Recruiting with Grit and Wit with Michael Goldberg

[00:00:00] Yo Chad, what if I told you there's a platform that could completely revolutionize your

[00:00:06] hiring strategy in a matter of hours?

[00:00:10] Yeah, I'd call a bullshit.

[00:00:11] Well, it's not bullshit with AI for jobs powered by our friends at this way global.

[00:00:17] Okay, I'm listening.

[00:00:19] Well, everyone else is fishing in the same old talent pools.

[00:00:22] AI for jobs can source over 160 million diverse candidate profiles.

[00:00:29] This way global has established unique partnerships with over 8,500 trusted diversity partners.

[00:00:36] So wait a minute.

[00:00:37] All of the hard on the groundwork is already done.

[00:00:40] That's right cowboy.

[00:00:41] You can discover 300 qualified candidates per job rack instantly.

[00:00:46] It's like having a candidate sourcing magic wand.

[00:00:49] Dude, if you had a magic wand, you would have Mexican pizzas all day.

[00:00:57] Job distracting me so, Ash.

[00:00:59] AI for jobs advanced matching algorithm analyzes past applicants using trillions of historical

[00:01:05] matching events in over 1,600 data points.

[00:01:09] Now that is what AI should be doing, saving recruiters time on sourcing while they provide

[00:01:15] a white glove candidate experience.

[00:01:18] Let's wrap this shit up.

[00:01:19] I'm hungry.

[00:01:20] Listen up kids.

[00:01:52] We're recruiting industry right where else complete with breaking news, brush opinion

[00:01:57] and loads of sirens.

[00:01:59] Bottle up boys and girls.

[00:02:00] It's on for the chat and cheese podcast.

[00:02:03] Oh yeah, what's up everybody?

[00:02:08] It's Marshall Mathers favorite podcast, aka the chat in cheese podcast.

[00:02:12] I'm your co-host Joel Cheezman joined us always the film at Tamilawees.

[00:02:16] Chad Soosh is in the house and we are recording live from TA Week, the qualified booth and

[00:02:22] we are with Michael Goldberg, senior director of TA in sourcing at US anal care.

[00:02:27] Do I get that right?

[00:02:28] Still not right it is US renal care.

[00:02:30] Renal care.

[00:02:31] Renal care.

[00:02:32] Renal anal.

[00:02:33] Well there's a difference.

[00:02:34] Joel projects a lot.

[00:02:36] Let's just say that.

[00:02:37] I'm stuck in dark places.

[00:02:38] That's all right.

[00:02:39] That's all right.

[00:02:40] No.

[00:02:41] US renal care is in the scheme of things.

[00:02:44] The third largest set of dialysis clinics for a billion dollar company.

[00:02:48] Wow.

[00:02:49] I get it.

[00:02:50] You're saving lies and I'm an asshole for making a joke.

[00:02:52] I get it.

[00:02:53] I get it.

[00:02:54] Everybody knows that anyway.

[00:02:55] That's why they list grandfather died of diabetes four days after my parents got married.

[00:02:58] Stick the knife in.

[00:02:59] No, it's called the Jewish guilt trip.

[00:03:01] Oh, okay.

[00:03:02] That's what that was.

[00:03:03] Let's pivot off the guilt trips first.

[00:03:04] I guess some of our listeners don't know you.

[00:03:06] What?

[00:03:07] Let's give them the elevator pitch.

[00:03:08] All right.

[00:03:09] So my name is Michael Goldberg and I have been in the recruiting space for let's just say

[00:03:13] 20 plus years, 10 years of HR behind that.

[00:03:17] Hello.

[00:03:18] Is to go into organizations, either mostly full time.

[00:03:21] But I've also done contract where I go in and I turn non producers into producers.

[00:03:28] I find technology for companies to make them better faster, more productive.

[00:03:33] And then finally I measure do a lot of data analytics for the companies that that I've

[00:03:37] done that I've worked for.

[00:03:40] And so yes, so I mean I believe I bring a lot of tools to the table and you guys always

[00:03:46] share great stuff on your podcast and not saying that just to kiss a four.

[00:03:50] Yes, no, it's true.

[00:03:51] It's true.

[00:03:52] I mean you guys make it real besides the animal.

[00:03:54] You guys make it more real because it's, you know, it's animal.

