The Franz Tost Exclusive | The Man Who Made F1 Champions

[00:00:00] Hello everyone, hello to all the Formula 1 fans. My name is Franz Tost and I was the team principal at Scuderia Toro Rosso, later being called Scuderia Alpha Tauri. And just shortly about me, I studied sports science in Innsbruck and in Vienna. I was racing by myself in Formula 4 and Formula 3.

[00:00:24] And after I finished the study, I worked at Walter Lechner. I was responsible in the racing school. I was instructor. Then I was team manager in Formula 4, Formula 3, Opel Lotus, Porsche and so on. And it was a very interesting time where I learned a lot. Later, I went to Germany to Willy Weber.

[00:00:48] He was the manager in those days of Michael Schumacher and Ralf Schumacher. I was responsible for Ralf Schumacher. It was a fantastic time. And we won in Formula 3. We won, for example, also the Macau Grand Prix in Formula 3. Then we were together in Japan for one year. And from Willy Weber, they called me to BMW.

[00:01:16] When they did Formula 1 with Williams, I was responsible for all the track organization. And from BMW, Williams, Dietrich Mateschitz called me to come to FNZ to take over the new team he bought. It was the former Minardi team. And he just called me and said, Franz, now we talk Italian. You go to Italy.

[00:01:40] And I want that you educate the young drivers from the Red Bull driver pool. And I want them to win races and championships. That's it. Just go now. And this is what I did. It was very easy, everything. Franz, I have no words on how to respond to what you have just said. Those beautiful couple of minutes. Such a humble, but such an inspiring introduction.

[00:02:09] Every time I'm going to have a guest, I'm going to play this out and say, please do or try and do as Franz has said. It was so beautiful. I know Somal has shared his story. You have shared yours. I have a story with you, like I was telling you on email. 2011 Singapore Grand Prix. Lots of question marks about the Indian Grand Prix, whether it'll happen or no. And we all met in Bernie Eccleston's office at the circuit in Singapore. I was there with Dr. Vijay Malia and I'm so glad Dr. Marco has reconnected us.

[00:02:38] But I have to start by asking you this. And I know this is actually Somal's question. But, you know, when now the team is called Visa Cash App Racing Bulls, you have to be honest. What do you deep down inside your heart still call the team? No, that's fine. Because Visa brings money. Cash App brings money. And, you know, you have to do something for the sponsors.

[00:03:02] I am very happy about this name because this shows to me that the team is on a very good financial or in a very good financial situation. And, you know, money is one of the most important parts in Formula One. And if you have money, you can operate very good. And therefore, I am really happy that the team is in such a good shape.

[00:03:28] And apart from this, also the car from the racing bulls is very, very competitive. And Isaac Hacha showed this in nearly all the races, but especially now in Japan when he finished on the eighth position, which was fantastic because you never must forget he was there the first time. And that means he, from the driver's side, did a really good job.

[00:03:54] But also the team did a fantastic job to provide him with such a competitive car. And it's a car that your team has delivered. It must be such a proud feeling, not just with that, but also with so many of your boys doing so well in Formula One these days. Carlos is doing so well. Alex was there with you briefly as well. But Max Verstappen, come on, that must make you feel so proud. The kind of drive he had in Japan.

[00:04:23] What do you make of it? What do you make of his weekend and what he's delivering nowadays? I must say that Max is an extraordinary driver. And what he showed the last weekend in Suzuka was brilliant. You know, this qualifying lap, I think this was one of the best qualifying laps you ever have seen. In every way, we were totally on the limit and taking out most of the car.

[00:04:51] And then the race, how clever he drove the race. He knew where to save the tires, to do the tire management. He knew where to push, not to give the McLaren a chance to come within one second close to him, that they have DRS. And all these kind of things which he did during the race was really fantastic.

[00:05:19] Also after the pit stop, when he stayed on his line and when he said, look, I am Max. I am the world champion. You just stay behind me. It's unbelievable. And this is, these are the drivers, the champions. And they are made out of this wood, I would say. They are special.

[00:05:43] And it's also so special because many years ago, it was in one of your cars that Max Verstappen actually drove a Formula One car for the first time at Suzuka 2014. And back then he was what, 15, 16? I want to know what Dr. Marco told you about putting a 16-year-old in your Formula One car. And what your reaction honestly was. Were you like, who is this guy? No, no, I was pushing for this. Oh.

[00:06:10] I knew Max from karting and from Formula 3. And the first time I met Max was at the Nürburgring. I think it was 2012 or something like this with his father. And I knew Joost quite well because he was driving with Michael Schumacher together at Benetton. And as I worked with waiver management many times, joined him to the Formula One races.

[00:06:38] And therefore, I knew Joost was Dappen. And then Dr. Marco made negotiations with him because it was clear for all of us that Max is a real special driver. However, it was even more clear for us after the race in Germany at the Norrisring. It was a wet race in Formula 3.

