100th Celebration with author Kate Zaliznock

[00:00:00] Welcome back to Crime Capsule. I'm your host, Benjamin Morris. We hope everybody

[00:00:11] enjoyed our conversation last week with Kristen Thompson, the wizard behind the

[00:00:16] Crime Capsule curtain and we are delighted to have you with us as we

[00:00:20] continue our 100th episode celebration. For the next few weeks we are going to

[00:00:25] bring back on some of our guests who have joined us in the past to catch up

[00:00:29] with them and see what's new in their world and with their cases since we first

[00:00:34] sat down. Now, lest you think this is merely a stroll down memory lane, our first

[00:00:42] alum will swiftly remind you that the past is not past, that her case is still

[00:00:47] wide open and that anything could happen at any time. Granted that may be

[00:00:52] true generally of certain parts of California but for Kate Zaliznak,

[00:00:57] author of the San Francisco Doodler murders, it is particularly true and we

[00:01:03] are thrilled to have her here again to tell us why. Kate welcome back. Thank you

[00:01:08] for having me back. It is a total joy you know as we were planning out our

[00:01:13] 100th episode anniversary celebration you were one of the very first folks

[00:01:19] that came to mind. We are so grateful to you for making time for us

[00:01:24] when your book came out and again today. Thank you so much. It was really wonderful

[00:01:29] to talk to you the first time and I'm really grateful that you have me back

[00:01:32] and we can touch base a little bit on this case again. Yeah, so when we first

[00:01:36] spoke we sat down in August of I believe it was 22 with our colleague

[00:01:43] Laurie Krill your editor at History Press. It was kind of cool. It was like

[00:01:47] a bonus episode. It was between our seasons and you guys had a really

[00:01:52] interesting and substantive dialogue about the making of a true crime book

[00:01:58] and I want to absolutely encourage our listeners to go and check that out in

[00:02:02] the back catalog but tell us in the last 18 months what is new in the world

[00:02:08] of Kate Zaliznak. Well, the latest with me is basically what I've always

[00:02:15] done since before writing the book and now is I've always written about art,

[00:02:23] music, culture. I've written about all different types of topics for different

[00:02:28] outlets but for me that has been the bulk of my writing this was definitely

[00:02:34] a project that was something I always wanted to do and something that I

[00:02:38] thought I could take a really good swing at so since the book has come

[00:02:43] out I have still kept some things in mind that I've been looking into with the

[00:02:48] case trying to follow up on some things with the case but the majority of my

[00:02:54] creative writing right now is going to my magazine which is called Open

[00:02:58] Color Magazine and we talk about all different types of the creative news

[00:03:05] basically and interviews and yeah, it's great. For example this month I

[00:03:11] have an interview with Daniel Ma who directed a really great new film called

[00:03:15] Mabel. He is also one of the producers of Won't You Be My Neighbor which was

[00:03:21] a really amazing documentary on Fred Rogers that came out in 2018 and also

[00:03:25] I- Absolutely, that one was huge. Remember when that came out that was great.

[00:03:29] Well he was on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood as a kid with his father Yo-Yo Ma so

[00:03:36] that was sort of his first introduction right and I just had a wonderful

[00:03:41] conversation with him that I've just written about and actually today I'm

[00:03:46] working on a piece. I'll be interviewing the new one of the new

[00:03:52] principal soloists at the San Francisco Ballet just saw Swan Lake the final

[00:03:57] encore present performance. It was amazing. So I have not been as in the true

[00:04:05] crime world in the sense that I'm still having interviews and all that and

[00:04:08] that's great but in terms of I've needed to focus a little more on writing

[00:04:16] about the about the arts community which is what got me interested in this case

[00:04:21] being so ingrained in the arts community and hearing about a serial killer

[00:04:26] who was supposedly an artist. I mean this was a very unique

[00:04:30] case that sparked my interest because it does combine two of my passions and

[00:04:37] professionally I've written mostly about the arts but I've also just always

[00:04:43] wanted to write a true crime book. I've done you know short pieces but

[00:04:51] so that's basically what's going on with me right now. Everyone can more than welcome

[00:04:55] to check it out. We have a monthly newsletter where we send out all sorts of

[00:04:59] really interesting interviews, reviews, all types of stuff but it's just open

[00:05:04] color is what it's called. Sounds great well we'll definitely have to go and

[00:05:08] take a look. You know the Bay Area that part of Central California, Northern

[00:05:12] California is so rich and fertile for the arts it's just there's more than