[00:03:57] Is he still?

[00:03:58] Yeah.

[00:03:59] Is he still going?

[00:04:00] No, yeah.

[00:04:01] Really?

[00:04:02] And Toronto not incarcerated yet.

[00:04:03] Not yet.

[00:04:04] No, it's inter-runtal.

[00:04:05] So what brings you to TA week is this your first TA week?

[00:04:07] How many times have you been here?

[00:04:09] So I have this my first time live in San Diego.

[00:04:11] Okay.

[00:04:12] And I was, I just, I finished up my keynote speaker about how to go from good, being a good

[00:04:17] recruiter to a great recruiter and not relying on AI to do your job for you.

[00:04:23] But what you need to be doing productively, being curious, being gritty, knowing your business,

[00:04:29] knowing the financial acumen of your business, being able to talk that business.

[00:04:32] And then finally manage your ex with a sense of urgency and quit giving up so easily just

[00:04:38] because you can't find them on indeed or linked in.

[00:04:41] Pretty soon they're going to get kicked off LinkedIn because it's going to be too.

[00:04:43] That is to speak damned expensive.

[00:04:45] Now, quick question though, because you're talking about using technology to not get lazy

[00:04:50] but to do your job more super-handedly.

[00:04:53] Effectively, more pretty, I think productivity is probably the better word.

[00:04:56] Right.

[00:04:57] So that's what AI does for me is it helps me to get the thinking of ideas.

[00:05:01] And then there's something, I don't know if you guys have tried this out, but I'd strongly recommend it.

[00:05:05] I'm not getting paid to say this, but it's called EQ buddy.

[00:05:08] It's new is a deal no Marcus Sawyer in the recruiting space was a sorcerer lives in California.

[00:05:14] He created an AI tool just for recruiting and I'm starting to play around with it.

[00:05:18] It actually produces some pretty good information.

[00:05:20] So question because everybody's talking about or at least we've had people talk about recruiters

[00:05:25] jobs going to be gone.

[00:05:26] This is all going to be pro.

[00:05:28] This is going to be processed out.

[00:05:30] Everything's going to be done through not just AI, but through better processes,

[00:05:34] technology, it's so on so forth.

[00:05:36] What say you Michael Goldberg?

[00:05:38] AI will not replace people.

[00:05:40] AI is a tool to help recruiters and recruiting leaders and social, I guess,

[00:05:45] employer, brand folks, be more productive in the cut out some of the let me reinvent the wheel.

[00:05:50] Right because that's what everybody says.

[00:05:52] Well, I want to come up the best thing.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:54] And so they're going to try to use AI to give them the information

[00:05:57] and make them look like a superstar.

[00:05:59] And I say people can see through that BS which you shouldn't be using it for.

[00:06:02] And I have a feeling that people are using it for is to make human decisions like to decide on candidates

[00:06:07] putting your the resume in two resumes and say pick the better candidate.

[00:06:11] But we've had platforms out there that have done that for years.

[00:06:14] We've had applicant tracking systems that have scoring.

[00:06:16] This is before the quote unquote AI revolution that's been happening, right?

[00:06:20] So this isn't new Michael.

[00:06:22] We've been trying to do this shit for years.

[00:06:25] So what makes this different because again, we've been ranking candidates wrong or right.

[00:06:31] For years.

[00:06:32] How is this any different?

[00:06:33] It's different in that again, it's about productivity.

[00:06:37] And I think it's able to pull information faster.

[00:06:40] Where back in the day when we were you know, we put a you know a or b or c or no or yes or no.

[00:06:46] We'd write those on not on the resumes but somewhere.

[00:06:49] Yeah.

[00:06:50] Where you knew who to pick.

[00:06:51] I mean, what 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

[00:06:54] Now AI is I think you leave resumes out of it.

[00:06:58] And it's just, hey, give me the latest BLS stats from XYZ.

[00:07:03] If I need to compare something to my data if I need a national.

[00:07:07] And that's what I think it's for.

[00:07:09] It just to me it brings it up faster but you know, you have to you take the data for what it is.

[00:07:14] And I still think there's some human brain work that you have to do.

[00:07:18] We can't let me push back on that a little bit because I buy into the statement of AI won't take your job.

