400: Ambition, Love & Tennis! A Conversation about Luca Guadagnino's "Challengers". (With Ryan McQuade, AwardsWatch)

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[00:00:38] Hey everyone, welcome to Pop Culture Confidential

[00:00:41] I'm Christina Yerling-Birod

[00:00:43] Steamy intrigue and ambition

[00:00:46] No, I'm not describing my guest executive editor

[00:00:49] Ryan McQuaid of Awards Watch

[00:00:51] Even though I probably could

[00:00:53] Rather, Luca Guadagnino's movie Challengers

[00:00:56] starring Zendaya, Mike Feist and Joshua Conner

[00:01:00] battling it out on and off the tennis court

[00:01:03] But Ryan is here to help me discuss all this

[00:01:06] because there is so much to unpack

[00:01:08] How are you with the tennis racket?

[00:01:10] Everything sounds like innuendo

[00:01:12] and we're talking about this dude

[00:01:14] That's the thing, we did our Awards Watch show

[00:01:17] the other day and we talked about this movie

[00:01:20] and there was no way not to do innuendo at all

[00:01:23] or just get like violently inappropriate

[00:01:26] which I mean if you know the Awards Watch team

[00:01:30] this is a movie right up our alley

[00:01:32] so it makes total sense that we would go into the camp

[00:01:35] but yeah, I mean how am I with the tennis racket?

[00:01:38] I'm sub par with tennis

[00:01:42] like it's not the sport that

[00:01:44] I mean I love watching it

[00:01:46] and I love playing it

[00:01:48] but if you and just like as a back and forth

[00:01:51] but if you make me get competitive

[00:01:53] which is a terrible thing because as Christina knows

[00:01:55] I can be very competitive

[00:01:57] I will lose easily

[00:02:00] like I remember during college

[00:02:04] and we played like just a friend of mine

[00:02:07] needed another person in a doubles tournament

[00:02:10] I was like yeah, I'll do it for you buddy

[00:02:13] and I was so bad

[00:02:16] I was like I will buy all the drinks tonight

[00:02:19] I will make up for this one way or another

[00:02:22] so how are you actually with the tennis racket?

[00:02:26] Are you pretty good at it?

[00:02:28] I'm just like not

[00:02:30] I've been in dark movie theaters all my life

[00:02:33] in terms of any sports you wouldn't want to have me

[00:02:36] as your doubles partner

[00:02:38] although I think it's really fun to watch

[00:02:40] it's one of my favorite spectators

[00:02:43] and you know it's one of those where

[00:02:45] where my wife she was like before

[00:02:47] but you know as we were starting to date

[00:02:49] and everything years ago

[00:02:51] she was like how can there were two sports

[00:02:53] she was just like how can you watch

[00:02:55] that and think that it's compelling or entertaining

[00:02:59] one of them was tennis the other one was golf

[00:03:02] and I said well you got to understand

[00:03:04] like if you watch Roger Federer

[00:03:06] or Madal or the William sisters

[00:03:09] then you'll understand

[00:03:11] if you're just watching two amateurs

[00:03:13] or regular people playing it's

[00:03:15] I mean it can be good

[00:03:17] don't get me wrong but like there's just something about watching

[00:03:20] great tennis to coin Tashi's

[00:03:22] and everyone from you know

[00:03:24] McEnroe to Boyer to Srinash Srinash

[00:03:26] and Samperess yes

[00:03:28] like you know

[00:03:30] it's also such an individual sport

[00:03:32] the style

[00:03:34] the style of the spectators

[00:03:36] in the stands

[00:03:38] I mean everything about it is intriguing

[00:03:40] so it's I like the sport

[00:03:42] but you would not want to have me as your partner

[00:03:44] I think the same

[00:03:46] I haven't picked up a racket maybe

[00:03:48] in like 10 years

[00:03:50] but I've watched enough tennis

[00:03:52] I think tennis movies are really

[00:03:54] fun to watch

[00:03:56] and

[00:03:58] they should make more of them because they are

[00:04:01] great movies for

[00:04:03] power dynamics and intrigue

[00:04:05] and in case of this movie

[00:04:07] they can be really

[00:04:09] really sexy at the same time too

[00:04:11] thank you so much for joining me for this

[00:04:13] it's so fun to have you here

[00:04:15] so the movie's been out this weekend

[00:04:17] so hopefully you guys have seen it

[00:04:19] because we're going to just go crazy

[00:04:21] with spoilers if we need to

[00:04:23] but let's start tell me a little bit about

[00:04:25] your thoughts

[00:04:27] in the plot of the movie

[00:04:29] yeah I mean this movie

[00:04:31] was delayed because of

[00:04:33] the writers and the

[00:04:35] actor strike

[00:04:37] and it was supposed to come out last year

[00:04:39] and I mean

[00:04:41] Eric and I

[00:04:43] felt pretty good about maybe that you and I

[00:04:45] and the rest of us would have probably

[00:04:47] seen a Venice

[00:04:49] to tell you right situation

[00:04:51] maybe but it didn't happen and

[00:04:53] they kind of just went off

[00:04:55] the fact that they're

[00:04:57] using Zendaya all in the marketing because

[00:04:59] of her stardom

[00:05:01] and also just off of the success of Dune 2

[00:05:03] that she's had this year

[00:05:05] and while the marketing she's doing for the clothes

[00:05:07] on the red carpet

[00:05:09] every tennis theme thing

[00:05:11] I mean I'm so happy that they waited

[00:05:13] for post strike

[00:05:15] I mean to be fair she is

[00:05:17] the awards watch team

[00:05:19] we did a

[00:05:21] movie star sort of like

[00:05:23] stock game

[00:05:25] and last year

[00:05:27] and I think we held her stock

[00:05:29] quote unquote movie star as a person that

[00:05:31] not necessarily could open a movie

[00:05:33] because I think we can

[00:05:35] I can safely say she can open a movie

[00:05:37] and she did with this one because this was the number one movie at the box office

