"Civil War"

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[00:00:30] You are listening to the Next Best Picture Podcast and this is our review of Civil War.

[00:00:36] The United States Army ramps up activity.

[00:00:40] The White House issued warnings to the Western forces as well as the Florida Alliance.

[00:00:44] The three-term president assures the uprising will be dealt with swiftly.

[00:00:48] Let me know if you want to try anything on.

[00:00:50] I guess the way it is like a pretty huge civil war going on all across America.

[00:00:55] We just try to stay out with what we see on the news seems like it's for the best.

[00:00:59] All right, everybody, you are just listening to your trailer for Civil War and the story

[00:01:04] is as follows.

[00:01:06] In a dystopian future America, a team of military embedded journalists races against

[00:01:11] time to reach Washington DC before rebel factions descend upon the White House.

[00:01:17] The film is starring Kirsten Dunst, Kaylee Spaney, Wagner Mora, Stephen McKinley Henderson,

[00:01:23] Nick Offerman, Sonoya Mizuno and Jesse Plemons.

[00:01:28] It is written and directed by Alex Garland and here to join me today for this podcast

[00:01:32] review I have Josh Parham.

[00:01:35] Hello hello and Tom O'Brien.

[00:01:38] Hi everybody.

[00:01:39] You guys are aware that there's like a pretty big civil war podcast taking place

[00:01:44] all across listeners ears right now.

[00:01:46] Well, we try just to stay out of it.

[00:01:48] We read the news.

[00:01:50] Try anything out if you'd like.

[00:01:52] So this movie is I believe to this day the largest budgeted A24 film to date.

[00:02:01] I believe so, yes.

[00:02:03] It's all part of their new business strategy to go into IMAX release, increase

[00:02:10] their budgets a little bit, a little bit.

[00:02:13] They're not making $150 million projects over here.

[00:02:17] But civil war is definitely the first in what is supposedly a new wave of A24 films

[00:02:25] that we're going to see over the next couple of years.

[00:02:28] Alex Garland has quite a long history with the studio and over the years has

[00:02:35] really gained a following, not just for the films that he has directed, but

[00:02:39] also for the films that he has written and not directed movies like

[00:02:43] 28 Days Later, Sunshine, Never Let Me Go.

[00:02:48] Then you have his directorial efforts of ex machina, annihilation, men.

[00:02:54] And I think we can all agree men is the one that has the least amount of fans

[00:02:58] out there.

[00:02:59] But the first two films ex machina, annihilation definitely were enough to

[00:03:04] now make him a must see director for any project that he makes.

[00:03:08] It always garners a lot of attention and buzz.

[00:03:10] Now, you throw on top of that this story of an actual civil war that is taking

[00:03:18] place in modern day America, where Texas and California, known as the Western

[00:03:25] forces have united against, I believe, the Northeast.

[00:03:31] The movie doesn't make that entirely clear because there are other states

[00:03:34] that are staying out of the conflict.

[00:03:37] Uh, and this is, I suppose, you know, meant to be some sort of a fantasy that

[00:03:44] is supposed to get people talking and is supposed to ignite this conversation

[00:03:47] about division and also to really shine a spotlight on journalists and their role

[00:03:56] in warfare and what they have to do to get the truth out there to people.

[00:04:02] Now.

[00:04:05] This movie's been sold, I think, a certain way in its marketing to people.

[00:04:09] And when it premiered itself by Southwest, there was definitely a lot of

[00:04:13] surprise from the audience.

[00:04:16] Seeing as how it was not exactly the movie that many people were expecting.

[00:04:21] I've seen a wide range of opinions.

[00:04:24] I'm very curious to hear what you all think.

[00:04:27] Starting off with Tom O'Brien.

[00:04:29] Tom, now that we know what Civil War is and isn't, what did you think of it?

[00:04:36] Ah, there's a lot to think about, a lot to talk about.

[00:04:41] And, you know, I was leaving the theater and processing my thoughts

[00:04:45] or all kinds of stuff going through my head.

[00:04:48] And on the drive home, one thing that came to mind from out of the blue

[00:04:54] was a quote from Macbeth of all things along the lines of something like

[00:05:00] life is a tale filled with sound and fury signifying nothing.

[00:05:06] And there's a lot of fury in Civil War and some expertly realized sound.

[00:05:15] But I kept going back to the signifying nothing part of that

[00:05:19] because it feels like there is something missing here.

[00:05:23] Now, I kind of fudged the Macbeth quote because actually the actual Macbeth quote

[00:05:27] is life is a tale told by an idiot filled with sound and fury, but signifying nothing.

[00:05:34] And Alex Garland is many things, but he's not an idiot.

[00:05:37] Agreed.

[00:05:39] He knows what he wants to say.

[00:05:42] Or maybe, I don't know, maybe in this case, what he doesn't want to say.

[00:05:47] You know, it's I remember, I think the three of us were on

[00:05:50] podcast back in December when the trailer for this first popped up and we talked about it.

[00:05:56] I think at the time, I said something to the effect of that.

[00:05:59] I thought that given the divisions in the country at that time,

[00:06:03] this is perhaps the movie we don't need at the moment,

[00:06:07] given how it was presented in the trailer,

[00:06:11] because what the trailer presented was suggested a lot of issues

[00:06:16] that were going to be explored in terms of the issues,

[00:06:20] the problems that are polarizing the country in this story and by extension

[00:06:27] in our own times.

[00:06:28] And I was really worried that it would become one of those red state,

[00:06:31] blue state movies that would really sick moviegoers against each other.

[00:06:37] Having seen it now, I'm not sure that's going to be the case because.

[00:06:43] The issues that I was afraid were going to be brought up and going to cause

[00:06:47] moviegoers to knock heads really aren't there in this.

[00:06:52] At least he doesn't present them that way.

[00:06:55] He said in interviews that he means this film to be a political.

[00:07:01] But the story tells it's a pretty familiar narrative trope.

[00:07:05] It's, you know, the young, fresh-eyed novice

[00:07:11] being mentored by an old grizzled veteran.

[00:07:14] And will this person really learn to learn the ropes?

[00:07:19] And it's it's his oldest time and it's done in very many different contexts.

[00:07:24] And ultimately, I wasn't as involved with that.

[00:07:27] But the issues that he brings up around them

[00:07:31] are so really flammable

[00:07:36] in terms of what is at the heart of the civil war that we're talking about

[00:07:42] is the fact that Garland leaves it up to us

[00:07:47] to draw every to draw the lines in terms of what's coming in.

[00:07:51] And for some people, I think that is responsible and not taking sides.

[00:07:58] For me, though, I think he's pulling his punches.

[00:08:02] And so getting back to what I talked about in the beginning,

[00:08:06] there's I just feel that there's something missing here.

[00:08:09] Despite the expert filmmaking or as Shakespeare is saying,

[00:08:14] things that are here signifying nothing.

[00:08:18] So that's kind of where I'm at, but I'm anxious to there's a lot of other issues

[00:08:21] I'm anxious to talk about.

[00:08:23] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:25] Josh, what about you?

[00:08:27] Because I remember when the trailer for Stratford is,

[00:08:29] I remember thinking to myself, well, this is a movie that I think just based

[00:08:33] on this alone, I'm going to like Josh is going to hate and we're going to do

[00:08:37] battle over this on the podcast.

[00:08:39] I'm not really feeling that way right now, but I'm curious to know

[00:08:43] just how much further in the opposite direction you are from Mayfittis.

[00:08:48] Yeah, I remember seeing that trailer and then even getting the initial

[00:08:52] reports out of South by Southwest where it premiered just feeling like

[00:08:57] I wasn't going to be a big fan of this movie that was going to really, really

[00:09:00] hate it. And, you know, I'll come out and say that I did not find myself

[00:09:06] loathing this movie as much as I thought I would.

[00:09:10] I did appreciate a lot of the craft in this film.

[00:09:13] I do think that, you know, it is a very well put together movie.

[00:09:18] I think that the sound design is really good.

[00:09:20] I think that some of the action spectacle is pretty well assembled.

[00:09:25] But I think ultimately I agree with Tom that this is a movie that doesn't

[00:09:30] have really much to say in that I found to be very underwhelming.

[00:09:35] And I get that the movie wants to be a political.

[00:09:39] I understand that that perspective, but I think the ultimate problem,

[00:09:43] though, is in choosing that method of storytelling, it ends up

[00:09:48] not providing any details really to this world.

[00:09:52] And I felt so much at a distance as to what people's motivations were.

[00:09:57] What was the motivation for this entire conflict?

[00:10:01] And those details, I think, are so necessary to get you invested

[00:10:05] in what the characters are going through and what they're pursuing

[00:10:08] and what their goals are.

