S2E3- In Conversation with Grief Coach Andrea Turnbow

00:00:04 Speaker 1: Hello, dear listeners. Welcome back to grief entangled. We are going to continue our season in which we have invited various grief educators from different parts of the world. And today we have one such amazing grief educator all all the way coming from Arizona, U SI would like to start with shortly introducing her and her name is Andrea. 00:00:27 Speaker 1: And Andrea is a founder of Autumn Winds coaching and is a certified grief educator and a trauma and a resilience coach. After experiencing a miscarriage during her first pregnancy. She, she actually set out to become a grief support provider that she and her husband needed at their difficult time. 00:00:46 Speaker 1: She guides anyone who has been impacted by grief loss through their unique grief journey. So that's basically a very short introduction and I would, I would actually bring Andrea now on the stage. Thank you, Andrea for coming on to our show and I warmly welcome you for this episode. 00:01:11 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank 00:01:12 Speaker 2: you so much for having 00:01:12 Speaker 1: me. Thank you. Thank you. 00:01:15 Speaker 1: So, Andrea. Um How have you been today? 00:01:21 Speaker 2: Oh, great. Um Yeah, so it's morning over here for me. So I just got back from dropping my son off at school. And so this is, this is the kick off to my day. So I'm 00:01:31 Speaker 1: excited and I'm looking forward to going to bed just after this call. So I'm right on the other side of the world. Yeah, 00:01:40 Speaker 2: we're on very different timelines right now. 00:01:42 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's give it a start. Andrea. So, um, 00:01:48 Speaker 1: of course, we are here for a very specific topic that we want to discuss, right? Grief and resilience. And you talk about resilience as well, which, which I also in, you know, in my positioning, I talk about resilience a lot, right? I would like to start asking you start with, with this first question basically, you know, and the most important question I think is what is your grief story? What is your story? 00:02:13 Speaker 2: Right? Um So, so I have had a quite a few different um grief experiences in my life. But the, the one that has really given me purpose behind uh becoming a grief educator is my first pregnancy ending in miscarriage. Um Yeah, it was and it has been such a multifaceted grief journey um with so many unexpected turns. So the most 00:02:40 Speaker 2: traumatic part for me was the miscarriage itself and the aftermath for the following couple months. Um But then my grief turned into something else completely when I became pregnant with my son and has evolved so many times over the years in different forms. Um 00:02:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, since my husband and I were one of the last ones in our friend group to get pregnant, I knew about the possibility of miscarriage. So I feel like I was prepared more than most people. Um, 00:03:12 Speaker 2: but nothing really prepares you for going through it. And I, yeah. No. And I quickly learned that 00:03:19 Speaker 2: most, everyone around us weren't prepared either and, um, even medical staff. So, um, so that's kind of why I set out on the journey that I set out on to become a grief educator and just, um, be there for the people that are going through this and experiencing it. So they don't feel like they have to go through it alone. Um, and also just educate people on, on what it is and hopefully also, 00:03:47 Speaker 2: um, you know, get in touch with medical providers and, um, medical staff and, you know, just kind of tell my story and, and, and hope they hear it. 00:04:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I can. Uh, it's a very sensitive topic, you know, this pregnancy loss. Uh, yeah, definitely. So, how many years back, uh, is that, uh, loss that you had? 00:04:12 Speaker 2: So that was, um, eight years actually coming up on, uh, nine years ago now, 00:04:18 Speaker 1: nine years ago, I think, uh, that, that is still impacting you, that it still has an effect on you and that is still driving you the, what you are doing. So we can imagine, you know, that short period that you had, you know, the pregnancy period. And so it is now driving your purpose behind you. So I can see that, you know, 00:04:39 Speaker 1: uh every loss can have a meaning behind it and probably that's what the meaning that you are you are looking for, right? So that brings me to the next question. Uh Andrea, so why do you think there is this need, specific need, you know, mainly because you are mainly working with a woman and uh you know, her family is going through pregnancy and miscarriage, uh no loss, right? 