[00:05:39] it's about

[00:05:41] does she have that

[00:05:43] movie star

[00:05:45] thing that will gravitate us to

[00:05:47] if she's in a project

[00:05:49] I gotta see it. It's a must see thing

[00:05:51] you know it's kind of what

[00:05:53] we had running for such a long time

[00:05:55] with various

[00:05:57] leading actresses that were quote unquote

[00:05:59] considered maybe America sweetheart or that were just

[00:06:01] bankable

[00:06:03] and put in pretty much any kind of film

[00:06:05] and for the most part she's done

[00:06:07] I mean she's done Euphoria

[00:06:09] which is outside of probably

[00:06:11] anything that those other actresses ever did

[00:06:13] and she's one to Emmys

[00:06:15] but that's still an ensemble piece

[00:06:17] and even though she's the lead

[00:06:19] and then for her movies

[00:06:21] she's done bit parts

[00:06:23] in Spider-Man movies and

[00:06:25] very small I would say

[00:06:27] supporting roles in these Dune

[00:06:29] movies in the large scope of those

[00:06:31] movies and so I think that this

[00:06:33] and she's did like Malcolm and Marie but like

[00:06:35] I don't want to talk about Malcolm and Marie

[00:06:37] nobody should

[00:06:39] she's not the problem with that movie though

[00:06:41] but we can move on

[00:06:43] it's called the screenplay

[00:06:45] but

[00:06:47] this felt like

[00:06:49] at the time in which we did that episode

[00:06:51] last year

[00:06:53] this was the movie to pinpoint

[00:06:55] where we could be at with

[00:06:57] Zendaya as the movie star

[00:06:59] as the person that

[00:07:01] is the first build person

[00:07:03] on the marquee

[00:07:05] and I think for the most part as she also produced

[00:07:07] this film as well with Sony

[00:07:09] and Luca

[00:07:11] she does a really great job

[00:07:13] and it's very good and this is a very different character

[00:07:15] than anything you've seen her play before

[00:07:17] this is a different character than we've seen

[00:07:19] Mike Feist or Josh O'Connor play before

[00:07:21] too and I think that

[00:07:23] I had certain

[00:07:25] expectations because I think Luca Guadagnino

[00:07:27] is

[00:07:29] a pretty reliable

[00:07:31] dare I say

[00:07:33] becoming one of my favorite

[00:07:35] living directors because he

[00:07:37] does things unconventionally

[00:07:39] and always keeps you

[00:07:41] guessing right you think you're gonna

[00:07:43] oh how do you follow up

[00:07:45] you know a bigger

[00:07:47] well you do call me by your name

[00:07:49] how do you follow up the

[00:07:51] call me by your name this coming of age

[00:07:53] a

[00:07:55] queer story love story

[00:07:57] will you do a remake of Suspiria

[00:07:59] well how do you follow up Suspiria

[00:08:01] well you do bones

[00:08:03] and

[00:08:05] it's kind of the mild of those two

[00:08:07] and then how do you follow that up

[00:08:09] with a bloody bone crunching

[00:08:11] experience well then you follow it up

[00:08:13] with one of the sexiest

[00:08:15] movies to come out of the last couple

[00:08:17] years and

[00:08:19] you have this

[00:08:21] massive immersive experience

[00:08:23] with

[00:08:25] I think him at the height

[00:08:27] of his powers this is like

[00:08:29] I feel like Guadagnino going

[00:08:31] full

[00:08:33] just like insane mode throwing

[00:08:35] everything at the kitchen sink

[00:08:37] it's a 55 million dollar budget

[00:08:39] film and you feel

[00:08:41] all his decisions just being kind of thrown

[00:08:43] in there Amy Pascal the producer

[00:08:45] and Zendaya talked about they wanted to

[00:08:47] find a director with a singular vision

[00:08:49] to make this movie and

[00:08:51] they got one because

[00:08:53] I think the tennis sequences in this

[00:08:55] movie are absolutely

[00:08:57] extraordinary some of the best directed

[00:08:59] sequences and

[00:09:01] maybe any sports movie in the modern

[00:09:03] era in the last 25 years and definitely

[00:09:05] maybe just some of the best

[00:09:07] directed scenes period this year the editing

[00:09:09] the cinematography

[00:09:11] absolutely just

[00:09:13] essential pieces to this film

[00:09:15] the resner and Ross score

[00:09:17] is the fourth character of this

[00:09:19] movie the way in which

[00:09:21] that

[00:09:23] propulsive music

[00:09:25] is used as

[00:09:27] both inner and

[00:09:29] external uses

[00:09:31] throughout the film I find to be fascinating

[00:09:33] but then of course

[00:09:35] it just also comes down to these extremely

[00:09:37] flawed

[00:09:39] devilish

[00:09:41] performances

[00:09:43] and all three of them

[00:09:45] I think are

[00:09:47] fantastic and it might

[00:09:49] be all three of their best performances

[00:09:51] to date if not

[00:09:53] some of the best performer because O'Connor's had

[00:09:55] a ton of performances that I really do

[00:09:57] like he was he's in Alicia

[00:09:59] Rovark is film right now

[00:10:01] Lockheed Mara that's just being released

[00:10:03] that we saw

[00:10:05] at Telluride and

[00:10:07] and that's

[00:10:09] the polar opposite of Patrick in this movie so

[00:10:11] and

[00:10:13] everybody knows from one side story and I think him

[00:10:15] his art here is fantastic but no

[00:10:17] Zendaya is Tashi

[00:10:19] she's

[00:10:21] there's just the way she looks

[00:10:23] and her

[00:10:25] they say it says much more

[00:10:27] than

[00:10:29] these bumbling buffoon boys

[00:10:31] these little white boys

[00:10:33] they're the white ones

[00:10:35] good little white boys that

[00:10:37] they're the ones I was talking

[00:10:39] in order to get her

[00:10:41] career, her ambition

[00:10:43] she can't play around like those little spoiled

[00:10:45] white boys

[00:10:47] I want to mention that the screenwriter

[00:10:49] is Justin Kuritskis who is married

[00:10:51] to our favorite Celine

[00:10:53] song the writer of past lives

[00:10:55] so let's get into that

[00:10:57] after how these two have written these

[00:10:59] two films about

[00:11:01] three not three ways but

[00:11:03] triangle love triangles in a certain

[00:11:05] sense well three way

[00:11:07] there is a three way in this way so you're

[00:11:09] not really far from that

[00:11:11] before we get into that steamy

[00:11:13] stuff I just want to say also

[00:11:15] and echo what you're saying this is

[00:11:17] for me absolutely my favorite

[00:11:19] Luca film yet now

[00:11:21] I'm a sucker for his

[00:11:23] yeah I'm a sucker for his

[00:11:25] obvious metaphors be it peaches

[00:11:27] in call me by your name

[00:11:29] or churros or grunts

[00:11:31] on the tennis

[00:11:33] he's combined

[00:11:35] the two things that I really love the

[00:11:37] sexy beasts of a bigger splash

[00:11:39] and the longing

[00:11:41] and the love story

[00:11:43] and in call me by your name

[00:11:45] this is like that a coming

[00:11:47] of age film but with more

[00:11:49] coming another innuendo

[00:11:51] but you know what happens

[00:11:53] after you've come of age so to speak

[00:11:55] and that doesn't always end well

[00:11:57] I thought a lot about anatomy

[00:11:59] of a fall and what it means

[00:12:01] to have a relationship where

[00:12:03] you're not equal in ambition

[00:12:05] and I just love that we're exploring

[00:12:07] that in these movies and particularly

[00:12:09] that it's women who are

[00:12:11] exploring that in terms of their

[00:12:13] partners

[00:12:15] is a character that's so fascinating

[00:12:17] I love her but she's also really

[00:12:19] difficult and I love that Sundia

