‘Sustainable farming in India is still in the proof of concept stage’

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter, I'm Ashraf Engineer. Indian agriculture finds itself at the intersection of three major challenges, ensuring food security, climate change and sustainable use of resources like water. Further, agriculture in India faces a sustainability challenge largely due to over-reliance on chemical inputs. It is estimated that for every $1,000 of investment in sustainable farming, there is a $100,000 subsidy allocated for chemical fertilizers. Given the environmental crisis, there is a crying need for a pivot towards sustainable farming.

[00:00:30] This pivot spans policy reforms to awareness and everything in between. As things stand, India's progress towards food security through sustainable farming is slow. How can India switch to sustainable agriculture while achieving its food requirements?

[00:00:46] All Indians Matter

[00:00:50] We have on the show Maninder Singh Nayar, founder and CEO of the CEF Group which deals in waste management, renewable energy, biofuels, agriculture, Ayurveda, hospitality, retail and skill development.

[00:01:02] It is Maninder's pursuit of environmental protection that has driven him to take up roles like entrepreneur, philanthropist, educational reformer and motivational speaker.

[00:01:11] Maninder hopes to eradicate chemical-based farming which has led him to conduct various initiatives on organic agri inputs and the need for natural farming.

[00:01:18] For this, he engages directly with farmers to provide the solutions they need. Welcome Maninder.

[00:01:23] Thank you so much Ashraf.

[00:01:25] Maninder, while there has been a lot of talk about sustainable agri inputs like biofertilizers, farmers are inclined towards chemical inputs because of cost efficiencies and the fact that they are tried and tested.

[00:01:35] At least one study shows that less than 5% of farmers account for 95% of biofertilizer used in India.

[00:01:42] What's the challenge in making this shift and how do we ensure it happens?

[00:01:45] See, if we talk about current scenario, it's almost 65 million tons of chemical fertilizers that is particularly being used in India for commercial farming practices.

[00:01:58] And if you talk about the bio or so-called organic content out of that, it is less than 4%.

[00:02:05] Now, the farmers, if you talk about a country like India, I would say that it's not being used right now.

[00:02:12] It is still in the proof of concept stage.

[00:02:16] But yes, it is being talked about a lot these days because of sustainability factors and few other factors.

[00:02:23] But farmers are still not on board with this because of various factors.

[00:02:28] One of them is education.

[00:02:31] One of them is the skill development that farmers should get, but they are unfortunately not able to get.

[00:02:38] And then various other factors as we go ahead in the conversation, we would like to, you know, I would like to discuss on various aspects a little bit in depth individually.

[00:02:49] Absolutely, Manitra.

[00:02:50] You know, most farmers have very small land holdings, which means they are vulnerable to even small problems.

[00:02:56] And large ones like a deficient monsoon or crop disease can be insurmountable.

[00:03:00] Therefore, you can't blame them for choosing the cheaper and non-sustainable alternatives.

[00:03:03] So how do we convince them to make the change and what role can the government play?

[00:03:08] See, as far as the land holdings concerned, it's one of the major issues.

[00:03:12] And I don't know whether you are aware or not, but the trend has been that there is a 4 to 5 percent shift of agriculture workers from agriculture to other sectors, especially service economy.

[00:03:25] At one side, we keep on boasting about how our service economy is growing and we declare it very good for the country.

[00:03:32] But at the same time, we must also realize that a big chunk, 90 percent chunk of it is coming from agriculture.

[00:03:39] So if the youth of today is not going to take up agriculture, this is a big problem that we are going to face in the coming times.

[00:03:46] Now, the farmers, which are having small land holdings, they are hardly able to get any handholding, particularly from institutions or societies or cooperatives to understand what they can do at this point of time to improve their economic position.

[00:04:08] So if we see any other sector in our country, be it industrial or services, whatever, manufacturing, they always grow, go down, go up, go down.

[00:04:19] It keeps on happening like that.

[00:04:21] But agriculture is one and only sector which is simply going down.

[00:04:25] And agriculture is a farmer, does not want its next generation to be a farmer.

[00:04:32] Even if that farmer wants next generation to be a farmer, the next generation does not want to be there.