[00:07:04] And the lap times are around 58, 57 seconds. And Max was one and a half second faster than the rest of the field. Yeah. He was flying under wet conditions. And this shows you that he is an extraordinary good driver. This remembered me also to Michael Schumacher at the Salzburg Ring.

[00:07:32] This was, I think, around 86, 87, something like this in Formula 4. It was also very wet. And Michael was flying there. He was far ahead of the rest of the field. Because I remember that Willie afterwards came to me and said, what do you think about Michael? He said, hey, take him.

[00:07:57] He is the best share you can take because he is unbelievably fast. And it was the same with Max. If there are such races in very difficult conditions, you can see who is able to drive a car, who is skilled to drive a car fast, and who will have a good future. Yeah. It's interesting you compare Max and Michael, because both of them are doing things.

[00:08:23] Both of them, in fact, have done things in their career that we say that only they can do. Like, even this weekend, we look at that qualifying lap and say, only Max Verstappen can pull that off. But do you see any other similarities between Max and Michael, apart from the fact that they're so fast, so determined, and also very tough drivers to be teammates against? Yeah, look.

[00:08:45] All these superstars, they have the same, let me say, the same trait, or nearly the same trait. What are the factors from a superstar to another driver, to a normal driver? First of all, it's the talent. These drivers are very high-skilled and talented.

[00:09:12] The second point is their passion. They are so passionate. 365 days a year, they live for motorsport. Nothing is more important for them than this job, motorsport, Formula One, whatever. And therefore, they are very, very selfish. And to live with such a person together is not easy.

[00:09:40] To have them as a teammate is also not easy. The third point, they are very disciplined. I remember back if you said to Sebastian Vettel, look, do this in the physical training or mental training or in any other part, he immediately did it. This was the same with other top drivers. I observed this.

[00:10:07] These drivers do everything to become successful. Ah, they take care for the physical training. They take care also for any mental training. They take care for the nutrition. They take care for simulator sessions. They are prepared very well. They take care about the car, about their seat. They take care about their team, their mechanics.

[00:10:36] They know so many things about their mechanics. When they have the birthday or family stories, they have a really good link and connection to them. And they do everything for them because they know they prepare their cars. They do everything generally for a person from whom they expect that this person will help them.

[00:11:03] And the next point is they are very creative or innovative. That means they study their opponents. They study the other drivers. Where are the weaknesses? What do they have to do to beat them? And if you put this all into consideration, means that they really do nothing else than be concentrated on motorsport, especially on Formula One.

[00:11:32] And that's the same for all of them. There's no difference. I don't know a world champ who won two or three world champion titles who does not care about these four points which I just mentioned. And we see that so often, particularly in Suzuka, about the awareness Max had.

[00:11:56] I was amazed to hear him talk about Lando accelerating a bit too early and that he pressed the pit limit too early. That was fascinating. How do you as a Formula One driver notice so much? That's the sign of a world champion, clearly. Exactly. You know, this is, you know, I have different periods for the drivers. I'm talking now about a young driver.

[00:12:24] The first period is the car is driving with him, not the driver is driving the car. The car is driving with him. Drivers do not want to hear this, but they are just passengers in there. The second period is they understand a little bit about the mechanical grip. Third period is they understand a little bit about the aerodynamic grip.

[00:12:50] Fourth period is they start to understand the tires, which is quite complicated. And the fifth period is they can observe their environment. For example, Senna sometimes told in Monaco when he is going up to the casino, he sees on the screen where he is driving or where are the others.

[00:13:13] You know, that means these drivers have such a good control about everything. They are not overloaded by the speed. They know immediately what's going on with them. Coming up back to Max, he immediately saw that maybe Lando accelerated a little bit too early and was not in the pit limiter. And therefore, this is something very, very, very, very, very, very special.

[00:13:43] He says only top drivers have this. And as high as skilled a driver is, as fast as he goes through all these different periods. Can you tell this about a driver from the moment you see them? Like you told with Max that race at the Norris Ring, that you just knew that this guy has it.

[00:14:07] How much time does it take for you to understand that this driver has it, that level of understanding or that level of skill that he could be a future world champion? Before you take a driver, you observe him. Max observed in CARD three years and then also in Formula 3. Not only Max, also other drivers.

[00:14:31] And then, of course, you get the feeling about this driver because you don't work directly together with this driver. And then the next step is if he is being chosen by Dr. Marco for the Red Bull Young Driver Programme, that he is doing Formula 4 or Formula 3 or Formula 2.

[00:14:54] That means if they do Formula 3 or Formula 2, you see them all the race weekends together with Formula 1. And then you can get a real good picture about the abilities and skills of the drivers. And then once it's being decided that they come to us for doing a test with us, then I observe the drivers quite well. It starts when they come to the factory. First of all, are they in time?

