Why Are Men Still Afraid of Women? | Patriarchy, Pleasure & Power ft. Eika Chaturvedi Banerjee

[00:00:00] So I want to ask you that if you look at these sculptures outside temples, the erotic sculptures, you can see female agency there. At what stage in our culture and our history did we lose agency and did the element of shame seep in? The moment we became domesticated and agrarian is when there was need for power.

[00:00:26] Because that's when you started occupying land, living on the land, tilling the land, owning the land. Swimmbar is fascinating me. How do you see Swimmbar fitting in with the modern day dating app? So actually it is Swimmbar. Actually use technology, use it to your advantage. Fraun the fact that I went through or swiped through so many men or met so many of them before this one. I don't think that, like as a writer I don't attempt writing in a man's voice.

[00:00:55] But the difference is that men think that they know the voice. So you can't put a man in a conversation about women, identity and gender. You can't put a man in a conversation about women, a man in a man's voice. Yes, that's right.

[00:01:25] I have to go. Please record it. It's lovely. We'll see you after exactly 24 hours. Very long time. A series of what time in a larger scale? By the way, after our conversation yesterday, I had a conversation on Bharat,

[00:01:52] the civilizational journey across space and beyond time. Oh, that'll be interesting to hear about. Yeah. I think it just got very, it was nice, but I think a bit too loud. Okay. Who were your panelists? All men. You were the sole person holding up the flag for diversity on that panel? That was meant to be a voice panel. Like we were doing the girls panel. By the way, I got a lot of feedback for the girls panel saying that we should have maybe had a token man

[00:02:20] and I realized that we shouldn't have had because then he would have just followed our narrative. I don't think a man among three women or four women, will necessarily give us the male point of view. They will give the right point of view, the good thing. Also, they don't get it. You know, I mean, I don't think that, like as a writer, I don't attempt writing in a man's voice. Right? Because I feel I'll never really... You will not know that. Know that. But the difference is that men think that they know the voice.

[00:02:50] You know what I'm saying? They know everything. And then they were like, you all just... So the other day, I was speaking at a literature festival and our panel became a little feminist-y while it was actually meant to be about women in satire. But the whole tone and tenor changed. And then this nice, well-read, well-meaning gentleman in the front row got up and said that, you know, but men are not like that and we do this and we have this and we have that. And though, you know,

[00:03:19] we always have this disclaimer that firstly, it's not all about men and men and... Bitchyaki is not about men. Alone. But you can see that they don't get it. So when they don't get it, they think it's a rant. That they're complaining. You know? So I think that when women are having certain conversations, it's like... If you're having Bengalis talk about the state of Bengal, you cannot put a Punjabi there. So you can't put a man in a conversation about women,

[00:03:49] identity and gender. It's not fair either. You know, in fact, and I've been meaning to talk about this. Edit, feel free to edit it later because this might be a provocative conversation. No, but this is actually a better conversation than the leadership conversation. Okay. Good. So, and it may involve very few, very little of ancient wisdom, but it brings us out well enough, but it's provocative. You know, so I've been doing

[00:04:18] this whole research around patriarchy and my curiosity question or starting point was how is it that 50% of the population felt the need to be above, beyond and more superior to the remaining 50% of the population. Normally, when you find power dynamics, it's about a majority or a minority. It is about something someone has and someone doesn't have. But this is 50% of the population. There is no, there is no statistical need for this narrative.

[00:04:48] And this population wouldn't exist without the remaining 50% who have birthed them. Okay. Birthed them, raised them, but look, they're just 50% of the same order of genus of animal species. Yeah. So, I went down deep into patriarchy and the origin of it. Here's what's fascinating that clearly it's about power, expression of power. Of course. So, when you go down in the rabbit hole of power, you feel the need

[00:05:16] to express power over that which you fear. So, power and fear are two sides of the same point. So, think of a man who gives you a good car and therefore the need to control comes from fear. So, you give him a car that's really fancy and expensive toy and either he fears it and because he fears it or doesn't understand it, there's a need to control it. 100%. Yeah. He either wants to control it or destroy it. Yeah. Or keep it in his garage

[00:05:46] and take it out once in a blue moon. When he needs it. keep it hidden. Keep it hidden. Or keep it in the garage. Mother needs to control it. Or if he can't control it, master it, he will go smash it and destroy it. Yeah. Right. So, pretty much the same thing except the relationship with snake versus the relationship with the rabbit. A rabbit you don't feel threatened by. There's no need for him to control it. It's neutral. The snake, if you're terrified of, is the need to control it, crush it, kill it, smash it. Are you saying that women are snakes?

