Economic challenges, technology innovations, changing attitudes to how and where we work, and a new, very different generation entering the workplace. These are just some of the forces driving change across the whole of the people function.
In this second compilation episode of interviews I recorded at Transform earlier in the year, I speak to two of the most innovative HR Executives out there about the changing Talent landscape.
My first guest, Donald Knight, Chief People Officer at Greenhouse, shares his insights on the current challenges for CPOs, the importance of developing curiosity, and the need to eliminate the laggard approach that has categorized HR for so long.
My second conversation is with John Baldino, President of Humareso. This was the final interview I recorded at the conference, and we reflect on the event, our key learnings from it, and the future of HR in an AI-driven world.
[00:00:00] Hi, this is Matt. Just before we start the show, I want to tell you about a free white
[00:00:05] paper that I've just published on AI and talent acquisition. We all know that AI is
[00:00:11] going to dramatically change recruiting. But what will that really look like? For example,
[00:00:17] imagine a future where AI can predict your company's future talent needs, build dynamic
[00:00:23] external and internal talent pools, craft personalised candidate experiences and intelligently
[00:00:31] automate recruitment marketing. The new white paper, Ten Ways AI Will Transform
[00:00:36] Talent Acquisition doesn't claim to have all the answers. But it does explore the
[00:00:42] most likely scenarios on how AI will impact recruiting. So get a head start on planning
[00:00:49] and influencing the future of your talent acquisition strategy. You can download your
[00:00:54] copy of the white paper at matalder.me slash transform. That's matalder.me slash transform.
[00:01:19] Hi there, welcome to episode 608 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alda.
[00:01:29] Economic challenges, technology innovations, changing attitudes to how and where we work
[00:01:36] and a new, very different generation entering the workplace. These are just some of the
[00:01:42] forces driving change across the whole of the people function.
[00:01:46] During this second compilation episode of interviews I recorded at Transform earlier
[00:01:50] in the year, I speak to two of the most innovative HR executives out there about
[00:01:55] the changing talent landscape. My first guest, Donald Knight, Chief People
[00:02:00] Officer at Greenhouse, shares his insights on the current challenges for CPOs, the
[00:02:06] importance of developing curiosity and the need to eliminate the laggard approach that
[00:02:12] has categorised HR for so long. My second conversation is with John Baldino, President
[00:02:18] of Humoriso. This was the final interview I recorded at the conference and we reflect
[00:02:23] on the event, our key learnings from it and the future of HR in an AI driven world.
[00:02:30] So could you start by introducing yourself and telling everyone what you do?
[00:02:34] Absolutely. Donald Knight, Chief People Officer for Greenhouse Software. What is
[00:02:39] Greenhouse Software? It's hiring software. Our goal is to make every company great
[00:02:43] at hiring and last but certainly not least, my favourite title in the entire world is
[00:02:49] being a dad to both Dalen and Avery. What brings you to the show? What have you
[00:02:53] been here to do? What have you got out of it? What have you noticed? What's
[00:02:56] been going on? Yeah, this is my third one and what I'm most excited about Transform
[00:03:02] Conference is I feel like we're transforming the profession. I can see a shift happening
[00:03:07] right now where we're getting greater tools and greater investment in new tech
[00:03:12] in this space. I'm seeing new leaders be elevated and they're bringing with them
[00:03:17] fresh perspective on how you motivate and how do you develop talent and last
[00:03:22] but certainly not least, man, I like to have fun. I love getting with our
[00:03:25] people and trying to just see some familiar faces and make some friends
[00:03:31] with some new ones. And what's it like being a Chief People Officer for a
[00:03:34] business that sells into the HR sector? That must be quite a kind of unique
[00:03:38] experience. It is very unique. Look, I firmly believe that the hardest job
[00:03:42] on the planet right now is being a people leader and I think the hardest
[00:03:46] type of people leader is being a Chief People or Chief Human Resource
[00:03:50] Officer. What we've had to endure over the last three to five years is
[00:03:54] like unprecedented and particularly being a CPO at an HR tech company.
[00:03:58] What it means is that the bar of excellence is just a lot higher
[00:04:01] because you got to think about it. 100% of my organization is contributing or
[00:04:05] connecting with other CPO's, other VPs of talent acquisition in the space.
[00:04:10] So it's harder. It's both refreshing, rewarding and very tiring.
[00:04:16] So I need to recharge sometimes, but it's amazing.
[00:04:20] I can imagine. And I suppose based on that and based on maybe some of
[00:04:24] the conversations you've been hearing throughout the event, what do you
[00:04:28] think the biggest issues and challenges are for Chief People officers at
[00:04:34] the moment? I see three. The first one is there's real anxiety
[00:04:40] and almost a lack of confidence that the progress that has been made
[00:04:46] on DE&I will stay around. So there's real concern there. There's a second
[00:04:52] concern or fear around how do you deploy new technology like AI?
[00:05:00] And will the deployment of such technology eliminate jobs more than it
[00:05:06] does, more than it helps the people within those jobs?
