's music has been a journey in itself,

[00:04:36] going from obsession, emulation at one point, disliked and doubt,

[00:04:40] but now all in wonderment.

[00:04:42] But no matter what, his music hits me at my core.

[00:04:45] It makes me feel rather than think.

[00:04:48] And I'd say this is rare in today's music

[00:04:51] and I'm so, so happy to be having him on this episode.

[00:04:56] Thank you for speaking with me, Krishna Anna.

[00:04:59] Pleasure, Aditya.

[00:05:01] So I wanted to discuss with you this idea of beauty

[00:05:05] because redefining my idea of beauty has been one of the main areas of exploration on this album,

[00:05:11] isolation.

[00:05:13] But I wanted to ask you first in three words how would you define beauty?

[00:05:19] Hmm, that's a tough one.

[00:05:21] Maybe a sentence, no three words,

[00:05:24] but I think beauty is being able to see yourself for what you are.

[00:05:30] Wow.

[00:05:32] But you must have arrived here at this definition of beauty, right?

[00:05:36] Meaning, meaning?

[00:05:38] Like, Tim Krishna, 15, 20 years ago, would he have the same definition of beauty?

[00:05:42] Oh no.

[00:05:44] At that point I would have said probably that beauty to me is that which I find beautiful.

[00:05:52] Yes. So what is beautiful then?

[00:05:54] Well, that's where we get into problems, right?

[00:05:56] What is beautiful?

[00:05:58] We know how our brain is networked.

[00:06:02] We also know how we create,

[00:06:04] we have cognition of things and we have built on that as opinions and perspectives and perceptions.

[00:06:10] So beauty often is a reiteration of a habit

[00:06:14] and an extension of a habit.

[00:06:16] By extension I mean there is some correlative connection

[00:06:20] between the habit that you are used to and something that you're saying.

[00:06:24] So either it's literally that or it's an extension of that.

[00:06:28] So for example, if you listen to melodies or listen to certain kind of rhythm patterns

[00:06:32] that you're used to from childhood

[00:06:34] and then you hear say something from a different culture.

[00:06:36] It may not be exactly that but you extrapolate what you've learned from here

[00:06:42] okay into that and you find beauty.

[00:06:44] You can also find ugliness but the way you will find beauty in it

[00:06:48] is by extrapolating something you already know and saying,

[00:06:52] oh that's redesigned in this manner and it's beautiful

[00:06:56] or it's an interesting interpretation or etc.

[00:07:00] But it means that in some way when we're saying something is beautiful

[00:07:04] normally in normal parlance

[00:07:06] we are somehow saying that it gives us pleasure.

[00:07:10] That's what we say.

[00:07:12] So there is a direct correlation between you feeling better

[00:07:16] or more comfortable

[00:07:20] and beauty or simply put prettiness

[00:07:24] in some way beauty is

[00:07:26] received as prettiness.

[00:07:28] I realized my idea of beauty was a bit one sided.

[00:07:32] When I thought of beauty it was definitely about a feeling

[00:07:36] but when it translated into sound

[00:07:40] it hit me that I equated beauty with the sort of prettiness that he was talking about.

[00:07:44] It was a comfort, a familiarity

[00:07:48] and it struck me that my view of what is beautiful wasn't growing.

[00:07:52] It was kind of stagnant.

[00:07:56] And so in this process of expanding my own ideas of beauty

[00:08:00] to include not just the pretty

[00:08:02] beauty became something much more

[00:08:04] and to me that expanded my sonic approach throughout the album.

[00:08:08] Because it is so

[00:08:12] I'm saying this carefully, so manipulated

[00:08:16] by what you already have experienced.

[00:08:20] Many times just consumption

[00:08:24] and that's what's boxing beauty

[00:08:28] into prettiness. Like essentially what social media is doing

[00:08:32] making beauty something consumptive.

[00:08:34] And in this process it's boxing in what beauty is.

[00:08:38] No doubt about for example Instagram means a great place to start.

[00:08:42] It's made the physical aspect

[00:08:46] of what you are, such an important communicative tool.

[00:08:50] But it's not, it is not, you know, we love to use the word diversity diverse.

[00:08:54] But we know that's not real.

[00:08:58] We know what frames are beautiful,

[00:09:00] what kind of angles are beautiful.

[00:09:04] How should a person dress and look on Instagram?

[00:09:08] What should they post, what filters do they use?