00:05:05 Speaker 1: So why do you think there is a need for that? All right, I understand that definitely this loss is very different but how this loss is different than any other kind of loss. 00:05:18 Speaker 2: Yeah. So um 00:05:20 Speaker 2: overall, we have become such a grief illiterate society like so much so that people don't know how to navigate their grief in the face of death or tragedy and people's support systems don't know how to help them through their grief. So we're all kind of out here winging it. Um And so 00:05:42 Speaker 2: that's where, you know, I feel like grief educators come in is um and grief coaches and trauma coaches is, is um a lot of us have become, you know, you're like yourself included, a lot of us have become grief um educators and coaches uh because we have experienced something and we, we do get it, you know, we do understand 00:06:04 Speaker 2: and um in terms of pregnancy loss, there's been such a stifling taboo on the topic that the person or the couple experiencing the miscarriage feels like they're going through it completely alone. Um, in my experience, I was lucky enough to have a wonderful support system and my husband and my family. Um, 00:06:25 Speaker 2: but after the initial support wears off and people move on, you're like, well, I'm still hurting, I'm still angry, I'm still triggered. Um, and I don't know what to do. And so at that point, I, I really feel like, I mean, at any point, grief educators and grief coaches can come in, but I really feel that's the point where when people's support systems start to 00:06:51 Speaker 2: move on with their lives. Yeah. And you know, the help and support kind of starts to dwindle. Um, you know, that's where I really want to be there to support people who are in that space. Um, because I remember when I was in that space, I just didn't know what to do and I didn't know where to go. Um 00:07:13 Speaker 2: And then, you know, there's also the, it's kind of a harsh but honest truth is nobody really knows what you're going through unless they've gone through it themselves. Um So unless they've had that shared experience, they can't fully understand and, um, oftentimes they will say or do really hurtful things. Um, 00:07:35 Speaker 1: and unknowingly most of the times 00:07:38 Speaker 2: unknowingly. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the times I give people the benefit of the doubt. Um, 00:07:44 Speaker 2: that a lot of times it's coming from a place of just, uh, not knowing what to do, not knowing what to say. Um, or they say something they think is out of love or they think is helpful and it actually, yeah, and in fact, it isn't. And so there's a lot of terms and a lot of phrases, especially when it comes to miscarriage and pregnancy loss that people say to the grieving parents 00:08:11 Speaker 2: that, you know, again giving the benefit of the doubt that they might think is helpful and it is absolutely not helpful. 00:08:19 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes there is also a timeline. Uh they know that they subconsciously believe that OK, this is the time and I think after this time 00:08:29 Speaker 1: uh normally uh they should be fine, but it is not a timeline that everyone follows, right? Everyone has their own grief timeline, right? And uh they can't be judged with the same kind of uh you know, uh measuring tape, you know, uh the timeline for the timeline. So uh and that's where they say and do things sometimes out of concern sometimes uh you know, out of just uh not aware of what to say, 00:08:54 Speaker 1: they say some things which, which, which, which do hurt. So, yes, definitely. And uh yeah, and this kind of thing is, is also very common uh in different other type of losses, which is also quite evident in the pregnancy loss and, uh, and the miscarriage, you know, some, some kind of things like, you know, you can always have a next time and all those things like, you know, uh, this might be the typical things right, that you might be hearing and 00:09:21 Speaker 1: sometimes they don't want to hear, the mother does not want to hear that right. I can very well understand that. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for elaborating that. Uh Andrea. So, um you know, um we also touched upon this actually, you know, the typical thing, you know, what is associated with the miscarriage or pregnancy loss. And, 00:09:42 Speaker 1: you know, we have also, you know, our grief educator program, David talks about, you know, our ambitious loss, right? And can you explain our, uh you know, our listeners about how, what is an ambitious loss and how, how is actually pregnancy or miscarriage loss is comes under that category? So, 00:10:02 Speaker 2: yeah. Um Of course, yeah. So, ambiguous grief and ambiguous loss um is basically the concept that is any type of grief that feels unresolved, um that doesn't have closure. And so a lot of time this, this is associated with miscarriage and pregnancy loss because um 00:10:27 Speaker 2: you there was, I mean, you didn't get to meet