[00:05:10] So those are the two fears and concerns. The third thing though that I
[00:05:13] see that is a big risk or a big fear is how do you navigate leadership
[00:05:19] development, particularly for younger generations entering the workforce?
[00:05:25] So those are the three fears or challenges. But Matt, I have a recipe
[00:05:29] for how do you address those challenges? I think the first one is
[00:05:32] hope and it's not like blind optimism. I use the analogy of a
[00:05:37] tunnel. Whenever you enter a tunnel, you can see the sunlight behind
[00:05:40] you. Whenever you exit a tunnel, you can see the sunlight in front
[00:05:42] of you, but in the middle of the tunnel is the darkest part.
[00:05:45] But that's where real change is happening. And so I'm not afraid of
[00:05:50] sound bites people give me on DE&I because I'm seeing more inclusive
[00:05:53] workplaces. I'm not afraid of the disruption of AI because what I'm
[00:05:58] seeing is folks being vocal around how do you deploy that in the
[00:06:04] most meaningful way? And then I'm not concerned too much at all
[00:06:09] around the new generations because they're bringing a different zeal
[00:06:13] and energy to the workplace. And companies that are not ready to
[00:06:17] embrace them, watch out because they are the future of talent.
[00:06:20] With AI, do you think that I just get a sense that HR, talent
[00:06:26] acquisition is a profession? It's kind of a bit in the
[00:06:29] headlights when it comes to AI. There are people that are
[00:06:31] embracing it and that's you know, that's fantastic. They're
[00:06:34] experimenting, they're doing what they need to be doing. But I
[00:06:37] think there's also people who are kind of either waiting to
[00:06:38] see what's going to happen or are convinced that it's not
[00:06:43] going to fundamentally change everything. What's your sort of
[00:06:47] view? Am I reading that right?
[00:06:49] Matt, not only are you reading it right, it's refreshing to talk
[00:06:52] to someone else who's as controversial as I am. Look,
[00:06:57] the reality is there's people in this profession who have
[00:07:00] built a career, a rather successful career being laggards.
[00:07:03] They haven't been early adopters once. We still have
[00:07:08] order takers in this profession. We also have folks who have
[00:07:15] been able to navigate a career without immersing themselves in
[00:07:18] new technology. And the lack of curiosity that I see in many
[00:07:23] of my peers is it's concerning. Because while I'm confident,
[00:07:33] they won't be able to remain in the profession too long. My
[00:07:35] concern is that they're teaching behaviors to talent inside of
[00:07:41] their organization that says don't be curious. And so I
[00:07:45] think you're spot on like there's people that are staying
[00:07:48] back and watching from the sidelines as opposed to suiting
[00:07:51] up and getting inside the game. And lucky for me being
[00:07:56] at a SaaS company that's focused in HR tech, look, my
[00:07:59] team is customer zero, there's not a feature that rolls out
[00:08:01] from Greenhouse that my team didn't play with or inform.
[00:08:05] Right? And so there's some other curious folks out there,
[00:08:09] Kara Alamano is one, Dean Carter is another. But I'm
[00:08:14] excited about the shift that I see happening in our
[00:08:16] profession where those folks that are more laggards, I
[00:08:20] think AI will expose their lack of curiosity and hopefully
[00:08:24] usher in a new wave of leadership.
[00:08:25] I think that makes a lot of sense because I think waiting
[00:08:27] to see what's going to happen is not really, it's kind of
[00:08:32] not really a great strategy. I think the best quote I've
[00:08:34] heard about this was from Sam Altman, OpenAI. Obviously he
[00:08:39] would say this because it's in his interest to do it. But
[00:08:42] it was an interview he did with Bill Gates and he
[00:08:43] basically said that the next five to 10 years we're going
[00:08:46] to see this exponential change driven by AI. And if
[00:08:51] you've got more than five years left in your career,
[00:08:54] this absolutely concerns you right now. I think that was
[00:08:57] such a great way of putting it.
[00:08:59] I agree. I mean, I'm a huge Sam fan. OpenAI is a
[00:09:02] greenhouse customer. But I tell people, Sam is not the
[00:09:07] father of AI. I mean, AI was being discussed back in
[00:09:10] 1936 by Alan Turing. And so if any listeners in our
[00:09:16] profession heard that for the first time, I'm not a
[00:09:20] software engineer, I'm just curious. And I think the
[00:09:24] curiosity that Sam speaks of, meaning if you're going to
[00:09:27] be working longer than five years, then you should be
[00:09:30] curious about the new tools that are coming because
[00:09:31] they're here already. And I hearken it to the
[00:09:34] typewriter. I love the typewriter. I think it's an
[00:09:36] amazing piece of machinery. But if you devoted your
[00:09:39] time in your career saying you're only going to work
[00:09:41] on the typewriter and you're not going to conform
[00:09:43] to the desktop or the laptop, you wouldn't have a
[00:09:45] job today.
[00:09:46] Let's talk about curiosity, because I think you're right,
[00:09:49] it's so incredibly important. Can you measure it as a
[00:09:52] skill? And can you train people to be more curious?