[00:09:10] This entire thing is a homogenous methodology.

[00:09:14] It also about your own physical appearance.

[00:09:18] Places like Instagram definitely create an issue there

[00:09:22] because they are saying that you need to look a certain way.

[00:09:24] You need to sing a certain way.

[00:09:26] You need to sing for a certain period

[00:09:28] or dance in a certain manner.

[00:09:30] So there is, in all this there is this idea of prettiness

[00:09:34] of so-called perceived beauty and beautifulness.

[00:09:38] And these platforms like every other platform

[00:09:42] because we are in a way trained that way,

[00:09:44] our places where we homogenize the notion of what is beautiful.

[00:09:48] And we also make it aspirational.

[00:09:52] We also other people who don't conform to this,

[00:09:54] conform into something like this.

[00:09:56] We are othering people.

[00:09:58] We are making people feel nervous about putting something out.

[00:10:02] Does this look good enough?

[00:10:06] It also means we are manipulating who we are.

[00:10:08] You manipulate your tone, you manipulate your sound.

[00:10:12] You pitch correct to the point of ridiculousness.

[00:10:16] Even if you say, okay, some of them are out of his mind.

[00:10:20] It's fine, it's a production.

[00:10:22] But you go to the point of sounding plastic and synthetic.

[00:10:24] Right?

[00:10:26] So there is seriously something disturbing about this entire phenomena

[00:10:30] that we need to step back and think about.

[00:10:42] Perfection is a scary thing.

[00:10:44] Is it even real?

[00:10:46] Does it even exist?

[00:10:48] We stand with the perfection that we've imposed on ourselves.

[00:10:52] Is it producing something honest and real?

[00:10:58] I had to think deeply about that.

[00:11:02] There are so many times in this album I was just tempted

[00:11:06] to keep doing things till it sounded to my ear perfect.

[00:11:12] And after a while, I just needed to just go back

[00:11:18] to the first take where I screwed up.

[00:11:22] Because there's an honesty in that.

[00:11:24] And letting go of this idea of perfection,

[00:11:27] the perfect take where I'm perfectly on pitch

[00:11:30] and perfectly in time,

[00:11:32] I needed to let go of this because that doesn't exist.

[00:11:36] The perfection is in the imperfection I learned.

[00:11:48] So in the context of charnatic music, what role does beauty play?

[00:11:52] Like, what is beautiful about charnatic music?

[00:11:56] What is beautiful about charnatic music?

[00:11:58] I don't think it's possible to even answer that.

[00:12:00] Because a lot of it is also my habit or your habit.

[00:12:04] So what I think is beautiful about charnatic music

[00:12:06] at a very surface level could be just a question of conditioning.

[00:12:10] But the more interesting thing is to say,

[00:12:12] okay, suppose I don't go there,

[00:12:14] there's something that is in the construction of the form

[00:12:18] in the way it's various elements interact or coexist,

[00:12:22] participate.

[00:12:24] Is there something that is beautiful?

[00:12:26] Now here when I use the word beautiful,

[00:12:28] I am not using it in terms of it being pretty.

[00:12:32] But I'm saying is there something deeper

[00:12:34] in the way these communicate with each other?

[00:12:36] Yeah.

[00:12:37] That allows me to reflect upon myself

[00:12:40] or touches upon a deeper part of me that makes me pause

[00:12:44] or that does something to that stomach of yours for no reason.

[00:12:48] Right? Right.

[00:12:50] So I think that's an interesting way to look at beauty.

[00:12:54] It's to say, why have these elements been brought together by the human being

[00:12:58] and why do they invoke something in you?

[00:13:02] Right.

[00:13:03] You could argue and say even that invoking is culturally specific.

[00:13:06] Maybe it is.

[00:13:08] But the fact of the matter is that

[00:13:14] that jigsaw puzzle when it comes together,

[00:13:16] it can communicate beyond a cultural habit.

[00:13:20] As long as it's just the jigsaw puzzle,

[00:13:22] not all the paraphernalia built on it.

[00:13:24] When you say paraphernalia, what exactly do you mean?

[00:13:26] Many people say, you know, for example,

[00:13:28] kinetic music doesn't reach everybody.

[00:13:30] If you actually see,

[00:13:32] is it the music that is not reaching

[00:13:34] or is it the culture that is not reaching?

[00:13:36] That's an interesting question.