[00:04:38] And anybody who is doing that today is out of compulsion either to safeguard their lands or to just going ahead with the flow as he has seen his fathers and forefathers doing it since generations.

[00:04:53] So there is no motivation to stay in this arena and there is no hope that something big or good can happen to be able to continue there.

[00:05:05] So unless we get to a level where small farmers actually make instances and case studies where they have now increased their land holdings and they have got better, right, we are not going to go anywhere in this aspect.

[00:05:22] So it is very, very important, very, very important for our government to do something about it.

[00:05:28] One initiative, I would say, which was taken up recently, like five years back by the government, that is of creation of FPOs, the farmer producer organization.

[00:05:38] So an FPOs, the farmer producer organization.

[00:05:39] So an FPO is a corporate-like body, which is now trending in the cooperative sectors, where one FPO will have 500 small farmers together.

[00:05:51] And there is a board that manages this FPO, which can take collective calls for farmers that what crops they should put in, what kind of agri-inports they should go for, which selection of crop rotation they can go for, and all these things.

[00:06:09] So these things are now catching up and the farmers are getting benefit because of this.

[00:06:14] One very good thing that happens because of this is that the old-age farmers, which is supposedly around 22-23% in our country, out of the farmer community.

[00:06:23] When I say old-age farmers, it means farmers who are above 60 and they're still continuing farming.

[00:06:28] Okay?

[00:06:29] Their flexibility and adaptation becomes a big challenge.

[00:06:33] They are able to get a lot of help from these FPOs, and they don't have to leave their lands.

[00:06:38] So, Maninder, let's ask the fundamental question first.

[00:06:41] Can sustainability and profitability go hand in hand?

[00:06:45] The question is already answered.

[00:06:48] If you just go back in time and see what we were doing in the year 1950, 1960, till about 1970, early 70s.

[00:07:01] So, you know, India is a country which is blessed with natural gifts.

[00:07:07] We have water, we have good tropical climates, we have from mountains to sea, everything.

[00:07:14] Now, agriculture in a country like India is very, very natural.

[00:07:20] Okay?

[00:07:21] And before the induction of chemical fertilizers in our country, which was in 1966, before that,

[00:07:28] we were already in sustainable farming practices through natural methods.

[00:07:32] And the farmer was well-educated.

[00:07:35] The farmer was considered very intelligent community member.

[00:07:42] He could, with his experience and knowledge, predict rainfalls.

[00:07:46] He could predict seasons.

[00:07:48] He could get into the soil fraction and understand what is to be grown, how is to be grown.

[00:07:54] And there are so many instances to this.

[00:07:56] You will be surprised, but in 1905, one gentleman was sent from U.S. to India.

[00:08:04] Albert, something was his name.

[00:08:06] He had been sent to India to figure out how chemical fertilizers market can be established here.

[00:08:13] But after coming here and meeting the farmer community, he made a big revelation across the world in international level that farmers of India are very knowledgeable.

[00:08:28] And they are doing farming, which is sustainable.

[00:08:33] And there's not a single drop of chemical in the fields.

[00:08:35] And they are doing very well.

[00:08:38] He wrote a white paper at that time in 1906, which was called, I don't remember the name clearly now, it's something ecology.

[00:08:47] All right.

[00:08:48] And that white paper was read by many countries and followed also.

[00:08:53] Now, from that position to where we have come today, where farmer is less knowledgeable, farmer is in a deprived state, he's not able to sustain.

[00:09:05] The sustainability was actually when there was natural farming.

[00:09:09] Today, it's a debt crisis.

[00:09:11] It's a man-made crisis that the whole agriculture community is going through.

[00:09:16] Otherwise, out of a country where 71% of land is under agriculture with agriculture dwellers, 86% farmers could not be marginal farmers.

[00:09:30] So we are in a bad state, but it's typically man-made crisis.

[00:09:34] Yeah, also, I think one of the biggest problems today is the pressure that agriculture puts on or pressure that modern agricultural practices put on resources like water.

[00:09:43] Now, how much water can be saved through sustainable practices?

[00:09:49] So my counter question is, what do you want to save this water for?