[00:09:56] Absolutely. I think measuring it has been the hardest
[00:09:59] thing to do in the workplace. But we've also created
[00:10:02] workplaces where we stifle curiosity. What do I mean by
[00:10:05] that? So if I'm a software engineer, or I'm a
[00:10:08] meteorologist, I get paid to fail. Software engineers,
[00:10:14] they roll out a new product doesn't work. Guess what
[00:10:16] they say? Just beta. It was beta. Matt, come on, it's
[00:10:20] beta. They roll out the real version is still not
[00:10:23] working. You know what they say? I'm debugging it.
[00:10:26] Right? Meteorologists gets the weather right 50% of
[00:10:28] the time, they still got a job. Now, here's the
[00:10:31] here's the great thing about those two professions.
[00:10:34] They're still very smart, intelligent people in both
[00:10:37] of those professions. The only thing is we created
[00:10:39] an environment where failure is okay. Right? And so
[00:10:42] they fail, but they feel fast. And then they iterate
[00:10:45] with the end in mind. I think we have to see that
[00:10:47] done other places inside of businesses, stop
[00:10:51] expecting a perfect people team. Allow them the
[00:10:54] opportunity to test with things like AI, allow
[00:10:57] them to be curious, allow them to be critical
[00:10:59] thinkers again. And if you do that, not only
[00:11:02] will their level of fulfillment go up, but
[00:11:04] their level of impact will be 10x what's
[00:11:07] happening today.
[00:11:08] I suppose related to that, picking up on the
[00:11:10] thing about the next generation in the workforce,
[00:11:13] so the force of nature that is that is Gen Z in
[00:11:15] the workforce. One of the one of the kind of the
[00:11:19] arguments that keeps getting trotted out for
[00:11:22] companies sort of dragging people back to the
[00:11:24] office. What we print when they've told people
[00:11:26] they're never gonna have to come back to the
[00:11:27] office again, then they do is we need to be
[00:11:30] in person so that this next generation coming
[00:11:33] through can can observe and learn all the
[00:11:35] skills in the same way that we we learn
[00:11:37] skills and having spoken to people in that
[00:11:40] generation, they don't necessarily buy into that
[00:11:44] as the best way for them to get up to speed
[00:11:46] with the workforce or develop the workforce.
[00:11:47] What's your take on it?
[00:11:48] Again, it's always refreshing to talk to
[00:11:51] another controversial person in this space.
[00:11:54] Listen to me, I think I love history.
[00:11:56] History tells me that the youth has always
[00:11:58] been the most powerful force in anything.
[00:12:01] In any generation, youth brought a different
[00:12:04] perspective. They also had different realities.
[00:12:08] And so this idea that you have to be in
[00:12:10] person, I get it.
[00:12:11] I don't agree with it, but I get it.
[00:12:13] Elon Musk has never made a billion dollars
[00:12:15] working remotely.
[00:12:17] He's only been able to co-create with people
[00:12:19] in person. And so his bias, his default
[00:12:23] action and behaviors where he's a safe place
[00:12:25] for innovation is in person.
[00:12:28] But what he has to realize and what other
[00:12:30] leaders have to realize is there's a new
[00:12:32] generation here and their defaults when they
[00:12:34] landed on the planet, they had different
[00:12:36] realities. They've been able to pass tests
[00:12:39] remotely, build friendships remotely, be able
[00:12:42] to navigate colleges and universities
[00:12:44] remotely. And so this idea that you have
[00:12:47] to be in person, that you have that
[00:12:48] physical proximity from someone else to be
[00:12:51] able to learn, it's bull crap, number one.
[00:12:53] And then number two, to chief people
[00:12:56] officers and chief learning officers,
[00:12:57] stop being lazy.
[00:12:59] People learn differently and you have to
[00:13:01] be able to create pathways that allow for
[00:13:03] the person who wants to come in person to
[00:13:05] learn and be developed.
[00:13:06] You have to create a pathway for that.
[00:13:08] You have to be able to create pathways for
[00:13:09] people who learn better when they're
[00:13:11] remote. Visual versus audio learners, you
[00:13:13] got to create pathways for those people
[00:13:15] that are neurodivergent.
[00:13:16] Stop being lazy in the way that you grow
[00:13:19] and develop people.
[00:13:20] I wanted to ask you about skills because
[00:13:23] I've been having a lot of conversations
[00:13:24] with people about this over the last
[00:13:26] few weeks and yesterday morning I chaired
[00:13:29] a panel. It was called Talent Marketplace.
[00:13:31] It was all about growing skills within
[00:13:32] businesses and things like that.
[00:13:33] What do you think is actually happening
[00:13:36] in this sort of move towards skills?
[00:13:38] Because there's a lot of talk about it.
[00:13:40] Every company seems to think about it in
[00:13:42] a different way.
[00:13:43] There are obviously technology solutions
[00:13:44] out there, your own company kind of
[00:13:47] included that are powering this.