[00:10:09] And I just found that to be so surface level and not character driven at all.

[00:10:16] The movie is very episodic and it feels very plot driven without giving me

[00:10:20] the details of what are the important pieces of that plot.

[00:10:24] And I just felt an emotional removed with the entire thing.

[00:10:28] So even though it was handsomely made and had good performances,

[00:10:31] I just felt kind of nothing while watching it.

[00:10:35] And for that, it was a pretty hollow experience and a movie

[00:10:40] that I did not care for, even if I didn't hate it.

[00:10:44] I'm pretty mixed on this movie.

[00:10:45] And that is a surprise because I went into this fooling expecting to love it.

[00:10:51] And I was not expecting that the reason why I would be so mixed on it

[00:10:55] was because it was a political.

[00:11:00] I actually thought that that was something that I would jive with

[00:11:03] and actually, you know, be more in tune with as far as Garland's intention goes.

[00:11:10] So I saw it for a second time last night

[00:11:12] because I really wanted to make sure that my feelings on this were concrete

[00:11:18] because after the first viewing, I was very perplexed.

[00:11:21] I was angry at times, slightly disappointed,

[00:11:25] also shook and rattled by certain sequences.

[00:11:29] It was an experience. I'll give it that.

[00:11:31] Like this is definitely an experience.

[00:11:34] And if we can get more movies like this out of A24 in the mid budget level range

[00:11:39] with storytelling that is going to be dark and provocative,

[00:11:43] like I'm all here for it.

[00:11:46] But the problem I have with this movie is that

[00:11:50] I understand that it's a fantasy, right?

[00:11:52] I understand that this is not meant to be taken literally.

[00:11:57] If it was, then Alex Garland really would have.

[00:12:02] Dived into Red versus Blue and really made this

[00:12:08] frighteningly more realistic in terms of what we actually are going through

[00:12:11] right now as a country.

[00:12:15] And by avoiding those real life issues that we are experiencing

[00:12:19] in real time during an election year,

[00:12:23] I felt that this movie could have taken place in any other country

[00:12:27] in the world during any other type of conflict,

[00:12:30] or it could have just been a straight up fantasy

[00:12:34] in an unnamed city.

[00:12:36] It like all this stuff just all of a sudden did not matter.

[00:12:41] And there's a scene in particular involving a sniper fight

[00:12:46] where the journalists are questioning the why behind what is happening.

[00:12:52] And the sniper turns to them and says,

[00:12:57] there's a guy in that house and he's trying to kill us.

[00:12:59] We are trying to kill him.

[00:13:01] And it's as simple as that.

[00:13:03] There is a conflict that is going on.

[00:13:05] These people are caught up in it.

[00:13:08] The political ideologies and the motivations behind what is happening

[00:13:12] are completely disregarded.

[00:13:14] It just boils down to people are trying to kill us.

[00:13:17] We're trying to kill them.

[00:13:18] And everything that's happening on a bureaucratic level

[00:13:21] is complete and utter bullshit.

[00:13:24] And in a way, then, too, he grounds this with the perspective

[00:13:29] of the journalists who also don't

[00:13:32] or shouldn't be asking those questions.

[00:13:35] They should be approaching this from a neutral perspective

[00:13:38] as a means to simply report the truth and facts

[00:13:41] to make sure that people back home know what is going on on the ground.

[00:13:47] And this was something that I found to be quite admirable.

[00:13:50] And I feel like I've seen this in other movies before as well.

[00:13:54] I was thinking a little bit of the Rosman Pike film,

[00:13:57] a private war while watching this at times.

[00:14:01] But.

[00:14:03] You know, when they say, oh, that really struck a nerve or oh,

[00:14:06] that hit too close to home.

[00:14:09] My own personal biasness really did start to come through

[00:14:12] while watching this movie because I do take the issues

[00:14:16] that are happening in this country very seriously.

[00:14:18] I do get very upset when I see that it is impacting people

[00:14:21] who I love and care about.

[00:14:23] And it is something that I am deeply terrified of as far as

[00:14:28] where this country is heading and the actual real

[00:14:33] not fictional real possibility of another civil war.

[00:14:38] So to kind of prey upon those fears and create this movie,

[00:14:43] but not actually have it comment on today's society at all

[00:14:48] and to kind of create this fictionalized version

[00:14:54] where California and Texas.

[00:14:58] What are united?

[00:15:03] Like I'm sorry, I was pulled out of the movie right away

[00:15:08] when that was not explained.

[00:15:11] And I remained outside of the movie, as you said, Josh,

[00:15:14] at an arm's length all throughout.

[00:15:16] There are some really incredible sequences in this movie.

[00:15:19] It is shot extremely well.

[00:15:21] The sound design is absolutely amazing at times.

[00:15:26] And I will gladly point out some specific examples.

[00:15:30] The performances are great across the board.

[00:15:32] There's a lot to like here,

[00:15:34] but I just think for me on a personal level

[00:15:37] and I want to be very clear just because I feel this way

[00:15:39] on a personal level does not mean that everyone else needs

[00:15:43] to feel this way.

[00:15:44] Does not mean that I am invalidating anybody else's

[00:15:47] perspective or feelings on this because I've seen so many

[00:15:50] people after I said this after my initial viewing say,

[00:15:54] oh, you just didn't get it.

[00:15:56] Oh, that's not where Garland was intending.

[00:15:57] Why are you saying that it has to have a political stance?

[00:16:01] I'm not saying it needed to have a political stance.

[00:16:04] I'm saying Alex Garland, I think, took a very safe route

[00:16:08] with this material and I think that it was honestly

[00:16:12] a bit foolish of him to take something that is so

[00:16:17] prevalent and real and genuinely terrifying

[00:16:21] to a lot of people right now and use that to kind

[00:16:23] of exploit, I think, our fears, but then to put it in a movie

[00:16:27] that doesn't actually

[00:16:32] comment on that and come to grips with any of that.

[00:16:34] And it's just like used as a means to lure us into the theater.

[00:16:38] I can see how it's possible that Ward

[00:16:41] a mouth on this movie from a marketing standpoint

[00:16:44] might dwindle over the next couple of days

[00:16:47] when people find out what this movie really is

[00:16:49] and not what it's being marketed as to all of our listeners

[00:16:53] of the next best picture podcast.

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[00:18:05] And the film, for me, the biggest issue with it is not even necessarily

[00:18:09] that it doesn't take a political stance because I can understand

[00:18:14] in a certain framework why it wants to place these journalists

[00:18:19] in a setting that, you know, for them, they should look at things

[00:18:23] objectively like that is the journalistic standard.

[00:18:26] And even though there's obviously wiggle room within there, like I can

[00:18:29] understand that framework.

[00:18:31] But what I take the biggest issue with is that, OK, you don't want to say

[00:18:36] a kind of officially what your political stance is,

[00:18:39] but I at least have to know what the details of this environment is

[00:18:44] because whenever you are creating something that doesn't exist at the moment,

[00:18:48] you have to give your audience the details about what is motivating

[00:18:52] all of these different actions so that even if you're not saying

[00:18:56] a moral stance of anything, we at least understand where we are.

[00:19:00] We can orient ourselves in terms of where people are headed in their goals.

[00:19:05] And it's just so hazy and so undefined here.

[00:19:10] It's just like general civil war.

[00:19:12] And on the one hand, I get it.

[00:19:14] You could certainly just look outside and point and say that's the reason

[00:19:18] why there's a civil war.

[00:19:18] Like I get that on a very like instinctual base level.

[00:19:22] But for the purposes of storytelling, like, yes, I would like to know

[00:19:26] what was the breaking point that pushed our country into this?

[00:19:29] What what is really the goal?

[00:19:32] Do they want the country to be reunited if they do?

[00:19:35] What are the things that the other states are going to fight for or sacrifice?

[00:19:40] Like those are very, very important things to get me knowing about what

[00:19:45] is actually happening.

[00:19:47] Like what am I supposed to be latching onto?

[00:19:49] And I don't think the movie answers any of those questions.

[00:19:52] And that is its biggest fallacy right there.

[00:19:55] There's a couple of things that I picked up on on a second viewing

[00:19:58] that sort of helped contextualize maybe a little bit from me.

[00:20:02] And it mostly had to do with Nick Offerman as the president

[00:20:06] of the United States in this movie.

[00:20:08] They mentioned that he's in a third term.

[00:20:11] They mentioned that he hasn't spoken to any press in 14 months.

[00:20:15] This signifies to me that he is a dictator type of leader

[00:20:23] who has shunned away the press and that I think is supposed

[00:20:29] to tell us that he is and whatever states are aligned with them

[00:20:34] because they don't make that part of it clear.

[00:20:37] They're supposed to be, I guess, the bad guys in this scenario.