the baby. Um a lot of times um depending on the situation or how early it was, um there's no funeral, there's no ceremony, there's no, there's just no closure. And um so, so the parent themselves, you know, the mother or the father or both, you know, they're going through this, you know, they, they might even question like, wow. Is, 00:10:55 Speaker 2: should I be feeling bad about this because, you know, they, they weren't even really here, they weren't born, you know. And so the, the lost parent themselves has these questions and so they're experiencing this, um, experiencing ambiguous grief but a lot of the time I see it 00:11:12 Speaker 2: um coming out kind of and manifesting through their support systems. So, you know, their friends, families, uh family, loved ones, um 00:11:25 Speaker 2: I think that's the hardest thing for people to understand is that just because they had a miscarriage, it doesn't mean that it's not that big of a deal. And so I think a lot of people don't understand that concept. So I see ambiguous grief and, um, you know, it's, 00:11:44 Speaker 2: uh it's process coming out in the support system. And again, that's where they can really say insensitive and hurtful things, you know, like, um you should move on already or you should be grateful for, you know, whatever you should be grateful for the kid that you do have or you should be grateful for whatever, you know, um which those kinds of statements completely dismiss the parents feelings. So, 00:12:13 Speaker 2: um that's where I tend to see ambiguous grief coming out a lot because the parent, the lost parent usually lands on. Um, you know what? No, this is a big deal. This, this is a big deal. Um And I wanna, I wanna honor this loss and I want to, you know, I want to grieve this properly. 00:12:32 Speaker 2: What happens is it's really hard with this type of ambiguous grief is when 00:12:37 Speaker 2: a lot of people in your support system, um don't feel the same way. Um 00:12:44 Speaker 2: And so sometimes again, sometimes it comes out of a place of love of, you know, where a family member might want to just see you get better. They, they don't, they don't want to see you sad anymore. They don't want to see you. Um, you know, depressed if you're, if you're not getting out of bed or if you're not getting back to work, you know, 00:13:06 Speaker 2: they want to see you kind of getting back to the life you had. Yeah. Um And they don't realize that there really isn't going back to that. You know, it's just, it's, it's living a completely new normal. 00:13:21 Speaker 2: Um And so that's what, that's what I like to do as a grief educator is. Um, you know, kind of come in and help those family members, um kind of realize that and say like you said, there's no timeline for this. Um There is, yeah, there's no rushing 00:13:40 Speaker 2: uh the grief process. Um And, you know, just kind of helping them see that just because you didn't see 00:13:49 Speaker 2: the baby or you didn't have any closure. Um doesn't mean they feel the same way. And um 00:13:57 Speaker 2: so yeah, so that's where I see a lot of ambi ambiguous grief coming to my 00:14:02 Speaker 1: Yeah. And yeah, it is also very hard to see because as, as exactly you mentioned right there is sometimes uh you know, no funeral or no body that you know, so, so it's hard to see why it is such a grief, right? That's what uh 00:14:20 Speaker 1: and you also mentioned about, you know, the things that people say, you know, one of the thing that, you know, because I, we also went in, in our marriage, one miscarriage uh which was at a very early uh uh you know, part of the pregnancy. Uh But, but yes, we also heard like things like, you know, many, many couples face this these days. 00:14:44 Speaker 1: So it is not a big deal but you don't want to be among those many, right? You never want to be among those many. Uh So that's why it hurts, right? So, 00:14:56 Speaker 1: but yeah, that, that, that's, that's what, you know, I I just got reminded about my, my uh experience with uh you know, with the miscarriage that we had uh long back uh was around 2014 or so, somewhere around. But yes. All right. Um So my next question to you, Andrea, is this uh you know, how can we have a, how can we build a support system, you know, for this specific loss? 00:15:24 Speaker 1: Because it is a very, very common loss but it is, it is a reality, it is a common loss and there is a lot of grief involved as well in it. You know, not only mother but also father. 00:15:35 Speaker 1: Ok, so how can we have a, a support system for this particular loss so that people are able to, you know, 00:15:45 Speaker 1: are, are, are enough supported during this, during this journey, 00:15:49 Speaker 1: so that it does not affect their overall life and later on and the pregnancies that follow. Right. 