396: From Jon Stewart to 'True Detective', How the 2024 US Election & this Political Moment is Reflected in Popular Culture. Guest: Eric Deggans, NPR's TV Critic & Media Analyst.

[00:00:00] This is Pop Culture Confidential, and I'm Christina Yearling-Biru.

[00:00:30] What themes of the moment are TV creators with shows like True Detective and Fargo Exploring?

[00:00:36] I have one of the best with me here to help us navigate these big questions.

[00:00:41] Eric DeGins, NPR's TV critic and media analyst, and author of Racebader, How Media Wheels Dangerous

[00:00:49] Words to Divide a Nation.

[00:00:51] Just a note, Eric and I talk about the run-up to NBC's controversial decision to hire former

[00:00:58] Republican National Committee Chair, Rana McDaniel, as a contributor.

[00:01:03] Just a few hours after our conversation, NBC reversed its decision to hire McDaniel.

[00:01:10] Let's dive in.

[00:01:12] Eric, welcome back.

[00:01:14] Thank you so much for joining me for this.

[00:01:16] You always come to me with the small questions.

[00:01:19] I appreciate that.

[00:01:21] You need to solve the bigger issues.

[00:01:23] We're going to talk about the minor, small problems affecting media and society today.

[00:01:31] I'm here for it.

[00:01:32] I'm here for it.

[00:01:33] I want to start here as of course there's a Trump and Biden rematch.

[00:01:39] Someone who's also back is John Stewart.

[00:01:41] He's back behind the Daily Show desk after more than eight years away.

[00:01:46] He's committed to host Mondays as well as produce the show during the selection cycle.

[00:01:51] He's been back a few weeks now.

[00:01:52] Eric, how is he doing?

[00:01:54] So far it seems to have worked out really well.

[00:01:58] One of the things that I've talked about is that I did a piece on Rewood Jr. former Daily

[00:02:08] Show correspondent when he was still on the show and I hung out with him a little bit

[00:02:11] when he was actually guest hosting the show.

[00:02:14] So leading up to that, I looked at the ratings for all the people who had guest hosted before

[00:02:18] he did it.

[00:02:20] He did it around April, early April of last year and then it had guest hosts since January

[00:02:26] of that year.

[00:02:29] The guest host who got the biggest ratings was actually Al Franken.

[00:02:34] My theory about that is that Al Franken's fans were older and they were still watching

[00:02:41] the show on cable television.

[00:02:44] I think one of the big problems that the Daily Show has had, every late night show has

[00:02:50] this problem but the Daily Show in particular because under Trevor Noah they had focused

[00:02:55] the show on younger viewers and younger viewers have stopped watching cable television.

[00:03:01] They've stopped watching traditional television broadcast and cable.

[00:03:04] They watch everything via streaming.

[00:03:07] So people were watching the Daily Show on YouTube.

[00:03:09] They were watching the Daily Show on TikTok.

[00:03:12] And we're watching it on all these platforms that don't translate into Nielsen ratings,

[00:03:16] which is where the show makes its money.

[00:03:18] What's great about Judge Stewart's return is that he still has a lot of traditional television

[00:03:25] watching fans.

[00:03:27] So that is super charged the show's ratings and it's had a halo effect where the different

[00:03:35] correspondents host the show Tuesday through Thursday and those higher ratings carry forward

[00:03:42] into when they're hosting.

[00:03:44] They're not as high as when John hosts but they're higher than they were when they just

[00:03:50] had guest hosts.

[00:03:51] And I think that's part of the reason John has convinced traditional TV watchers to start

[00:03:57] watching the Daily Show again.

[00:03:59] So not only do they have really good numbers online but they have really good numbers in

[00:04:04] traditional television.

[00:04:07] And he's come back with something to say.

[00:04:10] His first monologue or his first, I don't know, segment was about the debate over Biden's

[00:04:18] age versus Trump's age.

[00:04:21] And I thought it was very savvy and picking that subject because it was a subject where

[00:04:26] it was it was valid to criticize Biden for the way his team is communicated about his

[00:04:33] age and for the fact that he is at an advanced age.

[00:04:38] And you can see it in how he moves through the world.

[00:04:44] But also reminding the viewers, you know, Trump is only a few years younger.

[00:04:51] He's had a lot of public moments where he seems to also have trouble connecting his thoughts

[00:04:57] and trouble talking and trouble reasoning about things.

[00:05:02] And of course, he has all of his problems, all his legal problems, all the fines, all

[00:05:11] the judgments against him.

