Kastur: In Gandhi’s Shadow, His Guiding Light – Part 5

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this very special All-Indians Matter in-depth series, Kastur. In Gandhis Shadow, His Guiding Light, On Kasturba, The Wife of the Mahatma. I am Ashram Engineer. With Satya Grahar having been vindicated in South Africa, Gandhi felt free to return

[00:00:27] to India and fulfill his promise to Gopal Krishna Gokhale to become part of the freedom struggle. By his side, as always was Kasturba. In part 5 of the series, we will talk about that with Tushar Gandhi, great grandson of the

[00:00:41] Mahatma, an author, a peace activist and someone who is striving to keep Gandhi relevant in today's India. Tushar is also writing a book on Kasturba called Kasturni Diary. Welcome Tushar. Thank you, Ashram.

[00:00:53] So Tushar, the Gandhi set sail for India in July 1914 but a lot has changed on the family front. All of Gandhi's brothers have died. Kasturba's brother Khushaldas Kapadia, his wife and daughter have also died. So she is obviously in a state of tremendous mental turmoil.

[00:01:10] Now at this point before returning to India, they stop in London. What happens there? I want you to talk about this through the lens of this woman who has lost a lot of family members and who has obviously been through a lot as you described before coming here.

[00:01:27] Yes, Bahu is returning to India finally after a long stint in South Africa. It's not as eager to come back to India because apart from Bahu's sister and Bah's brother, there's nobody else left in the family. They've all died.

[00:01:49] Khushaldas and his wife and daughter have died to a mysterious ailment in a matter of one week. And Bah has had to endure that grief in a distant land. It's just very disconnected bits of news that have come to her while her life also

[00:02:12] is in turmoil, in the final turmoil of the Satyagra in South Africa and move back to India and things. And then they leave from Cape Town. This time they leave from Cape Town because the objective is to go to England,

[00:02:30] network with the Indians in England and to lobby with the British parliamentarians and others for the South African cause and to gauge the waters about the India they are returning to. So they arrive in England and as they arrive in England, war clouds are gathering.

[00:02:54] A war in Europe is very imminent and it's being talked of as the war to end all wars. And so nobody knows what's going to happen. There's uncertainty. And so as usual, Bapu decides to become do his thing as a volunteer, a loyal citizen of

[00:03:19] the colony to the Empire. And he immediately volunteers to raise a first aid call for the battlefront. And he assembles Indians to volunteer for that. By and him, they undergo training as first responders on the battlefield to provide first aid and evacuation.

[00:03:43] And the rest of the contingent, they also undergo military training because anybody deployed on the battlefront must have the rudimentary military training. That is when by and Bapu both succumb in their health and they are both confined to their home, but they don't that will help doesn't improve.

[00:04:06] And a situation arises where the rest of the volunteers who are training and the British officers realize the racial attitude of the British officers and refuse to cooperate with them because they said no, when Gandhi by is there,

[00:04:23] he manages these people better when we are on our own. These people don't bother. And there's a rebellion happening, but just then the war breaks out and suddenly their camp turns from a training camp into a service camp and wounded start arriving.

[00:04:42] And so the trouble is forgotten and everybody starts caring for the wounded. But finally the doctors advised by and Bapu winter is approaching. They advise them, you said, you need to leave from here. Your health is not going to improve. And there's an uncertainty with war being declared.

[00:05:03] How long will travel between England and India be possible is doubtful. So the Gandhi couple board a ship and set sail for India and got the and Gandhi arrives in India to great interest because here's this

[00:05:19] guy was a hero of South Africa and there's a lot of potential for him to be the leader of the freedom struggle in India. He immediately starts on this frantic crisscrossing of the country and in

[00:05:32] an effort to understand in India that he hasn't lived in for very long actually. So eventually they make amdabad their home. I'm referring here to the sabbarmati ashram, which is so much in the news nowadays also, but we'll talk about it later.

