Ep 255- All We Imagine As Light

[00:00:15] Hi, this is Asim. This is Sujoy. This is Amritha. And you're listening to Khandaan, a Bollywood

[00:00:20] Podcast about the three main Khans of the Hindi film industry. Aamir, Salman, and Shahrukh.

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[00:00:41] and better content. Visit us at patreon.com slash Khandaan Podcast. Hi, and welcome to a new

[00:00:49] episode of Khandaan Podcast. My name is Asim Burney. And this week, we don't have an episode. You might

[00:00:55] know that we're preparing an 80s Dharmaka series, which is going to be launching in January. And we

[00:01:01] had a huge hangout on Sunday with me and Amritha going over the lists, the shortlist, which movies

[00:01:07] we're picking, which might we be picking. And that list is almost finalized. And we will be posting

[00:01:13] it on social. So if you want to see which movies we'll be covering, you know, follow us on Twitter

[00:01:19] or on TikTok. And there's going to be five movies that our Patreons can choose to be included in

[00:01:25] the series. So if you're not a Patreon and you want to add your vote, join Patreon from $1. The link is

[00:01:32] in the show notes. So this episode is our All We Imagine Is Light episode. Amritha got a chance to

[00:01:38] watch the movie and she has a little mini review for you guys. And then Yamini, Papu Charu on Twitter

[00:01:45] and Yaminit on Instagram went over and had a press screening and got a chance to speak with the

[00:01:53] director Payal Kapadia and with actress Kani Kasruti. So both of those interviews are in here. So you do get

[00:02:00] a little bit of an episode from us, although we're not all of us together. Check this out. Let us know

[00:02:05] what you think of the conversation. And I hope you guys enjoy it. And we'll be back with a new episode

[00:02:09] very soon.

[00:02:36] Hello, everybody. This is Amritha.

[00:02:38] So All We Imagine Is Light is now out in limited, very limited release and the boys haven't had a

[00:02:47] chance to watch it. But there's been such a lot of chatter around this project even before it got a

[00:02:53] mainstream release that I thought maybe I could share my thoughts about it. Please do stick around at the

[00:02:59] end to listen to an interview with the director Payal Kapadia conducted by friend of the pod,

[00:03:04] Papu Charu.

[00:03:06] Okay, so the very first thing you should know is that this is not a mainstream movie.

[00:03:12] This is very much a film festival movie. And I feel a lot of people got their wires crossed.

[00:03:19] Because when we were discussing the Oscar norms, this movie was pitted against Lapata Ladies,

[00:03:26] which is what passes for an art movie in India these days, which is to say it doesn't have big

[00:03:33] stars and is set in a village about 20 years ago, you know, a period piece. Oh my God.

[00:03:41] But Lapata Ladies is very much a linear piece of storytelling.

[00:03:47] And all we imagine as light is very much not that. There are three main characters in this film,

[00:03:58] all of them women. And there are a few men who weave in and out of the storyline. But it's very much an

[00:04:06] exploration of what it means to be a quote unquote, ordinary working woman in a city like Bombay.

[00:04:15] It has this unhurried gaze that likes to linger on frames in a way that is, frankly, it's disorienting

[00:04:25] in 2024 for an audience that is perhaps trained within an inch of its life on YouTube and Instagram.

[00:04:34] It demands your attention and your critical thinking in a way that can be uncomfortable.

[00:04:43] I wouldn't say that this is my cup of tea cinematically for various reasons that have nothing to do with the film

[00:04:51] and more to do with me and my relationship with cinema. But I love that I kept thinking of scenes

[00:04:57] and characters for days afterward in a very soft, gentle flashback kind of way.

[00:05:05] There is a scene, for instance, where Divya Prabha's character undresses in front of a mirror and Kani Kusruti's

[00:05:14] character averts her eyes. And in the moment at the theater, I rolled my eyes a little because it was

[00:05:21] such a classic film festival movie scene. But later I was thinking about what that scene told the viewer

[00:05:28] about the two characters and who they were and how they express themselves, not just to each other,

[00:05:35] but also to the world. I always complain that modern day Bollywood movies spoon feed their audiences

[00:05:43] nearly everything. In fact, it's gotten to a point where it's not even spoon feeding, it's straight up

[00:05:49] regurgitation. And all we imagine as light is the exact opposite of that. It tells you almost nothing

[00:05:58] and everything that it does tell you is oblique and clouded. So you're forced to search for meaning.

[00:06:07] This is almost interactive storytelling. I've also seen some criticism sent its way about poverty porn

[00:06:16] and so on. And I don't think that's valid. This is perhaps the kindest take I've seen in a long time

[00:06:22] about the lower middle class migrant population in Bombay and how they survive and the communities

[00:06:29] they forge with each other. Like any large migrant city, Bombay is ugly a lot of the time. And in that

[00:06:37] frenetic ugliness, there is a beauty that perhaps only appeals to the true blue urbanites such as myself.