[00:12:21] wants to play this I mean this is someone

[00:12:23] whose ambition will go over

[00:12:25] everything

[00:12:27] my favorite character is Patrick

[00:12:29] he is just

[00:12:31] flirty and cocky

[00:12:33] and he's kind of like the

[00:12:35] Armie Hammer Oliver and call me by your name

[00:12:37] he comes into this group

[00:12:39] he's a little more wild and

[00:12:41] I have to ask you Ryan did you

[00:12:43] there's a shot at the beginning

[00:12:45] of the movie where he scratches

[00:12:47] his arm where he has

[00:12:49] was he saying that he was

[00:12:51] a hero in that? he has this big blue

[00:12:53] I don't know about that

[00:12:55] I mean I think that he's probably

[00:12:57] you know sometimes

[00:12:59] with these knowing a lot

[00:13:01] about athletes and

[00:13:03] reading about just

[00:13:05] how difficult the road can be

[00:13:07] there could be

[00:13:09] interpretations of that for sure

[00:13:11] I mean it does feel like

[00:13:13] when he comes to Stanford

[00:13:15] he seems like

[00:13:17] he is

[00:13:19] not necessarily high on anything but high

[00:13:21] definitely on his own

[00:13:23] he's high on his own supply

[00:13:25] because he's the one that gets to be successful

[00:13:27] while

[00:13:29] both are at Stanford

[00:13:31] and so

[00:13:33] I think that

[00:13:35] a downfall of that character

[00:13:37] and

[00:13:39] I don't believe that it would be maybe heroine

[00:13:41] I think it just you know

[00:13:43] you know

[00:13:45] because he probably wouldn't be able to qualify

[00:13:47] because I know that they do direct housing

[00:13:49] but it is about scars

[00:13:51] I mean it definitely could be about

[00:13:53] you know the scars that are left

[00:13:55] in the past because all this movie

[00:13:57] is doing

[00:13:59] is metaphor I mean this movie is going back and forth

[00:14:01] it's nonlinear structure

[00:14:03] and placing breadcrumbs in the past

[00:14:05] and even in the present

[00:14:07] to explain these characters

[00:14:09] and Eric

[00:14:11] on the awards watch show

[00:14:13] we talked about how if you read the script

[00:14:15] for this movie which is an excellent script

[00:14:17] the first

[00:14:19] page

[00:14:21] is just about

[00:14:23] who these characters are and you don't do that

[00:14:25] because it's up for the interpretation

[00:14:27] of the actors to be able to go and grab

[00:14:29] that or for Luca as the director

[00:14:31] coming in to be able to

[00:14:33] find those but

[00:14:35] Curtis had

[00:14:37] his own vision

[00:14:39] he collaborated extremely well with

[00:14:41] actors as well as with Luca because

[00:14:43] Luca came in from what I understand

[00:14:45] and put his own

[00:14:47] Luca specialties to

[00:14:49] this because I think a lot of

[00:14:51] the queer

[00:14:53] elements of this movie are Luca Quattidino

[00:14:55] and its finest I think also

[00:14:57] every the film techniques

[00:14:59] and being experimental

[00:15:01] being this Italian

[00:15:03] filmmaker using this

[00:15:05] using the resources

[00:15:07] that Sony gave him they wanted a visionary

[00:15:09] and they found it

[00:15:11] and

[00:15:13] I think that

[00:15:15] you mentioned anatomy of a fall

[00:15:17] we had that wonderful conversation last year

[00:15:19] if your listeners haven't listened to it

[00:15:21] they really should go back and listen to it because

[00:15:23] we talked a lot about marriages

[00:15:25] and power dynamics within marriages

[00:15:27] and how there's

[00:15:29] various different

[00:15:31] kinds of marriages

[00:15:33] and this one

[00:15:35] feels different than any of those last year

[00:15:37] but it feels very close to that one I guess

[00:15:39] the most but

[00:15:41] another layer added to it because from

[00:15:43] Tashi's perspective

[00:15:45] she is this prodigy

[00:15:47] who is

[00:15:49] I think the next Serena Williams

[00:15:51] and she's come from really

[00:15:53] nothing she's had to

[00:15:55] work hard she is a

[00:15:57] black American

[00:15:59] tennis player

[00:16:01] and the rules are different

[00:16:03] and female yes and the rules are different

[00:16:05] for her and her

[00:16:07] station than these two boys

[00:16:09] who come from privilege

[00:16:11] who aren't necessarily

[00:16:13] as talented they're better as a duo

[00:16:15] interesting enough than they are

[00:16:17] as as singles

[00:16:19] competitors

[00:16:21] and yet she has this injury

[00:16:23] that causes her to lose her career

[00:16:25] she shifts to being essentially art

[00:16:27] arts

[00:16:29] not only just her manager

[00:16:31] coach and manager

[00:16:33] but then her wife

[00:16:35] and you know

[00:16:37] his wife and they have a child together

[00:16:39] and everything

[00:16:41] by this point when you see in the future

[00:16:43] she has all the control

[00:16:45] of that relationship

[00:16:47] art will do anything that she says

[00:16:49] because he's kind of always wanted that

[00:16:51] weirdly enough without the tennis

[00:16:53] she's obsessed with the game

[00:16:55] he's obsessed with

[00:16:57] I think the American dream

[00:16:59] and the falsehood

[00:17:01] of that

[00:17:03] and the partnership and the commitment

[00:17:05] and all that and thinking that it is

[00:17:07] a partnership and that's not the case

[00:17:09] and I think that

[00:17:11] there's an interesting discussion

[00:17:13] about so many different things

[00:17:15] but when I think about their relationship

[00:17:17] I think about how

[00:17:19] obsessive

[00:17:21] art is and I think Mike Feist

[00:17:23] is the best in this film and I think

[00:17:25] the art character is fascinating

[00:17:27] and he's also the most dangerous

[00:17:29] more than Patrick because

[00:17:31] he's the one that instigates

[00:17:33] everything to what we see

[00:17:35] in the present and then he is

[00:17:37] content and almost

[00:17:39] submissive very much

[00:17:41] submissive to

[00:17:43] being this

[00:17:45] this just kind of

[00:17:47] traveler

[00:17:49] through a multi-million dollar

[00:17:51] career and being

[00:17:53] able to say that

[00:17:55] when he's done I'm done, we're done

[00:17:57] and she's not done with Tennis

[00:17:59] and I don't think she'll ever be done with Tennis

[00:18:01] it's part of her DNA

[00:18:03] and that's not the case

[00:18:05] for him and I think

[00:18:07] when he says that

[00:18:09] in the hotel room there and he says

[00:18:11] you're gonna be mad but

[00:18:13] I wanna quit. Yeah, but the way he like slides

[00:18:15] to her it's almost like

[00:18:17] he's a pet at times

[00:18:19] like a lap dog

[00:18:21] to her. But there you can see that she's like

[00:18:23] the disappointment in him

[00:18:25] and what this means

[00:18:27] for their union and what happens

[00:18:29] after that is a huge moment.

[00:18:31] Well there's no love. She looks

[00:18:33] at him and you can just see

[00:18:35] and there she's absolutely amazing

[00:18:37] you were saying how she looks

[00:18:39] there you can see every emotion of

[00:18:41] how am I gonna get

[00:18:43] through this, what am I gonna do

[00:18:45] a new plan is forming. Yeah.

[00:18:47] Just the non-verbal cues that she's

[00:18:49] giving throughout the film I was thinking

[00:18:51] back to I set this on the

[00:18:53] I'll say this and I'll expand on it too

[00:18:55] I was thinking a lot about

[00:18:57] Molly Burkhart and I was thinking a lot

[00:18:59] about

[00:19:01] Lily Gladstone's performance in there.

