Bullhorn Strikes Back at Indeed

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[00:00:58] The podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:01:12] Yeah! Welcome back to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. That's right, HR's most dangerous podcast kids. I am Chad, past the chaos, Sowash, and on today's show a staffing expert predicts doomsday. McDonald's backs out of AI. Bullhorn says not so fast indeed and Joel is back.

[00:01:34] Well, no, no, not that Joel, not that Joel. Let's do this. Okay kids, so welcome back. Yes, Cheeseman is gallivanting around Singapore this week but I have another Joel in store as a special guest host. So Joel is back, just not the same Joel, right?

[00:01:52] It is actually, let me share this because you got to see the the juice here. Joel Lalji, I say that right? You got it. Yeah, you got not many people can get it right so well done.

[00:02:04] Thank God for LinkedIn's little audio clips. I still got that recording on there, that is awesome. I love it. I don't know why more people don't use that thing. It's helpful. Yeah, so for

[00:02:14] literally first time on the show. Welcome to the show. Really appreciate you coming on and do me a favor just for all of those listeners who don't know who you are. Give them a Twitter bio.

[00:02:24] Yeah, Joel Lalji been in the recruitment space for about a decade and I do a lot of content around the recruitment industry. Also as you can see host a podcast called Recruiting is No Joke and

[00:02:36] doing live events, helping tech brands get their name out there. So I love social media, I love recruitment and I'm happy to be here today. It's excellent man. We are definitely happy to have you. Not to mention you've got great fashion taste. I mean look at that.

[00:02:51] Come on. Look at that. We definitely didn't even plan it but we kind of planned it. You knew I was in Portugal so I was like, why not? Why the hell not? So yeah, so they

[00:03:01] didn't come out of the chamber hot but they still won. I've got to say that again kids, we're watching the Euro 2024 which is happening. Portugal probably has one of the most talented teams that are out there. The question is can they put it together?

[00:03:17] Spain is red hot right now. Germany is doing incredibly well. What do you think? I think Germany already qualified. They're at home. They are looking solid and the last three tournaments they just bombed it so I think they're looking good. I really like

[00:03:33] Gunderland who's their captain. I think he is out of all the leaders out there, he's humble. He's just a hard worker. He's a really good guy to have. I think England not doing well. I think Italy is looking strong so between me, my thought is Italy, Spain,

[00:03:52] Germany because I mean Belgium, they're not looking good. No, they're not looking good at all. Yeah. Well, I'm sticking with the home turf that I'm on. Definitely go Portugal. How wild is it in Portugal during the Euros? Just wild.

[00:04:08] It's amazing. It is amazing and I mean there are a lot of Brits that are down here too so I mean the bars are full no matter if England is playing, Germany is playing,

[00:04:20] Portugal is playing. It doesn't matter. The bars are packed so it's good. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, I watched that. Do you see that Netflix? Do you see that Wembley documentary that's out there right now? I haven't seen that one yet now. Go see it. England fans just getting

[00:04:35] wild and Wembley in 2020. Imagine that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. All right kids, if you're not watching Euro 2024, check it out. Also Copa is happening but it's time for a

[00:04:47] little business. Let's do shout out. So Joel, you got to get a shout out. Who you got to shout out for? Yeah, so I'm going to shout out JobPixel. We've actually got an event coming up

[00:04:57] with JobPixel so if you don't know JobPixel video platform helps with recruitment. I'm hosting an event with the one and only Chad and we're going to be doing, I think we're going to be talking about basically video hacks as recruiters that you can use

[00:05:14] to get more candidates, get your name out there. So I'm going to be doing that free event Thursday, June 27th. If you're interested in that, just go to my profile on LinkedIn. You'll

[00:05:22] see it. Register, get the team there. It's going to be a good time. Yeah, should be fun. I mean, I'm an advisor to JobPixel. Love those guys. Love what they're doing. I mean, the validation with the, you know, ISIMS acquisition a little while ago. I mean,

[00:05:37] I think that really put them on the path and they are on fire right now. So I can't wait. Can't wait to join you and have that discussion. I'm going to go ahead and give a shout out to

[00:05:47] Nvidia. You might've heard of these guys. They passed Microsoft to become the most valuable public company in the world, kids. Jesus. The chip maker passed the three trillion market cap in early June. The company is a fucking rocket ship right now. Just had a 10 to one stock split.

[00:06:07] Thank you. That was good for me. And there's no sight of slowing down. Nvidia has about 80%. That's eight zero percent of the market for AI chips used in data centers. And the Fang companies are gobbling them up faster than, than fricking Nvidia can produce them. I mean,

[00:06:28] the wait list, it's like candy for these companies, man. So what do you think? Is AMD or is Nvidia going to get some competition sometime soon or are they just going to continue to skyrocket? Man, it looks like they're, I think they're going to continue. I mean,

[00:06:42] I, I, I'm thinking about, you know, still investing in Silicon itself. Cause I think that'd be a good, a good gamble, but the amount, how quickly they've grown. And I think AI just becoming the forefront as well, you know, the last 18 months,

[00:06:57] I'd be hard to keep up with them at this point. Yeah. About 18 months ago on the podcast and, and this is the kids don't listen to us for investment. Okay. Don't do it. Don't do it.