[00:05:16] you could ever hope to cover in in a lifetime. I mean it's just so much

[00:05:21] going on there and you know when you first started writing about this really

[00:05:25] unique and mysterious connection to this particular serial killer you know you

[00:05:30] think could he possibly have come out of one of these academies or you know like

[00:05:36] what's the draw there right? Trying to get student rosters trust me that is a

[00:05:43] rabbit hole that I am still in. Trying to really figure out you know what are

[00:05:50] some of the places that I could get a hold of some records. There are also at risk youth programs for

[00:05:58] artists at the time there were all kinds of things that would be a potential resource when

[00:06:07] trying to try to invest in this case. It's so much it's so much but we love it we love it we

[00:06:12] would much rather you know feast or famine right give us give us the feast any day of

[00:06:17] the week so for those listeners who may not be familiar with the do-leur murder can you just

[00:06:24] give us like a quick overview slash recap of what you found when you started looking into this because

[00:06:31] you were really one of the first to write about it in a long form systematic way weren't you?

[00:06:36] Yeah and it was it's it was so um I had heard about this case just very briefly from someone

[00:06:44] that I knew and I thought to myself how have I never heard about that and it came back up a few

[00:06:53] years later when I was thinking about you know options to to cases to write a book on

[00:07:00] and I thought I have to look more into that so basically what this is is between 1974 1975

[00:07:07] what we now to believe to be six gay men were murdered by what we assumed to be the same man

[00:07:17] and we'd now come to call him the do-leur because throughout the investigation for several different

[00:07:25] reasons there was some information that led police to believe that he was an artist because

[00:07:34] he had approached certain men again this isn't necessarily the victims I want to be careful about

[00:07:42] we don't have any evidence that the people who were actually murdered were approached by a man

[00:07:48] an artist however we'll get into the fact that there were some survivors of of an attack those

[00:07:55] survivors were approached by a man who claimed to be an artist and drew some sketches for them

[00:08:03] of animals and different uh yeah so was it as it was an artist with sketching them it was

[00:08:11] apparently very impressive I just have to say if anyone out there in podcast land is wondering

[00:08:16] whether you know this guy has the moniker of like a bad b-rated Batman villain who's like final cut

[00:08:26] did not actually make it into the episode the answer is yes you know like it really is like that bad

[00:08:34] it's the worst name and it just yeah it detracts from the whole situation and it was such a

[00:08:40] as a writer you're struggling like okay I can't uh do I do I want to rename him now it's one thing

[00:08:48] if you're piecing together a series of crimes and saying okay I need to come up with a name for

[00:08:53] the these are all related I have to come up with a name it's another thing to have all the you

[00:08:57] know documented press and all of the you know that's all that's who they're referring to so

[00:09:03] I can't really refer to them as any lean in baby lean into it you know just run with it

[00:09:12] joy about the name is I would be so annoyed if I took myself as a serious artist and I was using

[00:09:19] this as a lure and I thought to myself oh my god I am brilliant and then they named me the doodler

[00:09:26] I mean that's I know right the San Francisco Chronicle comes along and gives you that tag

[00:09:31] line and you're just like I mean it would make you mad enough to murder somebody else I would think

[00:09:35] frankly I would be so disrespectful I don't know right but I get it yeah there was there was this

[00:09:46] interesting sort of dimension though because first of all he's never caught it's still a live case

[00:09:50] second of all there was a gap between some of the murders you write about the fact that

[00:09:54] this sort of there's an initial period of activity and then the the latter incidents were even kind of

[00:10:01] like more provocative and then you said there were some survivors of an attack so I mean really dramatic

[00:10:08] storyline here actually for listeners who aren't up to speed on this the murders murder victims

[00:10:14] were found outside out outdoor locations for any listeners who aren't completely caught up to

[00:10:22] speed on the case all of the murder victims were found outdoors in common rendezvous hookup

[00:10:29] locations for the gay community so ocean beach golden gate park however the three survivors were

[00:10:36] found inside of either their own apartments or or were attacked I should say inside of their

[00:10:43] own apartments or at a hotel that is a huge shift away from the remote more or less remote kind of

[00:10:54] shielded areas where the murder the murders took place because especially for talking about ocean

[00:10:59] beach I mean you have the roar of the ocean which covers up pretty much a lot and there weren't

[00:11:07] that many people around there at night and if there were everyone was keeping to themselves

[00:11:15] basically so to go from that to attacking people inside of especially you know apartment or hotel