[00:19:03] That's a performance that is

[00:19:05] about also

[00:19:07] a woman suffering within

[00:19:09] the confines of her marriage

[00:19:11] and we talked about that a lot

[00:19:13] when that film came out

[00:19:15] about how the movie

[00:19:17] is seen

[00:19:19] through her perspective

[00:19:21] she may not have the dialogue

[00:19:23] but she has

[00:19:25] the silence

[00:19:27] that women

[00:19:29] in those sort of dynamics don't

[00:19:31] have to have because they don't have

[00:19:33] the power to speak

[00:19:35] in this case

[00:19:37] because she's not a professional tennis

[00:19:39] player she's just a manager

[00:19:41] she's essentially

[00:19:43] there is no

[00:19:45] love between them anymore it's all business

[00:19:47] and

[00:19:49] so people kind of know

[00:19:51] who's really running it

[00:19:53] but at the end of the day

[00:19:55] he's the one getting the autographs

[00:19:57] he's the one on the billboards

[00:19:59] but she's also so much better than him

[00:20:01] yes she is

[00:20:03] oh she's better at him as a tennis player

[00:20:05] as a business

[00:20:07] as a business woman

[00:20:09] you know everything she

[00:20:11] she is a goal oriented

[00:20:13] individual she is I mean she's

[00:20:15] she takes all the energy

[00:20:17] of

[00:20:19] being a prodigy

[00:20:21] and puts it into this man

[00:20:23] and this man is deciding when

[00:20:25] he wants to throw away her dream

[00:20:27] and especially

[00:20:29] this white man

[00:20:31] who

[00:20:33] as I watched the film I was like

[00:20:35] this man this white man is

[00:20:37] preying upon this black girl

[00:20:39] and using

[00:20:41] her fame and her fortune

[00:20:43] and whatever she might have

[00:20:45] like when they're not talking about how pretty

[00:20:47] she looks for the most part they're talking

[00:20:49] about like oh she's going to get this deal

[00:20:51] and she's going to go on tour

[00:20:53] and then she's going to go to this college

[00:20:55] and then she's going to do this

[00:20:57] they're talking about her plan

[00:20:59] and she's already steps ahead of them

[00:21:01] but that's what he's so curious about

[00:21:03] let me ask you this

[00:21:05] if she wouldn't have gotten hurt

[00:21:07] the Tashi character would she still

[00:21:09] have been hanging around with these

[00:21:11] babies

[00:21:13] or desperately tried to hang around with

[00:21:15] with her

[00:21:17] I don't think that she would

[00:21:19] I think she got stuck

[00:21:21] I mean

[00:21:23] I think she's perfect

[00:21:25] more with Patrick because they both have passion

[00:21:27] Patrick's downfall

[00:21:29] is

[00:21:31] his inability to

[00:21:33] adapt

[00:21:35] inability to

[00:21:37] basically concede

[00:21:39] he's a wild card

[00:21:41] he doesn't have focus

[00:21:43] he doesn't want to be conventional

[00:21:45] he doesn't want to change things

[00:21:47] but he's also not focused enough

[00:21:49] because he's much sexier

[00:21:51] and he's much more of a challenge

[00:21:53] for her

[00:21:55] yes but also too

[00:21:57] and I know that we've talked a lot about the marriage

[00:21:59] but these two boys just want to fuck each other

[00:22:01] let's just

[00:22:03] at the end of the day

[00:22:05] that's what this really is all about

[00:22:07] this movie is about

[00:22:09] how do you not see

[00:22:11] and I think she knows that too

[00:22:13] she knows that for the minute

[00:22:15] she walks into that room

[00:22:17] she's testing them the whole time

[00:22:19] there's no more beer

[00:22:21] she looks at them like who is going to leave the room

[00:22:23] to get the beer and be alone with it

[00:22:25] then she's testing you can see that the beds were

[00:22:27] pushed together even before he came in

[00:22:29] there

[00:22:31] she says I don't want to be a home wrecker

[00:22:33] that she doesn't mean just between friends

[00:22:35] no I totally agree

[00:22:37] she sees that

[00:22:39] the best

[00:22:41] part about art

[00:22:43] is Patrick's

[00:22:45] worst qualities

[00:22:47] and his worst qualities

[00:22:49] and Patrick are what make art so great

[00:22:51] they are both

[00:22:53] that's why it's so funny that like

[00:22:55] when we first see them

[00:22:57] they'd want a doubles tournament

[00:22:59] and they're hugging

[00:23:01] and they're all and it's

[00:23:03] it kind of bookends with a hug

[00:23:05] really when you think about it

[00:23:07] when you see them because he's

[00:23:09] they're all over each other

[00:23:11] they're

[00:23:13] eating as much phallic food in this movie

[00:23:15] as possible like ice cream and

[00:23:17] bananas and churros

[00:23:19] I mean like

[00:23:21] yes, Luca is very on the nose with symbolism

[00:23:23] but it's also

[00:23:25] but it's the right way to do it

[00:23:27] it's not pretentious

[00:23:29] it's not like

[00:23:31] I'm not trying to throw this person

[00:23:33] to the bus but I'm just going to say

[00:23:35] it's not like when I watch Ruben Oslin

[00:23:37] and the message is clear

[00:23:39] it is a detail that is added

[00:23:41] to the overall aesthetic

[00:23:43] that what Guadagnino does

[00:23:45] and it's perfect

[00:23:47] little things and they're also memorable

[00:23:49] like you know the churro scene

[00:23:51] has now been talked about

[00:23:53] it's my background for this episode

[00:23:55] it's

[00:23:57] but it's not even about the churro

[00:23:59] it's about the scooch of the chair

[00:24:01] and the foot to get art closer to him

[00:24:03] also the direction

[00:24:05] listening to Luca talk about

[00:24:07] that this is modeled on the 50's

[00:24:09] screwball comedies

[00:24:11] how fast they're talking

[00:24:13] like bullets of conversation

[00:24:15] which in the screwball comedies

[00:24:17] between you know like a Catherine Hepburn

[00:24:19] and Kerry Grant

[00:24:21] I mean it's sexy when you have that rapport

[00:24:23] between two people so he's not just

[00:24:25] doing the churros metaphors

[00:24:27] and the sweat it's also

[00:24:29] they're you know they have a language

[00:24:31] they have a language

[00:24:33] when they speak they have a language

[00:24:35] when they eat they have a language

[00:24:37] how they communicate with each other

[00:24:39] with that ball we're going to talk about at the end

[00:24:41] I mean they have a language

[00:24:43] which is so much more

[00:24:45] relaxed and sexy

[00:24:47] than it is with Tashi

[00:24:49] well and also too

[00:24:51] within that era of those screwball comedies

[00:24:53] lies like directors

[00:24:55] like Howard Hawks

[00:24:57] and the other who were able to

[00:24:59] skirt the haze code

[00:25:01] and try to

[00:25:03] make these messages

[00:25:05] of these innuendos

[00:25:07] about sex and

[00:25:09] ask questions about

[00:25:11] power dynamics and love and everything

[00:25:13] in a much more

[00:25:15] overt and interesting way

[00:25:17] because it couldn't be just

[00:25:19] outright you know what I mean

[00:25:21] because of the rules that are put on them

[00:25:23] and so this movie has no outright sex

[00:25:25] yeah there's not for a movie then

[00:25:27] and this is kind of

[00:25:29] the interesting thing too because

[00:25:31] as you and I Christina

[00:25:33] I mean I saw this movie like a month ago

[00:25:35] and I think everyone's

[00:25:37] been kind of holding in their

[00:25:39] thoughts on it

[00:25:41] it's fascinating that people

[00:25:43] fascinating how people

[00:25:45] get angry at certain films

[00:25:47] because there's so much sex in it

[00:25:49] they get mad

[00:25:51] at certain films because there's not enough sex

[00:25:53] in it. It's like people don't know what the hell they want

[00:25:55] and

[00:25:57] yeah salt burn

[00:25:59] poor things

[00:26:01] this