[00:07:06] Every now and again, we get lucky, but about 18 months ago, I think I actually said on the show, I'm like, if you're not buying Nvidia, buy Nvidia. I didn't buy it then I waited like

[00:07:14] six months. I was so pissed at myself. Do you, do you, if you calculate like how much more you would have made if you know, no, I don't do that because I'm going to piss myself off.

[00:07:24] But there's one thing that you, you can never lose on my friend and that's free stuff from Chad and cheese. You get a t-shirts from Aaron app beer from Aspen tech labs, craft beer delivered

[00:07:36] to your doorstep whiskey from text kernel who we're going to talk about today. Two bottles of whiskey again, delivered to your door. And if it is your birthday, you can win a bottle of rum

[00:07:52] from Plum. I can feel it all the way down. But you can't, you can't win if you don't play. So you got to go to Chad cheese.com slash free or just go to Chad cheese.com click on

[00:08:04] free in the upper right hand corner and register to win free stuff from Chad and cheese can't be free. Can't be free, man. Especially that kind of stuff. We're talking high quality stuff. Not to mention the t-shirts. It was funny. I brought a bunch of t-shirts here

[00:08:18] to Portugal with me for, you know, my, my friends who are in Portugal and every single one of them were like, wow, this is high quality stuff. Like, yep. It's like a hug from Chad and cheese. And we'll, we'll be distributing some of those get ready kids at

[00:08:31] events that we're going to. We are going to wreck fast, wreck fast, wreck fast, wreck fast in July at Nebworth park and then wreck fast, September 12th and 13th in Nashville. Joel, you've been to the Nashville wreck fast. What, what do you think?

[00:08:48] I loved it. I mean, that was the first conference I'd gone to in years, four years. So definitely my, my type of vibe, definitely festival feel people, people having a good time, a lot more relaxed, get really good conversation,

[00:09:02] good networking. I had a real good time. Nashville is amazing as well. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I want to, I'm looking forward to this year as well. I'll be hosting a, one of the stages in the morning. Sweet. Excited about it. Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

[00:09:16] Hosting is best, right? Hosting versus speaking. It's way better. I think hosting is pretty, pretty awesome. It can be tiring, but it is, it is, it is pretty awesome. Yeah. I mean, so, so kids, if you're not like Joel and I,

[00:09:29] you've never been to a wreck fest, get to a wreck fest. It's literally an all-hand staff meeting in a big field under circus tents. It's literally recruit a palooza. I mean, what whole recruiting teams come to learn bond, connect with peers,

[00:09:44] check out new tech, standardized procedures for, from experts in the space. And if your team isn't learning about new tech and the velocity of the tech today, then get to wreck fest ASAP. Love these guys. There's no other event that's out there.

[00:10:00] That's like it. All the events have different feels, different characteristics, culture, that kind of thing, but nothing, nothing, nothing compared to a wreck fest. Yeah. Well, what other conference can you go to where you can just shorts and a t-shirt

[00:10:13] and then smash some white clothes in between and you're just, you're normal. And so I love it. You're smashing white cloths. Oh, Hey, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta keep the hydration going during the day. I don't want to get too

[00:10:28] out of control, but it's yeah, it was last year. I thought it was great and looking, looking for a bigger one this year as well. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Never worth the network is probably gonna have close to 6,000.

[00:10:39] Nashville, I believe double this year. So 2,500, obviously the U S very, very big. So yeah, I just can't wait. And you know what else I can't wait for? What's that? Topics. That's what baby. Cause this week, I mean, we've been talking about it for a while,

[00:10:57] but I got a recruiter on the show. I also got have some, some footage that we're going to play. And a few weeks ago, we pointed out something big. It's fucking enormous to be quite frank that nobody was talking about during recruit holdings investor meeting, which is available

[00:11:14] via video recording to the public kids. So during that meeting indeed formally announced launching into staffing, not just playing around, but applying the necessary resources to disrupt the staffing industry. We have recorded a couple of different podcasts that dig into the topic,

[00:11:32] including this Monday's episode with house of HR's chief digital officer and staffing leader, Leven von evenhausen plus a great round table with Jim, the indeed whisperer Durbin, Leven myself and Sarah and Victor from Adway. You can find that on ad ways YouTube channel.

