On this episode of Thrifty Titans., we explore the current state of the job market and its impact on the future of work with Anshuman Das, co-founder and CEO - Careernet.
We discuss how startups and MNCs have been affected and the importance of building a meaningful business. We also dive into the rise of the hybrid workforce and how companies need to discover their own specific hybrid method. Our guest shares insights on the cyclical pattern of the job market, the impact of AI on job creation and elimination, and the changes in compensation and pay raises.
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Saikat Pyne: welcome to this very special edition of the U Incorporated podcast.
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Saikat Pyne: I say special because this is our 50th episode.
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Saikat Pyne: When I launched the show in May last year, I
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Saikat Pyne: had no clue that it would become such a phenomenon.
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Saikat Pyne: We are now home to one of the largest community
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Saikat Pyne: of founders self starters and creatives.
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Saikat Pyne: So thank you guys. Thank you for everything. We felt
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Saikat Pyne: it was only right to have on board a long
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Saikat Pyne: term
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Saikat Pyne: patron of the show. And that's Mr Amanda. He's the
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Saikat Pyne: founder and CEO of Career Net.
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Saikat Pyne: Aman was featured on the fifth episode of our show
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Saikat Pyne: back in June last year, and it was titled The
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Saikat Pyne: Great Resignation and the Future of Work.
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Saikat Pyne: And I have the pleasure of hosting him back at
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Saikat Pyne: the U Incorporated podcast,
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Saikat Pyne: discussing about the greater layoffs and, of course, the future
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Saikat Pyne: of work. Welcome back to the show, man. Pleasure
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Anshuman Das: talking to you. A
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Saikat Pyne: couple of 100 employees have been laid off by tech
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Saikat Pyne: companies and startups around the world.
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Saikat Pyne: What do these mean for talent and talent
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Anshuman Das: movie? Second, I think what is going through is not new, because,
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Anshuman Das: as I understand, my last 23 years of experience. This
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Anshuman Das: may be the fifth or the sixth meltdown, and I
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Anshuman Das: think last time when we were talking about we were
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Anshuman Das: talking about a great resignation story where it was really
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Anshuman Das: like that bit scaling happening up. So I think these
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Anshuman Das: are the cycles which keep going in. And I think
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Anshuman Das: when you are essentially on the downhill of any cycle,
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Anshuman Das: you actually start taking a much more serious look of
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Anshuman Das: the ecosystem because on the when you are really on
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Anshuman Das: the upside, really tend to ignore many things. And when
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Anshuman Das: the tides are high, uh, you really tend to enjoy
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Anshuman Das: the fruit. But when the tides are low, that's when
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Anshuman Das: you really have to exert a lot.
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Anshuman Das: So I would say that's a phase which is going
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Anshuman Das: through and which will mean that people will be definitely over.
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Anshuman Das: Ethical will be far more critical about what they have
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Anshuman Das: been doing, what the companies have been doing and whether
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Anshuman Das: this is the right way of building company. Whether this
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Anshuman Das: is the right way of building business.
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Anshuman Das: I think there's a lot of those harder questions which
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Anshuman Das: I believe the talent will talk to the industry and
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Anshuman Das: to themselves also. And I think that is a phase
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Anshuman Das: which we are going through right now and probably on
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Anshuman Das: one hand, anyone who is laid off is in distress
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Anshuman Das: is obviously looking out something very eagerly and desperately. But
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Anshuman Das: even the people who are not being impacted, they themselves
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Anshuman Das: are also realising that he is this the right way
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Anshuman Das: of building things. Is this the right shape to be in?
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Anshuman Das: So there is that definite? I would say overall instability
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Anshuman Das: which is coming in. And I do believe that well,
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Anshuman Das: will we get consumed by this instability? The answer is no.
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Anshuman Das: I definitely believe that there will be a shakeout happening.
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Anshuman Das: There will be a meld down happening and every I
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Anshuman Das: would say every meld down has ended up producing companies
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Anshuman Das: which have taken up the orbit to the next level.
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Anshuman Das: So we firmly believe that this meltdown is happening for
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Anshuman Das: a good and there will be definitely some of the
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Anshuman Das: collateral damages will happen. Uh, some of the good careers
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Anshuman Das: will also I would say crushed also.
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Anshuman Das: But in general, I do believe that I'm quite optimistic.
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Anshuman Das: I do believe that if you ask me sometime in
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Anshuman Das: October 22. I did believe that this is a nine
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Anshuman Das: month to a 12 month phenomenon, but sitting today in
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Anshuman Das: March 22 March 23 today is 31st March. If I
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Anshuman Das: have to say this is actually another nine months, more phenomena,
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Anshuman Das: so definitely it will take. It's good, Good, I would
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Anshuman Das: say 15, 18 months, which we are going through right now,
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Anshuman Das: which was definitely not anticipated.
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Anshuman Das: And I just hope that things do not go more
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Anshuman Das: south and we do not have more geopolitical issues aggravating
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Anshuman Das: the situation because you really look at the core of it.
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Anshuman Das: There have been reasonable amount of geopolitical issues which have
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Anshuman Das: been also responsible for creating this situation, and I just
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Anshuman Das: hope that we have any. Not any new geopolitical situation
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Anshuman Das: comes out then. This is at least another 6 to
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Anshuman Das: 9 months phenomena which will work as
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Saikat Pyne: we stand today.
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Saikat Pyne: Looking at this wave of laid of talent,
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Saikat Pyne: what do you think this will trigger?
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Anshuman Das: Sure. So I think my theory is there, at least
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Anshuman Das: for five things that will happen first was this whole
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Anshuman Das: upstream of mad rush of jobs was a very tech
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Anshuman Das: phenomenon to a degree and very start break. And that phase,
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Anshuman Das: When it was happening, there were a lot of traditional
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Anshuman Das: companies who were actually feeling let out. I think they
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Anshuman Das: are not able to hire very well. And to somebody
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Anshuman Das: who has built a very successful conglomerate,
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Anshuman Das: is wanting to hire a tech talent, and the tech
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Anshuman Das: talent will essentially go in there like a starter, but
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Anshuman Das: not a conglomerate.