[00:07:23] But someone who understands AI will take your job.

[00:07:26] Layoffs are happening.

[00:07:28] Companies are doing more with less.

[00:07:30] And if we have more Robo recruiters, if you will, cyborg recruiters don't we need less recruiters?

[00:07:36] I understand the recruiting professional be around but don't you need less of them?

[00:07:39] Are we going to bring back all the unemployed recruiters back to recruiting?

[00:07:43] I'm worried for the people that are looking right now because you're right.

[00:07:47] I think that there will be some form of Robo.

[00:07:51] Some tool invented recruiters.

[00:07:53] Yeah.

[00:07:54] Whatever it is right there out there already.

[00:07:56] There are platforms out there now that are talking about being able to at least cut the recruiter job around 80%.

[00:08:04] Well, we're here in the qualify booth or humanly or you know,

[00:08:08] you're able to ask quite online questions by using your phone.

[00:08:11] Yeah.

[00:08:12] And to me yes, that replaces things but to me what I don't think is going to go away as the conversations

[00:08:18] that recruiters need to have with candidates to get specific questions because I know of an interesting thing that

[00:08:24] I'm not going to talk about who but where somebody did an interview and it was an AI chatbot.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:31] The candidate was the AI chatbot.

[00:08:33] Yeah.

[00:08:34] It was able to hack into the system record the system.

[00:08:36] Yes.

[00:08:37] So yeah, it's going to happen on both sides.

[00:08:38] Yes, there will be less recruiters doing the work.

[00:08:40] Okay.

[00:08:41] But I still believe that the good ones that are that are work,

[00:08:45] the ones that are working and no disrespect to the people that aren't working,

[00:08:49] but AI will take those retail jobs fast food jobs, nurses, social workers,

[00:08:56] dietitians which are in our world.

[00:08:57] I.T. people.

[00:08:58] I don't think it will.

[00:09:00] I don't think it will replace those people.

[00:09:02] I think you're better off using a bot to help you recruit where you always like for Christmas or holiday time recruiting.

[00:09:08] I think that's where it's going to work.

[00:09:10] So the cream will rise in your in your future.

[00:09:13] And if you're just some hack, take a notes and phone calls your life is short in this profession.

[00:09:20] I believe that is that a good summary.

[00:09:21] That's a great summary.

[00:09:23] So in today's landscape, when you talk about building great recruiters, right?

[00:09:28] What is that number one priority that a great recruiter needs to focus on, right?

[00:09:34] On tasks or whatever it is, what do they need to focus on first?

[00:09:38] Tantably.

[00:09:39] Yes.

[00:09:40] To me in my world, what I always try to do is I want my recruiters working on the positions that have been open the longest.

[00:09:48] And there is still a need to recruit because we ask, well, say, hey, do you still, the recruiter will say, do you still need the job?

[00:09:53] Yes, we do.

[00:09:54] So if I see a position that is more than 60 days old, I'm on my recruiters, make saying this is a priority.

[00:10:00] You need to fill at least half of them.

[00:10:02] I did that two weeks ago where I've got, I had a couple of people that had 11, 12 positions that have been open on average out, you know, 120 plus days.

[00:10:11] One of my recruiters, shout out Natasha, filled eight of those 11 jobs in two weeks because she knew what she had to do.

[00:10:19] She made it a priority.

[00:10:20] She went out and sourced.

[00:10:22] She used her curiosity to build search strings and bring people in.

[00:10:26] She didn't wait around for them to apply.

[00:10:28] And that's the other thing.

[00:10:29] If their recruiters are still waiting for people to apply, no, not going to be around anymore.

[00:10:35] And that's not good for job boards.

[00:10:37] No, it's not.

[00:10:38] Okay.

[00:10:39] No, it is not.

[00:10:40] So let's talk about sourcing for something.

[00:10:42] Things are where they're sourcing.

[00:10:43] They could be sourcing from job boards.

[00:10:45] Indeed.

[00:10:46] They could be sourcing from...

[00:10:47] I see what you did there with the Indian.

[00:10:48] LinkedIn.

[00:10:49] Like that.

[00:10:50] Leading the witness.

[00:10:51] Let's talk about sourcing real quick.