[00:06:17] We are just another set of creatures but we are not made to be so. But we are feared by men. But we are feared, there is a sense of fear, not by men. And here's where it gets up. Okay. Right? So, power and fear, two sides of the same this thing. Point. So, if power comes from fear, then I needed to go down the rabbit hole of fear. When you go down the rabbit hole of fear, you fear that which you don't understand or that which is unknown.

[00:06:47] So, if that snake is harmless or I can, in my mind, it's clean, it's a tree, then I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of a rabbit because I get it. I'm afraid of the snake because I don't get it. It has a form I can't understand. It has a material and substance I can't understand. It has qualities and I can't understand and to me, it's the demon and the animal. Okay. It's the monster

[00:07:17] that's going to fight me. So, you're saying that men don't understand women and that's where fear comes from? No, it's not men and women. So, again, I'm going to come back to taking out the gender. I'm taking out the gender. Sure. But there is clearly something if power and control comes from fear and fear comes from unknown or misunderstanding. So, clearly, there's something about this 50% of the population that is terrifying or unknown. So, then I went down into that. Babi told us,

[00:07:46] what is so terrifying? What is not understood? And here's where it got fascinating. You suddenly realized that the only difference between the male and the female of the species is two things. that men can't experience or understand. One is the whole process of creation. It's everything. Periods, breasts, pregnancy, childbirth, blah, blah, blah. And the other is the process of female pleasure. Absolutely.

[00:08:16] That scares them the most, I think. More than the childbirth and creation. And not only the question of paternity. Now, it's been on ownership. But ownership again goes back, right? Three levels up into power and control. That's where it went. Ownership was needed because the process was not understood. And you know what my epiphany on this was way back 30 years ago. I remember this. 30 years ago, it's been a long journey. It's been a very long journey, I promise. Yeah. I remember this B-school batch of mine.

[00:08:46] And you know, we were young then but we didn't really understand a lot about physical relationships and all of that. It really newered that. And I remember this friend of ours who was a little older and therefore very experienced and he was like the rock star in our lives. But I remember him saying this, you know, it's so fascinating Eka that at some point you will have a child. And I'm looking at him saying that, you know, 18 year old me doesn't want to go that path. But he sounded

[00:09:15] envious about it. He sounded so fascinated. He said, Eka, you will get pregnant, you will create life. And I'm saying, why is this 22 year old when I'm 18 year old so fascinated with it? I said, yeah, but isn't that something everyone will go through? He said, yeah, Eka, but I will never know. And I remembered this in this context when we were saying that fear of the unknown and like this is the other side of penis envy.

[00:09:47] I don't know if there was something that was to be made envious about it in the sense that, you know, obviously what's not what's not. But I think it was that narrative of the snake. I don't know how that snake behaves. I don't know how that car behaves. I don't understand what's in its engine that makes it so powerful. And now there's something happening that I can't be a part of. I've contributed to the process. I'm going to be involved in the child rearing, but I will

[00:10:16] never know the process of pregnancy. And you know what is even worse? is that it's not just 50% or whatever that the male population that doesn't understand it. We who go through it, women who go through it and experience it also don't own or understand either the process of creation or the process of female pleasure. It's a complex process. Why does this happen? I mean, given the fact that we're going through it,

[00:10:46] have we not allowed ourselves to investigate it? Has it been a taboo topic amongst ourselves? We don't have enough conversations and we still don't have enough conversations around it. Why do you think that is so? Because it can be so empowering. I think only now we've started talking about menopause, for instance. Childbirth, we still don't discuss at all. It's like natural birth control. If you tell a woman what you're really going to go through in childbirth, nobody will do it. But I have another view on this childbirth thing. Female pleasure, I can

[00:11:15] understand. It's this little mysterious. That's a thing. So let's take that out of the conversation. I just feel that women in the process of birthing and all that, we do take that reproductive function in our life for granted. Okay? And all female of the species go through it. So it is, and I don't, the men that I've encountered and not, I don't think they're mystified by it. Like, what is this process? And how does it feel? But I just feel that most men almost don't