[00:15:24] For second, we always go then to make the seat. And the seat fitting is a first very important step where you can a little bit get a feeling about the driver. As more sensible he is with his seat, as better he is. And I remember back that we made seats for Vettel or for Max five, six times.

[00:15:52] That means, you know, the seat is the direct connection between the driver and the car. Therefore, it's so important. If people from you are going skiing or so, I don't think so. But it's the same with the shoes for the ski racers. The shoe must really fit to the foot.

[00:16:17] So, and how they ask the questions, what they want to know. And then when you go with them through the factory to ask them what they think about this. And then they ask questions, which questions do they ask? How interested they are in all these points. And then you go out, you do the first test with them.

[00:16:43] And then you see, for example, with Max, we went to the test. And it was really unbelievable how fast he got used. The test was in Adria. It's close to our factory. Used to the speed. He didn't have any problem with the speed. And that's decisive, you know, with the acceleration. B with the brakes.

[00:17:10] And he immediately got familiar with the car. And this was then the reason why we decided to take Max into the team already for the free practice session in Suzuka. Because everybody criticized us. And other journalists came to me and said, you are totally stupid. He is just 17 years old. He even doesn't have a driver license.

[00:17:38] And he is racing with the best drivers in Formula 1, even if it's currently only the free practice. But he will do this next year. And then he did Suzuka without a problem. He did it also in Sao Paulo and the rest of the season. And this is how we wanted him to get familiar with the car. And it worked really very, very well.

[00:18:03] I particularly enjoyed that one point you said about asking the right questions. And it's got me thinking. Because Kunal and I both have seen so many young drivers in our time. But that gets us so curious about what sort of questions do the champions like Max and Sebastian actually ask? What are they thinking of the moment they're getting into a seat fit or adapting to a car? What's on their mind?

[00:18:29] So Sebastian Vettel asked always very in detail. He wanted to know every small details. Max wants to know details, but only if there are problems.

[00:18:45] At the beginning, Max just wants to have a good seat, sit in the car, go with the car, and then find out where are deficiencies of the car and how can we get rid of these deficiencies. Then he gets us well into the details. But from the beginning onwards, he is not the person who wants to know everything in detail. If it works, it's okay for him.

[00:19:15] Vettel is a little bit another type of person. And these are some small differences, but not huge ones. And when you get a young driver, the first time to the team, then I always have or had very long conversations.

[00:19:38] Because I wanted to find out what is the motivation for his choice to do racing. And, you know, in former times, I met many young drivers, especially in Formula 3 when I started working in motorsport. And I thought, wow, they are so fast. They are really so good. They must do it in Formula 1.

[00:20:07] But they didn't do it. And then I thought by myself, why didn't they do it? What didn't I recognize? And after talking to the drivers and after looking to the history, I found out their motivation was not coming from themselves. It was not an intrinsic motivation.

[00:20:36] No, it was coming from the outside. And then I created the word Kokard Papa because there were many fathers who pushed their sons to do racing. Because when they were young fathers, they wanted to do racing, but they couldn't do it either for financial reasons or whatever. But now the son has to do it. But it was not once.

[00:21:06] It was a couple of times that they recognized, hey, the son does not want it really. He does it because the father pushed him for this. And this is very important. You have to find out this. Because the sons of the Kokard Papas, most often you can forget. It's another story.

[00:21:27] If a young driver, for example, Hamilton or Rosberg or so, their fathers looked also to them and supported them with the car. But it was coming from themselves. It was their personal wish to do it. It was not that the father said, you have to do it. And that's a very, very, for me, it's a very important point.

[00:21:53] And when I meet the drivers, I always ask them about the history and how did they come to motor racing? What's the story behind? And all these things are, for me, personally important to find out whether a driver can do it or whether a driver maybe will come to Formula One, but he will not become a superstar.

[00:22:23] Hmm. And there's so many factors, right? The way they've been raised, the way their environment has been, the teams they've raced for, the people they've surrounded themselves in, which is why I'm particularly fascinated with the structure that Red Bull had and the role you played there. Because you were their first point of contact into Formula One for so many drivers.

[00:22:49] I mean, off the top of my head, I can think of Sebastian, Max, Pierre, Yuki. And then these are just a few. There's so many others who maybe didn't reach the same heights as well. It's, how do you firstly, actually, what's the first thing you do with a rookie that comes to Formula One? When you see them coming through, what sort of conversation do you have with him? What sort of chat do you have with him? What's your approach to it?

[00:23:13] As I just mentioned, I sit together with him in the office in the morning. Then we go for lunch together and we talk about everything. Yeah. I want to know how he came to motorsport. What was the reason for this decision? Which hobbies does he have? And what does he do in his leisure time? How many times does he go karting?

[00:23:45] And which driver does he admire most? Then what does he know about our team? And all these kinds of questions. And then it's, you know, it's individually different. There is not a certain way you can go with young drivers. A shamer, A. No, you must be flexible.