[00:13:49] What's your vision around skills and
[00:13:53] building them in the workforce and
[00:13:54] having the right skills at the right
[00:13:56] time and those kind of things?
[00:13:57] I believe the workplace has always
[00:13:59] rewarded skills and skill building.
[00:14:02] We just weren't intentional on how we
[00:14:04] facilitated that.
[00:14:05] And so it often got masked with what I
[00:14:07] call widespread blankets.
[00:14:09] College and the degree itself is a
[00:14:12] widespread blanket.
[00:14:14] Right?
[00:14:14] Knowledge sharing is education is
[00:14:16] nothing more than knowledge sharing.
[00:14:18] So going to somewhere for three,
[00:14:20] four years and listening to really
[00:14:21] smart people tell you really smart
[00:14:23] things and then assessing you on
[00:14:25] that. It was skill building.
[00:14:26] Now some of those skills were no
[00:14:28] longer applicable to the jobs that
[00:14:29] you actually took on.
[00:14:30] Most people don't even work within
[00:14:32] the occupation of what their degree
[00:14:35] specializes in.
[00:14:35] Right?
[00:14:36] So I think we've always been in
[00:14:38] skill building.
[00:14:39] This is where I think we suck though.
[00:14:41] We don't know how to measure
[00:14:42] capability.
[00:14:43] Right?
[00:14:44] So, you know, Matt wants to get into
[00:14:46] podcasting and has never podcasted
[00:14:48] before and he's starting his
[00:14:51] podcasting company, his media company.
[00:14:54] His first year he might not do a
[00:14:55] million streams.
[00:14:57] That's an outcome.
[00:14:58] It's not a capability.
[00:14:59] The capability is how much is he
[00:15:01] able to keep guests engaged?
[00:15:03] Is he on time or is he late?
[00:15:04] Do people come follow up on him
[00:15:06] and say, hey, I want to amplify
[00:15:08] that episode 117 because the
[00:15:10] conversation you had with that
[00:15:11] SME was so phenomenal.
[00:15:13] That's the capability.
[00:15:14] We don't measure capability.
[00:15:16] Most performance today measures
[00:15:18] outcomes.
[00:15:19] And if we want to be able to
[00:15:20] truly build skills, we got to
[00:15:22] stop measuring outcomes and start
[00:15:24] measuring capabilities.
[00:15:25] Now outcomes still matter.
[00:15:27] But I'll tell you, I got a VP
[00:15:28] of People's Success on my team.
[00:15:30] He's been at the company a little
[00:15:32] over a year.
[00:15:33] A good portion of that he was on
[00:15:34] parental leave because he had a
[00:15:35] second child.
[00:15:36] I care about his capability.
[00:15:38] Can he present better in front
[00:15:40] of Greenhouse?
[00:15:41] Has he been able to connect
[00:15:43] learning and development
[00:15:44] programmatic modules that we're
[00:15:45] going to roll out to new team
[00:15:46] members as opposed to how many
[00:15:49] people pass their assessment at
[00:15:51] the end of the learn growth and
[00:15:53] development module like that's an
[00:15:55] outcome.
[00:15:55] We got to start measuring
[00:15:56] capabilities.
[00:15:57] I suppose to summarize and tie
[00:15:59] this all together as a final
[00:16:00] question.
[00:16:01] What what do you think the
[00:16:02] future looks like if we're
[00:16:04] having this conversation again
[00:16:05] in I don't know let's say
[00:16:06] three years time.
[00:16:07] What will we be talking about?
[00:16:10] This is where I think me and
[00:16:11] Sam are aligned although we've
[00:16:13] never met.
[00:16:14] So Sam Altman if you hear this
[00:16:15] I'm looking forward to meeting
[00:16:16] you.
[00:16:17] I think the quest that we're
[00:16:18] on is to create an environment
[00:16:22] in a society where people are
[00:16:24] living their most fulfilled
[00:16:25] lives.
[00:16:26] That's the mission I'm on.
[00:16:28] The companies I work for they're
[00:16:30] on that same mission.
[00:16:31] How do you create an environment
[00:16:33] in a society where people are
[00:16:35] living their most fulfilled
[00:16:36] lives and in doing so right.
[00:16:38] You may have to call Sam and
[00:16:39] open a eye to be able to
[00:16:41] deploy technology that allows
[00:16:43] people to stop being bogged
[00:16:44] down in monotonous work in
[00:16:47] manual work that stifles
[00:16:50] their creativity and ideation
[00:16:52] and you need to be able to
[00:16:53] free them up so they can
[00:16:55] really unlock that potential
[00:16:56] that we've been sitting on as
[00:16:58] a planet and as humans since
[00:17:01] the beginning of time.
[00:17:02] That's the mission we're on
[00:17:03] allowing people to have the
[00:17:04] most fulfilling lives.
[00:17:05] I don't think I could agree
[00:17:06] with you more.
[00:17:07] Donald thank you so much for
[00:17:08] joining me.
[00:17:09] Man Matt thank you for
[00:17:10] having me man we got to do
[00:17:11] this again.
