Kastur: In Gandhi’s Shadow, His Guiding Light – Part 4

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this very special All-Indians Matter in-depth series, Kastur, In Gandhi's

[00:00:17] Shadow, His Guiding Light on Kasturba, the wife of Mahatma, I am Ashraf Engineer.

[00:00:22] Mohandas and Kastur Gandhi returned to India briefly in December 1901.

[00:00:27] This set off a chain of events that would take them to South Africa once again and

[00:00:31] eventually culminate in Gandhi devoting himself fully to Indian independence.

[00:00:36] In part four of this series, we'll talk about that with Tushar Gandhi, great grandson of Mahatma

[00:00:41] and author, a peace activist and someone who's striving to keep Gandhi relevant in today's

[00:00:46] India.

[00:00:47] Tushar is also writing a book on Kasturba called Kastur Ne Diary.

[00:00:50] Welcome Tushar.

[00:00:51] Thank you Ashraf.

[00:00:52] So Tushar, this is his first return to India from South Africa.

[00:00:56] Gandhi established a law practice first in Rajkot and then in Mumbai.

[00:01:01] So Kasturba, it seems to have been a time of sorrow and tumult not to mention the shift

[00:01:06] again from one place to another.

[00:01:09] Yes, after the trial by fire and the very traumatic initiation into a new life in South

[00:01:19] Africa, there was turmoil in the personal relationship also.

[00:01:24] There was turmoil about the practices at home.

[00:01:29] There was turmoil about the future of the children.

[00:01:32] And there were two more children by then.

[00:01:33] Yes, and two more children were born very traumatic for both.

[00:01:38] You must remember that when Ramdas, Baba was pregnant with her third child Ramdas,

[00:01:47] Babu said that this time you're going to get a doctor to supervise your delivery

[00:01:54] and he's going to take care of that.

[00:01:56] And a trauma, a man doing the delivery?

[00:02:00] Horrible.

[00:02:01] It has to be done by a midwife.

[00:02:03] Midwife exactly.

[00:02:04] That's what she would have been used to.

[00:02:05] And now a man would be privy to her.

[00:02:10] But Babu has decided no.

[00:02:12] He has to be a doctor.

[00:02:15] Finally accepts by strange lands, strange cultures, strange traditions and my swamis

[00:02:21] orders.

[00:02:23] So okay, even that humiliation will be accepted.

[00:02:28] And when the time for birth comes, the midwife and the nurse are not available.

[00:02:35] The doctor is there but there's no midwife, there's no nurse to assist him.

[00:02:42] And it's becoming critical.

[00:02:45] So suddenly Mohan Das says I'll assist.

[00:02:50] My husband will assist in the birth of my child.

[00:02:54] That's never done.

[00:02:55] The husband is excluded from the birth room.

[00:02:58] I'm going to do it.

[00:03:01] He needs an assistant, I'm going to be that assistant.

[00:03:04] And then Mohan witnesses for the first time.

[00:03:09] The pain and the trauma that Baba goes through in the delivery because Ramdas' delivery

[00:03:16] is difficult.

[00:03:19] She takes a long time.

[00:03:21] She suffers for a long time.

[00:03:24] There are anxious movements.

[00:03:27] Post the delivery, she is completely drained because of the effort.

[00:03:34] She's near collapse.

[00:03:35] The doctor says she needs a lot of care.

[00:03:39] She's lost a lot of blood during the delivery.

[00:03:44] She needs a lot of care.

[00:03:45] She needs bed rest.

[00:03:47] As the first time Mohan realizes the price that man's male lust takes on the female.

[00:03:59] And suddenly he has this thought, lust is violent.

[00:04:07] Look at the violence it commits on a woman.

[00:04:11] And this thought starts nagging him.

[00:04:14] As he witnesses the discrimination of the Asians by the whites.

[00:04:22] He says, what am I doing?

[00:04:23] Where am I pointing fingers at the whites?

[00:04:26] Am I not discriminating against my wife?

[00:04:30] Am I not discriminating my wife?

[00:04:32] Am I not brutalizing her?

[00:04:35] Look at the suffering she had to endure because of my lust.

[00:04:39] I enjoyed it.

[00:04:42] Was pleasure for me.

[00:04:44] But was it not punishment for my wife?

[00:04:48] Isn't that violence?

[00:04:50] The dilemma begins in his mind.

[00:04:54] And then he goes volunteers in the Boar War.

[00:04:58] He decides that as a loyal citizen, he has to establish his loyalty to the crown.

[00:05:05] To establish his right for equality from the crown.

[00:05:10] He won't fight because by then he has accepted non-violence as his creed.

[00:05:17] But he will do his duty and so he raises a voluntary group of Asians as volunteers to

[00:05:25] give medical services and evacuation on the battle front.

[00:05:30] He undergoes training for that.

[00:05:31] Mr. Tushar, forgive me for interrupting you but we'll come to that.

[00:05:36] This is when he actually goes back to South Africa.

[00:05:38] We'll come to that.

[00:05:39] I want to talk about how when Kasturba and Gandhi returned for this brief period to

[00:05:45] India, this must have been a period of sorrow for her.

[00:05:50] Her parents I believe were no more by then.

[00:05:53] When they returned to India for a time being because Bapu thinks that now the

[00:05:58] community is well taken care of.

[00:06:01] He says now I can go back to India.

[00:06:03] I can work over there and I'll keep a watch on what's happening in South Africa.

[00:06:10] And if there is ever a requirement, I'll come back.

[00:06:13] But I'll now have to go back to India, be with my family, take on work over there.

[00:06:19] And so they pack up and leave South Africa again a clash.

[00:06:25] The community is hugely indebted to Gandhi's.

[00:06:30] So lavish farewells are given to them.

[00:06:35] They gather a purse for the Gandhi's for the services they have rendered and

[00:06:42] they present it to Gandhi Bhai.

[00:06:46] They shower lavish gifts on Kastur for the service she rendered to the community

[00:06:54] and for allowing Gandhi Bhai to do what he did for the community.

[00:06:59] And it's a princess ransom.

[00:07:02] It's a treasure beyond their imagination, the money, the gifts, everything.

[00:07:10] Overwhelming.

[00:07:11] Bhai is happy.

[00:07:13] My children are provided for.

[00:07:14] My future is secure.

[00:07:18] Bapu says this is immoral.

[00:07:21] If I accept this for the service of the community, then I'm benefiting from that.

[00:07:27] Then it is no longer a service.

[00:07:31] Then it's an occupation.

[00:07:32] I'm not doing it as an occupation.

[00:07:34] I can't accept this.

[00:07:37] So he declares that he's making a trust and the purse and everything that is

[00:07:44] given to him will be put in a trust and used for the welfare of the community.

[00:07:50] And so he does that.

[00:07:51] He doesn't bother to ask Kastur.

[00:07:53] It's not her decision.

[00:07:55] It's his decision.

[00:07:57] Then he goes to Kastur and says, you can't accept the jewelry.