[00:10:52] The Indian by all accounts is putting a stranglehold, a wall garden, a huge moat to kill the competition, funnel people into its platform sort of exclusively.

[00:11:02] They're redacting certain things now.

[00:11:04] It's becoming harder to source.

[00:11:06] And my contention is the freaks and geeks of the sourcing world back in O5 right?

[00:11:10] The shout out is the steed.

[00:11:11] You know, the group I'm talking about.

[00:11:13] They were sort of pushed in the background when all the sourcing tools came out.

[00:11:17] The higher tools, the hiring solved.

[00:11:19] Now that LinkedIn has sufficiently strangled those businesses to death, are we going to see a rise of the sourcing?

[00:11:24] You said Boolean Strangs, which kind of...

[00:11:26] It's all in school.

[00:11:27] ...got my attention.

[00:11:28] Are we going to go back to the future with sourcing and the freaks and geeks are going to kind of take over that world again?

[00:11:34] That's a great question.

[00:11:35] I don't know.

[00:11:36] I think there's a possibility of that.

[00:11:38] But there's still a lot of information out there.

[00:11:41] There's still so many tools out there that you don't have to rely on LinkedIn.

[00:11:46] But we do.

[00:11:47] Certain do.

[00:11:48] Do you know what Steve Levy calls it?

[00:11:50] It's the oxy cotton for recruiters.

[00:11:52] No, I totally get it.

[00:11:53] It's terrible.

[00:11:54] Terrible reference.

[00:11:55] It's a heroin drink.

[00:11:56] It is totally a drink.

[00:11:57] Yes.

[00:11:58] And so I think you will have...

[00:12:01] It'll force recruiters and sources to start picking up the phone more.

[00:12:04] Yeah.

[00:12:05] And try it once because now that we can find that contact information,

[00:12:08] I know LinkedIn's going to allegedly squeeze out the fact that they're not going to be able to share their data or sell their...

[00:12:14] They're going to work with Seek Out or Hyre EZ.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] And so there will be somebody else that comes around and work around and says,

[00:12:20] let me pull more information from different sources other than LinkedIn because in my world...

[00:12:25] Well, there's no incentive to launch a company that does that.

[00:12:28] It's going to be the individual rogue smart recruiter that does it themselves.

[00:12:32] Okay, listener.

[00:12:35] How can you help your employees become more productive?

[00:12:39] I have answers.

[00:12:40] How about automating manual and repetitive tasks,

[00:12:44] giving meaning to data, then allowing that data to actually drive decisions?

[00:12:49] And how about matching people to your jobs quicker?

[00:12:53] Well, wait.

[00:12:54] The chat and cheese has a new LLM.

[00:12:57] No, cheeseman.

[00:12:58] I'm talking about text kernel.

[00:13:00] Ah, okay.

[00:13:02] That makes more sense.

[00:13:03] What I'm hearing is the groundbreaking concept of, wait for it.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:09] Simplicity.

[00:13:10] Seriously though.

[00:13:12] Text kernel cuts through the complexities like a tortilla chip through some hot nacho cheese.

[00:13:19] Oh my god.

[00:13:20] Really?

[00:13:21] Nacho references already.

[00:13:22] Anyways, text kernel brings efficiency and productivity to your operations.

[00:13:26] Text kernel seamlessly unifies your tools and data to drive efficiencies and success.

[00:13:33] Text kernel is creating new opportunities for your recruitment journey.

[00:13:39] Kind of like adding guac to my barbacoa burrito.

[00:13:42] Oh my god.

[00:13:43] How about extracting meaningful insights from data?

[00:13:46] I mean, that's something.

[00:13:48] Swifty matching people with jobs, automating repetitive tasks.

[00:13:53] Who knew such advanced concepts were even possible in the land of human resources?

[00:14:00] We did, Chad.

[00:14:02] We did.

[00:14:03] Dude, wrap it up.

[00:14:04] I'm a little hungry.

[00:14:05] Imagine that.

[00:14:07] Okay, listener.

[00:14:08] Get ready to use today's tech to drive efficiencies and productivity.

[00:14:12] Visit text kernel.com.

[00:14:14] That's T-E-X-T-K-E-R-N-E-L dot com.

[00:14:20] Mmm.

[00:14:21] Nachos.

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[00:15:17] No one's going to launch another seek out anytime soon.