[00:26:03] let's just embrace all

[00:26:05] sex is different to every single person

[00:26:07] so the idea in eroticism as well too

[00:26:09] so the idea of

[00:26:11] this being a flowing tapestry and Luca

[00:26:13] is

[00:26:15] more seduced but yet it's the right

[00:26:17] choices it's about the choices

[00:26:19] the director makes

[00:26:21] that fits in the story

[00:26:23] how it fits the vibe in which it's telling

[00:26:25] I think that

[00:26:27] the three way scene was used

[00:26:29] in the marketing perfectly because

[00:26:31] it gets you to

[00:26:33] invite into the psyche

[00:26:35] of these three characters rather than

[00:26:37] being some sort of titillating

[00:26:39] thing that could

[00:26:41] be kind of vapid and empty

[00:26:43] the kiss between

[00:26:45] the two guys

[00:26:47] it says a lot more than

[00:26:49] outcome of the rest of this movie

[00:26:51] more than like

[00:26:53] more than

[00:26:55] a lot of other movies would just

[00:26:57] have the overt let's all of them have sex

[00:26:59] and then it doesn't lead

[00:27:01] anywhere because then it would actually

[00:27:03] be more complicated

[00:27:05] and kind of just wrong

[00:27:07] for what we see

[00:27:09] and then like you were talking about

[00:27:11] Tashi then goes

[00:27:13] and sits back

[00:27:15] she's got this grin on her face

[00:27:17] and she has at the end of the film

[00:27:19] and then she's

[00:27:21] just watching these two and then she's like

[00:27:23] okay

[00:27:25] she's always knowing more about them

[00:27:27] she knows what she wants

[00:27:29] she's knowing about them as people

[00:27:31] as players, as boys

[00:27:33] as she knows

[00:27:35] but then also that scene being

[00:27:37] an awakening really for the two of them

[00:27:39] right for art

[00:27:41] that becomes the moment when he becomes

[00:27:43] obsessed with the idea

[00:27:45] of this girl

[00:27:47] and this is also the point where he

[00:27:49] can't get Patrick out of his head

[00:27:51] on the tennis court

[00:27:53] and Patrick can't get art out of his head

[00:27:55] because he wants to fuck him

[00:27:57] like that's literally how it is

[00:27:59] because then we see so many moments

[00:28:01] where both of them are coded

[00:28:03] like the way Mike Feist

[00:28:05] sleeps or crawls

[00:28:07] on the bed

[00:28:09] for lack of a better word

[00:28:11] his ass is in the air

[00:28:13] like he is this

[00:28:15] bottom

[00:28:17] that is just needing and wanting

[00:28:19] something consciously, unconsciously

[00:28:21] and it's like being called out

[00:28:23] into the wild and then you have Patrick

[00:28:25] who is this one

[00:28:27] we can talk about the sauna scene

[00:28:29] which is maybe the scene of the year

[00:28:31] so far because

[00:28:33] and I just came on for the Civil War

[00:28:35] discussion and we talked about the Plemons

[00:28:37] scene being this scene of the year

[00:28:39] and now this is a scene of the year contender

[00:28:41] it's a good year

[00:28:43] because it's really good so far

[00:28:45] because those scenes

[00:28:47] encapsulate so much

[00:28:49] within

[00:28:51] what the movie is trying to say

[00:28:53] with this overall message

[00:28:55] and we see this with Patrick

[00:28:57] where he is

[00:28:59] he's alone

[00:29:01] it seems like he's chasing these two now

[00:29:03] he's running to

[00:29:05] he's having a blind date in the bar

[00:29:07] which he knows they're staying at

[00:29:09] this point because he knows how much money they make

[00:29:11] and everything

[00:29:13] he is going to

[00:29:15] practice and waiting

[00:29:17] in that locker room and there's all these naked

[00:29:19] guys around him

[00:29:21] he's on a dating app

[00:29:23] there's a hesitation on the guy

[00:29:25] that he sees on the Tinder app

[00:29:27] and he kind of swipes right

[00:29:29] but he's there

[00:29:31] and he's not looking for those guys

[00:29:33] he could have any other guy

[00:29:35] he doesn't want them

[00:29:37] he finds them in the sauna

[00:29:39] and then yeah

[00:29:41] he's willing to have it all lay out

[00:29:43] and

[00:29:45] art's not comfortable with that

[00:29:47] but I think of the look that Patrick gives

[00:29:49] when art stands up

[00:29:51] of this please take off your towel

[00:29:53] please let me see

[00:29:55] what I saw

[00:29:57] when I was 12

[00:29:59] when I introduced you

[00:30:01] to your sexual awakening

[00:30:03] we had another awakening

[00:30:05] and we got done with this

[00:30:07] and then

[00:30:09] art's so oblivious to all of this too

[00:30:11] he's super

[00:30:13] just passive

[00:30:15] and kind of

[00:30:17] going through the motions

[00:30:19] and then yeah that tennis scene

[00:30:21] the way the ball is placed

[00:30:23] it opens up

[00:30:25] kind of everything for art at that point

[00:30:27] both I think tennis wise

[00:30:29] a realization of his marriage

[00:30:31] and the realization of

[00:30:33] which is

[00:30:35] his best friend

[00:30:37] and the realization that Patrick is willing to tell him this

[00:30:39] not to be mean

[00:30:41] but to be I want you

[00:30:43] but he also has nothing to lose

[00:30:45] like that's the thing Patrick will go

[00:30:47] Patrick will go to the next thing

[00:30:49] like art's whole career is based off this challenger

[00:30:51] you know it's based off

[00:30:53] this match between the two of them

[00:30:55] and they both know that

[00:30:57] I mean that's where

[00:30:59] I think the desprecity in Tashi

[00:31:01] going to Patrick

[00:31:03] wanting you know

[00:31:05] wanting to still because she has definite

[00:31:07] attraction to him still as well

[00:31:09] is drawn to him like a motto of flame

[00:31:11] like because of his spirit

[00:31:13] both sex scenes not the one in the car

[00:31:15] the ones with Tashi are not fulfilled

[00:31:17] as they're describing of them

[00:31:19] their kiss, their

[00:31:21] steaminess, their hunger for each other

[00:31:23] so much more than

[00:31:25] anything when she's involved

[00:31:27] but she can play tennis

[00:31:29] with Patrick

[00:31:31] every scene that she's with Joshua Connor

[00:31:33] because I mean that's the thing is

[00:31:35] the movie is describing

[00:31:37] that every conversation

[00:31:39] is always tennis it's always on

[00:31:41] she's never turned it off

[00:31:43] you know I mean it's like

[00:31:45] when you hear actors talk about their method

[00:31:47] they're always on

[00:31:49] they've never turned it off

[00:31:51] they never shut it down

[00:31:53] that's what she's doing

[00:31:55] completely that's what she's doing

[00:31:57] she finds that she can do it more with

[00:31:59] Patrick

[00:32:01] but with art

[00:32:03] she was able to easily get to those goals

[00:32:05] that all those obtainable

[00:32:07] materialistic goals

[00:32:09] that really then don't add up to anything

[00:32:11] because once a career is done

[00:32:13] all you're left with then

[00:32:15] is an emptiness of the game

[00:32:17] but even the sex scene in the little dorm room

[00:32:19] yeah

[00:32:21] there she doesn't want to continue

[00:32:23] with Patrick because he doesn't want to talk tennis

[00:32:25] he wants to have sex

[00:32:27] you know what I mean

[00:32:29] but he also undercuts her

[00:32:31] and that's where I think

[00:32:33] Patrick's

[00:32:35] wildness kind of gets

[00:32:37] the better of him is that

[00:32:39] she knows how good he can be

[00:32:41] but

[00:32:43] he is

[00:32:45] he's the only thing in his way

[00:32:47] right?

[00:32:49] she has no respect for either of them in different ways

[00:32:51] no, she doesn't

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[00:33:21] one thing does she know

[00:33:23] do you think she knew

[00:33:25] that Patrick was going to come

[00:33:27] to New Rochelle?