[00:13:38] So because when you hear, I hear you sing,

[00:13:40] sound just doesn't just come from your mouth and pop into my head

[00:13:42] or through my ears.

[00:13:44] It's coming through hundreds of thousands of images

[00:13:48] of what that sound represents.

[00:13:50] So you sing a song, there is an image of the song,

[00:13:54] the sound has a cultural resonance,

[00:13:56] it has my home, it has my grandmother,

[00:13:58] it has my teacher,

[00:14:00] it has concerts I've heard, etc., etc., etc.,

[00:14:02] I reminisce about the same song sung by somebody else.

[00:14:06] And then you do something new and say,

[00:14:08] I've never heard that before.

[00:14:10] This entire thing is coming through these layers of impressions

[00:14:14] and then I'm saying wow,

[00:14:16] now flip it

[00:14:18] and say think of a person who's not connected to

[00:14:21] kinetic music,

[00:14:22] who's othered by this culture.

[00:14:24] Now what are all the layers of impressions

[00:14:27] through which the sound is coming?

[00:14:29] So by the time the sound actually reaches the person's ear,

[00:14:33] it's horrible.

[00:14:35] So what is horrible?

[00:14:37] Is it the sound or is it everything that's coming in between?

[00:14:41] So my point is this is the paraphernalia.

[00:14:43] If we can minimize the paraphernalia,

[00:14:45] we'll never be able to take it all out.

[00:14:47] Then maybe, and I believe

[00:14:49] the sound is never the problem

[00:14:51] because the sound represents power.

[00:14:53] If it represents an oppressive way of looking at culture.

[00:14:57] If it represents a homogenizing habit.

[00:15:00] If it represents a condescension towards other forms of beauty.

[00:15:05] If it's communicating all this by the time it enters my ear,

[00:15:09] what will I hear?

[00:15:11] I will hear hatred.

[00:15:13] I will hear anger.

[00:15:15] I will hear something that's you know,

[00:15:17] that's not for me.

[00:15:19] So this is what I mean.

[00:15:21] If I can communicate that coming together of the jigsaw

[00:15:26] and remove at least a large portion of the paraphernalia,

[00:15:30] then I don't believe that

[00:15:32] it needs to be culturally specific

[00:15:35] or culturally trapped.

[00:15:37] That's a better way to put it.

[00:15:38] Culturally caught and trapped.

[00:15:40] Which also means many things.

[00:15:42] It can't be just about this.

[00:15:44] It also means that the people singing have to be diverse.

[00:15:47] People listening have to be diverse.

[00:15:49] So then this whole question of breaking down the paraphernalia

[00:15:52] is easier.

[00:15:54] Because then different kinds of communication start coming.

[00:15:57] You know the stories, there are narratives that are built

[00:16:00] around the music, then become far more complicated, far more open.

[00:16:06] That allows for the breakdown to paraphernalia.

[00:16:11] Isolation wasn't made to create an album.

[00:16:15] It was part of a search.

[00:16:17] It was a part of a journey for me.

[00:16:19] And that journey was about

[00:16:22] removing and shedding the paraphernalia

[00:16:25] that I've put around Carnatic Music.

[00:16:28] It was about finding an honest relationship,

[00:16:31] a personal relationship to Carnatic Music.

[00:16:34] Krishna asked me this question,

[00:16:36] what does Carnatic Music mean to you?

[00:16:38] And I had no answer for that.

[00:16:40] Nobody's ever asked me that.

[00:16:42] The very core fundamental basic question

[00:16:44] that we should all ask ourselves

[00:16:46] with anything that we're doing.

[00:16:48] And I was just thinking about it.

[00:16:51] After this process of a couple of years

[00:16:55] of just thinking about this

[00:16:57] and with conversations with him

[00:16:59] and other mentors,

[00:17:01] I came to realize that Carnatic Music

[00:17:03] is nothing besides Raga,

[00:17:05] Juzmelity,

[00:17:06] Sahitya which is lyrics.

[00:17:08] And lyrics don't always need to be linguistic lyrics.

[00:17:12] And Dala, rhythm.

[00:17:16] That is not culturally bound.

[00:17:18] That has no paraphernalia.

[00:17:19] That is something that is so universal.

[00:17:21] So to me, that open Carnatic Music,

[00:17:23] Carnatic Music could be anything.

[00:17:25] Isolation is Carnatic Music.

[00:17:28] But at the same time, it's not.

