Guest Episode: The Rise of Llywelyn the Great (Welsh History Podcast)

[00:00:00] Hey guys, I'm still away at the moment so no new episode today unfortunately. But instead

[00:00:04] I thought I'd share an episode from another show that I really enjoy. Jonathan Williams

[00:00:09] is a charismatic host of the Welch History Podcast. If you've been listening to this show for a while

[00:00:14] you've probably heard our episode on Oang Lendor way back in season 2. Glendor is one of many

[00:00:20] fascinating figures from the history of Wales, a region that I think is very underrated. The Welch

[00:00:26] History Podcast traces the history of the Welch people from ancient times to modern day. But

[00:00:32] the episode I plucked out is Episode 85, The Rise Of Hulu Ellen the Great. Hulu Ellen is a titanic

[00:00:39] figure in Welch history who was equally responsible both for the Kingdom's high watermark and its

[00:00:45] later subjugation to the English. This guy was a big deal. I mean he was one of the barons who forced

[00:00:51] Wiley English King John to sign the Magna Carta, an event that's often seen as the first stepping

[00:00:56] stone to our modern democracy. So have a listen and if you enjoy the episode check out the Welch

[00:01:02] History Podcast on wherever you're listening right now. Great to speak with you again we'll be back

[00:01:07] soon with new episodes. Take it away Jonathan.

[00:01:22] Welcome back to the Welch History Podcast Episode 85, The Rise Of Hulu Ellen the Great.

[00:01:33] As we've covered this podcast I think one of the things that I've heard mentioned to me quite a

[00:01:38] bit is the idea of talking about an era in Welch history which I think a lot of people have a

[00:01:43] lot of ideas about and a lot of knowledge of. Certainly if you have studied any sort of

[00:01:49] Welch history at all you know about the two characters we're going to get to over the next few

[00:01:54] episodes. One of which of course is Thu Ellen the Great, Prince of Wales and his grandson Thu Ellen

[00:02:01] the Last. These two gentlemen kind of make that connection that we will certainly be covering in depth

[00:02:11] quite a bit they are important figures in both the rise of Gwyneth as the Supreme Power in Wales

[00:02:19] and also the reason why they collapse and Wales is officially conquered. You can't even if you

[00:02:27] look at it from a standpoint of a positive Welch source you can't do anything but recognize that

[00:02:32] that is the case that both of these gentlemen are the reason why it rose and the reason why it fell

[00:02:38] and because of that they're fascinating people look into they have fascinating lives that go along

[00:02:44] with it we have a lot of writings about them simply because they were in an era where England was

[00:02:50] suddenly receiving a lot more documentation because of Edward I and his you know progenitors and

[00:02:59] his ancestors as the Plantagenets kind of took over ruling England. They obviously started

[00:03:08] conflict with their Western neighbors and Northern neighbors let's be honest and neighbors in general

[00:03:14] and so this is as I say a very interesting and fascinating year it'll look at so how about we get to it

[00:03:21] shall we? In 1160 Medaud Aput Marduth died and Powis split into a north and south version

[00:03:31] to the various heirs in northern Powis the heirs were able to control things for a while

[00:03:37] until 1236 it remained a kingdom with some remaining influence however in south Powis things were

[00:03:45] stable but with the death of Oane Kainfulug after 1197 the kingdom became more of a bit player

[00:03:54] in Welch and English politics it would remain an existing kingdom for most of the 13th century at least

[00:04:01] a name on the map rather than that fundamental player it had played for the previous hundred years

[00:04:08] and because of that it still maintained some relevancy nonetheless but we have to keep in mind

[00:04:15] that it stopped being a significant power in the power playing of kings and princes across both

[00:04:23] England and Wales and of course came to an end at the same time that independence did. In the same year

[00:04:31] that Oane died Lord Reese the prince of south Wales passed away his death sent his dynasty into chaos

[00:04:40] he'd had 15 sons seven of which were bastards eight of which were legitimate according to the Welch

[00:04:46] in this prestigious family that meant that there were a lot of people to argue about who owns and

[00:04:52] should have what while the oldest son Griffith at Reese kept things relatively together

[00:04:59] but only for four years as he passed away in 1201 which meant his influence on Welch history was

[00:05:06] mild to say the least and because of this his kingdom would fall into chaos and ruin and realistically

[00:05:16] would again be another major dynasty that would come to an abrupt end very shortly. As these

[00:05:23] centers of former Welch dominance dissipated in their place of course Gwyneth started to rise again

[00:05:29] we talked a little bit about this in the past. The largest benefactor of Pauis was Oane Gwyneth

[00:05:36] who lived nine years past his brother-in-law. Oane died in December 1169 to the everlasting

[00:05:43] parades of his chroniclers who described him as a man of great goodness with very great

[00:05:48] nobility wisdom and the bullwork of Wales. His progeny did not fare as well at least for the next 40-30

[00:05:56] years. Unfortunately for them Gwyneth in this period had a lot of instability. Heul who was the air

[00:06:08] to the throne wasn't able to outlast his brothers and was eventually ousted by Davith his brother

[00:06:18] who sent all of his brothers and nephews packing and a lot of whom ended up in Ireland.