[00:06:44] I mean, I love nature and everything, but give me a grimy subway because that's what I need to thrive

[00:06:50] more than some cow doing a poo in a field. I don't think this was a perfect film by any means, but

[00:06:58] I do think it's astonishing that something like this could come out of India in 2024.

[00:07:03] And it's such a throwback to the kind of art cinema I grew up on. Like this is a movie that could

[00:07:09] only have been made by someone who went to film school, you know, so should you watch this?

[00:07:16] I think you should. You might not like it or you might, you may love it, but in either case, you will

[00:07:23] walk out of the cinema having experienced something unique. And I think that is worth something.

[00:07:36] So hi, Kanye. I'm Yamini. I'm from the You Podcasting team. And one, like congratulations

[00:07:43] on the film. Like, I mean, and also there's two films of yours this year that are doing

[00:07:47] kind of the festin circuit, like all the way much aside and girls will be girls. So I just

[00:07:52] wanted to ask, like, how do you like, you know, when these roles come to you, like, how

[00:07:56] do you choose them? And how do you like approach each one of them? Like in general?

[00:08:01] Um, I mean, I mostly do auditions. That's how I get my part. Um, I generally go with a

[00:08:10] little neutral open mind because sometimes I need to talk to the director a couple of

[00:08:15] times to see how are they seeing this whole film and the character and everything to be

[00:08:21] able to know. Um, you know, like if I already go with some kind of my way of understanding

[00:08:26] of the character and everything, it can make me a little rigid about my preparation. And

[00:08:32] once I meet the director, then I'll have to unlearn a lot of things that I've prepared

[00:08:35] and then them again start. So I generally go with a little open and neutral, like, like

[00:08:39] I know nothing kind of attitude. And then I discuss with them and then I try to show a

[00:08:44] little bit how I think it is. But this is all, this is all, this luxury happens only if

[00:08:49] there is time for rehearsals. And both these directors, thankfully, were open to rehearsals

[00:08:54] all open to discussions and everything. And Pyle particularly rehearsed a lot. Shuchi didn't

[00:08:58] rehearse as much, but her power process was different. Like we have rehearsed some bit

[00:09:02] and some idea and prepared for the physicality and the internalization of the character a little

[00:09:08] bit, a day or two. And then once you go to the shoot, what Shuchi used to do is like,

[00:09:13] she would, um, rehearse the scene and then we kind of prepare the scene and choreograph it.

[00:09:18] Then we go get ready and come back. So she had a different way of shooting. So both Pyle and Shuchi

[00:09:25] had, um, ample of, you know, like, or like enormous amount of space and time for us to prepare.

[00:09:32] And they gave it differently those things. Hence, it was really helpful for me to prepare for it. But

[00:09:38] I don't have like a one way of looking at, okay, this is how I do and I will go. Uh, I mostly work

[00:09:43] whenever any director comes, I, I, I need a little time with them to understand all, but sometimes

[00:09:48] you're not that lucky. You're, you go to the set directly. So if I know that's the situation,

[00:09:53] I prepare something and go and sometimes in after two days, you know, this is not how he,

[00:09:57] they want it probably. So then, you know, then you have to unlearn it and do it differently. And

[00:10:03] that can cause some inconsistency in you, how you play. But yeah.

[00:10:06] Okay. Yeah. So I had the pleasure talking to Pyle Kapadia about this and also like, um,

[00:10:13] cause she was shooting in Malayalam, which is not like her language at all. So what, how was it like,

[00:10:19] first of all, like working with a director who's not fluent in Malayalam, how much of like your own

[00:10:24] inflections and sensibilities kind of came into the, like, how did that work?

[00:10:29] So I have worked with other directors also who made content in there, not their mother tongue,

[00:10:34] what they didn't speak. And, uh, but what was special about Pyle is by the time we reached, uh,

[00:10:42] for the pre-production of the film, she has thoroughly worked on the script with her assistant

[00:10:47] director, Robin. He has translated the film, but it was not just like he took, got the script and

[00:10:51] he just translated and gave it back to her. No. He and, uh, she would sit together and then he,

[00:10:57] she will ask for all the probability of words that's possible for one meaning. Like if,

[00:11:02] if you want to say what other is well, um, and like if something, some other words are there,

[00:11:06] like all kinds of words, um, like in, in, in, in south of Kerala, there are different words,

[00:11:13] so north of Kerala, like, as you know, like so many different words for the same meaning.

[00:11:16] So she will ask for all kinds of words and all kinds of phrases.

