247: How Infinyte is helping startup employees become millionaires! | Joy Saldanha & Ankita Tandon (Founders, Infinyte Club)

[00:00:00] Why? Why are you making me feel stupid man? Like just help me understand it like on one end of that spectrum.

[00:00:05] The tech startup ecosystem is going to create more millionaires than any other industry put together multiple times over.

[00:00:12] And ESOPs is the marker of the next-gen wealthy. We steadfastly refused to make a pitch deck.

[00:00:19] We've made enough decks in our lifetime, we're not going to make more decks.

[00:00:25] Specializations for insects, you know as they say, right?

[00:00:27] Yeah, because you have to be multidisciplinary because the problems you encounter both as a builder and as a user are multidisciplinary.

[00:00:38] I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's what execution is what matters.

[00:00:43] And quite frankly if we did not hold the team accountable to really high standards of not just work but also execution,

[00:00:52] we would not be where we are at today.

[00:01:02] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Startup Operator Podcast. I'm Roshan Karyapa.

[00:01:07] If you've worked in a startup, you've likely heard the term ESOP or employee stock options.

[00:01:12] They are indeed a phenomenal way of creating wealth, but unfortunately they're locked away and constitute what you would call paper money.

[00:01:21] My guests today, Joy and Ankita are founders of Infinite Club that are solving that precise problem.

[00:01:28] How can they unlock value and provide real cash and liquidity from those ESOPs?

[00:01:34] And at the other end of the table, how can they also allow people like you and I to invest in that next unicorn startup?

[00:01:44] This was a fun conversation. We spoke about how they're building the company, how the idea germinated, and all the other aspects of product growth and so on and so forth.

[00:01:54] Joy and I go way back and we had many different overlaps to talk about and many different rabbit holes to pursue.

[00:02:01] So this was a fun conversation and if you're interested in early stage building, this is the podcast for you to listen.

[00:02:08] All right, without further ado, let's dive in.

[00:02:11] So Joy and Ankita, welcome to the Startup Operator Podcast. Thank you so much for making the time.

[00:02:16] Thanks for having us, Kari.

[00:02:17] So Joy, you're one of those people that I always thought will become a founder.

[00:02:22] So I'm glad you're finally a founder now.

[00:02:26] What is that transition like? What does it feel like to be a founder?

[00:02:29] Oh, wow. What a good question actually, because I never thought I would ever be a founder.

[00:02:33] Really?

[00:02:34] Yeah, I never did.

[00:02:34] I mean, you always seem like one of those really high agency, very passionate people.

[00:02:40] You know what?

[00:02:40] She is. And you know the funny part is I always optimize for fun.

[00:02:44] I just want to be working with smart people, solving hard problems and having fun.

[00:02:49] So, so long as I'm having fun, it doesn't matter where I was.

[00:02:53] Right? So I think that was the construct in which I worked.

[00:02:56] And then Ankita came along and used to jam frequently, but like all kinds of problems.

[00:03:02] Right? Like, oh, how do we get women back into the workforce?

[00:03:04] How do we, you know, create new ed tech companies?

[00:03:07] Okay. And then I would go to Harvard and say, okay, like, can you look at my portfolio?

[00:03:10] I don't know what I'm doing on it.

[00:03:12] Like, I don't know what to do with my monies.

[00:03:14] Am I doing this right? Am I not doing this right?

[00:03:15] And then, and that's how like wealth happened.

[00:03:18] And you know, that's how we actually got started.

[00:03:26] So you guys were friends first and then became founders, co-founders.

[00:03:29] Yeah.

[00:03:29] You know, I was talking to someone just last week and you know, he was saying that he really needs a co-founder.

[00:03:37] And I said, you know, it only happens through serendipity and happenstance.

[00:03:41] You know, I've never seen like this founder dating kind of thing work out very, very, very rarely. Right?

[00:03:48] No bang on. I think, you know, so this is, you know, my second stint as a founder.

[00:03:55] And the first thing that, you know, the first time, you know, I, what was missing was, you know, not having, you know, a co-founder with a complimentary skill set.

[00:04:02] My co-founder and my previous startup and I had the same skill set.

[00:04:05] So I think one thing that I always knew that I wanted to jump back onto the horse at some point, but I always knew that it will, it will definitely be with a co-founder and it will definitely be with a co-founder with a complimentary skill set.

[00:04:18] And I think hands down joy is perhaps the best product and tech person you will find in the country today.

[00:04:27] So it was, it is my honor and privilege that, that I got to know her.

[00:04:31] And it's like you said, like it's, it was luck that we knew each other for at least I think three years before we decided to start, start up together.

[00:04:40] So, you know, it gave us enough time to, you know, hang out socially and say that, okay, you know, this person's cool.

[00:04:47] I can, you know, I can hang out with this person.

[00:04:49] Uh, second, uh, it gave us enough time to, you know, meet and jam on ideas and, you know, see that there's an intellectual match, uh, or we think the same way or similar in a, we're on the same page on a lot of things.

[00:05:02] So I think, you know, it was about a year before we started.

[00:05:09] I knew I wanted to start up and, and that's when I started telling Joyce, Joy, we have to build something together.

[00:05:14] We have to build something together.

[00:05:15] And I think lo and behold, here we are.

[00:05:18] You know, here's a fun story.

[00:05:19] So the first time I ever met Ankit, I was at a common friend's birthday party.

[00:05:24] Uh, she was sitting there with like one balloon tied to her hand and like just having fun.

[00:05:29] Right.

[00:05:30] And, um, I met her and, and, you know, she told me what she does, et cetera.

[00:05:34] Um, and I just knew I had to work with her.

[00:05:38] Like it was, and I remember that distinct moment.

[00:05:41] That's why I can imagine, I can visualize that moment again.

[00:05:44] Like I knew it.

[00:05:45] And I was like, I have to work with her.

[00:05:46] I don't know how, because I was enjoying my time at Sequoia at that point in time.

[00:05:50] And I was just like, I don't know how I'm going to have, how this is going to happen.

[00:05:53] But turns out these things do happen and they come true.

[00:05:56] Yeah. Startups are so damn hard that if you don't have like this one person with you for the ride, I mean, who's just going to share all of your angst and excitement and be there for you.

[00:06:07] Wow. That's exactly what it is.

[00:06:09] This is really tough, right?

[00:06:10] Really, really tough.

[00:06:11] And yeah, I mean, finding someone who you can hang with, right?

[00:06:14] Not just like, you know, complimentary skill sets.

[00:06:17] So that's, that's pretty awesome.

[00:06:20] How did wealth tech happen?

[00:06:22] I mean, did you like, you said that you guys were jamming on ideas and so on.

[00:06:26] I mean, did you pick a space or did you pick a problem?

[00:06:28] I think we picked a problem, right?

[00:06:32] At least, so when, I mean, I can tell you how I came at this, right?

[00:06:36] Which is, I have always been a product tech design just and, you know, working at multiple companies.

[00:06:42] I've seen this journey of people having ESOPs, what that translates into what wealth unlocks for people, etc.

[00:06:50] I think one thing I really struggled with as an individual who understands tech product and, you know, and money is not very different from that, right?

[00:06:59] It's logical.

[00:07:00] It's also emotional at a certain level.

[00:07:02] I think what I realized is I don't have any tools that help me understand my money and what to do with it, right?

[00:07:09] And that's what I would call Anki and say, hey, you know, tell me what's happening.

[00:07:13] Because she was a money manager in London.

[00:07:15] She knew the space and she could speak that language, which helped me understand what I should be doing, right?

[00:07:23] I mean, like, you know, you're, let's say, in your early 30s and you're saying, hey, everyone around you is doing startup investing.

[00:07:29] So is that something we should be doing or is that more aspirational, right?

[00:07:33] And when should you start doing it?

[00:07:34] At what point do you tap out on your mutual funds?

[00:07:36] All these kinds of questions.

[00:07:38] And I don't think I could fully trust these wealth advisors because it always felt like they're selling me something.

[00:07:45] And I don't want to buy something I don't understand, right?

[00:07:48] Like that's, I think, the second part of this.

[00:07:50] The third was like all of these tools and these wealth managers always had this very holier than, either a holier than thou approach.

[00:07:57] They make you feel stupid, right?

[00:07:59] Yeah, exactly, right?

[00:08:00] Like, why?

[00:08:00] Why are you making me feel stupid, man?

[00:08:02] Like, just help me understand it, right?