[00:17:12] A quick message from our
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[00:19:10] So hi John welcome to
[00:19:11] the show.
[00:19:11] Matt thanks so much for
[00:19:12] having me.
[00:19:13] And I can't believe you've
[00:19:14] not been on before.
[00:19:15] I am highly offended
[00:19:17] that I have not been on
[00:19:18] this far.
[00:19:18] That's my bad.
[00:19:19] That's my bad.
[00:19:19] So I'm fixing that
[00:19:21] right now.
[00:19:21] You are.
[00:19:23] So could you introduce
[00:19:24] yourself and tell everyone
[00:19:25] what you do.
[00:19:25] Absolutely.
[00:19:26] I'm John Baldino.
[00:19:27] I am the president of
[00:19:28] Humoriso which is a global
[00:19:30] HR consulting firm.
[00:19:32] I've had the privilege of
[00:19:33] leading that organization
[00:19:34] for the last 12 years
[00:19:37] and have been in HR for
[00:19:39] 30 plus my friend.
[00:19:40] That's all we say now.
[00:19:42] Absolutely.
[00:19:43] Absolutely.
[00:19:43] Yeah.
[00:19:44] I stopped at 20 plus.
[00:19:45] I can't say anything
[00:19:47] after that.
[00:19:49] So we're at Transform.
[00:19:52] It's literally kind of
[00:19:54] closing down around us now.
[00:19:55] They've pumped the music up.
[00:19:56] We've had to move out of
[00:19:57] the podcast zone.
[00:19:58] People are drinking.
[00:19:59] It's kind of you know
[00:20:01] because of us I heard.
[00:20:02] Yeah I think yeah that's it.
[00:20:03] We finished it all off.
[00:20:05] So tell me about the show.
[00:20:06] Why did you come?
[00:20:07] What have you got out of it?
[00:20:09] Out of it.
[00:20:09] What interesting things
[00:20:10] you've heard.
[00:20:11] Yeah I mean I had
[00:20:12] the opportunity to be on a
[00:20:14] panel and a moderator
[00:20:15] panel was asked to do
[00:20:16] that and that was great.
[00:20:18] I also was asked to be a
[00:20:19] part of our webcast
[00:20:21] that Jackie Clayton and I do
[00:20:23] on But First Coffee.
[00:20:24] But I have not been to
[00:20:25] Transform before.
[00:20:26] This is my first time coming
[00:20:28] to this conference.
[00:20:28] And so I honestly wasn't sure.
[00:20:32] I've talked to some people
[00:20:33] but I wasn't sure exactly
[00:20:34] how it would flow
[00:20:35] and what it's like.
[00:20:35] And I have to say
[00:20:37] I love the opportunity
[00:20:39] to have connection
[00:20:40] the way it happens here.
[00:20:41] Right.
[00:20:41] It's more intimate
[00:20:43] and I don't mean intimate
[00:20:44] as a you know a misnomer
[00:20:46] for small in that regard.
[00:20:48] There's about 3000 people
[00:20:50] or something like that here.
[00:20:51] And that's that's
[00:20:52] significant enough.
[00:20:53] But it's not overwhelming
[00:20:54] that you can't have
[00:20:56] good conversation
[00:20:58] with with colleagues
[00:20:59] with other practitioners
[00:21:00] and quite frankly
[00:21:02] have really robust
[00:21:03] conversation with the
[00:21:04] tech platforms.
[00:21:06] That's so good.
[00:21:07] Yeah.
[00:21:08] And even like that
[00:21:09] the expo floor here
[00:21:10] they've got it in a circle.
[00:21:11] So you're not
[00:21:13] disappearing down those aisles
[00:21:14] and you think there's kind
[00:21:15] of a flow of walking around
[00:21:17] and stuff like that.
[00:21:17] The never ending aisles
[00:21:19] that we and I have walked
[00:21:21] for decades.
[00:21:22] But that's right.
[00:21:24] They're really wise
[00:21:25] about the way in which
[00:21:26] I think they laid laid out
[00:21:27] the the expo floor
[00:21:30] and it gives you
[00:21:31] a great opportunity to really
[00:21:32] be exposed to
[00:21:34] a lot of platforms
[00:21:35] really easily.
[00:21:36] Let's start with that.
[00:21:37] Have you seen any
[00:21:38] interesting tech?
[00:21:39] Is there anything
[00:21:39] that's caught your eye?
[00:21:40] Any interesting conversations
[00:21:41] with with vendors?
[00:21:42] It's funny.
[00:21:44] Yes is the simple answer.
[00:21:45] Right.
[00:21:46] In being specific.
[00:21:47] So there's a
[00:21:49] there's obviously a push
[00:21:50] in the generative AI perspective.
[00:21:52] You know, everyone that I talked to
[00:21:54] starts out with their
[00:21:55] with their kind of key points.
[00:21:57] Make sure that they say
[00:21:58] the AI thing.
[00:21:59] You know, it's a have to now.
[00:22:01] Right.
