Interview With "The People's Joker" Director/Writer/Star Vera Drew

[00:00:00] The Vietnam War

[00:00:02] It's over, your job has just begun

[00:00:04] A new HBO original limited series

[00:00:06] Welcome to the world of spycraft

[00:00:08] Strap in

[00:00:10] From executive producers

[00:00:12] Park Chan-Wook and Robert Downey Jr

[00:00:14] What are you concealing?

[00:00:16] Based on the Pulitzer Prize winning novel by

[00:00:18] Viet Thanh Nguyen

[00:00:20] What if I told you that I was a communist spy?

[00:00:22] How did you become this?

[00:00:24] The sympathizer

[00:00:26] Streaming April 14th on Max

[00:00:28] Subscription Required

[00:00:58] On Food Network stream on Max

[00:01:28] I wasn't even sure I existed

[00:01:30] I wasn't even sure I existed

[00:01:32] I wasn't even sure I existed

[00:01:34] It's like blurry, cracks mosaic

[00:01:36] Of all these gender revelations

[00:01:38] You mean she's a...

[00:01:40] I'm trans

[00:01:42] Uh, uh, well

[00:01:44] I'm sorry

[00:01:46] I was fairly certain I was in love

[00:01:48] And I was so afraid of that feeling going away

[00:01:50] Ah, but you should be afraid

[00:01:52] Ah, but you should be afraid

[00:01:54] Did I just slap my happy little boy back?

[00:01:56] I just don't feel like a boy

[00:01:58] You're not

[00:02:00] Why I've developed an experimental treatment

[00:02:02] You'll be mama's happy little boy

[00:02:04] Also

[00:02:06] Come spend rainbow for pride

[00:02:08] Thank you so much for your time today

[00:02:10] I'm so excited to dive into this

[00:02:14] I don't even know how to describe this film

[00:02:16] I'm sure it's been described every which way

[00:02:18] Under the sun, but it was

[00:02:20] It was truly a delight to get to watch it

[00:02:22] So thank you for

[00:02:24] For good times and

[00:02:26] The laughs from this film

[00:02:28] And also, you know, going into very

[00:02:30] Very personal topics too

[00:02:32] I have to say

[00:02:34] Your film is

[00:02:36] Probably the first film ever

[00:02:38] That has finally showed me

[00:02:40] What it's like for people in like

[00:02:42] Gotham City or in like

[00:02:44] The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[00:02:46] Like what it's like for regular people