[00:24:11] You must find out how to work together with these drivers. Where are their strengths? Where are their deficiencies? And on this side, you have to work with them. And for example, Yuki, when he came to us, his English was not really good. His discipline was also a little bit fragile.

[00:24:37] And therefore, we decided to give him, we decided first of all, that he has to come to the team to answer. And then he had a daily schedule. For example, in the morning, first is the breakfast at 7.30, something like this. Then from 9 to 10.30, physical training in the gym. Then meeting with the engineers. Then lunchtime. Then English lesson, two hours.

[00:25:07] Then meeting with the engineers. Then going a second time into the gym. Because the driver has to do this twice a day. And then dinner and that's it. That means it's really a very tight plant. But there are other drivers, you do it in a different way.

[00:25:29] It's not a certain system you can always go with. No, you have to be flexible. You have to get a correct feeling for the driver. How you can support him. How you can help him. And these are the main important factors. I love that.

[00:25:54] Because Yuki, I suppose, when he first must have come to you, would have been only 19, right? And only two years in Europe. Because he moved to Europe at 17. Must be very raw at that time. Yeah, I must say. Yuki, for me, is a really, really very high-skilled driver. He was a little bit unlucky in Suzuka in qualifying too, I must say. But he will show a good performance, I'm convinced, for the rest of the season.

[00:26:26] And, you know, he came to Europe, as you correct said. Being a young boy, 17, 18 years old. Just doing Formula 3. Not knowing the racetracks. Not knowing the culture. And, you know, the Japanese culture is completely different to the European. And he immediately was successful. He won races in Formula 3. And then we decided to bring him to Formula 2.

[00:26:56] In Formula 2, he won as well races. He was fighting for the championship. And then immediately into Formula 1. You know, this was really, really a very tough program. Also, for the mental side of Yuki. Because this is not so easy to learn all these things in this short period of time. And Yuki is a clever guy. He could manage it. He could do it.

[00:27:23] And therefore, I am convinced that he will have a successful future in Formula 1. Actually, a question on Yuki. Some people say that he took too much time to get to the level that he has. But maybe that's just because he had so much more to learn also, considering where he's come from and the kind of career he's had before that. Do you think he's peaking at the right time, finally? Yeah, he is not prepared.

[00:27:52] And you must not forget once more. He did only one year Formula 3 in a completely new country, in a completely new culture. He did only one year Formula 2. And then he joined us to Formula 1. And he was also last year already measured enough to do successful races.

[00:28:20] And he did it because he scored nearly all the points for the team. And this year, at the beginning of the season, he was really very good. Remember, back in Melbourne, he was on the sixth, seventh place all the time. Yeah, until they didn't call him in to change the tyres. And also last year in Sao Paulo, when it was wet, he was on the, I think, on the fourth position or something like this. Also doing a very good job.

[00:28:49] No, no, he is a real skilled driver. And if they take care for him, they will have a lot of fun and success with him. I like how you said if they take care of him. And, you know, the outside always feels like Red Bull doesn't take care of the drivers. But all the drivers I've spoken to actually speak volumes of how the program takes care of them even after they have left Formula 1. But, you know, France, you mentioned something very interesting, Yuki being mature.

[00:29:18] And you also said in the build-up to Japan that Liam is 100 years or Yuki is 100 years ahead of Liam when it comes to talent. Are you able to sort of expand on that given that recent swap that has happened between the two? And, for example, does Christian Horner and Dr. Marco still ask you for your advice before swapping drivers between teams? We discussed it last year. Okay.

[00:29:46] And I made it clear for me. I said, look, take Yuki. He is faster and he is more experienced. Therefore, for me, it's absolutely no question. But for whatever reason, they decided for Liam. And the result, we know.

[00:30:11] And you also said, you know, in one of your, this was on ORF TV, the interview that I am referencing to, you said Yuki sometimes gets emotional in the car and he needs to find a consistent pace with his emotions as well. Can you expand on what does that mean and sort of how does that impact his performance? Look, a driver gets upset in the car because something happens.

[00:30:39] Either information from the team, which is not correct, or something with another driver. And I explain always to our drivers, it doesn't help you if you are shouting on the radio. Because it takes away concentration. It takes away energy for nothing. Because this happened already.

[00:31:08] And therefore, just be quiet. Don't say anything. And then after the race, you can sort it out either with your direct rival that you talk to him or with the team. But don't do it during the race. During the race, it doesn't help you. Because during the race, you must be focused. You must be concentrated.

[00:31:30] And not shouting in the radio and losing energy and concentration for nothing because it happened already. You can't change it anymore. That's true. They always say hindsight is good. And I'm sure in that moment, there are just so many factors at play, including emotion as well. But you also mentioned this very interesting schedule of the day you made for Yuki, helping him settle into Europe.