[00:08:01] Because that also is like a renumeration for my services and I can't accept any renumeration.

[00:08:08] So Kastur says that is nothing to do with you.

[00:08:10] They've given the gift to me.

[00:08:12] If I don't accept it, it will dishonor them.

[00:08:15] There'll be an insult.

[00:08:17] And it is my right.

[00:08:18] You have no say in it.

[00:08:19] No.

[00:08:21] It's given to you because you're my wife.

[00:08:23] Haven't I sacrificed for the community?

[00:08:27] Haven't I given you up for the community?

[00:08:30] Don't I deserve anything?

[00:08:31] No.

[00:08:33] If I don't deserve it, just my wife, you don't deserve it.

[00:08:36] No.

[00:08:37] I do.

[00:08:39] I have a responsibility to my sons.

[00:08:43] No, mama.

[00:08:45] We'll manage on our own.

[00:08:48] If we want anything, we learn it.

[00:08:51] Oh.

[00:08:51] So this is the son speaking.

[00:08:54] Oh, so now you went behind my back and even influenced my sons.

[00:08:59] Instigated them to be against me.

[00:09:02] What do I do with you?

[00:09:03] You're such a manipulator.

[00:09:07] But I'm not giving up this thing.

[00:09:11] Fine?

[00:09:13] We can't take it.

[00:09:14] This is my decision.

[00:09:16] And you will have to understand that and accept it.

[00:09:20] But isn't this my right?

[00:09:24] I've sacrificed so much.

[00:09:26] You're going to put a price on your sacrifice

[00:09:28] and then call it sacrifice.

[00:09:31] Ah, I can never win with you.

[00:09:34] OK, do what you like.

[00:09:37] And the jewelry is also put in the trust.

[00:09:42] My is not allowed to keep a single gift.

[00:09:45] At least let me keep this box.

[00:09:49] No, whether you keep that box or you keep the whole torso.

[00:09:54] It's one and the same thing.

[00:09:55] We can't keep anything.

[00:09:58] Can't I have a souvenir of my stay in South Africa?

[00:10:03] Tell me.

[00:10:03] I'll buy you whatever you want.

[00:10:06] But this is a symbol that we must make.

[00:10:10] We must not expect anything in return for our service, which

[00:10:15] we have rendered voluntarily.

[00:10:18] What happens if you don't turn in India?

[00:10:21] Ah, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[00:10:24] Oh, so I have to live with uncertainty again.

[00:10:29] When am I going to settle down in life?

[00:10:31] That seems to have been the constant strain

[00:10:33] throughout her life, isn't it?

[00:10:35] Yeah, that's going to be the...

[00:10:36] Uncertainty, I'm never going to settle down anyway.

[00:10:38] No roots.

[00:10:40] I'm going to be a rootless person.

[00:10:42] Well, if you don't put down roots,

[00:10:44] I will also not put down roots.

[00:10:47] We are two together like a ship without a port.

[00:10:51] We'll go wherever the wind takes us.

[00:10:53] Don't worry, I'm there.

[00:10:56] You study me, I'll study you.

[00:10:57] Ah, I know how to study you.

[00:10:59] Also, don't worry, I'm there, especially

[00:11:01] gaging from the life that they had so far.

[00:11:04] Just worry, I'm there.

[00:11:05] You see, this is the humanizing of the two individuals.

[00:11:10] We've always talked about them in the philosophies,

[00:11:14] in the third person.

[00:11:15] We've never realized that they were human beings

[00:11:18] who had a human relationship.

[00:11:19] We have to humanize them to understand them.

[00:11:21] That is a critical point, I think, Tushar.

[00:11:23] And that's really one of the many objectives of this series.

[00:11:27] The people behind the legends, I think,

[00:11:29] is as important to understand as it is

[00:11:34] to understand their work overall.

[00:11:35] To me, unless you understand those people,

[00:11:39] you will never appreciate the legends that they create.

[00:11:42] Absolutely.

[00:11:43] Absolutely.

[00:11:44] I'd like to move on with the story, Tushar.

[00:11:46] In 1902, August 1902, the family moves to Bombay briefly

[00:11:52] but doesn't stay very long there.

[00:11:54] By November 1902, it's time to go back to South Africa.

[00:11:58] Why?

[00:11:59] See, lots of things happen.

[00:12:00] They come back to India.

[00:12:03] It's a tragic return to India because while they

[00:12:07] are in South Africa, Kastur has lost her parents.

[00:12:12] It's as if somebody with an eraser just erased them

[00:12:17] from their lives.

[00:12:19] Because in South Africa, we never hear about Kastur

[00:12:22] getting news of her parents passing.

[00:12:25] Only when they return to South Africa,

[00:12:29] suddenly we realize that she doesn't have a family.

[00:12:32] Only her brothers are there.

[00:12:34] Her parents have sort of disappeared in the interim.

[00:12:38] It must have been very traumatic for her.

[00:12:41] She was very attached to both her parents.

[00:12:45] Now, they're truly orphaned.

[00:12:47] Both sets of parents are gone.

[00:12:50] So the homecoming is not that joyous either.

[00:12:55] And they come back to Rajkot, decide that, OK,

[00:12:58] we'll settle down here.

[00:12:59] And he starts, again, the practice

[00:13:02] of writing petitions, writing appeals.

[00:13:05] Now he's much more confident and experienced.

[00:13:09] He gets cases also.

[00:13:12] Starts, wins a couple of cases, creates a reputation for himself.

[00:13:19] But the realization occurs that this is Rajkot.

[00:13:23] The pool of opportunity is small over here.

[00:13:28] I can't grow over here.

[00:13:31] And again, the family benefactor steps in.

[00:13:35] And he said, look with your potential, your ability,

[00:13:39] your place is in Bombay or in Delhi.

[00:13:42] You can't live in Rajkot.

[00:13:44] You will never survive.

[00:13:46] You'll never thrive over here.

[00:13:47] Go to Bombay.

[00:13:50] And so the move again.

[00:13:54] And Kastur is left in Rajkot.

[00:13:58] He says, I'll go to Bombay.

[00:13:59] I'll set up a practice over there.

[00:14:02] I'll get you.

[00:14:04] Within a short time, I'll get you there.

[00:14:06] So he sets up an office in Fort to be near the courts.

[00:14:12] He finds a living quarter in Gamdevi, a congested locality.

[00:14:19] And he calls for Kastur and the children.

[00:14:21] Over there, a traumatic thing happened.

[00:14:25] Now he is doing well in his practice also.

[00:14:28] He's no longer the unsuccessful lawyer,

[00:14:31] no longer the barrister without a brief.

[00:14:34] He's doing good.

[00:14:37] But a traumatic thing happens.

[00:14:39] Bani Lal, who had suffered from bout of smallpox in South

[00:14:44] Africa and recovered, had a fragile composition

[00:14:48] health-wise.

[00:14:50] And he gets afflicted by typhoid and pneumonia

[00:14:55] at the same time and becomes very ill and weak.