[00:33:29] I think so

[00:33:31] I think that there's

[00:33:33] I think that

[00:33:35] these people are so obsessive with one another

[00:33:37] she's asked for one thing

[00:33:39] the entire movie and that is

[00:33:41] I want to see great tennis

[00:33:43] and great tennis is a relationship

[00:33:45] it's sex

[00:33:47] because she's asked that from them from the beginning

[00:33:49] when they're on the beach

[00:33:51] and they're talking

[00:33:53] she said I just want to see good tennis

[00:33:55] like I mean

[00:33:57] hard is not playing good tennis

[00:33:59] until that last scene

[00:34:01] he's not been playing good tennis for a long time

[00:34:03] you know and even

[00:34:05] his physical therapy

[00:34:07] and everything feels like he's going through the motions

[00:34:09] and so

[00:34:11] whether it's conscious or not

[00:34:13] that Patrick is there

[00:34:15] I think that there is a little bit about

[00:34:17] Tashi wanting it

[00:34:19] overall by the end

[00:34:21] and yes I think she wants an easy match

[00:34:23] and that's easy but

[00:34:25] I think she realizes

[00:34:27] by the end when they

[00:34:29] they get over the net

[00:34:31] she's like

[00:34:33] she screams as loud as when she's serving an ace

[00:34:35] in

[00:34:37] you know in her amateur days

[00:34:39] and I think that that's

[00:34:41] just a brilliant touch because

[00:34:43] because

[00:34:45] it can be interpreted many ways

[00:34:47] it can be interpreted that

[00:34:49] like this

[00:34:51] they're finally going to get maybe back on the right path

[00:34:53] maybe this is what their role is meant to be

[00:34:55] is together

[00:34:57] what their

[00:34:59] futures hold after that

[00:35:01] who knows

[00:35:03] but she got what she wanted

[00:35:05] what she got these two

[00:35:07] to finally understand

[00:35:09] what real tennis looks like

[00:35:11] and how it can be played

[00:35:13] if you just throw

[00:35:15] everything else away

[00:35:17] when it's not about money

[00:35:19] or it's not about sex

[00:35:21] or it's not about

[00:35:23] power dynamics, it's just about two people

[00:35:25] on a court serving a damn ball

[00:35:27] and man

[00:35:29] when we watch them play tennis throughout this movie

[00:35:31] this

[00:35:33] five set match

[00:35:35] it's so

[00:35:37] goddamn good

[00:35:39] and between the score

[00:35:41] and

[00:35:43] the cinematography

[00:35:45] the perspective of the ball

[00:35:47] the perspective of the ball

[00:35:49] I love the shot

[00:35:51] it's almost like it's above glass

[00:35:53] the way Luca does it where they're both

[00:35:55] on their sides of the tennis court

[00:35:57] and the camera is above them as they're

[00:35:59] as they're moving it's

[00:36:01] yeah it's

[00:36:03] I don't think I've seen most of this ever done

[00:36:05] in a tennis movie

[00:36:07] it lends itself to definitely

[00:36:09] wanting to see it again in IMAX

[00:36:11] because I could only imagine

[00:36:13] sort of like

[00:36:15] I was watching this movie and I felt

[00:36:17] because the way the camera was moving

[00:36:19] as if it was the ball at times

[00:36:21] Christine I don't know if you've ever seen this movie

[00:36:23] but it was reminding me of the

[00:36:25] Wachowski speed racer

[00:36:27] almost the visceralness

[00:36:29] and the

[00:36:31] that movie is much more colorful but there's a lot

[00:36:33] of the camera moving

[00:36:35] with the race cars

[00:36:37] and everything there and it's sort of like

[00:36:39] a dance

[00:36:41] right and there's something

[00:36:43] majestic and beautiful about

[00:36:45] those cars moving in place in the way

[00:36:47] in which the Wachowskis use that

[00:36:49] then to weave into their narrative

[00:36:51] the way the ball is used or Patrick's perspective

[00:36:53] or art's perspective throughout

[00:36:55] the tennis match

[00:36:57] Luca Guadagnano does the same thing here

[00:36:59] and it's such a brilliant

[00:37:01] choice to do rather than

[00:37:03] just stationary camera

[00:37:05] have us as the audience feel just like that

[00:37:07] like

[00:37:09] we are in

[00:37:11] it almost feels like a damn video game at times

[00:37:13] the way that we're in there

[00:37:15] but it's to then feel

[00:37:17] and hear

[00:37:19] the emotions

[00:37:21] and also to feel the impact

[00:37:23] of that tennis match

[00:37:25] and it's a tennis match

[00:37:27] in a challenger match

[00:37:29] or whatever it's called at La Racha

[00:37:31] this is not like McEnroe vs. Borey

[00:37:33] this is in Wimbledon

[00:37:35] this is for me

[00:37:37] the most exciting fictional

[00:37:39] tennis I've seen in terms of

[00:37:41] just the beauty of it

[00:37:43] I was like on the edge of my seat

[00:37:45] can I ask you something

[00:37:47] because I think that most

[00:37:49] audience members aren't going to be like you and me

[00:37:51] and be like maybe have seen a Luca Guadagnano film

[00:37:53] or

[00:37:55] knew what they were getting themselves in for

[00:37:57] because I want to talk to you about the score

[00:37:59] because I think we have to talk

[00:38:01] about the score

[00:38:03] when it started

[00:38:05] doing

[00:38:07] house music

[00:38:09] from any

[00:38:11] club

[00:38:13] I was watching it in Austin and I was like

[00:38:15] am I at the clubs right now

[00:38:17] when I saw the film

[00:38:19] the idea of

[00:38:21] that tennis is always on but using that music

[00:38:23] how did you feel

[00:38:25] about that because I

[00:38:27] felt that it is jarring at first when you're like

[00:38:29] oh this is

[00:38:31] but as the movie went on

[00:38:33] I was like every time it clicked on

[00:38:35] I thought it was like

[00:38:37] this is so genius

[00:38:39] and so smart

[00:38:41] of using this as like

[00:38:43] every conversation

[00:38:45] I do think the sound mix does cut some of the dialogue

[00:38:47] from it

[00:38:49] but I was curious what you thought of just

[00:38:51] Luca's decision with the

[00:38:53] Resner and Ross score in terms of

[00:38:55] the tennis is always on

[00:38:57] what you think about it

[00:38:59] it was like giving me a shot of tequila

[00:39:01] and

[00:39:03] it just

[00:39:05] gave me the adrenaline

[00:39:07] kick that I wasn't expecting

[00:39:09] when I went in. I was expecting steamy

[00:39:11] I was expecting sort of a love triangle

[00:39:13] of some sort but to feel like I was

[00:39:15] on an adrenaline tequila

[00:39:17] kick for two hours was

[00:39:19] the best thing and that was very much

[00:39:21] because of the music

[00:39:23] I think that in another director's

[00:39:25] bands and other composers

[00:39:27] they would never even have thought of it

[00:39:29] yeah I mean

[00:39:31] he wanted a rave party

[00:39:33] but what's so interesting too

[00:39:35] is it's mattered throughout almost every

[00:39:37] conversation

[00:39:39] but what's interesting too about the

[00:39:41] Resner and Ross score and I actually think

[00:39:43] that it's maybe

[00:39:45] the touch

[00:39:47] that no one is talking about

[00:39:49] is

[00:39:51] how Tashi has her own music

[00:39:53] and it's played twice

[00:39:55] it's played when she's

[00:39:57] when she's

[00:39:59] in that

[00:40:01] storm right

[00:40:03] with her and Patrick and everything

[00:40:05] that's not the tennis music there

[00:40:07] it's kind of conveyed later in the film

[00:40:09] but early on when she's under that tree

[00:40:11] her

[00:40:13] rehabilitation is not

[00:40:15] going well

[00:40:17] and she looks at her score

[00:40:19] and she looks at her score and I think

[00:40:21] she realizes a pivot

[00:40:23] is going to have to happen

[00:40:25] and that's where

[00:40:27] you can get caught up with these two

[00:40:29] boys

[00:40:31] controlling the narrative through their

[00:40:33] loud actions

[00:40:35] but it's the subtle

[00:40:37] actions that she does

[00:40:39] or the

[00:40:41] references to herself or just

[00:40:43] having a moment like that

[00:40:45] and the movie is so important

[00:40:47] because then it centers the film back

[00:40:49] to like no every decision that these two

[00:40:51] dum-dums have made

[00:40:53] have never come actually from their brain

[00:40:55] it has been planted

[00:40:57] as a seed

[00:40:59] of obsession

[00:41:01] or

[00:41:03] it's just been planted in general

[00:41:05] by her

[00:41:07] when Patrick is giving

[00:41:09] her in that

[00:41:11] alleyway this idea of

[00:41:13] her switching from art

[00:41:15] to him

[00:41:17] thinking

[00:41:19] because she's checked out of this marriage

[00:41:21] she knows what

[00:41:23] she hopes that art because it's easier

[00:41:25] it's easier to stay in this mode

[00:41:27] because you're familiar with it

[00:41:29] changes hard

[00:41:31] but she knows that she's not done with the sport

[00:41:33] she'll never be done with the sport

[00:41:35] the sport is in her blood

[00:41:37] she will be coaching

[00:41:39] prodigies like herself

[00:41:41] and honestly that's what she should be doing

[00:41:43] but

[00:41:45] she knows that she's going to face art

[00:41:47] she then knows too

[00:41:49] that he's going to probably offer this

[00:41:51] but she also knows too

[00:41:53] based off of

[00:41:55] the past and everything

[00:41:57] that she's going to hook up with him

[00:41:59] because she can't

[00:42:01] because she's drawing a line

[00:42:03] and she knows

[00:42:05] that she's going to face art

[00:42:07] and she knows

[00:42:09] that she's going to face art

[00:42:11] she then knows too

[00:42:13] that she's going to hook up with him

[00:42:15] because she can't

[00:42:17] because she's drawn to him

[00:42:19] there's a part of her that's still connected to him

[00:42:21] just like she is to art

[00:42:23] I always find it really

[00:42:25] also interesting that not a lot of people are talking about

[00:42:27] just

[00:42:29] again, she has a child

[00:42:31] and she has a family

[00:42:33] and a life but it all feels

[00:42:35] like it's generated

[00:42:37] out of a machine

[00:42:39] out of necessity for an image

[00:42:41] I don't think she loves art

[00:42:43] I don't think she ever really did love art

[00:42:45] like I know that sounds harsh but

[00:42:47] I'm a little bit more

[00:42:49] inclined to say that I do think

[00:42:51] that she has

[00:42:53] love or whatever

[00:42:55] but that she has a lot of empathy

[00:42:57] for art because I do think the idea

[00:42:59] to get him to play at New Rochelle

[00:43:01] and as she tells

[00:43:03] Patrick in order to boost

[00:43:05] his confidence that he really needs it

[00:43:07] I think that that is that

[00:43:09] honestly she would like to see him happy

[00:43:11] for her sake too happy

[00:43:13] with tennis so that he will go on

[00:43:15] but let me have a little bit

[00:43:17] about the screenwriting because there's some choices here

[00:43:19] how did you feel

[00:43:21] about the constant

[00:43:23] time jumpings and the

[00:43:25] kairons and the dates

[00:43:27] and having to look at the wigs

[00:43:29] to sort of figure out where we are

[00:43:31] I gotta tell you, I thought that

[00:43:33] the time jumping was perfect

[00:43:35] you know what I mean

[00:43:37] like

[00:43:39] this is a 13 year

[00:43:41] jump

[00:43:43] and I thought that the way in which they kind of did

[00:43:45] it was perfect

[00:43:47] because

[00:43:49] if you watch tennis

[00:43:51] like you and I have

[00:43:53] we watch these athletes from a very young age

[00:43:55] and we see them mature

[00:43:57] and we see them grow

[00:43:59] but we see the subtle changes

[00:44:01] over time

[00:44:03] and I think that in the sequences

[00:44:05] with art and Patrick when they're younger

[00:44:07] the film is

[00:44:09] lit almost in a different way

[00:44:11] at Stanford and at the night at the beach

[00:44:13] and in the hotel room

[00:44:15] and it is in the beginning

[00:44:17] then in the time

[00:44:19] forward and as the film

[00:44:21] sort of

[00:44:23] there's almost like this

[00:44:25] remembrance or dusty

[00:44:27] time feeling to the cinematography

[00:44:29] that almost then

[00:44:31] fades away as we get into

[00:44:33] the more realistic modern day stuff

[00:44:37] and so I thought it was

[00:44:39] great and I think that

[00:44:41] we didn't need any de-aging

[00:44:43] makeup, we didn't need

[00:44:45] super prosthetics or anything

[00:44:47] we just needed to kind of have the subtleness

[00:44:49] and then also the

[00:44:51] maturity of the

[00:44:53] way in which they both look

[00:44:55] like O'Connor

[00:44:57] starts off I think a little bit more muscular

[00:44:59] and then becomes scrawnier

[00:45:01] and obviously

[00:45:03] the outfit is very

[00:45:05] like I just picked this up

[00:45:07] at Walmart

[00:45:09] to perform tennis and then

[00:45:11] Mike Feist becomes

[00:45:13] bigger because he's got

[00:45:15] the resources so it's

[00:45:17] realistic in terms of

[00:45:19] how these two's paths would go

[00:45:21] in terms of the money, the power

[00:45:23] influence.

[00:45:25] She has the Chanel, Estre-Miles

[00:45:27] and the haircut and the whole

[00:45:29] it's like watching modern tennis

[00:45:31] by the time at the end because you're just like

[00:45:33] well yeah this would be like what if

[00:45:35] you know Rafa Nadal had to play

[00:45:37] a challenger and his whole family

[00:45:39] showed up in the middle of nowhere

[00:45:41] this is how it would be, they wouldn't

[00:45:43] be living in their car

[00:45:45] like this amateur

[00:45:47] or this guy trying to barely

[00:45:49] make the cut for the US Open or whatever

[00:45:51] or Wimbledon, they would be

[00:45:53] at the very nice hotel that's like

[00:45:55] five miles away and

[00:45:57] they would live very

[00:45:59] comfortably in the hotel suite that

[00:46:01] they do. Which is also a point, they don't even

[00:46:03] have a home, they're living out of

[00:46:05] hotel, I mean they're living for the sport

[00:46:07] and for the tours, they're not living, they

[00:46:09] haven't made a home together and of course

[00:46:11] we have the

[00:46:13] tennis racket ball signal

[00:46:15] which of course is the entire

[00:46:17] ending which

[00:46:19] in someone else's hands could have been a really

[00:46:21] corny thing, don't you think?