[00:05:13] He's been found civilly liable for sexually assaulting a woman, all these things.

[00:05:20] But there are some criticisms about how Biden has handled the age issue.

[00:05:26] And so by choosing that topic, he came forward with something where he could credibly kind

[00:05:32] of make fun of Democrats and Republicans, make fun of Biden and Trump, deliver this sort

[00:05:38] of telling analysis.

[00:05:40] And something that he knew probably would anger liberals who were ready to embrace him

[00:05:45] when he came back.

[00:05:47] But it was controversial enough.

[00:05:49] I mean, you know, Christina, you know this now.

[00:05:53] He sells controversy produces engagement, which produces page views, which produces

[00:05:59] audience.

[00:06:01] And so he needed to come back with something that wouldn't just be preaching to the choir.

[00:06:07] And that presentation was absolutely that.

[00:06:12] And then he's gone on to articulate some really interesting ideas, including just this

[00:06:17] past Monday where he talked about Donald Trump's latest legal issues and took on this idea

[00:06:25] that his fraud in New York was a victimless crime and debunking that idea.

[00:06:31] So it was, you know, I think he's had a really great run so far.

[00:06:35] I think the only fly in the ointment for the Daily Show is that he may be proving week after

[00:06:40] week that the only person who can really host the Daily Show and have produced significant

[00:06:46] ratings is John Stewart.

[00:06:49] And what happens when we pass the election, when he's supposed to stop hosting, what's

[00:06:57] going to happen to this show?

[00:06:59] And you know, I did an interview with Dolce Sloan who was a correspondent on the show

[00:07:03] and I sort of asked her about, you know, what's it like now that John is back.

[00:07:11] And you know, her reply, you know she was joking but she was also a little serious

[00:07:15] when she said, you know, well now people know we won't get canceled.

[00:07:19] And so I think, you know, John obviously loves the Daily Show and obviously feels a connection

[00:07:27] and loyalty to the people who work there.

[00:07:29] So I think he realizes that if he steps away from the show and they don't have another

[00:07:34] host, Sotletly Chosen, it could be a serious problem.

[00:07:39] So it'll be interesting.

[00:07:41] I mean, that's a decision in the distance for them.

[00:07:45] And it's hard to know what to do.

[00:07:47] You know, everybody's been so focused on seeing what this new iteration of the show is

[00:07:53] going to be like and how it's performing but you know they don't have to find permanent

[00:07:59] hosts.

[00:08:00] Right.

[00:08:01] Right.

[00:08:02] You were mentioning the others, Colbert, Seth Meyers, the Jimmy's and I'd like to mention

[00:08:06] SNL there as well.

[00:08:07] Do you see a difference in how they're sort of comedy, how they're covering this is

[00:08:12] opposed to 2000?

[00:08:14] Well, SNL I think it's a different beast than the other programs you mentioned not just

[00:08:19] because it's a very different program but also because SNL is in a very different place.

[00:08:26] It's very much in a sort of rebuilding mode.

[00:08:29] You know, they have a bunch of new people.

[00:08:32] They have a gigantic cast and they have not figured out how they want to talk about the

[00:08:38] modern political moment.

[00:08:41] And so you get a lot of shows where there's a lot of okay stuff but nothing that really

[00:08:47] penetrates.

[00:08:48] I mean, one of the things that SNL used to do really well was come up with a way of

[00:08:55] making fun of a politician that became that politician's image.

[00:09:01] So you know, like Tina Fey was doing in all these.

[00:09:05] Well, I would say going all the way back to when Chevy Chase made fun of Gerald Ford and

[00:09:10] you know, Dana Carvey's impersonation of George H. W. Bush, Will Ferrell's impersonation

[00:09:18] of George W. Bush, Tina Fey's impersonation of Sarah Payland.

[00:09:22] You know, they all managed to crystallize things that we always suspected about these

[00:09:28] politicians and really make fun of them.

[00:09:32] And I think even though they currently have a performer who does a great Donald Trump,

[00:09:41] we've already seen Donald Trump's hypocrisies and foibles and weirdness encapsulated in

[00:09:47] great impersonations from several other people including Alok Baldwin and Darrell Hammon.

[00:09:53] So they have a great Trump which is wonderful but that's nothing new.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:59] And they haven't really figured out, you know, they don't have a great Joe Biden.

[00:10:04] They don't, you know, they've had a succession of people play him and they haven't never found

[00:10:08] anything that really sticks with the public.