[00:11:19] And Robin will kind of tell her all the different words with different permutations and combinations,

[00:11:25] and she will listen to each. And then what sounded right for the tonality of the film,

[00:11:30] she would choose that. And that's how they wrote the whole Malayalam script. Like,

[00:11:34] it's an incredible job that they've already done for a year. They, she worked on the script,

[00:11:39] sitting with him on a day-to-day basis. And, um, she really knew what, what was it sounding in

[00:11:45] that one. And she'll be like, oh, this word we chose because that was, huh? Okay. Like,

[00:11:49] so this is already there, which is already incredible. So when we came, all the actors came,

[00:11:55] we were like, wow, it's so beautifully written. Even then you don't see, how was,

[00:11:58] how did that happen? And then, then once we, the actor characters were like actors were fixed for

[00:12:04] the characters, we were like, okay, maybe these characters, this one is formerly from this part of

[00:12:07] Kerala, this part of Kerala. And then, when we'd finalize that, um, Prabha, we, we'd set out

[00:12:13] probably from Colum or something. And then I had this friend from Colum, she helped me to rearrange

[00:12:19] the lines slightly. And I will tell Payal and Robin the new tiny differences in lines. And

[00:12:24] Robin will be like, I think, Kani, maybe you ought to go with this and that. And then I'll ask my

[00:12:27] friend and then, then he, she will, he will approve first. And then we will make listen,

[00:12:32] pile the differences and then she will approve. So that was a long process. Like, but she's really

[00:12:37] worked like a lot to achieve what it is now. And I, I think, I don't think even my alum director has

[00:12:43] worked so much like that. So, um, I won't say my, our actors contribution is a lot in terms of the

[00:12:51] dialogues, but we have been, the moment we fixed the background of the characters and where they are

[00:12:56] coming from, the dialect and everything, we changed a bit with the approval of file where we have given

[00:13:01] all the combinations and what's the difference. And sometimes if it didn't match with the tonality,

[00:13:05] we took the freedom to go back to what finally, ultimately she wrote originally. So that because

[00:13:11] at the end of the day, she really wanted to keep that consistency of tonality and that negotiation

[00:13:16] was happening through Robin and Pyle like that. So that's what happened. Yeah. So, uh, Prabha's character,

[00:13:21] I think that was the one that kind of, because the thing about this film is also like, every time

[00:13:26] I think it's going to like, is it going to get like a bit more intense? I'm going to be more worried. But then

[00:13:31] like, I think the way that she dealt with it, I was like, oh, it's just, it's just, it's just a part of like

[00:13:36] people's slides. But Prabha's character is definitely the one I think I felt a little bit more pained by

[00:13:41] because I'm like, I get that, uh, no, that is a thing, right? We're all like hungry for love and

[00:13:45] we want to be able to, uh, have that constantly. And, uh, when you get to the ending, when you get

[00:13:53] to the reconciliation, like, I feel like the ending just had this, this magical quality that kind of

[00:13:58] leaves us as, as a viewer, it's like, you're really not sure between like the lines between like

[00:14:04] reality and imagination, where really blurred. And you know, how did, how do you, how did you

[00:14:10] interpret it as like the relation to the themes of like, you know, life, loss and acceptance?

[00:14:16] Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. For me, like the very end of the scene, it, it, it was not like dreamlike for

[00:14:25] me, but that between where, where kind of Prabha transit through that or move forward. And that scene was,

[00:14:33] we don't know whether it happened or not, or it's just a conversation she had in her mind,

[00:14:37] or was it a dream or like, or did she have a conversation with someone or she, did she write

[00:14:41] this in the diary or did she actually this happen and she had a closure? Was that just a strange

[00:14:45] land where she thought it's her husband? Like, or was it actually, actually her husband she envisioned

[00:14:49] and then had a conversation on her and then she moved on, like whatever. But after that,

[00:14:54] the very end of the scene where Anu and Prabha talks and then they come and sit and then

[00:14:57] where Anu brings her boyfriend and they'll sit. For me, that's the most rooted scene of the film,

[00:15:02] where that inclusivity and that acceptance of each other. And you know, it's a, it's a starting

[00:15:08] point of, uh, or one turning point of life where they are all are like going to open up and you know,

[00:15:16] like, uh, changes are going to happen in a better way just because they're accepting of what the

[00:15:22] situation is and, uh, um, uh, and ready for listening to the other and, you know, also accepting them,

[00:15:29] something like that. For me, that's how that scene was. But previous scene, like you said,

[00:15:33] was dreamlike and with, did it happen or not? And the thing is the pun that she did in, I don't know

[00:15:37] if you speak Malayalam, or the, the, the Malayalam title is, I don't know if you read, it's called

[00:15:42] Praphaya Nirachadalla means, um, it's not exactly all we imagine is like, it means whatever

[00:15:49] Prabha has made up in her mind, whatever Prabha has imagined, whether all this happened or not,

[00:15:55] we don't know. Yeah. Something like that. And which is a pun because in, in Malayalam title,

[00:16:00] it can also mean all the images in a slide. Prabha Nirachadalla. It also means because my

[00:16:04] character's name is Prabha, it's all what she thought. Uh, so that's kind of the film is like

[00:16:10] coming back to your perspective. Yeah. Uh, also like a part of it that, um, because this film has been

[00:16:15] like, you know, uh, like doing incredibly well and like, you know, everyone around the world,

[00:16:21] like, and especially because you're bringing up like with Malayalam, like all these nuances and all

[00:16:26] of that. So, uh, I just want to ask, even as an actor, like how, sorry, how has it been just kind

[00:16:34] of seeing how people interpret this film? Like, because, um, it's so universal, right? Like to in the,

[00:16:41] it's a migrant story, something that a lot of people can really do, but at the same time, like with the

[00:16:46] language, there's so many nuances, a lot of people probably missing out. Probably missing out. I mean,

[00:16:50] that can't really help. I mean, even when we watch films from other parts of the world,

[00:16:54] we might be missing a lot of nuances. Um, no, so far, I've been for a, wherever I've

[00:16:59] went and people's feedback that I would receive directly or messages, everything,

[00:17:04] people are really getting the film. I've never, I hardly seen someone not getting what it is.