[00:02:48] Who are not necessarily

[00:02:50] The villains and the main characters

[00:02:52] No film ever dives into that

[00:02:54] Thank you

[00:02:56] Yeah, no, I mean like it felt

[00:02:58] Like just because

[00:03:00] Of like where every like

[00:03:02] U.S. city is right now

[00:03:04] Like just in terms of like

[00:03:06] Every single one's becoming like

[00:03:08] A police state and like

[00:03:10] Is clear like

[00:03:12] The class struggle isn't

[00:03:14] Any clearer than when

[00:03:16] You're walking around like an American city

[00:03:18] And you see like a homeless encampment

[00:03:20] Set up right next to like

[00:03:22] The ugliest fucking hugest

[00:03:24] Like apartment complex that you've ever seen

[00:03:26] That's being built and clearly like

[00:03:28] Probably being built by somebody who doesn't

[00:03:30] Leave and live in the states anymore

[00:03:32] LA is definitely that

[00:03:34] Chicago is definitely that and like

[00:03:36] It just felt like making a version of

[00:03:38] Gotham that was like a real genuine

[00:03:40] Reflection of like what it's like

[00:03:42] To live in America right now

[00:03:44] Like both for trans people just

[00:03:46] And like everybody like

[00:03:48] Everybody feels voiceless and scared

[00:03:50] And broke. It's

[00:03:52] Gotham is the perfect place

[00:03:54] To do that I think

[00:03:56] It is, yeah it's always

[00:03:58] Just been so fascinating to me how

[00:04:00] So many of those elements that

[00:04:02] You just described are in

[00:04:04] All of these all of these

[00:04:06] Films and we dive into

[00:04:08] These worlds but it's just never

[00:04:10] Really necessarily explored

[00:04:12] It's just the hero's journey or the villain's

[00:04:14] Journey or how their lives are

[00:04:16] Wulvan but yeah I want to see

[00:04:18] What other people are dealing with

[00:04:20] And the fact that they're very similar to us

[00:04:22] In our cities

[00:04:24] No totally and it's

[00:04:26] I think the like using Batman

[00:04:28] Villains as sort of stand-ins

[00:04:30] Like both for like

[00:04:32] Comedians

[00:04:34] And like

[00:04:36] Just queer people was

[00:04:38] The perfect way to kind of really lean into

[00:04:40] That because queer people are

[00:04:42] Villainized in this country

[00:04:44] And it's you know I mean we

[00:04:46] When we dropped the trailer for the movie

[00:04:48] Like it was I was just getting

[00:04:50] Called a groomer all day like

[00:04:52] People immediately politicize my identity

[00:04:54] And immediately like act

[00:04:56] Like I'm doing something wrong just for finally

[00:04:58] Kind of being me and I think

[00:05:00] Like every queer person kind

[00:05:02] Of feels the weight of having your identity

[00:05:04] Immediately be a part of like

[00:05:06] Discourse and politics

[00:05:08] And just the media as a whole

[00:05:10] It's like it's very confusing

[00:05:12] And I don't know like I think like everybody

[00:05:14] Can relate to that too like not just

[00:05:16] Trans people and queer people like

[00:05:18] I think like cis people

[00:05:20] Are also feeling very voiceless

[00:05:22] Like everybody I know is kind of having

[00:05:24] Is kind of coming into a new identity

[00:05:26] In this like

[00:05:28] New era of like

[00:05:30] COVID and AI

[00:05:32] And like a completely

[00:05:34] Falling apart political system

[00:05:36] On both sides

[00:05:38] You know I think like playing with

[00:05:40] Characters that are usually just seen

[00:05:42] As like one dimensional mentally

[00:05:44] Mentally ill like psychopaths

[00:05:46] Was just super interesting and fun

[00:05:48] To sort of play with

[00:05:50] And I've just always been

[00:05:52] I've always been a DC girl like

[00:05:54] I've been reading comics

[00:05:56] Most of my life at this point

[00:05:58] Yeah it's funny because like as

[00:06:00] You said like a lot of those

[00:06:02] Themes and things are in a lot of these

[00:06:04] Like movies like these movie adaptations

[00:06:06] Of these characters but

[00:06:08] They're not accentuated

[00:06:10] As much they're not really like explored

[00:06:12] In a

[00:06:14] Direct and sort of three dimensional

[00:06:16] Way

[00:06:18] But honestly with the exception of Todd

[00:06:20] Phillips Joker like I remember when I

[00:06:22] Saw Todd Phillips Joker

[00:06:24] You know I wasn't necessarily like

[00:06:26] Immediately inspired to run out

[00:06:28] And make a Joker parody but like

[00:06:30] It was this movie that I was seeing

[00:06:32] Where I was just like oh my god like

[00:06:34] This is a comic book movie

[00:06:36] About the Joker

[00:06:38] And it's like talking about class

[00:06:40] Struggle and like mental health

[00:06:42] Crisis and like a broken family

[00:06:44] System like I watched it as a trans

[00:06:46] Woman and was like oh my god

[00:06:48] I relate so much to this character

[00:06:50] I get it

[00:06:52] Yeah and like cause he also

[00:06:54] By the end like he gets turned

[00:06:56] Into this like political

[00:06:58] Messiah and like he

[00:07:00] Doesn't even know what that is

[00:07:02] Like he can't contend with the fact

[00:07:04] That he's somehow how now like a political

