Unmute Ep 5: The Subtle Art of Gaslighting

[00:00:00] In 1938, British playwright Patrick Hamilton wrote a play called Gaslight. It also got

[00:00:12] adapted into an award-winning film in 1944. And I'm sorry I'm about to give some spoilers

[00:00:17] about the film. It's a thriller about a married couple. The woman comes from wealth and

[00:00:23] the husband realizes that she is his jackpot. And so he manipulates her into believing

[00:00:29] that she's insane so that he can inherit her money.

[00:01:12] You're listening to the Quint's Unmute podcast series with me, Shorburi. And I'm not here

[00:01:17] to talk about this film but if you've heard that I'm gaslighting, this is where it comes

[00:01:21] from. The expression gaslighting has been used in psychoanalysis a lot of times but the funny

[00:01:26] thing is it is an exceptionally common form of manipulation and yet it goes unnoticed

[00:01:31] by those who face it. In this episode of Unmute, two women who were muted by gaslighting

[00:01:39] in their personal relationships speak out about the experiences. And I'll keep the women

[00:01:44] anonymous in this podcast as per the wishes. And before I proceed any further, I have a

[00:01:51] disclaimer for our listeners. Parts of this episode delves into experiences of harassment

[00:01:56] which may be triggering or upsetting to some. So listeners are advised to exercise discussion.

[00:02:05] I also got in touch with Ipsa James for this podcast. She's a queer therapist and

[00:02:10] I had a lot of questions on my mind about the subtle art of gaslighting. How is gaslighting

[00:02:16] different from a normal fight? How can you identify gaslighting? Is it intentional? Where

[00:02:20] all can it happen? These are some of the questions that I'll explore with Ipsa and

[00:02:25] in between my conversation with her, you'll hear voices of the two women that I spoke

[00:02:29] to where they describe the gaslighting that they had to face in their relationships.

[00:02:34] Hi, my name is Ipsa James and I am a queer therapist and I see young population

[00:02:40] majorly from 18 to 35. One thing I just need to understand in terms of what gaslighting

[00:02:47] is, what is the difference between a normal fight and a normal relationship? Okay. Or

[00:02:52] like not just a fight, let's just say like this arguments or differences. And what

[00:02:57] happens in a gaslighting situation? So basically gaslighting is all about making

[00:03:03] the other person question their reality, their narrative. In a sense, for example, I am

[00:03:09] giving you, I'm putting blade, I'm telling you blatant lies about what exactly is actually

[00:03:14] happening. Your reality by saying that the thing that you're accusing me of is actually

[00:03:18] who you are. Let's say if I am saying that you are spending money, they will be like,

[00:03:24] no, you are actually spending money. You were just putting this on me because you

[00:03:29] have this issue. I'm not the one who's doing it.

[00:03:41] So one thing that I really want to say at this point in time is that even if somebody

[00:03:45] says that they are feminists, doesn't make them feminists because for me the biggest

[00:03:51] jolt when I realized what was happening to me was gaslighting and was emotional

[00:03:55] abuse. It was coming from a man who had articulated himself to be a feminist. So

[00:04:01] actions speak louder than words. So that was something that became very apparent.

[00:04:05] So yeah, and then we were together and he used to keep telling me that he wanted

[00:04:11] to travel with me and he used to keep telling me essentially that he wanted a

[00:04:15] physical relationship more than anything else. And I was very clear that I did not

[00:04:19] want it at that point in time. So the idea of refusal from me for him became

[00:04:27] a point of, oh, you don't trust me. And oh, it's you. Oh, it's you are the

[00:04:31] problem, you know? And then as life sort of proceeded, he sort of kept

[00:04:37] speaking of how he envisaged a life for the two of us in, you know, a marriage where

[00:04:43] I would apparently be a mother to his two beautiful children. And that is

[00:04:46] certainly not how I see my life. And when I had this conversation, I was told

[00:04:51] that I was a selfish woman, that I was putting my thoughts and my expectations

[00:04:55] from life over what could potentially be us. It was interesting because this

[00:05:01] relationship already was very short lived. And what had started happening

[00:05:04] was that between this point and to a point where we ended things, and then he

[00:05:09] started really becoming toxic and blaming me for the fact that the

[00:05:13] relationship ended. And so, for example, when I had told him that I've already

[00:05:17] spoken to my parents about the fact that I'm with him, he had just turned