[00:31:58] And we all know Yuki is a big food connoisseur. He loves his food. Did he ever take you to enjoy some of his culinary treats and expose you to a Japanese way of eating, Japanese way of living and celebrating life? Yeah, when we were in Japan, of course, Japanese. Because for me, the Japanese kitchen is the best kitchen in the world and also the most healthy kitchen in the world.

[00:32:27] The original Japanese kitchen. Unfortunately, they are mixing it up nowadays with some junk food. And this is not so good. But the original Japanese kitchen and eating culture is for me the healthiest and the best in the world. And it's amazing that Yuki is now a connoisseur.

[00:32:56] He apparently takes other Formula One drivers out for meals as well. I find that fun. Was he always like that when he first came here? Was he slightly shy as a teenager who's now moving to a different country, different language, big Formula One team? What was your first impression of him? No, Yuki was not so shy. This was the first impression was, he is not a typical Japanese. Because the Japanese are very shy if they come to a new environment. No, Yuki was not shy.

[00:33:26] It was weird from the beginning onwards, a good conversation and also fun. And Yuki is a really good guy. And you can have a lot of fun with him as well. And for him in the car this year, now that he's finally gotten that big Red Bull seat that we all agree he should deserve. What do you think is his biggest strength for that second seat?

[00:33:52] And also, what do you think his biggest challenge is going to be that he can work on to get better this year? His strength is his speed. Yuki has a good natural speed. And now, he has to get used to this very professional, very good team. And he has to be very focused.

[00:34:17] And if he gets everything together, you will see that he shows a good performance. Hmm. Hmm. And a lot of people say that he's stepping into a team where the car is built for max. I don't understand that. Because when you build a Formula One car, you're firstly thinking of how do you maximize speed, don't you? So, what's this logic of people saying that that Red Bull car is built around max? It's...

[00:34:47] You know, the drivers have different driving styles. One driver prefers a little bit of understeering car going into the corner. Another driver hates understeering going into the corner.

[00:35:06] And if a driver, for example, like Max, he absolutely does not like an understeering car going into the corner. He wants to come really good to the apex and then to start accelerating as early as possible. And the second driver wants to have an... And, of course, Max gives his technical feedback after each test, after each race.

[00:35:34] And then the engineers work on this, that the car is not anymore understeering. If then a second driver is coming who prefers an understeering car going into the corner, then he is in trouble. Because then, of course, the car has been designed like Max prefers it.

[00:35:56] And the second driver then has to change the setup, whatever is necessary to bring the car into a shape where he is fast with it. But the main thing is the top drivers have also nearly the same feeling for a car. And they set up the car in a similar way.

[00:36:25] They don't want to have this understeer going into the corners. Because they say, look, important is that the front axle brings me where I want to go to. And I don't care about the rear. The rear I control with the throttle or whatever. And if another driver is not used to this, then he is in trouble. Very interesting.

[00:36:50] This has got out a lot of drivers, Albin, Gasly, now Perez as well. Yeah, but sorry. Sorry. Please, yes. It has nothing to do with the driving style. They came too early to Red Bull Racing. Albin was far too early. I said it to them. I said it to him. It's too early for him. He should stay another one, two years with us. Look how fast he is now. He's doing a fantastic job.

[00:37:18] Or Pierre Gasly. I said it to them. Forget it. It will not work. Pierre is not ready for you. As I said last year, Liam Lawson is not ready for you. He has not the experience. And this was the reason why I was pushing for Yuki. Red Bull Racing needs an experienced driver in the situation where they are now. Because they have a world champ in there.

[00:37:47] And beside the world champ, you don't need a rookie. You need an experienced driver. And that's the main reason why Albin, Gasly, Kiat had problems over there. They were not ready for this absolutely top team. You know, Red Bull Racing is a team fighting for the Drivers and Constructors Championship.

[00:38:13] This is a big, big difference to Toro Rosso or to Alfa Tauros, to a midfield team. A big difference. And you must be aware about this. Then why do you think Red Bull actually put them there? Was it because they sort of didn't have an option? Or did somebody else in Red Bull Racing have a different view than yours? Why did these drivers get promoted? No, in those days, they didn't have another option.

[00:38:39] But, you know, this was the situation. And there is always the discussion. Why do I say that the driver needs two to three years to understand Formula One? The reason for this is, look, the first year, the driver needs to learn the racetracks.

[00:39:03] This sounds now maybe not so logical because we all know they are going into the simulator and so on and so on. But the simulator is not the racetrack. And, for example, their rookies have it really difficult because they have never been in Melbourne before racing there. They have never been in Shanghai or in Saudi Arabia or in Miami.

[00:39:31] These are the first races. Or in Canada. Everything is new. Now, someone will say, yeah, but they know from the simulator where are the corners. Of course, they know where are the corners. But if they come to the qualifying, it's always the first time. And if you go to the qualifying, maybe the sun has changed from FP3 to the qualifying is shining more or less. That means the surface temperature is different.