[00:46:23] Oh I think yeah

[00:46:25] I think the sending wouldn't work if it was

[00:46:27] anybody else honestly, like

[00:46:29] I mean it just makes sense, I mean

[00:46:31] that's the thing

[00:46:33] it's like

[00:46:35] Luca has memorable endings

[00:46:37] he really does

[00:46:39] I kind of

[00:46:41] I got mad a little bit

[00:46:43] on the rewatch of Bones and All

[00:46:45] in 2022 because

[00:46:47] I feel like

[00:46:49] I feel the movie should have ended

[00:46:51] maybe 10 minutes before

[00:46:53] when they're on the hill together

[00:46:55] and it just ends on this beautiful

[00:46:57] note and we don't see like

[00:46:59] you know her have to eat

[00:47:01] chalamet at the end of that, spoilers for Bones and All

[00:47:03] but

[00:47:05] because I just thought that like emotionally that was

[00:47:07] the right move and I felt like maybe like

[00:47:09] the studio maybe added that extra

[00:47:11] part to it but it felt still within Luca

[00:47:13] but it just was a little bit extra

[00:47:15] but then like watch the ending of Suspiria

[00:47:17] or watch the ending of A Bigger Splash

[00:47:19] or watch Call Me By Your Name

[00:47:21] or watch the ending of the

[00:47:23] Bunch but like

[00:47:25] he's deliberate

[00:47:27] and you only can feel like

[00:47:29] he can get away with those kinds of endings

[00:47:31] that's kind of the perfect

[00:47:33] thing about Luca is

[00:47:35] he knows how to stick

[00:47:37] the landing and literally

[00:47:39] he sticks it here

[00:47:41] at these two going over the net

[00:47:43] it's great

[00:47:45] I love it, I think it's fantastic

[00:47:47] I think it circles back to all the things

[00:47:49] about these three

[00:47:51] about these two guys

[00:47:53] about her obsession with one in great tennis

[00:47:55] I don't know

[00:47:57] where it would go after that because

[00:47:59] I really don't care I just think like

[00:48:01] some movies just have a great ending and I'm not

[00:48:03] thinking about where they're going next

[00:48:05] do you think anyone

[00:48:07] will be able to put a ball in the center

[00:48:09] of a tennis racket

[00:48:11] without someone thinking you slept with my wife

[00:48:13] you asshole

[00:48:15] you're throwing this game

[00:48:17] I miss you too

[00:48:19] I miss you too

[00:48:21] there's so many things said

[00:48:23] in that moment

[00:48:25] everything is said

[00:48:27] within that gesture

[00:48:29] and it's

[00:48:31] well it's not even like the

[00:48:33] ball there it's right

[00:48:35] oh no it is because

[00:48:37] he has an unorthodox serving

[00:48:39] he usually does it behind his back

[00:48:41] which is so interesting

[00:48:43] again it goes back to

[00:48:45] how unconventional

[00:48:47] Patrick is with the racket

[00:48:49] and then how standard

[00:48:51] art is and how

[00:48:53] both of them need each other to find

[00:48:55] the balance in between

[00:48:57] it's all about balance

[00:48:59] so yeah I love it

[00:49:01] I mean you obviously loved it too

[00:49:03] let's talk a little

[00:49:05] about Justin and Celine

[00:49:07] and the fact that they made these

[00:49:09] incredible movies

[00:49:11] a year apart about

[00:49:13] incredible trios

[00:49:15] of

[00:49:17] people longing and loving

[00:49:19] and not getting each other

[00:49:21] and don't you just want to have dinner with them?

[00:49:23] I'll be the third one

[00:49:25] in that relationship

[00:49:31] well I have

[00:49:33] had the chance to sit down

[00:49:35] and interview Celine Song

[00:49:37] and once she's just a lovely person

[00:49:39] and I actually got to see her again

[00:49:41] earlier this year

[00:49:43] at the Crick's Choice Awards

[00:49:45] and she's super nice

[00:49:47] and she was taking in obviously

[00:49:49] her big moment with

[00:49:51] her film Past Lives

[00:49:53] they're completely different films

[00:49:55] in terms of the dynamics and power

[00:49:57] but what it is interesting is

[00:49:59] is

[00:50:01] how

[00:50:03] Celine Song sees her husband

[00:50:05] in that film

[00:50:07] and how

[00:50:09] Tashi has written

[00:50:11] and I don't think that

[00:50:13] they're necessarily

[00:50:15] the same

[00:50:17] comparison

[00:50:19] but I do think if there is anything

[00:50:21] he does see his wife

[00:50:23] as this very strong

[00:50:25] in power

[00:50:27] individual

[00:50:29] I do think that there's a lot of love there

[00:50:31] more than there is with art

[00:50:33] it's not as transactional

[00:50:35] as

[00:50:37] what we see here in Challengers

[00:50:39] but there's also

[00:50:41] the husband in Past Lives

[00:50:43] if you ask me is not as big a disappointment

[00:50:45] as art

[00:50:47] no he's not, no he's not

[00:50:49] if anything he's

[00:50:51] searching for acceptance

[00:50:53] he's not just kind he knows what she needs

[00:50:55] in a way that art

[00:50:57] has no idea what Zendaya needs

[00:50:59] no

[00:51:01] he's very much in that

[00:51:03] like John Margaro's character in that film

[00:51:05] is very

[00:51:07] is very much like

[00:51:09] I know you need to go on this journey

[00:51:11] to understand

[00:51:13] this and there is even like a moment

[00:51:15] where John Margaro's character meets

[00:51:17] Taeyu and he's like

[00:51:19] holy shit like

[00:51:21] even I would be like that is a good looking man

[00:51:23] I would be like

[00:51:25] I am fucked in this whole scenario

[00:51:27] so like I

[00:51:29] I got like

[00:51:31] that always got me like the first go around

[00:51:33] and it's like yeah he

[00:51:35] even explains

[00:51:37] he explains in bed

[00:51:39] that night

[00:51:41] I am not

[00:51:43] I am not the typical

[00:51:45] I am the person ruining the happy ending

[00:51:47] right I am the one

[00:51:49] yeah and that you're gonna say

[00:51:51] and then bye

[00:51:53] you're gonna go off with him and then I'm stuck here

[00:51:55] by myself

[00:51:57] and then she goes

[00:51:59] but I'm married to you

[00:52:01] and he's and that is like

[00:52:03] you need to remember that

[00:52:05] you know that like

[00:52:07] I chose to be with you

[00:52:09] I could have flown across the world at any point

[00:52:11] to be with this person

[00:52:13] I'm closing a door here

[00:52:15] I'm not opening a romance

[00:52:17] yeah and I think the second time

[00:52:19] when you watch past lives it's actually more devastating

[00:52:21] when you know that

[00:52:23] because when you go into the first watch

[00:52:25] you are expecting

[00:52:27] that but then once you

[00:52:29] know that there is no romance at the end of this

[00:52:31] and so you're able to pick up that

[00:52:33] Nora is through the entire process

[00:52:35] trying to just

[00:52:37] find closure

[00:52:39] but that still hurts

[00:52:41] it hurts but it's

[00:52:43] but you still have the feeling

[00:52:45] that their relationship is beautiful

[00:52:47] and that they have this

[00:52:49] life together and their writing together

[00:52:51] you don't feel that with art

[00:52:53] and Tashi

[00:52:55] no I mean

[00:52:57] easily

[00:52:59] and I mean

[00:53:01] I think also too this is not

[00:53:03] biographical but I think it's just

[00:53:05] I think it is very coincidental

[00:53:07] yeah it's just very interesting that they are

[00:53:09] I think sometimes

[00:53:11] also too when you're a writer and you're in the same house

[00:53:13] and you know this

[00:53:15] from being with a creative

[00:53:17] person in your life

[00:53:19] you might attract

[00:53:21] to the same sort of style

[00:53:23] or material but the way

[00:53:25] you're thinking about it

[00:53:27] could also be a calm response

[00:53:29] it could also just be a way to

[00:53:31] subvert what

[00:53:33] others are expecting to be

[00:53:35] a little bit more creative

[00:53:37] and interesting

[00:53:39] but also kind of deeply talk about

[00:53:43] subject matters that are not talked

[00:53:45] about in your partner's

[00:53:47] because this is a deeply queer

[00:53:49] film and he has been

[00:53:51] unapologized

[00:53:53] and he's not apologized at all

[00:53:55] about talking about that

[00:53:57] on the

[00:53:59] trail and talking with various people

[00:54:01] about it he's like this

[00:54:03] how could it not be

[00:54:05] the sport of tennis

[00:54:07] within itself is very erotic

[00:54:09] and you know

[00:54:11] you have these grown men grunting

[00:54:13] and sweating and running

[00:54:15] and yelling

[00:54:17] and he's like

[00:54:19] exactly like in the looks

[00:54:21] and then

[00:54:23] there's something deeply sensual

[00:54:25] and sexual and

[00:54:27] vibrant about it

[00:54:29] about the sport of tennis

[00:54:31] and so I think it's just really kind of interesting

[00:54:33] I think we wanted more connective tissue

[00:54:35] than we probably got

[00:54:37] but I would be very

[00:54:39] I'd be very interested to see what the hell they do next

[00:54:41] because we know what she's doing

[00:54:43] and he's doing queer

[00:54:45] which is the next loop of what

[00:54:47] and so they

[00:54:49] they found a creative process to work together

[00:54:51] and adapt this material but

[00:54:53] and irregardless of anything that would be

[00:54:55] autobiographical

[00:54:57] the fact that they both have written

[00:54:59] two of the most interesting

[00:55:01] films to talk about relationships

[00:55:03] they seem to have a creative

[00:55:05] partnership that allows

[00:55:07] them to really think about these things

[00:55:09] and bring them out and I heard

[00:55:11] Justin saying that they're of course

[00:55:13] the first people who read each other's

[00:55:15] work and critique it

[00:55:17] in that harsh way that you can

[00:55:19] when you're close to someone and just

[00:55:21] that is fascinating.