[00:11:45] wish they had to go through this. So I think, or my sense of it is that they are mystified by it, yes, but they don't own it. It is something happening to somebody else and therefore it is un-understood. Therefore, it is the great unknown and it's something that they will never experience. That is true. So the magic and the mystery is what makes it

[00:12:15] unknown and therefore to be feared. That which we don't know, we don't fear. It's the dark, it's the monster under the bed. And it's the man fainting in the delivery rooms. It is, it is that, because it is very intense, right? Now here's where this rabbit hole goes even further and Kiran to answer to what you were saying. The fact is that in the last hundred years and you know, fifty years, hundred years, whatever, we've at least made that first step. That we'll wait

[00:12:45] till the men get it, but you who go through it, who experience this whole process, at least own it. Own it, embrace it, play with it. And you know, you can see a whole commercial market around actually both these themes, the theme of female pleasure as well as the theme of childbirth, you know, glory in it, knowledge around it, breaking the mystique around it. we've done a lot of work around at least having the women own it. And there's this whole space of women empowerment

[00:13:15] and at least you do it because it's with you. But now see the flip side of it. For the man, this was a sneak that he didn't understand and didn't get and didn't relate to. Not only that, we've said that he defy it. Now you thing, you do it and you go away. You know, worship it, defy it, respect it, respect the woman, consent, be part of that process

[00:13:45] etc. etc. Which makes it even more difficult because it's become even further and even more mystified around it. And so I'm thinking, therefore, everything that we've done about the women's female empowerment, which we must have caused women's empowerment, what are we doing to take our men along? In both those aspects. Do the men want to come along is the big question. It's not about whether they want it or don't want it.

[00:14:16] It needs to be as normal. And you know what, here's where our ancient texts come in because that's where I go for all my answers. And I realized that when we were in our ancient cultures and in our scriptures and whatever, we had temples, right? We've always spoken about how there is erotic architecture and sculpture on the temple etc. So somewhere our ancients had realized that like hunger thirst, like infertility and procreation is a human process.

[00:14:45] So it is as normal as educating you on the human birth and nourishment. Human birth is as normal a process. Now the moment and look at how beautifully it levels up. So I want to ask you that if you look at these sculptures outside temples, the erotic sculptures, you can see female agency there. Yes. Female pleasure is at an equal footing with male pleasure. Correct. And the understanding and knowledge of it. And queer pleasure. All kinds

[00:15:15] of pleasure. At what stage in our culture and our history did we lose agency and did the element of shame seep in? So the reason, okay, now there are three levels of answers to this. The first one is when we transitioned from hunter farmer economy to her domestic agrarian economy. Because that's when this, till we were hunter farmer and till we were primitive tribal foraging tribes, life is simple. And the

[00:15:44] family itself was an economic unit. The men went out, bought the meat, the men sort of cut. Perfect. The moment we became domesticated and agrarian is when there was need for power. Because that's when you started occupying land, living on the land, tilling the land, owning the land. So when the idea of ownership of land happened is when power equations needed to happen. And also the men

[00:16:14] went out. Therefore control. Tribals, the need for control. But they also went out as hunter-gatherers, no? They went out as hunter-gatherers, they came back. They didn't have ownership of everything. have ownership. You were moving. You were all of romantic cultures. But now you needed to own the land and therefore own the resources. So in fact, in all our ancient cultures across the world, the primitive deities are all the feminine goddesses. All the mother goddesses. But I thought that's again to do with

[00:16:44] fertility and harvest. Because that is what we used to celebrate as human beings. We had it right at some point of time. It is when we went out and we needed to control and own the narrative that it shifted. And therefore that brought me back again into saying that in our schooling, if you remember, that's where gender differences were very obvious. So we can't do this. We can, but it's a more difficult task to do this when it's an adult male. Because some notions have already been

[00:17:13] so primitive and primal and visceral to the idea of gender identity that the time to do this is in gender identity, which is when we are adolescents. So if you remember when we were in school, class 8, class 9, Johnson used to come and do those menstrual education, right? I was a poet. And I remember that day very distinctly we were class 8. And we were told that all the girls come for a session. So all the girls went for a session where we were taught menstrual hygiene. We were anyways

[00:17:42] uncomfortable with the idea, discovering and becoming familiar with this new creature that was emerging, this whole new physical process that was emerging. And on top of that, there was personal isolation anyways, personal disidentification, dysmorphia at some level. And then you also made it social, you made it public by calling out the girls and saying, come let me educate you on this. The boys weren't engaged, the boys weren't involved. Then when you went back, suddenly there was social dysmorphia.