[00:11:23] buildings you have people on the other side of the wall and the most bizarre to me is that two

[00:11:29] of the three victims were both attacked in the same apartment complex like a floor I think

[00:11:34] there was a floor between them and that is such a big swing from you know like I said where the

[00:11:44] murder victims were found and a big part of what I've continued to look into I've mentioned this

[00:11:49] in the book is is there a possibility that these two groupings of crimes one in which six men

[00:11:58] were murdered and one in which three men were attacked and survived an attack are we positive

[00:12:04] that these are the same person and that's something that I've pressed with SFPD several times

[00:12:12] and they have always maintained that these all these incidents are connected through

[00:12:20] MO and opportunity how the victims were found but no one is has testified to seeing any of

[00:12:30] the murder victims with a man who matches the description of the attacker no one has

[00:12:36] there hasn't been any DNA evidence it's linking them that that they have been able to concisely prove

[00:12:43] so that's there's always that possibility I talk in the book about other cases where

[00:12:48] police really thought this is one person and it really took them a long time to sort of

[00:12:53] figure out that it wasn't so that's you know in terms of what I'm looking at now with the

[00:12:59] case that's always been sort of just a continuation of that not that I don't not that I'm dead set

[00:13:06] against them being the same person to be clear I just it's it's not enough to sell me completely

[00:13:12] on it is what I would say you mentioned one of my most intriguing experiences reading your book

[00:13:19] Kate was when near the end you mentioned that in your review of the evidence you had

[00:13:25] identified a potential suspect and had in fact suggested this potential suspect to the SFPD and

[00:13:33] this was somebody that they themselves had not either been aware of or had really taken

[00:13:38] seriously as a person of interest in the case did anything ever come of that particular suggestion

[00:13:46] really no honestly no am I and I might have talked about this in our initial conversation

[00:13:52] but my hope for this right now is to actually try to are you familiar with the VDoc society at all

[00:14:02] it is a group of about 80 professionals retired professionals between FBI profilers law enforcement

[00:14:11] genealogists all these people and they also have about 100 volunteers and the best in their field

[00:14:19] supposedly and but they can only review cases that are presented to them by law enforcement

[00:14:27] I think at this stage in the game that is what they should be doing is going to an entity like

[00:14:34] the VDoc society because I'm not you know individual researchers I'm sure I'm not the only one

[00:14:43] whether it be this case or another case it's one thing if we're looking at a murder that

[00:14:48] happened two years ago but we're looking at a very long decades and decades since these murders

[00:14:54] have occurred and unfortunately when that happens you're also up against the clock of if the perpetrator

[00:15:00] is still alive what justice can you still can you receive so at this point my efforts are really

[00:15:08] trying to connect different resources to SFPD now they it's their credit you know since the

[00:15:19] book has been published the reward has gone all the way up to 250,000 dollars now I think when

[00:15:24] the book was published I believe it was 100,000 now it's up to 250,000 they have released that

[00:15:30] updated sketch of a suspect and so I do think that there are things that are happening

[00:15:40] but in order for this case to really reach a conclusion I think it either needs to be some

[00:15:45] sort of DNA coming back from the lab from what I've been told there's still DNA that is being

[00:15:50] someone analyzed you know law enforcement crime labs are notoriously let's just say not as good

[00:15:59] analyzing DNA as private entities are now so that's another thing like something with

[00:16:06] exactly and at this technology is eons behind what is actually now available so

[00:16:13] then there are companies genealogy companies that do the sort of work

[00:16:17] voluntarily but these are all things that they must be approached by law enforcement they cannot

[00:16:23] consider any outside you know we should really look at this case because to be fair there are

[00:16:29] so many court cases and they really needed to come from law enforcement so that's something

[00:16:36] that I'm working on is really trying to you know if we're if we're stalling out a little bit

[00:16:45] who can't who what other eyes can we get on it who who's smarter than we are right who's

[00:16:51] we want we want the the most experienced people in the room looking at something like this

[00:16:56] because time is so of the essence there's you know and there were two actually there's

[00:17:03] there's one serial killer in in a little little south of the city and the other one

[00:17:12] is someone who looked exactly like the doodler sketch who had similar means and opportunity

[00:17:20] um now the person in the city that I suggested you know SFPD said well that name sounds familiar

[00:17:28] um I sound I feel like we cleared him but I don't remember what the circumstance was so

[00:17:33] that was the response that I got doesn't necessarily mean that it's not true or that

[00:17:37] they didn't clear him or whatever but it's again it goes back to is it enough for me to go okay