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Anshuman Das: I think there is a reasonable movement and catch up with.
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Anshuman Das: Some of these conglomerates are. And essentially what I'm realising
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Anshuman Das: is the whole, um, distillation of economy is becoming mainstream.
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Anshuman Das: So as a result of that, you will start seeing
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Anshuman Das: one of the things is probably a lot of the
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Anshuman Das: conglomerates will end up hiring a reasonably good amount of
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Anshuman Das: talent that they will not hire able to hire in
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Anshuman Das: 21 20.
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Anshuman Das: That is one shift
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Anshuman Das: second, if you actually go and talk to a lot
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Anshuman Das: of investors who do the early seed stage and the CD,
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Anshuman Das: a kind of I think the deal flow is very
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Anshuman Das: good and you can actually really good set of companies
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Anshuman Das: coming out there. In fact, I was, uh, with a
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Anshuman Das: lot of the investors last evening and they said that Look,
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Anshuman Das: we do not see any problem at the seed stage
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Anshuman Das: early pre Series A and series. A good deal flow there.
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Anshuman Das: Which means that there's a good proven talent which is
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Anshuman Das: finding that this is the right time to start. They
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Anshuman Das: are able to change.
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Anshuman Das: Think about the next set of problem and I think
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Anshuman Das: entrepreneurship is definitely going to take a reasonable. I would
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Anshuman Das: say um will go up clearly from here because there
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Anshuman Das: have been reasonably good exits. Also, if you notice like
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Anshuman Das: the flip card exit which happened and I know there
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Anshuman Das: are a reasonably good number of senior guys who are
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Anshuman Das: drinking about what the next opportunity is and they're not
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Anshuman Das: in a hurry, they will actually go and take that
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Anshuman Das: third. I think overall in general, if you ask me,
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Anshuman Das: the salary market really went up. I I was obnoxious,
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Anshuman Das: rooted up. It was almost like if you look at
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Anshuman Das: a CD A or a Series B top executive in 2019,
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Anshuman Das: 20 would be what about $100? That was typical average
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Anshuman Das: salary in India would be, which has almost gone to
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Anshuman Das: as high as about 250 to 300 K now for
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Anshuman Das: the same CD, a early Series B company.
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Anshuman Das: So there is nothing that has happened in the three
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Anshuman Das: years that why should the salary become X so while
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Anshuman Das: salary correction may not happen.
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Anshuman Das: But there is going to be a reasonable churn which
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Anshuman Das: is going to go through. The hikes will not happen.
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Anshuman Das: Bonuses values will actually be, are moderate and even the
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Anshuman Das: value will go down so there. So it will be
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Anshuman Das: a lot of tempering of expectation, which is going to
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Anshuman Das: be there people. When they were moving jobs, they were
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Anshuman Das: looking at 50% to 80% pay raises. I think that's
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Anshuman Das: the fourth phenomena which is going to be essentially it
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Anshuman Das: is going to be back to the same 10 to 20%
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Anshuman Das: pay kind of a phenomena.
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Anshuman Das: And maybe in this scenario you may actually see the
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Anshuman Das: fifth thing. Which is to say that people who are
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Anshuman Das: impacted may have to take reasonable salary cuts also. So
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Anshuman Das: while we have spoken a lot earlier about will salary
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Anshuman Das: cuts happen or not? But I think this time the
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Anshuman Das: level of bloating which happened in the salary was unprecedented.
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Anshuman Das: So I would say that it is actually going to
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Anshuman Das: be right if people take a pay cut and go there.
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Anshuman Das: So I think these are the 45 things which will
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Anshuman Das: trigger because of this whole meltdown.
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Saikat Pyne: Would it be fair to say at that time and
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Saikat Pyne: CS are becoming cool again?
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Anshuman Das: I would always say that Look, the larger companies, whether
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Anshuman Das: it is a conglomerate or Indian conglomerate or AM, N c,
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Anshuman Das: all of them have been there for quite a long time,
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Anshuman Das: and they have seen so many cycles they normally remain
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Anshuman Das: the same.
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Anshuman Das: Uh, I think it is the talent which essentially tends
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Anshuman Das: to change their view and change their goal post. I
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Anshuman Das: don't think mature companies tend to change the goal post
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Anshuman Das: for them.
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Anshuman Das: They typically know that when is it is going to fall.
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Anshuman Das: So M n CS are definitely sought after, definitely especially
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Anshuman Das: in the Indian context. With the dollar escalation happening, the
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Anshuman Das: M n CS are finding it far more viable to
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Anshuman Das: build teams in India.
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Anshuman Das: And obviously this meltdown is helping them to attract talent
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Anshuman Das: in an easy manner. So definitely you are going to
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Anshuman Das: see that 23. 24 is going to be the M
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Anshuman Das: N C year. If we can say 21 was the
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Anshuman Das: startup year of India, so 23 will be the Indian
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Anshuman Das: conglomerate and maybe the M N. C. I see
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Saikat Pyne: you also touched upon a very interesting
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Saikat Pyne: interesting point on salaries and how startups are interesting point
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Saikat Pyne: on salaries and how startup salaries were bloated. What do
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Saikat Pyne: you see? Will happen in terms of the top in
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Saikat Pyne: Indian startups.
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Anshuman Das: So I think it is definitely one is the acceleration
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Anshuman Das: in the pay increase is going to stop. That is
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Anshuman Das: going to flatten. And in fact, frankly, what happens is
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Anshuman Das: it is very difficult to go inside a company and
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Anshuman Das: ask people to take a pay cut.
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Anshuman Das: You can always reduce the salary when somebody is changing
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Anshuman Das: a job and you can say, Look, I will offer this,
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Anshuman Das: but you will be getting X y Z in your
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Anshuman Das: previous company. I'm not going to offer that, so so
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Anshuman Das: you don't want to. So you What companies want to
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Anshuman Das: do is to start the journey at a right note.