[00:06:25] One of them did not we'll talk a little bit about him in a few minutes however during all of this

[00:06:33] there was one brother who ceased or at least was not really ever mentioned and that's

[00:06:39] Yeiworth up Owen. Now apologies if my pronunciation is not great but here we go.

[00:06:47] Now he was someone who was claimed to be a son of Owen, someone who had been considered

[00:06:55] lesser important, lesser in his abilities. In fact he was nicknamed the flat nose

[00:07:02] at least this was mentioned by Gerald who was close enough to being a peer of him

[00:07:09] and this may be due to a couple of different things. According to later tradition he may have been

[00:07:16] disfigured thus the name flat nose which would explain that or possibly also disabled.

[00:07:23] This may explain why he plays no part in the conflicts of his brothers. If he had a mental instability

[00:07:29] or a mental disability he may not have been able to take part in it. He may not have understood

[00:07:34] fully what was going on. If it was just a disfigurement then that doesn't explain that but it could

[00:07:40] be that he didn't have the followers surrounding him that say someone who was considered to be more

[00:07:47] noble or more delicate in appearance let's say would have so he may have struggled to get a

[00:07:54] following behind him. Also there is just not a whole lot about him that gets mentioned so you

[00:08:01] also wonder how significant he is in this conflict with his brothers. Now Gerald of Wales was not very

[00:08:09] impressed with what happened in this period he says I shall pass over with silence what was done

[00:08:14] by Owen's son in our day when he himself was dying in their desperate attempts to gain the

[00:08:21] inheritance they showed complete disregard for brotherly ties. Gerald goes so far as to claim that

[00:08:27] only one of the sons was even legitimate but this may be due to Owen's excommunication over

[00:08:32] marrying his first cousin Kristen. However the sons that he called legitimate was Yoiworth.

[00:08:41] Yoiworth was married to Merad or also known in some sources as Margaret, the daughter of Medog

[00:08:48] and seemingly ruled a small portion of South Winath while his brothers fought over the main crown.

[00:08:54] In 1173 in a year that the brute describes as the best in the spring and a misery the rest of the

[00:09:01] year Merad bore a son to Yoiworth and they named him Fuellen. A year later the baby and mother were

[00:09:10] widowed and fatherless as Yoiworth died in 1174. Of course other than these bits and pieces which we

[00:09:18] have that's it. That's all we really know about one of the fathers of the greatest princes in whales

[00:09:26] someone who had such a historical influence on the rest of Welsh history and his parental figure is

[00:09:34] just not really important enough to be named beyond that which if he was disabled in some way may

[00:09:41] explain a lot he would possibly be considered an embarrassment compared to the backdrop of his father

[00:09:47] and his son and with that in mind the chroniclers may have wanted to avoid talking about him other than

[00:09:52] just in the aspect of him being apparent. His son on the other hand appears to have grown up with

[00:09:57] chip on his shoulder according to Gerald when he went north to visit Gwyneth he found Fuellen

[00:10:04] at 12 years old already looking to bring down his uncles David and Rodry as Gerald put it

[00:10:12] the uncles had lands and connections and Llewellyn was completely destitute of lands or money but he

[00:10:21] was legitimate and could therefore trust in vengeance of God. So why was Llewellyn so driven?

[00:10:29] likely his father lost his possessions either at his death or shortly before when the overthrow

[00:10:34] happened of all of the brothers and nephews he was most likely kept out of Gwyneth for a while

[00:10:42] much like his great grandfather he was left wanting more than what life had a lot of him at that

[00:10:47] point. His mother it was suggested may have remarried to a Corbett who was a marcher from the

[00:10:53] Shropture area which as a princess to a Powis monarch might make some sense as obviously Shropture and

[00:11:02] Powis are side by side and it would mean that Truellen was brought up outside of Wales or at the very

[00:11:10] least outside of Gwyneth and this in itself may have stroked the fire of his desire for vengeance.