[00:15:00] And the doctor who is treating him at one point of time

[00:15:05] comes to Bapu and says, I think you're going to lose your son.

[00:15:11] He's sinking rapidly.

[00:15:13] The only way I see of saving him

[00:15:16] is you have to give him eggs and chicken soup.

[00:15:21] He needs his strength vitality to fight these infections.

[00:15:26] Bapu says what?

[00:15:29] Bapu says, no, this is blasphemy.

[00:15:31] We are Vaishnavas.

[00:15:33] We don't even eat garlic and onions.

[00:15:37] We can't eat chicken.

[00:15:38] We can't eat egg.

[00:15:41] But he'll die.

[00:15:42] Now what do we do?

[00:15:44] Bapu by now has turned towards nature cure.

[00:15:48] He's studying nature cure.

[00:15:50] He's studying alternative medicine.

[00:15:52] He's come under the influence of a German nature

[00:15:56] cureist who has pioneered this whole system of medication

[00:16:02] of hot and cold baths, soaking and all those things.

[00:16:08] Wet bandages, wet blankets and all that.

[00:16:12] And he asks Ba, he says, you know, the doctor has given up

[00:16:17] and you don't want to feed him what is forbidden.

[00:16:21] Is it time that I tried my own cures?

[00:16:25] And Ba says, yes, what else can we do?

[00:16:28] So Bapu turns to the doctor and said, look, we can't accept what you're saying.

[00:16:34] But if you have given up hope, can I try my method?

[00:16:39] But will you keep coming and giving him a checkup

[00:16:44] so that we know whether my treatment is working or it's not?

[00:16:49] And he said, fine, but I'm warning you, he won't survive.

[00:16:52] And Bapu says, OK, I'll take that risk.

[00:16:55] But I'm sure I'll help.

[00:16:58] And so he starts nursing Manila back.

[00:17:02] And there is a whole system of soaking in hot and cold water

[00:17:07] and wet bandages and wet sponges and wet covering with wet sheets

[00:17:14] and things like that in an effort to break the cycle of the fever.

[00:17:19] Nothing seems to be working.

[00:17:21] Money keeps sinking.

[00:17:24] One point they reach a moment of crisis

[00:17:26] when Manila has become disoriented

[00:17:30] and he has become, you know, he's delirious.

[00:17:35] He's mumbling and moaning and whining

[00:17:40] and he has tremors and Bapu can't take it anymore.

[00:17:45] Finally, desperately, he soaks a couple of bedsheets in hot water

[00:17:53] and then he wraps Manila in that steaming bedsheet

[00:17:59] and covers him with four blankets

[00:18:02] and tells Kasturi says, I can't watch money.

[00:18:06] We might lose him.

[00:18:08] And I'm not prepared to watch losing my son.

[00:18:12] I've done what I can.

[00:18:14] I'm going out, look after our son.

[00:18:18] And he walks out and for two to two and a half hours

[00:18:22] he strolls up and down on the Jopati beach

[00:18:27] in a rage of emotions.

[00:18:31] Sure that when he goes back home

[00:18:33] he's going to see his son dead

[00:18:36] and yet not having the courage to go and see that.

[00:18:41] He feels that let me stay away from home.

[00:18:44] I don't want to see the dead face of my son.

[00:18:47] If I stay away maybe something different will happen.

[00:18:50] Finally, finally two and a half hours later

[00:18:55] he reluctantly returns home.

[00:18:59] And the first thing that happens is he hears

[00:19:02] money's weak voice pleading with Baba

[00:19:06] take these bedsheets off,

[00:19:08] Baba please take these bedsheets off.

[00:19:10] He says he's alive and he rushes.

[00:19:18] This is an understandably emotional moment Toshara.

[00:19:20] This is your grandfather we are talking about.

[00:19:23] And he rushes into the group

[00:19:27] and money is alive.

[00:19:29] He's perspiring, the fever has broken

[00:19:32] and Baba heaves a sigh of relief.

[00:19:37] He falls on his knees and thanks God.

[00:19:42] And then money turns around.

[00:19:47] The recovery is slow but he starts recovering.

[00:19:52] Bapu has performed a miracle.

[00:19:55] He saved his own son in his method by his methods

[00:20:00] but he realizes that this place is not good for the family.

[00:20:07] It's too congested, there's too much a chance of an outbreak of disease

[00:20:14] and his family is susceptible, vulnerable.

[00:20:19] So he decides we're going to move out of here.

[00:20:22] I have to work here

[00:20:24] but my family doesn't have to live over here.

[00:20:28] So he starts looking for a place.

[00:20:31] And then that is the time when the suburban railway service started.

[00:20:36] There is a service from the center of the town,

[00:20:40] from the port going down into the suburbs,

[00:20:44] a regular service.

[00:20:46] So commuting is a possibility

[00:20:49] and so he, Bapu goes looking for a home in the suburbs,

[00:20:57] in a better climate.

[00:21:00] And he heads upon Santa Cruz

[00:21:04] where he finds that the atmosphere is good,

[00:21:07] it's near the sea,

[00:21:08] for one there again,

[00:21:09] Durban again.

[00:21:11] And there is a nice community over there,

[00:21:14] there are Gujaratis

[00:21:15] so Baba will be happy over there too.

[00:21:18] And he finds a bungalow

[00:21:20] and he rents it for the family

[00:21:22] and says this is where I will live with my family.

[00:21:25] I can walk to the station and take a train

[00:21:27] into town for work.

[00:21:29] But this is the best place for my family.

[00:21:32] And so the family moves over there.

[00:21:36] This is the time when he has also arranged for his two elder sons,

[00:21:42] his one elder son and his nephew's education.

[00:21:46] He sees that there are two opportunities,

[00:21:48] one is a school in Gondal

[00:21:51] and the other is a school in Banaras.

[00:21:55] So he does a toss of coin,

[00:21:57] he says, you know whoever draws the bigger coin

[00:22:01] will get Banaras,

[00:22:02] whoever draws the smaller value coin

[00:22:06] will get Gondal.

[00:22:08] And the nephew draws the bigger coin

[00:22:10] and goes to Banaras,

[00:22:12] Hari draws the smaller coin

[00:22:13] and goes to Gondal to study.

[00:22:16] And Dramdas and Manilal are with Bab.

[00:22:21] So sure, but why did they go to South Africa in the first place?

[00:22:25] Why did they go back?

[00:22:26] While they were settling down in Mumbai, Bombay

[00:22:32] and Bab thought that this was the place

[00:22:35] she was going to let down her roots finally

[00:22:39] because now as I said Rajkot and Katyaward

[00:22:41] also had lost its charm,

[00:22:43] the parents were no more.

[00:22:45] So the magnet of the family wasn't there.

[00:22:49] There was a telegram from South Africa

[00:22:53] and they said, some new laws happening

[00:22:57] and we need you back here.

[00:23:00] We can't do without you, Gandhi Bhai.

[00:23:03] Bapu looks at it and says, yes this is serious

[00:23:07] but it's not a big deal.

