In this episode, Desiree Goldey, director, talent operations & culture at ZRG Partners, dives into the transformation of talent acquisition (TA) from a cost center to a revenue driver. She underscores the pivotal role of data in showcasing TA's contribution to revenue growth through metrics like cost per hire and quality of hire. Goldey emphasizes the need for HR and TA to collaborate closely with other departments, such as marketing, to enhance overall efficiency. She also touches on the impact of automation on recruiting processes and the future of HR in a more automated and flexible landscape. Goldey advocates for updating outdated processes and embracing a hybrid work model for better talent management. She concludes with a call for data-driven decision-making in HR and TA, especially in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts.
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[00:01:37] That is ThisWayGlobal.com.
[00:01:41] We out.
[00:01:43] Hide your kids!
[00:01:45] Lock the doors!
[00:01:46] You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast.
[00:01:49] Chad So Wash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts.
[00:01:54] Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark.
[00:01:58] Buckle up, boys and girls.
[00:02:00] It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
[00:02:03] Oh yeah, it's Caitlin Clark's favorite podcast, a.k.a. The Chad and Cheese Podcast.
[00:02:13] I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman.
[00:02:15] Joined as always the Lisa Leslie to my super Chad So Wash is in the building and we welcome Desiree Goldie, director, talent, operations and culture at ZRG.
[00:02:28] Don't call him Zerg, partners.
[00:02:30] Desiree, welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:32] Thank you so much.
[00:02:33] Thank you so much.
[00:02:34] Glad to be here.
[00:02:35] Thank you.
[00:02:36] So a lot of our listeners don't know you.
[00:02:38] May not know ZRG partners.
[00:02:40] Let's get a taste about Desiree.
[00:02:42] Tell us a little bit about the company before we get into the real business of the podcast.
[00:02:46] Yeah, I mean we can do this forever talking about me.
[00:02:50] But I will give you the short bio.
[00:02:55] I do work for ZRG which is a global talent advisory firm.
[00:03:00] So I want to explain a little bit about that.
[00:03:02] That just means that we handle all things talent, executive search, interim placement, consulting and culture and embedded recruiting, which is a division that I work for.
[00:03:11] So come to us for all your talent.
[00:03:13] You're saying Zerg goes pretty deep, it sounds like.
[00:03:16] Just the tip.
[00:03:18] The Zergs.
[00:03:20] Yeah, so yeah, it's a pretty deep situation over here.
[00:03:24] It's great though.
[00:03:25] So you're on the RPO side of the house.
[00:03:27] How big is the organization in total?
[00:03:30] In total, ZRG is about 600 people.
[00:03:33] Okay.
[00:03:34] Yeah, so huge presence.
[00:03:36] I would say the biggest presence is an executive search.
[00:03:38] They went around the globe to acquire some companies including ours, which was originally hub recruiting.
[00:03:46] Gotcha, gotcha.
[00:03:47] Well today she's coming to us to talk about how a broken system needs to be fixed or maybe we're just going to talk about broken systems.
[00:03:56] Hell, I don't know.
[00:03:57] We'll find out.
[00:03:58] So Desiree, we had a great chat around this and I always say this that RPO and staffing looks at this as a business.
[00:04:07] Because it is, right?
[00:04:09] It's the business of talent where talent acquisition looks at it as a job.
[00:04:15] So we want to have a discussion today around how we can start to kind of like push more of the business mindset toward talent acquisition.
[00:04:27] And is that something that ZRG has been doing for years?
[00:04:30] Is this something that's new?
[00:04:32] Are you trying to help TA better understand the business so that they can go ask for more budget?
[00:04:38] What really was the impetus of the push for this?
[00:04:41] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:04:42] I mean, I think in better recruiting we're always talking about it, right?
[00:04:46] Because at the end of the day, we have to justify you bringing us on, right?
[00:04:52] So because we are another cost, you know?