[00:07:06] Media figure and

[00:07:08] I don't know to me that is just like

[00:07:10] Very emblematic of like

[00:07:12] What the trans experience is

[00:07:14] Especially like coming out as trans

[00:07:16] Like in show business and stuff

[00:07:18] This just seemed like the perfect

[00:07:20] Sort of composite for that and

[00:07:22] I don't know like it's

[00:07:24] Sad when I see cause I saw like

[00:07:26] A headline this morning that I should

[00:07:28] Just take as a compliment but it was like

[00:07:30] It was about the people's Joker

[00:07:32] Like the people's Joker is like

[00:07:34] The beautiful

[00:07:36] Death rattle or whatever

[00:07:38] Superhero cinema like finally going

[00:07:40] Away and like it's like

[00:07:42] Tone complimentary like they're saying

[00:07:44] Like it's cool this movie is coming in right at the end

[00:07:46] Of this like wave but I read

[00:07:48] That and I got so sad because

[00:07:50] What I really hope happens now is just like

[00:07:52] We see more genre movies and more

[00:07:54] Like comic book movies and stuff that are

[00:07:56] Like this personal

[00:07:58] And this honest and

[00:08:00] Political and raw like

[00:08:02] But yeah I mean we could definitely do away

[00:08:04] With some of these like cinematic universe

[00:08:06] Movies that's getting a little old

[00:08:08] And I mean I was going to say the fact that

[00:08:10] This film is so personal

[00:08:12] Goes through

[00:08:14] Really kind of your life

[00:08:16] Story in a way I of course

[00:08:18] I don't know how 100%

[00:08:20] Accurate it is in some

[00:08:22] Instances but completely

[00:08:24] It's completely okay

[00:08:26] Yeah people keep calling it semi-autobiographical

[00:08:28] And I'm like no

[00:08:30] No it's

[00:08:32] Embarrassingly true

[00:08:34] The only difference is I'm not the Joker

[00:08:36] And I'm

[00:08:38] I didn't date Jared Leto's Joker but I dated

[00:08:40] A guy who was quite like him

[00:08:42] So

[00:08:44] Like the movie was really just like expensive art therapy

[00:08:46] For me more than anything

[00:08:48] Okay that's the best kind isn't it

[00:08:50] Oh yeah

[00:08:52] But you know as you mentioned

[00:08:54] So personal so raw

[00:08:56] And then seeing like those types of headlines

[00:08:58] And as you said being politicized

[00:09:00] Even though it's

[00:09:02] Just a story that you wanted to tell

[00:09:04] And one that so many other people

[00:09:06] Are so excited to

[00:09:08] Tell it still sucks

[00:09:10] That we're in that kind of

[00:09:12] World where it's true on this one side

[00:09:14] But then there's this also

[00:09:16] Coming along with it too

[00:09:18] You know I know that this film has maybe

[00:09:20] Taken you on a bit of roller coaster ride

[00:09:22] The last few years as well

[00:09:24] Like as you know as it's about to come out

[00:09:26] In some select theaters over these

[00:09:28] Next few weeks like how are you feeling

[00:09:30] Finally you know

[00:09:32] Reaching this point having it come

[00:09:34] Out to wider audiences

[00:09:36] It's the total like

[00:09:38] It just feels amazing like I spent

[00:09:40] A good chunk of last year

[00:09:42] Kind of not really knowing

[00:09:44] What I was going to do with the

[00:09:46] Movie because like

[00:09:48] There was anticipation from

[00:09:50] For it the second we premiered it

[00:09:52] At tiff in 2022

[00:09:54] Yeah but we had like a lot of

[00:09:56] Baggage that went along with that

[00:09:58] And a lot more people found out about the

[00:10:00] Movie and the movie also just

[00:10:02] Wasn't really done yet so

[00:10:04] There was a lot of maneuvering that needed

[00:10:06] To happen to get to this

[00:10:08] Moment. The first six months of

[00:10:10] Last year I was pretty sure

[00:10:12] That I was going to have to self-distribute

[00:10:14] The movie which I

[00:10:16] Had a lot of people try to talk me into doing

[00:10:18] I absolutely would have done

[00:10:20] Maybe that would have even been

[00:10:22] The best thing to do like

[00:10:24] Morally in a way just because the movie is

[00:10:26] So like anti-capitalist

[00:10:28] But we had

[00:10:30] A public facing screening

[00:10:32] At out fest

[00:10:34] Last year in July

[00:10:36] And that was

[00:10:38] What led to me meeting

[00:10:40] Frank Jaffe from altered innocence

[00:10:42] In like the second I met him I was

[00:10:44] Like oh this is going to all work out

[00:10:46] Like this is the right home for it

[00:10:48] That's it. Just the mere fact that he's

[00:10:50] Not afraid to release the movie

[00:10:52] And like also believes that this movie

[00:10:54] Is a parody and is protected by

[00:10:56] Fair use because there's a lot of people

[00:10:58] Who don't who fucking roll their eyes

[00:11:00] At me when I say that and it's like

[00:11:02] It's true it's like it's clearly

[00:11:04] A parody. Like are you telling

[00:11:06] Me that a movie where like batman

[00:11:08] Has a fucking

[00:11:10] Snipely whiplash mustache

[00:11:12] And like is a little fat bean

[00:11:14] Like is a serious Batman

[00:11:16] Movie like grow up. Like I'm not

[00:11:18] A dummy. Not even Tim Burton

[00:11:20] Is going down that road.