[00:40:02] The track temperature is different. Then, sometimes you have headwind, you have sidewind, you have tailwind. And these are very important factors for the car behavior. And experienced drivers know this, a little bit at least. They know when they go to Barcelona, corner nine, most often at this stage when there's the qualifying, there's a sidewind or something like this.

[00:40:30] This is the first point. The track and using the track to the best possible way. Then, when a young driver is coming to the races, for example, now to Melbourne, there's a lot of work to do for the press. There's a lot of work to do for marketing. And I always told our press and marketing people, look, you can use the drivers until Wednesday whenever you want.

[00:40:59] But from Thursday onwards, only a certain period of time. Because otherwise, such a young driver, Sunday when the race starts, when the red lights go out, they are mentally tired. And then, why do they need more than one year or something like this? To understand the car from the mechanical side.

[00:41:28] To understand the car from the aerodynamic side. And then to understand the tires. To do the correct tire management. This is from racetrack to racetrack different. You have also different compounds at the races. Soft, medium, hard. But not always the same. Because as we know, there are different types. And to get used to this, you need simply time.

[00:41:57] And you have to give young drivers this time. Because otherwise, there's a big risk that you burn them. Hmm. And it was a tough period, I think, in 2019 when Ricciardo left. Because all of... It's a weird time, right? Where you have so many young drivers. But all of them are very young. And they're not ready. I remember you had Brendan Hartley in the team in 2018.

[00:42:25] But was he or someone else ever on the cards to replace Daniel? Who would you have liked to replace Daniel in 2019? Because Fernando Alonso says he was in touch with Red Bull Racing at that time. And maybe he could have been the one. But who's your pick if you were being consulted at that time? At that time, it was a little bit difficult.

[00:42:50] Because, you know, they took Ricciardo, which was correct, the decision. Yeah. Yeah. With the other drivers, they were a little bit unexperienced. And the car was also not performing on the way as I expected. And the different factors were coming together.

[00:43:18] That the season ended not in the way as I would have liked. Hmm. It was a tough time. But then after that, we had such a good crop of rookies coming through from the team. Then the era of Yuki began a couple of years after that. And that's been phenomenal to see. And on that itself, I want to talk to you a little bit more about Liam now. Because he's in a tough situation.

[00:43:47] He's now been demoted. Obviously, for a young driver, that's very hard. We have seen many drivers recover from this. But it's not an easy situation for anyone. What would you say to him in a moment like this? So how would you nurture him after a situation like that? So I would tell him, look, the step to Red Bull Racing was too early. You need now to come back.

[00:44:15] And the most important part, what you have to do now is to enjoy racing, to enjoy driving the car, to build up a really good relationship to the team and to be positive, motivated. And then it will come. Because Liam knows more racetracks than later during the season because he did some races already for us.

[00:44:44] And I think that then he can recover. It's up to him. And he needs to be mentally strong. He needs to forget the past tense completely, not thinking backwards. Oh, I had the chance. I was there and it didn't work. And then to find excuses why it didn't work. No, forget it. Just to reset everything.

[00:45:15] Start with zero. And then he will be there. He showed already some good laps also in Suzuka. And although Suzuka he knew quite well because two years ago he was racing in Japan. But Liam is a driver. He needs time. He needs to get this experience. And then you will see.

[00:45:44] He will do a reasonable job. This makes me want to talk to you about the difficulty of running the team now known as Visa Cash App Racing Bulls. But in my heart, it's always Torr also. But how difficult is it to run that particular team? Because in my mind, it's the only Formula 1 team that serves three purposes. Number one, competing for points. Number two, nurturing drivers. And number three, also helping build the Red Bull brand.

[00:46:13] So I don't think any other team has such a diverse list of list of objectives to fulfill. It must be very difficult. And it's very respectable and admirable what you've done with the team over the course of your time there. Yeah, it's about a challenging program. But it's a very, very interesting program. And looking to the team now, I must say they are in a very strong position. They have a real competitive car.

[00:46:42] The engineers did a fantastic job. Point one, point two, they have also two good drivers. With Isaac Hatcher and with Liam Lawson, they have two competitive drivers and they will do a good job during the season. Because Isaac, for example, he had a really good development program. He was racing two years Formula 3, two years Formula 2.

[00:47:10] He won last year in Formula 2 a couple of races. He was until the last race fighting for the championship. And he is really, really competitive and a high-skilled driver. And Liam has the time now to recover. And he will look to Isaac.

[00:47:36] And the biggest advantage for both of them is that the car is competitive. Because if the car is not competitive, if the car is not working as you expect, if you have not a good balance, if you have too much over or understeer, whatever, then it's even more difficult for us our young drivers. Which brings me to an interesting question, Francis.

[00:48:07] How do you manage car development with rookies? Because they don't have the experience to direct you or direct the engineers in any particular way. Then how do you decide what direction to go in? Is there a more engineering-led direction than you just let the engineers do it? Because the drivers are still learning the ropes? Nowadays, the drivers are very, very well educated on the technical side. Why?