[00:17:30] And that was the exciting space

[00:17:32] that I wanted to be in.

[00:17:40] So in Carnatic Music,

[00:17:42] there is of course a structure.

[00:17:44] The boundaries we're working within

[00:17:46] rules of right and wrong in the Sonic palette.

[00:17:49] But what's the bandwidth we can push that Sonic palette?

[00:17:52] How can we open up that Sonic palette in Carnatic Music?

[00:17:56] Well, I think the Sonic palette is always open.

[00:17:59] It's not like it is not open.

[00:18:01] I mean if you look at,

[00:18:02] I do think that for example

[00:18:04] the level to which we sing Dhamma Khaas today

[00:18:06] has definitely increased from the past.

[00:18:09] I don't believe you were so intensive

[00:18:11] in the styles.

[00:18:12] Right.

[00:18:13] Very good.

[00:18:16] Very good.

[00:18:17] Very good.

[00:18:20] Very good.

[00:18:23] Very good.

[00:18:25] Very good.

[00:18:26] Very good.

[00:18:28] Very good.

[00:18:29] The Gama Kha is the quintessential Carnatic sound.

[00:18:32] It's a complex and nuanced movement.

[00:18:35] In a nutshell,

[00:18:36] the Gama Kha occupies

[00:18:38] a fluid dynamic and moving position

[00:18:41] unlike a fixed position,

[00:18:43] which when you look at a piano

[00:18:45] or a keyboard you see each note

[00:18:48] is slotted into a fixed position.

[00:18:50] And so the Gama Kha is what operates

[00:18:53] in between those spaces.

[00:18:55] But the best way to actually understand

[00:18:57] is to hear it.

[00:18:59] So I'm going to sing

[00:19:00] and pay attention to the note Ma.

[00:19:03] So it's to believe that the sonic palette has been constant,

[00:19:22] of a constant manner or nature.

[00:19:25] I don't think it's correct.

[00:19:27] Now the difficult question is here

[00:19:31] in today's context,

[00:19:33] when does it cease being Carnatic sound?

[00:19:36] Now that's a very tough one to crack.

[00:19:38] A very difficult to actually say.

[00:19:41] All I could say is I don't like the way

[00:19:44] this is being pushed forward.

[00:19:46] But let me put it this way.

[00:19:49] What will bother me?

[00:19:51] And this is my perception and my perspective.

[00:19:54] What bothers me is when the sonic palette

[00:19:56] is pushed in order to imitate some of the palette.

[00:19:59] Yes.

[00:20:00] That's where I have an issue.

[00:20:02] So for me, the intentionality of pushing the palette is very important.

[00:20:07] Right?

[00:20:08] So if the palette is being pushed in order to imitate

[00:20:11] just another palette because I like that palette

[00:20:14] or that palette is more popular

[00:20:16] or that seems to have greater appeal,

[00:20:19] then I'm like,

[00:20:20] hmm, I will ask questions.

[00:20:23] But if I think that the palette is being pushed

[00:20:25] because there is a directional intention that's happening,

[00:20:29] then it's interesting to look at.

[00:20:31] See, again I don't need to like it or dislike it.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:34] I mean that is irrelevant.

[00:20:36] I'm trying to look at what is the process of this pushing the palette.

[00:20:40] You know, what is the intention behind it?

[00:20:42] To me that amount of seriousness is required

[00:20:45] because often I think we are doing things

[00:20:47] because we just like so many things,

[00:20:49] we're influenced by so many things

[00:20:50] and therefore we're just saying something.

[00:20:51] That to me is quite frivolous.

[00:20:53] That's okay at one level.

[00:20:55] Maybe to begin with you just do it.

[00:20:56] So then at some point you stop and say,

[00:20:57] okay why am I doing this?

[00:21:01] Why am I doing this?

[00:21:03] Why?

[00:21:04] That basic question wasn't on my mind

[00:21:07] till the pandemic locked down.

[00:21:09] When I was literally forced to reflect

[00:21:11] and think and not to get into the busy act of doing and making.

[00:21:16] Why did I feel compelled to use Western musical instruments

[00:21:19] when I was trying to create something contemporary?

[00:21:22] Why did I choose raw guys

[00:21:24] who are less carnatic sounding when I perform to a Western audience?

[00:21:28] Why was Carnatic Music defined by the Cacheri

[00:21:32] or the Constructur that's been in practice for maybe 100 years?