[00:23:08] He said, but it tells Bab,

[00:23:10] maybe I'll go for six months or a year

[00:23:13] and then I'll come back.

[00:23:15] You stay back over here, you're enjoying your place

[00:23:19] and I'll call my nephew and his wife and his young son.

[00:23:23] They'll come and stay with you.

[00:23:24] So they look after you also, they need a shelter also.

[00:23:28] So you stay put, I'll go and come back

[00:23:31] and Bapu returns to South Africa.

[00:23:35] He's not realized as yet

[00:23:38] that this is going to be the long haul.

[00:23:41] He thinks, you know, I'll solve the problem, come back

[00:23:44] and that's the end of it.

[00:23:45] You don't have to do much.

[00:23:48] It's only when he reaches South Africa

[00:23:51] that he realizes the sinister long-term plans

[00:23:56] of the South African administration.

[00:23:59] And the realization occurs to him

[00:24:02] that this is not a flash in the pan.

[00:24:04] This is going to take up a lot of time.

[00:24:08] He also realizes that he has to be closer

[00:24:11] to the political concentration

[00:24:16] because South Africa itself is changing.

[00:24:18] You know, Transvaal was born and Natal was in British.

[00:24:24] Now it's all British,

[00:24:26] but there is a strong war in Florence also.

[00:24:30] And so the political climate is changing,

[00:24:32] the makeup is changing and things.

[00:24:36] So he decides that he's going to shift to Johannesburg.

[00:24:39] So he opens his practices in Johannesburg

[00:24:43] and starts living over there.

[00:24:45] Then he gets a house in Johannesburg

[00:24:49] because he realizes this is the long haul.

[00:24:52] And finally he sends for Kastur.

[00:24:55] He says, I think I was wrong.

[00:24:58] We have to live over here.

[00:25:01] So do come back, bring the children with you too.

[00:25:04] Kastur doesn't wish to approve Tharilan

[00:25:09] because he's studying, he's in school.

[00:25:11] So she, Bapu also says, okay, let him be there.

[00:25:14] He's in boarding school in any case.

[00:25:16] I'll provide for him from here.

[00:25:19] But you come with the younger children

[00:25:21] and be with me, they'll grow up with us.

[00:25:25] Tushar, something significant happens after Kasturba returns.

[00:25:28] I'm talking about 1904 when she's already been there for a while.

[00:25:31] There's a plague outbreak.

[00:25:33] And Gandhi works tirelessly to help the people during that time.

[00:25:37] But so does Kasturba.

[00:25:40] What role did she play during this plague outbreak?

[00:25:44] You see, there was a plague outbreak.

[00:25:45] Now they're living in Johannesburg.

[00:25:47] Johannesburg is the booming mine town in South Africa.

[00:25:52] It's actually come into existence

[00:25:54] because of the gold and diamond mines over there.

[00:25:58] And like any other boom town, you know, it grew artificially fast.

[00:26:04] And it was mostly settlements of workers, laborers.

[00:26:09] They were the white miners.

[00:26:12] And then they were the Asian workers.

[00:26:15] And then they were the Zulu workers.

[00:26:17] And each of them had their own settlement.

[00:26:21] And the plague outbreak happened in the Asian settlement.

[00:26:25] And the whites were not really amenable because for them they were Kulis.

[00:26:31] So they said to hell with it, the Kulis are dying in their settlement.

[00:26:34] We'll confine them to their settlement.

[00:26:36] Let them die. We're not bothered about it.

[00:26:39] And it was miserable.

[00:26:41] There was no care for the ailing.

[00:26:44] There was no relief for the community, nothing.

[00:26:48] And this was brought to Bapu's notice

[00:26:51] because now he was the undisputed leader of the Asian community.

[00:26:55] So he was told of the misery and he said, no, no, we have to work.

[00:26:58] So he tries to lobby with the corporation, fails.

[00:27:04] And he said, okay, fine, then I'm going to do it.

[00:27:07] He's already done the war routine.

[00:27:10] So he has this medical knowledge.

[00:27:13] He said, okay, I'm going to do the relief.

[00:27:15] And he tells Kasturba, he informs Kasturba.

[00:27:19] He said, maybe for the next couple of days I won't come home.

[00:27:23] He said, why? What happened?

[00:27:25] He says, though there's been a outbreak of plague in the Indian settlement

[00:27:30] and nobody is providing relief.

[00:27:32] So I'm going to do it.

[00:27:35] And Bapu says, but if you're going to do it, then I'm going to do it too.

[00:27:39] And Bapu says, no, no, you are too precious.

[00:27:42] I'm not going to risk you.

[00:27:43] You're going to stay back home and look after the family.

[00:27:46] I said nothing doing.

[00:27:47] If it's safe for you to go work over there, it's as safe for me

[00:27:51] and I'm not going to stay back.

[00:27:53] I'm going to come and work also.

[00:27:56] So she defies Bapu and she says, we'll do what we can with the Indian Asian women.

[00:28:04] And she rallies the community and says, look, we've got to take care of our ailing brothers and sisters.

[00:28:11] And they move into the Asian settlement.

[00:28:14] There's no facilities.

[00:28:15] There's no isolation facility.

[00:28:17] There's no care facility.

[00:28:19] And the settlement because it is unorganized, it's filled in.

[00:28:23] And because the corporation doesn't bother, there's piles of garbage and rats and filth all over.

[00:28:30] And so the women start cleaning up the settlement.

[00:28:35] And then Bapu finds an abandoned home and he said, okay, we'll turn this into an infirmary and isolation center

[00:28:46] and bring all the afflicted over here to isolate them and take care of them.

[00:28:52] The town clerk objects to it that this is somebody else's private property.

[00:28:56] You can't take it over.

[00:28:57] It's abandoned.

[00:28:58] He says nothing doing.

[00:28:59] You can't take it.

[00:29:01] So Bapu said, then give me something else.

[00:29:02] So he finds an abandoned warehouse.

[00:29:06] He says, use this.

[00:29:07] It's a big warehouse, but it's abandoned.

[00:29:10] It's piled with junk.

[00:29:12] It's filthy.

[00:29:14] He says, you want to use this?

[00:29:16] We can't give you anything else.

[00:29:19] And Kastur sees this and she said, don't worry.

[00:29:22] Me and the women will clean it up and we'll make it good enough for your art purpose.

[00:29:28] And she gets a whole forge of women and they clean up the place.

[00:29:33] They remove all the junk.

[00:29:35] They scrub it clean.

[00:29:37] They set up the beds, mattresses and set up the whole place for it to be occupied

[00:29:44] as a isolation and nursing facility.

[00:29:50] After that, they set up a community kitchen for the families and the victims

[00:29:55] and the volunteers start doing that.

[00:29:57] And then they start cleaning up the community itself.

[00:30:01] They said, because the germs are breathing in the rats

[00:30:05] and the place is infested with rats, let's clean it up.