[00:11:22] No, I mean he might what he probably

[00:11:24] Wish wishes he could

[00:11:26] But um no seeing some of his concept

[00:11:28] Art for some of his movies

[00:11:30] Sometimes I'm like oh they really make him

[00:11:32] Dial back how weird he is

[00:11:34] But I'm excited for

[00:11:36] Beetlejuice the new Beetlejuice because

[00:11:38] It definitely seems like he's uh

[00:11:40] Yeah like completely

[00:11:42] The gloves are off and he's doing it so yeah

[00:11:44] I mean I feel great. I feel really great

[00:11:46] And it feels good because like

[00:11:48] I don't know we did there were various points

[00:11:50] In this journey where we had like

[00:11:52] Bigger distribution models

[00:11:54] Like presented to us

[00:11:56] And cool places that I would

[00:11:58] Totally love to work with on other films

[00:12:00] That like just kind of weren't

[00:12:02] Right for this movie because it always

[00:12:04] Really required somebody

[00:12:06] Like with a real independent spirit

[00:12:08] And somebody from the queer community

[00:12:10] Like the fact that Frank

[00:12:12] Susively releases movies that are queer

[00:12:14] Coming of age films it was immediately

[00:12:16] Like this is the match made in heaven

[00:12:18] And it's gonna all

[00:12:20] Be taken care of like this is what I was waiting for

[00:12:22] And I know that you said

[00:12:24] You know for seeing

[00:12:26] Joker back in gosh one was

[00:12:28] A 2019 or something like that

[00:12:30] You recognize parts of yourself

[00:12:32] In that story. I know this is a

[00:12:34] Boring question but of course I have to ask

[00:12:36] Like when did your creative process

[00:12:38] Then start to take this

[00:12:40] Story that is known in many

[00:12:42] Aspects but really just

[00:12:44] Bring it to life with your own

[00:12:46] Fascinating creative

[00:12:48] You know changes and flourishes

[00:12:50] And I mean so much animation

[00:12:52] I mean I could just talk and talk about that

[00:12:54] And I know we'll get into that

[00:12:56] But I mean like that first time

[00:12:58] When you realized okay this is

[00:13:00] This is the story that I want to take

[00:13:02] You know it was a very gradual process

[00:13:04] So towards the end of

[00:13:06] 2019 like separate

[00:13:08] From Todd Phillips movie and just

[00:13:10] Just being you know I'd come up

[00:13:12] As a

[00:13:14] As an editor

[00:13:16] And a VFX artist and

[00:13:18] Eventually directing and producing

[00:13:20] As well at Tim and Eric

[00:13:22] Their production company

[00:13:24] Absolutely productions

[00:13:26] And I got to work on like a lot of really amazing

[00:13:28] Shows like my first job

[00:13:30] In Los Angeles was I was a

[00:13:32] Intern on the Eric Andre

[00:13:34] Show the first season of the Eric Andre

[00:13:36] Show and then my next job was

[00:13:38] I was a camera assistant

[00:13:40] On season one of Nathan for you

[00:13:42] And then like

[00:13:44] I was able to like get into

[00:13:46] Post production and like

[00:13:48] I just had this beautiful amazing

[00:13:50] Comedy career in television where I got

[00:13:52] To work with all these super talented people

[00:13:54] The end of 2019 I

[00:13:56] Made this show with Tim and Eric

[00:13:58] That was called Tim and Eric's Beef House

[00:14:00] Which strangely has like become lost

[00:14:02] Media like you can't find it anywhere

[00:14:04] Makes me so sad because we

[00:14:06] Worked hard on that show

[00:14:08] Like it's so um

[00:14:10] It's my favorite thing they've ever done

[00:14:12] I mean I'm biased because like I wrote

[00:14:14] Directed and produced on it but like it was

[00:14:16] Uh it was just

[00:14:18] It really felt like they were evolving into

[00:14:20] Something beautiful with that show

[00:14:22] But I was feeling really burnt out after the

[00:14:24] Experience of making that and I because I just kind

[00:14:26] Of had reached this point where I was like okay

[00:14:28] I've been doing comedy most of my life now

[00:14:30] Like because I started really really young

[00:14:32] At 13 I became an improviser

[00:14:34] And uh

[00:14:36] I've been retired from it at like 24

[00:14:38] Because it was

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[00:15:54] Now that I'm around