[00:22:01] You have to say it.
[00:22:02] But it's fun to kind of
[00:22:04] go a little deeper with them
[00:22:05] to say, well, what problem
[00:22:06] do you think you're trying
[00:22:07] to solve for with it?
[00:22:08] What what pushed you
[00:22:10] to let that be the
[00:22:11] the reason that you built
[00:22:12] what you built?
[00:22:14] And I love hearing from
[00:22:16] especially in the innovation area,
[00:22:17] the smaller companies
[00:22:19] that are just getting going.
[00:22:21] What they're super passionate
[00:22:23] about this is what I saw
[00:22:24] and this is why I'm doing it.
[00:22:26] So in that area, I
[00:22:28] I had a great conversation
[00:22:30] with Virgil HR
[00:22:32] and they're doing the
[00:22:34] oh so sexy compliance
[00:22:36] component of life.
[00:22:37] There we go.
[00:22:38] Right.
[00:22:38] Someone has to somebody has to.
[00:22:41] And I know everybody wants to be.
[00:22:44] You know, involved
[00:22:45] with some other things
[00:22:46] that seem quite frankly sexier.
[00:22:48] Yeah.
[00:22:49] But there's a portion of HR
[00:22:51] that still has to handle compliance.
[00:22:53] And especially when you have
[00:22:54] distributed workforces,
[00:22:55] that sort of thing,
[00:22:56] having something like that
[00:22:57] in your back pocket
[00:22:59] as a platform is really helpful.
[00:23:01] Yeah, that was one that
[00:23:02] that I chatted to.
[00:23:04] I talked to another one
[00:23:06] contact co, I think is what it was.
[00:23:08] It's it's health based
[00:23:10] in that it is
[00:23:12] sort of speaking
[00:23:13] to the various platforms
[00:23:14] that you might have on your apps
[00:23:16] on your your iPhone
[00:23:18] or Galaxy or whatever it is you're on.
[00:23:21] And it's it's sort of calling
[00:23:22] all this data into one
[00:23:24] app platform
[00:23:26] to say, let's talk about your
[00:23:29] heart.
[00:23:30] Let's talk about your breathing.
[00:23:33] Let's if you want,
[00:23:34] you can open it up
[00:23:35] to integrate with your medical provider.
[00:23:38] And so there's some tracking
[00:23:39] that can go along there.
[00:23:41] Now I know people might feel
[00:23:42] that scary that, you know,
[00:23:43] Apple will now know everything
[00:23:45] about my health, but that's it's
[00:23:46] it's not right.
[00:23:48] There's a lot of safeguards in that.
[00:23:50] But but to be able to just
[00:23:52] from your phone
[00:23:53] look to say, what should I be handling
[00:23:55] in my health right now?
[00:23:57] What what is
[00:23:58] what are these steps
[00:23:59] that I'm taking in these
[00:24:00] this integrated workout platform
[00:24:02] and my nutrition platform?
[00:24:04] What is all that saying
[00:24:05] about what I'm doing?
[00:24:06] I think it's a smart play
[00:24:08] and it and it has flexibility
[00:24:10] so someone can go as deep
[00:24:12] or as light in it
[00:24:13] as they'd like to as an employee.
[00:24:15] So I was going to say that
[00:24:16] how does that work
[00:24:17] at the corporate level?
[00:24:18] Is that all about wellness or what's there?
[00:24:20] I think it's a mix of wellness
[00:24:22] and to be honest with you,
[00:24:23] if I'm if I'm the business owner,
[00:24:25] it's also about utilization.
[00:24:27] And so if I can have people
[00:24:29] be more proactively healthy
[00:24:31] in a perspective based upon real data,
[00:24:33] not just what I think,
[00:24:35] because you and I, I'm sure
[00:24:36] we both know people
[00:24:37] that go to like WebMD
[00:24:39] and self diagnose all of the issues
[00:24:41] that they're right
[00:24:42] that they're having my,
[00:24:43] you know, my big toe hurts.
[00:24:45] And so I look it up
[00:24:46] and WebMD tells me I might have cancer.
[00:24:48] There's a good chance
[00:24:49] it's something else besides cancer
[00:24:51] as to why your big toe hurts.
[00:24:53] But having something
[00:24:54] that's much more specific
[00:24:55] for you in terms of this app,
[00:24:57] I think from an employer standpoint
[00:24:59] helps an individual to know
[00:25:01] is this worthy of me
[00:25:02] visiting a doctor or is it not?
[00:25:05] I have a lot of data points
[00:25:07] that help me to have confidence
[00:25:09] in sort of what
[00:25:10] the recommendations are.
[00:25:11] My health care
[00:25:11] such an interesting area
[00:25:12] just in terms of the amount
[00:25:13] of quantifiable data, which
[00:25:16] as you say, I mean, there are
[00:25:17] obvious privacy concerns about that
[00:25:20] in terms of what those employers
[00:25:21] do with it, etc, etc.
