In this episode of the Thrifty Titans. podcast, we connect with Chris Lu, the regional head of Marketing & Communications at the Any Mind Group, a global technology company empowering brands, publishers, and creators with cutting-edge production, e-commerce, marketing, and logistics solutions in over 13 markets worldwide.
We delve into branding startup strategies, exploring why branding is more crucial than ever for contemporary startups. Our discussion covers topics such as decoding the brand-building vs performance marketing debate in a startup marketing plan and understanding how to uphold authenticity in brand positioning for your business over time. Additionally, we shed light on the role of startup social media marketing in today's digital landscape and much more.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. I'm sa marketer, creative and all around Alpha nerd.
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Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the you incorporated podcast On this show, I
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Saikat Pyne: catch up with some truly bad ass entrepreneurs, business leaders,
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Saikat Pyne: marketers and content creators to discuss thoughts, stories and ideas
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Saikat Pyne: at the intersection of business influence and design. If you
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Saikat Pyne: want to stay ahead of the curve and build your
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Saikat Pyne: brand your voice your way, you're in the right place.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. Hello and welcome to the you Incorporated podcast. Please
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Saikat Pyne: join me in welcoming Chris Liu, a dear friend and
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Saikat Pyne: the regional head for marketing and communications with the Edie
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Saikat Pyne: Mine Group.
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Saikat Pyne: The Any Mine Group is a global technology company that
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Saikat Pyne: enables brands, publishers and creators with next generation production, e-commerce
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Saikat Pyne: marketing and logistics solutions in over 13 markets around the world.
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Saikat Pyne: Chris joined the any mine group in its early days,
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Saikat Pyne: and he has built a strong team of marketers, storytellers
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Saikat Pyne: and creators who have helped build the brand's reputation over
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Saikat Pyne: the years.
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Saikat Pyne: In his current role, Chris claims to market to marketers,
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Saikat Pyne: influences influencers and and publish content. That is about publishers.
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Saikat Pyne: I lo I love that line. Welcome to the podcast, Chris.
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Chris Lu: So happy to be here.
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Saikat Pyne: Lovely. So So tell me, Chris, you have done your
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Saikat Pyne: fair share of branding, marketing and communications work the term
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Saikat Pyne: branding people use it interchangeably with logo and and visual identity. Right?
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Saikat Pyne: So right off the bat before we even get going,
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Saikat Pyne: let's set the record straight once and for all. What
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Saikat Pyne: is branding?
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Chris Lu: OK, so I would say this is my opinion on branding.
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Chris Lu: So basically, to me, branding is a set of meanings
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Chris Lu: or perceptions associated with something. Um so stuff like logos
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Chris Lu: visual identity contribute to this set of meanings. Um, also
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Chris Lu: together
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Chris Lu: areas such as like communicated messages, products, actions like CS
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Chris Lu: R activities that also contribute to branding. So, essentially, it's
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Chris Lu: not just what how the company looks like, but also
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Chris Lu: what the company says, what the company does and what
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Chris Lu: the company is.
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Chris Lu: Essentially all of this forms branding for a company,
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Saikat Pyne: right, Right. And why do you think it's even important
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Saikat Pyne: for for startups to take their branding seriously?
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Chris Lu: OK, so what I would say is that essentially brand
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Chris Lu: building should start from the first day. Um, so the
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Chris Lu: great thing is that the brand that you're building from
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Chris Lu: day one doesn't have to be the final version. So
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Chris Lu: it will continue to evolve and grow over time together
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Chris Lu: with your business. Um so, like one of the reasons
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Chris Lu: why branding is important is so that startups can stand
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Chris Lu: out amongst their peers and competitors. Um so, for example,
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Chris Lu: a startup doing,
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Chris Lu: say, influencer marketing technology. So when this startup is founded,
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Chris Lu: it may or may not already have, like established competitors. Um,
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Chris Lu: but also, as the business grows, there will be similar
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Chris Lu: startups founded as well, especially businesses, um, or even established businesses.
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Chris Lu: They might also launch the same
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Chris Lu: exact platform or technology. Um, so then how can this
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Chris Lu: startup stand out from everyone else? So in my humble opinion,
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Chris Lu: this literally boils down to branding. And also like when
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Chris Lu: a startup skills consistent branding will also help in terms
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Chris Lu: of stuff like recruitment, um, rally rallying employees towards a
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Chris Lu: certain direction. Um, also areas such as investment partnerships. Customer
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Chris Lu: acquisition as well can be boosted by having a more
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Chris Lu: consistent brand over time,
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Saikat Pyne: right? Right. So a so branding is something that differentiates
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Saikat Pyne: a brand. Would that be good? Would would that be
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Saikat Pyne: right to say
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Chris Lu: Yeah, in a weird way. Yes. Um, I mean, ultimately,
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Chris Lu: branding forms the core essence of a brand. Um and yeah,
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Chris Lu: like like I shared it should be started from the very,
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Chris Lu: very first day, not midway through the startups journey, or like,
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Chris Lu: one year in two years in that might be already
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Chris Lu: too late.
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Saikat Pyne: Right? Right, right. And is branding,
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Saikat Pyne: uh, how a product or a company appears. Is it
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Saikat Pyne: more about the appearance of it, or is it more
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Saikat Pyne: about how the company works or the product works? Is
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Saikat Pyne: it is like, I think there was a code that
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Saikat Pyne: read Design is not how a product looks. Uh, it's
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Saikat Pyne: about how a product works, right? So what's what's What's
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Saikat Pyne: that for?
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Saikat Pyne: Branding is branding how something looks and feels, Or is
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Saikat Pyne: it about how it operates and how it comes off? Uh,
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Saikat Pyne: and and how it adds value to your life. What
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Saikat Pyne: is more, a part of branding or is it all
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Saikat Pyne: a part of branding?