[00:04:55] But at the end of the day, what we go in and we try to figure out how you can speak to your leaders about making this a revenue source that works for you and becoming a revenue center, improving that through data.
[00:05:07] So it's always been a mission.
[00:05:09] Wow.
[00:05:10] So let's go deep on that one.
[00:05:11] How you can start to show revenue growth?
[00:05:16] How do you usually start off with that?
[00:05:18] Because for the most part, talent acquisition, HR, I don't know how many CHROs.
[00:05:23] I've actually had, they've said to me, oh, well, we're a cost center.
[00:05:27] CHROs, they say that they're a cost center.
[00:05:30] So how do you get them out of the mindset?
[00:05:32] Where do you start at?
[00:05:33] Where's the first step?
[00:05:35] For me, it's always talking to them about what is happening within your talent acquisition team or, you know, your HR department.
[00:05:45] Because I mean, how many recruiters just sit in HR?
[00:05:48] What's happening that's making the team more cost, showing more productivity and cost effectiveness to the business?
[00:05:57] If I fill a position in one day less, I've saved that company an extreme amount of money.
[00:06:05] It's just proven in data.
[00:06:07] But the first part is always figuring out if they're even collecting the data, right?
[00:06:12] You know, we get into so many of these organizations.
[00:06:14] They're not even collecting the right things.
[00:06:16] Okay, so right there, right?
[00:06:17] Stop right there.
[00:06:18] Now we're talking about because everybody talks about time to hire and cost per hire, right?
[00:06:22] Yeah.
[00:06:23] Which the C-suite doesn't get two shits about.
[00:06:25] They want to know where you took it to that next step, which is incredibly important.
[00:06:30] And this is different from department to department to department because some departments know better than others how their people impact the bottom line on a daily basis, right?
[00:06:40] Correct.
[00:06:41] Absolutely.
[00:06:42] So how do you dig into that?
[00:06:43] Because I think this is not an incredibly complex formula.
[00:06:47] It's a different one department by department.
[00:06:49] I get that, right?
[00:06:50] But it's not a complex formula.
[00:06:53] How do you guys go and help the TA leaders understand this and actually go after this crazy nebulous number that's out there?
[00:07:03] Yeah, it's the crazy.
[00:07:05] And again, it's not standard for everybody, right?
[00:07:08] Like you already said, right?
[00:07:09] But we can take cost per hire.
[00:07:11] We can look at days time to fill.
[00:07:13] But we also look at quality hire of that hire.
[00:07:17] What was the value?
[00:07:18] How many screens were had?
[00:07:20] How many things got you to that finish line in a short period of time, right?
[00:07:26] I like to go in and when we bring in anyone as an embedded recruiting team, we like to say we get you to the finish line faster.
[00:07:33] And we're able to do that because we're looking at the overall strategy of what you've been doing in the past and how we can make it more efficient, right?
[00:07:41] And get you to the finish line time to hire faster.
[00:07:44] It's not that hard, but it is different for each department and each organization, right?
[00:07:51] Because not everybody cares about the same damn thing.
[00:07:53] Just saying.
[00:07:54] Great.
[00:07:57] You know, and I have a huge issue still with quality of hire, right?
[00:08:01] I struggle with it, right?
[00:08:02] Because if you give me a year recruiter who's only been doing it a year, how am I supposed to measure the quality of that hire from somebody who's been doing it for 20?
[00:08:12] I struggle with the measurement of it.
[00:08:14] But I do think it's something that needs to be looked at.
[00:08:17] I want to say for the record that when I saw it, we were doing a podcast called Broken Systems.
[00:08:22] This was going to be a therapy session for the inner turmoil that I deal with every day.
[00:08:26] It says nothing to do with that.
[00:08:28] Nothing to do with your ED.
[00:08:30] No, I know.
[00:08:31] Right?
[00:08:32] I know.
[00:08:33] I know.
[00:08:34] Sorry about that.
[00:08:35] All right.