[00:10:11] And so, you know, part of their challenge, I mean it's weird to bring it down to impressions

[00:10:16] but once they find someone who can crystallize a take on one of the biggest politicians

[00:10:22] of the moment, that helps focus their comedy and then all of a sudden you get these great

[00:10:26] sketches that lampoon where we are and they just have not figured that out yet.

[00:10:34] And so I think it's meant that their political comedy has kind of felt aimless.

[00:10:40] And so they just haven't produced anything that's really insensitive or kind of resonates.

[00:10:46] And the only thing that's resonating now is the controversy over some of their hosts including

[00:10:51] Shane Gillis.

[00:10:53] With the other shows, they've all kind of leaned into politics to one extent or another

[00:11:00] and they're all threatened by the decline in traditional viewing.

[00:11:05] How do these increasingly middle-aged white male late-night hosts speak to an increasingly

[00:11:14] diverse youthful audience that is watching them on platforms where the network does not

[00:11:21] own nearly the amount of profit that they would earn on those viewers if they actually

[00:11:27] watch them on their TV networks where they are based.

[00:11:33] And it's just a problem that just keeps getting worse and there's not much that they can

[00:11:38] really do about it.

[00:11:40] Before we get into some drama shows I want to talk to you about, I wanted to ask about

[00:11:44] something that happened yesterday or few days ago and that's NBC's hiring of Ronan

[00:11:49] McDaniel who was the former chairman of the Republican National Committee and this has caused

[00:11:56] a lot of consternation.

[00:11:58] Talk a little bit about why.

[00:12:00] Sure.

[00:12:01] So, yeah, Ronan McDaniel was hired by NBC to be an analyst, an expert I guess.

[00:12:13] There's been some reporting Dylan Byers, the reporter who writes for Putt claims that

[00:12:18] she's being paid $300,000 for this.

[00:12:22] And the issue for a lot of journalists that work at NBC News is that she's hired by

[00:12:29] a news organization but when she was the head of the RNC, she had helped support Donald

[00:12:37] Trump's efforts to overturn the election that Jabbayden won fairly and seems to have

[00:12:47] been involved with the effort to get a bunch of fake electors to show up and claim that

[00:12:54] they were the people who should be voting in the electoral college so that they could swing

[00:13:00] the vote for Donald Trump.

[00:13:03] So, to have someone who seems to have been involved in a plot to overturn a free and

[00:13:10] unfair election and who has in the past supported Donald Trump's lies about the 2020 election

[00:13:17] not being valid to have that person be hired by a news organization and pay to significant

[00:13:22] sum at a time when other people are getting laid off.

[00:13:27] Just seemed like a really terrible idea to a lot of people who worked at NBC News and

[00:13:36] particularly at MSNBC because the head of MSNBC has come out and said that they will not book her on their shows.

[00:13:48] It's freed up the talent that work at MSNBC to be quite vocal about how they felt hiring her was a bad idea.

[00:13:57] So, Joe Scarborough and Nico Rizinski and Jen Socky and Rachel Maddow in particular spent

[00:14:05] more than 20 minutes on her show this past Monday criticizing the idea, calling it a mistake and saying

[00:14:16] that she hoped that the leadership at NBC News would reconsider once they had time to think

[00:14:21] and realize that it was a terrible idea.

[00:14:24] And so, it's interesting.

[00:14:27] I can't recall the time when someone was hired.

[00:14:31] I mean, they've been controversial hires where people from politics have tried to cross over into news.

[00:14:37] But people had sort of gotten used to the idea that folks whose time as a political operative

[00:14:44] had kind of ended would then get these cushy jobs where they would be political analysts for a news outlet.

[00:14:51] And generally their job is to not only talk a little bit about politics from an insider's perspective

[00:14:59] but part of their job is to also give the news organization a deeper connection inside the party

[00:15:04] where that person had been working. So, if somebody like Donna Brazil gets hired by CNN as an expert

[00:15:11] part of her job is to sort of help them reach out to other Democrats and get a sense of what's

[00:15:16] happening. You know she can sit in on news meetings and sort of say well you know here's what's

[00:15:21] happening on the surface. But you know I know these people I know how they think

[00:15:24] and this is probably what's going on and maybe I can call around a little bit and find out what's

[00:15:28] happening. And do you think this was the idea that the leadership may have had in this higher?

[00:15:34] Why don't know exactly what they would have asked her to do but generally that is what

[00:15:39] those kinds of analysts are expected to do. They're not just hired to be on camera.

[00:15:45] They're not paid that amount of money just to go on during panel shows and say what they think.