[00:09:54] Right?

[00:09:55] We are not saving any such water anywhere.

[00:10:00] When our rivers are totally industrialized, when our streams that come out of rivers are looking like nalas and drains, right?

[00:10:11] Right?

[00:10:12] Why do we talk about water saving when it comes to something as important as agriculture?

[00:10:18] I don't think that's the argument, Maninder.

[00:10:23] I think the argument is that as population grows, obviously, the demand on water rises.

[00:10:28] We already have a problem where so much of our groundwater is polluted beyond repair.

[00:10:32] Now, we need to save water in every aspect of life, whether it's domestic consumption, industrial consumption, also agricultural consumption.

[00:10:40] Can sustainable farming practices reduce that water usage?

[00:10:43] Yeah, let me put it technically in front of you.

[00:10:46] So what happens when you use chemical fertilizers and when you use them excessively, your soil becomes hard and it stinks each other in a hard way.

[00:10:57] Now, when the soil is hard, it does not hold water.

[00:11:00] And when it does not hold water, your water levels go down, right?

[00:11:05] So if you talk about water saving and water conservation, it's chemical fertilizers which are largely the reason why all this is happening, why the tables are going down,

[00:11:16] why we cannot have good drinking water to a level where we want it.

[00:11:21] And as far as natural farming is concerned, if you do natural farming, your water level definitely increases because the organic carbon increases in the soil.

[00:11:33] When organic carbon increases, the microbes, the nutrients, the bacterias, remember 25% of life is in the soil that we see on this planet, just like you and us, right?

[00:11:46] So that whole 25% of life thrives very, very well in the soil and it makes the soil very fertile, very rich, very nutrient friendly and very strong to be able to give power to the roots to transport the required micronutrients to the plant for the crops to grow.

[00:12:09] So as far as water is concerned, of course, I am with you on saving the water platform.

[00:12:15] But at the same time, it is again the excessive use of chemical fertilizers because of which water holding capacity is suffering lastly.

[00:12:24] Natural farming is again a solution to it.

[00:12:27] Right.

[00:12:27] So, Ayinder, as I was researching this episode, I read also that there are capacity constraints when it comes to the production, distribution, storage and quality of the bio inputs that sustainable farming requires.

[00:12:38] Could you talk a little bit about that?

[00:12:40] See, the capacity constraint is not that natural cannot do something which chemical is doing.

[00:12:46] The capacity constraint is because we have chemicalized ourselves so largely.

[00:12:53] I'll give you two examples.

[00:12:54] One, if you talk about ATs, we used to practice, let's say, one acre of land.

[00:13:01] We will use around one bag, which is like 40 kg of DAP for sowing purposes.

[00:13:09] And we will use around two, two and a half bags, which is like 100 kgs of urea for plant growth.

[00:13:16] Today, because of excessive chemicalization, what we have reached is two to three bags of DAP per acre and six to eight bags of urea per acre.

[00:13:28] Now, when this much amount of chemical is put in the fields, what happens?

[00:13:33] At one side, your agri input cost goes up.

[00:13:36] On the other side, more the chemical, more you attract the pest and the insects.

[00:13:42] Now, more you attract the pest and insect, the more you have to spend to keep them away.

[00:13:49] And more is your crop loss.

[00:13:51] So, the sustainable farming is not as sustainable as chemical.

[00:13:57] That is not something right to say.

[00:13:58] But if you have a field which has been treated with chemical fertilizers since last 50 years,

[00:14:06] then if you go to sustainable farming, all of a sudden, of course, the production will drop.

[00:14:11] The soil will not be able to behave properly.

[00:14:14] Right.

[00:14:14] So, what we need is proper training to farmers where it happens gradually.

[00:14:19] So, and some of the crops, if the crop is an underground crop like a potato, something,

[00:14:25] you need at least two to three cycles to convert from chemical-based to safe farming.

[00:14:30] Okay.

[00:14:31] I don't say organic.

[00:14:32] I am.

[00:14:33] Let me.

[00:14:33] We'll talk about that later in this session.

[00:14:35] That for my side, organic is a myth as far as India is concerned.

[00:14:40] Right.