[00:08:36] Back to Desiree.
[00:08:37] Desiree, it seems as though...
[00:08:38] Listen, we could go on and on about the brokenness of the people and talent, right?
[00:08:43] But I feel like the struggle is real every day.
[00:08:46] We'll stick with the systems instead of the inner turmoil of the human condition.
[00:08:51] It seems like from a metric standpoint and justifying existence and profit centers,
[00:08:57] everything has to do with building bridges to the departments that are thought of as profit
[00:09:01] centers, whether that's marketing, sales.
[00:09:04] Do you give any recommendations or tips?
[00:09:07] Or what are your thoughts on just building that bridge to marketing, building that bridge?
[00:09:11] So the numbers, it's a coordinated effort instead of HR out on an island somewhere,
[00:09:16] which is I think the case for most organizations.
[00:09:18] Oh, absolutely.
[00:09:19] And I always tell my recruiters where we're going in,
[00:09:21] I want you to be a strategic business partner, right?
[00:09:24] And then that means looking at everything.
[00:09:26] That means meeting with marketing, right?
[00:09:29] If they have a diversity inclusion team, meeting with that team and figuring out what it means to them,
[00:09:35] figuring out competitive intelligence.
[00:09:37] These are things that I don't think we're always talking about in talent that makes us look like
[00:09:42] we're just a cost.
[00:09:43] But if we're working across those departments, we can bridge that gap.
[00:09:48] We can't be the side load thing that's working just by ourselves.
[00:09:52] We need to be reaching out, teaching and training and also learning.
[00:09:57] And that's how we're going to get, we're going to move the needle on this topic.
[00:10:01] Yeah.
[00:10:02] And I, you know, we talked to Jeff Lackey, we talked to him a few times and I'm always,
[00:10:06] always amazed at how, how general conversations aren't happening with HR at the table.
[00:10:11] Air quotes there.
[00:10:12] How do we make money?
[00:10:13] What's our vision for the company?
[00:10:15] What kind of tips would you give to ARM HR to go into that meeting with some good questions,
[00:10:20] some good conversation starters, just to get the ball rolling?
[00:10:23] Yeah.
[00:10:24] I mean, I think that one of the, the conversation that even have the meeting, right?
[00:10:28] Because I think who wants to meet with HR and talent most people, they're like, oh God,
[00:10:33] another talent meeting is people just find me the people.
[00:10:37] Right?
[00:10:38] Just find me the people.
[00:10:39] I don't want to talk about how you need to find the people, right?
[00:10:42] But I think, I think positioning is something we're trying to do better for you so that
[00:10:47] you can make more money at the end of the day is going to be how you get that meeting.
[00:10:52] And then when you go into that meeting, asking really questions about them and doing a lot
[00:10:56] of listening, I find that we go in and we're like trying to prove our case so much that
[00:11:01] we're not actually listening to what the business needs all the time.
[00:11:04] And so sometimes it's just listening, asking defining questions, really doing a deep
[00:11:09] dive on what's happening in their organization, in their department because a lot of departments
[00:11:14] have their own vision for their department.
[00:11:16] And getting to those real deep, deep answers is going to be how you win the war.
[00:11:22] Okay, listener, how can you help your employees become more productive?
[00:11:28] I have answers.
[00:11:29] How about automating manual and repetitive tasks, giving meaning to data, then allowing
[00:11:35] that data to actually drive decisions?
[00:11:38] And how about matching people to your jobs quicker?
[00:11:42] Well, wait, the Chad and Cheese has a new LLM?
[00:11:46] No, cheeseman.
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[00:11:49] Ah, okay, that makes more sense.
[00:11:52] What I'm hearing is the groundbreaking concept of wait for it.
[00:11:57] Simplicity.
[00:11:59] Seriously though, seriously.
[00:12:01] Tex Colonel cuts through the complexities like a tortilla chip through some hot nacho cheese.