[00:18:12] Because the boys were saying, what did they teach you? You couldn't talk to them about it. It was personal shame being made public. And that's where that isolation, the mystification, the unknowingness. And the other thing. The other thing. Whereas if the boys had also been included in that same conversation. Do you think it has changed now? I don't know, Kiran. Are we? It's not changed very much. Even though in international schools, they have sex education classes now. But I think

[00:18:42] this is a deep inheritance that's too deep in our blood now for men to suddenly start looking at women with a sense of empathy and understanding. Then this feeling that we are the same race in it together. For the woman to look at the man as well, right? So a lot of times I find when I have conversations with my son, because this generation is next level. And I'm very happy, of course he knows about periods, he knows mama used to get period cramps and whatever and just stay out of her hair when she's

[00:19:12] premenstrual. All that is known. What I'm happy to know is his generation, if a girl has a period and if she's staining or bleeding, they will have no issues about offering the jacket or going to the medical store and picking up a pack of pads. But you still get those pads in a newspaper. Or in a black garbage bag or something wrapped up. So the shame is now being second generation, third generation to a generation which does not have that shame. We're creating it, Kiran. We've been creating it because it

[00:19:42] serves the narrative. It's been created. Are you on your fee? Are you on women still hesitate? Also women still hesitate to say, I was late to school today because I had period cramps in the morning. And you know, we are still urban India. We are such a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction Kiran, including Krish, who is a really well brought up son. No, it's true. Very progressive. You are progressive and you raised your son with

[00:20:12] that empathy that I think a lot of men are not brought up with towards other genders. You know what the bigger risk is? That Krish, who is a well brought up, woke, empathetic boy, will be treated as the minority. But what I am saying is, one is that courage that boy will need. It will probably be used against him. The courage that that boy will need to deal with something that should

[00:20:42] actually be normalized. Going back to the snake, that snake is a rope. It's just another rabbit. You don't need to mystify it, you don't need to deify it, you don't need to shame it, taboo it, create the monster out of it. And equally you don't need to worship it and just like softness and you don't need men with just big muscles and blood lust to be worshipped. And only liking WWF, you can like WWF. And you

[00:21:11] can still be soft. Be soft. And softness is such a virtue which is why even today I have so many gay friends because I find that poor men because of toxic masculinity are afraid to be soft and they hide their softness. And they call other soft guys oh he's a wuss. Yeah. So the narrative is Is it still happening Kiran? Like us You know Has Krish ever discussed this with you? Not about being soft and being a wuss but

[00:21:40] the fact is that he's a muscular guy. So he can carry off his softness because nobody will take panga with him. Before he became that was he ever undermined by boys and men for being a wuss? Not a wuss for being empathetic being soft. No I think a lot of his friends are similar. So then it is in urban India somewhere something is changing. So we're making the shift. We are making the shift. And I do think that we need to co-opt this at a stage where

[00:22:10] the awareness of gender begins. But I must point this out to you that in urban India also across international schools when young girls are out dating boys a girl who is moving from one relationship to the other they have very short-lived relationships at the age of 16-17 and they're starting quite early now. And the parents are about it. So there's no shroud around it and no taboo around it. So a boy who is a serial dater

[00:22:40] will be spoken of disparagingly person. Okay. Don't take him seriously if he's showing interest in you because you know, he's a player. That's how he is. A girl moving too quickly from boy to boy is warned by her girl friends and her mother still that you will get a reputation. This is Indian society. Now she may not get the reputation that she would have got in our time but those facts still remain

[00:23:09] facts in urban Indian society even today. This is also a fear of female desire or fear of a woman who is... In fact, again, here again, when I go back to my ancients, it was the woman who chose. The swamwad happened with the woman. It was her agency. Right? This whole idea of her being ownership and property and all that was... But swamwad was a princess of the princess. There was a common woman. Yes, all the process was

[00:23:39] And in fact, if you go in very traditional Marwadi families today or any other family, you're a Punjabi, you know this. The examination with which a girl is married into the family, the boys have to be worthy. The boy, the family, that's our traditional roots. That's who we are in our civilizational DNA. In our blood memory, we actually evaluate the boy's worthiness for the girl and not the other way around. And which is why your matriarchal... Again,