00:15:57 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:15:58 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the most important thing is that um we just need to be able to provide a space where they can feel comfortable to open up and get vulnerable about their lost um and connect with people like myself or other lost parents who understand what they're going through. 00:16:15 Speaker 2: Um Right now I'm seeing a lot of uh men talking about their partner's miscarriage experiences and they're starting podcasts about it and, and they're opening up about it. And I think that's amazing because um while we focus a lot, you know, on the mother, um 00:16:36 Speaker 2: the father, you know, like you just mentioned, you know, uh I is going through it too, you know, and they might have, um their experience is a little bit different. Um 00:16:47 Speaker 2: And it, you know, that's just the way it, it, it works, you know. And so, um I also like to help guide um fathers lost fathers through this as well because um 00:17:01 Speaker 2: they're often, you know, thinking that, oh, I need to be, I need to be strong. I need to be, you know, I need to 00:17:09 Speaker 2: stuff this down. Um, you know, I need to take care of her and then, and then that, that grief is never recognized and never processed. Um So I think, um yeah, so step one is just kind of just creating that space, you know, wherever that is for you. Um Whether it's listening to podcasts, whether it's joining a group, whether it's finding a grief coach, um or a therapist or possibly even a trauma therapist. Um 00:17:37 Speaker 2: So it just is, is on that, on that scale and then 00:17:42 Speaker 2: for their support system, like if you're, if you're a person in their personal lives, you know, if you're a friend or family member or a loved one or coworker, possibly, 00:17:53 Speaker 2: um, you know, how do you show up for them? So, based on your relationship, um 00:18:00 Speaker 2: It depends, you know, how you show up. But, but my message is always the same for, for the support system is just be there, just show up. Um Just, yeah, because I hear a lot of the times where um people are like, oh, I don't know what to say and I didn't know what to do 00:18:20 Speaker 2: and I didn't want to bring it up. You know, we went out, we went out to dinner or I saw them here, I saw them there and I didn't want to ruin their day by 00:18:30 Speaker 1: asking about it. 00:18:32 Speaker 2: Right. I didn't want to bring it up. Yeah. And so there's just, um, which is understandable because you as a loved one or a friend, you don't want to make them feel bad, right? Like you, you don't want to be the one that brings on the tears and the, you know, 00:18:49 Speaker 2: um, but my advice is always, you know, again based on your relationship and, and where you are. But my advice is always like, always if, when the opportunity is presented, um, bring it up, ask how they're doing, um, check in on them, you know. Um, yeah, and like if you're a really close friend or family member, uh, you know, text them and say, hey, have you, 00:19:14 Speaker 2: have you eaten dinner yet? You know, I, I'll swing by and pick something up and stop by or, um, another thing I like is to give them options, you know, like, hey, tomorrow I'm free. Um, do you want to go out for lunch? Do you want to just watch a movie and eat popcorn? You know, or, uh, do you want me to come over and drop off food on your doorstep and leave, you know, kind of just give him like two or three options to choose from. And, um, 00:19:44 Speaker 2: they might say no and that's fine and that's ok. But chances are they're not going to say no, chances are they're going to take you up on one of those offers and um and it just, and it means so much for people to just show up and, and be there. So that's my main advice is, is, you know, you don't necessarily have to be a grief educator or grief coach to create that space if you're in that person's life, um 00:20:14 Speaker 2: uh just, you know, show up text um calling usually isn't preferred, but if you text and say, hey, you know what I'm thinking about you today? Um, I'm just wondering how you're doing. Um, and that just goes such a long way. So, um, and then also I just think on a grand scale to build a support system, we just need to let go of this idea of talking about 00:20:43 Speaker 2: death or loss or grief is icky or taboo. Like we really just need to as a culture, get rid of this idea of. It's something we shouldn't talk about. It's something that, you know, we should leave alone. And, 00:20:59 Speaker 2: um, so I just think on a, on a bigger scale, um, we all just kind of need to get back in touch with that and, you know, it's like, it's not, it's not icky, it's not taboo. It's something that everyone at some point in their lives will experience. And, um, yeah, and it's a shared experience. I mean, everyone's gonna, gonna have different ones or go through different things. But, um, 00:21:24 Speaker 2: yeah, at the end of the day, it's just don't shy away from it. Don't shy away from the topic. 