[00:14:40] There are very few places where you can actually do organic.

[00:14:43] Otherwise, organic is a total myth.

[00:14:44] And we as a country, okay, we'll talk about that later.

[00:14:49] Coming back to my point that for crops that are underground and short crops, two to four cycles,

[00:14:55] you can convert from chemical to natural farming, gradually reducing the chemicals and gradually

[00:15:01] increasing the doses of natural agri-biased inputs.

[00:15:05] On the other side, long crops like sugarcane, like wheat or rice, where you need a lot of water, then it may take seven to eight crops to do this process.

[00:15:17] Because more the water, more the organic content is not able to stay what you add on the top.

[00:15:22] All right.

[00:15:23] For sowing or for nutrient value.

[00:15:25] So that is how it is actually, you know, that is.

[00:15:31] Right.

[00:15:31] Before we proceed, I should just tell listeners that when Maninder says DOP, he's referring to diamine phosphate, which is one of the preferred fertilizers in India.

[00:15:41] Maninder, there's also a policy mismatch, isn't there?

[00:15:44] On the one hand, you have talked about shifting to sustainable farming.

[00:15:47] But on the other hand, there are massive subsidies for chemical inputs.

[00:15:51] How do we direct this?

[00:15:53] How candid you want me to be?

[00:15:56] And on this show, absolutely candid.

[00:15:58] Okay.

[00:15:59] Gives me a lot of licenses.

[00:16:01] So see, we are a political thought process nation.

[00:16:05] Any policy that is made in a country is thought from political angles.

[00:16:09] And agriculture is the biggest political observant because most of our community is in agriculture.

[00:16:16] Now, what happens is probably we are so intelligent and so smart that on an average, do you know that in the year 2023, we spent 2,35,000 crores on subsidizing chemical fertilizers in the country?

[00:16:32] All right.

[00:16:33] This number in 2014 was around 44,000 crores.

[00:16:37] Now, because of the chemical fertilizers, insecticides and all rates going high in the international market, we cannot still get away with it.

[00:16:48] But we have to keep providing the farmers the same chemicals, agri-chemical imports and pesticides, insecticides at the same rates.

[00:16:57] So we cannot increase their rates, but we are paying much more subsidies to the sellers and foreign exporters who are dumping their chemical fertilizers to India.

[00:17:07] Right.

[00:17:08] And we are paying these high bills.

[00:17:09] And imagine as compared to that on one side, how much is the budget allocated for sustainability or organic farming?

[00:17:18] It will not be even 2% of what is being spent for chemical fertilizers and subsidizing them.

[00:17:25] All right.

[00:17:25] So it's such a big gap, such a big gap, and it needs to be mended as soon as possible.

[00:17:31] But it's a very sensitive issue.

[00:17:34] If not done properly, we can have a crisis.

[00:17:36] So it needs to be done in a very delicate manner.

[00:17:40] And a lot of stakeholders need to actually work on ground to get this happening.

[00:17:45] Right.

[00:17:46] Since in our country, we do talk about agriculture, we do talk about a lot of things,

[00:17:51] but the country is managed by states in all their respective areas, and central government just sets mixed policies.

[00:18:00] There is nothing that goes from the policy level, from the top to bottom.

[00:18:05] So the policy starts from the center, goes to state, ends there.

[00:18:09] Now the state has to play its part to go.

[00:18:11] So there is break at policy level at various levels.

[00:18:14] That's why the farmer, which is at the bottom of the pyramid, is not able to get benefit.

[00:18:20] Right.

[00:18:21] There is also talk of zero-budget farming, zero-budget natural farming, I should say.

[00:18:27] Could you explain what that is and whether it is taking root in India at all?

[00:18:31] See, zero-budget farming is possible when you have healthy cattle in your farms.

[00:18:39] Jo Bharat Desh mein daumata bula jata hai.

[00:18:43] That is not pertaining to that we respect cow or cattle because we respected like a god since beginning.

[00:18:51] It actually played the role of a god for the farmer because it will give your children milk.

[00:18:57] It will give you cow dung.

[00:18:59] It will give you mutra, which has its own nutrition value.