[00:15:56] People that are trying to turn this into a career

[00:15:58] It's just annoying being a performer

[00:16:00] And I'd rather be a director

[00:16:02] But yeah, I think at the end of that year

[00:16:04] I was really just kind of confronting

[00:16:06] This longing of

[00:16:08] I wanted to make a movie my entire life

[00:16:10] Like I knew I was a filmmaker before

[00:16:12] I knew I was a girl and

[00:16:14] My earliest memories were wanting to make movies

[00:16:16] And

[00:16:18] I got this idea just for

[00:16:20] It was like a body horror thing

[00:16:22] Kind of about a drag queen

[00:16:24] Who was physically addicted to irony

[00:16:26] And it was basically just me processing

[00:16:28] How comedy

[00:16:30] Had really been the space for me

[00:16:32] To explore identity

[00:16:34] And self, but it also kind of kept me

[00:16:36] In some toxic patterns

[00:16:38] And I was just kind of recreating

[00:16:40] My broken family system

[00:16:42] Every step of the way

[00:16:44] And I needed to make a piece of art

[00:16:46] That was interrogating that

[00:16:48] And I don't really know what

[00:16:50] That project was going to be at that point

[00:16:52] Because it never really evolved past

[00:16:54] Just kind of writing some essays

[00:16:56] And stuff sort of processing all those

[00:16:58] Stuff, that thing

[00:17:00] But I knew it was like in this body horror

[00:17:02] Context. Then you flash forward to

[00:17:04] March 2020

[00:17:06] It's pre-vax COVID

[00:17:08] Everything starting to shut down

[00:17:10] And that also coincided with Todd Phillips

[00:17:12] He was on some press tour

[00:17:14] And he was talking about

[00:17:16] How woke culture

[00:17:18] Was ruining comedy

[00:17:20] And I don't want to direct comedy films anymore

[00:17:22] Because people are too sensitive now

[00:17:24] Which, look, to be fair

[00:17:26] We live in very reactive times

[00:17:28] I really do think

[00:17:30] People do get outraged over

[00:17:32] Perfectly normal sex scenes in movies

[00:17:34] Now so I kind of understand

[00:17:36] Where those conversations about woke culture are coming in

[00:17:38] But coming from the director of Joker

[00:17:40] A movie that just

[00:17:42] A billion dollars is

[00:17:44] Clearly a comedy

[00:17:46] It's like if anything Joker

[00:17:48] Is a fucking

[00:17:50] Fair use parody of

[00:17:52] Ping of comedy

[00:17:54] It was so funny to read that

[00:17:56] And just be like what the fuck are you talking about dude

[00:17:58] Like you're fine

[00:18:00] You've never been more fine

[00:18:02] Than in this moment right now

[00:18:04] Like if you're miserable right now buddy

[00:18:06] I'm sorry

[00:18:08] Things are

[00:18:10] I don't know

[00:18:12] But I do get where it comes from

[00:18:14] On some level, but it was seeing that

[00:18:16] And kind of just having this career

[00:18:18] Of like

[00:18:20] Being a comedy and being in comedy

[00:18:22] And making comedy that is very fucked up

[00:18:24] And rude, like all of the shows I've worked on

[00:18:26] There's like

[00:18:28] Diarrhea and like

[00:18:30] Gross dad jokes and gross

[00:18:32] Like everything, like it was like I

[00:18:34] And all my friends

[00:18:36] Who are queer, who make art

[00:18:38] Or do comedy are like the most

[00:18:40] You know, like offensive people on the planet

[00:18:42] But they don't hurt each other's feelings

[00:18:44] Like it's you know queer sensibility

[00:18:46] In cinema

[00:18:48] Always was edgy

[00:18:50] And did push buttons and kind of offend

[00:18:52] People so like

[00:18:54] I think seeing all of that at once

[00:18:56] I was like okay, I think I need to

[00:18:58] Make something Joker related

[00:19:00] To sort of process this stuff

[00:19:02] And the first stage

[00:19:04] Sorry I'm talking a lot but the origins of this project

[00:19:06] Are so complicated and confusing

[00:19:08] This is actually the opening version

[00:19:10] But that article

[00:19:12] That popped up and my

[00:19:14] The woman who ended up becoming my co-writer

[00:19:16] Brie LaRose commissioned me to

[00:19:18] Re-edit Todd Phillips Joker

[00:19:20] And she was like I'll only watch this guy's

[00:19:22] Movie if Vera re-edits it

[00:19:24] And I started doing that

[00:19:26] And kind of thinking I would make like

[00:19:28] A weird like everything is

[00:19:30] Like a feature length, everything is terrible

[00:19:32] Video or something but

[00:19:34] Is kind of a gay like processing

[00:19:36] The queer themes in Batman

[00:19:38] And as I was doing that I was like fuck this

[00:19:40] I got this idea about this drag queen

[00:19:42] I've got like I love the DC canon

[00:19:44] I've been obsessed with it my entire life

[00:19:46] I've got this other comedy friend

[00:19:48] Brie who also is out of work

[00:19:50] And not getting paid to add

[00:19:52] Spark sound effects to things

[00:19:54] Anymore so why don't we write a movie together

[00:19:56] And why don't we write like

[00:19:58] A trans Joker parody

[00:20:00] And that's really

[00:20:02] Where it started to take shape

[00:20:04] And we just wrote what I think

[00:20:06] Is just a beautiful script that was also

[00:20:08] Impossible to film

[00:20:10] Like 100% and impossible

[00:20:12] To execute movie

[00:20:14] I know you made it as hard as possible on yourself

[00:20:16] Yeah

[00:20:18] I was raised Catholic so I've got

[00:20:20] A self-flagellate

[00:20:22] It's the only way to be

[00:20:24] I actually I saw some people saying

[00:20:26] That this film kind of reminded them

[00:20:28] Of like early John Waters

[00:20:30] Filmography and kind of that way

[00:20:32] Pushing the buttons really

[00:20:34] Kind of going out there

[00:20:36] I'm curious if John Waters was ever

[00:20:38] Like an inspiration to

[00:20:40] Growing up watching those films

[00:20:42] Maybe doing this film too

[00:20:44] One yes

[00:20:46] To everything you said

[00:20:48] I can't believe that this movie gets

[00:20:50] Uttered in the same breath as him because

[00:20:52] He's one of my favorite

[00:20:54] Filmmakers of all time

[00:20:56] Joker the Harlequin