[00:30:09] While Bapu is nursing the ill and taking care of the dead,

[00:30:16] because that is also important.

[00:30:18] The administration wants to just dump them in mass graves and things.

[00:30:23] They said, no, even in death they deserve dignity.

[00:30:27] So we will do it in a dignified manner.

[00:30:30] So this is how the couple responds to unnatural calamity afflicting the society.

[00:30:37] This is also a part of their Satyagra against carelessness of the administration.

[00:30:43] Laptopathy of that.

[00:30:44] Laptopathy and carelessness of the administration.

[00:30:46] You can almost feel Kasturba segueing into Gandhi's activities

[00:30:52] and once she's understood the motivation for him to do what he does.

[00:30:57] The transition is very stark from somebody who is revolted

[00:31:04] by cleaning a chamber pot.

[00:31:07] To somebody who is taking care of the whole locality, cleanup and everything.

[00:31:12] That transformation is significant and it's voluntary.

[00:31:17] It's not as if Bapu put a gun to her head and said, you are my wife.

[00:31:20] I think in the chamber pot phase it was not voluntary.

[00:31:23] In the chamber pot phase it wasn't at all voluntary.

[00:31:27] But now she does it not only voluntarily but in face of the refusal of Bapu to permit her to do it.

[00:31:35] So shall let's jump forward a little now.

[00:31:38] I'm talking about the time when Gandhi has already created Phoenix settlement near Durban

[00:31:43] and he is also taken a vow of poverty, which means that he would earn money

[00:31:49] but not keep any that he didn't need.

[00:31:51] So it's not as if he would stop caring for his family or any such thing.

[00:31:54] Which also meant that he stopped sending money back to Rajkot to his brothers.

[00:32:01] What I read is that they suspected that Kasturba had put him up to it

[00:32:04] and almost as an act of revenge, they got Gandhi's son, old son, Harilal,

[00:32:10] married to his fiancee Gulab without them being present.

[00:32:14] How did the couple react?

[00:32:16] See this was a tragic development not a very surprising development

[00:32:21] because Bapu had initially invested in Indian opinion, which was a publication from Durban

[00:32:30] which was in the doldrums.

[00:32:32] So he started financing it because he realized that he needed a mouthpiece for his public movement.

[00:32:39] So he started financing it.

[00:32:40] After that, it so happened that the guy who was running the press and the publication

[00:32:47] said it's not worth my while.

[00:32:48] I'm going back to India.

[00:32:50] So Bapu took it over and then it led to many things.

[00:32:55] He decided that, you know, if it was on a self-contained community or community running it,

[00:33:02] it would run better.

[00:33:04] So he bought 100 acres of land in Phoenix.

[00:33:07] In the meantime, he had also read unto this last and that had a profound effect on him

[00:33:13] and he started realizing the futility of the commercial life and its greed and all that.

[00:33:21] And the seed of renunciation got planted, simplifying life, curtailing needs and things

[00:33:29] and that led eventually to embracing poverty because he had started.

[00:33:34] There was a restlessness in Bapu all his life.

[00:33:39] He was never satisfied by the stage that he had reached in life.

[00:33:46] He would reach it and as soon as he started stagnating, he would start resenting it

[00:33:52] and feel useless and worthless and things and he would want to go to the next level.

[00:33:59] And so this restlessness had also come into him.

[00:34:02] He was a very successful lawyer.

[00:34:05] He was a very successful leader.

[00:34:07] But that was it.

[00:34:08] What was more than that?

[00:34:10] There's nothing more than that.

[00:34:12] And now the challenge had to be internalized and so he started experimenting with life,

[00:34:19] reducing his needs, slowly becoming a non-consumer if you can say that

[00:34:27] and saying, let me challenge myself further.

[00:34:31] Let me give up this.

[00:34:33] I gave up getting my clothes laundered.

[00:34:36] I wash them myself.

[00:34:37] I ironed them myself.

[00:34:40] I gave up going to the barber.

[00:34:41] I give myself a haircut even though my colleagues make fun of my efforts.

[00:34:47] I'm persisting with that.

[00:34:49] Now let me go.

[00:34:50] Now let me embrace poverty and this when he was commercially one of the most

[00:34:57] successful of Asian lawyers, the most prosperous of Asian lawyers.

[00:35:02] He was not only taking care of his immediate family, his larger family,

[00:35:07] but even the community in South Africa.

[00:35:10] He was sustaining the Indian opinion.

[00:35:12] He was sustaining the Phoenix ashram.

[00:35:15] He had set it up.

[00:35:16] He was developing it through his own funding.

[00:35:19] He didn't give up his practice, but he said, whatever I earn,

[00:35:24] I'll consume the most the barest minimum of it.

[00:35:27] And so he wrote later a letter to his elder brother and he said, look,

[00:35:31] I have provided enough for the family.

[00:35:35] Now I've reached a stage where I'm embracing poverty.

[00:35:39] So it won't be possible for me to send you any more money.

[00:35:43] You will have to fend for yourself.

[00:35:45] The elder brother feels betrayed and he writes back and there is an

[00:35:50] acrimonious exchange of letters where he alleges that, you know,

[00:35:54] we made sacrifices for you and you're ungrateful and you're not

[00:35:58] considerate and all that.

[00:35:59] And Bapu patiently, patiently writes back and says, I'm grateful for what you did.

[00:36:05] But here is the statement of what I have done after that.

[00:36:11] And I think it balances off the sacrifices you made by what I have provided.

[00:36:17] So far and now I'm unable to do that.

[00:36:19] But the brothers think, you know, the wife is there with him

[00:36:24] and like all other wives, she wants all the money for herself.

[00:36:27] So she has instigated him to do that.

[00:36:30] So they start retaliating by manipulating Hari.

[00:36:36] Hari has fallen in love with a family, friends, daughter and with

[00:36:40] Bha and Bapu's consent, his betrothal was fixed.

[00:36:44] Then Bapu had said they're too young.

[00:36:47] I don't want them to suffer the same mistakes as I had to.

[00:36:50] So let them grow up and then they can get married.

[00:36:54] So they said, no, no, no, we'll get him married against the parents wishes

[00:36:59] and he'll become our ward.

[00:37:01] He's our ward.

[00:37:01] No, we'll get him married.

[00:37:04] So they get him married and Bapu is very offended by that.

[00:37:08] He actually says then that's not my son at all.

[00:37:12] He's it's a mistake that he's getting married and instead of blaming his

[00:37:15] brothers, he blames his son.

[00:37:18] He said he should have known better.

[00:37:20] He shouldn't have got married, but Hari was in love.

[00:37:25] And so it was very strange to expect him to say, no, no, no, I'll wait till

[00:37:30] I'm capable of having a wife and then I'll get married.

[00:37:34] So the tragedy began that way.

[00:37:37] The tragedy between the father and the son begins this way.

[00:37:42] But life goes on.

[00:37:44] Bapu is busy with his public persona in South Africa.

[00:37:48] Other issues in South Africa are multiplying demanding more and

[00:37:53] more of his time.