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Chris Lu: Very good question, I would say both have to come
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Chris Lu: together to form something that
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Chris Lu: sticks in people's minds. So, for example, a company can
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Chris Lu: have super amazing branding, but really bad products and people
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Chris Lu: would might get attracted by the branding. They and then
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Chris Lu: they try the products and then they realise that, OK,
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Chris Lu: this is not that great after all. But if a
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Chris Lu: company has great branding, great products, then that whole customer
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Chris Lu: experience will be
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Chris Lu: very, very sticky. Um, whether it's a startup, whether it's
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Chris Lu: an established company. Um So OK, let let me just
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Chris Lu: pick out an example from somewhere. Um, so a company
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Chris Lu: like Apple, I would say Apple has really good branding. Um,
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Chris Lu: and they have decent products as well. Um, so essentially,
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Chris Lu: that whole customer experience from being attracted from
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Chris Lu: and and purchasing, um, for example, a MacBook, um, to
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Chris Lu: using the MacBook and being satisfied with the experience on
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Chris Lu: the MacBook Um that will then contribute to whether it's
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Chris Lu: repeat purchases. Or is it, um, word of mouth marketing
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Chris Lu: and so on. So essentially both have to work together,
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Saikat Pyne: right? So branding can't be spin branding. Can't just be
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Saikat Pyne: about what you want to come off. It also has
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Saikat Pyne: to be backed
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Saikat Pyne: with your product experience, right? Because if you're coming off
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Saikat Pyne: as a premium brand and you're willing to charge a
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Saikat Pyne: premium for your products and your services, your product experience
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Saikat Pyne: and and your end user experience has to back that.
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Saikat Pyne: So So branding is not just an impression. It's also
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Saikat Pyne: a promise. Promise that you will then make about an
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Saikat Pyne: about the experience people will have of your product or
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Saikat Pyne: your service. Is that right to say,
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Chris Lu: Yeah, that's right.
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Saikat Pyne: Right. So now let's speak about, uh, where do we
00:07:34
Saikat Pyne: get started? So you worked with multiple, uh, early stage startups? Uh,
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Saikat Pyne: you joined the any mind group when it was an
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Saikat Pyne: early stage startup. And you've seen the company grow into
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Saikat Pyne: this fledgling conglomerate over the past couple of years. So
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Saikat Pyne: tell me, if I am a startup founder, where can
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Saikat Pyne: I get started in terms of branding?
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Chris Lu: Yeah. So it's all about really understanding what's the DNA
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Chris Lu: and vision of a startup paired with what the rest
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Chris Lu: of the industry is doing? Um, and then really finding
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Chris Lu: out what exactly makes you stand out compared to what
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Chris Lu: the rest of the industry is saying And also, um,
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Chris Lu: what in your company or what in your startup is
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Chris Lu: really different from what everyone else in the industry is doing? Um, So,
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Chris Lu: like I said previously, It doesn't have to be the
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Chris Lu: final version of your branding.
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Chris Lu: So let me give an example from any my group. Um, so, yeah,
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Chris Lu: I joined them two months after they started operations. Um,
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Chris Lu: so at that time, um, it was
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Chris Lu: there wasn't
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Chris Lu: a specific
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Chris Lu: image per se of the company. Um, but then around, say,
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Chris Lu: one or two months after I joined the company, um,
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Chris Lu: then we landed on the words like, fast growing startup. Um,
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Chris Lu: so this was also helped by the fact that the
00:09:02
Chris Lu: company was kind of expanding into into new markets and
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Chris Lu: adding more head count and products. Um, So when I joined,
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Chris Lu: it was in June 2016. At that time, the company
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Chris Lu: was just in Singapore and Thailand.
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Chris Lu: By the end of 2016, the company moved into India,
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Chris Lu: Vietnam and Taiwan as well. So yeah, literally. Within eight months,
00:09:24
Chris Lu: the company expanded to five different markets. Um, so that
00:09:27
Chris Lu: was the the kind of tone we went up with
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Chris Lu: for the first 2 to 3 years or so. Um, so, yeah.
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Chris Lu: I mean, even today, the company continues to grow even more. Um,
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Chris Lu: yeah, I I I can go on about a lot
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Chris Lu: of company steps, but, um, basically, um, using this term
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Chris Lu: fast growing startup, it cannot last forever. Um, and it
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Chris Lu: doesn't give audiences like a strong connection to the company.
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Chris Lu: So
00:09:54
Chris Lu: ultimately, or or I I would say, like, 3 to
00:09:57
Chris Lu: 4 years after that. Um, there was also another aspect
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Chris Lu: that was noticed about the company. Um, which is that
00:10:04
Chris Lu: the company keeps launching, keeps doing new stuff, Um, keeps innovating, um,
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Chris Lu: launching new stuff. So, for example, the company was one
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Chris Lu: of the first to launch into influencer marketing or launch
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Chris Lu: an influencer marketing platform in Asia back in 2016. Um,
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Chris Lu: also one of the first
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Chris Lu: influencer platforms to acquire and influence a network. Um, and
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Chris Lu: then I mean, of course, the company pretty much was
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Chris Lu: one of the first to, um, first marketing tech companies
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Chris Lu: to expand into stuff like manufacturing e-commerce logistics. It's, like,
00:10:38
Chris Lu: totally different stuff. Um, so basically, all
00:10:42
Chris Lu: these business movements were communicated over time, and then, um,
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Chris Lu: customers started, like when customers start to work with us,
00:10:51
Chris Lu: they know that, um, we will always look to add
00:10:54
Chris Lu: more value for them. Um, as we have done over
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Chris Lu: the years. So essentially that image. That perception will change
00:11:03
Chris Lu: over time. Um, but for a start, it's really important
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Chris Lu: to find out what makes the company unique.
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Chris Lu: So know what your competitors are doing. Consistently communicate your
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Chris Lu: brand over time across all the different channels from sales
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Chris Lu: advertising website, social media, Um, and of course, internally as well. Um,
00:11:20
Chris Lu: and then essentially, over time, you you kind of know
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Chris Lu: when it's time to start evolving and getting out of
00:11:28
Chris Lu: that very early stage, um, image or branding perception. Right?