[00:20:58] The version of the Joker I play in the movie

[00:21:00] I was really kind of

[00:21:02] Pulling from like

[00:21:04] Three people that I was

[00:21:06] Apart from myself because like the character in the movie

[00:21:08] Really is just based off me

[00:21:10] The story you're seeing play out

[00:21:12] Is just my story but told with

[00:21:14] Batman and Joker characters

[00:21:16] And all these like

[00:21:18] Original queer versions of them

[00:21:20] That you've never seen before

[00:21:22] But I was very specifically thinking

[00:21:24] A lot about three people

[00:21:26] When I was playing that part

[00:21:28] The first of which was Courtney Love

[00:21:30] The second Andy Kaufman

[00:21:32] The third of which is

[00:21:34] The third of which is

[00:21:36] Divine

[00:21:38] The through line there is just like

[00:21:40] Three people that like I feel like

[00:21:42] Are

[00:21:44] There's nobody else like them

[00:21:46] That has ever existed

[00:21:48] And

[00:21:50] Were these people that like

[00:21:52] Just are themselves at all costs

[00:21:54] Like divine could only be

[00:21:56] Divine Andy Kaufman

[00:21:58] Could only be Andy Kaufman and Courtney

[00:22:00] Desperate living was the

[00:22:02] Big one that I was thinking about

[00:22:04] While making this film because desperate

[00:22:06] Living is like

[00:22:08] It's like a fairy tale or something

[00:22:10] It's so disgusting

[00:22:12] And horrible and like

[00:22:14] To all the zoomers

[00:22:16] Listening it is problematic

[00:22:18] But it's beautifully problematic

[00:22:20] And like empowering

[00:22:22] There's like a T for T relationship

[00:22:24] In that movie before the word

[00:22:26] The phrase T for T was even invented

[00:22:28] Like it is

[00:22:30] It's one of my favorite movies of all time

[00:22:32] Like it's only 90 minutes long

[00:22:34] And whenever it ends I'm like oh I wish

[00:22:36] I could watch another three hours

[00:22:38] Because I love a queer fairy tale

[00:22:40] He was actually just here

[00:22:42] Doing a talk

[00:22:44] For a speaker series

[00:22:46] And I mean

[00:22:48] It's like every thought process that goes into

[00:22:50] His head will come out of his mouth

[00:22:52] No matter how inappropriate or any

[00:22:54] Wilder maybe I mean

[00:22:56] What a fantastic person

[00:22:58] No and I mean that's the kind of freedom

[00:23:00] That not only that I wanted to like

[00:23:02] Bring to this movie

[00:23:04] But like just going forward

[00:23:06] Like in making our

[00:23:08] I don't really have time anymore

[00:23:10] To be coy or like play the game

[00:23:12] Or whatever like

[00:23:14] I worked in TV for like 10 years

[00:23:16] So I've just talked to so many people who just like

[00:23:18] Lie to your face and it's just like

[00:23:20] I'm done I'm like done

[00:23:22] I can do nothing but I have a little bit more

[00:23:24] Of a closer earth than John I think

[00:23:26] But

[00:23:28] That's just because I'm on Adderall

[00:23:30] And I think like

[00:23:32] The thing I really do like

[00:23:34] Always try to take away from him and his art

[00:23:36] Is like that honesty and that

[00:23:38] That ability to just go like oh you think

[00:23:40] We're freaks you think we're fucking villains

[00:23:42] Well here I'll show you like a queer

[00:23:44] Villain I'll show you how

[00:23:46] Disgusting I am I'm the filthiest

[00:23:48] Person in the world like

[00:23:50] That's exactly what

[00:23:52] I'm going to do to hopefully a spouse

[00:23:54] Yeah

[00:23:56] I know we have a few minutes left together

[00:23:58] But I mean I just kind of wanted to dive

[00:24:00] A little bit more into

[00:24:02] I mean it's just so great

[00:24:04] To see a queer film just be

[00:24:06] 100% you know as

[00:24:08] Honest as queer as it wants

[00:24:10] To be there is no necessarily

[00:24:12] Like you know the usual

[00:24:14] Tragic story tropes

[00:24:16] That are put in there the

[00:24:18] Let's trauma dump all this

[00:24:20] Kind of stuff not saying that there are

[00:24:22] Not you know those very personal

[00:24:24] Elements in this film but I mean

[00:24:26] It was just it was a refreshing

[00:24:28] Way to see a queer film

[00:24:30] And I mean I can only imagine

[00:24:32] That you probably have like a million

[00:24:34] And one other ideas in terms

[00:24:36] Of how you want to and

[00:24:38] What you want to tell story wise

[00:24:40] But I guess what for you what was

[00:24:42] What was the most important thing as you

[00:24:44] Were tackling on as

[00:24:46] Personal of a story as this and maybe

[00:24:48] About other people who would be watching it

[00:24:50] Down the line. There's two things

[00:24:52] That I want to talk about here I think the first

[00:24:54] Being like you know I when Bre and

[00:24:56] I wrote the script we talked

[00:24:58] About it a lot as like

[00:25:00] I think of it mainly as like a mother

[00:25:02] Daughter story like it's a

[00:25:04] Story really about a mother and her trans

[00:25:06] Daughter and the two of them trying

[00:25:08] To understand each other and you know

[00:25:10] I dedicated the movie to my mom

[00:25:12] Who I do have a complicated

[00:25:14] Relationship with like coming out

[00:25:16] In my family was not ideal

[00:25:18] And like I wanted

[00:25:20] To process that very honestly

[00:25:22] In my art but I also wanted to do it in a way

[00:25:24] That was optimistic

[00:25:26] So like realistic but optimistic

[00:25:28] And not just like a fuck

[00:25:30] You letter to my mom you know

[00:25:32] Because like if I could say

[00:25:34] She did one thing right in my childhood

[00:25:36] It's like she always encouraged me to make

[00:25:38] Art and to do that

[00:25:40] When I started doing it professionally

[00:25:42] And she saw the kind of art I was making

[00:25:44] She was a little you know

[00:25:46] Had some notes but you know

[00:25:48] So I and I processed that

[00:25:50] In the movie as well like I think

[00:25:52] A lot of comedians go through that

[00:25:54] With their parents where they're like do you have to say so many filthy words