[00:08:03] Like on one end of that spectrum.

[00:08:05] And at the other end, it's just so basic.

[00:08:08] And I'm like, I don't even know what do I do?

[00:08:11] Right?

[00:08:11] What next?

[00:08:12] So I think that DIY didn't quite work.

[00:08:15] And then these wealth managers on the other end were constantly telling you, you don't know anything.

[00:08:19] I will tell you what to do rather than having a conversation of equals.

[00:08:24] So I think that's how I came at this space.

[00:08:27] Right.

[00:08:28] But you had a background in this stuff, right?

[00:08:30] So yeah, so it's interesting.

[00:08:31] I actually started my career.

[00:08:32] My education is in, my formal education is in finance.

[00:08:36] And I started my career off in financial services.

[00:08:38] I used to be a money manager for about three or four years before I jumped out and started building in startups.

[00:08:45] So while I was a money manager, what sort of left me unfulfilled or what made me leave the space to start with was that life as a money manager, this is back about 15 years ago.

[00:08:56] So that's the context of India, where as a money manager, our job was to go door to door to clients, to talk to them, explain investments.

[00:09:04] And this is the age of the internet.

[00:09:07] And we were like, you know, it seems bizarre that you have to, you know, really like, you know, sell a product again and again and again and again, have the same conversation again and again.

[00:09:17] So it left me feeling a little, you know, unfulfilled with the profession.

[00:09:23] And the one thing that was very clear at the time was that the incentives of a money manager and the client were not aligned.

[00:09:31] What that means is that in order for the money manager to make money, you would have to sell a product to an investor, which may or may not be right for the person.

[00:09:43] So hypothetically, if I have to explain this as an example, and as a money manager, I need to pay my bills too, right?

[00:09:51] So you only make money if you sell a product and the only products that actually pay you well are equity based product.

[00:09:57] Debt based products don't have the kind of margins.

[00:09:59] So let's say if the world is going to hell and there's this crazy volatility and if somebody, if the right advice for an investor is to, okay, you know what, shift into debt or certain cash for a while.

[00:10:12] There's no margin to be made for a money manager.

[00:10:14] So therefore, there's no incentive for the money manager to tell you that, hey, you know what, you need to shift your asset allocation, you need to shift your asset classes.

[00:10:21] So I found that constant pressure to, you know, be a salesman rather than a money manager or a true wealth advisor and really execute your fiduciary responsibility with the right kind of, you know, principles in place.

[00:10:37] So that left me a little sort of disgruntled to the space.

[00:10:40] And, you know, I left and I jumped into tech startups.

[00:10:43] Tech startup ecosystem in India was just about taking shape.

[00:10:46] And, you know, lo and behold, life brings you a full circle.

[00:10:50] Tech products now are in everybody's hands.

[00:10:53] Everyone has a smartphone.

[00:10:55] There is a plethora of information that is available.

[00:10:58] People are able to do complex things like, you know, you're able to doctor consultations on your phone.

[00:11:03] You're able to get, you know, food in 10 minutes.

[00:11:06] Right.

[00:11:07] So I think it seemed like the right time for a digital solution to exist.

[00:11:15] So I think, yeah, that was the reason why, you know, I decided to come back to wealth.

[00:11:19] And I think that there was, you know, a white space that, you know, we thought that exists.

[00:11:25] So that's how we kind of chose the wealth tech space to jump back in.

[00:11:29] Yeah, I think even though there's a lot that's changed over the last 10, 15 years.

[00:11:34] Right.

[00:11:34] I think financial services fundamentally still operates in this world where information is like completely opaque and so on.

[00:11:41] Right.

[00:11:41] So there are like many instances where I've had the similar experience.

[00:11:44] Like, you know, the guy is selling me something even before I can, you know, tell him or her, you know, what my needs are.

[00:11:52] Right.

[00:11:52] I mean, they don't spend as much time.

[00:11:55] But equity investing, right.

[00:11:58] And that too, I mean, equity of like non-public companies like startups.

[00:12:03] Right.

[00:12:05] That as an asset class itself, I mean, it's evolved like tremendously over the last 20, 25 years.

[00:12:11] Right.

[00:12:11] I mean, you know, 25 years back or 20 years back, it used to be this like real estate guys who just made like god awful money.

[00:12:20] And then like they don't know where to put their money.

[00:12:22] And then like, OK, fine.

[00:12:23] You know what?

[00:12:23] Let me write you a check for like five or 10 lakhs and then take 30 percent of your company or some sort of that.

[00:12:28] Right.

[00:12:29] But today, I mean, angel investing as an asset class itself is like so mature.

[00:12:33] Right.

[00:12:34] I mean, you have venture itself.

[00:12:35] I mean, a lot of family offices coming into the fold and so on and so forth.

[00:12:40] But why do you choose to focus on ESOPs and like startup investing to begin with?

[00:12:46] I think, you know, startups and ESOPs, it's interesting that you bring that up.

[00:12:50] Right.

[00:12:51] Because I think most of us have so much of our wealth locked away in ESOPs.

[00:12:57] We are employed in these companies which are just doing such interesting things.

[00:13:02] And also that becomes the gateway to wealth.

[00:13:06] Right.

[00:13:06] Like for so many of us, our wealth is locked away there.

[00:13:08] Now, if you look at the US, OK, now, like let me take a step back.

[00:13:11] Go to the US.

[00:13:11] What has happened?

[00:13:12] A lot of the tech millionaires, the millionaires and the billionaires who are currently investing and creating these new startups actually emerged from the tech companies.

[00:13:22] These are individuals who had ESOPs, they got liquidity either because, you know, some secondaries happened, IPOs happened, etc.

[00:13:29] And then they've reinvested this money.

[00:13:31] And I think that wave is coming to India as well.

[00:13:36] And so we said, OK, we have to figure out a way where, you know, like we're both sitting on ESOPs and there's somehow no liquidity.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] Right.

[00:13:44] That's one.

[00:13:45] The second thing that happens is how do you actually get ownership in a startup today?

[00:13:50] Honestly, like for people like us, there's only two ways.

[00:13:53] Right.

[00:13:53] You either invest in a company really early at the angel investing stages, which is seed and series A, or you get employed at that company.

[00:14:01] And there seems to be no other way to do this.

[00:14:05] So we said there has to be a different way.

[00:14:07] Right.

[00:14:07] There has to be a way for all of us who have ESOPs to get liquidity and then for us to take some of that liquidity and deploy it into other startups.

[00:14:16] I mean, we're seeing all of these companies come up around us.

[00:14:20] I think Ankit and I have had this experience where, you know, we're in the story, but not part of the story.

[00:14:27] Right.

[00:14:28] And that becomes problematic.

[00:14:30] For sure.

[00:14:31] You often hear of companies racing around or, you know, X and Y.

[00:14:35] And then, you know, obviously your instinct is to ping someone and like in that company and say, hey, congratulations.

[00:14:40] And it's like, dude, I mean, it's all like theoretical, right?

[00:14:43] I mean, it's all paper money.

[00:14:44] I mean, there's nothing that I've seen yet.

[00:14:47] But yeah, I mean, with Infinite Club, I think you guys are like solving that core issue, right?

[00:14:52] No, for sure.

[00:14:53] So I think one thing that we identified and I think that we, you know, we said is that there's absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind that the next generation of wealthy are going to emerge from the startup ecosystem.

[00:15:03] The tech startup ecosystem is going to create more millionaires than any other industry put together multiple times over.

[00:15:09] And ESOPs is the marker of the next gen wealthy.

[00:15:14] So I think if you just look at the unicorns today, there are about 114 unicorns in the country.

[00:15:20] Let's say an average valuation of $2 billion per unicorn.

[00:15:23] That's about $250 billion in value of just our unicorns.

[00:15:29] Now, let's say we say an ESOP pool is 8 to 10 percent on average in a company.

[00:15:34] So you have sitting on a $25 billion ESOP pool in the country, only in the unicorns.

[00:15:39] Let's say if you add the other venture startups, you can easily say it's been $30, $35 billion worth of ESOPs in the country, right?

[00:15:46] Imagine what happens when that becomes liquid, right?

[00:15:49] Of course, not all of it is going to become liquid.

[00:15:51] But I think what I'm trying to point out is a magnitude of it.

[00:15:54] So there are so many millionaires waiting to be unleashed.

[00:15:58] So that's one part of the equation.