[00:11:52] I have a quick video I want to play, and this is from Tim me, hen a staffing pro who spent time at a Deco 11 years at Kelly and was their VP of global

[00:12:03] solutions five years at Kelly OCG where he was VP of global RPO center of excellence and five years at pontoon solutions as a VP and global head of TA innovation. Tim has the experience in

[00:12:20] this chop. So listen up kids. I was glad that he that he that he hooked us up with this. So give it a listen. Hey guys, so here's the deal. There's two companies and one technology that are absolutely going to decimate the staffing and recruitment industry. The two

[00:12:36] companies are linked in and indeed make no mistake. They're laser focused on taking over the end to end hiring capability, and we know they own the candidate market already. So now if they go downstream, they've got a sustainable advantage. Now you add in indeed

[00:12:54] owned by recruit holdings and recruit actually six years ago redefined their industry to say they are not in the staffing business. They're in the matching business, which takes me to the tech that's going to drive the disruption, which is matching algorithms. Now I know matching

[00:13:11] algorithms aren't where they need to be right now, but they're going to get there. You'll layer in the generative AI, which by the way on on linked inside owned by Microsoft who has chat GBT and you see the possibility of some big disruption. I think it's going to

[00:13:28] destroy the staffing industry and recruitment jobs. Wow. Okay, man. So you're a recruiter. You understand the staffing industry. So what do you make of all this? Look, that's one of the strongest predictions I've heard. Usually it's recruiters are going

[00:13:48] to be okay. So to hear completely decimated is crazy. I think for me when I look at it, I look at all the data like indeed has obviously they've got tons, but it's all user generated.

[00:14:00] And this is where with resumes in general or LinkedIn profiles or indeed resumes, it's all user generated. So I think as long as users are updating things and they're putting their right skills and they're putting the right information on there, then it's

[00:14:17] possible. But I don't really know how you get that unless people do a good job with updating that information in the first place. Yeah. And second thought around it is I am going to, I'm super interested to see how they go to market with staffing services

[00:14:36] and how much of that business are staffing companies. Like do you just eat? Do you eat that? Are you know, staffing companies still going to buy big contracts? Same with LinkedIn that whole business is basically recruitment agencies. So you really want to kill your

[00:14:51] biggest clients business. I don't know about that. Yeah. I'd be also interested like how do you sell or change your brand into staffing versus I feel like all of their marketing is around

[00:15:06] candidates and can't, you know, we'll help you get a job. That's what I think of when I think of indeed. I think it's candidate play. So how are they going to shift that branding around?

[00:15:16] So indeed from day one has always been one of the bullies from a sales standpoint, direct to companies. They always have. I was a VP at a direct employers association and we literally were kind of like the guardian for major fortune 500 global VPs. And they would

[00:15:34] come to me and say, Hey, can you tell the guys over to indeed to back the fuck down? I mean, so they've always been aggressive there. And I don't think that that's gone away.

[00:15:43] I think staffing was their biggest business. Then the next thing you know, they've been able to, I mean pretty much take the leads that staffing are putting into their system and they're going direct to clients and they're also going to agencies. So they're doing a couple of different

[00:15:59] things to be able to go around staffing so that again, they can get to this point where staffing is making 20% maybe even more. They can go half of that 10% and that's still 10x

[00:16:11] what they're making today. So yeah, I do agree though the data that they have, the actual candidate data, they're going to have to have enrichment that happens. And I would want it to be

[00:16:25] first and foremost user enrichment where they're just nudging users to come back. Hey, there's a here's a job that you might be qualified for. Oh, by the way, update your information, etc, etc. Here's the thing that really gets me. I've received direct messages from listeners

[00:16:41] that are still inside major staffing organizations, very high level and major staffing organizations that have reached out to validate those staffing organizations are not ready for the shift from the traditional model. And yeah, usually I'm not a fan of Indeed,

[00:16:57] but this disruption forces those old stodgy staffing organizations to evolve or die. So even though it's not going to be easy, I hope Indeed Flex starts making progress quickly because only the nimble will survive and only like really crafty and more nimble and evolved

[00:17:19] recruiters. The best recruiters are going to be at staffing companies, right? And that's what I think the market needs, nimble and fluid. And that's not where staffing is today. It's

[00:17:30] not where it's been for a very long time. So, you know, I really think that if you bring tech to bear, which Ronstadt tried with Monster and failed miserably, Deco did with Hired and Veterine failed miserably, AMS, they're more RPO, but still they're not going to be safe.

[00:17:48] They did with the creation and really just bad management of the hourly platform. So I think most of these staffing companies are trying to run their tech like traditional staffing organizations, which means to me they got to get rid of leadership. You have to have new leaders

[00:18:07] who can evolve with new models. And it doesn't feel to me, and you tell me what you think, it doesn't feel to me like they have the capacity, the capability to actually evolve with the models and the velocity of technology today.

[00:18:23] 100% agree. And I think even just even at an individual level, you know, speaking from individual recruiters is why it's so important to, like you said earlier, if you are not up on

[00:18:32] what tech is coming into the market or you're shying away from it, which I think a lot of large company leaders, I don't think they even have the time to see what is out there and how

[00:18:43] things are evolving. You've got to stay up to date with it and you got to make those changes. I think what's interesting is like Indeed, with those examples that you gave, it's like they're almost doing the reverse. So it's like they got all the traffic,

[00:18:55] they got all of the job board traffic, the job ad revenue coming in and to add staffing on it. But I'm curious with Indeed Flex, like they've been around for like a year. How is that? What's that business like? I don't really see too much about it.