[00:21:36] Is there not another form of Carnatic Music expression?

[00:21:41] These are some of the questions that open up

[00:21:43] the gateways to isolation.

[00:21:45] I learned the importance of asking why am I doing this?

[00:21:54] So if I was going to change the sonic appearance of Sayaraga,

[00:22:04] I mean it requires a lot of thought and also it means that it requires

[00:22:08] not just to understand the past.

[00:22:11] An artist just cannot say,

[00:22:12] I don't care about the past or musicology or even sociology.

[00:22:16] I'm just going to do it from what I know.

[00:22:19] I think there's something very responsible about that.

[00:22:21] To what extent possible you must look at where you got the sound you're seeing today.

[00:22:25] Now without knowing how this sound came into being

[00:22:28] with all its problems,

[00:22:30] with all the erasers that the sound is done,

[00:22:33] that's also true. Understand all that.

[00:22:35] Play a sit in today's context and then say okay from a this complex understanding

[00:22:40] of what I sing,

[00:22:41] where am I moving?

[00:22:43] Then I think there is seriousness to this whole conversation.

[00:22:47] Otherwise it's just an individual doing what they want.

[00:22:49] Well do what you want. I mean, I have not much to say about it.

[00:22:52] There's no roots in that kind of exploration.

[00:22:54] There isn't.

[00:22:55] And your roots is complicated.

[00:22:58] It's embedded in all the what we just spoke about.

[00:23:01] So also if there has been erasers of certain kind of sonic palettes,

[00:23:07] we have to wonder why from where and if they're going to come back

[00:23:11] who has the agency to bring it back?

[00:23:13] Absolutely.

[00:23:14] These are all very difficult questions and there are no easy answers to these questions.

[00:23:18] Right. Right.

[00:23:19] But I think we have to encounter them.

[00:23:21] And we can't just say you know why should we not sing this like this?

[00:23:24] I mean that's a silly question to ask.

[00:23:27] The question is not that.

[00:23:28] Question is where are you going,

[00:23:30] that's the question and that question should not be asked to me.

[00:23:33] You have to ask yourself.

[00:23:35] So when people say who said we should only sing something,

[00:23:38] that's not even a question actually.

[00:23:41] Nobody said it but that's a silly question.

[00:23:44] The point is where are you moving?

[00:23:46] Where has this sound come from?

[00:23:48] How have you internalized this sound?

[00:23:50] And what is when you're moving in this direction,

[00:23:52] what is happening to the identity that you're moving?

[00:23:56] And is that opening another expanse if so in what manner?

[00:23:59] How is it talking with the past?

[00:24:01] How is it talking to the future?

[00:24:03] Yes, you have to spend time with.

[00:24:05] So I've been here in Krishna Anand and say all these things for years.

[00:24:09] I mean, I've been in students since 2016 of watchtist talks.

[00:24:14] And the real simple thing that allowed all of the information

[00:24:21] I learned to actually synthesize and catalyze a change was just time.

[00:24:28] Time is a luxury, it's a privilege.

[00:24:31] And during the pandemic I was lucky that I had time.

[00:24:35] That time is what allowed isolation my album to happen.

[00:24:40] When the world moves back into busyness now,

[00:24:43] my real challenge is to keep finding that time

[00:24:47] to just sit and be bored,

[00:24:49] to sit and reflect,

[00:24:51] to sit and think without doing anything else.

[00:25:00] So when you were giving me feedback for one of my songs,

[00:25:03] isolation, one of the notes you gave me was make it more messy.

[00:25:08] Make it more distorted.

[00:25:10] And I've also heard you say in a talk that you now never do anything

[00:25:16] without a bit of messiness in it.

[00:25:18] So what do you mean by that?

[00:25:20] What is messiness to you?

[00:25:22] I think a moment of discomfort is messiness,

[00:25:30] which is out of what you're used to.

[00:25:35] When within Karnaotic music itself, whatever that is,

[00:25:38] there are different ways you can do it.

[00:25:40] But if you're going to move its palate,

[00:25:42] then there are even many more ways you can do it.

[00:25:44] Because then you're also widening its expanse.

[00:25:51] And then you can create,

[00:25:53] by messiness I mean some kind of distortion

[00:25:55] to the way we are receiving it.

[00:25:58] Because one of the things like I said in the beginning is

[00:26:01] we just receive discomfort.