[00:19:04] The mutra used to be used as bio pesticide.

[00:19:08] The cow dung used to be used as bio manure, the milk to feed the family.

[00:19:14] And all this put together, the circular economy was formed.

[00:19:18] But with the land holdings going down, with the cattle holding going down, with improper feed to cattle.

[00:19:25] Imagine we as humans cannot boast of having very healthy food in India, especially in metro cities.

[00:19:31] All our food is largely chemicalized.

[00:19:35] Now we are seeing so many things like hard attacks to young people, cancer in every home.

[00:19:41] We have literally become the cancer and sugar capital of the world.

[00:19:44] Right?

[00:19:45] So with all these problems, if humans are at this level, you can imagine what cattle has to go through.

[00:19:51] Now when the cattle itself is not healthy, how will the urine or the dung or the milk even that is coming out from the cattle be healthy?

[00:19:59] So, you know, it will take an age to revive that entire zero farming process because it is circular economy which was practiced in our country very well earlier.

[00:20:10] But now we have totally lost grip of it.

[00:20:14] Mani, one of the major concerns has been the plummeting level of soil health in India.

[00:20:18] Why is this happening and how would sustainable farming practices help?

[00:20:24] See, like I told you earlier, we used to use this DAP and urea insecticides in a particular way.

[00:20:33] Now the use has become so much.

[00:20:35] You know, what is the outcome impact of it?

[00:20:38] So like earlier, if I say that I would use one kg of NPK to yield 80 kg of wheat from one acre of land, for example.

[00:20:47] Okay.

[00:20:49] As compared to today, this one kg of NPK will give me only 16 kg output.

[00:20:57] And that is because of excessive use of chemicals.

[00:21:01] Now what has happened is, when we were young, we have heard our grandparents, our parents talk about this thing.

[00:21:20] That thing is not possible now.

[00:21:22] Because when we were young, our organic carbon used to be 2-3% in the soil.

[00:21:28] But with excessive use of chemical fertilizer, we have literally killed our organic carbon percentage.

[00:21:33] And our organic carbon today is 0.6 to 0.7%.

[00:21:38] And trust me, Ashraf, at 0.3%, the land is unfit for farming.

[00:21:44] It becomes banjar land.

[00:21:46] It becomes parry land.

[00:21:47] So this is how close we are in killing ourselves.

[00:21:51] And we are not realizing how close we are to this disaster.

[00:21:54] All right.

[00:21:55] Probably one gentleman called Sadhguru had run a big campaign of safe soil.

[00:22:00] When he said safe soil, the only thing that he wanted to save is the organic carbon in the soil, which nobody, again, nobody is talking about.

[00:22:08] So it is very important.

[00:22:09] Very, very important aspect.

[00:22:11] And again, before I proceed, I should tell listeners that when Manitra refers to NPK, it's a kind of fertilizer and the initials stand for nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.

[00:22:20] Manitra, what are some of the trends we are seeing in sustainable agriculture?

[00:22:24] For example, I know crop rotation and intercropping are being looked at very seriously.

[00:22:29] It's a very important thing.

[00:22:30] See, this is what knowledge is all about.

[00:22:32] So whatever we do in life, we need innovation.

[00:22:35] We need partnerships.

[00:22:36] We need collaboration.

[00:22:37] Similarly, when the crops are grown in the field, they also need collaboration.

[00:22:40] They also need innovation.

[00:22:41] They also need space to grow.

[00:22:43] For example, we do one crop and we keep doing it all throughout the year.

[00:22:49] Right?

[00:22:49] It will definitely give you less output because there will be time as per the season where your field will be empty.

[00:22:57] So you do one crop, it has to be backed up with another.

[00:23:02] You're doing gehum.

[00:23:03] Uske baad sarso laga do.

[00:23:04] Sarso ke baad saath mein sabjiya laga do.

[00:23:07] And if you're doing ganna, ganne ke saath ful laga do.

[00:23:10] And you know, all these things not only scientifically help the vegetation or the crops to grow, but it also keeps the insects and pests away.

[00:23:21] So there is a science for everything that was being practiced in India 50 years back, which we have just left.