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Anshuman Das: Now the journey is going on. The salary was paid
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Anshuman Das: and because the market is bad. You go and say that, OK,
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Anshuman Das: I'm announcing a 50% pay cut.
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Anshuman Das: People will expect that it is a pay for a
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Anshuman Das: certain duration. It is not a pay as a temporary.
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Anshuman Das: This is not the new normal. This is my normal
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Anshuman Das: was that it is a pay cut. I'm ready to
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Anshuman Das: take a pay cut for, Let's say, the next six months.
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Anshuman Das: But when are you going to restore it back? I
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Anshuman Das: think that's a concept that people have
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Anshuman Das: tend to do. So it's definitely a very messy situation
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Anshuman Das: because what will happen you have, let's say a V
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Anshuman Das: p of engineering inside the company to whom you are
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Anshuman Das: paying about 1.5. And you know that the outside I
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Anshuman Das: can easily get someone new at one
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Anshuman Das: Now there is that whole dilemma that it is a 33% Yeah, extra.
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Anshuman Das: I'm paying
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Anshuman Das: now. Can you go and ask the person in your
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Anshuman Das: company and say that? Take a pay cut to one year?
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Anshuman Das: It is not going to happen
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Anshuman Das: now. Does that mean that Should you let your weeping
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Anshuman Das: ring go
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Anshuman Das: and say I will replace it because there is no
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Anshuman Das: real recipe to say that if I let the guy
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Anshuman Das: go and a new person comes in, it will just
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Anshuman Das: fit in. As it is, there will be a lot
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Anshuman Das: of bad blood which will happen.
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Anshuman Das: So it is not just that the mathematics just adds
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Anshuman Das: up like that.
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Anshuman Das: But the chemistry factor is big, and that's where you
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Anshuman Das: will see reasonable level of messy situation arising in various
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Anshuman Das: computer become very heterogeneous. Certain companies, people who believe that
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Anshuman Das: this talent is of medium to average quality. Let me
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Anshuman Das: go and do a pay cut or let me go
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Anshuman Das: and do a hard appraisal and ensure that this I
00:11:16
Anshuman Das: flush out 20% talent from that. And I hired a
00:11:19
Anshuman Das: evening 20% talent back within the company at the right
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Anshuman Das: cost track, I think, or probably I pay that cost
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Anshuman Das: and really push the bar up
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Anshuman Das: so some company will use that method. Some company will
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Anshuman Das: say I'm doing a pay cut. Some companies say OK,
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Anshuman Das: I'm fine and I will build in this call, but
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Anshuman Das: the future cost I'm going to build at the right
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Anshuman Das: place so there will be heterogeneity which will come in
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Anshuman Das: and It's not about that, because when the market was
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Anshuman Das: going up, everybody was compelled to give height and they
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Anshuman Das: it was only a matter of time. Who was the first? OK,
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Anshuman Das: but in this case, it is not going to be
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Anshuman Das: so easy. M. N
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Saikat Pyne: CS have not laid off people, but tech companies that
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Saikat Pyne: are
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Saikat Pyne: huge conglomerates have also laid off. So how has the
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Saikat Pyne: reputation of M N CS as the so rates have
00:12:03
Saikat Pyne: also laid off? So how has the reputation of M
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Saikat Pyne: N CS as the stable employer been impacted? And how
00:12:12
Saikat Pyne: have employers changed? See,
00:12:13
Anshuman Das: reputation in general has not been impacted. See, there have
00:12:17
Anshuman Das: been obviously some of the larger conglomerates, and there have
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Anshuman Das: been media about announcing layoffs. And even when they have
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Anshuman Das: announced layoffs,
00:12:25
Anshuman Das: M. N. C. To that degree have been reasonably far
00:12:29
Anshuman Das: more employers to that degree in terms of severance package
00:12:32
Anshuman Das: and everything. The transparency to it while they are a
00:12:36
Anshuman Das: little bit tight lipped about to the external world about
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Anshuman Das: what they're doing, but within the internal employee ecosystem, they
00:12:42
Anshuman Das: are reasonably be to that.
00:12:44
Anshuman Das: So I would say M n c still continue to
00:12:47
Anshuman Das: be a safer bet. And I think start ups still
00:12:50
Anshuman Das: continue to be the exciting bet, I would say and
00:12:53
Anshuman Das: probably start ups. At some point. I became the more
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Anshuman Das: rewarding bet also because of the stock inflation and that,
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Anshuman Das: and that is why the favour got in favour towards
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Anshuman Das: the start up.
00:13:03
Anshuman Das: But I think and this was all built on upon
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Anshuman Das: the fact that the money supply is unlimited. So obviously
00:13:08
Anshuman Das: with the money supply trying, I think it is very
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Anshuman Das: clear that you have to build meaningful company and any
00:13:14
Anshuman Das: M N C to that degree has been in the
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Anshuman Das: existence for a reasonable time. They have built a meaningful business,
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Anshuman Das: so I would say c will always be, I would say,
00:13:23
Anshuman Das: the darling of any prospective employee to that. It's only
00:13:27
Anshuman Das: that some of these startups will keep coming and going.
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Anshuman Das: And I think every startup which is
00:13:32
Anshuman Das: building in to become at some point in time, that
00:13:36
Anshuman Das: is where the refuse is. Technically, if you ask so
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Anshuman Das: to to that degree, I would say, as in Facebook
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Anshuman Das: five years back was running it like a startup, and
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Anshuman Das: today now they are like so, which is battered very badly,
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Anshuman Das: they know how to manage those cycles. But and that's
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Anshuman Das: why I say that the M N C charm will
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Anshuman Das: continue to remain in India
00:13:58
Anshuman Das: irrespective of startups there or not there. And even in
00:14:03
Anshuman Das: 21 when startups are really at the peak, I would
00:14:07
Anshuman Das: say M N C Charm was still there. It was
00:14:09
Anshuman Das: not that was not there. I think one of the
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Anshuman Das: good thing with cycle which has happened is
00:14:15
Anshuman Das: the whole at least the largest society has been able
00:14:18
Anshuman Das: to understand what startup is about. Take care. I think
00:14:22
Anshuman Das: somewhere people felt that the startup is a lot about
00:14:25
Anshuman Das: crazy money and fancy stocks and those kind of thing.