[00:26:03] Yeah.

[00:26:04] Right?

[00:26:05] At some point I think that has to be challenged.

[00:26:09] Because if you're just receiving comfort, what are you doing?

[00:26:12] We're staying the same.

[00:26:13] You're just saying I'm very happy who I am.

[00:26:15] You're very happy who you are.

[00:26:16] Both of us share this music.

[00:26:17] We're happy with this music.

[00:26:18] Glad to have met you.

[00:26:20] No, that's not the job of art.

[00:26:22] So I think that's what I mean.

[00:26:27] A moment of discomfort.

[00:26:29] It could be sound, it could be physical appearance,

[00:26:33] it could be macchala, it could be anything.

[00:26:36] It could be also just silence out of the blue, just dropping.

[00:26:40] Any kind of sonic challenging of the normative

[00:26:47] is for me discomfort and messiness.

[00:26:51] Is there a danger that even those distortions can become formulaic

[00:27:08] or people just do them for the sake of doing it?

[00:27:11] Again, it's about intention.

[00:27:13] There's a conscious effort to do something.

[00:27:16] When you're creating a distortion,

[00:27:18] you're actually very consciously doing this.

[00:27:21] Things don't just happen accidentally.

[00:27:25] Nothing happens accidentally.

[00:27:28] For that accident to happen, you've done a lot of things.

[00:27:31] So here there's intention to create it.

[00:27:34] Now for example if I'm singing and I just go off key

[00:27:37] because I just lost a note.

[00:27:40] That's not what we're talking about here.

[00:27:42] We are saying I made desire that I want to move this off key somewhere.

[00:27:48] That's what we're talking about.

[00:27:50] So there's an intention to move you in that direction.

[00:27:53] Do you think that there is a space for intentionally moving away

[00:27:57] from pitch and kinetic music?

[00:27:59] Because we're taught that singing off key or up a swarm is wrong.

[00:28:02] It's like the biggest crime you could commit.

[00:28:04] Is there a space for it though?

[00:28:06] So that's an interesting because if you look at this,

[00:28:08] the whole idea of singing pitch varies from form to form.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Singing pitch and kinetic music is not singing pitch in the stony.

[00:28:15] It's not singing pitch in the mackam.

[00:28:17] It's not singing pitch in western opera.

[00:28:19] Which means so many different things.

[00:28:21] It's not singing pitch in gana music.

[00:28:22] It is not singing pitch in kutra.

[00:28:24] So what does it even?

[00:28:25] That is such a diverse idea.

[00:28:27] So the question is, is there room for within the Carnatic sound

[00:28:31] the idea of moving away from locational identification?

[00:28:36] I think there is but we need to think about this carefully

[00:28:40] and say okay how much are we extending it?

[00:28:43] Why are we extending it?

[00:28:44] And what does it do to the raga?

[00:28:46] That's also something that needs to be thought about.

[00:28:49] Because raga is a foundational component of what the music is.

[00:28:53] We can't, this is raga music.

[00:28:55] Let's first see the Carnatic music.

[00:28:57] This is raga music.

[00:28:58] So then what are the aspects?

[00:29:01] The multiple questions.

[00:29:02] Should you then think of a raga that can allow for this kind of a distortion?

[00:29:07] Rather than use a raga that's already there.

[00:29:10] These are all questions that need to be probed.

[00:29:15] In terms like when you mentioned that there is a different pitch for every style.

[00:29:19] Like Carnatic has a pitch in the sun and his pitch.

[00:29:21] That makes me think of the recording industry because now we have one pitch

[00:29:24] which is 440, auto-tune.

[00:29:25] Everything is going to one singular pitch that everyone has to identify as.

[00:29:30] Is that dangerous?

[00:29:32] Oh it is.

[00:29:33] I think it is.

[00:29:34] See this making music clean is making it soulless.

[00:29:39] Because it's correct.

[00:29:41] I think one of the things technology is doing is making us all correct.

[00:29:45] But if you actually see when the most emotive aspects of music happen

[00:29:50] is when there's a little curvature there.

[00:29:52] Everything is not like perfect.

[00:29:54] Perfection, the way we understand it is the most overplayed word.

[00:30:00] I think perfection is a point of emotionlessness.

[00:30:05] My perfection here, I mean getting it correctly there.

[00:30:09] Look at us, we are all emotional species.