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Saikat Pyne: Right. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying,
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Saikat Pyne: um, it's important for a founder or or the mark
00:11:40
Saikat Pyne: the core marketing team, um, at at at a startup
00:11:44
Saikat Pyne: to realise what are the couple of keywords that they'd
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Saikat Pyne: like to focus on in terms of building their brand. So,
00:11:52
Saikat Pyne: like you said, you you you know, for the any
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Saikat Pyne: mind group you wanted to focus on innovation.
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Saikat Pyne: You wanted to focus on driving value for, uh, for
00:12:01
Saikat Pyne: for creators, brands and publishers. Right. And you would want
00:12:05
Saikat Pyne: to focus, uh, on on a fast moving, uh, technologically, uh,
00:12:11
Saikat Pyne: enabled brand that that was a position that you would
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Saikat Pyne: like to take. So it is. It is about doing
00:12:19
Saikat Pyne: a thorough search and a thorough re, uh, doing a
00:12:23
Saikat Pyne: thorough research on the market
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Saikat Pyne: and then defining yourself in relation to the market and
00:12:30
Saikat Pyne: also in terms of what? Your product road map for
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Saikat Pyne: the next couple of months and the next couple of
00:12:35
Saikat Pyne: years is going to look like, Right, So you can't
00:12:38
Saikat Pyne: be uh, uh, you know, a company that is multiple
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Saikat Pyne: years into its lifespan and still be calling itself a startup.
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Saikat Pyne: You will have to grow out of it at some
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Saikat Pyne: point of time,
00:12:48
Saikat Pyne: right?
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Chris Lu: Yeah, totally.
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Saikat Pyne: Right. So now tell me, Chris, uh,
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Saikat Pyne: on the topic of branding, how much of branding do
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Saikat Pyne: you think is defined by your audience?
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Saikat Pyne: Uh, which is what is what others think of you
00:13:04
Saikat Pyne: and how much of branding is based on what you
00:13:07
Saikat Pyne: define your brand as
00:13:10
Saikat Pyne: in terms of the scale of where it is. Uh,
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Saikat Pyne: you know, I I I read this quote somewhere that
00:13:18
Saikat Pyne: said that your talent is your your reputation somehow isn't right. Uh,
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Saikat Pyne: I think it was an Indian comedian. I think you know,
00:13:27
Saikat Pyne: he said he said that on, uh, on one of
00:13:30
Saikat Pyne: these podcasts. So, in terms of branding,
00:13:33
Saikat Pyne: how much of branding is about what others say and
00:13:37
Saikat Pyne: what others perceive you to be and how much of
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Saikat Pyne: it is about how you want to project yourself and
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Saikat Pyne: how you market
00:13:45
Chris Lu: yourself? Very good question. Um, OK, so I I would
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Chris Lu: then say
00:13:51
Chris Lu: it differs depending on the stage of the company. So
00:13:55
Chris Lu: when you're a startup, um, it really, uh I would
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Chris Lu: say it's like, 90% what you think of the company? 10%
00:14:03
Chris Lu: what your customers think of the company. Um, and then
00:14:06
Chris Lu: as it gets bigger, then, um, that core customer perception
00:14:10
Chris Lu: of the company or others perception of the company starts to, um,
00:14:14
Chris Lu: that ratio starts to grow. Um, so the reason why
00:14:19
Chris Lu: is because,
00:14:21
Chris Lu: especially in the early stage, if you if others define
00:14:25
Chris Lu: what your company is perceived as then it will be
00:14:30
Chris Lu: very confusing it internally as a founder and also as
00:14:35
Chris Lu: an internal employee as well. Of what
00:14:39
Chris Lu: are they working towards us? So
00:14:43
Chris Lu: yeah, like essentially, if in the early stages you communicate
00:14:46
Chris Lu: what you want to be as a company, then, um,
00:14:50
Chris Lu: to external audiences, then that will essentially set the tone
00:14:55
Chris Lu: both internally, um, including for your your own employees to
00:15:01
Chris Lu: go out into the market to start, um, permeating this
00:15:04
Chris Lu: message into the market. And also, um, what, the company
00:15:09
Chris Lu: as a whole, um,
00:15:11
Chris Lu: essentially shouts about,
00:15:13
Saikat Pyne: Right, Right. So then the, uh, the the for what
00:15:20
Saikat Pyne: I understand from what you said, Chris is
00:15:23
Saikat Pyne: the initial steps. It's about what you think you are.
00:15:27
Saikat Pyne: And when you grow to a certain point where you know,
00:15:30
Saikat Pyne: millions of people have some impression of your brand, your
00:15:34
Saikat Pyne: brand also expands beyond your reach to a point to
00:15:39
Saikat Pyne: also encompass what others think about you, right? Yep, yep.
00:15:44
Saikat Pyne: And that is when it sort of transcends the aspect
00:15:48
Saikat Pyne: of it only being about the founder, the CMO, and
00:15:52
Saikat Pyne: it sort of seeps into other people's minds, right? Just
00:15:55
Saikat Pyne: the way some of the biggest brands on the planet have. Right.
00:15:58
Saikat Pyne: Uh, apple is not just about how the chief marketing
00:16:01
Saikat Pyne: officer or the chief communications officer at Apple defines it
00:16:04
Saikat Pyne: to be. Apple's brand is also about how it is perceived, right?
00:16:08
Saikat Pyne: Uh uh. So and that would include not only impressions,
00:16:13
Saikat Pyne: but also the the product experiences that
00:16:15
Saikat Pyne: people from across the world have of apple, right?