[00:20:41] Supposedly.

[00:20:42] I mean, that's what I took away from it.

[00:20:44] And also because all the scenes where our group of journalists

[00:20:50] interact with any military men or women,

[00:20:53] it I think it appears, from my point of view,

[00:20:56] to be the Western forces that they are always tagging along with.

[00:21:02] Yeah, it seems that way.

[00:21:04] Garland can talk all he wants about being apolitical and not taking sides.

[00:21:08] But, dude, if you're having a president

[00:21:11] who throws the Constitution aside to get a third term

[00:21:16] and drops air bombs on civilian fellow Americans,

[00:21:21] dude, you're taking sides. Sorry.

[00:21:24] I know that that some of our best friends and colleagues

[00:21:28] at other websites have called the film brilliant

[00:21:31] and felt that Garland's dance is actually a very noble one,

[00:21:37] forcing us to, you know, it seems like he's forcing us to provide our own context,

[00:21:43] which I find very irresponsible.

[00:21:45] I mean, he says he tries to explain bringing Texas and California together

[00:21:50] to keep from it being a strictly American story.

[00:21:55] OK, you can argue there.

[00:21:56] But then why have you seen where Jesse Plemons is asking them?

[00:21:58] What kind of an American are you?

[00:22:00] Like, I don't even know what that means when he asks that question.

[00:22:04] No, though, that is, I think the scene that I thought the film was going.

[00:22:09] The whole film was going to be like me, too.

[00:22:11] You know, what is it? What kind of American are you that he asks?

[00:22:15] It's a chilling scene.

[00:22:17] Oh, it's the best scene in the movie.

[00:22:18] Yeah, it does give a hint, though,

[00:22:21] as to what the standards of Americans that he thinks are American

[00:22:27] are, you know, when he asks people as to where they're from, you know,

[00:22:31] there's one guy, he doesn't look like a real American pop.

[00:22:35] Another very interesting character who is a Hong Kong stringer.

[00:22:39] I'm from Hong Kong. Boom, you're dead.

[00:22:42] So I mean, there is an implied racial standard that seems to be made here.

[00:22:48] But again, he's withholding information from us.

[00:22:52] And that's what as Josh says, that's what's keeping us

[00:22:55] from being engaged with what we're seeing.

[00:22:58] There's a difference between allowing us to make up our own minds

[00:23:03] and being obtuse with the facts.

[00:23:06] I mean, I think I would argue that if a

[00:23:09] if a artist wants us to make up his own mind,

[00:23:14] he would lay out the facts on both sides

[00:23:18] fairly neutrally. Yes.

[00:23:20] With artistic nuance

[00:23:22] and then then allow us to make up our own mind.

[00:23:26] Sure. But here, we're just thrown into the deep end of the pool

[00:23:29] with very confused what few facts or remarks that we can hold on to.

[00:23:36] And it becomes very confusing as to what the sides are.

[00:23:39] You know, it's we even hear that Florida has its own army and its own issues.

[00:23:44] Again, never explained.

[00:23:46] So instead of drawing us in,

[00:23:50] it repels us from empathizing with the people

[00:23:55] in the film that we should really be feeling for.

[00:23:58] And also, who are like leading these states?

[00:24:01] Is it the governors of the states?

[00:24:03] Like that's never brought up either.

[00:24:06] The scene with Jesse Plumman's is another is another thing too, where

[00:24:10] I assume him and his men in that scene are part of the Western forces.

[00:24:15] But then it's never explained what it is that they're doing as far as

[00:24:22] massacring this entire town.

[00:24:25] Are they doing it for fun?

[00:24:26] Are they doing it on somebody's orders?

[00:24:28] Like, what situation have we found ourselves in?

[00:24:31] Obviously, it's a very tense situation and one that could cost them their lives

[00:24:37] because clearly, Plumman's and his men don't want to be seen doing

[00:24:40] what it is that they've done.

[00:24:43] But it's missing context to get me more invested in the scene.

[00:24:50] Because if I'm as a viewer, if I'm sitting there and I'm asking questions

[00:24:54] in real time as I'm watching the movie, I'm not engaging fully with the movie.

[00:24:58] I'm not lost in it.

[00:25:00] My mind is elsewhere.

[00:25:02] And that was a problem that I had consistently throughout because

[00:25:06] I think when this movie is on, it's really on.

[00:25:12] You know, as far as some of the battle sequences and, you know,

[00:25:16] just certainly, like Josh, you said before, it's like a very segmented type of film.

[00:25:21] But there are some standout sequences.

[00:25:24] But there's a lack of consistency here due to not having this context.

[00:25:30] And I think the movie certainly had potential to go into that.

[00:25:33] And I actually do find it to be an interesting concept

[00:25:37] to muddy a bit the sides of who your allegiance in a new civil war would be,

[00:25:45] especially if you consider, you know, the historical context of the last civil war.

[00:25:48] You know, for the most part, we are taught that the union was good

[00:25:53] and the secessionists were bad.

[00:25:55] I know some people disagree on that, but I feel like the majority has that opinion.

[00:26:00] And if you were to make another one or depict another one that would happen today,

[00:26:05] I think there's an interesting conversation that you could have

[00:26:08] about where your personal allegiance would lie and who is in the right

[00:26:13] and who was in the wrong.

[00:26:14] But I don't think this movie can even make that kind of discussion

[00:26:18] because in order to do that, you need to provide me with the foundation

[00:26:22] of where each side is coming from.

[00:26:24] Like, and that doesn't mean you then have to come down one way or the other yourself.

[00:26:29] But you need to give me like the tools to discover it on my own then.

[00:26:34] And the movie doesn't do that.

[00:26:35] I think what it instead does is give you just a very broad blanket portrait.

[00:26:42] And as Tom said, it allows you to fill in most of those gaps yourself.

[00:26:45] But I don't think that's that's sufficient for the storytelling here.

[00:26:50] And yeah, we do get some individual moments that are really, really well done.

[00:26:54] And I agree that the Jesse Plemmons scene is the best scene in the entire movie.

[00:26:59] But none of those are really strung together in a successful way,

[00:27:03] where it feels like the narrative itself has a consistent momentum to it.

[00:27:09] It's just very start and stop.

[00:27:11] And I never find myself getting deeper, deeper into investing

[00:27:15] myself into these characters.

[00:27:17] And that's very, very frustrating.

[00:27:19] I actually did find myself getting quite emotionally invested

[00:27:23] in Lee, Lee, Joel, Jesse and Sammy as like, you know, a traveling unit.

[00:27:29] I think the times where the movie isn't, as I mentioned before,

[00:27:33] causing me to ask questions and I'm just spending time with these people

[00:27:37] and getting their perspectives on their jobs and what they're trying to do.

[00:27:42] I actually thought that that was pretty strong.

[00:27:44] And I think all four of them do a really good job of anchoring this movie

[00:27:49] throughout. I think Kirsten Dunst, I actually think this is one of her best

[00:27:53] performances, even though I have some questions about what happens to her

[00:27:57] in the third act of this movie from a writing standpoint.

[00:28:00] Wagnamora, I think is so charismatic and so effortless to watch in this.

[00:28:05] I want to see him get more opportunities like this to,

[00:28:10] you know, on a scale such as this to show people what he can do

[00:28:12] because I think he's a very underrated actor.

[00:28:15] And Kaylee Spadey, my God, she is exploding now between this Priscilla

[00:28:22] and she has the upcoming alien Romulus,

[00:28:23] which I know we're all looking forward to to some degree or another.

[00:28:27] We've said before on the Priscilla podcast review that she is just

[00:28:32] having this moment where her career is really blooming now.

[00:28:36] And I'm just so excited to see more from her.

[00:28:39] And Stephen McKinley Henderson, it's like, you know,

[00:28:41] you add someone like that to your cast, you can't go wrong.

[00:28:44] Overshore. Yeah.

[00:28:45] So I think I think, you know, when the movie is just the four of them

[00:28:49] in the car or there's like a particularly great sequence

[00:28:53] at nighttime before they get up the next morning,

[00:28:56] where they're all having like these thoughtful conversations regarding

[00:29:00] like their roles and all of this and

[00:29:05] why they're doing what they're doing.

[00:29:06] And like Kirsten Dunce is also like reflecting back on

[00:29:10] all the times that she was in

[00:29:11] over war zones, sending a photograph or a story,

[00:29:15] like trying to convince us back at home

[00:29:19] to not fall into what these other countries have fallen into.

[00:29:24] And yet here we are and it happened to us anyway.

[00:29:27] So it's like calling into question,

[00:29:29] does the work that these people do ultimately matter if people are not

[00:29:33] listening and they are putting their lives at risk

[00:29:37] to send this information over?