[00:30:11] We are not balanced creatures who are just meditating always

[00:30:15] or choosing between being pleasant and kind and angry.

[00:30:19] We just float between these possibilities.

[00:30:22] I am talking to you like this two minutes later,

[00:30:25] you will be in an altercation.

[00:30:26] Might happen.

[00:30:27] Now yeah, might happen.

[00:30:28] But the point is that it's not like there is something that flows from here.

[00:30:33] That's what beyond, that's what music is.

[00:30:35] That's what painting is.

[00:30:36] That's what dance is.

[00:30:37] That there is this vagueness to it.

[00:30:40] And I think that we are now completely taking that out

[00:30:44] from the way we're making music.

[00:30:46] You know, you listen to all the great musicians.

[00:30:49] They are not singing in perfect pitch.

[00:30:51] If there's anything called perfect pitch at all,

[00:30:54] we need to have these things that temper our use of technology.

[00:31:00] That's the only way.

[00:31:01] We can't just say no, I'm not going to use technology at all.

[00:31:04] I'm going to sit in a forest and only do analog live concerts.

[00:31:09] I mean, let's go on.

[00:31:10] Let's be very clear that's not happening.

[00:31:12] But when we are doing these productions,

[00:31:14] I think there is something, to me this is ethical.

[00:31:18] There's something ethical about it because we have to remain real people.

[00:31:23] We have to remain flawed.

[00:31:26] The other thing is I think in some way what we're doing today

[00:31:29] is also a search for this very, very ugly notion of purity.

[00:31:35] Because we're seeking one kind of purity

[00:31:38] that we don't want anything to be just off a little bit

[00:31:41] because something it does disturbs purity.

[00:31:44] I think we have to think about that

[00:31:47] because is this also another homogenizing way of making listen to music?

[00:31:51] Yes, yes.

[00:31:52] You know, is this also way by way of saying

[00:31:53] we don't want that the confusions that happen in making art.

[00:31:57] We don't want those.

[00:31:59] And how much is going to affect the way we perform live?

[00:32:03] It's already is, not that it does not.

[00:32:05] It already is.

[00:32:06] But how much is going to affect that?

[00:32:09] There are many serious ethical issues that we need to ponder over.

[00:32:27] Art is there to challenge our self-centered ego-filled existence.

[00:32:39] Either it is your own or it is people who are imposing it on you.

[00:32:45] It could be either, depending on your social context

[00:32:48] and what kind of art and your degree of marginalization in society.

[00:32:53] Right, right?

[00:32:54] It changes based on that you have content that is created, forms that are put together etc. etc.

[00:33:01] I think it is essential if art is not questioning what is it doing?

[00:33:07] I don't know.

[00:33:08] I don't see a point.

[00:33:09] And questioning can mean so many ways.

[00:33:12] It can be subtle, it can be just in the sound.

[00:33:14] It can be in the suggestiveness.

[00:33:19] It can also be directed, it can also be on your face.

[00:33:22] It can be very particular.

[00:33:24] So I think when we say questioning and challenging the norm,

[00:33:27] it can happen in a wide range of methods and sensory triggers.

[00:33:34] Art is a sensory trigger.

[00:33:37] And I think if there is no questioning, if there is no reflection

[00:33:41] and questioning cannot be there without reflection.

[00:33:44] Then I think art is just a feel good evening.

[00:33:53] I wanted to create art that was reflective of me, reflective of change,

[00:33:59] reflective of the inner reckoning that I was going through, a tectonic shift.

[00:34:05] There was a lot of ugliness I saw in myself and in the world around me.

[00:34:09] So the music I create should reflect that.

[00:34:14] I found so much beauty in this transformation, a beauty in the ugliness

[00:34:21] and it brought me back to Krishna Ananda's answer on what beauty is.

[00:34:26] Beauty is being able to see yourself for what you are.

[00:34:30] I finally understood it now.

[00:34:33] Beauty is a self-reflection.

[00:34:35] It's what allows us to grow and change as human beings, and that is beautiful.

[00:34:42] I am a man.

[00:34:45] I am a man.

[00:34:54] I am a man.

[00:35:00] Thank you for listening.

[00:35:02] This podcast series was produced by Sushma Soma and myself.

[00:35:07] And the music you heard today was taken from albums of mine,

[00:35:11] Isolation, Diaspora Kid, Carnatic Roots,

[00:35:14] and of course you heard some of my class recordings with Tiam Krishna.