00:16:19
Chris Lu: Yep. And also then the the for example, Apple CMO
00:16:25
Chris Lu: or chief communications officer will have to then find a
00:16:28
Chris Lu: balance between what others perceive and also what the company
00:16:32
Chris Lu: perceives itself as. So That is not easy as well,
00:16:35
Saikat Pyne: right? Absolutely. Because in today's age of social media, everybody
00:16:40
Saikat Pyne: has an opinion, and you can't be pandering to every
00:16:42
Saikat Pyne: person's opinion. But you also have to,
00:16:45
Saikat Pyne: uh, recognise their part of the story right on social media. Uh,
00:16:50
Saikat Pyne: it's It's no longer about a brand telling you something,
00:16:54
Saikat Pyne: advertising its message. It's now a conversation. And if you
00:16:58
Saikat Pyne: purchase my product, I have to honour the conversation
00:17:02
Saikat Pyne: as a marketer in in some ways, um, which will
00:17:05
Saikat Pyne: also then seep into how the brand is going to
00:17:09
Saikat Pyne: be perceived, right?
00:17:10
Chris Lu: Yeah, that's right.
00:17:11
Saikat Pyne: So you see, Chris, when we speak about branding as
00:17:16
Saikat Pyne: something that transcends
00:17:19
Saikat Pyne: what, uh, what the internal team at at the brand does,
00:17:23
Saikat Pyne: what the marketing team or what the founder just thinks
00:17:26
Saikat Pyne: it to be or the CEO thinks it to be.
00:17:28
Saikat Pyne: It becomes somewhat meta, and this is a, uh, this
00:17:33
Saikat Pyne: is a space that can be very, very confusing for
00:17:38
Saikat Pyne: young marketers and and early stage startup founders because it
00:17:43
Saikat Pyne: somehow seems to be,
00:17:45
Saikat Pyne: uh, slightly meta slightly, uh, slightly undefined, uh, which for
00:17:54
Saikat Pyne: early stage startups can be very, very scary. Which is
00:17:57
Saikat Pyne: why many, many founders in the early stages of their
00:18:02
Saikat Pyne: brand development just try and stay away from branding.
00:18:05
Saikat Pyne: Um, and and their statements are pretty much branding. Doesn't
00:18:09
Saikat Pyne: get me any business performance marketing. Does my online advertising
00:18:13
Saikat Pyne: on on Social media does. Branding is not going to
00:18:17
Saikat Pyne: help drive my business forward in the first six months
00:18:20
Saikat Pyne: or the first one year. So why should I even care?
00:18:23
Saikat Pyne: What's your take on that
00:18:25
Chris Lu: very, very, very good question in particular for any mine group? Um,
00:18:31
Chris Lu: what we were focusing on in the early stages, um,
00:18:36
Chris Lu: was just getting as much awareness as possible. Um, so
00:18:41
Chris Lu: not much focus on performance marketing. Um, a lot more
00:18:45
Chris Lu: focus on awareness and branding that helped propel the business. Uh,
00:18:51
Chris Lu: in my opinion, um,
00:18:53
Chris Lu: yeah, but then I would say that both have to
00:18:56
Chris Lu: work in tandem, whether it's for B to B or
00:18:59
Chris Lu: B to C brand and especially for D to C brands.
00:19:02
Chris Lu: Um So, for example, if AD to C brand is
00:19:05
Chris Lu: I mean D to C brands are easy to go
00:19:08
Chris Lu: into new markets. Um, but if there is no branding
00:19:11
Chris Lu: for the D to C brand if if no one
00:19:13
Chris Lu: knows
00:19:14
Chris Lu: about the d d to see Brand, then, um, no
00:19:17
Chris Lu: one would make a purchase for the D to see
00:19:19
Chris Lu: brand for brands, there are new entrants into the market
00:19:22
Chris Lu: or any industry. Um, which, uh, basically a startup is
00:19:26
Chris Lu: as well. Um, you will need to focus on both, um,
00:19:29
Chris Lu: branding and performance marketing at the same time. So even
00:19:33
Chris Lu: if you can suck
00:19:34
Chris Lu: successfully, bring a prospect onto, say, a landing page or
00:19:37
Chris Lu: your website, um, the prospect will still need to trust
00:19:40
Chris Lu: your brand, uh, to basically deliver before they will be, like,
00:19:45
Chris Lu: trust your brand to deliver before they are willing to
00:19:48
Chris Lu: part with their own money. But one of the areas
00:19:51
Chris Lu: where this doesn't apply is in the premium space. Um,
00:19:54
Chris Lu: because customers can already try out the product for themselves.
00:19:58
Chris Lu: So then this comes down to the strength of the products.
00:20:01
Chris Lu: But ultimately,
00:20:02
Chris Lu: um, I would say that branding can have both immediate
00:20:05
Chris Lu: and long term impacts, while performance marketing focuses more often
00:20:10
Chris Lu: than not on immediate gains. Um, however, if you combine, say,
00:20:15
Chris Lu: performance marketing with more branding focus initiatives um, kind of
00:20:19
Chris Lu: looking at the customer acquisition cycle with a more long
00:20:23
Chris Lu: term and cons consistent view. So that's where I would
00:20:27
Chris Lu: say the magic happens,
00:20:28
Saikat Pyne: right? Right. So you say that in the first 6
00:20:32
Saikat Pyne: to 12 months of you launching your brand focus on
00:20:36
Saikat Pyne: your top of the funnel content and top of the
00:20:39
Saikat Pyne: funnel marketing right, that will What? Uh, that's what is
00:20:42
Saikat Pyne: going to help you attract a larger audience
00:20:45
Saikat Pyne: who would be interested in your in your product and
00:20:48
Saikat Pyne: your business, right? And this type of content attention grabbing,
00:20:51
Saikat Pyne: highly engaging biotic uh, visually appealing content is then going
00:20:57
Saikat Pyne: to drive higher interest. And having a solid branding in
00:21:02
Saikat Pyne: having solid branding in place is going to help
00:21:06
Saikat Pyne: uh, drive the con consumer awareness about your product and
00:21:10
Saikat Pyne: your service and then over over the longer period of time.