[00:17:09] Yeah. So I think it's translating quite well in that way. Of course the nuances,

[00:17:13] I mean, I'm sure I have with some probably what Bile meant. That can always happen, right?

[00:17:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:21] Yeah. Of course. And, um, yeah, again, like bringing up, uh, not just Paya and Kapadi,

[00:17:26] but also like with Chaya Kadam and, uh, the way well, but like, how was, how, how was the process

[00:17:32] like with collaborating with these women, especially like cause Chaya Kadam like one, I mean, all of her,

[00:17:36] like, yeah, cause I spent so many years of my life in Maharashtra. Oh my God.

[00:17:40] Yeah. I've seen so much of her film before and this year, especially like,

[00:17:43] yeah, she's doing it. Like Hindi cinema. Yeah.

[00:17:46] This and it has been her year. Like, yes, surely. Like she was in, she's in La Patalee.

[00:17:51] La Patalee. She's in Sister Midnight as well.

[00:17:53] Yeah. She's in that. She was in even like, like, no, I wouldn't say mass, but more mainstream.

[00:17:58] She's in Madgao Express and her character is like the one I came out like, what a brilliant

[00:18:03] character. And what a brilliant. And Chaya Jay is like really, like,

[00:18:06] I also been, I haven't watched all of her work, but whatever work I have seen, I've been always

[00:18:10] looking up to. So when I, when I got casted in this film, I asked Pail who's playing Parvadoo.

[00:18:15] It's one of my favorite character. It's something that I don't, I don't think I can pull off also.

[00:18:19] Some characters you know, it's going to be the most difficult. It shouldn't fall into the stereotypical

[00:18:23] way of interpreting that character, but it should also be fun and, and same being very true and rooted.

[00:18:29] And I was like, I may interpret it so fakely. I wouldn't be able to pull this off. And then she said,

[00:18:34] I was like, wow, I love this actress. I was so much looking forward to rehearse with her. And

[00:18:40] from day one, I mean, I did not know her before personally, but from day one, she's like, she

[00:18:45] gelled with all of us so fastly and she's such a sport, uh, like ready for anything, anytime. And,

[00:18:53] like a really mazak kind of person and an amazing person, amazing person. Like I really,

[00:18:58] truly enjoy, I mean, we all enjoy it. Like even Nibia also enjoys her company so much. And

[00:19:03] uh, to learn from her for my main thing, like as an actor, I am always amazed by how she like,

[00:19:08] there are some lines sometimes file and I'm like, but this kind of, this sounds so dramatic. I don't

[00:19:13] know if it's right. I mean, uh, dramatic is not the right way, but like, maybe it doesn't,

[00:19:16] it won't fold up nicely. And then Chaiji Larai, it's her line. Okay. She just, she just says,

[00:19:21] and I'm like, wow, it sounds so right. Like any line that you give it to her, she'll just make it like,

[00:19:26] that's like a easy cakewalk. Like, like she's really good at that. Like for me, I have to work

[00:19:31] a lot of my lines for it to fall at least rightly. Because some lines, if I don't say those words in

[00:19:37] my life personally, it takes some time for me to make it my own. And Chaiji is such an, like, you know,

[00:19:42] like anything that you give it to her instantly, she will make it on her own. That's one really plus

[00:19:48] point that she has, I believe. And she's contributed really amazing lines to this film.

[00:19:53] The Marathi lines that, um, some of the, it's not Marathi's in Oregon, Payal's language, but

[00:20:01] the Ekda Shiv, Sadashiv and all this Chaiji's contribution, like Payal had idea, but exactly

[00:20:06] what to say was, Chaiji brought all that. So that's how I really looked up to her. For me,

[00:20:11] Divya was someone who was a friend of mine from some time. We have worked in a soap opera together.

[00:20:16] We have done a play together. So I've been seeing her, uh, craft of acting for some time. And then for me,

[00:20:23] when I went to watch, not while we worked, because we knew each other. So I knew her.

[00:20:28] Then when I watched the film premiere at Cannes, I thought, oh my God, she was my most favorite actor.