[00:19:09] They were acquired in 2019, the SIFT out of the UK, and they've been kind of like doing these skunk work projects with a lot of different staffing, Indeed staffing orgs. This one obviously, which was one of the biggest segments of the TAM was 127 billion.

[00:19:25] That's more, it's lower level, it's easier because once you start getting into the more complex jobs, it gets much harder to be able to really quickly discern whether people are qualified or not. When you have very little requirements, heartbeat, being able to lift 50

[00:19:43] pounds, show up on time, those types of things, it becomes much easier. That temp staffing side of the house, the Kelly services side of the house that Tim used to work for, that's the low hanging fruit for Indeed. It's $127 billion versus

[00:20:00] the 32 billion in recruitment marketing. I think that's the foundation that they build on and then they start to kind of like, they grow from there. With Daddy Warbucks being recruit holdings, not to mention they're in staffing one of the, I think, top five or at

[00:20:19] least top 10 staffing companies in the world. They know that they want that US market. You think it's going to hire a ton of salespeople? Yeah, no, I think they will. I don't think it's going to be much different than the old

[00:20:32] Indeed model. All they're going to do is say, look, we're going to leverage tech to be able to staff your organization and do it for half the cost of Kelly, of Ronstadt, of a Deco. What do you think? Yeah, and then you just got to play it out,

[00:20:47] right? Three, six, nine months, they get the results and then that's what every other staffing company is going to hope that they don't get the results or they're overlooking something. The only thing I could possibly think about is at an enterprise level,

[00:21:03] I see that I still think there's so much. One of the things I've noticed with staffing companies is release relationships and if they're old school, a lot of the relationships they have are also

[00:21:14] old school and I would imagine that they're less likely to even be looking into technology as well. That would be the only thing is like the relationship management of it, right? Yeah, I think from a velocity standpoint, all that's going to go away and this is going

[00:21:28] to become more transactional than anything else, especially on the temp side, right? We're not talking about management. We're not talking about management that's going to senior management. We're talking about temp that's $127 billion. So yeah, I think the relationship

[00:21:41] side of the house, it's going to turn more into transactional and that again is because of the power of technology today. It's almost like an Amazon model for hiring. Add your cart. You like that? Yeah, yeah. Boost, right?

[00:21:59] All right. So this conversation is not stopping because we have more news in this segment. We will be right back. Okay, listener, how can you help your employees become more productive? I have answers. How about automating manual and repetitive tasks, giving meaning to data,

[00:22:23] then allowing that data to actually drive decisions and how about matching people to your jobs quicker? Well, wait, the Chattin' Cheese has a new LLM? No, Cheeseman. I'm talking about Tex Kernel. Okay, that makes more sense. What I'm hearing is the groundbreaking concept of, wait for it,

[00:22:46] simplicity. Seriously though, seriously, Tex Kernel cuts through the complexities like a tortilla chip through some hot nacho cheese. Really? Nacho references already. Anyways, Tex Kernel brings efficiency and productivity to your operations. Tex Kernel seamlessly unifies your tools and data to drive

[00:23:08] efficiencies and success. Tex Kernel is creating new opportunities for your recruitment journey, kind of like adding guac to my barbacoa burrito. Oh my God. How about extracting meaningful insights from data? I mean, that's something. Swiftly matching

[00:23:26] people with jobs, automating repetitive tasks. Who knew such advanced concepts were even possible in the land of human resources? We did, Chad. We did. Dude, wrap it up. I'm a little hungry. Imagine that. Okay, listener, get ready to use today's tech to drive efficiencies and

[00:23:48] productivity. Visit TexKernel.com. That's T-E-X-T-K-E-R-N-E-L.com. Nachos. All right. Okay, so this is a pretty big one. This week Bullhorn acquired Tex Kernel, an industry leader in sourcing AI solutions, better known as one of the biggest

[00:24:14] vendors in the world for parsing and matching, which is not an easy fucking business. Plus, longtime sponsor of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Tex Kernel's, they're HQs in Amsterdam and they power over 2,000 customers globally. And these customers, for the most part,

[00:24:31] are big vendors that we all know and love, that we think are doing the parsing and the matching. They're not. Tex Kernel is the one who's doing it behind the scenes, including eight of the top 10 staffing agencies worldwide. We're just talking about staffing.

[00:24:46] A longtime trusted partner to the staffing and recruitment industry and one of the companies who have performed the heavy lift for many of the biggest tech platforms in the industry. So before we get into comments, Joel, let's welcome back the staffing and tech leader,

[00:25:04] Tim Meehan, for his thoughts. All right, guys, so here's the deal. Years ago, I said the staffing companies had to become technology companies and I've worked for them and they don't understand. And now with this acquisition from a Bullhorn buying Tex Kernel,

[00:25:25] holy crap, these staffing companies and a lot of other techs are all using Tex Kernel to do their matching. Is Bullhorn going to pull it off the market? And you want Tex Kernel,

[00:25:37] you want a matching algorithm, you got to use Bullhorn. That's going to be a big game changer for the staffing industry because if they're not using Bullhorn, they're going to have to. And if they are using Bullhorn, quite frankly, they've got them by the short hairs.