[00:55:23] What about in terms of

[00:55:25] Oscar it's only April

[00:55:27] um but do you

[00:55:29] see that

[00:55:31] in terms of the awards year

[00:55:33] here is it too early

[00:55:35] is it

[00:55:37] man we didn't even really get to talk about that on our show

[00:55:39] um yeah

[00:55:41] because we just ended up talking so much

[00:55:43] about this wonderful film

[00:55:45] I mean maybe

[00:55:47] I mean it has made a little bit of chunk of

[00:55:49] change which is good for itself

[00:55:51] that's always a good thing

[00:55:53] I mean look it does have queer

[00:55:55] coming out which could also

[00:55:57] deter this I mean I would

[00:55:59] love to see

[00:56:01] the three of them be in

[00:56:03] consideration of the screenplay to be in

[00:56:05] consideration I definitely

[00:56:07] think Resner and Ross's course can it be

[00:56:09] there um

[00:56:11] you know but also too sometimes

[00:56:13] directors they release two films in one

[00:56:15] year and they get celebrated and sometimes they get left

[00:56:17] by the wayside

[00:56:19] queer is actually coming out 2024

[00:56:21] I believe so yeah I believe that it

[00:56:23] is coming out yeah yeah yeah I think

[00:56:25] they're done with it I think it's supposed to come out

[00:56:27] and play the festivals later this year

[00:56:29] but um I mean Luca

[00:56:31] had a lot of success with

[00:56:33] call me by your name in Suspiria

[00:56:35] and Bones and All

[00:56:37] not so much this is definitely

[00:56:39] different than those um

[00:56:41] I hope so

[00:56:43] I you know I

[00:56:45] tend to be a little bit more pessimistic

[00:56:47] you know about movies like this because it is

[00:56:49] it's got a

[00:56:51] overtly queer things it's very

[00:56:53] unconventional

[00:56:55] audiences have liked it

[00:56:57] enough for it to be a number one film in a box

[00:56:59] office but like

[00:57:01] and critics have really liked it as well but then

[00:57:03] critics haven't seen everything

[00:57:05] um you know

[00:57:07] I look at it like this

[00:57:09] past lives was a pretty

[00:57:11] undeniable film

[00:57:13] it was like it was like the

[00:57:15] movie we all upset we

[00:57:17] all collectively obsessed about

[00:57:19] from the first half of the year

[00:57:21] it was actually up until

[00:57:23] barbenheimer there was not a single

[00:57:25] movie that anybody else probably

[00:57:27] had didn't have in their top five that wasn't

[00:57:29] past lives and so

[00:57:31] it made sense that that movie then

[00:57:33] got nominated for best picture because

[00:57:35] how could it not right

[00:57:37] I don't I know

[00:57:39] that you and I and

[00:57:41] and so if you and Eric

[00:57:43] and everybody at a world's watch we really like

[00:57:45] the film a lot and but

[00:57:47] I know that there's tons of more films coming out

[00:57:49] it's very rare we're not getting

[00:57:51] a lot of great stuff

[00:57:53] right now and so but

[00:57:55] if the year

[00:57:57] is uncertain like if you know

[00:57:59] some of these movies that we think are fall films fall by the wayside

[00:58:01] it could be to its

[00:58:03] benefit um and I hope

[00:58:05] so because I think it's I think it's a really

[00:58:07] fascinating

[00:58:09] and interesting movie um and I hope

[00:58:11] it gets to stay around in the works race and if anything

[00:58:13] also just for for Zendaya

[00:58:15] Mike Feist and Joshua Conner

[00:58:17] those performances are so

[00:58:19] damn good like how could you not want

[00:58:21] to include them um

[00:58:23] you know when we talked about Civil War

[00:58:25] like thinking about kirsten dunce's performance like

[00:58:27] herds and dire and like

[00:58:29] the the the one two

[00:58:31] spot right now early on in the year

[00:58:33] um so

[00:58:35] you know I'm not as set in stone

[00:58:37] as some people are and thinking that it's 100%

[00:58:39] all the way in

[00:58:41] because nothing really is at this point

[00:58:43] we're only in late April or early May

[00:58:45] but um I hope

[00:58:47] so I hope so I hope so too

[00:58:49] and it also be a very cool for the Oscars

[00:58:51] if we would get the Diane

[00:58:53] kirsten dunce I mean talk about

[00:58:55] great people for

[00:58:57] the carpet yeah well

[00:58:59] I mean like just get

[00:59:01] her just gets and I on any carpet

[00:59:03] like she is

[00:59:05] she is

[00:59:07] I say this all the time I'm like she is

[00:59:09] she kills it every

[00:59:11] time there's she is one of the most

[00:59:13] like must see

[00:59:15] red carpet people we

[00:59:17] have so she she knows

[00:59:19] exactly how to run a carpet

[00:59:21] you know

[00:59:23] and I think she's fantastic here and I hope we

[00:59:25] get more performances like this I hope there's

[00:59:27] there's more roles made

[00:59:29] for her like directing which she has

[00:59:31] mentioned several times I think she would

[00:59:33] she's very she says

[00:59:35] talked about how much she really admire

[00:59:37] cinematographers and if you're an actor

[00:59:39] and

[00:59:41] you're in mind cinematographers that's usually

[00:59:43] been the case then that you're going to be a director so

[00:59:45] um

[00:59:47] as much as this movie is from her perspective it almost

[00:59:49] feels like she is directing

[00:59:51] in a lot of ways she's producing she's putting her

[00:59:53] hands in things so

[00:59:55] I would definitely be down to see that

[00:59:57] and I think

[00:59:59] Brian tell everyone where they can get your stuff

[01:00:01] oh well you can find me

[01:00:03] on twitter instagram and letterbox

[01:00:05] like in innuendo

[01:00:07] I know where you can see my stuff

[01:00:09] you're not seeing that

[01:00:11] all you can find me on

[01:00:13] all those social media platforms I just said at ryan

[01:00:15] Mcquade 77 all my work

[01:00:17] is at awards watch calm all my reviews

[01:00:19] and interviews

[01:00:21] if you want to go back and read my interview with

[01:00:23] Celine song about past lives

[01:00:25] you want to read

[01:00:27] the interview with her husband

[01:00:29] over

[01:00:31] challenges you can read Eric's interview

[01:00:33] on our website at awardswatch.com

[01:00:35] we have the awards watch podcast

[01:00:37] that releases every sunday and we have the director

[01:00:39] watch series that is released

[01:00:41] every thursday

[01:00:43] thank you so much looking forward to the next

[01:00:45] movie we'll talk about yes absolutely

[01:00:47] thank you so much Christina

[01:00:49] well hey podcast listener my name is vince

[01:00:51] and I'm the host of a show called the

[01:00:53] horror show stands for reddit readings

[01:00:55] we're going to sit down twice a week and I'm going

[01:00:57] to bring you the most entertaining

[01:00:59] stories from all of the best

[01:01:01] subreddits that exist

[01:01:03] online things like malicious compliance

[01:01:05] petty revenge hey lady

[01:01:07] I don't work here

[01:01:09] there's so much more lots of great stories

[01:01:11] and things you won't believe like the one time

[01:01:13] this dude was caught in a bathroom

[01:01:15] with his friend and he was slapping

[01:01:17] them because that was the only way that he

[01:01:19] could actually legitimately help them

[01:01:21] a mall cop comes in with the taser

[01:01:23] oh yeah the rest is history it's going to be fun

[01:01:25] there is a

[01:01:27] I don't know I got like 20 seconds left so I don't

[01:01:29] have much more time to tell you another story but just

[01:01:31] join me on the rr show

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