[00:15:59] And like Joyce said that, you know, like now we have to figure out a way to unleash this because in the West, we've seen this happen, right?

[00:16:06] Like, you know, when you start giving liquidity to these folks, it unleashes a virtuous cycle.

[00:16:12] The second order.

[00:16:13] Second order impact is a virtuous cycle of, you know, entrepreneurship, creating further employment and so on and so forth.

[00:16:20] So I think we're at that cusp in the Indian context specifically, where we thought that this was the absolute perfect place to get started.

[00:16:31] Let's solve for the tech operator, the folks that have ESOPs, you know, three-folds, right?

[00:16:37] One, enable them to track their ESOPs.

[00:16:40] Two, can we, you know, enable them to get liquidity around their ESOPs?

[00:16:43] And three, can we enable them to diversify their private equity holdings?

[00:16:49] Because like Joyce said, the only way for an operator to get startup equity is to be employed by these companies, right?

[00:16:54] Is there, but let's say if I'm working at an edtech company, hypothetically, I have the edtech companies ESOP,

[00:17:01] but there are fantastic fintech, D2C, insure tech companies being built alongside, where I would love to have a piece of the pie, right?

[00:17:08] 80% of value is created while companies are still private.

[00:17:11] So why is it that the people who are actually building these companies are only able to access via employment, right?

[00:17:18] Or there's a straight chance that you get an angel investment.

[00:17:22] And let's be real, right?

[00:17:23] Like, you know, these companies, these are swooped up by the, you know, super angels, as you call them, right?

[00:17:29] They'll never trickle down to the folks that are actually building them.

[00:17:32] So this is the three sides that we thought we'll attack, you know, or start solving for the startup operator.

[00:17:39] And yeah, that's how we got started.

[00:17:41] That was the birth of Infinite Club, yeah.

[00:17:43] No, it has a huge pull, right?

[00:17:45] I mean, it's very compelling, the value prop, because I mentioned this as well, right?

[00:17:49] That, you know, a lot of folks ping me to ask for like a referral to Infinite Club,

[00:17:54] and they're all interested in how they're going to liquidate their ESOPs or like, you know,

[00:17:58] how do I buy, for instance, the Swiggy secondary, Swiggy shares or whatever, right?

[00:18:03] I mean, it's just, there's just a lot of interest.

[00:18:07] Okay, now you have interest, you need to convert this into a product, right?

[00:18:11] And there's like a whole bunch of things you have to do in between.

[00:18:13] So I let the product person kind of speak about how to go from idea to product.

[00:18:22] I think...

[00:18:24] Did you start with your, you know, what's the design tool you use, Joy?

[00:18:28] I know, right?

[00:18:29] Omni Graffle.

[00:18:31] Back in the days, it was Omni Graffle.

[00:18:34] And Sketch also.

[00:18:35] I think you introduced me to Sketch as well.

[00:18:36] I did, I did.

[00:18:37] But I don't know if you actually know this, that I'm a very paper and pen person.

[00:18:41] Yeah?

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:43] Everything starts on pen and paper.

[00:18:46] And then...

[00:18:46] Yeah, she's got 36 diaries with like, you know, drawings and like all over the place.

[00:18:50] And it's funny because Alkitab will ask me, she said, can I touch this notebook or can I scribble in another?

[00:18:55] And I'm like, not this one, this one.

[00:18:57] So it's just, yeah, like, not a lot, guys.

[00:19:00] But, yeah, so it starts on pen and paper.

[00:19:02] I think when we started out, we said, okay, look, we've got all of this private equity that we want to figure out how to liquidate on one side.

[00:19:10] And then also just once you've got liquidity from this, how do we deploy it, right?

[00:19:13] And I think it was very clear for us that we want...

[00:19:16] And we could have built out two sides of this business, to be honest.

[00:19:19] We have the supply side and you're managing all of this equity.

[00:19:22] How do you help founders manage your cap tables?

[00:19:23] All of that kind of a business, you know, the tracking part of it.

[00:19:26] Or you could figure out how do you actually enable this for people like us.

[00:19:30] And I think the people like us was just more compelling and was the most exciting part of this.

[00:19:35] And we said, if you think about products today, like Swiggy and Zepto and name it, right?

[00:19:41] Like, it's just so easy.

[00:19:43] I sit here and I'm like, okay, three taps and I'm done.

[00:19:48] Right?

[00:19:49] Think about now your finance or a money product, okay?

[00:19:53] Or even like sometimes booking an airline ticket.

[00:19:56] It's like, okay, I have to do this over the weekend.

[00:19:58] I have to sit at my laptop.

[00:20:00] I need to understand the information.

[00:20:03] I need to ask one more person about it, right?

[00:20:06] Why must it be so scary?

[00:20:08] Right?

[00:20:09] So that was the question that I think we tried to answer when we started out with Infinity.

[00:20:14] We said, whatever we do, it has to be simple.

[00:20:17] It has to be easy.

[00:20:19] It should reduce all anxiety, right?

[00:20:22] It should build trust.

[00:20:23] And you have to be able to, you know, complete a transaction with as much ease as possible.

[00:20:29] So that's, those were the foundational principles.

[00:20:32] And then if you think about how, how do we actually operate with money?

[00:20:37] It's, it's silently social.

[00:20:39] I always say it's silently social, right?

[00:20:40] We ask people about, hey, what are you investing in?

[00:20:44] Hey, what else, like what, what do I do over here?

[00:20:47] How, how are you thinking about this?

[00:20:49] You know, what, what have you invested in?

[00:20:50] Where do I go?

[00:20:51] So we had to bring a lot of that aspect also into how you invest.

[00:20:56] So that's how the product actually got started.

[00:20:59] We said there is a transaction layer.

[00:21:01] And then there's a subliminal, emotional, psychological layer, right?

[00:21:06] And money is both, right?

[00:21:09] You obviously, it's about the money that comes into your bank.

[00:21:12] But it is also about how you feel about it.

[00:21:14] And what do you do with it?

[00:21:15] And what does it enable you to do?

[00:21:16] So it's both.

[00:21:18] And our product is all.

[00:21:19] And that's how we as a team think about it, right?

[00:21:22] It's just like, is this good for our users?

[00:21:24] How do we communicate this to our users?

[00:21:27] How do we not condescend to our users?

[00:21:29] I think that's the most critical.

[00:21:30] That's where we start.

[00:21:31] We're like, look, we're serving an intelligent investor.

[00:21:34] They're sophisticated.

[00:21:35] They're smart.

[00:21:36] They're savvy.

[00:21:37] They know what's going on in the world around them.

[00:21:40] They have a point of view.

[00:21:41] They use all kinds of tools, dashboards, AI, name it, right?

[00:21:45] Everything is at their fingertips.

[00:21:47] Daily.

[00:21:47] Every day.

[00:21:48] Every day.

[00:21:48] I mean, it's part of the workflow, right?

[00:21:50] It's not like, oh, something you think about as an afterthought.

[00:21:52] So how do we bring our product to this user and meet them where they are as they are?

[00:21:59] Like, I don't want to condescend to them.

[00:22:00] Nothing, right?

[00:22:01] I want to say, hey, here's what it is.

[00:22:02] You know, why don't you do now what you have to do?

[00:22:05] So whether it's bringing Swiggy's pre-IPO shares, whether it's unlocking angel investing.

[00:22:09] So now you're able to, like if you've got, like for a founder, for example, if they were

[00:22:16] all of your investors aligned, you've got your paperwork set up, it should take you 48 hours.

[00:22:22] Three steps, 48 hours, and you're good to go.

[00:22:25] As a founder, you don't be sitting around saying, okay, when is my money coming?

[00:22:28] Where are my papers?

[00:22:29] Blah, blah, blah, right?

[00:22:30] So how do we make that happen?

[00:22:31] The goal here is to make sure the founder has the money in the bank, right?

[00:22:35] So that they can get started.

[00:22:37] Interesting.

[00:22:38] You know, when we were doing our, you know, we were raising around, we had about 40, you

[00:22:44] know, angels back us.

[00:22:47] So we were fortunate to have, you know, really super guys back us.

[00:22:50] And, you know, what happened during the fundraise was that, you know, it took us like six months

[00:22:57] to close it end to end.

[00:22:58] But, you know, you just don't realize what back end paperwork and back and forth is so

[00:23:05] painful.

[00:23:06] You know, you have to collect the KYC documents, you have to collect, you know, this document

[00:23:10] signing, that document signing, this filing, that filing, then Shandam share certificates.