[00:05:23] around and become this extremely dramatic sort of a man who I mean, I

[00:05:31] still remember him turning around and saying something like, you know, it's

[00:05:36] going to be your fault forever that we aren't together because you chose to

[00:05:40] have a conversation with your parents before I allowed it. I had turned around

[00:05:46] and said that who are you to allow me to do to have a conversation with my

[00:05:50] parents? It's up to me, right? So when these kind of words started

[00:05:55] happening, I remember once we were sort of, you know, sitting next to each

[00:05:58] other and, you know, he was holding me and he sort of put his hand on my

[00:06:02] stomach and held my stomach and said that maybe this flap needs to go. Who are

[00:06:09] you to tell me what my body needs to be like? So all of these things, I

[00:06:14] started understanding much later. But I was, so the breakup followed soon

[00:06:19] after because clearly this was not going to work. But the toxicity that

[00:06:23] came after it was much harder to deal with. And at one point in time, I

[00:06:27] was exhibiting signs of depression. My appetite had completely gone down. I

[00:06:35] was losing weight immediately. I was losing confidence, which for me was

[00:06:40] my biggest concern as an independent feminist strong theater woman, ad

[00:06:49] woman. Confidence has been something that has been such an

[00:06:52] intrinsic part of who I am that I've never really, it's I've never

[00:06:57] thought of a life without it, you know. But within what I think it was

[00:07:02] in within two or three weeks, I realized that there's something off

[00:07:06] because I was rethinking everything that I would say or I would rethink

[00:07:11] everything I was trying to write. After about a couple of months into

[00:07:15] this whole sense of Oh, it's my fault, oh, it's my fault. One day

[00:07:19] something just snapped inside my head. And I took that step back and

[00:07:23] said, Oh, but why was it my fault? And then when I started

[00:07:25] breaking down each conversation in my own head, I realized that it

[00:07:30] never was really my fault. And supposedly I had to be in a

[00:07:44] relationship like that. Why would I believe this person? What

[00:07:48] would be my mental state when I do

[00:07:50] Okay, think about usually in relationships, you love the other

[00:07:53] person, right? And you obviously don't want to leave this

[00:07:56] person because this person's also in certain amount in certain

[00:07:59] ways really nice to you loves you as well shows it. But in

[00:08:03] some insidious ways, they might not be let's say, changing their

[00:08:07] ways in order to suit the relationship better. Let's say

[00:08:10] for example, if this person is saying that okay, I would

[00:08:14] like for example, financial issue that I'm talking about,

[00:08:17] they say, Okay, I'll change. For a few days, they change

[00:08:20] enough for the partner to realize that okay, there is

[00:08:24] a possibility that my partner will change, but they go back

[00:08:26] to their old ways again and again. So it's again, you

[00:08:29] were telling them they're giving them hope that you

[00:08:31] would change but at the end of the day, you're not actually

[00:08:33] wanting to change. That's one way of gaslighting. The other

[00:08:37] way would be that you would say that no, you are the one

[00:08:40] having issues. And they're like, Okay, maybe I am having

[00:08:43] issue, maybe I am projecting it because you might be

[00:08:46] somebody who like, you know, actually wants to believe the

[00:08:50] fact that nothing is actually wrong and easier to take

[00:08:52] the blame as well. Right? Think about it in the sense

[00:08:56] that if you are in such a relationship, this person must

[00:08:58] have made you question your reality over and over again.