[00:12:07] Oh my God, really?
[00:12:08] Nacho references already.
[00:12:10] Anyways, Tex Colonel brings efficiency and productivity to your operations.
[00:12:15] Tex Colonel seamlessly unifies your tools and data to drive efficiencies and success.
[00:12:22] Tex Colonel is creating new opportunities for your recruitment journey, kind of like
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[00:12:31] Oh my God.
[00:12:32] How about extracting meaningful insights from data?
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[00:12:37] Swiftly matching people with jobs, automating repetitive tasks.
[00:12:41] Who knew such advanced concepts were even possible in the land of human resources?
[00:12:49] We did, Chad.
[00:12:51] We did.
[00:12:52] Dude, wrap it up.
[00:12:53] I'm a little hungry.
[00:12:54] Imagine that.
[00:12:55] Okay, listener, get ready to use today's tech to drive efficiencies and productivity.
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[00:13:12] Well, it's interesting because, and again, if we arm ourselves with the data and the understanding
[00:13:21] of what it actually costs per day for just a specific position to be open, then we can
[00:13:28] actually take a look at some of the protracted areas of our process.
[00:13:32] And many of those are hiring managers that could have actually cost the organization,
[00:13:37] who knows how much?
[00:13:39] Thousands of dollars just because it took them so long to get on the interview, make a decision,
[00:13:45] et cetera, et cetera.
[00:13:46] But if we don't have those numbers, we can't make any of those cases.
[00:13:49] Not to mention, we can't speed up those hiring managers because we're not talking their
[00:13:55] language.
[00:13:56] If we're actually saying, look, every day it costs X, right?
[00:14:00] Let's say $2,000, which is a very low number by the way.
[00:14:05] $2,000, right?
[00:14:06] Every day that you don't do something or this doesn't move along.
[00:14:10] But the problem is we're not armed with those numbers.
[00:14:13] So how you're talking about data, how do we go after that data?
[00:14:16] How do we get those numbers?
[00:14:17] Yeah, I mean, listen, I think this is a systems and technology thing too.
[00:14:21] I was talking to someone the other day about how all of these tools are out there right
[00:14:26] now for talent, right?
[00:14:28] And no one's using them effectively.
[00:14:30] I was in a great Ashby demo the other day and all the things it can do.
[00:14:35] But if you don't take the advantage of the things that it's able to do, it's just like
[00:14:40] buying a useless tool, right?
[00:14:42] And for my startups, I'm like, I know you have an analyst, right?
[00:14:45] If you have an analyst, let him do some Power BI work over there or something, right?
[00:14:50] Like you can get to the date of the numbers are there.
[00:14:53] You just need to collect them and get to them and then have someone who knows how
[00:14:57] to analyze them too, right?
[00:14:59] Because I think we struggle with that.
[00:15:01] Some people are like, oh, well, this chart looks great, but what do I do with
[00:15:04] this now?
[00:15:05] And definitely in our field, I think there needs to be more training around analytics.
[00:15:09] It just bottom line.
[00:15:11] This is funny, Desiree.
[00:15:12] We were in the Ashby demo as well and we have a sound bite from that presentation.
[00:15:17] 60% of the time it works every time.
[00:15:21] So Desiree, I feel like a lot of turning something into profit means cutting it.
[00:15:29] We're living in the era of efficiency.
[00:15:32] Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg.
[00:15:34] And we've seen a lot of layoffs in recruiting and the departments that we're talking about today.
[00:15:40] Do you see a future where those departments come back?
[00:15:44] And if so, do they look different or is everyone just going to automate
[00:15:50] as much as they can to save as much money?
[00:15:53] Which, oh, a penny saved is a penny earned, right?
[00:15:56] So how does the future play out with returning recruiters or not?
[00:16:00] Yeah, I think it looks differently.
[00:16:02] I don't think they come back the way they were and that's just my opinion,
[00:16:06] but I think they come back in a very different way.