[00:15:50] Part of their job is also to help the news outlet figure out what's happening behind the scenes

[00:15:56] and help them figure out how to report on stories and get a sense.

[00:16:02] You know in a sense, Ronald McDaniel might have been the most prominent kind of free agent

[00:16:10] person who was close to Donald Trump at one time. She might not necessarily be that close with him

[00:16:15] now. I mean he did you know have her forced out of the RNC but at one time she was particularly

[00:16:22] close to him and I'm sure they were thinking here's a way to get somebody working in NBC News who

[00:16:26] knows all these people, who knows how they think and can help us figure out how to reach research

[00:16:31] stories. But the big problem that they have is that she has a long track record of saying and

[00:16:39] doing things that are not particularly in line with NBC News journalism ethics. And it's one thing

[00:16:47] the hire somebody who was a political operative and they did their job as a political operative.

[00:16:53] And now they've decided to kind of leave that world in there working for you as an analyst.

[00:16:58] And it's but that's different than hiring somebody who may have been involved with subverting an

[00:17:04] election, particularly when you know the core of a traditional news outlet is to uphold the

[00:17:12] institutions of democracy. And particularly when you know Trump and Trump world has been very focused

[00:17:19] on trying to invalidate the power of traditional news organizations because they don't like the way

[00:17:25] traditional news organizations hold them to account and report independently on what they do.

[00:17:30] And so to take someone from that world and hand them a bunch of money and say come work for us

[00:17:36] you know their credibility isn't great. And it damages the credibility of the larger news

[00:17:44] organization and you know a lot of journalists there were worried about that. And part of the dilemma

[00:17:50] you could see Meet the Press reportedly had booked Toronto, McDaniel long before it was known

[00:17:59] as she was going to be working at NBC News but her appearance on Meet the Press came right after

[00:18:05] news broke that she had been higher. And so then Kristen Wilker the host of Meet the Press had to

[00:18:10] grill her on all her past opinions and try to get her to say okay you believe Joe Biden was

[00:18:17] fairly elected president and you know did you participate in you know the effort to overturn

[00:18:23] the election? And you know all of it had to sort of try to rehabilitate her image by grilling her

[00:18:31] on all these questionable things that she had been involved with. And you know ideally if you

[00:18:36] hire somebody and you pay them more than a quarter million dollar salary you don't have to

[00:18:41] you know sort of vet them or inoculate them from criticism by having a contentious interview

[00:18:47] with them the first time they appear on your platforms after their hiring has been announced.

[00:18:55] The fact that they had to do all that tells you how you know the damage her credibility was

[00:19:03] even going into this agreement and that made people scratch their heads you know why at a time

[00:19:07] when so many great journalists, Pulitzer winning journalists are losing jobs or taking pay cuts or

[00:19:14] you know seeing their roles dial size. Why are you handing this much money to someone who isn't

[00:19:19] a journalist and who has you know really questionable credibility?

[00:19:26] I'm Ken Harbaugh host of Warriors in their own words, a podcast that presents the unvarnished

[00:19:31] unsanitized truth of what we have asked of those who defend this nation. As a country we need these

[00:19:37] stories more than ever, stories from Americans who have borne the battle including 30-year-old

[00:19:43] remastered interviews with veterans from World War One recounting their time in the trenches of

[00:19:48] Europe and with veterans from World War Two, Korea, Vietnam and from our most recent conflicts in

[00:19:54] Iraq, Afghanistan and other battlefields Americans may never have heard of. Hear their stories by

[00:20:00] listening to Warriors in their own words wherever you find podcasts. Just one more question about

[00:20:08] the talk shows of the more comedian aspects of this juicy in their material and the jimmies

[00:20:16] and the cold bears. How they're actually tackling this election. After January I think that's

[00:20:22] lots of things happen this time if there's been a change in how they want to approach the landscape

[00:20:28] in general. I mean you know my sense is that you know they do what they do what they do what they do

[00:20:35] and it's all about meeting the moment and trying to talk about what's happening and you know

[00:20:40] in the background is the sense among liberals at least that democracy is on the ballot and that

[00:20:50] you know because of what Trump has said he will do if he gets elected president again there's

[00:20:56] real concern about the independence of the Justice Department about freedom of the press, about

[00:21:05] free and fair elections, whether he would ever voluntarily leave power again if he's actually

[00:21:11] elected president. And so that's in the background of I think everything that they're joking about

[00:21:16] in a way that it wasn't when Trump was actually president because I think even then people

[00:21:25] couldn't people might joke about how he would never leave but they couldn't really imagine the