[00:48:36] Look, most of these drivers started karting being 6, 7 years old. And if they come to Formula 1, they have done 14 years racing. And also during karting, I was at the kart race last year a couple of times. And it's unbelievable how intensive they work with the data.

[00:49:03] And how good they do the interpretation of the data. They are being educated really very, very well. And then they come to Formula 4. The same story there. A little bit more complicated because you have other tires and you have already the aerodynamic also playing a role in there. Then Formula 3. A next step. And then Formula 2.

[00:49:30] And from setting up the car, these Formula cars are not so different to a Formula 1 car. If you have understeering, you have understeering. And you do the same in Formula 3 that you change front wings or go softer on the front from the springs or change the right tire. As in Formula 1. There's not a difference. And of course, in Formula 1. You have more engineers. You have the mechanical engineer, the chassis engineer.

[00:50:00] You have the aerodynamic engineer. And they are all studying the data. They see what's going on out there. And then it's very important and decisive for the development of the car, whether the feedback of the drivers are in line with the data which they have.

[00:50:24] If there's a high correlation, if the driver says he has understeering in corner one and you see on the data, yes, he has understeering in corner one, then the engineers know, aha, we have to work on this.

[00:50:38] That means if there's a high correlation between the feedback, the technical feedback of the drivers and of the data, it's quite easy to develop the car because then the engineers know which direction to go. You know, Franz, the longer we speak to you, the more fascinating your insights go.

[00:51:03] I realize we're going to ask you for your time a lot more time for the years to come. But, you know, sticking to your time at Toro Rosso Racing Bulls, how difficult is it to run a team not knowing who the drivers are going to be racing for you for the rest of the season, given how many times a swap can happen? Is that a challenge or is that also built into the DNA of Racing Bulls?

[00:51:29] It should not be in the DNA of the Racing Bulls to change the drivers during a year. To change the driver during the year is a very, very big challenge. Why? Because the driver has to get used to the car. The driver has to get used to the team. And all these components together make it really difficult.

[00:51:56] Because normally you start to prepare the driver in January with a private test, which we always did with our drivers, to be in Imola for two days, that they get the feeling back for the car, for the speed, for the brakes, for everything. And for the seat, that the seat is working well.

[00:52:20] And when you then change the driver during the year, it's really, really difficult. And it's for both teams in this case now, for the Racing Bulls, but also for Red Bull Racing, a challenge to get everything under one roof in the shortest possible timeframe. Because this is decisive.

[00:52:45] And we saw it with Yuki in Suzuka, when the team decided to send him out in qualifying two with a used set of tyre. This was, yeah, it was too early. He was not fast enough with the used set of tyres. And then he had only one chance with the new set. And there he had a problem in the first sector.

[00:53:14] He lost two tenths and that's it. Basta, yeah. And these are the examples how difficult it is to find out the correct decision. And therefore, if you know the driver, then it's much better to decide in the correct way.

[00:53:42] And it's particularly challenging for all the teams this year because we have so many rookies. Like, I'm thinking Racing Bulls must be facing this with Issa. But Haas have it with Oliver Behrman as well. Mercedes have it with Kimi Antonelli too. And in one way or the other, most of them have looked very impressive. Don't you think so? Yes. I'm very impressed by the performance of Kimi Antonelli. All the races, he did a good job.

[00:54:12] I'm also impressed by Issa Kacar. As well as with Behrman. Behrman did a fantastic job now in Suzuka. He was a little bit too stormy in Melbourne when he crashed at the beginning. This was not necessary.

[00:54:37] But this was the example that he risked far too much. He went out and thought that there are no physical rules. And the result we knew. But he learned fast. And in Suzuka, finishing on the 10th position on such a difficult track is very good for a rookie, I must say. Really good. Portolotto, yeah, it's okay.

[00:55:08] And Duhin, yeah, I think he needs more time. Do you think he will get more time though, Jack Duhin? No. Yeah, that's the general feeling as well. And Portolotto, I guess he's also in the slowest car. So for him to prove a point is also tough. Although he's doing fairly alright against Nico Hulkenberg. Yeah, Nico is very fast.

[00:55:37] And if Portolotto has more experience, then we will see. You must give him time. You must give him time at least this season and next season. And then you can get a clearer picture. Here the factors are coming, as I just mentioned before. These drivers are always the first time in a qualifying at every race weekend.

[00:56:06] And that's so tough. Because Formula One currently, for me, has the strongest driver field ever. There's no weak driver on the starting grid. And the cars are very, very close together. We have never seen this before in Formula One like it's now, you know. The first three, four cars, these are hundreds of a second.