[00:11:16] Looking at the math though I think Gerald may have had his timing off most likely if this was during

[00:11:22] the Baldwin mission of 1188 and he met Truellen then. He was likely closer to 15 than 12 which would

[00:11:29] make a lot of sense as he would have been seen of age which at least now would be a threat to his

[00:11:35] uncles at 12 years old they may have considered that an adult but the reality of it is is I mean

[00:11:41] a preteen leading an army successfully I'm not sure that would have worked as well however

[00:11:47] going back to his upbringing Truellen was well versed in French and the courtly language of England

[00:11:52] at the time he worked well with the marcher lords as well which makes you wonder if his connections

[00:11:58] in early life served him in later life as he had to deal with all these English lords who would

[00:12:03] be clamoring to take him down a peg under normal circumstances whether he was 12 or 15 Truellen

[00:12:09] did make his way to Wales if we were to go by the timeline that puts him in the area during about

[00:12:14] 1189 the brute or the chronicle the princes tells us that he was working with his uncle to take

[00:12:21] down Daphid and certainly worked with his cousins of nothing else the three brothers or at least

[00:12:27] their sons had ruled Gwyneth together for some time so what had set them at each other at this

[00:12:33] point this is of course being the questions why were the uncles fighting amongst themselves

[00:12:38] and why did they see a need to take down Daphid Daphid had ruled Gwyneth for 20 years by this time

[00:12:44] his brothers and nephews finally had carried out their attack against him

[00:12:48] Kainin and Rudry were a party to the defeat of their brother which is an interesting

[00:12:54] in light of the comments by Gerald about the brothers and specifically about this idea that

[00:12:58] Truellen somehow didn't need them apparently he kind of did and Truellen and his cousins Mardouth

[00:13:07] and Gryffith sons of Kainin and they were effectively the three leaders in charge of

[00:13:16] overcoming Daphid now the one question you have is is this because the younger generation was sick

[00:13:23] of the older generation was Truellen kind of the ring leader who got these two involved or was

[00:13:28] it the other way around where they already trying to revolt and went to Truellen seeking his help

[00:13:34] because of his connections to the east both with the English court and with the palace court

[00:13:40] could there be you know multiple reasons why he's brought on board and did he just basically assume

[00:13:45] charge once he got there or like I said was he always the one who was in charge and these guys

[00:13:51] just came to him needing his help or did he come to them needing their help we don't fully know

[00:13:58] unfortunately stories and the explanations we have don't go into it but certainly it does make

[00:14:03] one wonder if that is exactly what happened and as it turns out at a battle at Abercunway in 1194

[00:14:14] they defeated Daphid and captured him and he was then sent away from Gwyneth eventually to live

[00:14:21] out the rest of his days in England while Truellen traded places with his uncle as the ruler of the

[00:14:26] southern part of Gwyneth and the most powerful ruler in the triumvirate if you want to call it that

[00:14:30] between the uncles and their nephew in 1195 Roderie passed away leaving his lands into the hands of his

[00:14:37] sons but they would not last in their hands that long in 1197 as mentioned earlier Powis and

[00:14:45] Doitbarth suffered losses that left them unable to stop Truellen who had conquered much of

[00:14:50] Eastern Gwyneth at the time he jointly ruled with his cousins those two that had worked with him

[00:14:55] earlier through the revolt and were very much a part and a party to this but by 1201 Griffith had

[00:15:04] also died and thus slowly but surely Truellen was taking control and it seemed this marked an

[00:15:10] important point for Truellen because at this point with Griffith dead and one of the two brothers

[00:15:16] and sons of kin and dad it made it easier for Truellen to start to move in and take territory

[00:15:22] started to I mean for lack of a better word steel territory from his cousins and

[00:15:28] started to move towards taking all of Gwyneth back for his control and at the same time he was making

[00:15:35] maneuvers by making alliances with kings and Powis and trying to build connections within the

[00:15:41] kinship because of course there is some speculation that Truellen may not even know a lot of Welsh before

[00:15:48] he got back to Wales that because he'd been speaking in courts in England and he had learned

[00:15:55] Latin and French which were major languages obviously in England at this time he may not have

[00:16:02] been as well versed at it that's purely academic speculation without a lot of backing at this point

[00:16:07] but certainly it is one that you have to question with the way his life went is if he had a lot of

[00:16:13] to continue to learn and develop his links to his cousins and ancestors and all of these people

[00:16:21] that were spread across Wales that he had some sort of relationship with keep in mind that

[00:16:26] these people are still descendants of Mervyn and of Roderie the Great so there's still all of those

[00:16:34] ancestral links in with each other this is a time when everybody was known by a patronymix and so

[00:16:40] you know the farther back you could go the better your linkages with the past the better it would be

[00:16:45] for you so if you can say you know I'm a descendant of Roderie the Great that certainly helps and

[00:16:50] of course that family linkage whether it's real or imagined does the case maybe it sometimes

[00:16:56] certainly helps when you're dealing with relatives and quotes of course the one person I

[00:17:03] haven't really mentioned a lot of in this is the King of England at this point in 1201 the King

[00:17:08] is John of course of Robin Hood fame for those of you that know the stories and of course more

[00:17:15] importantly in history he's also known for the Magna Carta because of his mismanagement of his lords