[00:23:30] And there are six such books which are available if we search like Brahmsahita and Vriksha Ayurveda and four other books which were written just like Vedas and Purans.

[00:23:43] Actually, these books should be given importance of holy books, right?

[00:23:49] If you want to sustain as human race.

[00:23:52] But nobody actually bothers about them.

[00:23:53] Nobody actually promotes them and uses them.

[00:23:56] So that is very unfortunate on our part that leaving our actual wealth behind, we are just following what the Western world did with very less scientific knowledge of agriculture.

[00:24:08] Right now today, we've reached a level where they are much better than us and we are nowhere.

[00:24:14] Imagine Ashraf, a small country like Netherlands exports more agri-produced than entire India.

[00:24:22] Can you believe that?

[00:24:23] There's a staggering step.

[00:24:26] Because our food is considered unfit for eating in 56 countries across the world.

[00:24:32] So in keeping with what you said about these books that you mentioned, do you think there is enough investment in research in sustainable agriculture?

[00:24:41] Yes, sir.

[00:24:42] There is definitely enough investment in theoretical ways and means of research in our country.

[00:24:52] But practically, we are far, far away.

[00:24:55] I'll give you a few examples.

[00:24:57] So if today you want to start manufacturing organic manure, you will take at least 12 to 15 months to get a license for that.

[00:25:06] And once you take the license, you'll start manufacturing your organic agri-inports.

[00:25:11] And you want trials to be done by agriculture universities or such institutions.

[00:25:16] They will say, okay, come Ashraf, pay us 5 lakhs and we'll give you the trial report in 5 years.

[00:25:22] Now, how do you sustain with these kind of practices?

[00:25:26] And these practices were definitely made by people who don't want sustainable agriculture to happen.

[00:25:30] And we have not changed them since 45 years now.

[00:25:36] So a lot of investment is happening, going to drains, not giving any impact on the ground.

[00:25:42] So I consider it investment because it is cash going down the drain.

[00:25:46] But at the same time, the impact is not more than 2%.

[00:25:50] Wow.

[00:25:51] So are there any successes internationally that India can learn from when it comes to sustainable practices?

[00:25:56] Sir, with due respect, go to any Scandinavian country.

[00:26:01] Go to your closest neighbors called Philippines.

[00:26:05] Go to, you know, any, you go to Mexico.

[00:26:10] Okay.

[00:26:11] You go to Israel.

[00:26:12] India has a lot of partnerships in agriculture with Israel.

[00:26:15] You go to Israel and you see how they have grown in agriculture.

[00:26:20] They are exporting from their small land, feeding their people and doing what not.

[00:26:24] Now, these are all things to learn.

[00:26:27] I'll tell you one very important aspect, Ashraf.

[00:26:29] It was in 1985 that in our country, fertilizer control order was made.

[00:26:35] That's a book which says what all agri-input can go into the field as a registered product.

[00:26:41] And what agri-input's definition was in that book as per the nutrient value in 1985, that is still continuing in 2024.

[00:26:51] Now, imagine there is a field and you have plugged so much of chemical in it in the last 35 years.

[00:26:57] But if you want to do the organic or bio-agri-inputs in that field, then your norms are still the same what used to be in 1985.

[00:27:06] So will that work?

[00:27:07] Definitely not.

[00:27:09] And that is where we still are.

[00:27:10] So that's what I'm saying.

[00:27:11] Our agriculture is too book-friendly, too theoretical.

[00:27:16] And we really have to come out of this trap to be able to bring something good on the ground.

[00:27:23] And as far as impact is concerned, you go to any country today, any country.

[00:27:28] All right.

[00:27:29] And you will see the difference how they're handling it.

[00:27:32] Can industry play a role in encouraging sustainable farming?

[00:27:35] Are there any prominent examples of partnerships that you have come across?

[00:27:39] So when chemical fertilizers were introduced in the country and they were spread out across the country,

[00:27:47] it's an industry which is easily around 10 lakh crores a year.

[00:27:52] Now, I'll ask you two simple questions.

[00:27:55] There are other industries like that of this size particularly, like car manufacturers, mobile manufacturers, clothes manufacturers.