[00:21:30] lengths that he would go to to not relinquish power and I don't think anybody you know well I wouldn't

[00:21:38] say anybody but I don't think amongst the late-night hosts that they seriously thought for example

[00:21:42] that he would inspire a crowd to attack the Capitol until it happened. So so you know everybody I

[00:21:50] think kind of it's about the stakes you know we can constantly hear journalism ethicists talk about how

[00:21:57] you know journalists covering the election should talk about the stakes of the election

[00:22:01] and not horse race journalism who's ahead and who's not. And I think the late-night hosts have also

[00:22:08] shifted to talking about the stakes of this election in a way that's a little more intense than

[00:22:14] maybe they had before but it's just about meeting the moment, it's just about talking about you.

[00:22:18] Yeah that's my feeling too. Let's turn to drama of course you know drama productions film and TV

[00:22:24] have a long production cycle so it's not something happening out but I'm still interested in hearing

[00:22:28] air because you always have such great theories about different things is what we're seeing right now

[00:22:34] what people are watching be it three body problem on Netflix or the regime. I was thinking about

[00:22:39] Fargo the other day this last season if you can see anything that's sort of in the air of the moment

[00:22:45] of the issues we're dealing with. Well again you know sort of dealing with authoritarianism and

[00:22:52] and dealing with tribalism. I think those things have kind of been in the air since

[00:22:59] Trump was president. You know his election I think prompted a lot of artists to take a look

[00:23:07] at how authoritarian styles of governing become popular in democracies. And what do you do when

[00:23:17] an authoritarian kind of gains power like how do you if you're somebody who believes in democracy

[00:23:25] how do you react and I think you know a lot of the several were two set dramas that we've seen

[00:23:34] recently. I'm blanking on the name of the one that was recently.

[00:23:38] Masters of the air? No no masters of the air is is Apple TV plus and that's different that's

[00:23:44] about warfare. But I'm thinking more about the new look on Apple TV plus. I'm thinking about

[00:23:52] the zone of interest to film that was recently an Oscar contender and won an Oscar and I'm thinking

[00:23:58] all the light we see is that right right yeah on Netflix. You know those shows are all about

[00:24:05] you know you have this brutal authoritarian power that is in your environment and that is dangerous

[00:24:12] and how do you negotiate that? How do you oppose it if you're opposing it or how do you survive it

[00:24:19] you know what does it mean? How do you know what does it do to to your to the world? What does it

[00:24:27] do to society to have this thing going on? And so you know we've seen a lot I think of

[00:24:33] TV shows kind of grapple with that even the regime is kind of about that. So I'm critic who wrote

[00:24:40] that you know it's a comedy about what might happen if Trump gets elected again and you know you

[00:24:48] could certainly look at that and say you know that's probably why they thought this comedy was

[00:24:54] appropriate to try and tackle in this moment because there are all these people who see authoritarian

[00:25:02] tendencies and think well here's a guy who'll come in and make everything work and it makes you

[00:25:07] sort of understand one of the things that I think is sometimes hard for Americans to understand

[00:25:14] is that authoritarian's rule in some places because a lot of the people who live there want them

[00:25:21] in power they they agree with their views on issues or they agree with their views enough

[00:25:27] that they're willing to have them in power because there's a sense that they bring order

[00:25:32] and and so the way that authoritarian's take power is by creating chaos where they are based

[00:25:40] and then presenting themselves as the only solution to that chaos and we've seen it in a lot of

[00:25:46] different places and it's happening in America now and so of course artists will

[00:25:53] find a way to talk about those themes and in other fictional fictionalized works and that so we

[00:25:59] seen some of that you know that's that's been and even Dune is like cautionary tale sort of yeah

[00:26:05] but but that message in Dune won't really emerge unless they do the third film

[00:26:12] the the the second film is it is kind of different it doesn't really you you have this foreboding

[00:26:21] sense that elevating the the lead character is a mistake but but isn't that where we've been

[00:26:28] this foreboding sense well but in the case of of Trump we we know we know what he's capable of

[00:26:37] because he was president already and a case of Paula Trady's nothing to get too thick in in

[00:26:42] the weeds um we like that he just has these visions and and and he's and he's a reluctant

[00:26:51] authoritarian and a bizarre way you know he he understands the cost of being elevated

[00:26:58] and and but he's in a world where he he wants his revenge and the chaos is real so you know it's

[00:27:06] I think it's it's a slightly different situation but I mean I understand why it makes sense that