[00:16:09] Listen, if I'm a leader, I don't want to do the layoff at the end of the year
[00:16:13] where I'm laying off 20 people.
[00:16:15] It just doesn't, it's just not right for the business.
[00:16:17] It doesn't seem to make sense.
[00:16:18] So if I'm smart, I'm going in with a different view and I'm figuring out how to get all of this work done
[00:16:23] because I still have the same amount of work in a very different way.
[00:16:27] I do think there's automation that's going to happen.
[00:16:29] I don't think it takes over talent.
[00:16:31] I'm not a believer, but I just think it's just not true.
[00:16:34] But there is going to be a different way to do that get this done.
[00:16:38] And that's where folks like ZRG come in to get some of that work done.
[00:16:43] You know, we work in an embedded recruiting model that works on an hourly basis per quarter,
[00:16:48] which means you can switch us on and off, right?
[00:16:50] So in the times where you have this high volume that's happening, great.
[00:16:54] Let's come in and do what you need to do.
[00:16:56] And then we can go away and you haven't laid anybody off.
[00:16:59] I just think there's very different versions of what this looks like at the end of the day.
[00:17:04] So you being on the front lines, are you getting more calls from companies saying,
[00:17:07] you know what, we laid off half of our department.
[00:17:10] We need to ramp up recruiting again, but we don't want to go back to the way it was.
[00:17:14] We're going to go RPO.
[00:17:16] We're going to go out.
[00:17:17] Like, are you having more of those conversations these days?
[00:17:21] Yeah.
[00:17:22] 2023 was the worst embedded recruiting in RPO.
[00:17:26] We saw more RPOs go away because it just, they were laying off people.
[00:17:31] Why would you talk to an RPO?
[00:17:33] But now that they figured out they laid off all these people,
[00:17:36] but still have the same amount of work.
[00:17:37] Yes.
[00:17:38] Duh.
[00:17:39] Right?
[00:17:40] Now we need to do something about it, but I can't bring all that staff back.
[00:17:43] So yes, it's like 50% higher amount of the amount of calls we've seen since the end of January.
[00:17:50] So business is good at Zerg.
[00:17:52] I like it.
[00:17:53] Zerg is doing great.
[00:17:55] So yeah.
[00:17:56] ZRG is pumping.
[00:17:57] It's amazing you cut that much staff and productivity drops.
[00:18:01] Oh, I wonder how that happened.
[00:18:02] I don't know because people actually do the damn work for God's sakes.
[00:18:06] It's amazing.
[00:18:07] But I mean, like the, the Facebooks of the world, the Fang companies,
[00:18:10] they were so bloated that they could get rid of tens of thousands of people
[00:18:15] and it wouldn't really freaking matter in the first place because their profit margins are so high.
[00:18:20] So at the end of the day, let's talk about process automation
[00:18:23] because everybody's talking about AI.
[00:18:26] That's all well and good.
[00:18:28] Whether it's RPA, AI, just process automation in itself.
[00:18:32] Are you helping companies?
[00:18:34] Because many of these companies have the same process they had 10, 15, 20 damn years ago.
[00:18:41] Are you helping them understand right out of the gate that they need to scrap that shit and start from ground zero?
[00:18:48] All the time.
[00:18:50] I can't tell you enough.
[00:18:52] How many times I go in and go, what is happening?
[00:18:55] Give me a success story.
[00:18:56] And does that include technology always?
[00:18:59] I mean, just give us kind of like a, you know, like a success story.
[00:19:03] Yeah, high level client we have right now.
[00:19:05] We went in and they had no system or no process in place.
[00:19:09] So I use that or they were using a very outdated view of what was happening in the world of talent.
[00:19:15] And we went in, we said, listen, first of all, you have to get an ATS.
[00:19:19] I don't understand what's happening that you're not tracking where anybody goes through spreadsheet.
[00:19:24] So we were able to integrate greenhouse actually for them.