[00:20:36] She has risen above, like she has outdone herself. Like I was like, Divya, I can't believe I could not

[00:20:42] see you. And I know you so well. And I didn't realize that you are doing it. Now when I watch the film,

[00:20:47] you've pulled off something that I'm so proud of. And I can see the, the long way that she's came from,

[00:20:54] where, from where she is to now and how much she's improved in her craft. And it's incredible what

[00:20:59] she's done in the film. So for me, that was my experience for Divya. I was like, oh, I was blown away

[00:21:04] by her performance, really. Yeah. Maybe that is, uh, yeah, that, because she, like, I think,

[00:21:10] one, everyone was so brilliant. Yeah. I was just, I was just spellbound by the way. Yeah. But for me

[00:21:14] to also see the, you know, the journey, like when you know you're the co-actors and we see the

[00:21:20] journey, that's something else. So like, you really feel proud of it. Like, wow, like this person was

[00:21:24] this and then now they're here. Like, and you see all the steps and how much she's come. That's really

[00:21:29] amazing. Yeah. So, of course. And, uh, so I just want to ask, like, for me,

[00:21:33] I think a big part of this film, like what kind of felt very personal to me is just like the theme

[00:21:38] of like found family, because again, that is such an, that's such a migrant scene. That's such a

[00:21:43] thing. Like, especially if you're someone who's around us at a place, it's not your, yeah. Um,

[00:21:48] so what was like your, I feel like your major personal connection to the film? Because for me,

[00:21:53] this is one thing that I came out like, not just found family, but how beautiful it's like shown

[00:21:59] with the way. And I feel like, uh, Prabha's characters is really kind of the thread between like

[00:22:03] with Babadi and uh, yeah, Anu. So yeah. Yeah. For me personally, I have, I have also been in cities

[00:22:10] in places where I don't speak the language and I don't know how to communicate. I don't have friends.

[00:22:15] I don't have family. I don't have the money and I don't know how I'll survive. And such

[00:22:19] female friendships or friendships have emerged of such places where none was there, nothing was there to

[00:22:25] help. So in that aspect, I personally relate with the story a lot, but of course, I'm still so

[00:22:31] privileged. I haven't been in the shoes of any of these characters. So I can't really say it in that

[00:22:36] aspect, but I have been at the same time in a city where I was a student and I had no money and no

[00:22:42] friend and no language. I spoke not even a word. And I am probably identified with Dr. Manoj Mast.

[00:22:47] Let's feel like, I don't know how to survive and it probably will go back, you know? So, uh, that is

[00:22:53] my personal connection, probably. But, um, I think, yeah, like the one thing that probably can

[00:22:58] really make us resilient and come out of it is like these people surrounded by you and

[00:23:03] you somehow discover them. And then you make that new family or the kinship that meant to be yours

[00:23:09] and to discover yourself in a true spirit and then allow yourself to be yourself, you know?

[00:23:16] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's how I see it. Yeah. So, of course. Um, and also like, uh,

[00:23:23] like, I mean, again, like with the cultural context or whatever, and we look at like,

[00:23:26] uh, there is this undertone of like systemic oppression that you do see very much. And, uh,

[00:23:32] like you had said, like with privilege and everything, these are not, these are things that we know so

[00:23:36] much more in theory than in practice. But, uh, I feel like, how do you think this film reflects,

[00:23:42] like these kind of contemporary issues in society and, and probably why it's one of the reasons why

[00:23:49] so many people can relate to it. Yeah. I mean, I do think, I mean, she,

[00:23:53] Pile is very subtle in that way, like, which I like, I mean, in everything, uh, like in her,

[00:23:58] some of her lines or in the background and you see the reflections of some, sometimes in some shots,

[00:24:04] um, it's designed in a way that this whole gigantic system is kind of, uh, very easily,

[00:24:11] you know, closing their eyes to the problems that they can avoid, but then not like, like the

[00:24:17] particularly power worthy story. Um, Pile was saying that this, a lot of people in Bombay,

[00:24:23] that actual factor when it was shut, people were just sent, they were never met with what they would,

[00:24:27] they have demanded. And, you know, of course, change is inevitable to, to have certain kind

[00:24:33] of development, you need to kind of abandon things, but then you need to also provide for people

[00:24:37] who's life has been suddenly, you know, stopped because of that and they don't know how to live. So,

[00:24:42] uh, I mean, the film is resonating of all that, but in, in Pile's language, which is even the

[00:24:47] characters and everything, I think it's also very subtle and poetic. It's not, it's not, um, like, um,

[00:24:54] political pamphlet that's out there in the film. It's more of a subtle way where you see it,

[00:25:00] you know, like, it's like she's just gently turning her head into that direction kind of thing.

[00:25:04] But yeah, it's very much there. I mean, it's a political film as well for me.

[00:25:08] Anyway, I think this is her, yeah, time, my time is up, but thank you. Thank you so much for like,

[00:25:14] this, um, and yeah, it was just wonderful to meet you and I'm so glad that I got to see the film.