[00:25:56] Like you're fucking embarrassing us

[00:25:58] So yeah I mean I really

[00:26:00] Didn't want to make something that like

[00:26:02] Would make my family feel bad or

[00:26:04] Heard anybody's feelings and

[00:26:06] I think the other tightrope that I really

[00:26:08] Walked with this one was

[00:26:10] With the queer romance angle in it

[00:26:12] Joker the Harlequin ends up falling in love

[00:26:14] With this trans guy in the movie

[00:26:16] Who is basically

[00:26:18] A parody of Jared Leto's Joker

[00:26:20] Like we use Jared Leto's you know

[00:26:22] Joker makeup in it and stuff

[00:26:24] You know that is a character

[00:26:26] Also based off of a real person

[00:26:28] Like I had this pretty intense

[00:26:30] Relationship with somebody

[00:26:32] Who was a trans guy and it was

[00:26:34] Very toxic, very codependent

[00:26:36] Very abusive

[00:26:38] But it was in that relationship

[00:26:40] I figured out I was trans and he was the first person

[00:26:42] That really saw me

[00:26:44] For who I was and like

[00:26:46] He if there's one thing he did right

[00:26:48] It's like when I came out to him

[00:26:50] He was just like yeah

[00:26:52] Like it was fucking awesome and like I had that support

[00:26:54] So I wanted to talk about

[00:26:56] That also in a nuanced way

[00:26:58] How like I think a lot of queer people

[00:27:00] Get into these like

[00:27:02] Relationships early in their lives

[00:27:04] In their queer coming out lives

[00:27:06] Where they should not

[00:27:08] Be with this person for long term

[00:27:10] This is a person that's in their life

[00:27:12] To like be their family in that moment

[00:27:14] And prop them up and encourage them

[00:27:16] And I think a lot of the

[00:27:18] Times that comes with somebody who

[00:27:20] Yeah like you just really shouldn't be with

[00:27:22] And I don't know I think when

[00:27:24] Writing a character like that

[00:27:26] Particularly a trans masculine character

[00:27:28] Like I really didn't want to lean

[00:27:30] Into any of the tropes we've ever

[00:27:32] Seen about trans mass characters

[00:27:34] I mean you talk about how bad

[00:27:36] Trans representation is for trans women

[00:27:38] Like trans guys kind of have it worse

[00:27:40] Like because they're always portrayed as

[00:27:42] Like angry weirdos

[00:27:44] Or like

[00:27:46] Or like lesbians who couldn't make it work

[00:27:48] It's like fucked, it's really fucked

[00:27:50] And I didn't want Mr. J

[00:27:52] Who's the you know the trans guy character

[00:27:54] In our movie like I wanted him to

[00:27:56] Yes be like a realistic

[00:27:58] Representation of like

[00:28:00] That toxic Joker and Harley Quinn

[00:28:02] Dynamic while also

[00:28:04] Still giving him humanity and

[00:28:06] And hopefully like arriving at the

[00:28:08] End of the film for both his character

[00:28:10] And the mother character where it's like

[00:28:12] It's not villainizing these people

[00:28:14] It's presenting them in the context

[00:28:16] In which like we're acknowledging

[00:28:18] That we all live in this world where

[00:28:20] Like yeah we hurt each other because

[00:28:22] We're constantly being hurt and

[00:28:24] Queer people especially like

[00:28:26] We live in a society

[00:28:28] Where we like

[00:28:30] Completely go through life

[00:28:32] On the fringe sometimes we end up

[00:28:34] With people we shouldn't and situations

[00:28:36] We shouldn't and like

[00:28:38] We kind of have to figure that out on our own

[00:28:40] And carve our own path and

[00:28:42] That's really what I wanted to do with that

[00:28:44] And I don't know like it was pretty

[00:28:46] It's pretty stressful

[00:28:48] You know writing this movie was

[00:28:50] Stressful at times just because

[00:28:52] Like and and like you know

[00:28:54] Then once it gets to like adding visual jokes

[00:28:56] And stuff there was a lot of things about

[00:28:58] Transness and trans culture

[00:29:00] That I was like should I really be including this?