[00:25:53] And it's going to force, it's like, what is that Japanese term? It's like it's going to force them to cut their belly open. Either they become subservient to the Bullhorns of the world or they become pure plain niche and they don't even try and do automated matching.

[00:26:10] So there's a choice, Joel. There's a choice. You can continue to stay with Indeed or you can go with Bullhorn. Sounds like, you know, they're going to have tech. It could help out. What do you think? I mean, as a former Bullhorn user,

[00:26:25] I feel bad for all the people who are going to have to have to use Bullhorn with that prediction because I look, I think how you add on these AI tools and integrate is huge. Just in general,

[00:26:39] I think any AI tool, it all comes down to adoption and how people use them. And that's always a big question for me. Like anytime I hear AI conversations, I don't even know if people are aware like the difference between automation and then AI, how to use tools,

[00:26:57] how to use these tools anyway. But I think it seems like a great move for Bullhorn. And obviously for TechSkirl, it's going to obviously open up more clients as well. But I don't know, I feel like Bullhorn is kind of has a better deal out of that one.

[00:27:13] What do you think? Well, first and foremost, I gotta say congrats to Harard and the TechSkirl team. This is the type of tech that has performed, as I said earlier, some of the heaviest technical lifts in the history of

[00:27:26] recruiting, which is why there aren't many successful companies in the space. A quick and brief history of TechSkirl, in 2015, CareerBuilder acquired 60% of TechSkirl. And they liked them so much that CareerBuilder, then owned by daddy Warbucks Apollo,

[00:27:45] went all in and they acquired TechSkirl in 2019. Then Apollo started selling off bits and pieces of CareerBuilder and TechSkirl was sold to main capital in September of 2020. Then TechSkirl expanded their footprints into the US by acquiring parsing and matching

[00:28:03] Powerhouse Sovereign in November of 2021. Now, I'm saying all of this because it's obvious that TechSkirl is appetizing for many companies. The question is, can Bullhorn pull off an acquisition and technical execution of this size when players like CareerBuilder

[00:28:21] and Apollo just f**king fumbled the ball? The execution will be f**king massive and I'm not 100% sure that Bullhorn can pull it off, but I hope they do. To Tim's point, in our earlier Indeed staffing conversation, if Bullhorn isn't positioning themselves as an

[00:28:39] Indeed killer, they're doing it wrong. Staffing organizations spend tens of millions of dollars annually to attract candidates and many of those candidates are already in their goddamn resume database. So now again, if Bullhorn is smart, they will use the parsing and matching

[00:28:58] in every resume in a staffing firm's database. As soon as a rec is posted, they'll match it to those candidates with a high degree of match. Then they should automatically be invited to apply through email, text or whatever messaging they choose. That will then lessen the need for

[00:29:16] Indeeds, the Indeeds of the world plus Bullhorn can reach out to candidates that are going to nudge them to add skills, expertise and just build up their profile. But like I said,

[00:29:31] it's going to be a massive undertaking and I'm just not sure. I'm sure we'll talk to Bullhorn, but I'm just not sure they're up to this task. It is big, not to mention will they make Text Kernel under Bullhorn or will they keep it as a separate product

[00:29:49] because they already have a humongous portfolio and part of that portfolio are other applicant tracking systems. It's going to be an interesting dance. What do you think? Stig Brodersen So you're saying then Bullhorn basically uses all the resumes

[00:30:07] in all of their clients databases as well so then when you open up a rec, it will match from not just your own database that you have but like everybody's, right? Is that what I'm hearing? Jeffery T

[00:30:30] Decoes or the Ronstads out there would do something like that. I think they have big enough databases where they don't have to. It'll just be forced to be able to go into their database and the candidates authority have there. Stig Brodersen Look, I just,

[00:30:43] the one thing I wonder with everything right now is in general, like just outside of even staffing and recruitment, in general everybody's mailboxes are being blown up. Like I just, and candidates are the same way. They're getting all of this. So I just wonder if the challenge

[00:31:01] coming up is actual recruitment and how do you stand out, right? Because I think finding candidates to me, it's, you're finding data nowadays is kind of easier and you can do it pretty quick but it's like reaching people at getting good with messages. Like you said, texting, calling,

[00:31:22] that to me is just, I don't see how we don't create a big problem with just candidates in general or like what happens when candidates who will already, like I do a lot of social media

[00:31:33] content. One of the biggest, one of the points that goes viral all the time is if I bash particularly LinkedIn and Indeed, if I say are you sick of LinkedIn and Indeed, here are three other platforms, those videos always go viral. So I'm like,

[00:31:44] do these kind of tools, they just compounding that? And then how do you, great, you found the person. How do you really even get a hold of them nowadays? That's what I'm wondering

[00:31:53] over the next year, 18 months. Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, first and foremost, ZipRecruiter had it right years ago and then they just went off the rails on the one IPO.