00:21:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was also thinking about, you know, when you said, you know, the people, uh, you know, they hesitate to actually bring this topic because they think that if I bring this topic, they will, 00:21:43 Speaker 1: so you will remind them. 00:21:45 Speaker 1: But that is not true. There, there is no point that we have forgotten about it. Right. So, it, it is never going to be the case that because you talked about it, you know, that person got reminded about the grief. It is never like that because it is never off from their mind. It is just that it is not being shown or it is not visible on their face at that point of time, but in the back of the mind, it is always there, right? So there is an opportunity and if you can just 00:22:14 Speaker 1: speak and give some kind words, you know, and just to support few words are I think, take a long way, right? So, yeah, and I think also, uh in in this work, especially in the miscarriage and pregnancy loss, there is, you know, I've seen other coaches also and you know, there is a lot of scope in working in a community, right? Uh you know, bringing all those grievers into a community so that they can support each other. Well, 00:22:44 Speaker 1: uh how about, have you thought about that or are you working or yourself like on this kind of a model or something like that. 00:22:51 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so far I've, um, been one on one 00:22:55 Speaker 2: working with my clients. Um, and 00:22:59 Speaker 2: so I, yeah, that's something I definitely want to do. I am thinking about, I am talking to a couple of people about, uh doing a, you know, a group, uh grief circle, um, a group, group, group grief meeting. Um So, yeah, some of those things are in the works. And then, um 00:23:20 Speaker 2: you know, because I do, that's one of the one things that did help me is that when I did get to that point where I didn't know where else to turn, I didn't know, uh you know, who could help me. I did find a group um 00:23:34 Speaker 2: of, of women and then we kind of created uh our own Facebook group. So it was a small, it was probably like 4050 of us um 00:23:42 Speaker 2: who had just experienced a miscarriage and then we stayed together for a long time and we just, we were there for each other. If people posted, they were having a tough day, we were there, people posted questions, you know, we were there. So, yeah, that, that sense of community is, is, is huge. So yes, that's definitely something that's, that's that I would like to do and it's in the future plans for me. 00:24:07 Speaker 1: Yeah. Something like how David is doing as well, right? In a, in a community, you know, having some touch points in the week, uh, during a week or so. Uh So, yeah, I think you can impact and, uh more, you know, more people have a bigger impact with your work that you're doing with that model also. So wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, um, 00:24:29 Speaker 1: so one more question that I have for you is, you know, uh, 00:24:34 Speaker 1: there is often that is being, you know, talked about and we think about, you know, the what is the impact of this loss, the pregnancy loss or the miscarriage loss on the future pregnancies that happen? 00:24:46 Speaker 1: How, what do you see in your, when you work with clients and what impact what emotional impact is there? Uh a fear kind of a thing that you observe or something like that. 00:24:58 Speaker 2: Yeah. So um it happened with me and I do see it with my clients as well. It can alter um pregnancy after loss can alter so much about what you thought your pregnancy was going to look like. So, 00:25:11 Speaker 2: um for example, like, rather than being happy to see a pregnancy test, you're scared or indifferent about it. Um And rather than telling everyone about your pregnancy right away, you wait a little bit longer than you did before. Yeah, or you know, you're afraid if you don't feel any movement, you're just, your mind just goes to 00:25:33 Speaker 2: uh my baby died, you know. Um it, it's just, it kind of just jumps all of the other options. Straight to, yeah, and straight to the, the worst case and then, yeah, and stuff like, you know, you don't start decorating the nursery until you're 00:25:51 Speaker 2: almost, you know, giving birth. Um, just a lot of stuff like that. I think the biggest thing for me was 00:25:59 Speaker 2: feeling a little bit of guilt of, about not having the pregnancy. I thought I would have, um, and guilt for assuming the worst a lot of the times. Um So there's just so many emotions like you said, the fear and the anxiety and um you know, is something going to happen? Is there something that I'm going to do that is, is going to cause another miscarriage is that, you know, there's