00:21:14
Saikat Pyne: You can then focus into building a consumer funnel that
00:21:18
Saikat Pyne: is not just about building awareness for the product, but
00:21:21
Saikat Pyne: also trying to convert people who are aware of our
00:21:25
Saikat Pyne: your product into paying consumers,
00:21:27
Chris Lu: right? Yep. Um, so essentially branding then focuses on owned
00:21:34
Chris Lu: and earned channels. Um, and then, yeah, performance marketing on
00:21:37
Chris Lu: paid channels. So the good thing about branding is a
00:21:40
Chris Lu: lot of times you don't have to spend too much money. Um,
00:21:45
Chris Lu: because most of the money goes then into the paid media. Um,
00:21:49
Chris Lu: but essentially owned and earned can get you pretty far
00:21:52
Chris Lu: as start up as well,
00:21:54
Saikat Pyne: right? So it doesn't have to be very expensive for you. Uh,
00:21:57
Saikat Pyne: the the perception is that branding is something that often
00:22:03
Saikat Pyne: costs a bomb, uh, and will burn a hole in
00:22:05
Saikat Pyne: your pocket and performance marketing, because it's perceived to be
00:22:10
Saikat Pyne: this gig that will definitely get you paid customers is
00:22:14
Saikat Pyne: perceived to be this channel for endless, uh, customer acquisition. Right,
00:22:19
Saikat Pyne: that that
00:22:20
Saikat Pyne: doesn't necessarily happen for at least a startups. Because if
00:22:23
Saikat Pyne: some if your consumers or your target audience is not
00:22:27
Saikat Pyne: aware of your brand and they don't perceive you as, uh,
00:22:31
Saikat Pyne: somebody that they'd like to trust their money or their
00:22:35
Saikat Pyne: time with,
00:22:36
Saikat Pyne: it's highly unlikely that you'd be able to simply pour
00:22:40
Saikat Pyne: money into paid ads from one end and get paid
00:22:43
Saikat Pyne: customers on the bottom of the funnel. Uh, on the
00:22:46
Saikat Pyne: other hand, right. So you need to convince them that
00:22:49
Saikat Pyne: that you are a credible brand and you're here to stay,
00:22:53
Saikat Pyne: and you provide credible products and service.
00:22:55
Saikat Pyne: This is for them to be willing to to come
00:22:58
Saikat Pyne: on board, as paid customers. And that is when the
00:23:01
Saikat Pyne: magic happens for paid marketing, right? Yeah, right. So now
00:23:05
Saikat Pyne: let's speak about growing companies because we spoke, We spoke
00:23:10
Saikat Pyne: about this, um, and and the incredible growth curve, uh,
00:23:15
Saikat Pyne: that the any mine group has had. How do you
00:23:18
Saikat Pyne: stay authentic in your branding as as you grow in
00:23:22
Saikat Pyne: your business?
00:23:23
Saikat Pyne: Um, because, like you said what a brand stands for
00:23:29
Saikat Pyne: And, uh, what a brand wants to position itself as
00:23:32
Saikat Pyne: will also change as the brand's aspirations change. And as
00:23:36
Saikat Pyne: the founders aspirations change. So how do you, uh, I
00:23:39
Saikat Pyne: Is it even about consistency, or is it purely about
00:23:44
Saikat Pyne: staying authentic regardless of, uh, whether your your brand is
00:23:50
Saikat Pyne: consistent or not? I
00:23:51
Chris Lu: would say it's a mixture of consistency and storytelling.
00:23:56
Chris Lu: Um so OK, let me give another example from any
00:24:00
Chris Lu: my group. Um, so yeah, basically, in the company's early days,
00:24:05
Chris Lu: it was positioned as something. And then, um, over time,
00:24:08
Chris Lu: it was positioned as something else. So basically. OK, ok,
00:24:12
Chris Lu: let me give you some context
00:24:13
Chris Lu: back story into any mind. Um, so over the years,
00:24:16
Chris Lu: the company has changed its name, its logo, It's product names,
00:24:21
Chris Lu: its focus areas. Um, like from march to commerce enablement
00:24:25
Chris Lu: from online advertising to logistics management, conversational commerce, so many
00:24:30
Chris Lu: different areas. Um, but
00:24:33
Chris Lu: internally, we never really saw it as a rebranding, but
00:24:37
Chris Lu: more like of an evolution of branding. Um, because the
00:24:41
Chris Lu: good thing is that each time the company shifted or
00:24:45
Chris Lu: or expanded, I would say, um, it's always to a
00:24:48
Chris Lu: much better direction. Um, so, like, yeah, the company's logos
00:24:53
Chris Lu: and visual identity changed multiple times like it used to
00:24:58
Chris Lu: be
00:25:00
Chris Lu: at least one
00:25:02
Chris Lu: bigger change
00:25:05
Chris Lu: every year. Um, now, now that has slowed down a lot, but, um,
00:25:11
Chris Lu: basically what was being communicated and what the business stands
00:25:15
Chris Lu: for has not changed at all. I would say, um
00:25:19
Chris Lu: so essentially, the core identity has not changed. Um, and
00:25:23
Chris Lu: that has
00:25:24
Chris Lu: been consistently communicated over the years, which is, um, whether
00:25:28
Chris Lu: it's fast growth, whether it's, um, new new stuff innovation. Um, basically, yeah. So, like,
00:25:35
Chris Lu: we've changed the names of products of logos, but each
00:25:38
Chris Lu: change was made with, um,
00:25:39
Chris Lu: advancement and progress in mind. So, for example, our influencer
00:25:43
Chris Lu: marketing platform was called Casting Asia in the early days. Um,
00:25:47
Chris Lu: but then we we rebranded our our our entire suite
00:25:50
Chris Lu: of products, um, towards any something. Um, so now it's
00:25:54
Chris Lu: called any tech. Um, so basically, that allowed us to
00:25:59
Chris Lu: launch products into
00:26:00
Chris Lu: more, more spaces. Um, such as, like any factory for
00:26:04
Chris Lu: manufacturing and any for logistics. Um, so if we were
00:26:07
Chris Lu: still stuck with, like, casting Asia, um, then we would
00:26:11
Chris Lu: be really stuck with branding new products, for example. Um,
00:26:17
Chris Lu: and also how we we change the product names and stuff.