00:14:29
Anshuman Das: I think what is going through is the hard reality.
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Anshuman Das: So two things have happened. One is startups have become popular,
00:14:36
Anshuman Das: so no more. You have to explain your father in
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Anshuman Das: law that I have to be in a jazzy building.
00:14:41
Anshuman Das: Do that at least when you say I'm working for
00:14:43
Anshuman Das: a startup,
00:14:44
Anshuman Das: the amount of I think the news which got created,
00:14:46
Anshuman Das: I think in general there is a larger acceptance of
00:14:49
Anshuman Das: people who which is a good site.
00:14:52
Anshuman Das: The other good side is key I think somewhere the
00:14:54
Anshuman Das: narrative about seeing that a startup is a lot about
00:14:57
Anshuman Das: that jazzy stocks and high salary with no risk. I
00:15:00
Anshuman Das: think what is going through is a harsh reality of startups.
00:15:04
Anshuman Das: So I think both of these things will give a
00:15:06
Anshuman Das: lot of strength to the startup ecosystem. And it will
00:15:10
Anshuman Das: essentially give that level of I would say
00:15:14
Anshuman Das: in their foundation that they can, actually, tomorrow, when they
00:15:16
Anshuman Das: become really an M N C, they will really be
00:15:18
Anshuman Das: able to go through that. I think this is a
00:15:20
Anshuman Das: test of fire. This is essentially baptism by fire, which
00:15:23
Anshuman Das: a lot of these startups are going,
00:15:25
Anshuman Das: and that is what will actually make them to M. N.
00:15:28
Anshuman Das: C when they really come out. And I'm actually happy
00:15:31
Anshuman Das: that this is happening, because this is how the startups
00:15:34
Anshuman Das: will evolve out to the next level.
00:15:35
Saikat Pyne: All of the tech startups in India have not turned
00:15:38
Saikat Pyne: a profit over the past five years. Do you see
00:15:41
Saikat Pyne: an inevitable talent crunch in some of these startups? As
00:15:45
Saikat Pyne: candidates start to realise they are on shaky ground and
00:15:48
Saikat Pyne: the candidates look for a refuge in MC?
00:15:50
Anshuman Das: Definitely the reputation of startups will definitely be important, because today,
00:15:55
Anshuman Das: if a startup which has hired and laid off so
00:15:59
Anshuman Das: many people in a reckless manner and tomorrow when they
00:16:02
Anshuman Das: again are let's say, hiring and they want to go
00:16:05
Anshuman Das: out in the market and hire people, they will have
00:16:08
Anshuman Das: a tough time. But in no doubt about
00:16:11
Anshuman Das: so your reputation, your background will definitely come and bite
00:16:14
Anshuman Das: you if you have not done it the right.
00:16:16
Anshuman Das: And that's why even with startups who are essentially right
00:16:20
Anshuman Das: now going through this whole churn and meltdown and the layoffs,
00:16:24
Anshuman Das: I think the advice to them is to do it
00:16:26
Anshuman Das: the right way.
00:16:28
Anshuman Das: At least have the right communication at least have the
00:16:30
Anshuman Das: right messaging. Maybe you may not be able to pay
00:16:33
Anshuman Das: those very hefty CS packets like an M N C,
00:16:36
Anshuman Das: but you can have that empathy. Overall, you can actually
00:16:38
Anshuman Das: do it the right way of doing,
00:16:41
Anshuman Das: and that I think, will go in the long run
00:16:43
Anshuman Das: to ensure that there is no big number three, which
00:16:47
Anshuman Das: is built around startups to see.
00:16:49
Anshuman Das: So I think what you definitely are going through a
00:16:51
Anshuman Das: tough time. But in that what you should ensure is
00:16:54
Anshuman Das: you don't on the you don't lose your goodwill in this.
00:16:58
Anshuman Das: I think that would be The bigger loss in startups
00:17:00
Anshuman Das: will go through And there are startups I know who
00:17:03
Anshuman Das: handle with a lot of people. And then there are
00:17:05
Anshuman Das: startups who are reckless in doing that. The startups who
00:17:08
Anshuman Das: are reckless will obviously will have a issue when they
00:17:12
Anshuman Das: really want to tomorrow.
00:17:14
Saikat Pyne: Is there a right way according to you, to live
00:17:17
Anshuman Das: right way? I always say there is a right way
00:17:19
Anshuman Das: of running company. And then there is always you have
00:17:22
Anshuman Das: to have a right way of hiring, and then you
00:17:23
Anshuman Das: have to have a right way of letting people go.
00:17:26
Anshuman Das: So because it's not about And if you want to
00:17:29
Anshuman Das: really aspire and build a successful company, I think fighting
00:17:33
Anshuman Das: is a part of that process. So you should know
00:17:36
Anshuman Das: how to give a bad news. You should know how
00:17:38
Anshuman Das: to build that empathy in that time.
00:17:41
Anshuman Das: You need to know that. What are the things you
00:17:43
Anshuman Das: are doing? It And I think have you done reasonable
00:17:47
Anshuman Das: level of what we call as the first warning? Second warning.
00:17:52
Anshuman Das: Third warning. Have you done enough to ensure that people
00:17:55
Anshuman Das: are reasonably convinced that this is the right decision.
00:17:58
Anshuman Das: I think it is all boils down, cycled to the
00:18:01
Anshuman Das: right way of work.