[00:29:39] So I think that that if anything, like truly, if anything,

[00:29:45] I would hope that what people walk away from Civil War,

[00:29:49] take away the most from it.

[00:29:51] Is the heroic actions that wartime journalists and anybody

[00:29:56] has to throw themselves into a very dangerous situation like this

[00:30:01] to tell the truth.

[00:30:03] I really hope that this like just solidifies in people's minds

[00:30:06] just how important these people are and the truth matters.

[00:30:10] And the truth is something that is sometimes very hard

[00:30:15] to capture and communicate, but there are people out there

[00:30:19] who are willing to do it and put their lives on the line for.

[00:30:22] And they should be, I think, celebrated for that.

[00:30:25] I think too that the film demonstrates how fragile

[00:30:28] that is that this can go away in a second.

[00:30:32] There's a when we first meet Stephen McKinney Henderson,

[00:30:35] he mentions that he works for what's left of the New York Times.

[00:30:40] Well, we have really no idea what the media world is.

[00:30:44] One of the many things we don't know out there,

[00:30:46] but will their reporting get out?

[00:30:49] They do mention that when they go to Washington, D.C.,

[00:30:53] then D.C. reporters are shot on site.

[00:30:56] Another thing that also signifies to me that I suppose

[00:31:00] whatever coalition Nick Offerman is running,

[00:31:04] they're meant to be the bad guys.

[00:31:05] And you know, yes, it's fanciful, but you know,

[00:31:08] we may be just a few steps away from that happening here

[00:31:12] given how demonized the press is being in some quarters.

[00:31:16] So that it is, if anything, a celebration of the of the press.

[00:31:25] And you know, it's and having very rich characters.

[00:31:30] These four characters are very rich, very finely detailed

[00:31:34] and having such remarkable actors in the part.

[00:31:38] They do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of bringing us up into the story.

[00:31:44] But there are times when even they really can't get around what's missing.

[00:31:50] I mean, I found myself at times there are scenes in this

[00:31:53] that when they're driving down totally empty roads

[00:31:58] and there's guys with guns guarding fuel.

[00:32:02] I mean, it just reminded me of 28 days later, as much as anything else

[00:32:07] that this is in its own way a zombie movie

[00:32:11] that these four intrepid folks are just venturing out into areas

[00:32:17] where they can be killed at any time and they don't know what's around the corner.

[00:32:21] And in that sense, it's very much a Garland film.

[00:32:23] It reminded me of not only 28 days later, but also in its own way, an annihilation.

[00:32:29] And one of Garland's strengths as a storyteller is he creates

[00:32:34] a very good core of characters for us to root for.

[00:32:38] Here, though, you just don't know why they are doing what they're doing

[00:32:44] because we don't understand what's out there.

[00:32:46] Well, that was the thing I was also like trying to piece together to,

[00:32:49] you know, Joel explicitly states that he wants to interview

[00:32:55] the president before the Western forces get to Washington, DC.

[00:33:00] Lee is going to take his picture.

[00:33:03] So we know that that's the reason why they're going.

[00:33:07] And you might say this is a very ridiculous plan and it's suicide.

[00:33:11] And the movie does call that out, at least, which I appreciated.

[00:33:15] But Joel justifies it by saying it's the only story that's left

[00:33:19] because clearly we're coming to the end of this civil war, it seems like.

[00:33:24] And this may be the only thing that's left that's worth telling

[00:33:30] is the president's side, I suppose, at this point.

[00:33:35] Sammy is trying to get to Charlottesville.

[00:33:41] For reasons that I honestly, I can't remember.

[00:33:44] Yeah, there's something happening there.

[00:33:46] It seems more of just a reason to justify him being on the trip.

[00:33:53] Yeah, I actually have to disagree a little bit about the characters.

[00:33:58] I think that's actually one thing that I found myself not really caring

[00:34:02] that much about.

[00:34:03] And I think that the performances are really good.

[00:34:06] But I think all of these actors are playing very standard archetypes

[00:34:11] that don't really do much to dig beneath that surface.

[00:34:15] Like Joel is the, you know, very hot head kind of reporter

[00:34:20] who loves to be in war zones.

[00:34:23] You know, Lee is the experienced photographer, but she's rather cynical.

[00:34:29] And then you've got the newbie and like I just found

[00:34:32] that none of these people really did anything on a character level

[00:34:36] that found that I found to be really interesting.

[00:34:38] And I like the performances.

[00:34:39] I like what the actors are bringing to them.

[00:34:41] I thought all of them had a great deal of screen presence,

[00:34:43] but the characters themselves, like also their motivations felt so

[00:34:48] surface level and standard.

[00:34:51] And like to the point where even with somebody like Joel,

[00:34:53] I was even struggling to understand like what makes him a good reporter

[00:34:57] or is that even the point?

[00:34:59] I don't know. I know so little about him.

[00:35:01] I don't really even understand if him kind of kind of seeming bad at his job.

[00:35:06] Maybe he is a point, but to me, those characters felt so ill-defined

[00:35:11] that I had trouble connecting with them as well.

[00:35:14] And if I did, it was only to the extent that their performances

[00:35:17] were really drawing me in.

[00:35:18] But from a writing standpoint, I actually found them to be pretty flat

[00:35:23] on a structural level, as far as getting characters from point A to point B.

[00:35:29] I understand Garland's motivation for pushing Jesse

[00:35:37] where he does in the third act and consequently

[00:35:43] where he pushes Lee, you know,

[00:35:46] the two essentially end up swapping roles in the third act of this movie.

[00:35:53] I get that from an intention standpoint.

[00:35:57] I had a lot of trouble with the execution of it

[00:36:01] because I did not feel like I had enough.

[00:36:09] Signifiers, I guess is the word I will use to understand why Lee

[00:36:15] was behaving the way that she was behaving.

[00:36:17] And then there is a selfless act

[00:36:20] that is a callback to a conversation that she has with Jesse earlier on in the movie

[00:36:26] regarding, you know, would you take a photo if, you know, something, you know,

[00:36:29] like if I got shot or something like that.

[00:36:31] And while I appreciate the callback,

[00:36:35] because I always like callbacks in movies,

[00:36:38] I felt that this particular moment really robbed the character of Lee of

[00:36:45] in my opinion, like I just did not feel that her ending

[00:36:49] and how her character was handled in the third act was completely justified.

[00:36:53] And Jesse becoming that almost like in a heartlocker sort of way, war junkie,

[00:37:01] where she mentions I've never been more scared, but I've also never felt more alive.

[00:37:06] And we see that also through Joel,

[00:37:09] like when all the gunfire is happening and he turns to Jesse and he smiles

[00:37:13] like while this is all taking place.

[00:37:16] I understand like the rush and the feeling

[00:37:19] and there's never seen it also like Joel after they have

[00:37:23] a very tense situation that they avoid.

[00:37:25] He goes, oh, what a fucking rush or something like that while they're driving away.

[00:37:31] I get all of that.

[00:37:32] I truly do.

[00:37:33] But I personally just did not feel that what Garland

[00:37:38] was trying to do with the character of Lee Smith

[00:37:41] and charting her arc throughout this movie.

[00:37:45] Like I felt like there were pieces missing for me to fully buy

[00:37:50] where she ultimately ends up by the end of all this.

[00:37:54] Yeah, her reaction to everything in the third act,

[00:37:59] particularly near the end of the third act is in sharp contrast

[00:38:03] with how detailed her character is drawn early on.

[00:38:08] I do agree.

[00:38:08] I do see Josh's point about them being stereotyped archetypes, I should say.

[00:38:13] Yes.

[00:38:14] You know, they do feel roles because actually the

[00:38:18] the story of them swapping places in real life

[00:38:23] and the student becomes the teacher is pretty familiar.

[00:38:29] And we all sort of knew where that was going.

[00:38:31] But I found myself losing Lee in that third act.

[00:38:36] There were shots of her turning away that I had no idea what was going on

[00:38:41] because there's no seeds planted on that.

[00:38:43] You're absolutely right.

[00:38:44] It feels like there is a monologue or something about in the aftermath

[00:38:48] of what happens to Sammy that I feel like we were missing

[00:38:52] contextually to kind of get better in a better place with her headspace.

[00:38:57] Yeah, because I don't know exactly what it is that causes her to crack.

[00:39:01] No, and I think that as good as Dunst is, and she's she's excellent in this,

[00:39:07] not even her skill can communicate that to us.

[00:39:09] I just found myself, whoa, what's going on with her?

[00:39:13] And it kind of also that took me out of the movie.

[00:39:17] And her character has been consistent all the way through.

[00:39:20] And that final moment that you talked about, Matt,

[00:39:24] it just seems not the way it's shot seems nonsensical.