[00:37:54] So he's shuffling between Johannesburg, Durban, Pretoria, Phoenix.

[00:38:02] The family is in Phoenix, but Bapu is all over and by is growing

[00:38:07] into her role of being the mother.

[00:38:11] Castor is slowly transforming into bar from Castor to Castor by

[00:38:16] and she's enjoying that role.

[00:38:19] She's looking after the community.

[00:38:21] She's looking after the activities of Phoenix.

[00:38:24] She has her own heaven, a cocoon in which he and her family are living

[00:38:30] with an absentee husband, but somebody who is still providing.

[00:38:35] In fact, you know, when you say this evolution that happens and the

[00:38:40] influence that Castor wheels on Mohandas is also evident in

[00:38:45] what the operation that he undertook when the South African

[00:38:49] administration came into conflict with the Zulus.

[00:38:52] Again, there was a need for medical treatment for help in the

[00:38:56] form of a medical core.

[00:38:57] And what I read was that it was Castor that pushed Gandhi

[00:39:01] into helping.

[00:39:02] Could you tell us about that?

[00:39:04] You see, the colonial administration was into oppression.

[00:39:09] They believed that unless they oppressed the natives and

[00:39:13] the other races, their dominance would be threatened because

[00:39:16] you must remember that they oppressed were the majority.

[00:39:20] The Zulus were the biggest majority.

[00:39:23] The Indians were also large in number.

[00:39:25] The whites were shrinking.

[00:39:28] So unless they exerted influence greater than their

[00:39:33] numbers, they could not dominate.

[00:39:36] And so the only way they could do it was oppression.

[00:39:39] And so they thought of more and more ways of oppressing the

[00:39:43] people and oppressing the Zulus was imposing tax on them.

[00:39:49] And the straw that broke the camel's back was a hutment tax

[00:39:54] that was put up.

[00:39:55] So every establishment or home that the Zulus established

[00:40:00] they had to pay a tax.

[00:40:02] And that was unexpected acceptable to a people who

[00:40:07] were nobody who moved with their herds from place to place

[00:40:11] camped wherever they want established temporary villages

[00:40:15] wherever they wanted and lived off the land according to

[00:40:20] that the needs of their herds.

[00:40:22] And now suddenly every time they did that there to pay a

[00:40:25] tax.

[00:40:25] So there was a conflict and one of the Zulu chieftains

[00:40:29] killed the tax British tax collector and the British said

[00:40:34] my God, this is mutiny.

[00:40:36] So they said, No, we have to teach the sabbages a lesson

[00:40:40] and they created a command or force to go into the Zulu

[00:40:46] territories and teach the sabbages a lesson.

[00:40:49] Bapu who was fighting for his rights for the rights of

[00:40:53] the Asians believed that again he has he had to show

[00:40:57] that he was a loyal citizen to enhance his demand for

[00:41:03] equal rights.

[00:41:05] And so he establishes raises a volunteer Corps and ambulance

[00:41:09] Corps this time and says, Look, we served you in the war

[00:41:13] war.

[00:41:15] And you acknowledged it now we'll do it in the Zulu

[00:41:18] uprising also.

[00:41:19] And so he creates this ambulance corps and he moves

[00:41:22] into the Zulu homelands with the Commando expedition

[00:41:26] force.

[00:41:28] And there what he experiences and witnesses brings about

[00:41:34] a change in his outlook till then he believed that the

[00:41:38] British were civilized gentlemanly and bound by legal

[00:41:44] practices people.

[00:41:47] But then he sees the savage face of the colonial

[00:41:50] British in the way they brutally oppress the

[00:41:55] natives, the Africans, the Zulus and he sees the

[00:42:00] plunder and the massacres and the rape and pillage and he

[00:42:06] sickened beyond expectation and from serving the British

[00:42:11] he starts serving the wounded Zulu taking care of them.

[00:42:16] He also sees that the British doctors, the British

[00:42:20] Christian doctors are refusing to treat the wounded

[00:42:24] and ailing Zulus and he tells him that you've taken

[00:42:27] an oath.

[00:42:29] You can't do this race should not matter to you, but when he

[00:42:33] sees that they're not doing it, he says, Okay, I'll provide

[00:42:37] relief to them.

[00:42:39] I'll nurse them.

[00:42:40] I'll take care of them.

[00:42:41] So he raises field hospitals wherever he is taking care of

[00:42:45] the wounded, you know, giving performing the last rights

[00:42:50] with respect for the dead Zulus reestablishing

[00:42:54] their villages and settling the dis-housed over there and he

[00:42:58] spends all his time, but he also witnesses the horror of the

[00:43:03] battlefield in the wake of the expedition force and he's

[00:43:08] very disillusioned and again that thought comes back to his

[00:43:12] mind that the violence that men perform on women through

[00:43:21] their lust is as savage and brutal as what I'm witnessing.

[00:43:26] And he says, if I have to fight this savagery and brutality,

[00:43:30] then I have to cure myself of the savagery and brutality.

[00:43:34] He's been struggling with celibacy for a long time.

[00:43:38] He's made the attempts before also and he succumbed to his

[00:43:42] love for Kastur which he starts terming as lust.

[00:43:48] It's natural, but he somehow links that and he's struggling

[00:43:52] with that and when he takes the pledge, she said, okay, I'll

[00:43:57] help you.

[00:43:58] But when he comes back to her because of his attraction for

[00:44:02] her, she doesn't rebuke him or say, hey, you taken a pledge.

[00:44:05] Don't come to me.

[00:44:07] She said, yes, he says, I love him too.

[00:44:10] He's my husband.

[00:44:11] So she accepts him.

[00:44:13] But when he is witnessing the Zulu uprising, he finally links

[00:44:19] his lust with the violence of a dominant male.

[00:44:25] And he says, no, now I have to put an end to it.

[00:44:29] I must stop and he remembers the last two deliveries and

[00:44:33] the effect because when he delivers, Devadas, the doctor

[00:44:38] and the nurse both are unable to reach in time.

[00:44:41] So he single-handedly delivers his youngest son and he sees

[00:44:47] the agony of why he experiences that himself.

[00:44:51] And he says, there's no difference between the brutality

[00:44:55] of my lust on my wife from the brutality of the savage

[00:45:00] British soldier on these poor Zulus and on the battlefield

[00:45:04] he takes a vow.

[00:45:05] He says, now I will practice celibacy and I will treat

[00:45:10] my relationship with my wife beyond the physical.

[00:45:14] It'll be purely an emotional and relationship without any

[00:45:19] physical aspect to it.

[00:45:21] And he comes back home and he tells Bob and boss is fine

[00:45:25] with me.

[00:45:26] I don't treat it as lust.

[00:45:28] I treat it as natural.

[00:45:30] But if that is your decision, it's fine with me.

[00:45:33] So to show I'm going to jump forward a little again.

[00:45:36] This is when the South African administration declares

[00:45:39] that only those weddings solemnized under Christian

[00:45:42] rights will be considered legal.