00:18:03
Anshuman Das: And if you have done the right way of working in,
00:18:05
Anshuman Das: then many a time when you ask people to vote,
00:18:08
Anshuman Das: they understand that it is
00:18:10
Anshuman Das: time to go. And I think it is better that
00:18:13
Anshuman Das: the ship
00:18:14
Anshuman Das: you lose a person, but not the ship overall. So
00:18:17
Anshuman Das: I think, and there will be always. I think you
00:18:19
Anshuman Das: have to also make the person believe that this is
00:18:21
Anshuman Das: not the end of it. Probably the person may be
00:18:24
Anshuman Das: far more better and productive in some other setup, and
00:18:26
Anshuman Das: some other setup may be able to utilise their skills
00:18:29
Anshuman Das: in a much more manner. And the clouds which are
00:18:33
Anshuman Das: there today are not a permanent one. They will go.
00:18:35
Anshuman Das: Maybe it may be a little tough time for the
00:18:38
Anshuman Das: next three months or six months. Maybe the person may
00:18:41
Anshuman Das: not take a one more vacation to that degree, or
00:18:44
Anshuman Das: the person who was planning to buy a four wheeler
00:18:46
Anshuman Das: may just postpone some decision for some time, but it
00:18:49
Anshuman Das: is not. I think the end of the career because
00:18:52
Anshuman Das: I think startups in general tend to hire reasonably talented people.
00:18:55
Anshuman Das: They have got great talent, and I think this is
00:18:57
Anshuman Das: what
00:18:58
Anshuman Das: the startup should make. The people believe and that look,
00:19:01
Anshuman Das: it is right for the company. They are talented. It
00:19:03
Anshuman Das: is a situation which is going, and if you build
00:19:05
Anshuman Das: that sufficient empathy and that is the right way to go.
00:19:08
Anshuman Das: And
00:19:08
Saikat Pyne: how is the definition of a dream company changed? Has
00:19:11
Saikat Pyne: the layoffs impact the notion of what your dream company is?
00:19:15
Saikat Pyne: So
00:19:16
Anshuman Das: certainly, I think, even with a company like McKenzie asking
00:19:19
Anshuman Das: people to go and Mackenzie, if you actually go and see,
00:19:22
Anshuman Das: is considered to be there is there is a slot
00:19:24
Anshuman Das: in most times called Dream Dream Company.
00:19:27
Anshuman Das: They are placed there, which means that technically, they are
00:19:30
Anshuman Das: considered to be a dream company for many. OK, and
00:19:34
Anshuman Das: they have gone through a massive churn right now. So
00:19:36
Anshuman Das: definitely the whole notion about Dream company and what is
00:19:40
Anshuman Das: a dream company. A dream company is one where the
00:19:43
Anshuman Das: job exciting. The company is stable.
00:19:46
Anshuman Das: It's provide a great career growth and probably you end
00:19:49
Anshuman Das: up making reasonable amount of compensation also. So it's a
00:19:53
Anshuman Das: combination of all four, where you have got a lot
00:19:55
Anshuman Das: of good culture, mutual respect, a lot of those things
00:19:58
Anshuman Das: that
00:19:58
Anshuman Das: so I think the soft spec aspects like your growth
00:20:02
Anshuman Das: or your culture. Those are the things do not change
00:20:05
Anshuman Das: in a company too much. They they do not change
00:20:07
Anshuman Das: with those business cycles. What does changes? Sometimes your pays
00:20:12
Anshuman Das: sometimes typically the faster growth in your composition. I think
00:20:16
Anshuman Das: those are things do change, right?
00:20:18
Anshuman Das: So I don't think Dream Company, as a concept per se,
00:20:23
Anshuman Das: will dramatically shift to that because I think, uh, while
00:20:27
Anshuman Das: every company have their own boats, every company but the
00:20:30
Anshuman Das: storm is for everyone. Now the question is this key.
00:20:34
Anshuman Das: How does one straddle that boat? McKenzie has its own board.
00:20:38
Anshuman Das: Google has its own board. Facebook has its own boat now,
00:20:42
Anshuman Das: and all our dream company
00:20:44
Anshuman Das: and the storm is there for everyone.
00:20:47
Anshuman Das: Let's look at how every one of them is managing it.
00:20:50
Anshuman Das: So it's not that one downturn, and the apple cart
00:20:55
Anshuman Das: will just change our top 10 dream employers today and
00:20:57
Anshuman Das: new 10 will be replaced tomorrow. I don't think that
00:20:59
Anshuman Das: is going to happen.
00:21:01
Anshuman Das: Definitely. What will happen is people will become far more,
00:21:05
Anshuman Das: I would say aware about asking a few more questions
00:21:08
Anshuman Das: to these dream companies, and a little bit of change
00:21:11
Anshuman Das: will definitely happen. You will see some companies falling off
00:21:14
Anshuman Das: and some companies new companies getting in kind of a thing.
00:21:17
Anshuman Das: But it's not a dramatic overmatch. There
00:21:20
Saikat Pyne: is this need for companies to move into a hybrid setup.
00:21:25
Saikat Pyne: How do you see this tug of war between the
00:21:29
Saikat Pyne: security of working for some of these companies versus the
00:21:33
Saikat Pyne: flexibility that employees have been demanding? How do you see
00:21:37
Saikat Pyne: this play out into the future? I think
00:21:40
Anshuman Das: the
00:21:42
Anshuman Das: hybrid workforce was bound to happen, and in fact, the
00:21:45
Anshuman Das: last time I said that the full remote and full
00:21:47
Anshuman Das: in office both are not the solutions. The answer lies
00:21:50
Anshuman Das: somewhere in between. And I think when the answer lies
00:21:54
Anshuman Das: somewhere in between, it is for a specific company to
00:21:57
Anshuman Das: discover what the method is going.
00:22:01
Anshuman Das: So I think so far the company is able to
00:22:04
Anshuman Das: showcase and highlight that why this hybrid working and why
00:22:08
Anshuman Das: it works well for them. I think there will be
00:22:11
Anshuman Das: a broader acceptance to that
00:22:13
Anshuman Das: and in any company, when you pick up, there's always
00:22:16
Anshuman Das: a pool in between and there is always a pool
00:22:18
Anshuman Das: on the right side and a pool on the left side.