[00:39:28] It seems like she pauses far too long as if this is a deliberate act

[00:39:35] of sacrifice that, again, is tied up in the way she's behaving

[00:39:41] in the third act.

[00:39:42] So I found myself walking away from it very puzzled as to who Lee was ultimately.

[00:39:48] And then you have Joel, who's.

[00:39:51] Crying and screaming his heart out over the death of Sammy earlier.

[00:39:56] But by the time this happens to Lee, he's just so fed up

[00:40:01] that he doesn't even emotionally react to it.

[00:40:03] He just pushes on and pretty much tells the Western forces back to fuck up.

[00:40:10] I've come too far.

[00:40:11] I'm getting my goddamn quote.

[00:40:15] I kind of appreciated like I've lost friends.

[00:40:18] I am fed up.

[00:40:20] I am getting what I came for.

[00:40:21] You will like give me this.

[00:40:24] I did appreciate like that perspective.

[00:40:27] But at the same time, I did feel that it did a disservice to Lee

[00:40:30] and we didn't get a chance to.

[00:40:33] I just I don't know.

[00:40:35] I just feel like that character deserved a better ending.

[00:40:40] I do think that the death of Sammy probably is meant to be

[00:40:45] the tipping point moment for her.

[00:40:47] I think that's really the only way you can reach it with them.

[00:40:51] You give me so few details.

[00:40:53] And as was said, I think the problem is that that switch is not seated very well.

[00:40:59] It is not planted within different parts of the story to lead you down the path

[00:41:04] that that would be something that would affect her on that level.

[00:41:07] Because I mean, yeah, on the one hand, it's a very kind of typical trope

[00:41:12] that the person who says they don't really care about the well-being of others

[00:41:15] actually does and then when something does happen, it really affects them.

[00:41:19] But I don't think the movie does a good enough job of convincing us

[00:41:25] in the earlier parts of the story.

[00:41:27] And when we do get to the end,

[00:41:28] yes, it's a very dramatic turn for her and I love Dunstan's performance.

[00:41:33] But I don't feel like it is ever really justified all that well.

[00:41:37] And I get I end up getting just more so frustrated at that moment,

[00:41:41] along with just all of this this action that's happening, which is very exciting,

[00:41:45] but also like leading to a conclusion that it's like I

[00:41:49] I didn't really care about the president at that point.

[00:41:52] Like, you know, I lost interest in that.

[00:41:55] And like, oh, right, that's what this whole finale is right now.

[00:41:59] And I am struggling to care.

[00:42:02] I do want to comment on a positive here.

[00:42:05] And that is the technical work on display because first and foremost,

[00:42:11] Rob Hardy, I think is one of the most underrated best cinematographers working today.

[00:42:19] I've said this before on our podcast reviews for

[00:42:22] Annihilation Mission Impossible Fallout.

[00:42:25] I believe I even mentioned it when we reviewed men.

[00:42:29] I need to see more work from this guy.

[00:42:31] Oh, my God.

[00:42:32] Like there are some images and the way that he plays with the large format,

[00:42:38] the shallow depth of field.

[00:42:40] There's one shot in particular of Lee and Jesse sitting.

[00:42:46] I think if I remember correctly, it was like a bench of some sort.

[00:42:50] And in the background is like the lake and you can see the light from the sun

[00:42:55] bouncing off of the lake.

[00:42:56] And it's like this just just amazing, amazing depth of field shot that I just

[00:43:03] was like, wow, that is so beautiful.

[00:43:05] Like they're in focus.

[00:43:06] That's all out of focus.

[00:43:07] Holy shit.

[00:43:08] It looked amazing.

[00:43:10] There are many, many sequences in this movie where I thought the

[00:43:13] camera work was really, really fantastic.

[00:43:16] And you couple that along with the sound work in this film,

[00:43:20] the way that this movie can just pummel you with its sound.

[00:43:26] The gunfire in this movie reminded me so much of watching something like

[00:43:29] Michael Mann's Heat where it felt so real.

[00:43:34] I genuinely really felt like if anybody watches this in a premium

[00:43:37] format like Dolby or IMAX, oh my God, you're going to feel like

[00:43:40] you really did enter a war zone, especially in the third act of this

[00:43:44] movie, it's pretty immersive.

[00:43:47] Yeah, those elements are very, very well done, especially the sound design,

[00:43:51] which at times feels like it provides more jump scares than many modern

[00:43:57] horror movies these days.

[00:43:59] Like it really does hit you with a giant impact.

[00:44:02] And no matter what my faults that I give the movie based on its narrative,

[00:44:08] I do think that the craft is pretty exceptional.

[00:44:11] And that is an element that does get you invested in what you're seeing.

[00:44:16] That that is the immersive element here.

[00:44:18] And even if I have a problem with my emotional attachment to the characters

[00:44:24] and the story, I do think that the craft does a pretty decent job

[00:44:27] of pulling the audience into that particular world.

[00:44:30] And yeah, that does deserve a lot of credit.

[00:44:33] I also want to call out the production design of this movie

[00:44:36] because I feel like that's an element that is not getting

[00:44:39] called out as much as the cinematography and the sound,

[00:44:43] particularly the helicopter and the J.C.

[00:44:46] Penny's parking lot, the all the bodies when Jesse falls into that pit,

[00:44:53] all the cars along the Pennsylvania like highway.

[00:44:56] Oh, yeah.

[00:44:57] There's so many standout moments of production design

[00:45:00] where I was just thinking to myself, my God, this must have taken them

[00:45:03] so long to set up.

[00:45:04] And, you know, because it's a contemporary film,

[00:45:08] it's not going to get that level of praise, but I want to take a moment

[00:45:11] to single it out. No, I think that that's a very deserving shout out.

[00:45:16] They have to also recreate the White House on top of that.

[00:45:19] Oh, God, yeah.

[00:45:20] The board knows they didn't let them shoot this at the White House.

[00:45:23] Super real.

[00:45:25] But I mean, there's there's a level of verisimilitude there

[00:45:29] that you feel like you're in the Oval Office

[00:45:32] and these horrors are going on right there in front of the resolution desk.

[00:45:36] Yeah. It's a really.

[00:45:38] It's a wonderfully crafted film.

[00:45:40] And I have to confess that when I wasn't particularly involved with the narrative,

[00:45:45] watching the crafts made me got me through a lot of this

[00:45:49] because they were just so, you know, A1 and like two moments of sound

[00:45:53] that are really sticking out to me right now.

[00:45:56] The opening credits of just the A24 logo

[00:46:00] and the left, right channel of the static of the radio.

[00:46:03] I was like, oh, this is great already.

[00:46:06] I was like, I'm in. Let's go.

[00:46:08] I was so pumped when the movie started just started with that.

[00:46:12] And at the other moment that stood out to me also in the beginning

[00:46:16] when a suicide bomber rushes into a crowd and the bomb goes off

[00:46:20] and Lee tackles Jesse like down to the floor and then they emerge up.

[00:46:25] Normally in a moment like this in a film, you would start to hear

[00:46:28] like the ringing sound that one would get in the aftermath of a loud explosion.

[00:46:35] This movie just goes for complete silence.

[00:46:38] And the moment where you hear sound again is the clicking of the snapping of a photo.

[00:46:44] And I thought that that was extremely effective with regards to

[00:46:49] once again, just highlighting the work that war photographers do in moments such as this.

[00:46:55] Yeah, I really liked the the construction of the sound design

[00:46:59] and the opening of the movie.

[00:47:00] And there is something to be said about the idea that after this

[00:47:05] like giant tragedy that they see, the only sound that you get is just

[00:47:10] that clicking of the of the camera like that.

[00:47:13] That is like kind of an interesting commentary that you can give

[00:47:16] that you sort of need to just strip everything away.

[00:47:19] And for these journalists, it's only about capturing that photo.

[00:47:23] I just wish that maybe that was a theme that felt a little bit more

[00:47:27] resonant throughout the entire movie.

[00:47:29] And I that would have been helped if I had a sense of like

[00:47:34] what it is that they were really tracking and following.

[00:47:37] And I just feel like the movie lets itself so much down by its

[00:47:42] lack of commitment to its storytelling.

[00:47:44] But yes, there are ideas and potential that could be built up.

[00:47:47] And I do think they are seen in some instances, but not nearly enough for me.

[00:47:53] Now, I'm curious to know for you guys,

[00:47:54] if you experienced a similar thing that I felt here.

[00:47:57] And I think this happens a lot with films that get released at film festivals.

[00:48:01] Lord knows, I know I've contributed to it in the past sometimes.

[00:48:07] When there is a reaction to a movie at a festival,

[00:48:10] it starts to build a certain expectation in your mind.

[00:48:14] I went into this thinking that this was actually going to be

[00:48:17] more violent and more disturbing than what it was.