[00:05:45] I want to specifically refer to an incident here which had bar at the center of it. When the ashram came up a short while after that it took in its first untouchable family and this is a this was followed by an open revolt of sorts in a

[00:06:02] social boycott and then finally subtle resistance to the family from the ashram residence. The lady of the family was not allowed to participate in kitchen chores. And the daughter ventured into the kitchen. It was purified every time she went in even Kasurba was found to be

[00:06:19] part of these practices. When Gandhi found out he said those who cannot abide by the rules of the ashram should leave and that includes Kasurba. What happened after that? And how did she come to accept the untouchable family as her own?

[00:06:36] This happened in Kochirap, the first ashram that Bapu and Ba established in amdabad which was within the city limits part of the community of the locality in amdabad. And after establishing the ashram with 25 inmates, children and grownups,

[00:06:55] Bapu invited a Harijan family into the ashram and said that you become part of it and we will live together on equality basis. This was unacceptable to the orthodox society of the city, the locality and ashram. Many of the orthodox participants in the ashram were not enlightened

[00:07:22] enough to accept an untouchable family in their midst. So there was a revolt, the access to the community well was denied. A boycott was put in place of the ashram and several people in the ashram revolted also and Bapu told them you don't want to live with us.

[00:07:43] Leave. I don't force you to live with me. If you want to live, you will have to live the way we live with everybody. Those who left left but those who stayed still practiced their prejudices. You must remember Ashraf, these were all people who grew up

[00:08:01] with those prejudices normalized in their life. They did not know anything other than that those practices for them. It would be very difficult to accept this new just ethical way of life actually living it. It would be great to talk about it would be great to write

[00:08:23] about but actually doing it would be something else and so for them it was terrible and for so a lot of time when Duda Bayi and his family would interact with people. The purifying rituals would take place. The kitchen would be washed their utensils would be left

[00:08:45] unwashed till they wash them themselves and they would be generally shunned and also participated in that you must remember that all her life. She had lived with those prejudices even if when she started doing her chores of cleaning the chamber pot and things. The prejudices hadn't gone.

[00:09:09] She was doing it because she was in South Africa and she believed that over there societal norms did not matter but back in India the traditions and the prejudices and the societal norms did matter and she was seeing the manifestation in the rest of the community.

[00:09:27] And so Bapu again led down the rules had okay you don't want to live by the rules of the ashram get out. Everybody who doesn't want to live by the rules of the ashram get out and once you are out you're not going to be a

[00:09:42] welcome back and this is for good. There will be no forgiveness office because I can't accept people with these kind of irrational prejudices. And that included bar was no exception for. And once again Bartix a step backwards. This time she tells herself you know I cleaned the chamber

[00:10:09] pot if I can do it in South Africa why can't I do it in India. And finally my I have to be with my husband. If he is not getting polluted by communication and contact with the untouchables how can I.

[00:10:28] And then she starts seeing instead of the caste identity she starts seeing the human beings. She starts seeing a girl. A cute girl an innocent girl and she starts feeling affection for her. And slowly the ice breaks and then she starts except she

[00:10:50] accepts the girl first starts taking care for her starts indulging her starts being affectionate with her and the bond grows it's reciprocated it goes to the elders also then do the by comes to. And he says look I've got a job as a teacher I have to

[00:11:11] provide for my family and I have to take that job. It's a necessity so I can't live in your show I'm going away. I'm going away. By is heartbroken she says can you at least leave your daughter with me.

[00:11:27] Is that such a such a such a change such a change initially the daughter goes and she comes visits by my looks forward to it but finally she comes and starts living with by in the ashram by that time they've moved to suburbity

[00:11:42] because Bapu realize is that he cannot succeed in his experiments of ideal community living in the midst of society. So he says I've got to move out of city limits go to a place that is insulated from the city and its influences and society.