00:22:20
Anshuman Das: The pool on the right side is very pro. Everything.
00:22:22
Anshuman Das: I'm OK with the pool in the between is saying OK, fine.
00:22:25
Anshuman Das: I have a little bit question. If I have the
00:22:27
Anshuman Das: right reasons to go and do it, I will agree
00:22:30
Anshuman Das: to it. And then there is always a pool on
00:22:32
Anshuman Das: the left side, which is Oh, come what? Maybe I
00:22:34
Anshuman Das: have to oppose. I'm just only worried about.
00:22:37
Anshuman Das: And so far the company has ensured that pool on
00:22:41
Anshuman Das: the left side is only 5 10% of the
00:22:44
Anshuman Das: you have to. I think at some point in time
00:22:45
Anshuman Das: go through that cyclic churning process. And maybe this is
00:22:50
Anshuman Das: the time when companies will actually resort to a little
00:22:53
Anshuman Das: bit of those harder measures. Essentially, and they say that Look,
00:22:57
Anshuman Das: we really can't built in, because today, when the company
00:23:00
Anshuman Das: is going through a bad term and you are not
00:23:03
Anshuman Das: aligning to the larger philosophy and the goal of the company,
00:23:06
Anshuman Das: then I think probably you may have to look for
00:23:08
Anshuman Das: some other company
00:23:09
Anshuman Das: because I think in general hybrid working is the ask
00:23:13
Anshuman Das: from most of the company.
00:23:15
Anshuman Das: So even if this person has a resistance, which new company,
00:23:19
Anshuman Das: which the person go and say that Look, I'm a
00:23:21
Anshuman Das: fully remote
00:23:22
Anshuman Das: because to my understanding, the most of the companies which
00:23:26
Anshuman Das: came to the press and said we are going to
00:23:29
Anshuman Das: be remote forever
00:23:31
Anshuman Das: I think
00:23:32
Anshuman Das: everyone has reversed it. Everyone has reversed it.
00:23:35
Anshuman Das: So I think that people have realised the benefit of
00:23:37
Anshuman Das: coming to office meeting teams and those things. So I
00:23:41
Anshuman Das: think to that degree this is the time when companies
00:23:45
Anshuman Das: are making that change more hard and insisting on making
00:23:49
Anshuman Das: that
00:23:50
Anshuman Das: and probably this will be done.
00:23:52
Saikat Pyne: So the future work is hybrid as long as it
00:23:55
Saikat Pyne: affiliated to a startup or an M N. C. And
00:23:58
Anshuman Das: the other thing, what is also happening is
00:24:00
Anshuman Das: there were a lot of things which
00:24:03
Anshuman Das: you used to do which have become remote, and I
00:24:06
Anshuman Das: can only talk about, let's say, from our hiring point
00:24:09
Anshuman Das: of view, because we have a hiring firm. We have
00:24:11
Anshuman Das: about 2000 recruiters which work in our career. Net company.
00:24:15
Anshuman Das: We hire anywhere about 8 10 candidates every month. And
00:24:19
Anshuman Das: what I'm realising that the hiring process, for example, is
00:24:22
Anshuman Das: not fully remote. Almost 90% companies typically are doing remote
00:24:26
Anshuman Das: hire a lot of the business meetings. Client reviews, which
00:24:30
Anshuman Das: were transactional in nature, kind of a thing
00:24:32
Anshuman Das: are happening remote and typically, let's say if you are
00:24:35
Anshuman Das: doing three days in a week as a overall thing.
00:24:39
Anshuman Das: But if you have to go and compare from your
00:24:41
Anshuman Das: original quantum, you will realise that it is not actually
00:24:45
Anshuman Das: that it is 40% at home and 60% remote it is.
00:24:49
Anshuman Das: Actually the other way is 60% remote and 40% but
00:24:52
Anshuman Das: a lot of other activity which can become totally remote overall.
00:24:55
Anshuman Das: So to a larger degree, I would say we have
00:24:59
Anshuman Das: to look at
00:25:00
Anshuman Das: how much of things have become virtual and how much
00:25:03
Anshuman Das: of things have become physical. I would suppose this covid
00:25:06
Anshuman Das: there is a reasonable amount of virtual still happen, and
00:25:09
Anshuman Das: those are actually, by the way, the new normal. It
00:25:10
Anshuman Das: is not that it is going to change now because
00:25:13
Anshuman Das: I think we are like the third year of Covid
00:25:16
Anshuman Das: where we have seen four wave. Right now we're talking
00:25:19
Anshuman Das: about the fifth wave or whatever, but I think people
00:25:21
Anshuman Das: have got used to it. Now.
00:25:23
Anshuman Das: Today, you see, the fifth wave has come up. There
00:25:24
Anshuman Das: has been no mention about keep Hybrid working this working
00:25:29
Anshuman Das: even in the fourth wave. So people have said, OK, fine.
00:25:30
Anshuman Das: It's a part of the puzzle.
00:25:32
Anshuman Das: I think people have at least said that this is
00:25:35
Anshuman Das: the way of life.
00:25:35
Saikat Pyne: The other major trend that a lot of people are
00:25:39
Saikat Pyne: speaking about is the gig economy and the free gig worker.
00:25:43
Saikat Pyne: Do you see more startups hiring gig workers? Or do
00:25:47
Saikat Pyne: you think
00:25:48
Saikat Pyne: startup founders are still more attuned to having a full
00:25:51
Saikat Pyne: time employee?
00:25:52
Anshuman Das: So look, gig economy definitely exist at the in a
00:25:56
Anshuman Das: platform company. At the whole blue collar level, of course,
00:26:00
Anshuman Das: is the uber and the drivers, and the I think that,
00:26:04
Anshuman Das: I think, is definitely the way which has attained a
00:26:08
Anshuman Das: agreement that
00:26:10
Anshuman Das: the other we have seen is at the top end
00:26:12
Anshuman Das: where you are more working like an advisor or a
00:26:15
Anshuman Das: coach where you are a super specialised skill.