[00:25:23] But the benefits for individuals,
[00:25:25] I think, are just enormous
[00:25:26] just in terms of knowing
[00:25:27] what's going on.
[00:25:28] Absolutely.
[00:25:30] Now, look, you and I, though,
[00:25:31] know as well,
[00:25:31] besides the smaller ones,
[00:25:33] they're some of the big
[00:25:34] tech platforms are here as well
[00:25:36] and showing off
[00:25:37] what they're able to do
[00:25:38] and successfully what they're able to do.
[00:25:42] And I love seeing that as well.
[00:25:43] I mean, Hi Bob is doing
[00:25:45] trying to make a move
[00:25:46] for sure in the US, much North America,
[00:25:48] I should say more broadly.
[00:25:51] It's been a market
[00:25:51] that they haven't been able
[00:25:52] to penetrate as well
[00:25:53] as they would like to,
[00:25:54] and they're really
[00:25:55] making a push for that.
[00:25:56] And I honestly think as a tool
[00:25:59] it's quite impressive.
[00:26:01] Right.
[00:26:01] If you look at it,
[00:26:02] it is it's a pretty impressive tool.
[00:26:04] Yeah, no, I remember
[00:26:04] when it when it launched, actually.
[00:26:06] So it's been interesting
[00:26:07] to track its progress.
[00:26:08] So do I, my friend.
[00:26:09] We're we again.
[00:26:10] We keep coming back.
[00:26:11] It doesn't seem that long ago.
[00:26:14] Surely it can't be.
[00:26:15] You tell me
[00:26:15] has been going for 20 years now.
[00:26:18] Changing changing topic slightly.
[00:26:20] What was your panel about?
[00:26:21] Tell us about your panel.
[00:26:22] Oh, yeah.
[00:26:22] So I had the the privilege
[00:26:24] of being on a moderating a paddle
[00:26:27] around working with a shoestring budget
[00:26:30] for HR.
[00:26:30] I'm going to say broadly for HR initiatives.
[00:26:33] So it did include tech,
[00:26:34] but it's even about hiring headcount
[00:26:37] and for HR process.
[00:26:39] And so if you don't have a budget
[00:26:42] or zero budget
[00:26:44] as some of the organizations here
[00:26:46] was interesting.
[00:26:46] And we we kind of did a
[00:26:48] quick kind of survey in the room.
[00:26:50] And the there were
[00:26:53] the vast majority
[00:26:54] were either a department of one
[00:26:56] or maybe of two
[00:26:58] for their organizations.
[00:26:59] And so they already are working
[00:27:01] very lean and they need to lean on
[00:27:04] tech and and sort of
[00:27:07] historical process
[00:27:09] that they need to just adopt
[00:27:10] for right now
[00:27:11] because they don't have flexibility.
[00:27:13] And so that it was a really robust panel.
[00:27:17] People have opinions.
[00:27:18] I'm you know, that's shocking, right?
[00:27:21] And so some very varied responses
[00:27:25] as to how to handle build
[00:27:26] in a business case,
[00:27:28] how to handle winning
[00:27:30] the right to be heard
[00:27:31] with your finance team
[00:27:32] or with your ops team.
[00:27:34] So, yeah, it was it was really cool.
[00:27:36] And what was there?
[00:27:37] What was the kind of top
[00:27:38] insight for you,
[00:27:38] though, the one that you said,
[00:27:39] well, that's you know,
[00:27:40] I'm glad I heard that.
[00:27:41] What stood out?
[00:27:42] I would say probably
[00:27:45] confidence.
[00:27:48] The underestimation of walking
[00:27:50] in confidently to these conversations,
[00:27:53] we do a whole lot of often
[00:27:56] of sort of process mapping.
[00:27:58] OK, start with your business case
[00:27:59] and section A,
[00:28:01] make sure you talk about this.
[00:28:02] And here's the kind of prep
[00:28:04] conversations you have to have.
[00:28:05] But I think there is still something
[00:28:07] about the soft skill,
[00:28:09] the personal skill
[00:28:10] around confidence development.
[00:28:12] That is important
[00:28:14] in the HR world,
[00:28:15] because we sometimes have touched
[00:28:16] the hot stove once or twice.
[00:28:19] And even in a previous company
[00:28:21] and we we come into a new company
[00:28:23] and we bring that with us.
[00:28:25] And so we assume
[00:28:26] that finance is going to be negative.
[00:28:28] Right. That is interesting.
[00:28:30] Yeah.
[00:28:30] And so we have to get past
[00:28:32] that to say, no, no, no.
[00:28:33] You know what you know.
[00:28:34] So sit in it confidently.
[00:28:36] You're not a jerk,
[00:28:37] but you're sitting in it
[00:28:38] confidently to say,
[00:28:39] here's why I'm making
[00:28:40] this business case.
[00:28:42] This is what I see.
[00:28:43] Yeah.
[00:28:43] And do you think because,
[00:28:45] you know, I think that
[00:28:46] that might be kind of a trait of HR
[00:28:48] when you look at other areas
[00:28:50] of the organization,
[00:28:51] when they're going to ask
[00:28:52] for investment and stuff like that.