[00:29:03] Like is it really

[00:29:05] Is this problematic or like

[00:29:07] Because we have a joke about coding in the movie

[00:29:09] And how like a lot of trans women

[00:29:11] And incels are coders and like

[00:29:13] That's a transphobic joke and it's in the movie

[00:29:15] But I think queer representation

[00:29:18] Is so sanitized and so horrible

[00:29:21] Even sometimes when it's made by queer people

[00:29:23] Like they feel that pressure to make something

[00:29:25] That's accessible to cis audiences

[00:29:27] So they make something that's like

[00:29:29] Either showing us as exclusively victims

[00:29:32] Or showing something that's like

[00:29:35] Look we're just all just the same

[00:29:37] And it's like we're not the same

[00:29:39] Like two gay people being married is not the same

[00:29:41] As a man and woman being married

[00:29:42] Like a trans woman is not

[00:29:44] My experience is very different from that of a cis woman

[00:29:46] There are similarities there

[00:29:48] But it's different so like our art shouldn't be

[00:29:51] Homogenized it should be honest and like

[00:29:53] Actually reflect the real experience that we're

[00:29:56] Having as people

[00:29:58] Yeah I just I really wanted to stay true that

[00:30:00] Every step of the way with this

[00:30:02] And thankfully I was just surrounded by a team

[00:30:04] That was like

[00:30:06] That only encouraged that

[00:30:08] Like nobody involved in the making of this movie

[00:30:10] Was afraid of anything

[00:30:12] And I needed that because there were many times

[00:30:14] In the process where I was afraid

[00:30:16] To tell that kind of truth I think

[00:30:18] No that's awesome I mean I'm so happy

[00:30:20] That you had the right people around you

[00:30:22] That you all stuck to your guns on this

[00:30:24] And said we're doing it and there was no

[00:30:26] Like outside influence either I'm sure

[00:30:28] You know bigger

[00:30:30] Bigger production companies

[00:30:32] That probably changes a lot of people's stories too

[00:30:34] So I mean I really

[00:30:36] Applauded you on that

[00:30:38] Of course we are talking today

[00:30:40] When the poster for

[00:30:42] The second Joker movie came out

[00:30:44] With showing Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix

[00:30:46] I didn't see it yet

[00:30:48] Oh my goodness

[00:30:49] Can I look it up right now?

[00:30:50] Yes please do

[00:30:52] Wow

[00:30:54] But I have to ask you that's going to be

[00:30:56] A jukebox musical

[00:30:58] Are we getting the people's

[00:31:00] Joker musical as a sequel?

[00:31:02] Oh my god I love this poster

[00:31:04] I don't think I'm going to ever make

[00:31:06] A Joker jukebox musical

[00:31:08] Especially now that Todd got

[00:31:10] To it first

[00:31:12] Our festival cut of the movie

[00:31:14] Kind of was a jukebox

[00:31:16] Musical on some level

[00:31:18] We had a lot of cover songs

[00:31:20] Like I had commissioned a bunch of

[00:31:22] Cover songs for the film

[00:31:24] And I tried to

[00:31:26] License those like I had a music budget

[00:31:28] To license them and know

[00:31:30] None of the music publishing

[00:31:32] Companies wanted to work with us

[00:31:34] Specifically citing like our baggage

[00:31:36] With Warner Brothers

[00:31:38] And then when I found out that Joker 2

[00:31:40] Was a jukebox musical I was like

[00:31:42] I wonder if they maybe had some of the same songs

[00:31:44] And that was actually the problem

[00:31:46] Oh my god that would be hilarious

[00:31:48] Yeah I'm really excited to see it though

[00:31:50] Like I do

[00:31:52] I mean I get why that movie is not for everybody

[00:31:54] And it's been politicized

[00:31:56] In the weirdest

[00:31:58] Like shittiest ways possible but like

[00:32:00] I love that Joker

[00:32:02] Verse and I'm definitely going to show up

[00:32:04] For it. I pretended to be a gay guy

[00:32:06] For six years when I didn't know I was trans

[00:32:08] So obviously I care about Lady Gaga

[00:32:10] So yeah

[00:32:12] Sign me up I can't wait for the trailer

[00:32:14] I know

[00:32:16] I think it's coming out in a few days

[00:32:18] So we're ready

[00:32:20] Yeah

[00:32:22] Thank you so so very much for your time

[00:32:24] Vera it was such a pleasure to chat with you

[00:32:26] About this film and again just

[00:32:28] Huge congratulations on

[00:32:30] It's been a long journey it's been a tough journey

[00:32:32] But it's coming out

[00:32:34] And I'm super happy for you

[00:32:36] Thank you this was so wonderful

[00:32:38] Thanks I'm really glad I had the chance to talk to you

[00:32:40] Hey everyone thank you so much for listening

[00:32:42] To MSSx interview with the director

[00:32:44] And star for the film People's Joker

[00:32:46] Vera Drew here on

[00:32:48] The Next Best Picture podcast

[00:32:50] People's Joker is now playing

[00:32:52] In select theaters

[00:32:54] You have been listening to the next best picture podcast

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[00:33:20] Next time

[00:33:42] History is complicated

[00:33:44] The story of human progress

[00:33:46] Is long

[00:33:48] Many years have passed

[00:33:50] And it's been a long time

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[00:33:54] That you're here

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[00:33:58] That you're here

[00:34:00] And I'm so proud

[00:34:02] That you're here

[00:34:04] And I'm so proud

[00:34:06] That you're here

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[00:34:10] Human progress is long

[00:34:12] Messy and riddled with controversies

[00:34:14] Big and small

[00:34:16] On conflicted, we dive head first

[00:34:18] Into history's most infamous events

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[00:34:36] In firebombing the German city of Dresden

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[00:34:40] And how did the Marquis de Sade

[00:34:42] Acquire such a sinister reputation?

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[00:34:46] These are just a few

[00:34:48] Of the tough questions we wrestle with

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