[00:28:03] If I ask you, Ashraf, tell me name of three big players in car manufacturers, you will definitely tell me.

[00:28:09] If I tell you, ask you, tell me three, four names of mobile phone manufacturers, you will tell me.

[00:28:14] Now, I'm asking you, please tell me the top two chemical fertilizer manufacturing companies.

[00:28:22] Can you tell me?

[00:28:24] Have you heard of such companies who are making DAP, urea and chemical insecticides and you've heard about them?

[00:28:30] You've known about them?

[00:28:31] Well, I would because I have a journalism background.

[00:28:34] RCF comes to mind, for example.

[00:28:36] But I mean, generally speaking, I don't think people know.

[00:28:40] Yeah, so even RCF is not the right answer.

[00:28:43] Imagine.

[00:28:44] All right.

[00:28:45] Now, what happens is this thing is spread in the country by foreign players in such a way that each of these companies has 80,000, 1 lakh employees.

[00:28:59] But you will never hear about them.

[00:29:01] In fact, all what you will hear is the companies of India like RCF, FIFCO, CRIPCO, who are taking material from them and distributing to the whole world or to the whole country.

[00:29:14] All right.

[00:29:15] And you don't even know which corporations you have to fight if you have to enter this arena.

[00:29:21] All right.

[00:29:22] Now, going to the ground level at the bottom of the pyramid, outside that fertilizer selling shop, where a person of this company is sitting every day reading newspaper and guiding people to use chemical fertilizers.

[00:29:35] How do you think you are going to break this shackle?

[00:29:38] So, it has to be done by government with a lot of support, policy, imports, changes, reforms put together.

[00:29:47] Otherwise, we are very close to killing our lands.

[00:29:53] As I said, we are at 0.7 percent, organic carbon at 0.3 percent.

[00:29:59] We will have to look for alternatives.

[00:30:01] Right.

[00:30:02] Is there any role that technology can play in sustainable farming?

[00:30:06] Technology can play the biggest role right now.

[00:30:09] So, see, the biggest technology that I would say that government should promote now is crop mapping.

[00:30:16] So, you have satellite surveys.

[00:30:18] You know exactly when you are going to get rain in a particular area.

[00:30:22] You know exactly when the wind is going to go in a gush.

[00:30:25] So, if I am a farmer, I have a smartphone.

[00:30:28] Everybody has a smartphone now.

[00:30:29] Okay.

[00:30:30] And on this smartphone, 70 percent of the farmers of India now use smartphone.

[00:30:34] Okay.

[00:30:35] Now, on this smartphone, if I get a notification today that, oh, please don't use the pesticide or insecticide because it's going to be strong wind.

[00:30:44] So, if I put pesticide, insecticide, the wind will blow it away.

[00:30:47] I will not do it today.

[00:30:48] I will do it tomorrow.

[00:30:49] So, this kind of information comes from crop mapping.

[00:30:53] Right.

[00:30:53] And then, like you said, water saving.

[00:30:55] So, if I know exactly where I have to irrigate my field after crop mapping, right, you will save a lot of water.

[00:31:02] If you know exactly, I want to start agriculture here on this particular piece of land and how this land has behaved in last 10 years.

[00:31:10] What did we grow here?

[00:31:11] What is the area nearby?

[00:31:12] Where this produce is going to sell?

[00:31:14] What I am doing here particularly?

[00:31:16] You will get all this information through crop mapping, through digital agriculture.

[00:31:21] And digital agriculture has to be part of farmers' daily life in order to save our land, in order to get better produce, in order to save our crops from pests and insects, in order to save water, in order to go ahead towards sustainable agriculture.

[00:31:39] So, Manitra, tell us about the CEF group and its journey.

[00:31:43] So, we are born out of three commitments that we made to ourselves in the year 2012.

[00:31:51] They are, one, that we want to treat the waste of the country.

[00:31:54] So, people call it waste.

[00:31:56] I don't call it waste as such.

[00:31:58] Okay, when we talk about waste to health, you know, there is so much of organic residue in our country to which can be converted to what not.

[00:32:07] Leave aside agri-inputs.

[00:32:08] We are a self-sustainable country.