[00:23:14] Oh my God, it is absolutely painful.

[00:23:17] And also what happens is that, you know, it was almost to a point that it's embarrassing

[00:23:22] to reach out to these folks who are super busy, you know, founders of unicorns.

[00:23:26] And I'm like bugging them for one signature here, one signature there.

[00:23:29] So it was just like, oh my God, you know, this is, it's embarrassing for me as a founder.

[00:23:33] I'm sure it's painful for them as, you know, investing and they must be investing in so

[00:23:37] many companies, right?

[00:23:40] So like this has got to change here.

[00:23:42] So I think serendipitously, we ended up kind of solving that problem as well as part of

[00:23:47] our, you know, workflows.

[00:23:48] And absolutely, I think, you know, there are two, there's one, you know, one aspect of

[00:23:52] simplifying the product and, you know, it's a beautiful journey end to end.

[00:23:55] It can be done in 48 hours.

[00:23:56] And the other aspect is that how do you sort of overlay on that on top of the legal compliance

[00:24:01] work that has to happen, regulatory framework that has to happen in the back.

[00:24:04] So, so I think that it's not as straightforward, right?

[00:24:07] I mean, as buying a public stock or whatever, you have to register as an investor and so

[00:24:12] on and so forth.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:13] So it's like an 18 page document or what have you.

[00:24:16] Well, probably more.

[00:24:17] No.

[00:24:18] So, I mean, obviously, see startup investing is risky.

[00:24:20] It's not for everybody.

[00:24:21] It's not, everybody should not be doing it.

[00:24:23] It is only in, if you invest in startups, there is a significant probability, non-zero

[00:24:29] probability that you're going to lose all your money.

[00:24:30] Right.

[00:24:31] So it is only for people who have a minimum net worth.

[00:24:34] And in case of India, it's two crores if you're going to be investing via an AIF.

[00:24:39] So, so obviously you need to kind of, you know, meet those, those legal requirements.

[00:24:44] But even then it's complex if you're doing it, you know, the, the, the historical way

[00:24:49] of doing it was really tedious.

[00:24:52] So, you know, yeah, that was the reality of the situation.

[00:24:55] You know, we used to have a project management tracker.

[00:24:58] So Anki and I split the investors.

[00:25:00] On who signed them?

[00:25:02] Who's, who's, like one is who's going to chase.

[00:25:04] Right.

[00:25:05] And then we had like a proper like tracker.

[00:25:07] As a proper prospecting.

[00:25:08] She'd be like, okay, paper sent, like document sent.

[00:25:11] Checklist.

[00:25:11] Checklist.

[00:25:12] And she'd be like, okay, Joy, you have to like ping this person.

[00:25:15] And, you know, this is, this is, this is a story that never gets old.

[00:25:18] It's funny.

[00:25:19] It's, I, you know, I'm trying to get the attention of this particular investor.

[00:25:22] He lives in the US.

[00:25:24] Like reached out to everybody.

[00:25:25] He reached out to him.

[00:25:26] He was, he got busy.

[00:25:27] Obviously he got busy.

[00:25:28] He's, he runs a really large company.

[00:25:29] He'd committed to the rounds that he has done everything.

[00:25:32] Right.

[00:25:32] And I'm in touch with his EA, et cetera.

[00:25:34] And then, and he got really busy.

[00:25:36] Um, and then I think we needed his pan card or something.

[00:25:41] And like everything, like every, nothing worked.

[00:25:44] Like, I think it's like, you know, short of sending fire signals, right?

[00:25:47] Like just smoke signals, like, Hey, look at me.

[00:25:49] So then decided, okay, how am I going to get his attention?

[00:25:52] Cause I really need to close this.

[00:25:54] So I went to Twitter and I liked every single one of his tweets.

[00:25:58] Okay.

[00:25:58] Like I just went like, I was like, okay, I'm going to like, like each and every single

[00:26:02] of his tweets.

[00:26:03] And that obviously got his attention.

[00:26:05] He's like, he's like, what's up joy?

[00:26:08] Are you okay?

[00:26:09] I was like, yeah, I just need your pan card.

[00:26:11] Like, it was funny and it was embarrassing and it was so bizarre because I was like, you

[00:26:16] know, as two founders, this is not, it's not, it's not, it's not fun for either side.

[00:26:24] He did not mean to forget about his pan card.

[00:26:27] I did not mean to come across as a, you know, friendly neighborhood stalker.

[00:26:31] And, and here we are.

[00:26:32] Right.

[00:26:33] And how do we do this?

[00:26:34] And, and it actually, you know, going back to your point about startups and angel investing,

[00:26:39] it's actually, I would argue that it's probably one of the assets that has seen the least

[00:26:44] amount of innovation.

[00:26:46] Like, it's just not, it's not on the app.

[00:26:49] Like you're not tracking.

[00:26:50] Like there's so little that you can actually get into the details of, right?

[00:26:55] Even a big, and mostly because it's private markets as well.

[00:26:58] So then how do we kind of, you know, it's like, I feel like we have to drag private mark

[00:27:02] and private investing, like kicking, screaming into the 20, 20, 24, 25.

[00:27:07] Like that's what it feels like.

[00:27:08] It needs, it needs a lot more energy and fuel behind it to, to get caught up with the times.

[00:27:14] So what did the first level of user or customer research tell you?

[00:27:18] Like, did you discover something that was non-intuitive?

[00:27:22] Because I mean, in a sense you're building for us.

[00:27:24] So you can have a very strong point of view in terms of what the app, part of product should

[00:27:30] do and so on and so forth.

[00:27:31] But were you blown away by something, some crazy insight that came up?

[00:27:36] Yeah, there were a couple of stories that really stood out, you know, for, you know,

[00:27:40] for us, which actually made us realize that, you know, holy shit, this is the right place

[00:27:44] to start.

[00:27:44] So I think when we got started, the sort of the thesis that we had was that the wealth

[00:27:48] management space currently has two ends of the spectrum solved for, you know, one end

[00:27:53] of the spectrum is you have these great DIY platforms, which, you know, you know, is

[00:27:56] great for people who know what, what they want to do with their money.

[00:27:59] On the other end, you have, like Jo was mentioning, these white glove services of, you know,

[00:28:03] wealth managers who are only serve the ultra high net worth, right?

[00:28:07] And their bespoke offerings, etc.

[00:28:08] But there was this missing middle for people, you know, who are, let's say, not in core

[00:28:13] finance, who may not understand things, but they just need a little bit of handholding,

[00:28:16] etc.

[00:28:17] And so, you know, we said, okay, there's a missing space in the middle to build something

[00:28:20] that is like intuitive, you know, tells you, you know, handholds you, you know, in terms

[00:28:26] of telling you what to do and how to think about it.

[00:28:29] But you still retain the ownership of your money.

[00:28:32] And you still have that sense of accomplishment and control on your on your money.

[00:28:35] So, you know, when we got started, so it was the identified middle white space, but we

[00:28:40] said, okay, you know, we started interviewing folks, we interviewed like 100 people.

[00:28:44] And we talked to them about the relationship with their money, how do they invest?

[00:28:48] Do they need help?

[00:28:49] How do they think about their portfolio?

[00:28:51] And, you know, all of those things.

[00:28:52] So then, you know, while we were doing this research, we came across this group of boys

[00:28:58] in.

[00:28:59] And so we spoke to one of the, you know, one of the boys, and he had a group of six friends,

[00:29:04] you know, Libri and HSR.

[00:29:05] And he says that, you know, we actually, you know, have our, all of us track our ESOPs

[00:29:12] on one Excel file.

[00:29:13] And there's a pact that, you know, the eventual outcome of all our ESOPs will be split proportionately

[00:29:20] amongst us.

[00:29:21] So you're like, wow.

[00:29:23] So they created a portfolio amongst ourselves.

[00:29:25] They created a portfolio amongst ourselves.

[00:29:26] That was one story.

[00:29:27] Then there was another story where we had this one PM that we spoke to, you know, like

[00:29:30] I'm going to say about maybe 28, 30.

[00:29:32] So mid sort of mid career PM who said that, you know, every two years I changed my job.

[00:29:39] I, I joined a series A company and then I leave it by the time it becomes series C and

[00:29:44] then I start over and join again.

[00:29:45] So you're like, why?

[00:29:46] He's like, because I'm portfolio managing my career, right?

[00:29:49] I'm accumulating stock in company in various companies.