[00:09:01] And also the fact that if you are a usual person, you would

[00:09:04] know that you have your own flaws. That means that if

[00:09:06] somebody is pointing it out, I might need to introspect. But

[00:09:10] then whatever you are saying to them goes out of the

[00:09:13] window because you are the one with the issues and

[00:09:15] they are not. And if these are the only we are the

[00:09:17] only two people who are the ones who are having this

[00:09:21] argument, then there's no other third party to tell

[00:09:24] you what is actually right or wrong. Right? So in the in

[00:09:27] that case, let's say this starts with small level of

[00:09:30] humiliation, then they go take it to another level. Well,

[00:09:33] let's say they are you saying that you are shit at your

[00:09:36] work, you shit at this relationship, I don't want

[00:09:38] to get married to you but they're also not leaving the

[00:09:40] relationship at the same time, which is another you can

[00:09:44] say a very mixed signal in that sense, right? If you're

[00:09:46] so unhappy, then you should read the

[00:09:47] relationship. Right? But you're also staying in

[00:09:50] the relationship, you may constantly humiliating

[00:09:51] this person and asking them to change more in order

[00:09:54] to kind of suit your needs. That is the goal of

[00:09:58] gaslighting? Technically, yes. It's about making

[00:10:01] somebody feel small in order to kind of have extreme

[00:10:05] control over their life. If for some people, the

[00:10:20] abuse doesn't go beyond gaslighting. For some

[00:10:24] people, it starts with gaslighting before it

[00:10:26] takes a more violent turn could be comments about

[00:10:29] the physique or the style or the personalities and

[00:10:32] make no mistakes. Abuse doesn't have to begin

[00:10:34] with screaming, shouting or bruises. It could just

[00:10:37] be about breaking your spirit first. I got married

[00:10:52] and very second day I realized that it's a

[00:10:57] dysfunctional family, a person whom I married

[00:10:59] is a dysfunctional person. So but I was not very

[00:11:03] sure because I love that man so much, especially

[00:11:09] I admired him because the whole family came to

[00:11:14] see my play in Shriram center. So there I saw

[00:11:18] the play and they all really liked me so much.

[00:11:23] After marriage, my husband started pressurizing

[00:11:27] me that I must stop working on stage and all

[00:11:30] these things. But later, I did ask him, why do

[00:11:36] you want to stop? He says, it's nothing.

[00:11:40] It's a creativity. So, in every way,

[00:11:43] I was trying to move my confidence.

[00:11:47] Then I realized that it's complex.

[00:11:53] That I go out and people started

[00:11:58] recognizing me, the person who comes on TV,

[00:12:01] anchoring program or something like that.

[00:12:05] It had a jealous feeling.

[00:12:10] But I never gave him the realization

[00:12:15] because I loved him so much.

[00:12:18] He was acceptable to me.

[00:12:22] But slowly, slowly, he was into addiction also,

[00:12:28] drinking, womanizing and so many other things

[00:12:34] were there. He used to take away my salary,

[00:12:37] my money part also. Then I used to ask him,

[00:12:41] give me some time for expenses. I have to manage

[00:12:44] these things because I was working. I definitely

[00:12:47] needed clothes and so many things when I move out.

[00:12:50] So all those issues were gradually increasing

[00:12:55] and day by day he was so manipulative,

[00:12:58] becoming more manipulative. The reason was

[00:13:01] this because I was very weak. Weak in the

[00:13:05] sense I was not able to convince him,

[00:13:09] I was allowing him to do whatever he wanted to do at that time.

[00:13:16] I allowed him to use abusive language for me.

[00:13:22] That time I never thought that I am allowing him.

[00:13:26] He wanted peace, a happy family, no divorce,

[00:13:32] no separation. And my kids, they must have a happy family.

[00:13:36] Father figure should be there for them.

[00:13:38] So that was the reason.

[00:13:40] I can say that in the whole story, I only allowed him.

[00:13:44] He used foul language for me, for my eyes,

[00:13:49] for my nose, for my body language,

[00:13:53] the way I dressed up for each and everything.

[00:13:56] Once I was doing something for my social work,

[00:14:01] I was coming from a meeting.

[00:14:03] So he didn't allow me to enter the home,

[00:14:07] he just closed the door.

[00:14:09] It was 9.30 or 10.30 pm.

[00:14:12] And he said you manage your means and everything.

[00:14:17] My kids were upstairs.

[00:14:20] He was drinking and when I knocked the door

[00:14:26] he opened the door and he started shouting at me

[00:14:29] and he said get lost.

[00:14:37] You arrange like some other place where you can stay.

[00:14:47] Today you are not allowed to come here

[00:14:49] and all blah blah blah he said.

[00:14:52] So I didn't understand what to do.

[00:14:55] I never called up my parents or brother or sister.

[00:14:58] That was a turning point when I realised

[00:15:02] how long I have to be dependent.

[00:15:05] Now I have to see myself.

[00:15:26] Would you say that a gas lighter does things intentionally

[00:15:30] or is it just a side effect of his or her personality?

[00:15:35] Are we not aware if we accidentally end up doing this thing?

[00:15:40] Might be, might not be.

[00:15:42] So think about it in the sense that

[00:15:45] most of the gas lighters will have a certain amount of narcissism to them.

[00:15:49] To think about the fact that there's nothing wrong with you

[00:15:52] and everything wrong with the other person

[00:15:54] means that you do not have the ability to introspect.