00:26:19
Anshuman Das: That is the second area where we have seen the economy,
00:26:22
Anshuman Das: so I would say a layer point of view, the
00:26:24
Anshuman Das: bottom layer and the top layer. Now there are certain
00:26:28
Anshuman Das: type of jobs which can be done in Greek economy
00:26:31
Anshuman Das: and which are happening. And there are certain type of
00:26:34
Anshuman Das: jobs which will not happen in the economy. OK, like
00:26:37
Anshuman Das: for example, let's say content writing or you talk about,
00:26:39
Anshuman Das: let's say, digital marketing or do you talk about Let's
00:26:42
Anshuman Das: say somebody is essentially.
00:26:47
Anshuman Das: Those are the places where you will find that the
00:26:49
Anshuman Das: nature of work is very periphery driven kind of work.
00:26:52
Anshuman Das: You come in, you do an assignment, you go out
00:26:54
Anshuman Das: and you move on.
00:26:56
Anshuman Das: For those places you will see the big economy will
00:26:58
Anshuman Das: rise further. It is only a matter of time that
00:27:00
Anshuman Das: you will. If a company has got, let's say, a
00:27:03
Anshuman Das: huge chunk of people which are on their payroll, you
00:27:06
Anshuman Das: will slowly see that they can make a big
00:27:08
Anshuman Das: but the typical, which is the old writing job, which
00:27:12
Anshuman Das: is the typical mid-level job kind of a thing. I
00:27:16
Anshuman Das: think that I do believe that the economy will always
00:27:20
Anshuman Das: be a free one. It is not going to become mainstream.
00:27:23
Anshuman Das: I that I think,
00:27:25
Anshuman Das: is still I would say an expectation that P. O. K.
00:27:28
Anshuman Das: Was the expectation. Rather, the gig economy will become mainstream.
00:27:32
Anshuman Das: But in my own experience, I think it was a
00:27:35
Anshuman Das: lot driven by the demand supply gap. I think the
00:27:38
Anshuman Das: demand was very high. Supply was poor. As a result,
00:27:42
Anshuman Das: people resorted to a scenario where they said, I will
00:27:45
Anshuman Das: essentially be looking in for big economy workers and the
00:27:48
Anshuman Das: people who were totally remote and they were able to
00:27:51
Anshuman Das: do moonlighting also. Or they were able to run five jobs,
00:27:54
Anshuman Das: essentially in parallel.
00:27:55
Anshuman Das: That was a certain spot happened in that. But once
00:27:58
Anshuman Das: I think the demand side uh, essentially became down. You
00:28:03
Anshuman Das: started realising that the mainstream jobs essentially away
00:28:07
Anshuman Das: and that was the first job which was getting impacted.
00:28:09
Anshuman Das: And now, when they got impacted, people realised that look,
00:28:12
Anshuman Das: I need to have a livelihood. I cannot no more
00:28:14
Anshuman Das: go and do that. And as a result of that,
00:28:16
Anshuman Das: the supply has also gone up
00:28:18
Anshuman Das: and people are now realising that maybe it was a
00:28:20
Anshuman Das: very risky one to go and do it, but anyway,
00:28:23
Anshuman Das: it is no more going to be a fully remote working.
00:28:25
Anshuman Das: It is going to be in hybrid work. So I
00:28:27
Anshuman Das: think because fully remote working and the economy are feeding
00:28:30
Anshuman Das: to each other very well.
00:28:31
Anshuman Das: With me
00:28:33
Anshuman Das: fully remote working going away and the hybrid working coming
00:28:36
Anshuman Das: in picture, I think there is a reasonable leverage breaks
00:28:39
Anshuman Das: applied on the key card.
00:28:41
Anshuman Das: And if you wouldn't
00:28:42
Anshuman Das: look at the data, how the economy was going in
00:28:45
Anshuman Das: 21 20 what what is going in 23 what will
00:28:49
Anshuman Das: grow in 24 I think is a reasonable slow down
00:28:52
Saikat Pyne: your computer. Say
00:28:58
Anshuman Das: definitely and people have realised that you look
00:29:01
Anshuman Das: and then I think the issue. A lot of issues
00:29:05
Anshuman Das: have not been resolved yet, as in long term community
00:29:09
Anshuman Das: of what What happens essentially assignment gets over so and
00:29:13
Anshuman Das: I think the job insecurity and everything is quite high there.
00:29:17
Anshuman Das: So I think people are realising that he look the
00:29:19
Anshuman Das: safer but is a better option. Look for a full
00:29:21
Anshuman Das: time job. I think those are the places where people
00:29:24
Anshuman Das: are essentially converging more, but
00:29:27
Anshuman Das: is the economy going to wipe out? The answer is no.
00:29:30
Anshuman Das: It is going to remain certain jobs categories, it will
00:29:33
Anshuman Das: grow at the bottom. Most level it is there. There
00:29:36
Anshuman Das: will be a certain segment of company which would prefer
00:29:38
Anshuman Das: the economy
00:29:39
Anshuman Das: at the top level economy. So there is a reasonable play,
00:29:42
Anshuman Das: I would say which is going to
00:29:44
Saikat Pyne: Goldman Sachs released a report that said that a I
00:29:48
Saikat Pyne: platforms like he could eat up 300 million jobs globally
00:29:52
Saikat Pyne: and close to 20% of work globally could potentially be computerised.
00:29:57
Saikat Pyne: How do you see a I impacting how we work
00:30:02
Saikat Pyne: in the next five years?
00:30:03
Anshuman Das: We did a summit in 2017, which was called the
00:30:08
Anshuman Das: Future of Jobs,
00:30:10
Anshuman Das: and we had some of the most immediate dignitaries from
00:30:13
Anshuman Das: in India from various pockets speaking about the event, and
00:30:17
Anshuman Das: we were forecasting about what 2020 is going to be,
00:30:20
Anshuman Das: and that time automation was a big thing.