[00:32:04] ZipRecruiter had it right. Way back in the day. Not lately. What they did was they actually had this model where they would go into their database and they would literally, they would invite individuals who matched up against the requirements of a requisition,

[00:32:22] right? Made a lot of sense. They were looking to do and they never did was just create slates, the ones that are higher match in quality than just deliver 10, right? Instead of delivering 30 or 50 or 300 to a recruiter, which is not manageable. I really think that if

[00:32:42] you get a really good score match up against the actual requirements and what the skill sets that you need, what can happen at that point is a recruiter gets more time to actually focus on interacting with that individual. Right? Yeah. One of the things right now is

[00:32:59] way too much in ministrivia, not to mention candidates are going into black holes because recruiters don't have enough time to respond to all of them. And in this case, if you get 10 or 15, you can actually take the time to be more human with those individuals. So yeah,

[00:33:17] I think they've already applied for a job within your portfolio of companies. So more than likely you have contact information and if they're smart, they're getting phone number, they're getting messenger, whatever their chosen form of communication is, and they're

[00:33:34] going to be reaching out to them. Then you've got, then you've got, and this is the fun part to get into the chat bots of the world, the talk pushes, the paradoxes and whatnot that can actually

[00:33:44] help nudge candidates not just for the interview, but also for that first day of work and to get feedback and whatnot. And from my understanding and talking to Adam Gottson when he was at CLO,

[00:33:59] not just now he's at Paradox, but when he was at CLO billing these systems, their ghosting went down dramatically just from those little nudge messages, which is pretty amazing. So I think there's great opportunity here. I want to know with this validation of skills,

[00:34:16] because I know the skills-based hiring keeps on coming up, but I'm like, this is the other issue which I see is you've on the other end, you've got candidates now that have tools as well that can make perfect resumes, they can match up to the job.

[00:34:30] There at some point where the skills validation and then how are you defining what skills are for jobs? How do you actually, but for some of these jobs, you really need skills as well. Maybe that's it. Yeah, these companies have to understand they've been talking about skills-based

[00:34:47] hiring forever and they don't know what the hell they're talking about because first and foremost, they don't know what skills it actually takes within that job because what they haven't done is they haven't actually taken a look at the tasks that are performed

[00:35:00] by that job on a daily basis. When you do that, you understand that a job is literally just an amalgamation of tasks. Can the individual perform those tasks and then what are skills that are tied to those tasks? There's tech out there today that can do that. Tadeo,

[00:35:19] which again I'm an advisor for just to be transparent out there, but they are more performance-driven. You have to demonstrate that you can perform that task in a simulation before boom, you get that skill. It's becoming more readily available and understandable,

[00:35:36] but the companies have to do the job upfront of even understanding what the job looks like for the person who's doing it task by task by task and then they can understand the skills. Until then, they're literally just bullshitting everybody I believe.

[00:35:52] They got defined skills and then they need it. I think right now, they've got to get buy-in from candidates to get that data even. I like the idea of inviting people to jobs. I like that

[00:36:03] way, like you said, when that idea first came out, I get invited all the time by LinkedIn to do different things and it's so off every single time. I think they got to figure out a

[00:36:13] way of how do we gamify getting the right data even from candidates? Otherwise, you're just going to end up with just wrong matches on both ends and then people go, yeah, it doesn't even

[00:36:24] work. LinkedIn's matching tech is shit. It's so bad. They have more data on me than anybody does. They should be able to match me up very well. They do a shit job. I get host

[00:36:37] of Olive Garden because I have podcast host in my bio. I'm a hostess at Olive Garden. But that's what I was saying. This is where I think one of the things I noticed with any kind

[00:36:49] of AI tools, one of the things I've noticed really quickly is you have one shot with users like myself, recruiters and if they don't see it saves time, money or it works, you miss in that one shot. They just write you off as it not working altogether.

[00:37:05] This is why it's like you got to deliver on that. Yeah, you do. You got to remember though, AI is a puppy. It's going to piss on the carpet a few times. You got to give it a little grace, but here's where TA leaders need to stiffen their

[00:37:20] spine and all of these processes are going to be happening behind the scenes and they're going to be delivered up to the recruiters. This should not be a decision made by the recruiters.

[00:37:35] It should be made by leadership. Now, recruiters should be a part of the process to ensure that it actually becomes more fluid. We get the best data to be able to train on the right data

[00:37:46] for the right jobs in the right positions, in the right regions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, we can't, and I'll just give you an example. At Ronstadt, we had so many people who had LinkedIn seats, who weren't even using LinkedIn

[00:38:01] seats. And we were pushing them off. Oh, we almost had a fucking riot. And it's like, look, you guys aren't even using this and money's being spent. Right? Crazy. Yeah. So it's just like,

[00:38:14] you have to stiffen your spine. And I was there and I was like, fuck those guys. I don't care. We can find new recruiters if they can't use the tools that you're giving them.