[00:19:28] My recruiters and my team then went through and talked about automation,
[00:19:33] talked about the next steps, talked about strategy, talked about interviewing,
[00:19:37] talked about all the things to rewrite the process.
[00:19:40] And right now we're three months in and it's up and running, filling,
[00:19:44] filling jobs, getting things done.
[00:19:46] It's working, but we had to scrap their idea, which was very, I will say this anytime we go in with a,
[00:19:53] you know, a traditional leader,
[00:19:55] it is the hardest experience to get them to come to the other side.
[00:20:01] Why?
[00:20:02] I think that they just believe what's working works and if we have to change everything.
[00:20:08] I mean, who likes change, right?
[00:20:10] And at the end of the day, but I just think they get stuck in this talent is just this thing that should be handled this way.
[00:20:17] And it's just not true anymore.
[00:20:19] There's just too many things going on in the world, including AI, including all the other automations,
[00:20:24] all the things that they could be doing were effectively.
[00:20:27] We actually work from a tech stack that we are able to say like this fits here and this fits there
[00:20:32] and let me help you get these tools and see if they work because that's what we love to do.
[00:20:38] We love to go in and help you get to a better place in your talent.
[00:20:42] So what are you guys doing with your recruiters though?
[00:20:45] Because I think that's the biggest key is the people who are actually on the ground doing the work in the trenches day by day by day.
[00:20:52] If they understand process automation, they understand how to use technologies to be more efficient, right?
[00:20:59] Then you can go in and show value almost instantaneously.
[00:21:03] So what are you guys doing to be able to continue to upgrade those recruiter skills?
[00:21:10] Because technology is, I mean, if you're not using it, it's going to kill you.
[00:21:14] There's no question.
[00:21:15] Yeah.
[00:21:16] So my second part of my title is culture and that means a lot for us here in bed of recruiting.
[00:21:23] We are constantly having skill sessions.
[00:21:26] We are constantly bringing in speakers.
[00:21:28] We are constantly, we just did a chat GBT one where we're having how to talk financials right now because I do believe that to be.
[00:21:36] I believe to be a strategic business partner in talent acquisition.
[00:21:39] You have to be on top of your game at every moment and we can't put you at a client if you are.
[00:21:45] At this level, because they can go get Joe Schmo recruiter.
[00:21:49] I need to have the brightest and the best to put in front of you.
[00:21:53] So we're constantly doing that here.
[00:21:55] It's necessary.
[00:21:56] It's necessary for myself.
[00:21:58] I did attend more webinars and stuff that I know what to do with my son.
[00:22:01] From my understanding, you listen to a lot of Chad and cheese.
[00:22:03] That's how you get all your information.
[00:22:05] Hello.
[00:22:06] I do.
[00:22:07] I am a long time.
[00:22:10] It seems like the other side of bringing people back going RPO instead would be the globalization.
[00:22:21] You talked about getting the best of the best and one of the magic elements of work from home and remote is I can get the best because I have the world to choose from.
[00:22:30] What are you seeing on the front lines of companies that are bringing people back?
[00:22:34] It seems like we go back and forth like we're from home is happening.
[00:22:37] No, it's not.
[00:22:38] Return to office is happening.
[00:22:39] No, wait a minute.
[00:22:40] No, okay.
[00:22:41] It's going.
[00:22:42] What do you see on the front lines from your companies?
[00:22:44] Are they widening the net on a global level and letting people work from wherever?
[00:22:48] Or do you see more control freakish?
[00:22:51] They're all getting back to the office and you need to work in that bubble, not the global.
[00:22:58] I love it.
[00:22:59] I know I see both.
[00:23:00] Right?
[00:23:01] Like I see it happening in both ways.
[00:23:03] I see startups being usually the more lenient of these.
[00:23:07] Right?
[00:23:08] They're like, hey, work from wherever you want.
[00:23:10] Do whatever you want to do.
[00:23:11] Work whatever's going on.