[00:48:22] Now, granted, there are some sequences in this movie

[00:48:25] that are horrific and are really disturbing.

[00:48:31] But the way this was talked about, I thought I was going to be heading

[00:48:35] into something that was going to really give me nightmares.

[00:48:38] Now, maybe that's just me desensitized by seeing so many

[00:48:42] violent films over the years, both in fantastical settings

[00:48:47] and also in realistic settings.

[00:48:50] And I do think that what we get here is effective.

[00:48:52] But did you guys get the sense that you thought that there would be more?

[00:48:57] I was expecting something more politically upsetting

[00:49:02] for me than necessarily violence.

[00:49:05] I did sense there was and this is I'm also very guilty about

[00:49:12] festival fever and over overpraising or over explaining

[00:49:16] things that I see in that atmosphere.

[00:49:19] But the word masterpiece was thrown about so casually

[00:49:24] in some of the South by Southwest reactions that I thought there was

[00:49:29] going to be more of a political complexity to it with and that the violence

[00:49:34] would be in service of that.

[00:49:36] So in that sense, and that was the area that I felt very disappointed in.

[00:49:41] Yeah, for me, the violence, I think you definitely get

[00:49:45] a sense of how disturbing it can be.

[00:49:47] And I think another probably my second favorite scene,

[00:49:52] you know, because the Jesse Plemmons piece, that's my favorite.

[00:49:55] But I think the second place for me would be when they stop for gas.

[00:49:59] And that's a moment when they come across these guys

[00:50:03] that already have this very sinister aura to them

[00:50:06] and you're just anticipating something bad happening.

[00:50:09] And then you see these other guys that have been strung up

[00:50:13] and tortured by them.

[00:50:14] And like that's a moment of where you see violence

[00:50:18] that is not overly graphic, but it is very, very unsettling.

[00:50:22] And it's almost like you are just imagining the the worst bits

[00:50:26] of that torture in your mind because they don't actually show it.

[00:50:29] And so that's an example where the violence is used,

[00:50:32] I think in a pretty effective way and as a means to build tension

[00:50:37] and a sense of unease with that situation.

[00:50:40] And and so for me, that's where most of the like effective portrayals

[00:50:45] of the violence are in this movie.

[00:50:46] It's not really in terms of how over the top of graphic they can be,

[00:50:50] but how much they can make you uncomfortable in that moment

[00:50:54] with the whole tension that is in the atmosphere of those particular scenes.

[00:51:01] And what do you guys think of the final shot that plays over the credits?

[00:51:05] With the photograph that she takes?

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:08] I mean, it's like I get it.

[00:51:10] I understand.

[00:51:12] But once again, by that point,

[00:51:15] I personally just did not care about their mission to get to the president all that much.

[00:51:19] And, you know, other people might disagree.

[00:51:21] They are probably just invested in the action and the resolution at that point.

[00:51:25] But I just felt so much at a distance that

[00:51:29] while ending it with that final shot makes sense,

[00:51:32] because that's what we're hurling towards, I just felt such

[00:51:37] it landed with such a light touch to me.

[00:51:40] It did not have the impact that I feel like it should have.

[00:51:43] And that was just because I was not invested in the storytelling at that point.

[00:51:47] I was trying to piece together from a realistic standpoint,

[00:51:51] like would this be something that would play out in real life?

[00:51:54] I suppose in this world that Garland has created and made sense

[00:51:59] given the type of president that Nick Offerman is portrayed to be.

[00:52:03] But I was thinking like in a realistic setting

[00:52:06] if this actually were to take place,

[00:52:09] I don't think that they would have gone so far as to just like executing him

[00:52:13] on site like this and they probably would have taken him

[00:52:17] for capture is my guess.

[00:52:19] I almost got the sense at times that

[00:52:21] they were trying to recreate the Osama bin Laden raid

[00:52:25] in the final act of this movie.

[00:52:28] That was like the vibe I got from it.

[00:52:30] Yeah. And but like it's like once again,

[00:52:33] it goes back to the sense of world building here is like, yeah,

[00:52:38] if your mission is to get into the White House to kill the president,

[00:52:42] like not have him surrender authority or anything,

[00:52:46] which it kind of seems like that's usually the goal of a civil war.

[00:52:49] It certainly was the goal of the last one.

[00:52:50] Like he's the president for some things afterwards.

[00:52:54] Like what what is it that we're working towards?

[00:52:57] What is the goal of actually killing the president at this point?

[00:53:01] And I don't have an answer to that.

[00:53:04] And I don't think the movie provides us with that answer either.

[00:53:07] And that's what makes it so frustrating is that by not giving us that,

[00:53:11] it's I think the movie wants us to believe then

[00:53:14] it doesn't have a point of view and it wants to be objective.

[00:53:17] But.

[00:53:18] Objectivity is one thing, but I still need to have some perspective.

[00:53:22] And I don't think this film has any of that.

[00:53:25] No, no, I personally found the last shot

[00:53:30] would have been much more effective as a still frame quickly and then gone.

[00:53:35] I think what little we can piece together of the emotions involved with this war,

[00:53:41] I think the killing of the president, I think in a more strategic war,

[00:53:45] they would have taken him away.

[00:53:47] I think there's just a lot of blood lust that the film has shown us for two hours.

[00:53:51] So killing the president on the floor of the Oval Office

[00:53:56] made sense for this film.

[00:53:58] Plus, it is going to be the iconic photo that

[00:54:03] Jesse is going to be remembered for for the rest of her life.

[00:54:07] And one everything I want to bring up before we get the final thoughts here.

[00:54:11] I was also wondering to, you know, Garland not being American himself.

[00:54:15] I was wondering if there was maybe also intentionality behind

[00:54:23] maybe the stance that he decided to take with making this movie apolitical

[00:54:28] and setting it within America is something that.

[00:54:33] He was commenting on how there have been American movies in the past

[00:54:37] about conflicts overseas, particularly in the Middle East.

[00:54:42] And I don't think that whenever we engage with those movies,

[00:54:46] we ever stop to consider what citizens,

[00:54:50] casual citizens in those countries think about those films

[00:54:54] and how their side is depicted and their country is depicted

[00:54:57] and so on and so forth.

[00:54:59] And I was wondering if maybe there was a little bit of that supposedly going on here, too.

[00:55:04] But maybe I'm giving him too much credit with that.

[00:55:07] Well, you know, there are you cited the Rosman Pike movie.

[00:55:13] And there's also stuff from the late 20th century.

[00:55:16] I'm thinking specifically about war journalists films like

[00:55:19] The Year Living Dangerously and Under Fire and Salvador.

[00:55:24] Those are, you know, American journalists fighting a war that did not involve

[00:55:31] people who necessarily look like many of us.

[00:55:34] So there what what they were fighting about was very

[00:55:39] distant, perhaps from what our concerns were.

[00:55:44] I think Garland missed a big opportunity here because there is

[00:55:48] a chance of having depicting a war where

[00:55:53] you are fighting someone who looks like your brother or your sister.

[00:55:57] And what what how to cover a war where

[00:56:02] the combatant that you are seeing with a machine gun is your next door neighbor.

[00:56:07] I got very little sense of that.

[00:56:09] There's a little bit in in in the I think the Christmas tree battle

[00:56:15] there's somebody said, oh, well, I went to school with them or something like that.

[00:56:19] But I think that Garland's desire

[00:56:23] to make this more universal and not make it a specifically American issue, civil war,

[00:56:29] and to have it be as neutral as possible.

[00:56:32] So the other countries who see this film will apply it to them.

[00:56:35] I think it's misguided and has missed has really

[00:56:40] deprived of an interesting character opportunity

[00:56:43] to capture a moment in our country's history that really

[00:56:47] could have used a very an artistic eye towards

[00:56:53] making us understand what's really going on.

[00:56:55] But I do also think that the point of the way that many Americans

[00:57:02] view conflicts that happen in other countries with their own sense of emotional distance

[00:57:07] is a good point to bring up.

[00:57:09] And I think it's a valid one and to turn that around on something

[00:57:13] that would happen in the United States and and still feel that sense of

[00:57:17] remove the way that Americans do for other people.

[00:57:20] I absolutely think is very, very valid.

[00:57:22] It's a fascinating thesis to work with.

[00:57:25] But if you're going to do that,

[00:57:27] I think you then still have to interrogate the idea that you have to call

[00:57:31] attention to the the methodology that you're practicing in

[00:57:36] and actually make a commentary about that.

[00:57:39] And the movie doesn't do that.

[00:57:42] So you can argue that it is the reason why we are so emotionally distant

[00:57:46] is because that's how Americans view other people.

[00:57:49] It's like, great, love it, run with it.