[00:32:10] As far as agri-inputs is concerned, if we use all the organic waste to be converted to agri-inputs.

[00:32:16] On the other side, this organic residue coming from the fields, right, can be used for furniture making, pottery, for whatnot.

[00:32:26] Right?

[00:32:26] But we are currently using less than 6% of our organic residue which is coming out from the farms.

[00:32:33] Less than 6%.

[00:32:35] All right.

[00:32:36] Now, what we decided as a group in 2012 that we are going to work in three areas to survive and to grow.

[00:32:44] One is to convert this organic residue to something useful, be it biofuels, be it organic manure, or be it other agri-inputs.

[00:32:54] Now, as CEF group, our production is around 85,000 tons a year.

[00:32:59] We have just recently commissioned our second factory where around 70,000 tons of lakeweed from Dal Lake in Srinagar.

[00:33:08] We are converting to organic manure and giving it out to the farmers in Kashmir at a much lower price than what they were getting the bioavari-inputs for.

[00:33:15] So, that is what we are doing.

[00:33:17] That is one thing that we are doing.

[00:33:18] Second is the soil challenge.

[00:33:21] We are very keenly dedicated to controlling the damages that have been done to the soil.

[00:33:28] And we want to revive the soil health through replacing chemical fertilizers with organic agri-inputs.

[00:33:36] And third, we want to create as many jobs as possible.

[00:33:40] So, as a group, as CEF, we stand for Clean Energy Focus.

[00:33:45] And as clean and into energy and focusing on these three areas, we want to go ahead with support of people like you and everybody around.

[00:33:57] Right.

[00:33:58] So, Marinder, here's a question I ask all my guests at the end of the show.

[00:34:02] Why do you do this work?

[00:34:04] This is a tattoo of Bhagat Singh on my right shoulder.

[00:34:08] And we consider our real heroes, our real heroes of the country have given away their lives for saving this nation, protecting this nation, bringing reforms to this nation.

[00:34:18] So, we continue to respect them and we continue to bow our heads in front of them, even more than what we bow in front of God's.

[00:34:26] Right.

[00:34:28] But just to, you know, make sure that as a community, we are what we are.

[00:34:34] We have a lot of heritage.

[00:34:35] We have a lot of background.

[00:34:37] We have a lot of character.

[00:34:39] We have a lot of strength.

[00:34:41] And somehow, people have taken advantage.

[00:34:44] Our own political systems have taken advantage, created a divide.

[00:34:50] And we need to think about the bigger things in life rather than who I do, who am I, what you do, what I do.

[00:34:57] We have to work with a purpose, which is that we should make our country what we have heard our country was from our ancestors.

[00:35:05] All right.

[00:35:06] It's not about 100 years back when British looted us, but it's even before that how by all of them came to our country.

[00:35:15] You know, that itself is a testimony to the fact how rich, culturally educated and knowledgeable we were always.

[00:35:24] But somehow we have just lost track.

[00:35:26] And now if we have to get back to track, we have to really think about these important aspects to be able to sustain ourselves, number one.

[00:35:33] And number two, to give a good life to our generations to come.

[00:35:38] So I have a nine-year-old daughter.

[00:35:40] Tomorrow when she grows up and she sees us doing all this, I want her to be proud of the fact what her father is doing.

[00:35:45] Right.

[00:35:46] Not only for making money, but at the other end, making a community, developing a sustainable ecosystem, environment protection.

[00:35:54] So that is how we are motivated, you know, in order to achieve what we are trying to achieve.

[00:35:59] So I proudly say that as CEF, we are a purpose-driven organization.

[00:36:05] Of course, we need money to sustain.

[00:36:07] We also have our own material, you know, ambitions.

[00:36:12] But they mostly come from how many communities we can engage at rural level, at the bottom of the pyramid to make their lives better economically and health-wise and environmentally.

[00:36:23] Maninder, thanks so much for being on the show.

[00:36:25] It's my pleasure.

[00:36:26] It's great to see you.

[00:36:27] You're full of energy.

[00:36:28] And, you know, we need support and blessings of brothers like you around.

[00:36:36] All Indians matter.