[00:27:11] that again that movie would come forward but um but I don't think we'll get the cautionary

[00:27:16] tale about authoritarianism until if they if they get to make they probably get to make it they

[00:27:20] will it's been a success i'm pretty sure yeah yeah as many he says well you know but you never

[00:27:25] you mean I tell you you never know i mean euphoria you know there's a lot of doubt that there's

[00:27:30] going to be a third season the next show it's pretty successful so so uh see you never know but um

[00:27:37] but that's that's one thing that we're that we're seeing a lot of that i think is is really interesting

[00:27:43] the other thing that i've been really interested in is seeing how indigenous culture has played a

[00:27:49] pivotal role and a lot of interesting shows that we've seen recently including true detective

[00:27:54] night country echo on disney plus um it's it's uh you know it helped reinvent true detective

[00:28:04] from an anthology series that was very much about the male gaze and about how men feel about things

[00:28:10] to making it a female centered show that and and and and and a show centered on indigenous culture

[00:28:18] and and it was very much about how women and about how uh indigenous people see things

[00:28:23] and and um and it reinvented uh the genre and and it's proof of something that i've been saying

[00:28:31] uh for quite a long time almost since i started covering television in 1997 which is that by adding

[00:28:40] diversity you create better product it's not just about i'm always being an an advocate of inclusion

[00:28:49] because um it makes journalism more accurate and it makes scripted and fictional works uh more

[00:28:58] expansive it expands the possibilities and it expands your your ability to surprise audiences

[00:29:05] because you don't go into a movie or tv show knowing who the hero is knowing who the villain is knowing

[00:29:11] how the story's gonna play out because you you might be seeing it through the eyes of a different culture

[00:29:17] you know you watch true detective night country some things happen during it and you're not sure if

[00:29:22] they're actually happening if they're happening because people are hallucinating or because they

[00:29:26] have mental illnesses or if they're happening because the spirit world is reaching into the actual

[00:29:31] world and and having an impact on people and the show itself doesn't really resolve those questions

[00:29:39] you have to watch it and kind of decide for yourself what you think is happening um and that's a

[00:29:45] really exciting thing to present to audiences who are so sophisticated now that they can watch five

[00:29:51] minutes of a police procedural and tell you who the the criminal is uh unless the the show unless

[00:30:00] the story that's in that procedural is so bizarre and twisted that no one could guess it and then

[00:30:06] that's that's sort of the the point of it yet the amount of shit that is alopeas and the rest of

[00:30:14] the creators on um true detective had to take because of all the issues with that being female

[00:30:22] dominated show and everything was really sad to see well what was sad was that the

[00:30:27] nick pizalato the guy who had uh the original show um became uh you know an instigator of this stuff

[00:30:36] and he you know um looking at his IMDB page there's a sense that he hasn't really done anything since

[00:30:44] the first season of true detective that's been nearly as successful and rather than he still

[00:30:50] listed as an executive producer on the show and rather than sit back and enjoy the way that

[00:30:56] someone clearly paid close attention to the first season of true detective created a show that in

[00:31:02] some ways was a homage that in some ways was a mirror image then in some ways was in conversation

[00:31:09] with that first season rather than sit back and enjoy that see that uh so many critics and viewers

[00:31:16] seem to like it and say you know good on you you you did a good job taking something that

[00:31:22] that i started and taking it to a different place rather than doing that being generous

[00:31:29] implying on social media that he didn't like the changes that were made that had cheap in the show

[00:31:34] and and and giving all those you know trolls out there who just wanted to tear down

[00:31:42] uh a female centered show giving them the justification to kind of go after isalopeas the new

[00:31:48] showrunner and and go after the cast it was just so sad to watch it was just wanting to watch

[00:31:57] and so surprising because you know there's plenty of situations in show business where people

[00:32:02] just keep their mouth shut and they get their check and even if they're kind of bother what

[00:32:06] happened about what happens they understand that um the polite thing to do is to just sit back

[00:32:12] and let it happen and uh and enjoy the fact that you still get a a piece of the success of the show

[00:32:20] um so i don't know you know that whole thing was very distasteful and and you know i i got just

[00:32:26] a sliver of that because um you know i posted and commented a few times i did an episode of

[00:32:34] the impure podcast pop culture happy hour will recryticize pizalato for what he was doing

[00:32:40] and and that started an online conversation on my x-lash twitter page that brought a lot of vitriol

[00:32:46] my way and so i just got a sense of a sliver of what they must have been enduring and uh it was

[00:32:53] just really sad because you know you could tell in the first two episodes of the show that it was