[00:17:22] and Thwellen has a lot to relate to John because of course there's a lot of things that come about

[00:17:32] that he asked a deal with the person who would eventually become his father-in-law and luckily we

[00:17:39] have a copy of some of the documents that they drew up together in 1201 of course they entered into

[00:17:45] a treaty and this treaty which the text of which still survives says that Thwellen and his leading

[00:17:54] men or his nobles swore loyalty, fealty and promised homage to the king while John then

[00:18:01] conceded that either Welsh or English law might be employed in the land subject to Thwellen thus

[00:18:07] giving him royal recognition and of course surviving practices of Welsh legal framework being

[00:18:17] recognized by the English king would obviously be important I mean that's it does make sense although

[00:18:24] in all fairness there isn't much English could have done if he legitimately practiced English or

[00:18:29] Welsh law I don't think they could have enforced a whole lot but the fact that this is put down in

[00:18:35] some sort of law or some sort of code or treaty shows that it was important to both sides and did

[00:18:41] mean something and in fact historian our our Davies argues that this link between the laws of

[00:18:49] Wales and the laws of England or one of the conflicts and one of the key marker points

[00:18:54] of the 13th century it was one of the big debates between the two sides as to what everybody had

[00:19:00] to be respected towards and respectful for and I think that's important to keep in mind

[00:19:08] not dissimilarly important was four years later a relationship between Thwellen and John had

[00:19:15] grown so much that they actually formed a familial relationship because John's illegitimate

[00:19:22] daughter Joanna married Thwellen and this of course is a major significance because this would be

[00:19:29] one of the first times that the Anglo-Nobility married into a Welsh nobility as opposed to the

[00:19:35] other way around of course we have the example of Ness who was the the lover of the king of

[00:19:43] England Henry the first and then eventually became a part of the marcher lords as she married one

[00:19:51] of them but the reality of it is we didn't have a lot of instances where that was the other way

[00:19:56] around not since the Normans had come anyway and this is kind of one of those first things which

[00:20:00] creates yet another link between the two sides of course this doesn't stop either side from

[00:20:05] fighting it never did with the Welsh why would it now so certainly that's something to keep in mind

[00:20:12] but nonetheless it's an important point in the history of the Welsh English relationship

[00:20:18] and most importantly it also acknowledges the fact that Thwellen even at this stage and we're talking

[00:20:24] about someone who's in his 20s at this point had a dominant over his kingdom but also had dominance

[00:20:35] enough to be recognized as important enough that the king of England would marry his daughter to him

[00:20:42] and so he had to be somebody he had to worry about he had to have treaties with he had to be

[00:20:47] someone of significance enough that you had to work with and marry into to keep him on your side

[00:20:53] because if you didn't who knows what would happen now we know at this point shortly thereafter

[00:20:58] John will get into all sorts of trouble with his own nobles and within a decade will assign the

[00:21:04] Magna Carta and of course Llewellen and his ears will have something to do with that as well

[00:21:11] but nonetheless this is an important point for the king of England it's an important point

[00:21:16] for the Prince of Wales and it will again show the significance of the role that Llewellen was

[00:21:23] playing in the Welsh politics and really in the English politics so it's something to keep in mind

[00:21:30] it's a significant moment and because of that it's the moment that we're going to close out our

[00:21:35] discussion of this point in his life as we progress along we'll talk about a lot of other things

[00:21:41] in relationship to that to Llewellen and his life and we'll get in more details of his growing kingdom

[00:21:48] and how he ruled it but until next time we'll talk to you all later thank you so much for listening

[00:21:56] for those of you who are patron supporters please check out the patreon page or just put up a new video

[00:22:01] today yesterday and of course there is more to come on this front and if you want to become a

[00:22:08] supporter certainly you can do that at patreon.com for such Welsh history and we do put up I put up

[00:22:16] some commentary videos periodically and I'm trying to do those on a monthly basis going forward

[00:22:20] and talk about kind of what you want to see coming forward out of this podcast so please

[00:22:27] consider checking it out and I appreciate all those who have and I appreciate your listening

[00:22:33] and thank you everyone if you have any comments questions or concerns you can always reach me at

[00:22:38] WelshHistoryPodcast.gmail.com on twitter at WelshHistoryPod or on Facebook at WelshHistoryPodcast

[00:22:47] at Facebook.com for such Welsh history podcast until next time everyone take care have a great day

[00:22:53] enjoy your weeks and we'll see you later bye

[00:23:16] that's a great tartis sauce that melty cheese that pillowy bun yeah you get it every time

[00:23:23] and if you love the full ayo fish right now you can catch two of the classics you love for just

[00:23:28] six dollars limited time only price and participation may vary cannot be combined with any other

[00:23:32] offer single item a regular price