[00:57:51] But then actually talk about it, actually explain and delve into it.

[00:57:55] And I don't think the movie does that.

[00:57:57] And so then it just sort of ends up feeling like that's an excuse

[00:58:01] as to why you're not emotionally invested and not

[00:58:05] not really explaining that that is a deliberate tactic.

[00:58:08] And that's what I find very underwhelming about Garland storytelling,

[00:58:12] is that there's all these places where there's potential for these really

[00:58:16] interesting ideas and commentaries, but it doesn't

[00:58:20] product them enough for me to feel a sense of status,

[00:58:24] you know, a sense of satisfaction with that.

[00:58:26] And I find that to be so, so frustrating, as I've said throughout this entire review.

[00:58:31] All right, let's get over to final thoughts.

[00:58:34] Here. So anything that we did not mention that you want to bring up

[00:58:38] or something you want to reiterate, and we will pass it over first to Tom O'Brien.

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[00:59:14] This one that I'd element that I think that I was

[00:59:17] fascinated by was the part of the populace

[00:59:23] who doesn't even think about this war.

[00:59:26] They want to keep their lives as normal as possible.

[00:59:29] And, you know, come on into my dress shop and look around and

[00:59:35] leave parents, for example, trying to keep just the distance they want to keep

[00:59:39] their farm and the like.

[00:59:41] There is a no nothing part of the population, probably of any country.

[00:59:48] But certainly I could we heard about it in the United States.

[00:59:53] Well, I think that in this movie, too, they make a point of saying

[00:59:57] that even those who want to keep out and not get involved and

[01:00:02] not be a part of the fighting in any way, like that scene where they go to

[01:00:05] the town that exemplifies this, they do make a point to show that there

[01:00:10] are still armed men like on the roofs.

[01:00:13] So it's all really a delusion on their part.

[01:00:19] And the war is impacting everyone one way or another.

[01:00:23] You may not be involved directly in the fighting,

[01:00:27] but that doesn't mean that the war is not impacting you.

[01:00:31] And maybe someday might even arrive at your doorstep as seen in the scene

[01:00:35] with like Jesse Plemmons and all those people not dressed in uniform.

[01:00:40] Like to my knowledge, based on what I see in this movie,

[01:00:44] those are citizens who have been massacred.

[01:00:48] Why? We do not know.

[01:00:50] But I'm sure they too had no intention of being brought into this

[01:00:55] conflict and yet there they were.

[01:00:58] Yeah, I can imagine all those people lying there in the back of the truck.

[01:01:03] They may have faced the same question of what kind of American are you?

[01:01:08] And failed that test.

[01:01:10] And that's a lot of what gives that scene that punch.

[01:01:15] That's it for me. OK.

[01:01:17] Josh Parham, what about you?

[01:01:20] My father thought actually was also going to be about that scene

[01:01:23] when they entered that town, which once again, an interesting concept

[01:01:27] that I don't think the movie really does much with.

[01:01:30] But it did lead to one of my favorite shots in the movie,

[01:01:33] which was when they go outside the store.

[01:01:36] And I think it is Lee and Sammy having a conversation

[01:01:42] and there's a mention of just the rooftops.

[01:01:45] And it's just a very slow tilt up from the camera

[01:01:49] to reveal the people on the rooftops with their rifles.

[01:01:52] And I thought that was a really, really effective shot that was very simple.

[01:01:57] You know, it's not very complicated in its design,

[01:01:59] but it was really effective to sell the contrast between this idyllic,

[01:02:05] quiet setting, but still there's an atmosphere of danger around

[01:02:09] that you need to be aware of.

[01:02:10] And so that was a scene that I thought was really, really

[01:02:14] well communicated in terms of exploring that kind of tension.

[01:02:18] And I very much appreciated it.

[01:02:21] So I remember there was a little bit of commentary about this out of South by

[01:02:25] Southwest, but not a lot.

[01:02:27] And I haven't really heard it brought up since.

[01:02:30] But I did notice on my second viewing that

[01:02:34] there's a lot of moments of violence in this movie, particularly done to people of color.

[01:02:39] Did any of you like catch with of this while watching it?

[01:02:43] Well, certainly in the Jesse Plemons scene when he kills the two other reporters.

[01:02:49] Absolutely that.

[01:02:50] But there's a scene where a guy is lit on fire in front of everyone.

[01:02:57] There's

[01:02:59] the woman who comes out to

[01:03:02] negotiate on behalf of the president and she gets killed in that moment.

[01:03:09] She was a person of color, the scene where the Western forces are fighting.

[01:03:14] And there's one in particular, he's like hiding behind a column.

[01:03:18] He was a black man who gets shot at that scene.

[01:03:21] Like I I didn't notice it on the first viewing, but then I and I can't

[01:03:28] try to remember like who was that brought this up out of South by Southwest.

[01:03:32] It might have been Valerie complex.

[01:03:36] But I but I can't I can't recall and I do apologize for that.

[01:03:40] But I noticed it more on the second viewing and,

[01:03:43] you know, I think it could be coincidental.

[01:03:45] I don't really have anything necessarily to say about it.

[01:03:48] It was just something that really stood out to me more on a second viewing is all.

[01:03:53] I think that it is a clue as to what the

[01:03:57] what it could be a clue to the answer to what Jesse Plemons is asking.

[01:04:02] What kind of American are you?

[01:04:05] And it may be very easy for a white guy with a gun

[01:04:09] to think that someone or the person of color in front of them is not really an

[01:04:13] American. That I mean, right now we're all grasping at straws as to what the context

[01:04:19] of this of the battle is.

[01:04:21] But I think this is a valuable one to hold on to at least as far as the clues

[01:04:25] that have been given to us in the film.

[01:04:27] Sure.

[01:04:28] I definitely can understand reading that into the movie.

[01:04:31] I think the reason why I don't particularly find that a fault is just

[01:04:37] because it to me just feels like it's more of a part of the overall

[01:04:42] violence that the movie wants to show.

[01:04:44] Yes, that Secret Service Agent is killed, but there are many Secret Service

[01:04:50] agents that are killed right before that moment that are all just bland looking

[01:04:54] white guys and of course it is then followed by them killing the president.

[01:04:59] So to me, it just feels like more of a of a piece within the overall violence

[01:05:03] happening in the finale.

[01:05:04] And I would say that for the other sequences too.

[01:05:07] And yeah, the only time we ever get a direct commentary is with the Jesse

[01:05:12] Plemmons scene, which is appreciated because it does start to finally give you

[01:05:18] some details of these people's motivations.

[01:05:21] But I don't think that it's necessarily like any commentary that the movie is

[01:05:27] is working with in terms of how these people of color are killed.

[01:05:32] Like, like even when when Sammy dies is just more so like, well,

[01:05:36] they were shooting at the car and it felt like this was a moment someone was going

[01:05:39] to die and I look at who's in that car is probably not going to be the other three

[01:05:44] at this moment. So I'm going to guess who's going to get to the short straw here.

[01:05:48] That just feels more out of like lazy writing than anything else.

[01:05:51] And it just happens to be, you know,

[01:05:54] Henderson was playing that role.

[01:05:56] So I don't think there's really anything in city is happening with

[01:06:00] with that necessary depiction.

[01:06:02] I just feel like the movie is very lazy and that's the biggest issue.

[01:06:06] Yeah, yeah, I would agree more so with that.

[01:06:08] I think it's coincidental, but does

[01:06:11] it is underlined by

[01:06:14] laziness is definitely a word for it.

[01:06:18] I hated the music cues in this movie.

[01:06:20] Oh, God, they were so awful.

[01:06:22] The needle drops.

[01:06:23] Oh, yeah.

[01:06:25] I don't know.

[01:06:26] I don't know.

[01:06:27] Like, do you want me to be so

[01:06:32] gripped by what you're saying that you want me to lose myself in your narrative

[01:06:38] to the point that its themes make an impact on me?

[01:06:41] Then why are you putting these contrasting

[01:06:45] sounds up on the screen through this through these music choices that

[01:06:50] I understand like wanting to do something maybe a little jarring.

[01:06:56] But once again, it pulled me out of the movie more so than brought me into it.

[01:07:01] And it was something that I questioned all throughout because it doesn't happen

[01:07:05] just one time, it happens multiple times.

[01:07:07] I don't have an answer to these bizarre needle drops that they took me so much

[01:07:14] out of the movie and I can get that like a lot of times with music,

[01:07:18] there is supposed to be a contrast between what you're hearing and what

[01:07:22] you're seeing, but it was just so jarring for me that I could not really

[01:07:28] justify it enough in my mind for its existence.

[01:07:31] And that is just one of those things where I can kind of see what Garland was

[01:07:36] going for, but it did not work for me at all.