[00:24:09] I find it so fascinating. The whole idea of matriarchal societies in South India, the Kerala societies, etc. comes from the fact and that was such a beautiful solution to this agrarian domestication, etc. That respect for gender should not be lost. Where they said, you're a trader, you'll set up houses and families in different ports. Property ownership will pass through the mother. That was such a simple solution to this entire patriarchal system

[00:24:38] when we transitioned from being hunter-forager to domesticated agrarians. Why do you think this matriarchal system has existed only in a few pockets like Kerala in the northeast? There was dominance because it was in trading societies, the men meant away. So it was an economic need to hold the property within the family. So even in other families, when we married, the reason that the gotra change or the kanyadan or whatever else happens is so that there are no property and economic disputes. Of course, that is why

[00:25:08] shadir also done traditionally within the same gotra whatever. Same gotra name. Different cast. Cast. Same cast. Cast or family. It is because of exactly these practical concerns. Economic reasons. Economic, follow the money is my simple rule. The only two places where I have not been able to follow the money and come up with an answer was two instances in human history ever. One was the witch trials. That was the only place where I couldn't find the money where you needed it.

[00:25:37] But that I realized was the emergence of the church and the Pope. Those are crusades. Actually, these are part of the crusades. Which is one place where gender, power, patriarchy, hierarchy dynamics played a greater role than economics. The other one was Roe v. Wade. Okay. And that really disturbed me. This whole idea of losing agency, pregnancy. The ruling back of rights. There is no difference between these two instances even if they've happened 400 years apart

[00:26:07] because this is exactly the same thing. Put the woman back by... And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, how big threat will you be? That you need a legislation to control her body and her pregnancy. And the fact is that Margaret Atwood when she wrote The Handmaid's Tale has said nothing in the book is made up. These are all facts which have happened at some time. It's so easy to believe that they're probably still happening in certain closed societies. And yet these things don't happen

[00:26:36] in tribal communities. They don't happen in ancient civilizations. I can't name the community where this happens in a very definable way outside of India. Not in the community because now we don't want to ruffle feathers. But the other thing is, can you see how while the West was advancing in certain fields and there was science and whatever. But this inheritance laws over there, that we all read in Austin's novels, that only a distant cousin could inherit.

[00:27:06] But a girl child could not inherit. The difference, so you remember I was working in this book called The Goddess in the Boardroom. Paris Hilton is a bona fide Hilton Empire heiress. Now in the West, they will hand over power to, like you rightly said, a male heir. If you don't have a son, you will give to partner, father, friend, brother, son of brother, whatever else it is. But you will not pass it to the woman. Even today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are, these are, I mean, you

[00:27:35] will do it. Yeah. Whereas in this side of the world, we are married to power, not gender. Our leadership is gender agnostic. So, if I don't have a son, I will groom my women to power. It happens across our social structures. It happens across our social structures. The biggest economic empire battles on this side of the world, whether it's China, and it's not just India. It's the eastern world. Your heads of state have been women.

[00:28:06] It's not even a function of religion. Bangladesh was the first. Bangladesh, Sri Lankai, India, Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, every country. So, it's not a function of religion. It's a function of power. So, why would you think this difference existed when the West apparently was so much ahead of us in terms of industrial development? That's just a narrative we had. I do not agree with that narrative at all. But a lot of it has to do with our civilizational energy and gender roles. Okay. So, in the

[00:28:34] Middle Earth, which is Europe and Africa, as the old, the gender roles were parental roles. Okay. So, the premium on the physical form of a man or woman was their parenting capabilities and fertility. Okay. Which is why you had nesting dolls. So, the premium on the physical body was wide hips, big bust, parenting capability, your fertility. So, Russian nesting dolls, Sergei bear, Santa Claus, papa bear, you

[00:29:04] know, that whole mother and father. So, you bow down, not to the king or the queen, it doesn't matter. You're bowing down to the parent. The king is the ultimate father, the queen mother. The need for the concept of the queen mother because the gender role is mother. Even the country. I mean, the country is referred to as father in India. The premium on parenting roles, premium on gender roles is parenting. In the Americas, the premium on gender roles or how gender roles are

[00:29:33] defined is the knight in shining armor and the damsel in distress. Okay. Okay. So, which is why, in fact, I remember doing this talk when Hillary Clinton was running for presidentship. They've just had Barack Obama. They've just broken through one biological barrier of race. There's no way they're dealing with gender right now. Okay. That's just bad timing for her. Just really bad. No, they won't do it because the gender role archetype is the damsel in distress.