[00:29:54] So we were like, wow.

[00:29:55] So there is this recognition and understanding that, you know, ownership is what really makes

[00:30:03] you wealthy.

[00:30:03] Right.

[00:30:04] So, so we were like, okay.

[00:30:05] So then that was like, you know, a bullseye moment for us.

[00:30:08] We were like, okay, this is the cohort of individuals need to solve for.

[00:30:12] We need to solve around the asset class that they care about the most.

[00:30:15] We start there.

[00:30:17] And these folks, you know, they are, they, they may not have your, you know, fancy finance

[00:30:23] jargon and, and the parlance, but they're sharp and they're with it.

[00:30:27] Right.

[00:30:27] They just need to be sort of given the first two steps and then they're running after that.

[00:30:32] Right.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:32] So they spend their days trying to figure stuff out.

[00:30:35] Exactly.

[00:30:36] They're first principles thinker at the end of it.

[00:30:38] Right.

[00:30:38] Like, and they, they, they know what to do.

[00:30:41] You just have to sort of nudge them in the right direction.

[00:30:43] And you just have to give them the tools to do it.

[00:30:45] Right.

[00:30:45] And just give them the data, the information.

[00:30:47] And, and people put it together.

[00:30:48] So you validated the idea.

[00:30:50] Right.

[00:30:51] Now all the company building stuff follows.

[00:30:53] Right.

[00:30:53] So it's like, it's two people, two people, an idea and like a 20 page essay.

[00:30:59] That's where we are at this point.

[00:31:00] Right.

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] That's an interesting thing.

[00:31:02] You guys didn't make like a pitch deck, but you made like a memo or an essay for investors,

[00:31:08] which I think is like a sort of a trend that's catching up.

[00:31:12] People make memos these days.

[00:31:13] Trends that are.

[00:31:14] For the better.

[00:31:16] It was a 20 page essay.

[00:31:18] Yeah.

[00:31:18] That we, we wrote and we said, we're not going to make a deck.

[00:31:21] So every time somebody said, will you make a deck?

[00:31:25] And we said, have you read it?

[00:31:26] I said, yes.

[00:31:27] Then will you make the deck?

[00:31:29] So that's one thing that happened.

[00:31:30] And we, we'd go in.

[00:31:32] I think we steadfastly refused to make a pitch deck.

[00:31:34] Yeah.

[00:31:34] We just like, we've done enough.

[00:31:35] We've made enough decks in our lifetime.

[00:31:38] We're not going to make more decks.

[00:31:39] So this is the note.

[00:31:41] Yeah.

[00:31:41] Like it's just like, you know, we just have to.

[00:31:43] Sucks man.

[00:31:43] PowerPoint sucks.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] Just like, you know, it helps you exactly explain how you're thinking about something.

[00:31:51] Why?

[00:31:51] Right.

[00:31:51] Like I think writing clarifies thought.

[00:31:54] And that's just so essential, especially when you're building a company and you have

[00:31:59] a long term vision.

[00:32:00] You want to, you want to like get into the details of saying, this is how I see this coming to

[00:32:06] life.

[00:32:07] Joy, 30 minutes into the conversation, we have like a first Nawalism.

[00:32:11] Oh my God.

[00:32:13] Peak startup.

[00:32:15] I don't know if he would like it that, you know, you've, you've made him into a coinage

[00:32:21] of Nawalism.

[00:32:22] I think writing is clarifying thought or some such thing.

[00:32:26] I mean, yeah.

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:26] But it is true.

[00:32:27] Right.

[00:32:27] It is true.

[00:32:28] It is absolutely true.

[00:32:29] And you know, in our essay, it's, you'll like this.

[00:32:31] Um, just like Van Halen style.

[00:32:33] We had a little detail embedded.

[00:32:36] Um, yeah, it was an Easter egg.

[00:32:38] And I would ask people, they said, okay, you know, we'd go into a room.

[00:32:41] He said, have you read the essay?

[00:32:43] He said, yeah.

[00:32:43] And then, you know, some people would like raise their hands and say, I've raised my, you

[00:32:46] know, I've read it.

[00:32:47] And I'm like, okay, then tell me about this.

[00:32:49] And if you didn't know, then that means I know that you've not.

[00:32:53] You knew, of course.

[00:32:53] Yeah.

[00:32:54] Of course I knew it.

[00:32:54] How do you guys get your first hundred users?

[00:32:59] And, uh, yeah, considering that a lot of founders and operators are listening to this,

[00:33:04] watching this, right?

[00:33:05] What, what were your learnings from, you know, getting your first hundred users?

[00:33:10] No, I think, uh, I think Joy and I both had enough gray hair when we started the company.

[00:33:15] So, you know, we've been, um, fortunate to be part of the ecosystem for a while.

[00:33:19] Hey, you, not me.

[00:33:22] So, you know, we actually, you know, we've, so we were lucky that when we got started, you

[00:33:26] know, uh, so we had 40, you know, angels, um, who are, you know, unicorn founders.

[00:33:32] And, uh, so our natural design partners emerged from there.

[00:33:37] But I think, um, the, uh, I think just principally the early found, early customers you have to

[00:33:43] recruit.

[00:33:44] Um, and we did that for our first thousand customers, right?

[00:33:47] Uh, you cannot get away from founder sales.

[00:33:49] You cannot get away from recruiting, um, your customers.

[00:33:52] And, and it really sort of helps, you know, in your product building process as well, in

[00:33:56] terms of your business model as well.

[00:33:58] You want to see how your early customers are reacting to your product.

[00:34:00] So I think, um, yeah, for us, it was that.

[00:34:03] And you have to build in partnership with your customers, right?

[00:34:08] So it was for us and, and you can't outsource sales.

[00:34:11] And I think Carrie, you know this, especially from B2B setups as well, right?

[00:34:15] I think you've done this very early on that it is founder led sales.

[00:34:18] Even in B2C, it is actually still founded led sales.

[00:34:21] We, we continue to do all of the customer support.

[00:34:26] We continue to do sales calls, right?

[00:34:28] All of them, because, you know, we have to explain and understand as well from our customers,

[00:34:33] what do they want and what do they need?

[00:34:35] Um, so yeah, that's, that's actually how it started.

[00:34:38] So you have to, um, I think you have to build for one before you build for end, right?

[00:34:41] I mean, um, I think the zero to one, a lot of people like look for all these growth

[00:34:46] hacks that will instantly you turn on a campaign and like thousand people or like 10,000 people

[00:34:51] come streaming into your platform or start using a product.

[00:34:54] And you don't recognize them at all.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:55] You don't recognize them and you don't know why they're coming there and, you know,

[00:34:59] um, whether they'll find value and why they leave, right?

[00:35:02] Which is like painful.

[00:35:03] Like it's real chaos actually, especially if you're on the consumer side.

[00:35:06] So having these conversations with people, like real people that you know, and that you're

[00:35:11] listening to, I think is so important, even if you're building on the B2C side of things.

[00:35:16] And the second thing is I think on, on the B2C side, people tend to think in terms of like

[00:35:21] millions, right?

[00:35:22] I'm going to get like a million, 10 million or whatever users, but for products like yours,

[00:35:27] right?

[00:35:27] I mean, you, you can think of a more finite crowd, for example, right?

[00:35:31] Because I don't think you will have a million, maybe we'll touch it, let's say, right?

[00:35:35] But a million people investing in startups versus the thousand or the 5,000 more likely, uh,

[00:35:42] folks are, are super important, right?

[00:35:44] Um, the, the compliance aspect of it, right?

[00:35:47] Which is like the 800 pound gorilla in the room, right?

[00:35:51] How do you solve for that?

[00:35:53] Because it seems like a really compelling idea and everyone wants to do it, but then there's

[00:35:58] just like a whole bunch of paperwork.

[00:36:00] I mean, to be honest, I mean, I also got like turned off by the, the, the paperwork per

[00:36:05] se, right?

[00:36:05] Which is like, I didn't want to like, I didn't have the patience to read all of this stuff.

[00:36:09] And I didn't want to sign off on something that, you know, uh, I didn't understand as well.

[00:36:15] So how do you solve for that?

[00:36:16] Um, and then, uh, of course, I mean, as part of that interacting with your SEBI and whoever

[00:36:22] else is involved in this ecosystem, how do you solve for that?

[00:36:25] Yeah, I think, so there is a bunch of, um, you know, regulation and compliance.