00:26:21
Chris Lu: Um, all this adds to our own core identity of, like,
00:26:25
Chris Lu: constantly innovating to create new value for our customers. Um,
00:26:29
Chris Lu: so essentially picking the right DNA to build branding on
00:26:32
Chris Lu: and evolving it over time will help your brand remain like,
00:26:35
Chris Lu: relevant and authentic. So I would say it's consistency together
00:26:40
Chris Lu: with storytelling skills,
00:26:43
Saikat Pyne: So it's not so much about the visual identity or
00:26:47
Saikat Pyne: the naming of a product or a service, right? What
00:26:51
Saikat Pyne: you see is the core essence of the brand, which
00:26:53
Saikat Pyne: is the brand's value proposition to its customers. Um, stays
00:26:58
Saikat Pyne: the same. You don't have to worry about getting your
00:27:01
Saikat Pyne: logo right for the the first time. Because you believe
00:27:05
Saikat Pyne: that in the in the life cycle of your product
00:27:08
Saikat Pyne: or your brand,
00:27:09
Saikat Pyne: uh, the logo has to be, uh, you know, consistent.
00:27:13
Saikat Pyne: The logo has to be the same, right? The logo
00:27:15
Saikat Pyne: can evolve, the name can evolve. Uh, products will quite naturally, uh,
00:27:20
Saikat Pyne: be added to your existing, uh, portfolio of of products
00:27:25
Saikat Pyne: and services. And all of that will change as long
00:27:28
Saikat Pyne: as the brand promise and the core traits that you
00:27:33
Saikat Pyne: would like to build your brand around states that stays
00:27:36
Saikat Pyne: the same. Your branding stays consistent.
00:27:39
Saikat Pyne: Is that right to say?
00:27:40
Chris Lu: Yeah, Yeah, I I I would say that has also
00:27:45
Chris Lu: helped quite a number of companies, um, to pivot. So
00:27:50
Chris Lu: the the the first name that came to my mind is, um,
00:27:54
Chris Lu: Facebook pivoting the matter.
00:27:56
Chris Lu: So if if it's some random company saying, Oh, we're
00:27:59
Chris Lu: gonna do this in the no one's gonna care. But
00:28:02
Chris Lu: if it's Facebook, because I mean they they change their name,
00:28:05
Chris Lu: they change the logo. But the core identity of Facebook
00:28:08
Chris Lu: is still in meta meta. So essentially
00:28:12
Chris Lu: people care about me because Facebook has shifted their direction.
00:28:18
Chris Lu: And and then, um yeah, that created some buzz. So
00:28:21
Chris Lu: I I would say that this core identity that Facebook
00:28:26
Chris Lu: had built at the start has helped them
00:28:31
Chris Lu: to reach the today's point.
00:28:34
Saikat Pyne: Absolutely So now tell me, Chris, um, in terms of
00:28:39
Saikat Pyne: how a product is branded when a company's product proposition changes,
00:28:47
Saikat Pyne: when when the company's existing suite of products gets completely rebranded, uh,
00:28:52
Saikat Pyne: or when, uh, it adds a full new suite of products,
00:28:57
Saikat Pyne: the the end customer experience also changes, right? So for Facebook,
00:29:02
Saikat Pyne: until now it was a social media platform. Uh, that would, uh,
00:29:07
Saikat Pyne: you know, uh, connect advertisers with customers or the or
00:29:11
Saikat Pyne: or with its advertising. It would say that it it
00:29:14
Saikat Pyne: it It connects people from around the world, and it
00:29:18
Saikat Pyne: enables online connections and and physical connections. Right. That was
00:29:23
Saikat Pyne: the branding. And now
00:29:25
Saikat Pyne: Facebook is this emerging tech company. Uh, that is into
00:29:32
Saikat Pyne: deep tech into a i into M L into creating this, uh,
00:29:36
Saikat Pyne: V R reality space for brands and individual creators, Right?
00:29:42
Saikat Pyne: So Facebook's product suite has also evolved, right? So do
00:29:47
Saikat Pyne: you think that means that at its core,
00:29:52
Saikat Pyne: it that impacts branding as well? Because your product proposition,
00:30:00
Saikat Pyne: when that changes, that impacts your brand, right? Because
00:30:05
Saikat Pyne: five years back, Facebook was perceived to be a social
00:30:09
Saikat Pyne: media platform, and now Facebook is perceived completely differently, has
00:30:14
Saikat Pyne: a completely new, uh, sort of lineup of products and
00:30:18
Saikat Pyne: services for brands and for for creators. So does that
00:30:21
Saikat Pyne: mean that Facebook's branding has changed? Or do you would
00:30:25
Saikat Pyne: you say that Facebook has rebranded its identity, but its
00:30:30
Saikat Pyne: core proposition of connecting people still sees the same How
00:30:33
Saikat Pyne: how do you look at it?
00:30:34
Chris Lu: I I would say that their core value proposition still
00:30:37
Chris Lu: stays the same, but how they deliver it to customers
00:30:40
Chris Lu: is different today than compared to five years ago.
00:30:44
Saikat Pyne: So it's core value of connecting people stays the same,
00:30:47
Saikat Pyne: and and in that your branding is consistent, right?
00:30:52
Chris Lu: Yeah, yeah, So I I mean, instead of
00:30:56
Chris Lu: doing it through a social media platform, they can do
00:31:00
Chris Lu: it in the Metaverse like connecting people in the Metaverse. So, yeah, essentially,
00:31:04
Chris Lu: that proposition is still the same, but, um, how they
00:31:07
Chris Lu: deliver it, And I would I would then say that
00:31:09
Chris Lu: their identity would also continue to evolve until they reach
00:31:14
Chris Lu: the stage Where, um,
00:31:16
Chris Lu: this metaphor becomes a reality.