[00:30:01] And also, they would break barriers with race and choose a person of color over a woman. That was what the name of it was. Even after that, Kamala Harris stood no chance. She was brown and Indian and a woman. Also not very bright. That's another. Versus Donald Trump? We are not touching what it exists. Yeah, but I'm just saying. I mean, somewhere married. No, I don't agree with it at all either. No, so the point is that there, the gender

[00:30:31] roles are about knight and shining armor versus damsel in distress. Which is why the origin story of why I will hand over my lance to another knight. But the role of the woman is to be rescued. She can, she's either the mother, the maiden or the harlot. She cannot be the warrior. She cannot be the warrior. She cannot be the companion. She cannot be, actually not even queen. The ruler. See, guys, but there's a certain element of biology into play when you say things like warrior because

[00:31:00] the human female body is designed in a certain way that the enemy could plunder your country and plunder her. So that comes back to ownership of the land. Where is the war? No, no, no. I'm just saying if you, war was inevitable. Now, when you're sending people to war and you send women also, if a man is taken captive, he'll be butchered. but a woman will be raped serially by different kind of men. Enemy.

[00:31:31] Violation is a violation, right? Shunali, that's a function of the human body. But look at the outcome of violation of a female body. She will be pregnant. It comes down to property and ownership, right? Otherwise, it shouldn't matter whose child I'm carrying. The relevance of whose child I'm carrying, whether at one level it is whether it is my choice or not my choice, which is what the Roe we wait thing is. At the second level, it is I might still want to bring a child into the world irrespective of

[00:32:01] my relationship with the father. I may not even know who the father is but we are integrating mother and child relationship to the importance, relevance, power, position, taissa, role of the father. A nurture role is not necessarily a nature role. You know, in fact, there used to be a Micah. I know that. Nature are two ways. And there used to be a common pool of kids. You went to the Micah, you went and gave

[00:32:31] your child. We were commonly witnessing and then you came back. Of course. So this whole idea of the lineage, the property, the ownership is a very male nominated idea because what difference is if it's not my ego or this power or patriarchal dynamics, what's the difference? Which child are you raising? So what can ancient

[00:33:00] Indian wisdom, if you could share this in bullet points, teach us about modern life that will lead to more fulfilling lives with more agency, with more harmony between all the genders? There are three simple operating principles. The first principle of it is co-opt the man at the time, man, woman, whatever, treat them equally, educate them on everything to do with their own pleasures. So there's a

[00:33:30] son's father that I know who said that I don't think the boy understands male pleasure either. He experiences it but doesn't understand the pleasure of it. He treats it as an urge which is also what women do without understanding it. So treat them equally and be mystified when they're growing up, when the awareness of gender is coming in, demystify gender and the processes of both the genders. That's the first thing that we do. The second thing that we should do is we do

[00:34:00] have some fabulous best practices like we said, like Kiran mentioned that still exist in a lot of our states about matriarchal property, this, that. And I do think we're making some progress around it. So this whole law of inheritance which is now equally applicable to women. Like before the marriage was a big thing that it was divided so if you had two sons and one daughter, you split your wealth into three. The sons were given their wealth and the daughter's wealth was spent on

[00:34:29] the wedding or handed over to her as three wealth. Formalize it. Let her be as much as and we were like that. It's not something new that we are reinventing. So bring in that share of property and equity into it. And the third one that I would say is bring back the swam. It's okay for women to, you know, this whole removal of the stigma between the man and the woman. Normalize that.

[00:35:01] No, no. In fact, that might be the easiest one to do because of our education system. The third one is difficult. This is an increasing order of difficulty. Swam. is fascinating me. How do you see swam. fitting in with the modern day dating apps that we are navigating? Actually, they are very swam. Our technology has been truer to the human self than we have been. So actually it is swam. Instead of swam. Light. 2.0. Swam. Light.

[00:35:31] It is like how nobody will ever admit to the fact that they met online. Especially if they end up being married. Actually use technology. Use it to your advantage. Fraunk the fact that I went through or swiped through so many men or met so many of them before this one. So glorify it instead of making it happen. And at both ends. Again, just diffuse gender. Take gender out of the equation in all our relationships. Do you see this happening in the rest of India?