[00:45:44] Now in this while it's well documented what Gandhi did,

[00:45:48] very few know that Kasturba also took a proactive stand

[00:45:51] and decided she too would go to jail if needed.

[00:45:54] So she opposed it and she went to jail.

[00:45:56] So tell us about that particular phase.

[00:45:59] How did she spend her time in jail and what kind of

[00:46:01] effect it had on her?

[00:46:04] Ashraf I will come to that but before that there's one

[00:46:07] small incident that I would like to narrate before we go

[00:46:10] to that and that is now you see this is the decade when

[00:46:14] the Satyagra in South Africa is into top gear.

[00:46:17] The Satyagra is spreading.

[00:46:19] It's becoming continuous.

[00:46:22] Kastur from Phoenix witnesses the jail visits of her husband,

[00:46:29] her eldest son Harilal has joined them too.

[00:46:32] Her eldest son then Manilal also they're regularly going

[00:46:37] into prison performing Satyagras coming out going back

[00:46:40] into prison.

[00:46:41] The Satyagras continue Gabapu is performs a Satyagra

[00:46:46] against the registration act.

[00:46:48] Then there is a understanding with Swatts and so he

[00:46:53] withdraws his general spots you mean who's the head of

[00:46:56] the provincial administration.

[00:46:57] Yeah, the colonial administration and he says okay now

[00:47:01] that we've reached understanding I'll register.

[00:47:04] He angers the community.

[00:47:07] He's assaulted beaten up but he registers but then Swatts

[00:47:12] betrays him and Babu once again launches a Satyagra and

[00:47:17] burns the passes that incident in Jobar a British

[00:47:23] journalist termed it as the South African Boston tea party.

[00:47:29] It's a very vivid incident.

[00:47:31] I won't go into the details but the Satyagra in South

[00:47:35] Africa is becoming dominant.

[00:47:36] Babu is becoming more and more its face.

[00:47:39] The lawyer Gandhi's activities are shrinking.

[00:47:43] The activist grantees becoming the dominant aspect

[00:47:48] in the whole thing by is witnessing all this.

[00:47:53] And it's also having an effect on her health.

[00:47:57] Her health is deteriorating.

[00:47:59] She develops menstrual problem gynecological problems excessive

[00:48:05] bleeding during her periods and it so happens that once when

[00:48:09] he Babu is in prison.

[00:48:12] She becomes serious and people think that she won't survive.

[00:48:16] So Morris West who is a Babu's friend and was the editor

[00:48:21] publisher of Indian Opinion writes to Babu in prison

[00:48:26] and says that you know you should seek a pardon from the

[00:48:30] colonial government and file a mercy petition.

[00:48:34] Because you need clemency you need to be released immediately

[00:48:38] from prison because your wife is dying and you have to be

[00:48:41] with her and in reply to that Babu writes a letter to bar

[00:48:46] it's very poignant and he tells her he said I've heard

[00:48:49] that you're very ill.

[00:48:51] I've been told that you are serious and you may not

[00:48:53] survive.

[00:48:55] And I've been told that I must seek mercy and clemency and

[00:49:00] come to you.

[00:49:01] He says Kastur I know you will understand.

[00:49:05] I can't ask for mercy.

[00:49:06] I can't ask for clemency because that could be a betrayal

[00:49:11] of the cause I'm fighting and although you are very important

[00:49:16] to me in life.

[00:49:18] But the cause is not trivial either.

[00:49:20] I cannot betray it.

[00:49:23] If I lose you now and I'm not with you.

[00:49:27] It will be my lifelong regret.

[00:49:30] But even with that I will live with that but I will not

[00:49:33] betray the cause and I know you will understand me.

[00:49:38] And if it makes any difference to you Kastur I promise

[00:49:43] you that I will never remarry again.

[00:49:46] Even if you're not with me physically you will continue

[00:49:51] to be my wife and I will cherish you.

[00:49:54] But forgive me I won't come back.

[00:49:56] I won't plead for mercy.

[00:49:58] This is a very important incident in their lives because

[00:50:03] now there is an intimacy that is deeper than that physical

[00:50:08] intimacy that the couple shared where their physical

[00:50:12] separation has stopped mattering to them.

[00:50:16] Their emotional presence becomes more important and all

[00:50:21] this was happening in the interim.

[00:50:25] The conflict with Harilal starts reaches a flashpoint.

[00:50:28] The break happens.

[00:50:30] Baal lives through all this witnessing all this and it

[00:50:35] comes up to what you mentioned the marriage act, the

[00:50:39] final straw on the camel's back.

[00:50:42] Now Ba is living with the notion that her whole family

[00:50:46] is sacrificing for the Satyagra.

[00:50:49] Her husband and two elder sons are going to prison.

[00:50:53] They're almost like jailbirds and she realized that one fine

[00:50:57] day I will have to participate in this also.

[00:51:01] I'll have to go to prison myself maybe and then one

[00:51:04] day that day arrives.

[00:51:07] Bapu comes back home on one of his infrequent

[00:51:10] visits to Phoenix and in his usual manner he comes home

[00:51:14] and he says, you know, Kastur, you're no longer my wife.

[00:51:19] And as usual, Baaf lads up, what madness is this?

[00:51:23] How dare you say I'm no longer your wife?

[00:51:26] Yeah, I'm not saying it.

[00:51:28] It's the South African Justice of the Supreme Court said

[00:51:32] that then who is he to tell me I'm not your wife?

[00:51:37] How does he know?

[00:51:39] Didn't I get married to you?

[00:51:42] He said, I know you're my wife.

[00:51:43] But he says that legally that marriage is not recognized.

[00:51:48] Only marriages in church in the Christian manner is recognized.

[00:51:52] Yeah, maybe he's a mad guy.

[00:51:55] He doesn't realize what the hell does he know?

[00:51:57] I have married in front of the fire.

[00:52:00] I've taken a pledge to be your wife.

[00:52:02] You've taken a pledge to be my husband.

[00:52:04] We went round the fire seven times.

[00:52:08] We took the seven vows and for me nothing more than that is

[00:52:13] required to cause, solemnize the marriage.

[00:52:16] But he said, no, you are legally you are my kept.

[00:52:19] You're a whore living in sin with me.

[00:52:22] He said, you've lost it completely, haven't you?

[00:52:25] He said, what difference does it make whether I lost it or not?

[00:52:29] The British are going to consider you to be a whore.

[00:52:32] You're no longer a wife.

[00:52:34] Bar says, so what?

[00:52:36] So if it angers you fight against it, no?

[00:52:41] And then Bar realizes that she's been manipulated once more.

[00:52:45] She said, oh, then why couldn't you just come out up front and tell me

[00:52:50] that you expect me to fight this battle?

[00:52:52] Why did it have to be so round about her way?

[00:52:56] Bar said, I don't want you to fight because I want you to fight.

[00:53:00] I want you to fight only if you feel that it is worth fighting for.