[00:32:58] really a triumph of a reinvention and that jody foster was knocking out of parking kelly race the

[00:33:05] um you know women who then um played the indigenous character was just uh matching jody foster you

[00:33:14] know i mean being able to hold the screen with a talent as experienced and as boundless as jody

[00:33:20] foster is no mean feat and and she did a great job holding those scenes with her and and giving

[00:33:28] back as good as she got and you could tell the two of them there was a chemistry there and it was

[00:33:33] and that's important you know because that's you know that's at the heart of true detective is two

[00:33:38] different uh two very different police officers pursuing the same case and their differences

[00:33:45] producing this chemistry that becomes uh very watchable every that's the consistency even though

[00:33:53] every episode of true detective has been sent in very different circumstances that's always been

[00:33:57] the constant and they've really managed an amazing job in putting these two people together inside

[00:34:03] this really unique interesting story and to have all of that kind of get impugned by the guy who

[00:34:09] can figure out how to make a fourth season that was um you know uh nearly as captivating was was

[00:34:15] was really uh disappointed and i want to mention to your point of great shows event reservation dogs

[00:34:22] which i thought was amazing in terms of your name and of course killers of the flower moon um what

[00:34:27] about the topic of disinformation and fake news and things like that which of course has been a

[00:34:32] topic for like have you been seeing that in any drama oh and any dramas misinformation disinformation

[00:34:38] that's a good question i mean i'm sure it's being dealt with then sort of like the procedural shows

[00:34:44] let's try to think of a larger series and as i was mentioning at the top i thought this season of

[00:34:50] Fargo was really tackling um some of the issues of the moment yeah toxic masculinity and the cold

[00:34:57] like devotion that some people have to super conservative figures yeah absolutely um yeah i can't

[00:35:04] think of right now off the top of my head i can't think of a major tv project that is centered on

[00:35:10] disinformation in the way that you know uh toxic masculinity is a big part of what Fargo's talking about

[00:35:16] her um you know the power of uh you know womanhood is at the center of true detective i'm sure

[00:35:26] a there's probably some projects out there that i'm just not thinking of and b i'm sure some people

[00:35:30] are working on it um you know misinformation and disinformation can be elements of stories

[00:35:37] you know in the regime for example you know you see how she has control of the media and um

[00:35:43] and so i think we've seen that kind of thing where you know at misinformation to disinformation

[00:35:49] was a part of succession's story for example you know because that family controlled um a right

[00:35:55] leaning uh cable news network and we saw how they um you know covered a contingent selection

[00:36:03] and it offered a lot of cautionary tales about what might happen in our own contingent selection

[00:36:09] that's coming up uh but i can't think of a show where that is the center and i think that might be

[00:36:15] i think it might be because it's you know it might be hard to to really make um an entire movie or

[00:36:24] an entire tv show about that subject and it's much easier to make the film of the tv show about

[00:36:31] the result of the misinformation rather than the actual misinformation itself blockbuster tv show

[00:36:38] that is centered on misinformation and disinformation and i and i know i you know i don't say that

[00:36:42] trying to joke because i think you're right it's a major theme and and i and i noted i think about

[00:36:47] i'm surprised that there hasn't been uh one that i can remember um you know maybe we'll think of it

[00:36:53] we'll probably think of it when the interview's over we will and then we'll have to go ahead

[00:36:58] and be like we were such an idiot we forgot you know what's interesting to me i think i see this

[00:37:03] happening much more in the um non-fiction documentary space where um documentarians are going back

[00:37:12] and looking at things that we enjoyed 20 years ago and pointing out all the toxic and terrible

[00:37:18] things that we kind of glossed over back then and we saw it happen of course with archaea and

[00:37:26] surviving archaea and we saw it happen with Britney Spears and most recently we saw it happen

[00:37:32] with Nickelodeon with the docuseries quiet on set where they went back and talked about a period

[00:37:38] about 20 years ago when Nickelodeon was the king of kids tv and the main showrunner who helped them

[00:37:48] maintain that status was somebody who had a lot of allegations of toxic behavior behind the scenes

[00:37:55] and then you know separately there was an issue with Drake Bell the star of one of their shows

[00:38:01] who who said that he was sexually assaulted by a dialogue coach repeatedly um and and that person

[00:38:10] was prosecuted the the dialogue coach was prosecuted in serve time in jail but the identity of

[00:38:16] the person that he molested was never was not revealed in court and and Drake Bell came forward

[00:38:22] publicly to say he was that person in this docuseries so you know that's kind of where we are now