00:30:23
Anshuman Das: We were talking about how people jobs will be wiped out.
00:30:26
Anshuman Das: How call centre jobs will go away, how content jobs
00:30:30
Anshuman Das: will go away.
00:30:32
Anshuman Das: The decision was there when computers came in. The decision
00:30:36
Anshuman Das: happened when Internet came in. The decision happened when smartphones
00:30:40
Anshuman Das: came in.
00:30:41
Anshuman Das: This decision happened when the automation story started and the
00:30:44
Anshuman Das: discussion is still around when the A I is happening
00:30:46
Anshuman Das: in my own belief, the way it is going to happen,
00:30:50
Anshuman Das: it is going to definitely make the life easier in
00:30:54
Anshuman Das: certain pockets. It is going to actually replace some of
00:30:56
Anshuman Das: the jobs.
00:30:58
Anshuman Das: But I think and people will find ways of reading
00:31:01
Anshuman Das: to the new reality.
00:31:02
Anshuman Das: So I think to a larger degree, whatever automation, whatever
00:31:07
Anshuman Das: technology which has come about to a level. I think
00:31:10
Anshuman Das: by and large the humans have adapted to it and
00:31:13
Anshuman Das: it has helped and made their life much more easier.
00:31:15
Anshuman Das: So what? I would say the comfort index has improved
00:31:18
Anshuman Das: from 19 sixties to 19 eighties to 2000 to 2020
00:31:22
Anshuman Das: so a I is going to actually make the life
00:31:25
Anshuman Das: more comfortable. It is going to give you far more
00:31:27
Anshuman Das: better decisions. It is going to give you far more
00:31:30
Anshuman Das: better insights.
00:31:32
Anshuman Das: But I think
00:31:33
Anshuman Das: we are underestimating what humans can do. So probably I
00:31:37
Anshuman Das: think it will lead to some amount of churn. There
00:31:40
Anshuman Das: will be a new reality which will be discovered, but
00:31:43
Anshuman Das: will it go in each 300 million jobs in the
00:31:46
Anshuman Das: next five years.
00:31:48
Saikat Pyne: What are the sort of jobs that you see going
00:31:50
Saikat Pyne: away because of E. I in the next five years
00:31:54
Anshuman Das: give you a good small use case? We have a
00:31:58
Anshuman Das: platform
00:31:59
Anshuman Das: where we actually help companies to take interviews for first
00:32:04
Anshuman Das: round and second round and screen them very well.
00:32:07
Anshuman Das: About a year and a half back, we brought a
00:32:10
Anshuman Das: asynchronous interview in that which means that there are 57
00:32:13
Anshuman Das: pre recorded questions which are there, and a bot will
00:32:17
Anshuman Das: ask those questions and we record it and we analyse it.
00:32:19
Anshuman Das: And then we started putting up an A I in
00:32:21
Anshuman Das: that and we started analysing people's behaviour and responsiveness and
00:32:26
Anshuman Das: those now we are building the next a I in
00:32:28
Anshuman Das: that time
00:32:31
Anshuman Das: what is happening and it is creating more jobs. We
00:32:33
Anshuman Das: are actually hiring more data sciences. We are hiding more
00:32:35
Anshuman Das: data analysts and we are on one hand, we are
00:32:37
Anshuman Das: finding more jobs which are probably we are not using
00:32:41
Anshuman Das: so much of those interviews that you used to have.
00:32:43
Anshuman Das: We had a pool of 5 10, which are there.
00:32:45
Anshuman Das: We are saying to you OK, no more that my
00:32:47
Anshuman Das: will do a one hour interview. I do only a
00:32:50
Anshuman Das: 40 minute interview, but the first half an hour interval
00:32:52
Anshuman Das: is done by my a I and A and I
00:32:54
Anshuman Das: have got those insights, and the person is now going
00:32:57
Anshuman Das: to be far more smarter
00:32:58
Anshuman Das: in asking and conducting their 40 minute interviews, and a
00:33:01
Anshuman Das: lot will come out. I have much more better insight,
00:33:03
Anshuman Das: which is there
00:33:05
Anshuman Das: at certain place. You can see some of the elementary
00:33:07
Anshuman Das: jobs which were the somebody was putting up and writing
00:33:11
Anshuman Das: notes and analysing it and doing that. Those jobs got over,
00:33:15
Anshuman Das: but new jobs got created over
00:33:17
Anshuman Das: Net net. My business is improving. My customer is improving.
00:33:21
Anshuman Das: My insights are improving. My quality of service is improving
00:33:24
Anshuman Das: and probably I'm able to charge more through my customer
00:33:28
Anshuman Das: because I'm bringing more value to that and I able
00:33:31
Anshuman Das: to pay more to my people. And maybe my head
00:33:33
Anshuman Das: account did not give a business increase overall,
00:33:36
Anshuman Das: and that is how I see any A. I will
00:33:38
Anshuman Das: go and impact overall so it may essentially eat up
00:33:41
Anshuman Das: some job and it may create some new jobs overall
00:33:44
Anshuman Das: and obviously things which are very repeated mundane in nature.
00:33:47
Anshuman Das: Those kind of jobs will typically get. But there will
00:33:49
Anshuman Das: be new jobs which will start. And on
00:33:51
Saikat Pyne: that insightful note, guys, etcetera.
00:33:54
Saikat Pyne: Thank you so much for being on the show again.
00:33:57
Saikat Pyne: A man. It was a pleasure hosting you
00:33:59
Anshuman Das: back. Same here. It's always been a pleasure talking to you.
00:34:02
Anshuman Das: And I look forward to many more conversations.
00:34:05
Saikat Pyne: Of course. See you next week for the next episode
00:34:08
Saikat Pyne: of the UN podcast. See ya.