[00:38:24] And then they bitch when you take them away because they're not using them. My point is leadership has to lead. Right. And they're not leading today. Period. Yeah. No, I agree. 100%. Well, that being said, I got to say.

[00:38:40] So who likes Swedish meatballs? Everybody likes Swedish meatballs. Well, this from the Dallas morning news, IKEA, the Swedish retailer lost 62,000 workers in 2022 equating to about a third of its workforce, which cost the company millions in loss of productivity and retraining.

[00:39:01] I guess the free Swedish meatballs just wasn't enough of a perk. What did IKEA do to stop the bleeding? Listen to this. This is going to blow your mind. They boosted pay. They increased flexibility for frontline employees and they used emerging technologies to make things easier on

[00:39:18] workers and their customers, which dropped them from losing a third of their employees down to a quarter of them, their employees. Now it does get worse when you look at retail industry numbers. McKinsey and Company Research cites that retail jobs are often marked by low pay,

[00:39:35] go figure, erratic schedules and irate customers, which helps explain why the quit rate for retail workers is more than 70% higher than all other U.S. industries. So Joel, does work in retail have to suck? I mean. It does. It's a rite of passage. It has to. The unions

[00:39:57] are having a moment right now, though. Could having a union in retail actually help? I think the problem is that with retail jobs is you just view them as, and I think how most people think about retail jobs, I would imagine it's seasonal.

[00:40:10] It's usually you're taking the job because you've got something else going on. You're a college kid in summer. Maybe you're going through a job transition and you're just taking the job.

[00:40:19] I think it's almost like a shift in mindset with the job as a whole. I can't imagine too many people going, yeah, I want to be a cashier. That's my career, right? I can't imagine that. So I'm like. But some people it is. Some people it is though.

[00:40:33] It does become a career for some people for sure. Yeah. I mean, look, to me this stuff, sometimes it's just like common sense of like, I'm like, at what point do you become disconnected to just normal people that you don't see that making people's lives easier in

[00:40:49] a job, paying them well and then flexibility. When you get disconnected that you don't get, that's what people are looking for. This is where it's like you got a group of executives off and they're not even looking at what most normal people would want.

[00:41:04] And then they're like, yeah, we figured it out and it works. I'm like, is it just common sense? That's why I just don't care. It's ridiculous. And I got to say, human resource professionals out there,

[00:41:15] when this happens, it's your fault. Okay? The C-suite needs to understand attrition impacts revenue. Yeah. Waiting on positions to be filled being short staff impacts revenue and increases the likelihood of others leaving, which impacts revenue. Underpaid workers are not happy workers.

[00:41:34] Unhappy workers create unhappy customers. Unhappy customers don't come back, which impacts revenue. Unhappy workers means low productivity, which impacts revenue. So all of these things will happen if you don't have systems training and processes in place to make happy employees.

[00:41:54] Oh yeah. And pay them well by the way. Find your problem, fall in love with that problem, look for products and services to help you fix the problem and then go confidently with

[00:42:05] a stiffened spine to ask for more fucking budget because guess what? All of this impacts revenue. So don't be happy with the broken system because you have quote unquote limited budget. That's a total and complete cop out. Do your research and understand how your problems impact revenue

[00:42:24] and the C-suite will listen, especially if you can demonstrate the problem and present solutions. Ask for the budget. Amazon reported, I shouldn't say reported a letter, an internal letter popped up that actually showed that they lost $8 billion in revenue due to a attrition alone,

[00:42:47] attrition alone. I read, I think it was maybe a year and a half ago that they are to the point in some locations that they've hired like 80% of people in town. So they're out of the workforce. They're literally burning through the workforce.

[00:43:06] I think that one of their solution, I mean, I know a couple people who own those Amazon delivery businesses and it's, you talk to someone who owns one of those businesses, the delivery isn't the business, you're a staffing company and it's like they've gone,

[00:43:18] it's so hard to find delivery drivers and this people who own these businesses, they spend 90% of their time trying to staff reliable people on razor thin margins. And I think at some point, again, it's flexibility and pay right now are on the top of everyone's

[00:43:34] mind. And if you were not filling those jobs, you've got to think about, I mean, I love that technology piece. Like I'm just thinking in my head, like what kind of AI could help people in retail and make their jobs easier? You know, my mind goes to like

[00:43:49] robots and things right away and like having that as a help, like imagine a robot to take care of angry customers, that'd be amazing. But like you said, this guy, I mean the guy I

[00:43:58] read too, the founder of IKEA is like the eighth richest person in the world. So I'm like, yeah, come on, don't tell me that you're hurting in any way. It's crazy. Money's going up top, man. Money's going on top. We talked about Walmart the other day who

[00:44:13] maxed out bonuses for somebody who was working there for one to five years at $350 a year. Are you fucking kidding me? I mean, they have over $158 billion in profits for a year. Tanner Iskra And ridiculous. Jeff Sarris And yet, and yet, I mean, it was just,

[00:44:29] this is the ridiculous stuff. So TA, again, this is your fault because you are not going to the C-suite and helping them to understand that all of these things are negatively impacting revenue or will because it doesn't happen all at once, right? You don't burn

[00:44:47] through 80% of a workforce all at once, right? But when you do, holy shit, you're screwed. So you've got to focus on the losses and the perspective gains. And as we're talking about losses, how about IBM's recent AI loss? We'll be right back.