[00:12:03] Where I can live independently self sustained and practice my beliefs without societal interference and so they identify a plot of land across the river from the city where they establish the ashram which comes to be known as suburbity. To Bapu's sense of humor it's also an ideal place

[00:12:29] because it's between the prison and the cremation ground and he says you know that the Satyagra his destination is either the prison or the ultimate sacrifice and going to the cremation ground and living between these two I will be constantly reminded of my objective.

[00:12:51] So this is the ideal space and that is how saddle land of suburbity ashram the 120 acres was bought and the ashram formed. I want to talk about another seminal movement not just for Gandhi but I think also for Kasurban of course for

[00:13:07] the freedom movement Champa when Gandhi went to Champa in 1917 to ensure that Indigo farmers got fair returns for their crops he realized that they also need an education and understanding of sanitation best childcare practices and so on.

[00:13:25] At that time too he turns to Kasurba what was her role in Champa and this is the I just want to tell listeners that this is the campaign that eventually earned Gandhi the title of Mahatma but let's talk about Kasurba her role in

[00:13:40] Champa and especially she was extremely innovative I believe in those times for example she drove him the message of sanitation through games and things like that talk us through that. See the thing is bars influence on Bapu was not only as a co-worker in Champa.

[00:13:57] It began as her being the person who make made him make up his mind you know Raj Kumar Shukla had been pursuing Bapu for a long time. Writing letters meeting him wherever he went petitioning him to come to Champa run but Bapu always doubted what Raj

[00:14:20] Kumar claimed to be the plight of Champa and he says there can't be this kind of a merciless administration. I'm sure this is exaggerated but Raj Kumar Shukla is insistent and he is persuasive and he turns up everywhere till Bapu actually starts feeling bothered by one fine day.

[00:14:40] He lands up in Sabarmati and Bapu says you know this guy is a real pest. I don't believe him. I don't believe that the British are this unjust and thus brutal what he's claiming and boss says you know you've seen the brutality in South Africa.

[00:14:58] I have experienced it myself. How can we refuse this man without at least giving him a chance to show us what it is. This don't you think that you owe him that much you should go and personally witness what he's saying and then if there

[00:15:16] is truth in what he's saying decide whether you want to fight for it how can you reject him without seeing and Bapu realizes he says yes you're right. At least I owe him that much and he promises him he says

[00:15:30] I'm coming to Kolkata and on my way back I will come to Champaran you take me to Champaran from Mozaffarpur and I will come to Champmoti Hari and show me around and he's taken bar with him because now Harilal is settled in Kolkata with

[00:15:50] his family and so by scheme to visit him. There's some very bad stories coming out of Kolkata about his condition and by is worried. So they visit Kolkata and then they go to Patna and then Mozaffarpur and then Rajkumar Shukla takes them to Moti Hari

[00:16:10] and what by and Bapu witness in Moti Hari and its surroundings shocks them because they've never ever they've traveled through India and they've seen the poverty and the disparity and the plight. But even after that exposure the what they see in

[00:16:30] Champaran shocks them beyond belief and in the first few days Bapu realizes the absence of women from the public place and he starts suspecting that there's a Pardah system which forbids women from being in the public place and

[00:16:50] that is why there is this absolute absence of women from public places. So he puts bar to the job says find out and bring them out of their homes. I want to listen to them also but tries but no matter what she does, she can't breach that veil.

[00:17:08] You know the women refuse to come out and refuse to allow her to go in. Finally, she manages to get them talking from inside their hearts and once that contact is established slowly she realizes the horror of the poverty over there.

[00:17:28] When she is told that the whole family shares one piece of cloth as clothing amongst all its members. So when one person wears that cloth and goes out, the rest of the family is you know forced to live indoors naked in the darkness of their heart.