00:31:20
Saikat Pyne: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um Now, tell me, Chris, um, if I,
00:31:26
Saikat Pyne: as a founder, have a brand strategy in place, and
00:31:29
Saikat Pyne: I have a product road map, and I have, uh,
00:31:33
Saikat Pyne: a set of product launches scheduled for the coming year.
00:31:37
Saikat Pyne: How do I connect my brand strategy with my advertising
00:31:42
Saikat Pyne: and my marketing? How how do I line those up
00:31:46
Saikat Pyne: In a way that that stays consistent with my branding.
00:31:50
Chris Lu: OK, so, essentially, how I see it is when a
00:31:54
Chris Lu: business communicates about something, um, whether it's through marketing or through, um,
00:31:59
Chris Lu: any other channel, this communication is either focused on product
00:32:04
Chris Lu: people or business. Um so, ultimately, key messages around the
00:32:08
Chris Lu: brand can and and basically should be integrated
00:32:12
Chris Lu: and communicated together. Um, so, for example, branding communicated together
00:32:17
Chris Lu: with product communicated together with people and also business, um,
00:32:22
Chris Lu: and should be consistently communicated across all the all the
00:32:25
Chris Lu: different channels the brand is communicating on. Um, OK, let
00:32:30
Chris Lu: me give you an example. So, for example, I'm a
00:32:33
Chris Lu: business that sells fried chicken. Um, but what makes us
00:32:37
Chris Lu: unique is having the world's spiciest fried chicken.
00:32:40
Chris Lu: Um, so yeah, basically, it would definitely make you sweat
00:32:44
Chris Lu: when you eat.
00:32:45
Chris Lu: My business is fried chicken. Um, so when we communicate
00:32:49
Chris Lu: about the product, it can be communicating. OK, say, for example,
00:32:54
Chris Lu: buy the world's spiciest fried chicken. It will make you sweat. Um,
00:32:58
Chris Lu: so that's for a product. Um, when communicating about the people, Um,
00:33:02
Chris Lu: it can be something like find out what John does
00:33:05
Chris Lu: so that we can sell the world's spiciest fried chicken,
00:33:07
Chris Lu: the chicken that makes you sweat.
00:33:09
Chris Lu: And when communicating about the business, we can say, for example,
00:33:13
Chris Lu: we have made over X number of people sweat because
00:33:16
Chris Lu: of our chicken. So essentially, we can push this branding
00:33:19
Chris Lu: into all the different, um,
00:33:22
Chris Lu: communications, a brand mix as well. And And it can
00:33:26
Chris Lu: also create other, um, marketing initiatives. For example, eating contest
00:33:30
Chris Lu: for the world Spiciest chicken?
00:33:32
Saikat Pyne: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you, um, let let me try and
00:33:37
Saikat Pyne: encapsulate it this way? Would it be fair to say
00:33:40
Saikat Pyne: that
00:33:40
Saikat Pyne: that good marketing is about giving voice to your brand values.
00:33:46
Saikat Pyne: It's about letting your brand value speak for themselves. If
00:33:50
Saikat Pyne: if your differentiating factor is you know, you have the
00:33:54
Saikat Pyne: spiciest fried chicken, then spicy is your brand value,
00:33:58
Saikat Pyne: and then you will try and find creative ways of
00:34:02
Saikat Pyne: communicating that brand value and and just that's that's good marketing, right?
00:34:08
Chris Lu: Yeah, because then people would remember you for what you
00:34:11
Chris Lu: want them to remember you for.
00:34:14
Saikat Pyne: And it would be good if you could distil your product. Uh,
00:34:18
Saikat Pyne: the the differentiating factors,
00:34:20
Saikat Pyne: uh, are you know, on your product if you could
00:34:25
Saikat Pyne: distil your products, uh, key differentiators into a couple of
00:34:31
Saikat Pyne: points and then communicate these in multiple creative ways, right?
00:34:36
Saikat Pyne: Like like you said, you know, having a show where?
00:34:39
Saikat Pyne: Where, Uh, you know, multiple, uh, celebrities or other sort
00:34:43
Saikat Pyne: of important, uh, fun media personalities come and and And have.
00:34:47
Saikat Pyne: I think there there is a There is a YouTube show, uh,
00:34:50
Saikat Pyne: like that right where a bunch of people come together
00:34:54
Saikat Pyne: and they have increasingly hotter fried chicken.
00:34:57
Saikat Pyne: I just can't think of the name, but I think
00:34:59
Saikat Pyne: there's a show like that, right? I think it's hot
00:35:01
Chris Lu: ones or hot wings or something.
00:35:03
Saikat Pyne: Right? Right, right, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember
00:35:07
Saikat Pyne: watching a couple of episodes with, you know, multiple Hollywood
00:35:10
Saikat Pyne: celebrities on them, right? So that these are just new
00:35:14
Saikat Pyne: and exciting media formats for you to be
00:35:17
Saikat Pyne: communicating your brand values. Right. So by giving voice to
00:35:21
Saikat Pyne: your brand values, you are now enabling people to remember
00:35:26
Saikat Pyne: you the way you want them to remember you. Or
00:35:29
Saikat Pyne: at least you are nudging people to remember you the
00:35:31
Saikat Pyne: way you would want them to remember. You and your products, Right?
00:35:37
Saikat Pyne: Lovely, lovely. So now, tell me, uh, Chris, uh, what
00:35:43
Saikat Pyne: do you think is the future of startup branding? Given
00:35:46
Saikat Pyne: that
00:35:48
Saikat Pyne: the way we perceive startups and the way we perceive
00:35:51
Saikat Pyne: companies are also changing because, uh, there's just so much
00:35:56
Saikat Pyne: tech involvement in how a company operates. A company is
00:36:01
Saikat Pyne: no longer.