[00:36:30] When it comes to startup investing and rightfully so, right?

[00:36:33] Uh, like we spoke about this earlier startup investing is extremely risky and it's not for

[00:36:37] everyone.

[00:36:39] Um, and there are, you know, laws, you know, for good measure around it.

[00:36:43] Now there is, um, how, how do you start up and invest?

[00:36:46] Let's kind of break it down, right?

[00:36:47] You can either invest directly, you go direct onto the cap table, uh, which is, you know,

[00:36:53] which you, if that, that works when you're writing large checks and you know, the founder

[00:36:57] personally, and you know, you're kind of writing a large check and you get on the cap table.

[00:37:00] Uh, but that's actually in the long run, very difficult for a founder.

[00:37:04] You should not be, you know, having a lot of angels in your cap table because eventually

[00:37:08] management and corporate actions become really hard eventually.

[00:37:12] So how do you do this?

[00:37:13] So there is, there are only three vehicles that are, that are able to pool money.

[00:37:18] That means people can pool their money and invest together, right?

[00:37:22] Uh, managers cannot manage pooled accounts.

[00:37:24] Okay.

[00:37:25] So it's called CIS.

[00:37:26] It's not allowed.

[00:37:26] So the only three vehicles in the country that are allowed to pool money are one mutual

[00:37:30] funds.

[00:37:31] So mutual fund managers can take money from multiple individuals and invest it like a

[00:37:35] portfolio.

[00:37:35] The second is PMS and the third is AIFs.

[00:37:39] Okay.

[00:37:39] Um, AIFs are what are called alternative investment funds.

[00:37:43] And there are three, three types.

[00:37:44] I'm not going to go into what each type does, but we have a cat one angel fund.

[00:37:48] So cat one angel fund is allowed to pool money from prospective angels and then kind of go

[00:37:53] in as one investor on the cap table for, um, for the startup.

[00:37:58] So that's, that's the infrastructure that, that, that we use.

[00:38:02] Uh, so we are a SEBI registered cat one angel fund.

[00:38:06] That means that Joy and I are SEBI registered fund managers.

[00:38:09] So we were diligence and et cetera, uh, we were diligence and, you know, so there's a bunch

[00:38:14] of compliances that you have to kind of go through and there's like a, you know, massive

[00:38:18] laundry list of, you know, of things that you need to do.

[00:38:21] So there's a lot of, you know, um, protection that we have to, we get interested with what is

[00:38:26] called as fiduciary responsibility for the people investing by us.

[00:38:30] So, um, you know, you have to, there is no, so, I mean, it's, it's just something that

[00:38:34] you have to do.

[00:38:35] There is a lot of compliance behind it.

[00:38:37] Um, but you solve it so that it becomes painless and it becomes almost like a catalyst for the

[00:38:42] ecosystem to thrive right now.

[00:38:43] You have people who are interested in, you know, getting ownership in the next gen companies.

[00:38:48] You have these entrepreneurs with brilliant ideas and essentially they need the fuel.

[00:38:52] Right.

[00:38:53] Uh, so this is regulation and compliance, uh, becomes the backbone, you know, which supports

[00:39:00] this sort of connective tissue to come together.

[00:39:02] And it's interesting what you said, right?

[00:39:04] I think it just belabors that point that it's not for everyone.

[00:39:08] Yeah.

[00:39:08] Right.

[00:39:09] It is so highly risky, so highly volatile that, and it is also illiquid for a certain amount

[00:39:15] of time.

[00:39:15] Right.

[00:39:16] Like, I mean, angel investing, you invest for the next seven, 10, 15 years, even sometimes,

[00:39:21] right?

[00:39:21] Till a company goes public or till there is some liquidity event as we call it.

[00:39:26] Um, so which means, I mean, you need a stomach for it and you need the muscle for it.

[00:39:30] And it's just, therefore it's a hard one and it's not for everybody.

[00:39:34] I mean, we, yeah, we work in it because it's fun, it's exciting, it's innovative.

[00:39:38] And I think so many of us have our, um, you know, assets in the form of ESOPs and that's

[00:39:44] great, but if we don't have the, both the stomach and the muscle, I don't think it's, it's meant

[00:39:50] for everyone.

[00:39:50] But people skip the curve all the time.

[00:39:52] Okay.

[00:39:52] I mean, like, if you think about it, like insurance, debt fund, equity, and then something

[00:39:58] like this, I mean, people, people skip that curve all the time.

[00:40:02] So I do feel like, yeah.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Um, I think platforms like this, the one good thing is that you also are educating people

[00:40:09] about the possibilities, right?

[00:40:10] Like what it goes into it.

[00:40:12] I mean.

[00:40:12] Yeah.

[00:40:13] And, and, you know, it's interesting.

[00:40:14] You said that, that we skip the curve and I, and I don't think there's merit in skipping

[00:40:18] the curve.

[00:40:19] Right.

[00:40:20] I think there has to be like what Anki calls the barbell approach and, you know, where there

[00:40:26] is 90%.

[00:40:28] Yeah.

[00:40:28] You need to have a split of assets, right?

[00:40:30] You need to have, uh, your core portfolio, which is doing, you know, um, you're doing your

[00:40:36] basics, right?

[00:40:37] Right.

[00:40:37] Like you said, don't skip your insurance, have an emergency fund, uh, invest in the index,

[00:40:42] uh, take sufficient debt and equity exposure so that you are, you know, not just sort of

[00:40:47] you're protected, but also you're incrementally, you're growing your wealth.

[00:40:50] Right.

[00:40:50] So that, that, that has to sort of, so they're maintaining your lifestyle as well.

[00:40:53] Right.

[00:40:53] So one, you're protecting, you're making sure that you're never going to end up on the streets.

[00:40:57] So that's your, you know, um, safety, you know, safety basket.

[00:41:01] The second thing is that you're, you're, you're growing along the market.

[00:41:05] So you're maintaining your lifestyle and growing along with, but on how do you kind of leapfrog

[00:41:10] to the next sort of orbit of wealth?

[00:41:12] Right.

[00:41:13] Then you have to take these asymmetric bets.

[00:41:16] You have to take like bets that, you know, um, aspirational, aspirational bets that will,

[00:41:20] you know, result in you kind of catapulting that.

[00:41:22] But obviously now these bets by the nature of them being, uh, illiquid, risky, they couldn't,

[00:41:28] they can go right.

[00:41:29] They can go wrong.

[00:41:29] So obviously do not, uh, make the mistake of, you know, putting your entire nest egg into

[00:41:34] it because you're going to have, you're going to wake up to an extremely rude shock.

[00:41:37] Right.

[00:41:38] Like, so, you know, it's interesting you say, so startup investing also there is, it's

[00:41:41] not in people, what people get it wrong is, you know, they'll say, you know, okay, let's

[00:41:46] talk about a typical scenario.

[00:41:48] You know, someone has come into money, you know, probably got some liquidity, you know, and

[00:41:52] they say, okay, I'm going to start startup investing.

[00:41:54] Awesome.

[00:41:54] So they will say, let's, let's do it.

[00:41:56] So they'll invest, let's say, you know, minimum amount you want to write in startups, you'll

[00:42:00] have to start writing, you know, historically three to five lakhs in a company.

[00:42:04] So you say, okay, you invest in your first company, second company, you invest in a third

[00:42:08] company in the year.

[00:42:09] And then by the time you invest in your third company in say 15 months, your first company

[00:42:14] has started to go bust.

[00:42:15] Like, okay, let me slow down.

[00:42:17] You know, let me slow this down.

[00:42:18] And you've made no other investments for, you know, for another, let's say one year

[00:42:22] and lo and behold, you've lost money in all three.

[00:42:25] Right.

[00:42:26] So the only right way to do startup investing is to build a portfolio of startups.

[00:42:31] Right.

[00:42:32] So to your point, right, you can't skip the steps, right?

[00:42:36] Like, you know, like in math, you know, in algebra, we used to skip, you know, the steps.

[00:42:40] There's no, you know, over there, while you arrive at the right answer is still okay here.

[00:42:44] There is no merit in skipping steps.

[00:42:46] You're going to, you're going to really mess up if you skip the steps.

[00:42:48] So, so you have to, you know, so having platforms that tell you how to diversify even in your

[00:42:54] risk allocation.

[00:42:55] So one is don't mix your, you know, your, your, your core portfolio and your risk allocation

[00:43:01] and within your risk allocation, how do we enable you to have the best possible outcome?