[00:17:49] And that is why men go out during the day to do all their work and so only men are seen and the women are confined to their homes naked. Ba comes out comes and tells Bapu about this and Bapu

[00:18:04] looks inwards and he says he's wearing seven piece pieces of clothing on his body. And he says I claim to be their leader and yet I am so ostentatious in my dress. How can they identify with me? I will always be identified with the Raja Maharajas and

[00:18:25] their oppressor just because of my dress. And he says no, I'm going to simplify my clothing and he comes down to just a parent and a dhoti and gives up all the other superfluous clothing. And then he slowly encourages Ba to work with the women

[00:18:45] and Ba says the major thing that is required is cleanliness, sanitation and hygiene and I need to educate them. She starts working independently by Bapu is interacting with the peasants and preparing a case for them. Bob moves into the district and starts working with the

[00:19:04] women and their problems and their plight and talking about hygiene and cleanliness and personal habits and things and the women laugh at her. The day you are typical urban women, you know, you're talking about bathing and you're talking about and you

[00:19:22] frown upon our unhygienic ways and our dirty existence and all that. Do you even imagine how we live? That how do you expect me to bed when I have just one piece of cloth? How do you expect me to wash clothes every day?

[00:19:39] What do I wear when I wash what I have? I possess only one cloth. How do I do that? And then Ba realizes that she has to live with that poverty for the time being and yet device methods by which they will change their existence, their miserable existence.

[00:19:59] And so she devices games which include cleanliness, personal hygiene, bathing, washing clothes. She combines the ritual of bathing and washing clothes into one. Then she says, okay, you don't have a bathroom. You can't bathe in public naked.

[00:20:15] So we'll device a whole game where there are two groups of women, one group of women who will use the clothing as as cover as curtains while the other group bathes and then you switch and the other group holds up the clothing as

[00:20:32] it and while they're holding up those wet clothing, the wet clothing will dry. So then finally you can dress in that. This is how she starts changing things. She sets up schools in the villages. It starts an uneducated woman is running schools in the

[00:20:50] district villages independently so that the children can get rudimentary education. She's working on her own. Bapu tramps and is able to replace the unfair system by a just system. There's a lot of resentment against him. There's an attempt on his life also, but the resentment

[00:21:14] against Bapu is focused on bar and the British. Sameen, the arts and factory owners and one particularly vicious one. He actually attacks bars dwelling in his school or school twice demolishes it and burns it down. Thinking that this lonely woman will be terrorized and she'll run away.

[00:21:39] But she doesn't he doesn't know that by has lived through the oppression of South Africa. Doesn't scare that easily and both the times said, okay, you demolished it. You burned it. I'm going to rebuild it, but I'm not going to quit and she rebuilds her school.

[00:21:57] She rebuilds her dwelling and she continues with her work for six months. Bapu has been called back to Keda to work with Sardar Patel because he's also working again as a loyal citizen of the Empire to recruit armed forces for the

[00:22:16] armed forces of the British for the war effort. So he's gone back to Keda. Bah is working in Champaran on her own. So by is that he held heroine of Champaran. Bapu becomes the Mahatma because of the job because of Champaran and his position as the numero uno

[00:22:35] leader of the freedom movement is established because of the Champaran Satyagra. But the real heroine of the Champaran Satyagra is the school customer. I just show strength of character, of course, but also such a tragedy that such few people know about that.

[00:22:51] What I want to ask you to share is that once Gandhi is defied, he becomes a Mahatma. I'm very curious to know how this woman, his wife customer reacts to that deification because for him is a guy she's seen since he was six years old or

[00:23:07] they're about and they were married at 13, perhaps or they're about and she's just lived with him all his life. She's also seen him as this guy who's failed continuously and then also transformed. How did she react to this deification?

[00:23:20] I think by the time this persona of the Mahatma was established, Bah had realized that she had married an ever changing person and she knew that, you know, every time he changed for the better. Every time, although initially it felt very traumatic.

[00:23:45] Finally, the realization occurred that is much better than what he was. And so I don't think she would have been very surprised by this public identity of the Mahatma. To her, it didn't matter. To her, he was going to be her darling, her Mohan.