[00:15:19] No one's going to launch another competitor because they've seen what happened.

[00:15:22] True true.

[00:15:23] It's going to be the individual that's smart enough to figure out how to leverage Google or leverage these new search engines

[00:15:29] or chat GPT or whatever to get to the best candidates.

[00:15:32] Well, I mean, yeah, and I mean you look at what is Microsoft's new GPT?

[00:15:38] I think it's connected to chat GPT.

[00:15:40] Copilot or copilot.

[00:15:41] Yeah, I don't have y'all played around with that.

[00:15:43] It's actually kind of cool.

[00:15:44] I mean, I'm just starting to get it but Bing, someone said add Bing to your phone.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] And you can get more information on Bing than you can on Google with the use of copilot because it's smarter than what chat GPT is doing.

[00:15:57] And there's a new search engine.

[00:15:59] Forgetting in the name, I'm basso.

[00:16:01] It's just gave it a lot of money.

[00:16:02] Oh cloud perplexity or anyway, so there will be search engines.

[00:16:07] We'll be see a resurgence in the days where altavista and ask jives and there's all these different search engines that can find people.

[00:16:14] Time will tell but Google is going to get a little bit of competition I think in the near future.

[00:16:19] Absolutely, you know here's my thing.

[00:16:21] Indeed and linked in their finite sets of information.

[00:16:26] You can find twice as much information by just going to Bing, going to you know this new basso thing which I have never heard of but I will definitely take a look at it.

[00:16:36] But also start looking at chat GPT like the drop down and it gives you all these different choices.

[00:16:42] You can do copilot creation.

[00:16:44] You can do SEO generation the whole nine yards.

[00:16:47] That's what we need to be using AI for to help us stand out and to help us find the right types of people.

[00:16:54] Because if I can put a profile together and I know who I want to hire, I can use something like an AI tool to help me come up with the basics.

[00:17:03] But then I got to use this to get there and I got to use head listeners by the way.

[00:17:08] Sorry, I thought we were on camera.

[00:17:09] Oh, we're on all the mediums baby.

[00:17:11] We're on every day.

[00:17:12] I'm pointing to my head but use your brain and use your heart because you have to give a shit.

[00:17:16] You have to care.

[00:17:17] And that's the one thing that I think is missing from recruits these days.

[00:17:20] It's just like all right, I'm going to go fill positions.

[00:17:22] That's it.

[00:17:23] Now, I'm old school so I can say that.

[00:17:25] But I don't mind picking up the phone.

[00:17:27] I don't mind.

[00:17:28] I don't use LinkedIn to do my sourcing.

[00:17:30] I use higher easy obviously because we have the tool and I want to be an example for my team to use it.

[00:17:35] They're not using it enough.

[00:17:37] They need to before that limit is squeezed.

[00:17:40] Yes.

[00:17:41] Well, I mean, but it's going to get squeezed big time.

[00:17:43] It's going to get.

[00:17:44] We just don't know the timing of it.

[00:17:45] Right.

[00:17:46] So back to LinkedIn.

[00:17:47] And this is very anti-competitive practice from a company that's owned by Microsoft.

[00:17:54] Who is the last organization that was hit by, you know, anti-trust.

[00:17:59] Right.

[00:18:00] So I guess the question is as a company, not another vendor because seek out and I mean they have reasons.

[00:18:06] As a company, a hiring company, what would your words be to LinkedIn at this point?

[00:18:12] Because you spend money on it.

[00:18:13] I do.

[00:18:14] Don't do what you're threatening to do.

[00:18:16] It's not good for business.

[00:18:18] It's a pure monopoly.

[00:18:19] You will have the antitrust law people all over you.

[00:18:22] I just think LinkedIn is shooting themselves basically in the chat.

[00:18:26] Do you think other practitioners will actually step up and say the exact same thing because over the years we've seen this stupid shit happen left and right?

[00:18:34] I mean, during high Q that the actual case against high Q, nobody wanted to be made public that they were behind high Q.

[00:18:42] Right.

[00:18:43] Now we're here because of that case and LinkedIn winning, right?

[00:18:48] Right.

[00:18:49] Are we finally going to get HR practitioners to get out of the goddamn corner and stand up and start to say this is wrong.