[00:43:05] So you've spoken about how you validated the idea and how we're building the product.

[00:43:10] But the, the team aspect of it, right, like going from idea to product to company, like

[00:43:15] having other people who kind of share your passion for the problem that you're solving

[00:43:19] and are in it for the long run, like building a team.

[00:43:23] What have we learned about building a team?

[00:43:27] So, you know, Carrie, we were coming at a very complicated problem, right?

[00:43:31] Like, so what we said was that traditional solutions don't work.

[00:43:34] And I think we, I think like Joy said that wealth is silently social, right?

[00:43:39] So not only is there a technical aspect of money management and wealth management, but

[00:43:43] there's also an emotional and psychological element to it, right?

[00:43:48] So the kind of product that we have built does not come together without a very special set

[00:43:54] of folks, right?

[00:43:56] So we've got designers who understand finance.

[00:43:58] We've got product managers who understand taxes.

[00:44:00] We've got, you know, child accountants who understand growth.

[00:44:04] So we, when we are hiring for our team, we look for T-shaped personalities.

[00:44:12] Essentially folks that can go really deep, you know, who obviously have, you know, technical

[00:44:16] depth in, in their sort of functional area, but can also go across functions.

[00:44:22] And also because, you know, our product is at the intersection of tech, legal, psychology

[00:44:27] and design, right?

[00:44:29] So how do you find that Venn diagram, that intersection point is when all parties can come together

[00:44:34] and empathize and understand each other's point of view and perspective.

[00:44:38] So, so I think we've been very clear that we're looking for multifaceted, you know, folks

[00:44:42] that are not just great at what they do, but also have the acumen to go across.

[00:44:47] Yeah.

[00:44:48] Yeah.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:49] No, it used to be that way, right?

[00:44:50] I mean, so I've been in startups for about 16 years now, right?

[00:44:53] And you guys have spent a good amount of time on, in startups itself, right?

[00:44:57] The old days were all like this, right?

[00:44:59] I mean, a sales guy knew a bit of product.

[00:45:00] I mean, you know, our VP tech at the time that I've worked in the startup, I mean, he

[00:45:09] was doing a lot of customer front ending also, right?

[00:45:11] I mean, if you, if you saw him on one of those days, you would think that he's probably

[00:45:14] a delivery person or something of that sort.

[00:45:16] And then, you know, somehow, I mean, as the ecosystem kind of matured, I mean, we became

[00:45:21] super specialized to the point where, you know, you have a product manager, one of 40

[00:45:27] who's managing some payment experience for this particular partner or something.

[00:45:31] One particular funnel, right?

[00:45:33] What specializations for insects, you know, as they say, right?

[00:45:36] Yeah, because you have to be multidisciplinary because the problems you encounter both as

[00:45:45] a builder and as a user are multidisciplinary, right?

[00:45:48] And they require that you engage different parts of your brain.

[00:45:52] Like you obviously the cerebral logical part to say, okay, how does this transaction work?

[00:45:58] Right.

[00:45:58] Right.

[00:45:58] But also as, as a user, what do you, what do you want the user to feel at that point in

[00:46:28] the repercussions of getting it wrong are very high?

[00:46:32] Like, you know, you'll like run into these loops of getting, talking to customer service,

[00:46:36] you can't cancel a ticket, all of those kinds of things, right?

[00:46:39] Or like in our case, the money going to the wrong account or all of those, you know, these

[00:46:42] little things that really will keep you up, will make you double check.

[00:46:47] So the way we approach it is this, when a user goes through a particular step, how are

[00:46:54] we making the person feel?

[00:46:55] Are we, are we, are we going to calm them down?

[00:46:57] Are we going to help them understand, you know, what is going on?

[00:47:00] Or are we going to infuse fear into that transaction?

[00:47:03] So, which means at every point, not only is your logical part engaged, but your curiosity,

[00:47:08] your empathy, all of those, the human sides of you also have to come through.

[00:47:13] And that's how, and that's how we think about building our team.

[00:47:16] So I, our team is, you know, they've, we've got nerds who are deeply into dancing or, you

[00:47:23] know, we've got people who will go into gardening and, you know, things that just that engages

[00:47:28] all parts of them.

[00:47:30] And this magic happens at the intersection of ideas, right?

[00:47:33] Absolutely.

[00:47:34] Yeah.

[00:47:34] I miss that, man.

[00:47:35] I mean, it used to be, it used to be that like the startup junta used to be like complete

[00:47:40] eccentrics, right?

[00:47:41] I mean, like they had sides to themselves that you'd be like pleasantly surprised that they

[00:47:46] have to be an eccentric, no?

[00:47:47] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Absolutely.

[00:47:49] I really, really miss that.

[00:47:50] Okay.

[00:47:51] And especially with product, right?

[00:47:53] Because I mean, the old days, a product was basically, you know, someone who brought

[00:47:57] the design, I mean, design or building perspective, someone who brought the business perspective

[00:48:03] together, right?

[00:48:04] And like kept the user at the center of it and so on.

[00:48:06] Yeah.

[00:48:07] Because I'm not just, as a user, I'm not just worried about the payment experience.

[00:48:11] I probably have like four things that I've done before.

[00:48:13] That's also intrinsically tied to my entire experience, right?

[00:48:17] Right.

[00:48:17] So having a product person who kind of understands and empathizes with that whole journey rather

[00:48:23] than like one siloed part is just so important.

[00:48:27] And yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, we've kind of lost that as we've scaled.

[00:48:32] You know, I don't know if we've actually lost it.

[00:48:35] I don't know if we're going to like a whole product rant.

[00:48:37] I don't know if you've lost it, but I think, you know, we've always said, oh, you're the

[00:48:42] advocate for the user and you're the CEO of your product and, you know, all of these

[00:48:46] like...

[00:48:47] Product folks are like the best cliches, right?

[00:48:49] I mean, like, you want to point to an empty chair and then say like, that's the user.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] I guess at some point you have to have to be like, this person, it's a human.

[00:49:01] You're solving for, right?

[00:49:03] That human has emotions.

[00:49:05] They have needs.

[00:49:07] They also have other things going on in their life.

[00:49:11] And also you have a...

[00:49:12] And I think this is something very core to being a product manager, which some of us get,

[00:49:18] some of us don't, is that we operate at the intersection of strategy, business, design,

[00:49:25] tech, and user advocacy, right?

[00:49:28] And solving for the user.

[00:49:30] You can't just be like, oh, I don't really care about monetization or I don't really understand

[00:49:36] sales.

[00:49:37] No, you can't do it, right?

[00:49:38] Like, I mean, when we jam and this is a very interesting partnership we've had because I

[00:49:44] am the user.

[00:49:46] Like, I understand money only as much as I understand it.

[00:49:50] And she understands it to, you know, depths and heights that she gets.

[00:49:54] So it's always a very interesting coming together.

[00:49:57] We say, okay, go to her.

[00:49:58] And I'm like, oh, what happened here?

[00:49:59] Like, how does this work, right?

[00:50:01] And then she'll explain this to me.

[00:50:02] And then when we're thinking about our monetization or, you know, how do we create revenue?

[00:50:06] Again, it's a question of saying, hey, what does this mean from a product perspective?

[00:50:12] What does this mean from a cost perspective?

[00:50:15] Engineering is also cost, right?

[00:50:18] Some of us forget that.

[00:50:19] But engineering is also cost.

[00:50:22] And, you know, how do we monetize?

[00:50:24] How do we, like, you know, bring this up over how do we cross sell?

[00:50:28] How do we upsell?

[00:50:29] Like, all of these have to be built into creating a product.

[00:50:34] It can't be, like, so narrowly focused that you're forgetting different parts of the business

[00:50:43] and how these different parts come together.

[00:50:45] I think Patrick Condit of Rippling had a very interesting take.

[00:50:50] And it's very contrarian to how usually the startup folks talk about it, right?

[00:50:55] Which is focus, focus, focus.

[00:50:56] He says build a compound startup, which is build interoperable pieces that kind of work together, right?

[00:51:04] One piece bouncing off the other, one piece feeding into the other.

[00:51:08] And that's how actually we've built Infinite.

[00:51:11] So it brings together, like, if we serve the needs of our founders today who are setting up companies,

[00:51:19] tomorrow these founders also become investors, right, into other companies.

[00:51:23] So how do we build a product that helps them experience this founder approach to fundraising?