[00:25:19] Yeah, I'm happy. Yeah. Thank you. So hi, Pile. I'm Yamini from the podcasting team. Um, yeah,

[00:25:30] so right. Uh, also like congratulations on the, uh, Grand Prix. Like how has it been like taking your

[00:25:38] film, you know, to all these festivals right now and now you're in London, like how has the experience

[00:25:42] been? Yeah, firstly, thank you for having me. And, uh, it's really nice to be here and to talk about

[00:25:48] the film and I'm excited about the release here as well, uh, in the UK. Um, and it's been, um,

[00:25:56] really fulfilling experience because I think as independent filmmakers, one of the things that

[00:26:01] you really want is that your film gets shown and to get shown in a cinema, which is, uh, really nice.

[00:26:08] And so I think I'm being just so, so it's been such a great privilege.

[00:26:13] And, and how has it been like just taking the film to all of these like different countries and places

[00:26:19] and all of that? And it's, it's interesting for me to see how other people respond to the film who,

[00:26:26] um, don't understand entirely our cultural context. And it's just interesting to see what they find,

[00:26:32] um, uh, in it for themselves. And that's always something I'm curious to know and, um, understand also.

[00:26:41] So, so one, like, cause I, I'd gotten a screening of the film yesterday and there are just like,

[00:26:46] there's so many layers to this. I mean, and it's hard. It's very much like a migrant story. And

[00:26:50] one thread that particularly like released throughout to me again, as someone who's moved around so much

[00:26:55] is the idea of the chosen family, especially with all, um, all of these women and especially in a

[00:27:01] place like Bombay, like, you know, having lived in Bombay, you see the hustle and bustle of that city.

[00:27:06] Yeah. And it's just so intense and, and there's so much trappings to like Bombay as well.

[00:27:12] And like, there is also this political tone of like systemic oppression. So I just want to ask,

[00:27:19] like, where did this story Germany from, you know, where did you get this idea? Like, what was

[00:27:23] the main narrative? And then all these other like narratives, where did they come out of?

[00:27:28] I was, uh, I'm from Mumbai, but it's not a city. I always, um, like I lived outside a lot. And I

[00:27:36] think when you leave a place and come back, you see it's changed, uh, very, uh, obviously. And for me,

[00:27:43] it's a city that's always in a state of change. It's one of the biggest characteristics of the city,

[00:27:49] but it's also that change can be both good, but also quite often quite brutal to, uh, a lot of people

[00:27:56] who live there. And very easily, um, there is a kind of violent gentrification that happens in Mumbai

[00:28:05] of people and displacement within the city, which is unfortunately become like the norm.

[00:28:12] And we accept that this is the way it is. And this is something that I don't think was the

[00:28:17] kind of ethos of the city, maybe 20 years ago. And I feel more and more that our attitudes have become

[00:28:23] that, oh, this is how it is, but why should it be like this? And this is something that I was very

[00:28:28] concerned and bothered by. Um, because it's a city that I think has been made by people who've come from

[00:28:37] everywhere. And it's important that there is a more inclusive attitude that we have. And I think that

[00:28:45] was kind of the starting point of the film, but also about women who come to work in Mumbai,

[00:28:51] because like I said, even though I lived, I'm from there, I lived outside a lot. And when I'm,

[00:28:57] I didn't have any friends from Mumbai, uh, from like say my childhood or anything, because I didn't

[00:29:02] have any school friends like that. So most of my friends are the ones who were from FTI at the school,

[00:29:09] the film school I studied in, and they moved to Mumbai and they have a totally different view of the city.

[00:29:14] So I started seeing it through their eyes and, um, you know, through the experience of coming and

[00:29:19] living there and settling there. And what does it feel like? And what does it mean? So all these

[00:29:23] things kind of, um, were all the masala to make this film. No, honestly, I did, I did feel that

[00:29:31] because I also did feel like this was an ode to Mumbai. Like, you know, I feel like you capture

[00:29:35] the harsh realities, which I feel like are often romanticized in a lot of other films, because

[00:29:41] you can romanticize. But I see, I see, can you look at Mumbai from both sides, you can see it as a very

[00:29:45] romantic city. There's so much, there's so much heart in the city, but at the same time, like, as you

[00:29:50] said, like London is as well. It's a city that is built of migrants. It's not a city that would thrive

[00:29:55] if it weren't for the migrants. And moreover, like the struggle to survive and the loneliness that we

[00:30:01] feel as migrants in the city, and which I really loved specifically through the doctors can have feel

[00:30:07] I felt like, because the women, I feel like ended up somehow at least like integrating with the city much

[00:30:12] better with him. It was so difficult. And you see the pain when he talks about it. So did you think

[00:30:19] of this as like a Mumbai story more or like a story of migrants in a big city?

[00:30:24] I feel that both are connected, because you can't talk, I feel you can't talk about Mumbai without the

[00:30:30] people who come to live there and make it home. And so it was, it was linked.

[00:30:38] But the element of the flux was important to me, because I feel that it is really a city that is

[00:30:47] in constant change and constant flux. And even the shape on the map of the city is changing at the

[00:30:53] moment, because, you know, land is being reclaimed. And the very origin of Mumbai was from seven islands

[00:30:59] that were reclaimed from the sea by the British East India Company. So the entire, like the geography of

[00:31:07] the city has been in constant change. So that's how I see the city as something that is in a state of flux.