[00:23:12] But these very traditional companies are doing the hybrid thing more often than not.
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[00:24:08] So you see both sides.
[00:24:10] Where are you on the argument?
[00:24:12] Are you buying returned office or are you buying work from home?
[00:24:16] Hell no.
[00:24:17] If I have to see the inside of an office, again, I'm going to be really, really sad.
[00:24:22] I am a...
[00:24:24] I am.
[00:24:25] I do not believe in water cooler talk.
[00:24:28] Okay.
[00:24:29] It drives me absolutely bad.
[00:24:31] So I will say no to return to office, but I...
[00:24:35] On the front, I do believe there is a world where hybrid makes the most sense for me.
[00:24:41] My partner goes in one day a week and that's it.
[00:24:44] And it works for them, right?
[00:24:47] I don't have a problem with that, but I'm not sitting in 45 minutes traffic in Austin, Texas to get to you so I can start my workday.
[00:24:56] It's just totally...
[00:24:58] 45 minutes is like a mile away in Austin.
[00:25:01] Hybrid to me is return to work, isn't it?
[00:25:04] I mean, I can't live in Burlington, Vermont if I got to be in the office two days a week in Miami, right?
[00:25:11] I agree.
[00:25:12] The talent side of things says that that lessens your pool, right?
[00:25:17] Immediately.
[00:25:18] Like you no longer get the best and the brightest because you now just like shrunk your pool to this little thing.
[00:25:24] And it's ridiculous, right?
[00:25:26] So to me, if you want the best and brightest, stop.
[00:25:29] Let it work for wherever.
[00:25:31] Well, and again, this is the business side of talent, right?
[00:25:36] And it's interesting because working a few years on the dark side over at Ronstod, you know, at RSR, everybody was remote.
[00:25:44] I mean, everybody was remote.
[00:25:45] And that was the best way to keep an incredibly flexible and fluid workforce.
[00:25:51] I mean, you've got the benches that you're dealing with.
[00:25:54] You've got clients that are all over the place.
[00:25:56] You need to have individuals in different time zones.
[00:26:00] So if you're a big company actually trying to ensure that you're giving your clients the best customer service and, you know, just times, phone times or whatever it might be.
[00:26:13] Having a remote force is generally the way to go.
[00:26:18] And if you see big companies who are customer focused, that's what you're saying.
[00:26:22] Yeah, we have a client right now.
[00:26:24] We're doing diversity, equity, inclusion, hiring strategy with right now.
[00:26:29] And I just had this argument about return to office and how it lessens the pool for them for diverse candidates.
[00:26:37] I mean, you're killing my speed here right now.
[00:26:40] What do you want me to do?
[00:26:41] You want me to work in Dubuque, Iowa for like, you know, all the women and all the black people?
[00:26:48] Like what is happening?
[00:26:50] Like I'm sorry.
[00:26:52] Nothing's going to change for you.
[00:26:54] Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:55] You know what I mean?
[00:26:56] So like these are conversations as strategic business partners that talent needs to be having, right?
[00:27:03] And HR needs to be having what is happening to the talent pool.
[00:27:07] Well, and you're doing market research for those organizations to be able to demonstrate to them.
[00:27:11] Hey look, the people that you're looking for aren't here, which is why we need to broaden up.
[00:27:15] And again, I think this is all around data, which we need to get really closer to on the town acquisition side of the house.
[00:27:24] I can't say enough that I stressed it people because I geek out on data and maybe everybody doesn't need to geek out on it.
[00:27:31] Oh, they do.
[00:27:32] But you definitely need to get to a good place where you even understand it and are providing it.
[00:27:39] I don't think we're doing that effectively across talent acquisition.
[00:27:43] I think we have really great moments in it and others do it really well and then there's some that are just start doing it at all, which is kind of stressful for me.
[00:27:54] Like how are you figuring out how to make a move?
[00:27:56] So yeah, absolutely.