[00:24:03] No matter what the world talked to of him about, he was going to remain the love of his life. That would have been the primary identity. That was the primary thing that concerned her. The nothing else mattered from Gandhi Bhai,

[00:24:20] Barista Gandhi to Gandhi Bhai to Gandhi Ji to Mahatma. Whether it's public persona to her, he was going to remain the love of her life. Mohan, her darling. What we're seeing now is that of her really emerging as a driving force of the movement by herself.

[00:24:43] In fact, when Gandhi called for a boycott of foreign goods, she even burnt her favorite saree when he did that. So she seems to be like I said, emerging in her own right as one of the driving forces of the freedom

[00:24:56] movement. In fact, very few people know that she was even part of local strategy sessions during the struggle. Ashraf, you must remember that as part of the struggle, Swadeshi was supposed to be the pivotal movement and the revival of traditional crafts and skills was going to be

[00:25:17] the pivot of the Swadeshi campaign. And for that, there was a concerted effort to revive Khadi spinning and weaving at Sabarmati Ashram. They found a craft lady who knew both the skills of spinning and weaving who was brought to Sabarmati Ashram to teach the skills to the ashramites.

[00:25:43] And Ba took to Khadi spinning like a fish to water. And very soon she became an expert spinner. Today we have spin doctors. Ba was the spin doctor of Khadi. She was acknowledged as being the best with the ability to spin Khadi.

[00:26:04] It was said that her yarn was the finest and used to be without brakes. So the ideal for weaving. And soon she became a master weaver in the ashram. And she trained people into spinning and it was acknowledged by Bapu himself.

[00:26:22] He said, you know, I used to always compete with my wife and my wife would beat me hands down in spinning because when she started spinning, she would get unbroken uniform fine strands of Khadi as if they were spun on a machine.

[00:26:42] He said, no matter what I tried, the yarn I spun was always uneven. It used to be frequent breakages. So they were knots in it and it used to be a weaver's nightmare, but Kastur's yarn was of the finest quality and she beat me hands down in spinning.

[00:27:05] So Ba became the icon when she started accompanying Bapu on his public in his public meetings that identity of Ba or she would be sitting next to him on the stage spinning her Charaka and everybody would see that powerful iconography isn't it? Yes.

[00:27:23] And it became a fashion for the women who start coming to the meetings who would copy by and so the demand for Charaka has kept increasing for Sabar Bhati Ashram. Ba became the icon of the Charaka for the nation.

[00:27:40] And when Bapu finally ordered the burning of foreign goods, Ba made a big sacrifice. It was a saree that was presented to her by her father, a very precious fabric from the Middle East, the silk from the Middle East, which was her favorite most favorite and she took

[00:28:01] it to Bapu and said, burn this. If you want others to burn their things, they must see us disposing of our own things too. And Ba gave her saree up to be burned and that inspired people and they were this very inspiring images of people actually

[00:28:23] disrobing and burning their clothes. And they said the people who are asking us to do that have done that in themselves. Why should we doubt? We should do our own thing. And so Ba slowly was becoming the icon of the various

[00:28:41] aspects of Satyagra, the Swadeshi, the Kadi, the Ashram, all of it. And while she was becoming that icon, she was also fading away into the background. She realized that the focus was now on her husband and the husband was becoming omnipresent over the movement

[00:29:01] in India and she realized this is my time. To merge into his shadow as his shadow increases, mine has to merge in and she voluntarily does that. And so then you see Ba slowly fading away from public perception and it she did it so efficiently that India

[00:29:23] forgot her existence. That's right. We don't really talk about her in the same breath that we do when we refer to Gandhi. Also, Ba had some serious diplomacy skills. Didn't she? I read that when Pyarelal Nayar, who went on to become one

[00:29:37] of Gandhi's most trusted secretaries, first started working for him. It was opposed by his mother. She wanted Pyarelal to join the civil service because she felt that it was his time to earn it be good for the family and so on.