[00:17:42] box checked moving on no um so that's you know just especially if we're talking about a cold

[00:17:48] case where everything is on paper that has been sitting in a basement yellowing for years you know

[00:17:54] it's it's it's worth it's worth taking the time yeah absolutely well I mean that's the thing about

[00:18:00] these cold cases is that you never know when you know a little a little piece a little scrap of

[00:18:06] evidence might trigger somebody's association you never know when an investigator themselves

[00:18:10] might not have a brainwave like like Rita Shuler did with her case um you know in South Carolina

[00:18:16] and just suddenly everything begins to click into focus or you just get a fresh set of eyes

[00:18:21] you never know that's so important fresh set of eyes I mean no matter how hard you try to say okay

[00:18:26] I'm gonna you know be objective I'm not gonna it's impossible to fully we're not machines

[00:18:33] we're not computers right we have biases we have all kinds of things that we um don't

[00:18:41] don't realize so getting different opinions getting especially experienced eyes on something like this

[00:18:48] is vital vital and because if you don't honestly that's how a lot of times you come up with

[00:18:55] the wrong person arrested the wrong person in jail sometimes for 15 20 years because if you if you

[00:19:01] get so tunnel vision you start bending the pieces to fit the puzzle and that's where you really

[00:19:09] get into trouble absolutely you know our guest clay Bryant who came and spoke to us

[00:19:14] a couple months ago had quite a lot to say about bending the evidence to fit the theory as opposed to

[00:19:19] you know um the other way other way around and you have to be very comfortable with the possibility

[00:19:26] of being wrong I think you and I might have talked about this before but don't get into

[00:19:30] this line of work if you are nervous about looking silly or scared that you're gonna

[00:19:36] miss something obvious because that's gonna happen at some point or another it might not be public

[00:19:42] but it's gonna happen um and you have to be really comfortable with that well the hunt for the doodler

[00:19:49] continues and you know if somebody has to go and rewatch some old Adam west Batman cartoons to get

[00:19:55] you know a sense of the uh you know the true villain's path right then we'll let them do that

[00:20:03] but in the meantime in the meantime we have your book which is um out and it's just a fantastic

[00:20:09] and fascinating story um let me ask you one or two just quick questions uh before we before we close

[00:20:16] out here uh number one where can folks find your book right now so you can find my book pretty

[00:20:24] much anywhere where books are sold if you have a particular book shop that you like to um buy

[00:20:30] from you just have to call them they might not have a copy in stock but they can always order it for

[00:20:35] for you um Barnes and Noble, Amazon all of those good places it's also available in

[00:20:43] digital format and my website katesalisdoc.com I'm sure that my name will be spelled somewhere

[00:20:52] let's hope yeah you'll have to you'll have to verify the spelling of that but katesalisdoc.com

[00:20:58] I have a link to it as well as I have a big email me um button in there any readers anyone who's

[00:21:05] interested in this case anyone who wants to talk about writing please feel free to reach out to me

[00:21:11] I'd love to hear from you great and your magazine how can folks find your magazine open color

[00:21:16] same thing you can go to katesalisdoc.com and it'll lead you there or you can just go

[00:21:21] straight to weareopencolor.com fantastic well I'm so grateful for the chance just to get to catch up

[00:21:29] and hang out for a little bit and um sounds like this even though the case does not have a period

[00:21:35] or an exclamation mark at the end of it it still has a question mark at the end of it we always

[00:21:41] maintain hope eternal absolutely and I really appreciate your interest in this case and

[00:21:46] following up and checking in and it's always a pleasure to be on this podcast

[00:21:51] the joy is ours kate we will talk to you soon thanks so much thanks for listening our guest has been

[00:21:56] katesalisdoc author of the san francisco doodler murders published by the history press

[00:22:03] to order a copy of the book visit your local independent bookstore or visit

[00:22:06] arcadeapublishing.com and join us next week as we continue our 100th episode anniversary

[00:22:13] celebration see you then thanks as always to our producer bill huffman our production director

[00:22:21] rigid coin audio engineer ian douglas and our executive producers michael deloia and gerardo

[00:22:28] orlando I'm your host benjamin marris crime capsule is a production of evergreen podcasts

[00:22:35] and a signature title of the killer podcasts network you can find crime capsule wherever

[00:22:42] you listen to podcasts discover more great true crime and paranormal programming at killer podcasts

[00:22:50] dot com coming up on five minute news i'm anthony davis you might think it's partisan because maybe

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