[00:31:15] So, I mean, because I had talked about like how your journey has been with the film so far, but then

[00:31:20] like, you know, from like the conception to the writing, to now seeing it like being locally distributed,

[00:31:25] like, is there any like specific goal or milestone that you'd really like the film to reach?

[00:31:32] Oh, I'm already very happy with how the film is done. And it was a film that I worked on for many years.

[00:31:39] It took, it was five years that I worked on this film. So, you know, when you're working on something,

[00:31:46] you don't think that I wanted to go for this festival or I wanted to go for that.

[00:31:49] We just hope that people will watch it. And whatever way you can to make people watch it,

[00:31:55] whether it's winning at a festival or being selected at a festival, it's all like adding to that gold.

[00:32:01] And I think as filmmakers, that's all we can hope for.

[00:32:04] Yeah. And that's wonderful. Yeah. So one thing that I really like, that I constantly kept noticing,

[00:32:11] especially in the film, because even when the introduction happens, right, you have like people

[00:32:13] speaking in different languages. I just want to ask why Malayalam? Like I know, I know it's a story

[00:32:20] of nurses and I don't, is Malayalam like your first language or whatever. So I just want to ask why

[00:32:26] in Malayalam like specifically? I don't know. It was a crazy idea that I got five years ago.

[00:32:31] But I was like, when I started writing the script, I was spending a lot of time in hospitals due to

[00:32:37] personal reasons. And I made friends with some nurses who were there. And a lot of the stories

[00:32:45] I got from them, and they happened to be Malayali. So I felt that it would make sense to

[00:32:49] meet the film in Malayalam also and see how it goes. Because I think some of the questions and

[00:32:56] things I wanted to deal with in the film, whether it comes to language as a form of alienation,

[00:33:01] but also a form of privacy, and all these other questions worked well with the characters.

[00:33:07] And there is a kind of independence to Malayali women. And there is a kind of moving to other

[00:33:12] places attitude that is there very much part of the culture. So I was so then and also after I

[00:33:19] started writing the script, I was I met a lot of people from the Malayali film industry who were

[00:33:25] really supportive of, you know, this random person coming there to make a film and because I had to

[00:33:32] meet a lot of actors and there was a kind of generosity of spirit. And I've always been inspired by

[00:33:37] the work happening in the Kerala film industry. So they are great actors also. So I was I

[00:33:44] all kind of made sense suddenly.

[00:33:47] No, but now that you you bring up actors like casting, like, for one, the casting of this film

[00:33:53] incredible. And I would be remiss if I didn't bring up like Chaya Kadam, who's been having a

[00:33:58] fantastic year. I personally think this is 2024 is her year.

[00:34:02] They completely agree.

[00:34:03] Like literally with like, with Lapata ladies with with all you much as light and even in like

[00:34:08] Madgaon expresses like Kanchan Komri like, like, she's just had an amazing year. So how is the

[00:34:15] how's the casting process of like just getting these women?

[00:34:20] With when I started casting, I had this completely ridiculous idea that I'm going to be able to to cast

[00:34:28] a woman like Parvati from Mumbai, who was actually, you know, living and working there, which just

[00:34:34] reflects on my complete ignorance and privilege, because they were like, sorry, we are not going to

[00:34:40] stop our job and do your movie because are you going to think about employment afterwards? And I was like,

[00:34:46] oh, shit. Yes, this is. Oh, no, this is ridiculous for me to think this. And then I had actually I was

[00:34:55] big admirer of Chaya. I had seen her in Fandry like 10 years ago when I was a student at FDI. And I was

[00:35:04] completely taken by her performance because it was so powerful in that movie. But I didn't think that

[00:35:10] she would like she's such a veteran actress and me, my first film, and I narrated the story to her. And I think

[00:35:17] she connected to the character of Parvati because even Chaya and Parvati are both from the same region in the

[00:35:24] Kunkan. And like, her village is not very far from very short Parvati's house. So I think she connected a lot to

[00:35:31] the story and to the dialect and language and the kind of woman Parvati is who's super strong on her own. So all those things,

[00:35:39] I think she connected to and I felt were really right to cast her as this character because of all the same

[00:35:48] reasons. So that's how we started working together on this film. And with Anu and Prabha, who are played

[00:35:57] by Divya Prabha and Kani Kusruti. They're just really great actors. I think because I think in the

[00:36:07] Malayalam film industry, they do a range of work also like Divya does mainstream films, but she also

[00:36:13] does a film like Aripu, The Declaration, which was in Lokarno two years ago. And in that she's like a very

[00:36:20] serious and severe character. And in this she's like this very playful person as Anu. So I was always

[00:36:28] interested in the kind of work they were doing and I always found them to be versatile actors.