[00:38:29] with some of this stuff is that the docuseries are really looking back at politicians and politics

[00:38:36] and pop culture from 20 years ago and saying hey you know we may have thought this stuff was okay but now

[00:38:42] that we've been through the Me Too movement now that we have much more diversity in um in all of film

[00:38:53] and Hollywood and we have different people who can look at this stuff and get film projects made

[00:38:58] and TV projects made let's look at these things with a different lens so even there's a recent

[00:39:04] documentary about this festival called Freak Nick that would be amazing if you've heard of it

[00:39:09] nope so I went to college um in through the 80s um and in the 80s and early 90s in particular

[00:39:19] there was this festival that was originally organized by historically black colleges in Atlanta

[00:39:25] during spring break um that was supposed to be you know um there's always this ritual in college

[00:39:31] you get time off uh for spring break in the middle of a semester and people go party they go to

[00:39:38] Florida or they go you know the Caribbean or something you know black college students were looking

[00:39:44] for a place to go that they could call their own and so this festival called Freak Nick got created

[00:39:50] and that was where black college students went and it started with historically black colleges when

[00:39:55] they first started it but then it became this huge festival where you know if you were a black kid

[00:40:00] in college you always hearing about man you gotta go to Freak Nick you gotta go to Freak Nick

[00:40:04] and it became a street festival that just took over Atlanta and you would have people party in

[00:40:11] and cars you know you would have um women and men you know kind of hitting on each other and you

[00:40:18] would have you know um the uh rap artist especially in Atlanta started to realize hey these are the

[00:40:24] people who are listening to our music so they would give out Freak Assets so that's how outcast for

[00:40:29] example um you know we first started to spread word about what they were doing and and you could tell

[00:40:35] people would really like a sampler because uh they would hand it out and then it would become popular

[00:40:41] and then suddenly you'd have these big traffic jams and everybody would be bumping the same song

[00:40:46] because everybody thought it was cool it was just this huge communal event that um the featured black

[00:40:52] culture but then it started out of control and there were very public events where women were

[00:40:57] sexually assaulted and uh and then the police had to crack down and particularly when in Lanna got

[00:41:03] the the Olympics they decided to make it really hard to have uh Freak Nick in Atlanta

[00:41:10] and the whole thing kind of fell apart there's a documentary out now about that

[00:41:15] and and and looking back on it again you know you're looking back about 30 years in this case

[00:41:23] and and you see things with a little different eye when you're an adult and you see where everything

[00:41:27] has gone and you know you understand how women were objectified during that whole process and

[00:41:33] and uh you know as fun as it could be how tough it could be for a city to just have this flood of young

[00:41:41] botquist to send on it and and and do things their way you know um so you know I see this happening

[00:41:52] in the docu-series space right now and and it's really interesting and and and i can't wait to see

[00:41:58] what other things documentarians are going to have us re-examine because they really deserve it

[00:42:04] it's it's a fertile grant and you know with quite on set for example um we need it's a message that

[00:42:11] we need to pay attention to how children uh young performers are being treated right now

[00:42:17] and uh it's something that even though we talk a lot about child actors who grew up and then

[00:42:23] have dysfunctional adult lives we don't spend a lot of time looking out for the current children

[00:42:29] performers we will look at these people who used to be child stars and we will document their

[00:42:35] every failing as an adult but we won't look at what the young performers right now uh are going

[00:42:41] through and whether they're being taken care of and i hope that quite on set you know inspires

[00:42:46] that kind of thing inspires people to really take a look at them and make sure in the same way that

[00:42:51] surviving our kelly uh eventually inspired uh legal charges against our kelly and um and the

[00:42:57] Britney Spears documentary inspired this drive to free her from the conservatorship she was in

[00:43:03] i hope so too um there's gonna be a lot to look back on from these years that we're talking about

[00:43:08] now Eric we'll see what what happens in popular culture it's always so interesting to talk to you

[00:43:13] and get your perspective thank you so much for joining me again

[00:43:17] thank you for having me thank you so much to Eric deganes you can follow his work read his reviews

[00:43:24] listen to interviews at npr.org and you can follow him on x formally twitter at deganes and thank

[00:43:33] you so much for listening subscribe to pop culture confidential wherever you get your podcasts

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[00:44:15] podcasts or find us on our website gen x grownup dot com all right i think that was good enough

[00:44:22] i hope so man i'm tired who listens to a promo in a podcast and then goes and listen to a different

[00:44:27] podcast i've never done it