[00:29:51] It was Kastur Ba who persuaded the mother to let Pyarelal work with Gandhi. So tell us about that. Yes, Pyarelal Nayar was from a Punjabi family. His mother was a widow. She had really struggled to put him through university studies and after graduation, she dreamt that as was

[00:30:12] a tradition of men in her family, Pyarelal would follow in the footsteps of his father and join the Indian civil services and then come, you know, the family would be comfortably provided for but during his student years, Pyarelal came under the influence of Bapu and

[00:30:33] started corresponding with him till a time was reached when Pyarelal was, you know, started questioning Bapu about his future. And Bapu said they were too far away. You know, if you want to take a decision, come and witness how we are living, what ashram life is,

[00:30:52] what is expected of Satyagrahis and things. Bapu was also now recruiting his entourage. His loyal core and so he wanted, he saw the prospects of this brilliant young mind and he wanted him with him himself. So he invited Pyarelal and Pyarelal came and initially

[00:31:15] he came for a month and then suddenly he said, No, no, I'm going to stay with you. I want to live with you. I want to dedicate my life to you. So he wrote to his mother and said, Mother, I've

[00:31:26] decided I'm going to stay with Gandhi and my life is with him now. And the mother was shocked. She said, What about me? My old age? You're my only support. What can I do? What about your sister? Young sister, she's still studying. She has to be married.

[00:31:45] It's your duty to provide for her. So she had a very angry exchange of letters with Bapu where Bapu was trying to convince her and she was very angry with him for leading her son astray. And so Bapu finally said, Why don't you come to my ashram

[00:32:03] and see for yourself what is happening? And then you decide what you want to do. We'll abide by that. And she finally says, Okay, I'll come. But it so happens that the day she lands up in Sabarmati ashram either intentionally or unintentionally both

[00:32:22] parallel and Bapu are tied up with things. And so she's ignored. And so she's sitting on the veranda of Radhaikunj getting angrier by the minute. And Bha notices this and Bha realizes that, you know, this is my husband's way of recruiting me to do his work for him.

[00:32:46] So she starts talking to the mother, not broaching the subject, but talking to her, talking about her history, her tradition, her family, her expectations and things like that. And every few minutes she would narrate her own life and

[00:33:04] all the changes that she has undergone and the trauma of the chain and things like that. And the end of the conversation, she brings unknowingly to the mother. She manipulates the mother to saying, Okay, if he wants this, I'll give him five years.

[00:33:20] But after five years, he has to come back to me and take responsibility. And so Bha, let's Bapu know. Okay, I've done your work and Bapu comes back. He said, but what if your son after five years decides to be with me all the time?

[00:33:37] She said, Nothing doing. I'm giving him five years. He has to come back. So Bapu says instead, why don't you and your daughter come to me and start staying with us? And while your son is learning things, you will also

[00:33:50] realize how much better it is to stay with me. She says, you're a lunatic. You're a dangerous man. You're not satisfied with my son. Now you want my daughter and myself also. Nothing doing in details parallel five years from today,

[00:34:06] you're coming back and you're not going to no excuses will be tolerated. You're back with me and you'll do what I tell you. But within those five years, her daughter, Susheela has also come to the ashram and she till her dying day, she

[00:34:23] tells Bapu, you are a devil. You destroyed my family. You took both my children away from me and things, but this does the magic of Kastur. She knew how to appeal to people. She knew how to turn them around towards them.

[00:34:41] Bapu used to confront the my way or the highway. Baah said, finally my way, but your decision. Yeah. That was the skill that she had. Absolutely. But let's come to another skill, which is, you know, the organizational skill or the strength that one needs to see in Satyagrahi.