[01:07:39] Yeah, I mean, usually I don't react to needle drops,

[01:07:42] but I had three definite eye rolls through this one.

[01:07:45] I thought the sequence with the car and them feeling like they were being

[01:07:51] followed by somebody and it just turns out then to be friends of Joles who are

[01:07:55] driving recklessly and then they do this thing where he hops from one car into

[01:08:01] the other and in jest, he's like, oh, that looks like fun.

[01:08:04] Let me do it. Silly.

[01:08:06] Absolutely silly.

[01:08:07] Nonsense goal pointless.

[01:08:09] I truly thought to myself, this feels so out of place

[01:08:12] and I don't understand why anybody would be doing this under these circumstances.

[01:08:17] Why can't you just pull over the car?

[01:08:19] Like you aren't being chased by anybody.

[01:08:21] Why do you have to keep on driving?

[01:08:23] It just and then too, if the whole idea of keeping

[01:08:27] if trying to just keep on driving is so important because they got to get to

[01:08:30] Washington, D.C. before the Western forces do, why do they take that detour then

[01:08:36] to go watch that firefight the next morning?

[01:08:40] For what?

[01:08:42] You know, it's it's a complete detour from their mission and what they're

[01:08:47] trying to do.

[01:08:48] And I was cracking up when Joel was so upset that he's trying to tell Lee, oh,

[01:08:54] the Western forces are going to get there before us.

[01:08:56] We completely missed the story.

[01:08:57] Well, maybe you shouldn't have then taken that detour that following morning

[01:09:00] to go watch that fucking firefight, bro.

[01:09:03] You know, the reason why there is that trade off with the cars that don't

[01:09:07] slow down is because we needed to get Jesse into that car so that we could

[01:09:12] have that moment later on to build up that tension and to explain why

[01:09:16] she is separated for them when they stop.

[01:09:18] That that's why. Oh, I understand.

[01:09:20] That's why it's just not a convincing way to do it.

[01:09:25] No, it's not not at all. No.

[01:09:29] OK, as far as grades go,

[01:09:32] I think I'm going to be generous with this movie because I want to be very

[01:09:36] clear again that I do think that there might be some personal bias in this

[01:09:40] getting in the way here.

[01:09:42] I do think on a technical level, it's really well crafted.

[01:09:45] I do have issues with the writing.

[01:09:47] I do not believe that Alex Garland following men is all of a sudden a hack

[01:09:52] director, as some people have said.

[01:09:55] I understand not liking men.

[01:09:56] I understand not liking civil war.

[01:09:59] Devs also was done here, the television show that he did too.

[01:10:03] And I quite enjoyed that.

[01:10:05] I still find him to be a very interesting storyteller.

[01:10:09] And on a technical level, I'm always anticipating watching his movies.

[01:10:13] And people have said, oh, is this like his last film?

[01:10:16] No, he's kind of debunked that and said he's still going to direct.

[01:10:20] Just maybe not as frequently.

[01:10:22] But man, this didn't work for me as much as I was hoping it would.

[01:10:26] And that's a bummer.

[01:10:28] That is real bummer.

[01:10:29] I think there was a missed opportunity here.

[01:10:31] But at the same time, I see that it is working for a lot of people.

[01:10:36] So.

[01:10:38] I debated going with a five.

[01:10:41] I'm going to actually end up on the side of positive, but just barely.

[01:10:46] And give this a six out of ten.

[01:10:48] There's enough good stuff here for me to recommend it to someone where, listen,

[01:10:53] you might hate it, but I have seen a lot of people who also love it too.

[01:10:57] So I would give it a six out of ten.

[01:11:00] Maybe you'll love it.

[01:11:01] Maybe you'll fall in the middle.

[01:11:02] Maybe you'll absolutely despise it.

[01:11:04] I really don't know.

[01:11:05] But I do think that there is some good sequences.

[01:11:09] There's some good ideas here.

[01:11:11] It's just a messy movie.

[01:11:12] Tom, what about you?

[01:11:14] I think there's enough good things in this to be able for me to bring it up to a four.

[01:11:20] I think ultimately, though, I think Garland has

[01:11:22] forfeited his responsibility as an artist in the name of being apolitical.

[01:11:27] And some people think that that was brilliant, like let the audience

[01:11:31] do the work.

[01:11:32] I can see that perspective of people

[01:11:35] thinking that this was the right stance to take.

[01:11:38] Yeah.

[01:11:38] But we don't know.

[01:11:39] We don't know that he needs to provide a context.

[01:11:43] Context is very important here and that he completely fails to do that

[01:11:48] deliberately in order to be apolitical.

[01:11:52] And you can be apolitical, but provide

[01:11:55] the audience with enough information so that they can responsibly make up their

[01:11:59] own mind. And that's that's the problem here.

[01:12:02] I think is that as Josh said, we are lost.

[01:12:05] We don't have enough information to be able to weigh what side we come down on.

[01:12:12] That, I think at the script level is the big failure of it.

[01:12:16] So I'm at a four.

[01:12:18] I will say this, if this movie truly was a red states versus blue states

[01:12:24] political movie that really depicted real life horror that you would probably

[01:12:31] see from your apartment windows taking place on the streets in your neighborhood.

[01:12:36] I probably would have hated this movie more, but I would have respected it more.

[01:12:40] That's a good point.

[01:12:41] And I feel like I'm the opposite here where I enjoyed it more,

[01:12:46] but I don't have as much respect for it because I do feel like it is

[01:12:51] a bit of a cop out in a lot of areas where I think he just really wants to

[01:12:56] have his cake and eat it too with regards to presenting some of these ideas

[01:13:01] on such a bare surface like level that he is asking the audience to fill in the gaps.

[01:13:06] He is asking the audience to do to work.

[01:13:08] And that has its own benefits to it, too, because then you will have some people,

[01:13:13] like I said, who will emerge from this with a more positive experience than others do.

[01:13:18] And you do minimize the risk of having a segment of your audience

[01:13:23] completely turning on the film.

[01:13:26] And I do appreciate, too, that on some level this is not the movie that a lot of us

[01:13:31] thought it was going to be when we first saw the trailer for it.

[01:13:37] And I think what we got here, at least from its

[01:13:41] intention with journalism and showing these heroic figures was admirable

[01:13:49] and was something that I definitely did not get from the film's marketing.

[01:13:54] I enjoyed that element of it, but everything else about the conflict and

[01:13:59] how we ended up here, what exactly is going on and why and to who.

[01:14:07] Yeah, they're just I need I needed a little bit more.

[01:14:11] Josh, I am going to be a four out of ten for this as well.

[01:14:16] I did not hate it as much as I thought I would, but it had so little to say that

[01:14:22] I just could not find myself connecting with it on any meaningful level.

[01:14:27] So I can appreciate some craft.

[01:14:29] I can appreciate some performances.

[01:14:31] But as a piece of storytelling, I felt it was very, very hollow and not very good.

[01:14:38] So as far as any awards potential for this movie,

[01:14:43] I think this is going to be one of those cases where,

[01:14:47] quite honestly, this movie probably should be nominated for best sound.

[01:14:52] I think so.

[01:14:53] But because of the release date, the type of film it is, the reactions to it.

[01:15:00] I do not think it's going to ultimately get a nomination.

[01:15:04] It might show up at a guild or two, but I don't see it getting the final Oscar

[01:15:09] nomination. No, I think A24 is going to have other

[01:15:12] priorities.

[01:15:14] Yeah, I don't see this going very far.

[01:15:16] And that's the only place I could see any kind of potential.

[01:15:20] But I think once we get later into the year,

[01:15:23] yeah, I would be shocked if it even made the short list at the end of the day.

[01:15:28] Watch this, you're going to see Jesse

[01:15:30] Plemons get some random best supporting actor nod from one of those state

[01:15:36] critics groups, you know?

[01:15:38] And you know what?

[01:15:39] I imagine, too, there might be some critics groups

[01:15:41] small enough who maybe they love this movie and they happen to be those folks

[01:15:45] that are calling it a masterpiece that it does get a mention or two here of air.

[01:15:49] But yeah, let's be real.

[01:15:50] That's as far as this is going.

[01:15:52] Yeah. All right.

[01:15:53] Well, that'll do for our review of Civil War here on the next best picture

[01:15:57] podcast, Tom O'Brien.

[01:15:58] Tell everyone that's listening where they can find you on the internet.

[01:16:01] You can find me on Twitter at Thomas E. O'Brien.

[01:16:04] Josh Parham.

[01:16:05] You can find me on Twitter and Letterbox at J.R. Parham.

[01:16:10] And you can find me in next best picture.

[01:16:12] Thank you so much, everyone, for listening to the next best picture podcast.

[01:16:16] We are proud to be part of the Evergreen podcast network.

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