[00:18:56] This is bullshit.

[00:18:57] Absolutely.

[00:18:58] Essentially I was talking with Jerry Christman.

[00:19:00] Uh huh.

[00:19:01] You guys, I don't know if he's coming by but he's getting through career crossroads.

[00:19:04] He's getting a set of, I think he said 30, right, 30 TA leaders.

[00:19:08] And he's talking to him next week about this very thing because they're all freaking out.

[00:19:11] I'm not freaking out because it hadn't happened yet.

[00:19:13] There's nothing I can do but you know what?

[00:19:15] We're going to have to be better at what we do in order to get over that hump.

[00:19:19] So what I would just implore LinkedIn is don't do that to everybody because everybody's on oxy cotton and they rely on your tool and you'll still, yes, you can make more money.

[00:19:29] Maybe you're trying to get to four to six trillion dollars.

[00:19:32] But Jesus, how much money do you really need?

[00:19:35] How many yachts can you ski behind?

[00:19:37] Thank you very much.

[00:19:38] Michael, I want to go but I loved your comment about the heart.

[00:19:41] And I think you know so many recruiters rely on technology and it's a it's a churn and burn game.

[00:19:47] You also probably know that we're very popular with the young people.

[00:19:50] Michael.

[00:19:51] No, I'm very, I'm very popular.

[00:19:52] A lot of young recruiters are so tech focused and not the heart focus which is based on your comment.

[00:19:59] What advice would you give a young recruiter coming up to not just focus on tech but the heart?

[00:20:04] Why is that important?

[00:20:05] The heart is important because the heart shows that you care.

[00:20:08] So like I mentioned in my my presentation, I start with Mary out making six, 50 an hour right and it taught me to have heart to care for people to take care of people

[00:20:18] because I didn't want my name on a comment card going like what did you do?

[00:20:22] Goldberg hell, I was even because I went out of the way for somebody that I worked in Bethesda at the Mary out near the Mormon church that it's the only Mary out that Bill Mary out in his family owns

[00:20:32] on Pukesville Road go visit it's an old hotel this pastor of the Mormon church comes in says I was just an terrible accent but I sent him at a heart and I sent him cookies because they don't drink so I sent him cookies and I sent them some flowers to him and his family and I said I hope

[00:20:49] I hope to know how it's better. He put this nice Jewish young man into his sermon in front of the entire Mormon church.

[00:20:55] It's because I care and I think if you care about the people you're recruiting and you're not you know crapping on candidate experience and you're checking in with them and you're communicating with your hiring managers.

[00:21:06] That's that's your heart saying I really care about what I do every day.

[00:21:11] The technology again is just a tool and it makes your job easier but I don't think recruiting is as easy as everybody thinks it is.

[00:21:18] I mean how many times if you all have people young folks come up to you and said what do you think should I get into recruiting I'm like not if you don't have the heart for it there's going to be beaten up it's most thankfulest job.

[00:21:28] God damn I love waking up every day and there's nothing that gives me pure emotional satisfaction that when I offer a job to somebody.

[00:21:37] Yeah, the here in their voice of joy.

[00:21:40] Yeah, that's my caffeine I drink coffee but that's my caffeine every time there it is kids we're talking about have a heart for God's X any talking to you.

[00:21:49] She's been this is Michael Goldberg Michael if somebody wants to connect with you where would you send them I would send them to LinkedIn I would but since you won't be able to find me on LinkedIn you can connect me.

[00:22:02] It's been canceled.

[00:22:04] It's I've been canceled the best way is to reach out my goalberg at us renal care dot com feel free to email me any folks looking I don't know of any jobs but I'm happy to help you network happy to help you kind of think about what you want to do next because the man with the heart can

[00:22:21] who cares who works for us renal care.

[00:22:24] Thank you all Jason.

[00:22:25] Oh, the ironing.

[00:22:26] Chad that is another one in the can we are live from TA Week in the qualified booth thank you we out.

[00:22:33] Thank you for listening to what's it called a podcast the chat the cheese brand they talk about recruiting they talk about technology but most of all they talk about nothing just a lot of shout outs

[00:22:49] of people you don't even know and yet you're listening it's incredible and not one word about cheese not one cheddar blue not show pepper jack Swiss so many cheeses and not one word so weird.

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