[00:35:02] I'm referring to the Dandi March, March 1930. Again, when we talk about the Dandi March, we talk about Gandhi, very, very few people know again that Kastur Baah had a huge role to play in it too. Tell us about that post the Dandi Kul because during

[00:35:19] the Dandi Kul, Bapu forbid the participation of women. And so Baah was excluded from everything and Bapu was doing it on his own. Baah accepted it. But when Bapu declared that he was going to quit Sabar Mati Ashram and not go coming back to it till

[00:35:36] he won independence again, the specter of being homeless, uprooted was staring at Baah's face. She was helpless. She couldn't do anything. Her husband had already pledged it and she knew once he took a pledge, nothing could change his mind. We said, okay, another uprootment.

[00:35:56] I don't know where I'll go. What I'll do. So when Bapu leaves, she walks with him on the first day. She walks with him when he departs from the Ashram after sending him off. She walks with him when he departs, walks through

[00:36:12] Ahmedabad, Gujarat with the Apeet and they go reach the riverbed of Sabar Mati. She crosses the riverbed at the other end. Bapu turns back and she's at Baah. Now you have to go back. Take care of yourself. Take care of the Ashram.

[00:36:30] You may not see me alive anymore because I'm not coming back without freedom and Bapu, Baah knows. You know, my husband is obstinate enough to live up to his promise. So I don't know whether I'm going to see him and she's not only sending off her husband.

[00:36:46] She's sending off her son Manilal and her grandson Kanti, Hari's son. And so three members of her family, she's going to lose. She doesn't know what will happen. She's losing her home again. She's going to be homeless, but she also knows that

[00:37:06] if my husband has taken a vow, I have to also take a vow and participate in this as soon as the green signal is given by my husband, I must take my active part. So although she is forbidden from joining the March in

[00:37:23] three places, she goes and joins the March and walks with Bapu. It's a very interesting story in Baruch when the marches are two days away from Baruch. Baah again lands up at their camp and she starts walking with Bapu. When Bapu reaches Baruch, she is with him.

[00:37:42] When they cross the Narmada, she's sitting in the boat in which the Satyagrahi's cross the Narmada to go to the other bank. There it is realized that the place where they disembark is five kilometers, five miles down the stream from the path to Ankleshwar.

[00:38:03] So all the other Satyagrahi's get off the boat and start walking along the coast. But they arranged for a launch for Baah and Bapu and Baah and Bapu sit in that launch with the Magi who you know rose them along the riverfront, the river shore.

[00:38:25] To the place where the path joins the river. And it's a beautiful picture. The sun is setting. This couple is sitting and crossed in talking to each other. The Satyagrahi's are walking on the shore on one side. And you know in the old Hindi films this would have

[00:38:44] been the ideal situation for a Oh Nodire song kind of thing at sunset, two lovers in a boat having intimate chat history being created on the side. I can picture that that whole scene in my mind and it gives me goosebumps.

[00:39:05] But I mean such a deeply emotional moment in a public moment, a private sort of intimate incident in their lives. To me it sort of portrays the life that they're leaving in the public gaze, but in the privacy of their hearts with each other.

[00:39:31] Again managing a private relationship even in such a public persona, even such a public life. Yeah, and then Baah comes into her own post the Dandi Kuchwa and Bapu declares the Namak Satyagrahi and is immediately arrested. Baah comes into her own and she realizes that this is my

[00:39:52] duty and she starts taking participating in the campaign for Swadeshi, the campaign for Khadi and the campaign for picketing liquor stores. And she's so successful that the revenue from liquor of the government drops to a appreciable percentage till the government starts taking note of Mrs. Gandhi's

[00:40:16] activities and that is when the Cilsala of her arrests start and she's she becomes a jailbird on her own. She's more in jail than out of it while Bapu is in jail the next six years. The couple hardly meets each other because when one is

[00:40:36] in jail, the other is free. The one that is in jail, the other is free kind of thing or both are in jail together. And it's only during a couple of times when Bapu undertakes his fasts in prison that Baah is released to be with him.