just 00:26:27 Speaker 2: pregnancy after a loss is there's, there's rarely any relaxing in any part of it because you constantly have to ask yourself in everything that you do in your daily life. Is this going to have a negative impact on my pregnancy? Is this gonna have a negative impact on my baby? And so you really can't. I mean, at least I know it was in my, in my situation and a lot of other women's situations, 00:26:51 Speaker 2: um it is really difficult to just sit back and enjoy and I did have to incorporate that. Um And I tried quite a bit to say, you know what, um I'm just going to enjoy this moment. You know, I'm going to um recognize like how wonderful this is. And so, you know, that just reminder of, of, um 00:27:18 Speaker 2: you know, instilling those moments of, of joy and gratefulness as you're going through it. Um While also recognizing that 00:27:27 Speaker 2: the fear and the anxiety is a normal feeling, you know, and you know. Yeah. And what I like to tell people is like, you're not going crazy, you're not, you know, because from the outside, um people will be like, really like, why did you, 00:27:46 Speaker 2: you know, you're not, you're not going to have any deli meat, like you're not going to eat any deli meat for, for your entire pregnancy and to them, it just doesn't make any sense to them. It seems like really extreme 00:27:58 Speaker 1: extreme. 00:28:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. Um where as, as, 00:28:04 Speaker 2: um, what I like to tell to tell people is, um, you're not crazy that and no matter if other people kind of, they don't understand and they have that perception. Um It's a totally normal thing to do. Like you have experienced something traumatic and, and you're afraid that it's going to happen again. You're going to be thinking um this type of a way and so it very much impacts, you know, following pregnancies. And 00:28:33 Speaker 2: um, and so yeah, I just like to put it out there of like I get it, I understand those thoughts. Um And, but um, what I do is I, I coach people into um 00:28:46 Speaker 2: how to process those, how to process them and then also how to work in 00:28:52 Speaker 2: the joy and work in the gratitude along the way. 00:28:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, so don't get basically flown into that, those kind of a fear instead of that, recognize that fear that, that it is there, but work it out in a positive direction. That's how probably so that's where maybe your help as a coach is needed also for not only just after the loss, but maybe also before and during the next pregnancy, right, as a coach, 00:29:21 Speaker 1: because some people might, you know, feel it bit more traumatic than others, right? So, so I think there is definitely uh a lot of help needed in that, that space as well, you know, when the following pregnancy happens. So, yeah, I think a lot of uh interesting things, you know, it's a different, uh it's a different kind of a loss than, you know, than any other loss that we have on our uh in a list of losses, 00:29:46 Speaker 1: personal losses, right? So it's a very different kind of a loss and a unique one as well. So wonderful. Uh uh So one final question, if, suppose our listeners would like to reach out to you, they would like to work with you, you know, so what is the best way to reach out to you if you can share that? And I will also put that in our channel episode description. So there's nothing that can be missed. 00:30:09 Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. So um on social media, you can find me. Um I'm Autumn Winds coaching and so if you can, I'm on Facebook, linkedin, um Instagram, uh Instagram, I'm on um probably the most. So if you wanted to message me there, I'm I'm happy to, to get your message there. Um Also my website Autumn Winds coaching.com and 00:30:34 Speaker 2: you can also email me at info at Autumn Winds coaching.com. So lots of ways you can reach me and you know, I'd be happy to, yeah, I'm happy to chat with anyone who feels they need support. 00:30:47 Speaker 1: Ok. Right. So the primary way is the Instagram, the email and the website, right, where you are most reachable, right? So I'll put that in the episode link. Uh That's not to worry about that. And our listeners can definitely look at that. 00:31:01 Speaker 1: All right. So that was it. Thank you so much Andrea for uh for, for coming on in our show. You know, this discussion was really valuable, put a lot of insight on a different loss. We hadn't had uh a discussion about this kind of a loss. It's a unique loss, right? 00:31:18 Speaker 1: So wonderful to have you and I hope to bring you on next time and that. So it was wonderful to have you. Thank you so much. 00:31:27 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It was great chatting with you as always. 00:31:31 Speaker 1: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.