[00:28:53] Do you think it comes from people's
[00:28:55] lack of confidence in being able
[00:28:58] to provide comparable data
[00:29:00] to maybe what the sales department
[00:29:03] would put forward for their investment?
[00:29:04] I absolutely think that.
[00:29:06] And I think that too many
[00:29:08] HR people through the years
[00:29:10] have been trained to believe
[00:29:11] that we are a loss leader.
[00:29:14] And that's just not true.
[00:29:15] And I've never thought that
[00:29:17] when I mean, earlier in my career,
[00:29:19] I've sat with a CFO
[00:29:21] who let me know that,
[00:29:23] you know, you're a necessary evil,
[00:29:24] John, an expensive, necessary evil.
[00:29:28] And that's that's
[00:29:29] exactly what he said.
[00:29:30] An expensive, necessary evil.
[00:29:32] And and my response at first,
[00:29:34] I would say was
[00:29:35] was a lack of confidence.
[00:29:37] He caught me off guard
[00:29:39] and I was younger in my career
[00:29:40] and I felt that I almost had to be
[00:29:43] apologetic to him about my space
[00:29:45] in the organization.
[00:29:47] And and I will tell you
[00:29:49] that lasted about an hour
[00:29:51] before I went back
[00:29:53] went back and put it right.
[00:29:55] And that's correct
[00:29:56] and sort of recalibrated.
[00:29:58] So as a final as a final question
[00:30:00] to you, this is obviously
[00:30:02] everything that's going on.
[00:30:03] So you could write a list
[00:30:05] as long as my arm, you know,
[00:30:06] AI, the economy.
[00:30:09] I read somewhere there's more election
[00:30:11] government elections in the world
[00:30:12] this year than ever before.
[00:30:14] So huge amounts of kind of disruption
[00:30:17] and general craziness.
[00:30:19] What do you think
[00:30:20] the future looks like for for HR,
[00:30:22] I suppose, particularly in the context
[00:30:23] of the whole AI thing?
[00:30:25] I would say here
[00:30:26] I'm going to tell you
[00:30:27] what I hope it looks like.
[00:30:29] I'm not because I'm not
[00:30:30] 100 percent confident
[00:30:31] that it will be like
[00:30:32] what I'm going to describe.
[00:30:34] My hope is that we really do
[00:30:36] embrace
[00:30:38] AI machine learning
[00:30:40] tech related support.
[00:30:42] I don't and I literally mean
[00:30:44] embrace, bringing
[00:30:46] bring it into the fold
[00:30:47] with intention
[00:30:48] so that it can help to handle
[00:30:50] these components
[00:30:52] that it's built for repetitive task
[00:30:56] initial
[00:30:58] employee engagements,
[00:30:59] questions, those kinds of things.
[00:31:01] Let that be an initial step.
[00:31:04] It helps the those
[00:31:06] that are on the people side of things
[00:31:08] focus in on developmental work,
[00:31:11] transformative work
[00:31:12] for the organization
[00:31:13] that really does energize us.
[00:31:16] So the fact that we're not doing that
[00:31:19] because we get wrapped up
[00:31:21] in a lot of these process
[00:31:22] related areas is a miss for us.
[00:31:24] So I'm hopeful that we really
[00:31:26] are OK with it
[00:31:27] and stop looking at it
[00:31:28] like I have to justify my existence.
[00:31:30] Who's going to answer
[00:31:31] these leave questions
[00:31:32] if I'm not the one doing it?
[00:31:34] Right.
[00:31:34] We have to stop thinking
[00:31:36] that way.
[00:31:36] The other thing that I would say is
[00:31:38] we're probably going to have
[00:31:39] I'm hopeful that we are going
[00:31:40] to be able to build
[00:31:43] smartly budgeting.
[00:31:46] I I would say
[00:31:47] and I know this isn't true of everyone,
[00:31:50] but the highest percentage
[00:31:51] of HR practitioners still struggle
[00:31:53] to build a relatable budget
[00:31:55] and then share that
[00:31:56] with the leadership
[00:31:58] in a way that is meaningful
[00:31:59] and directly correlated to success.
[00:32:02] John, thank you very much
[00:32:03] for talking to me.
[00:32:04] Thank you for having me, buddy.
[00:32:05] It's always good to be here.
[00:32:07] My thanks to Donald, John
[00:32:09] and the team at Transform
[00:32:10] for hosting me as a podcaster
[00:32:12] and organising such a great event.
[00:32:14] You can follow this podcast
[00:32:16] on Apple podcasts on Spotify
[00:32:19] or via your podcasting app of choice.
[00:32:22] Please also subscribe
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[00:32:28] You can search all the past episodes
[00:32:30] at recruitingfuture.com
[00:32:32] on that site.
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[00:32:39] about everything
[00:32:40] that's coming up on the show.
[00:32:42] Thanks very much for listening.
[00:32:43] I'll be back next time
[00:32:45] and I hope you'll join me.
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