[00:40:54] And as soon as the situation normalizes, they are arrested again and put back into prison and for six next six years that happens repeatedly and Bapu, we must understand Baah is never arrested because she is Gandhi's wife. She's a Satya Grahi.

[00:41:13] She is arrested because she is a Satya Grahi in her own right who has defied the colonial administration on her own without her husband saying because of her own belief. It is only an ungrateful nation that has forgotten this

[00:41:32] sacrifice and this role of Baah and relegated her to a one-dimensional Gandhi's wife identity and decided for themselves that oh, she went to prison because she had to cook the meal for Gandhi. Which is very far from the truth.

[00:41:47] The truth is he went to prison because she defied the colonial administration as strongly as Gandhi defied himself and to all those people who ridicule our Satya Grahi and the sacrifices of our Satya Grahis, I tell them go and spend a day in the prison yourself.

[00:42:08] At least one day before you start blabbering in public. Tushar, I want to end this part of the series with you recounting a conversation Kasturba had with the voice Roy's wife, Lady Willingdon, in which she advised her to

[00:42:23] live with the people if she really wanted to know them. But there is a interesting back and forth that happens there. Could you recount that for us? See this is post the Lamang Satya Grah and Bapu is being invited for this roundtable conference in London.

[00:42:40] And for that device Roy, the new vice Roy invites by and Bapu to Shimla to meet with them. And Bapu and Bob both travel from Mumbai to Shimla to meet the vice Roy. It's a beautiful meeting. And they go to the vice-regional large where Lady

[00:43:03] Wellington has also insisted that Mrs. Gandhi accompany because she would like to talk and using Susheela Nayar. I think Susheela Nayar or Rajkumari Amrit Kaur, one of the two as an interpreter. Ba has a conversation with Lady Lady Wellington and she

[00:43:20] compliments her on the garden and the beautiful upkeep and all that and Lady Wellington compliments her on her role and her simplicity and her husband's role. And she talks about Khadi and you know, wanting to own a piece of Khadi and Ba says, don't worry.

[00:43:40] I'll send you one. So the Vizierina says, you know, I'd like it in a mauve rose shade. So Bapu, Ba must have the vanity of the whites. She said, don't worry. I'll send it to you. And she said, you know, you live the Vizierina and tells Ba

[00:43:59] she says, I envy your life. You're living right in the midst of your people. You live like them. I wish I could have done the same thing. And Ba said, this is the beginning. You know, this is that admirable thought and you

[00:44:13] would put it in practice because unless you know the subjects, how will you rule them? So I advise you go ahead. Live with the women of India. Understand how they live. Then you will be a better person to rule them as the vice Roy's wife.

[00:44:31] And this is, you know, she's also telling them that look, come out of your lofty thing. Don't sit in Shimla in your palace and talk about the common Indians. Come into the plains. Live in their villages. If you want, I'll accompany you there.

[00:44:48] But there's no use us sitting in Shimla and talking about the poor Indians in the rest of the country. We can't even imagine. So while she's being very polite and diplomatic, she's being very, very astutely honest and saying what hypocrisy is this?

[00:45:06] You're sitting in a hill station in your palace served by all these servants. You talk about wanting to learn the way the peasants live. You even know anything about it? This is the bar who will not ever tolerate hypocrisy, but

[00:45:23] she has also learned that it's no use just lashing out. We have to find a middle way. That is the true Satya. Tushar, thank you for painting this wonderful picture of this evolution and transformation of Castor Bah and

[00:45:40] also detailing how she is truly a Satya and a great freedom fighter in her own right. With this, we conclude part five of the six part series on Castor Bah Gandhi, the Mahatma's wife and her role in India's freedom movement.

[00:45:55] In the final part, we will discuss the person that Castor Bah was, the strength she showed in adversity and what made her tick.