[00:36:34] And then I approached them. And for me, one thing that was important was people who are willing to

[00:36:40] give time to the film and also agree with some of the themes in the film. And fortunately, I found

[00:36:47] people like this and we formed a really nice friendship, all of us. So for a director, I think

[00:36:53] that's the greatest privilege.

[00:36:54] Oh, that's, that's so wonderful. Like, and you had brought up the location. That was one thing I

[00:36:59] wanted to ask, like, where was the entire, the location where like when we go to Parathis,

[00:37:06] the village, like the, the caves, the area, like, I mean, I figured it was probably like

[00:37:11] Konkang, but where, how did you do the location scouting for that?

[00:37:15] I, it was in the Konkang, it's in the Ratnagiri district. It's a town called Ganesh Gule. It's close

[00:37:22] to Ganpati Phule. So there is a strong connection between this region and Mumbai because all through

[00:37:30] the 20th century, a lot of people moved to work in Mumbai from this region, especially in the cotton

[00:37:36] mills. So there is a long history of this movement between the two spaces. And I wanted to acknowledge

[00:37:43] that connection between Ratnagiri and Mumbai. So it was important for me that Parvati, whose husband

[00:37:49] worked in the mills, was originally from Ratnagiri, which is why I chose this region. And thankfully,

[00:37:55] I had a location scout, great man called Kishore Sawant, who's both from Mumbai and Ratnagiri.

[00:38:03] So he was instrumental in like exploring the entire region and really kind of specifically finding this

[00:38:11] location and the cave and, you know, really, he's like an artist. And it's rare to find somebody like

[00:38:20] that.

[00:38:21] No, but I also like to tell you a little bit more on locations because like a lot of, especially the

[00:38:28] first couple of bits of like, when you see like Mumbai, it kind of feels a little bit like a

[00:38:35] documentary and the way it's shot, because I feel like, you know, the scenes with like

[00:38:40] Anu and Shiaz when they're walking through like Khaogali and even when they're just like, you know,

[00:38:44] walking and the trains and in the rain with the Ganpati and everything like, like how did you manage

[00:38:50] to do that of the Mumbai chaos and the monsoon like on top of that like HG4?

[00:38:57] I like to shoot a lot like nonfiction. So a lot of those scenes, we just shot them with

[00:39:04] a small DSLR camera like we were making a documentary film. Because I feel there's no other way really

[00:39:10] to shoot Mumbai authentically, unless you have like a huge budget and you can get a lot of

[00:39:15] people and great, you know, to recreate it. But it's such an interesting city to shoot. And

[00:39:22] it's also what I like to do. So fortunately, the actors also like when they were walking around

[00:39:28] Muhammad Ali Road, they were quite open to just being the characters without having, you know,

[00:39:35] too much direction, because they really internalize the characters well. So we could just,

[00:39:41] they were just walking around as Anu and Shiaz. And we were shooting as if we were making like some

[00:39:46] tourist videos. Yeah, those bits just because of the memory like when I was in Mumbai and like,

[00:39:53] um, and also I just wanted to ask like, because, because it's such a like women, like it is such

[00:39:59] a women's story, like, and as migrant women, especially like, did you like, you know, delve

[00:40:06] into any like specific filmmakers or any like influences? Like were there any women who sort of like,

[00:40:11] um, served as inspirations who make these kinds of films for you?

[00:40:17] Ah, who make these kind of films? Yeah. Um, I'm inspired by a lot of filmmakers from around the world.

[00:40:25] Um, and like Agnes Vardav and Ali Cherovaka, Claire Denny and Naomi Kawaze are just a few from

[00:40:38] who come on top of my head. Um, Chantal Akravine, because I know they're going to have a retrospective

[00:40:47] and I'll be in my. Um, yeah, also finally, like with the momentum now that like,

[00:40:55] only imagine a side has been having, um, what changes do you, but hope it would bring to

[00:41:01] how we see independent film in India, just how it works in India? Like, because I, I mean,

[00:41:09] obviously I have known about you having studied film in India and, um, it's been a long road

[00:41:14] to where you are now. And I, as like, what are your hopes of what like your film will do for,

[00:41:20] you know, a newer generational group of women who are trying to make independent cinema?

[00:41:25] I think that I am actually a product of change that is already happening. And I'm one of those

[00:41:31] many filmmakers because this year we had so many filmmakers from India in Cannes, which

[00:41:36] is a rare moment for us. And there were filmmakers who were women also, or at least themes that

[00:41:42] were to do with women. So I think that there is a change that's happening and I, I have benefited

[00:41:47] from this change. So I think, I hope that it goes, um, longer and wider and it's, uh, uh,

[00:41:55] different directors from different, um, backgrounds get the opportunity to make films. Um,

[00:42:01] um, and if that, um, they also get shown around. That's for me, one of the most important things.

[00:42:08] Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:42:10] Thank you very much.

[00:42:16] Thank you.

[00:42:17] Thank you.

[00:42:17] Thank you.

[00:42:19] Thank you.

[00:42:20] Thank you.