[00:53:06] So Bar says, you know, you thought I wouldn't think this was worth fighting for?

[00:53:11] My marriage, my identity is under challenge in being threatened and

[00:53:17] you thought I'd just accept it.

[00:53:19] You don't know me?

[00:53:21] Your father smiles.

[00:53:22] He knows his wife.

[00:53:23] He knows the outcome of the whole argument, but he is manipulated her into

[00:53:29] taking the decision herself.

[00:53:32] He has been the manipulator, but like the chamber pot, he hasn't forced the

[00:53:36] decision on her.

[00:53:37] Said the decision you have to take.

[00:53:40] I'm telling you that you have been sinned against.

[00:53:43] Now that day has come for you like what had happened to me on Peter

[00:53:47] marriage workstation where the sin had been committed and I had left.

[00:53:52] I was left to decide myself.

[00:53:55] The sin has been committed by on you.

[00:53:57] You have been thrown out of the marriage.

[00:54:00] Accept it or fight it is your decision.

[00:54:04] And Bar said as if I was going to accept it and she takes the step.

[00:54:10] She leads a contingent of women and men from Phoenix to defy the British

[00:54:17] and unlike all the other Satyagras where the administration was pre-worn

[00:54:23] this time the administration is not warned and they travel across the

[00:54:29] state province limits without identifications and without their passes

[00:54:36] knowing that on the border, they will be arrested.

[00:54:39] And they are arrested.

[00:54:41] And since they don't reveal that identity, the border guards don't

[00:54:46] recognize Mrs Gandhi and so she is arrested and produce in front of

[00:54:51] a magistrate.

[00:54:53] And at the time of sentencing when she reveals her identity to the prison

[00:54:58] warden, it's realized that this is Mrs.

[00:55:01] Gandhi.

[00:55:02] You know, Mrs.

[00:55:03] Gandhi is now in prison and the whole contingent her younger son

[00:55:08] Ram Dass is also marched off with the men and bar goes into prison.

[00:55:12] It's a very brutal imprisonment.

[00:55:16] She has they try to psychologically break her.

[00:55:20] They house her with common prisoners in filthy cells.

[00:55:27] They appeal.

[00:55:28] They said at least clean the cells, but it's all filthy.

[00:55:32] Those people laugh.

[00:55:33] So they finally ask for cleaning equipment and they start cleaning

[00:55:38] up their cells and what the jailer does is every time they kill clean

[00:55:42] one cell, he shifts them to another cell.

[00:55:46] And I says, okay, slowly they clean up the whole prison.

[00:55:51] Then the diet they're given slop over there.

[00:55:56] The women don't even know whether it is edible, whether it's vegetarian.

[00:56:03] It's many a times a transit food and bar fights to be given food

[00:56:08] according to the jail manuals and finally forces the jailer to

[00:56:14] provide fruit for them.

[00:56:16] So the Satyagra is happening inside the prison also.

[00:56:20] And Ashraf, this is something that troubles me a lot because I went

[00:56:27] to visit the fort prison in Johannesburg where Bapu was in prison

[00:56:35] and where almost all the South African leaders were in prison.

[00:56:38] Now it's a museum, but I visited it and they've kept it in

[00:56:42] the way manner it used to be.

[00:56:45] And what had happened was from the adjacent building, a photo

[00:56:51] journalist had captured pictures of the treatment of the prisoners

[00:56:56] in the fort prison.

[00:56:58] And one of the practices was that when the prisoners were

[00:57:01] brought into the prison, they were made to strip in the open

[00:57:05] courtyard and left standing naked over there for hours

[00:57:12] together and then they were subjected to multiple body

[00:57:15] cavity searches.

[00:57:18] And then they were given prison gab and they were made to live

[00:57:21] and the living conditions were extremely brutal also.

[00:57:26] Criminals and political prisoners were kept together.

[00:57:30] Their food was horrible.

[00:57:31] It was to be, you know, slop and unidentifiable ingredients

[00:57:38] in them and things like that.

[00:57:40] I shudder to imagine how bar must have been treated and how

[00:57:46] she would have kept her sanity and her dignity intact in those

[00:57:50] conditions.

[00:57:52] When I saw that, you know, I cried because the image that I

[00:57:58] saw was bar.

[00:58:00] I can't even imagine what she must have suffered and she

[00:58:05] was subjected to severe hardship and labor.

[00:58:09] She was put to work in the laundry section.

[00:58:12] She was put to work in the tailoring section and by the

[00:58:16] time she finished her sentence, Bapu came to receive her

[00:58:22] at the gate of the forecast women's prison to when she

[00:58:27] was released and when they she walked out of with the group

[00:58:31] of convicts.

[00:58:34] Nobody recognized her because the six months in prison had

[00:58:38] aged her beyond her time.

[00:58:41] And from that day onwards, the therapy enthusiastic beautiful

[00:58:46] Kasturba had turned into a old shriveled up emaciated woman.

[00:58:55] Even Bapu didn't recognize her and when he realized this

[00:58:59] was a Kastur, the description in this book in my parents book

[00:59:06] is.

[00:59:08] But Papu put his hands on bar shoulder and there were tears

[00:59:12] streaming down his cheeks because he realized that you know

[00:59:17] his he lost his wife almost the woman who had come out of

[00:59:21] the prison was a woman who had been subjected to severe

[00:59:27] torture.

[00:59:28] There was no physical torture but the mental torture.

[00:59:33] And that's where Bapu first referred to her as bar.

[00:59:40] He was he was acknowledging the fact that that one single act

[00:59:45] of Satyagra had stolen a march over whatever he had done till

[00:59:51] then because the defense of Kasturba and the tenacity

[00:59:59] that she had shown in surviving that brutal imprisonment was

[01:00:06] much more than the many prison stints that he had endured

[01:00:11] till then.

[01:00:13] And that unfortunately that is the bar that we have chosen

[01:00:19] to ignore completely and it wasn't just back in India that

[01:00:25] she bloomed into that persona.

[01:00:30] She had she had become an equally important leader of the Satyagra

[01:00:36] in South Africa itself and she had made the sacrifices in

[01:00:40] South Africa also.

[01:00:44] And this was the ultimate sacrifice that she made for the

[01:00:50] cause of the community in South Africa.

[01:00:54] And this was also the time when they finally realized that

[01:00:59] the Satyagra in South Africa their involvement in the Satyagra

[01:01:04] in South Africa was over and they were coming back to India

[01:01:08] this time for good.

[01:01:10] So sure that was tremendously moving once again and again

[01:01:15] like I said earlier just to repeat myself immensely important

[01:01:19] insight into the woman who was Mahatma Gandhi's constant

[01:01:23] his true constant with this we conclude part four of the

[01:01:27] six part series on Kasthurba Gandhi the Mahatma's wife and

[01:01:30] whose contribution to the freedom movement we are seeking

[01:01:33] to know better in the next part.

[01:01:36] We will discuss Gandhi and Kasthurba returning to India

[01:01:38] for good and her role in the freedom struggle.