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[00:46:04] pandologic.com. That's pandologic.com. All right, supersize this. Supersized AI, I guess. I don't think so. This one from The Verge McDonald's will reportedly remove, yes you heard that, remove the AI from over 100 restaurant drive-throughs after partnering with

[00:46:29] IBM. You might've heard of them in 2021, although it's not clear why Mickey D's is ending the IBM deal. It told Restaurant Business Magazine it was testing whether the voice ordering chat bot could speed up service and that the test left it confident,

[00:46:48] left them confident that a voice ordering solution for drive-through will be a part of our restaurant's future. But it sounds like IBM's chat bot got stale under the heat lamps. Joel, McDonald's reportedly has 14,000 franchise locations in the U.S. alone. So 100

[00:47:09] locations was really kind of like a sample size, small sample size. Do you think there's another AI powerhouse waiting in the wings for this contract? Honestly, I wouldn't surprise if they were just building in-house at this point. Like, I mean, I like, I like. There's no way.

[00:47:24] You don't think so? Like a small McDonald's AI business? No. They're gonna have a vendor do it. I guarantee you there's no way that McDonald's, the burger place is going to be doing AI. They've switched from focusing on Big Macs to just now they're an AI company.

[00:47:42] No, look, I mean, that technology, I mean even in that article it said the technology is not going away. It makes a lot of sense. So I wonder if they just tested it out.

[00:47:52] Maybe they're getting some of the glitches out of the way. But yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that they're not gonna roll out another vendor or someone else is gonna take that business.

[00:48:03] I just, I haven't been in McDonald's for years, but I do remember last time I went, AI would have done a lot better just with the whole process. There's no doubt in my mind.

[00:48:13] I'm excited. I love that. I love the voice technology too with AI. Like some of the emergent use cases for it are great. And I think this one makes a lot of sense. Yeah, no, it's really cool. I remember working the Burger King drive-through when I was a

[00:48:29] teenager and compared to all of the other jobs in fast food, I fucking love that job. So it kind of sucks that the human interaction is really going to be taken away because that's what that is. I don't know. I think it's gonna happen. There's no question.

[00:48:43] You take a look at McDonald's, they've gone to the touch screens and you order from a touch screen and then you go pick up and who knows, they might have a Flippy in the back doing

[00:48:52] fries and burgers and then they have AI doing that. I mean, that's really what they're looking to do is come to a self-contained automated restaurant where you have very little human interaction whatsoever, which to me is not a great experience,

[00:49:08] but it's fucking McDonald's, man. I mean, it's not a great experience anyway. I think it's sad in some ways, but what I have noticed across the board is I think because of

[00:49:20] those other things we were talking about earlier with like low pay and all of the things that come with retail, I think you end up with just nowadays a better experience and a lot less

[00:49:34] headaches than you get with a real person because I think in those jobs right now, people aren't taking ownership. And I think this is just something that's just shifted in society when you look at people who have a lot of the jobs unfortunately,

[00:49:47] that burned out, they're not getting paid a lot of money, there's inflation going on. It's usually just a crazy environment and I think as a customer, it makes a lot of sense. Even though it's sad that you have that human interaction at the end of the day,

[00:50:01] I don't know if I'm necessarily going to McDonald's for the human interaction anyway. I'm going there for the quick food. It's just debts there. Whereas like a fine dining experience, a whole different thing, right? Trans fats, baby. Trans fats. That's what it's

[00:50:15] all about. I'm going there to get fat. That's why I'm going. But yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And this is where I think recruitment industry as a whole, if you can take

[00:50:25] orders for food, maybe there's some things in recruitment that some of this voice AI technology can do as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, it's coming out and it's coming out fast. I got to say,

[00:50:36] Joel, thanks for coming on to the show. Filling in for Cheeseman this week. If somebody wants to find you, the podcast or wherever, where would you send them? I just go to my website, therealistrecruited.com. Podcast pops up right away and I know my socials are linked to

[00:50:54] that as well. So come find me guys. Thanks for having me on. And yeah, I'm excited to see you guys too at RecFest coming up soon. So see you soon in real life again. Can't wait. Hey,

[00:51:05] well, and listener next week, Joel will be back behind the mic with I'm sure a Chipotle burrito bowl and a smile. We out. Thank you for listening to what's it called? Podcast, the Chad, the cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology.

[00:51:33] But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, but one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho,

[00:51:56] be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chat cheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. So weird. We out.

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