[00:56:33] And also the midfield, they are so close together, you know, between place five, six, and there's maybe half a second. But also the midfield is done very, very close together. And you are not allowed to make the smallest mistake because you're immediately in the back. And therefore it's tough for the rookie drivers. I loved how you've summarized rookies, the fastest grid or the best grid we've had,

[00:57:03] closest competition with the cars. I'm sure your fellow Austrian Toto Wolff would be happy that you feel that Antonelli has had a good start to his debut season as well. Was he ever on the radar for the Red Bull Racing Junior program or was he always a Mercedes driver, given how early Toto Wolff has been investing in his career? He was always a Mercedes driver from karting onwards. Do you think he could be the next Max Verstappen, as Toto Wolff has been saying?

[00:57:33] This I can't answer yet because it takes time, you know. So I always tell the drivers to come into Formula 1 is one story. But to establish in Formula 1 and to jump up to a champion, to a world champion, this is another story. This is the question then of mentality. You know, look, if you take Fangio, five titles.

[00:58:02] Michael Schumacher, seven titles. Twelve titles, two drivers. Then Hamilton, seven titles. Nineteen titles, three drivers. Vettel, four titles. It's for 23. And Max Verstappen, four titles. It's for 27. With five drivers. I have not talked now about Niki Lauda, about Jackie Stewart, three titles and so on and so on. Or Alan Brost. Yeah. So that means five drivers. 27 titles.

[00:58:32] This is, you know, this statistic tells you something. It's a question of the head. It's a question of a strong mentality. And nowadays in Formula 1, or let me say generally in Formula 1, there are always two, three real good drivers and one extreme good driver. And the difference is just in the head because they can drive.

[00:59:01] They have the abilities to drive. They have the talent to drive. But who is stronger and more clever in his head will win. And this is also a developing process. You don't know when you start with a young driver. You don't know. Does he have the mental capacity later on to become a world champion?

[00:59:29] You know, I knew when Max started with us that he for sure will win races in Formula 1. But I didn't know that he can win for world champion titles. This would be totally wrong to say this now. And once more, it depends then how a driver develops himself, not only from the driving, from the working with the press, from the working with the marketing. No, also from his mental side.

[00:59:59] Very, very important factor. And this you don't know beforehand. And this you've done for so many incredible drivers, which is why this last hour has been so amazing for us. It's fascinating to hear your insights. And we must get you back one more time. Because there are so many questions I want to know about tire management, about the mentality, about the first year, about how they progress in the second year. You know, you've said things like, it takes a couple of years in F2 and F3. And then Somel and I were like,

[01:00:29] but PS3 took just one year in F2, one year in F3. Just coming back to Piastri. Yes. One year Formula 3 won the championship. One year Formula 2 won the championship. And then Alpine did with him around 10,000 kilometers testing. Very important. Like Mercedes did with Antonelli. 10,000 kilometers. This is a lot.

[01:00:53] That means you have really the possibility to get at least very familiar with the car. Because as I said before, you have so many challenges at the racetrack with the weather conditions, with the surface, with the tires, with the other drivers. Then it's a big advantage if you are 100% familiar with the car and if you have everything under control.

[01:01:21] But Piastri took him also two years now. And he belongs from me to the best driver or one of the best drivers behind Verstappen. He is for me a future world champ. Good. As we end this episode, I know Sovel and I keep saying last question, last question. But seriously, last question.

[01:01:47] Do you think Oscar Piastri could win the 2025 Formula 1 World Championship? From the speed, yes. It depends then how the team sees it. He is currently a few points behind Norris. And I always said in the last interviews, that's the big chance for Max.

[01:02:13] Because these two drivers will fight against each other, will take away points, and then Max is there. Piastri, from his mental strength and from his speed, is absolutely able to win a championship. And when you said the team depends on how the team sees it, is that a way of saying that McLaren are probably favoring Lando Norris because of his experience with the team?

[01:02:45] I don't think that they can favor a driver because Piastri will not accept it. Piastri is for me an alpha driver. That means, and he is with Mark Weber. He is one of the best possible managers because Mark knows everything in Formula 1. Absolutely everything. And I don't expect

[01:03:12] that they will respect any team orders or something like this. Piastri knows what he has to do. He has to be in the qualifying in front. Very, very, very fascinating, Franz. Thank you very much for this time. I mean, I have goosebumps through all the stories and we know there are a lot more. We will book a fresh hour with you again in the next couple of weeks to get even more out of these beautiful moments that you've had

[01:03:41] with so many world champion drivers, star drivers, and the very fact that, you know, you've been nurturing them. I remember at Force India when I ran the driver program, it was you and Dr. Marco I used to look up to. So what a pleasure to be on the same call with you and wish you a very lovely day ahead. I hope you had the smiles that I promised you before we started recording. Okay, have a lovely day, Franz. And thank you really one more time. We'll speak very soon. And thanks for your time as well, Samuel. Okay. Thanks to all of you. Thank you. Ciao. Ciao, ciao.

[01:04:11] Thank you. Bye-bye. Ciao, man. Ciao. Ciao.