00:36:02
Saikat Pyne: You know, especially in this digital world, a company is
00:36:05
Saikat Pyne: no longer defined by the the traditional boundaries of, you know,
00:36:09
Saikat Pyne: five guys in an office, right? Uh, a a company's
00:36:13
Saikat Pyne: products and services that the definition of a product and
00:36:17
Saikat Pyne: a service is also changing in this post covid world.
00:36:20
Saikat Pyne: So how do you think it will impact the future
00:36:22
Saikat Pyne: of how startups are branded?
00:36:24
Chris Lu: Very, very good question. I I I think looking at
00:36:28
Chris Lu: India or South East Asia or East Asia, like like
00:36:33
Chris Lu: basically anywhere in this part of the world. Um, I
00:36:36
Chris Lu: would say that there will be even more startups being
00:36:39
Chris Lu: founded in the future. Um, and then they would then
00:36:44
Chris Lu: compete with established businesses and startups or today's scale ups
00:36:48
Chris Lu: and startups. Um, which means that
00:36:52
Chris Lu: any brand today and any brand in the future would
00:36:55
Chris Lu: have to compete more intensely with each other.
00:36:59
Chris Lu: Um, so also, there is another thing that will happen
00:37:02
Chris Lu: is there will be more expertise in growing startups, um,
00:37:07
Chris Lu: like in in helping a startup grow, which is then
00:37:10
Chris Lu: ultimately come back into the ecosystem to create more longer
00:37:14
Chris Lu: serving businesses. Um, so ultimately, any future startup will have
00:37:20
Chris Lu: to distinguish themselves from everyone else, including those already existing
00:37:25
Chris Lu: in the space, including the major players today.
00:37:29
Chris Lu: Um so OK, for example, um, one very, very common
00:37:35
Chris Lu: way startups describe themselves is oh, I'm Netflix of food,
00:37:39
Chris Lu: for example, or uber of education. Um, so, I mean,
00:37:43
Chris Lu: that can only get you
00:37:46
Chris Lu: this far. Um, so, yeah, I mean, ultimately, they will
00:37:50
Chris Lu: then have to develop their own unique identity. Um, if
00:37:53
Chris Lu: they're looking to build a brand, that is that will
00:37:56
Chris Lu: basically last for more than a decade.
00:37:59
Chris Lu: Um, for those that are looking for more for getting
00:38:05
Chris Lu: acquired by a different company, Um, I mean, even then,
00:38:08
Chris Lu: it it helps a lot to focus on building that
00:38:12
Chris Lu: whole brand from the start and distinguishing yourself from all
00:38:15
Chris Lu: the other companies that that are also looking to get
00:38:18
Chris Lu: acquired by, for example, by a major company. Um, so essentially,
00:38:25
Chris Lu: it is very, very, very important for a startup founder
00:38:29
Chris Lu: from day one to think of how they want their
00:38:33
Chris Lu: their company's branding to be like now,
00:38:37
Chris Lu: one year later, five years later, and 10 years later, um,
00:38:41
Chris Lu: so then is that that will kind of set a
00:38:44
Chris Lu: road map, and also, um, a reminder for founders to
00:38:49
Chris Lu: do kind of like a brand health check. Um, at the,
00:38:52
Chris Lu: um yeah, one year mark, five year mark, 10 year mark.
00:38:56
Saikat Pyne: So in this very cluttered space, it's even more important
00:39:02
Saikat Pyne: for a brand to know what it is, what it
00:39:05
Saikat Pyne: stands for
00:39:06
Saikat Pyne: and staying authentic to that. Because there are, you know,
00:39:10
Saikat Pyne: brands queuing up across the block to be the next Netflix,
00:39:14
Saikat Pyne: or to be the Netflix of X or the Netflix
00:39:17
Saikat Pyne: of y. But there may not be too many brands
00:39:20
Saikat Pyne: wanting to become the first, you know, company A or
00:39:24
Saikat Pyne: the first company B right? So the your best bet
00:39:28
Saikat Pyne: as a startup founder is to to build a brand
00:39:31
Saikat Pyne: that is the best version of itself rather than
00:39:36
Saikat Pyne: the the the second, the first copy or the second
00:39:39
Saikat Pyne: copy of another company. Because now every niche is spilling over,
00:39:45
Saikat Pyne: which just means that there there are that many companies
00:39:49
Saikat Pyne: that are buying for that place, right? There might not
00:39:53
Saikat Pyne: be too many companies that are vying to be exactly
00:39:57
Saikat Pyne: who you are, because
00:40:00
Saikat Pyne: only you can do yourself best, right? Uh, but if
00:40:04
Saikat Pyne: you would want to be the the the Netflix of
00:40:07
Saikat Pyne: trucking or, you know, I I think I I heard
00:40:11
Saikat Pyne: it somewhere that start up calling themselves the Uber of trucking, right?
00:40:16
Saikat Pyne: The uber of package delivery. It's It's just it just there.
00:40:20
Saikat Pyne: There are companies that would, you know, eat you up
00:40:22
Saikat Pyne: because there are companies that can do that better than you. Uh,
00:40:27
Saikat Pyne: but if you are the first version of you, that's
00:40:30
Saikat Pyne: that's the goal, right?
00:40:31
Chris Lu: Yeah. Totally right.
00:40:33
Saikat Pyne: Lovely. Lovely. And with that, it's a wrap. Thank you
00:40:38
Saikat Pyne: for being on the podcast, Chris. I had a lovely,
00:40:42
Saikat Pyne: lovely time chatting with you.
00:40:44
Saikat Pyne: Uh, please tune in next week for the next episode
00:40:47
Saikat Pyne: of the U Incorporated podcast. See ya.
00:41:01
Saikat Pyne: Thank you for tuning into the you incorporated podcast with me.
00:41:06
Saikat Pyne: You can write to us at high at the rate
00:41:09
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00:41:13
Saikat Pyne: Or check out my blog blog dot sa p dot
00:41:17
Saikat Pyne: com for more interesting content on brand building, content, creation,
00:41:21
Saikat Pyne: productivity and influence.
00:41:24
Saikat Pyne: Catch you guys in the next episode.