[00:27:58] Well, I'll let you out on this Desiree.
[00:28:00] You mentioned DEI and I can't let you go because I know that's a focus of what you are doing.
[00:28:05] We had a big spike in interest with George Floyd, me too.
[00:28:09] You know the spiel.
[00:28:12] Yeah.
[00:28:13] Is DEI on the down?
[00:28:16] Is it stabilizing?
[00:28:18] Is it up?
[00:28:19] Like what are you seeing on the front lines in terms of how companies are embracing or not diversity, equity and inclusion?
[00:28:25] Yeah, it's a struggle for me.
[00:28:27] But I think this work is hard.
[00:28:29] It's always been hard.
[00:28:30] It's always been difficult.
[00:28:32] It's always sucked.
[00:28:33] No one listens.
[00:28:35] The whole jam.
[00:28:37] You know, I don't think this attack is any worse.
[00:28:40] I just think the political scene that we have right now makes it feel a lot tougher.
[00:28:45] I think it's always been a struggle.
[00:28:47] But from an organizational standpoint, I see there are tons of companies still that believe in this, right?
[00:28:54] Because they're seeing again the data that proves this works, right?
[00:28:58] That they can make a difference, right?
[00:29:01] And then there are other organizations that just have never cared, did it to check a box and are moving on from this war.
[00:29:08] Right?
[00:29:09] They're like, okay, we tried that in 2020, 2021.
[00:29:13] Didn't really work out for us.
[00:29:15] We're just going to leave that.
[00:29:17] It is again, like talent falls off during layoffs.
[00:29:20] So just diaper the equity inclusion goes right by the wayside because they just unless they can prove it again data tell people at the time prove it in the data that they can prove that this worked and did something.
[00:29:33] It will stay.
[00:29:34] But if you can't prove the business case for it, you're going to lose the war every time.
[00:29:39] Is that the one thing that you would any TA or HR professional listen to the podcast right now?
[00:29:45] If they walked away, what would that one takeaway be from Desiree?
[00:29:51] Dig into the data. Get the data.
[00:29:54] Another one.
[00:29:55] Be about the data.
[00:29:57] That's my favorite.
[00:29:58] Be about the data.
[00:29:59] Be about the data.
[00:30:00] Be the data.
[00:30:01] Be about the data.
[00:30:02] Be the data.
[00:30:03] Become the data.
[00:30:05] All right, Desiree.
[00:30:07] We appreciate you stopping by.
[00:30:09] If somebody wants to connect with you, where would you actually send them?
[00:30:13] I would send them to LinkedIn.
[00:30:15] It's my favorite.
[00:30:16] I spend a ton of time there guys.
[00:30:18] Come check me out.
[00:30:19] I'm always glad to connect.
[00:30:21] LinkedIn is our favorite.
[00:30:22] How do we not dig into that?
[00:30:24] Maybe there's another show in there somewhere.
[00:30:26] Chad, that is another one in the can.
[00:30:29] We out.
[00:30:30] We out.
[00:30:31] Thank you for listening to what's it called?
[00:30:38] A podcast.
[00:30:39] The Chad, the cheese.
[00:30:41] Brilliant.
[00:30:42] They talk about recruiting.
[00:30:44] They talk about technology.
[00:30:46] But most of all they talk about nothing.
[00:30:48] Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know.
[00:30:52] And yet you're listening.
[00:30:53] It's incredible.
[00:30:54] And not one word about cheese.
[00:30:57] Not one cheddar.
[00:30:59] Blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss.
[00:31:02] So many cheeses and not one word.
[00:31:06] So weird.
[00:31:07] Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
[00:31:16] That way you won't miss an episode.
[00:31:19] And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com.
[00:31:25] Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese.
[00:31:29] So weird.
[00:31:31] We out.
[00:32:01] And that's it.
[00:32:02] We hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:32:04] If you did, please leave a comment below and we'll see you next time.