[00:15:57] Technically you think that there's nothing wrong with you, right?

[00:16:00] Only people who think that there might be something wrong with them

[00:16:03] would want to introspect and kind of let's say change it

[00:16:05] or reform it or revolve it.

[00:16:10] Gaslighting is all about power and control.

[00:16:13] Let me clarify here that it isn't a gender based manipulation

[00:16:17] even though you've heard female voices in this podcast

[00:16:19] a gaslighter could be anybody from the broad spectrum of gender

[00:16:22] and it doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship.

[00:16:34] So from a lot of people that I've spoken to

[00:16:37] what I've also realised is that

[00:16:39] it takes people a while to be able to get out of it

[00:16:41] because the first thing to do is to identify it

[00:16:45] and that is the most impossible and the hardest task of all of it.

[00:16:51] I would say the first is to have this conversation with somebody else.

[00:16:55] Somebody who knows you well, either a good friend

[00:16:58] or maybe a therapist for that matter of fact.

[00:17:01] Somebody who can be like, okay, this is what you're telling me

[00:17:04] if I was to look at a third party point of view

[00:17:07] I can see that this person is definitely manipulating

[00:17:10] your gaslighting in that moment

[00:17:12] and kind of help them own their narrative that

[00:17:15] maybe you thought you were wrong but maybe you are not.

[00:17:19] Maybe what is happening to you is wrong in itself.

[00:17:21] So obviously I actually did narrow it down to

[00:17:26] you know, retro relationships for this episode

[00:17:28] but then from what you say

[00:17:30] it sounds like it's something that could happen at a workplace

[00:17:34] wherever like...

[00:17:36] As long as there's a power dynamic in that relationship

[00:17:38] it will happen.

[00:17:40] Let's say if I think I am shitty

[00:17:43] and my partner is the best

[00:17:45] I'm giving them not technically

[00:17:47] but in a sense I'm giving them this power to kind of also

[00:17:50] kind of change my narrative in that moment.

[00:17:53] In the sense I'm pedestalizing them

[00:17:56] I would not be able to see their flaws as much.

[00:17:58] What about a workplace?

[00:18:00] A workplace...

[00:18:03] Well, a workplace is the epitome where gaslighting happens

[00:18:06] because it's massive power dynamic in that sense.

[00:18:09] I would say at a workplace is to

[00:18:12] have a healthy relationship with your colleagues

[00:18:15] and also to kind of figure out

[00:18:18] whether from your own experience

[00:18:21] if you have had a relationship

[00:18:24] where you took a lot of shit

[00:18:26] and see if there's somebody else is doing something similar

[00:18:29] in your workplace as well.

[00:18:31] It can be like...

[00:18:33] Okay, how about I put it this way?

[00:18:35] You can't be shitty 100%

[00:18:37] Never.

[00:18:39] No matter what

[00:18:41] it can't be that black and white

[00:18:43] it has to be a certain amount of gray.

[00:18:45] Let's say you're...

[00:18:47] even if you're like 95% shitty

[00:18:49] there's still that 5% and that will show.

[00:18:51] Right?

[00:18:53] So let's say I am the boss and I have an employee

[00:18:55] I can't just keep humiliating them

[00:18:57] and not tell them what they are doing well.

[00:18:59] If this is something that is happening

[00:19:01] please look at that place.

[00:19:03] You can't teach somebody through shame and humiliation

[00:19:05] Never has worked.

[00:19:07] How about I give you an example?

[00:19:09] I say, you're so stupid why didn't you see this?

[00:19:11] I am stupid. I won't see this right.

[00:19:14] Makes sense.

[00:19:16] So how are you expecting me to get better

[00:19:18] if you think I'm stupid?

[00:19:19] Then I will also internalize that narrative of yours

[00:19:22] and be like, okay if I am stupid

[00:19:24] then stupid people do this.

[00:19:26] There's no growth there.

[00:19:28] Right?

[00:19:29] And you can take this example

[00:19:31] and you can put it anywhere in any relationship.

[00:19:40] If you have any doubt about being at the receiving end

[00:19:43] then please write in any relation

[00:19:45] be it professional or personal

[00:19:47] seek help from a friend or family

[00:19:49] or even get professional help if required.

[00:19:51] Before I sign off let me tell you

[00:19:53] that if you like listening to this episode of Unmute

[00:19:55] then subscribe to the Quinn's channel

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