[00:36:01] outside of societies that exist in big cities? I think it's going to happen more in India than it will happen in the rest of the world. We already have the code for it. We just need to unlock it. We already have that blood memory civilization in DNA. We just need to bring out some of it. Like we've done it for a whole lot of other movements. Is there any woman, you've done so much research and reading up on women of ancient mythologies, history, whatever. what lessons can we learn from them that we've

[00:36:31] forgotten? My favorite story is that of Alia. So the bare bones of that story is that Alia was created by Brahma and then handed over to Sage Gautam for raising. Gautam raised her and then when she was a teen brought her back to Brahma and said here's the most beautiful creature on earth and I have raised her. Brahma said very good, you've done a very good job of it. I take her and you can get married to her. Indra is getting very upset about it. most beautiful creation on earth should

[00:37:01] be mine by right. This is a Rigvedic story and we'll talk about it. And then of course we know what happens. They go ahead, they have two sons and there's that famous night where Gautam goes for his ablutions and Indra comes to Alia. Their relationship is consummated. I'll come to the nuance later. Relationship is consummated, Gautam comes back, Alia is cursed. This is the bare skeletal bones of the story. Indra Rigved, remember she's the first woman, she predates Rama and Mahabharata everything. So in the Rigved, the version of

[00:37:30] the story is that when Indra comes to Alia, he actually seduces her. And there is a full-blown seduction scene that would make you blush even today. Really? Indra Rigved. Like graphic? She's aware that he's Indra and not as Indra. She chose Indra. He comes to her that night and seduces her. And really full-blown she could have said no but she went ahead with it. She gets seduced. It's a choice. But there's a version that says I'll come to that. This is

[00:38:00] Rigved. Three days remind him of Mahabharata. And then when Gautam comes back, she walks up to Gautam and says, you know what? This has happened. You fulfilled me as a daughter, as a wife, as a mother. But I hadn't known fulfillment as a woman. And today, having thus been fulfilled so completely as a woman, I don't think I want any further sensorial engagement with the world. There is no

[00:38:29] other stimulation that can come to me for the world. And so thus, I withdraw my senses from the world. Pratyahara. Really? And therefore become the unfeeling stone. And that's how the story ends. Because in the Rigved, there's no need for to answer down to confinement. And redeem her. Cut to Valmiki. In the Valmiki, by now, manusmiti has come and the laws have changed. We need some amount of patriarchy to be established. So in the Valamiki,

[00:39:00] Indra comes to her in the guise of Gautam. And personally, I find that very offensive because I'm saying you've dumped down a woman so much. She can't tell one one from the other. But anyway, so for that act of deceiving Ahalya, Gautam finds out she's cursed to become stone and Ram comes back to redeem her. By the time you've come later into the Puranas and Manas, etc. By now, these norms have become even stricter. The

[00:39:29] Abrahamic religions have come in. There's other organizations. We need for a hero. The laws are more defined. So by the time you reach there, we've reached a stage where Indra has raped Ahalya. There is a whole thing about the rape of Ahalya and Galakkar. And therefore the curse for it is like gross. So in the Valmi, Indra is cursed to become a cat. By the time you reach the later versions,

[00:39:59] Indra is cursed with like a thousand vulva on his body and it's gross. It's mibats. And then Ahalya's curse to become stone and there's the redemption out. So you realize it's the same story. But they have erased Ahalya's agency in this entire process. And that is not how it was. But that's in her book. So if you go back to the Rig Veda, which is like the original text ever. So to me, that's the story and that's the reclamation that we need to be doing of where the

[00:40:28] ancients work in the world. Okay, before we let you go, one important question, not directly related to this conversation, but with mythology, but mostly with spirituality today online that you see it. Do you think it's become more performative? It's a numbers game in our country. What's your view on that? There are podcasts, there are people who wait the whole podcast on discussing this. So it's okay. At the grossest

[00:40:58] level, it is a numbers game. There's certainly numbers. I'm not even going to get into details of how it is, what it is, how many times I have There are numbers at every level. But at the final level, what it shows me certainly is that there's a certain shift in the stream of consciousness. So even if it's a numbers game right now, the fact that it's happening, being spoken of, shows its emergence at the final level.

[00:41:28] There's no two ways about that. But the fact that that's happening leads to the most subtle form, that there's some of Our history's knowledge, even if it's, okay, maybe it's being misrepresented and a different version, because that's the other one. Who gets to tell mythology? The scholar? You know, the fiction writer? The whole idea of Sanatan Shunali, and I still think of Kaveri when I see you and you can erase that. But the whole idea of Sanatan

[00:41:58] is that it is forever and contextually relevant. So it doesn't matter who's telling the story. But whoever is telling it is also then distaunting it. It's in today's context. It's like there were some values that my mother carried. My mother taught me those values from her context, which is why by the way, we never did the written text. We did Shruti and Smriti because when my mother spoke to me about those values, I heard them in

[00:42:27] my context. I stored them, Smriti, in my context. I applied them with what I saw, my drishti, but those values and created my darshan, my philosophy and way of life. But because today it is a very successful genre in storytelling, do you think that somewhere it is being bastardized for the sake of the commercial intent? Right, Kiran, you agree with me? With some I feel. I'm saying with some

[00:42:57] because yoga went into the west, became cool in air coats and lots of forms, hot yoga, VR yoga, shape yoga, dog yoga, all kinds of yoga. Puppy yoga. But that doesn't take away. And all these forms of yoga will find their followers. That's fine. I'm sure it is doing some good to them rather than no yoga. Sure. But there will still be people who will go back to Ashtanga

[00:43:27] and Patanjali and Hatha yoga, but they haven't died. Of course. And just the fact that yoga has been revived, there will be people who will go through these various kinds of yoga and get at least curious about the Oji. So it'll come back. So I think it's good that it's in conversation, it's in consciousness, it's there in numbers, bastardized or not, everybody has their own take of it. Some will do it for publicity, some will do it with authenticity, some will

[00:43:56] do it for provocation and to make their name and fame. It's fine. It's a space that will survive. It's democratizing it. Okay. It's like Buddha taking the preachings in Prakat. Correct. I think there's something interesting that my older one, she was telling, Mama, you know, my so-and-so friend has done so many Jyotirlings. Now, we are not that family who's grown up talking. I'm very impressed. Yeah. No, no, all these young people, I know some very young people in their late 20s and early 30s. They are doing Jyotirlings because this has all

[00:44:26] happened after Instagram. And we're having Bhajan Raves. Bhajan Raves and Bhajan clubbing. So the Jyotirling thing, of course, they may not have understood why it is the Jyotirling. They may not have understood that going to a deity and praying for your desires also should extend to the karmic level and you should work on your karma. It's also I'm saying this without judgment. But I'm trying to tell you that religious tourism has penetrated to young kids too. I think that's so cool. And I'll tell you something,

[00:44:56] pardon my ignorance, until a very, very late stage in my life, I didn't even know what a Jyotirling was because I came from an RS Samarji background. But how cool is Sunali because we were teaching maths. We were taught tables in our We never understood the tables. We just learned them by road and they became muscle memory. By the time we reached high school, we still didn't understand why the tables existed but we understood how they were useful. Why? It's like the nursery rhyme, we just recited. Exactly. So it's become our blood memory. So I'm

[00:45:25] very glad with what's happening and the fact that they're learning about the Jyotirling rather than learning about the Vatican and this is not a comment on religion as much as it is a comment on your civilizational roots. Acquinting yourself with your own civilisation. With your roots. They will always resonate and click better back with some memory that exists within you already. My dad used to drag us across Patadgal, Hampi, Badami rock cut cave temples,

[00:45:56] Bijapur, See, you know all this? No, so we used to say why are you doing this to us? Okay? And he used to say that when you go out there in the world you will meet a Japanese person who knows their language and their culture thoroughly. You'll meet a Russian who only speaks in Russian language, knows all their Tolstoy's and their Dostoy's case properly. Okay? Only Indians are people who go out in the world and say, I don't know Hindi and who is so and so and who is so and so. Right? I do,

[00:46:25] miss uncle. We need more of him. And he used to say that. So profound. And all of this only began to make sense to me in the last 10 15 years of my life. So now you please rag your kids across all. No, so now I prefer traveling within India to traveling internationally. The joy I get from being surrounded by Indian frescoes. So here's a plug. Siddharth and I are actually working. So 52 red pills we've done. We're actually working on our next journey

[00:46:54] which is, I mean, the working title is 52 in Diamonds but basically celebrating India and knowing India beyond the touch. Oh lovely. Not as a travel influencer. No, no. But to say that when you said that my Bharat is a mahan, what's the meaning of What is it? Without the slant of religion. I know. Without the slant of So that's the next big project that we've done. Let's realize it's really my Bharat is a mahan. Correct.