[00:51:30] But at the same time, like, we also help them understand the investor side of it.

[00:51:34] So which means we've had to build both sides if you think about it, right?

[00:51:37] And if we had to only focus, then we would have only gone down one path and not actually solve the other side of the problem.

[00:51:44] Yeah, it's like approaching the problem, you know, from two sides, right?

[00:51:46] Like, whenever some of the parts is larger.

[00:51:49] So I think that's something that we've been, you know, like Joy said, contrary to what every startup gyanee will tell you, right?

[00:51:56] Like, they'll say focus, focus, focus, you know.

[00:51:58] But actually, we, you know, started sort of approaching the problem from two ends.

[00:52:01] Multiple ends, actually.

[00:52:02] Multiple ends.

[00:52:04] And lo and behold, I think that's what…

[00:52:07] That's how we've…

[00:52:07] It's also because you've gathered these insights about a very specific set of users or people, right?

[00:52:14] And I'm sure, you know, I mean, they have more challenges than just one, right?

[00:52:19] You know, conventional logic would be that, okay, you build for one and then scale.

[00:52:23] But then, I mean, you also have to solve this problem in a very holistic way, right?

[00:52:27] And, yeah, I mean, I am seeing quite a lot of folks approach this Parker-Conrad way where, like, you know, you build like a…

[00:52:34] I wouldn't call it a multi-product, you know, sort of a thing.

[00:52:38] But at least multi-module, at least, right?

[00:52:41] I mean, you look at, you know, other parts of…

[00:52:44] Other challenges that you could solve as well, right?

[00:52:47] And not just look at one silo problem.

[00:52:48] Because I think once you start building out a wedge product, you try to get into a market, right?

[00:52:52] And then you say, okay, I'm going to solve this problem.

[00:52:55] Soon, you're going to have multiple more problems that you will need to solve for your user base.

[00:53:01] So, I think it's good to have just a sense of it.

[00:53:03] You may not want to start building it.

[00:53:05] I think this is something we want to…

[00:53:06] No, it informs everything, right?

[00:53:08] Exactly.

[00:53:08] I mean, it informs all of your, like, what decisions you make on your engineering, the product, I mean, the business strategy and so on.

[00:53:15] And it also helps you craft the vision, right?

[00:53:17] And especially, you know, we were talking about how do you, like, how do you construct a team?

[00:53:20] And teams also want to see, like, smart, sharp individuals want to know that they're going to solve a breadth of a problem.

[00:53:27] And at the depth of it, right?

[00:53:29] It's not just, oh, I'm going to solve a very uniquely singular problem.

[00:53:33] Like, that's what five people care about.

[00:53:34] Yeah, right?

[00:53:35] Like, at some point, like, it gets boring.

[00:53:38] So, you want to know that, okay, there is a larger universe that you are building around this.

[00:53:43] And how are you going to approach it?

[00:53:45] And you have to see these pieces, like, how are they going to…

[00:53:48] Play off of each other.

[00:53:49] Play off of each other.

[00:53:50] How are they going to come together?

[00:53:51] And we've always said this in product, right?

[00:53:53] It's not a matter of if you're going to build it.

[00:53:55] It's a matter of when are you going to build it.

[00:53:56] And that's the concept of prioritization.

[00:53:58] And that's what you actually then need to bring to this vision and say, okay, if we have to go from here to there,

[00:54:04] and this is what that path looks like, but where do we start?

[00:54:07] And if all goes well, what does this changed world look like?

[00:54:11] Right.

[00:54:13] So, that's a lot of work, okay?

[00:54:15] And I didn't hear you talk about this culture of shipping every week, right?

[00:54:21] How do you kind of imbibe that in your team?

[00:54:24] You know, ship every day.

[00:54:26] And then, therefore, you ship every week.

[00:54:29] Because at the end of the day, you should have outcomes that you're proud of, right?

[00:54:34] And, you know, I say this often, like, please don't mistake motion for progress.

[00:54:39] You know, I imagine it as, like, sitting on this toy horse and just moving on that horse.

[00:54:45] It's, like, the worst feeling ever.

[00:54:47] Like, why do things that don't take us forward?

[00:54:52] Anyway, right?

[00:54:53] Like, it's just wasted energy and effort.

[00:54:55] So, which means, like, we have to visualize, okay, what is the impact?

[00:55:00] What are the outcomes we want to drive?

[00:55:02] And then can we, like, work on these high impact areas?

[00:55:06] And that really helps, you know, and even, like, I think startups that do well have focus in that, right?

[00:55:14] Like, yes, it seems contrary to say, okay, we're talking about a compound startup on one hand and we're talking about focus.

[00:55:18] But if you have to get things moving, just pare down the list and say, okay, what are we going to ship?

[00:55:22] Right?

[00:55:23] What is it that's going to actually have an impact on our user?

[00:55:26] So, if you ship every day, then, you know, you get into this habit of anyway shipping something meaningful over a week.

[00:55:34] Like, you know, when at my previous job, one of the things we used to look at was how often did a company release?

[00:55:43] Right?

[00:55:44] And we would look at their, the data on at least even on Google Play Store.

[00:55:47] I don't know if they still do it.

[00:55:49] But at that point, they used to tell you how often a company had releases.

[00:55:53] Right?

[00:55:54] And a company that is not shipping very often, like, usually has something going on.

[00:56:00] And that's not a good sign because you want to be putting things out, experimenting, just pushing to users, testing.

[00:56:07] Right?

[00:56:07] Going out there, just building.

[00:56:09] You know, startups are not about the idea.

[00:56:11] You know, ideas are dime a dozen.

[00:56:13] It's about the execution of it, you know.

[00:56:15] We have actually a crazy story around this, you know.

[00:56:17] So, we actually had, you know, when we were raising our round, we actually, you know, had, we were talking to, you know, a potential investor.

[00:56:24] And that potential investor brought in another person on the call saying, it's my friend.

[00:56:28] It was introduced as a friend.

[00:56:29] So, we said, okay, perhaps this person is also evaluating, you know, if they want to invest in our company.

[00:56:34] So, we're like, okay, fine.

[00:56:35] And, you know, we narrated our whole idea, our whole vision.

[00:56:38] And literally, I think, play by play, we kind of said, okay, this is what's going to happen, then next, then next, then next.

[00:56:45] At the end of the call, the friend said that I'm actually building the same thing in the same space.

[00:56:53] And perhaps you can, you know, take the solution from me and you can be my customer or something of that sort.

[00:56:59] So, at that point, I think we were, you know, like, we were quite enraged, right?

[00:57:04] You know, this is…

[00:57:05] It's such a telling story.

[00:57:06] It speaks about what it means to be a founder even.

[00:57:10] So, you know, here, you know, he's taken…

[00:57:13] We've said everything, all our ideas have gone.

[00:57:15] But where we are today, they built nothing, right?

[00:57:19] So, I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's what execution is what matters.

[00:57:24] And quite frankly, if we did not hold the team accountable to really high standards of not just work, but also execution, we would not be where we are at today, right?

[00:57:36] So, we've got this cadence of, like, every Thursday, we do a demo day, right?

[00:57:41] Where everyone in the team…

[00:57:42] So, our team is quite tiny and tight.

[00:57:44] We are about a 12-member team.

[00:57:46] And everyone comes together and says, here's what I've shipped this week, okay?

[00:57:50] This is my output this week.

[00:57:54] And if you've done nothing, please put up a blank slide.

[00:57:58] Very clear.

[00:57:59] We actually kind of, you know, say the shippers ship, quitters quit.

[00:58:02] So, if you want to be in a startup, if you want…

[00:58:05] What it takes is insane execution rigor.

[00:58:09] It's companies that have this rigor that will make it.

[00:58:13] And it's hard, right?

[00:58:14] It's really hard.

[00:58:15] Like, you've seen this.

[00:58:17] I mean, you've been, like, employee number one at so many of these companies, Gary.

[00:58:20] No, it's really, really hard.

[00:58:23] And I think the base at which you build is, like, the single determinant of success at any scale.

[00:58:30] Yeah.

[00:58:30] Honestly, right?

[00:58:31] I mean, I'm always so amazed by, like, companies like Figma or Zoho or, you know, one of these folks, right?

[00:58:38] I mean, that…

[00:58:38] Because you know that as you scale, I mean, it's harder to align.

[00:58:41] It's harder to get consensus.

[00:58:42] It's harder to, like, move things and so on and so forth.

[00:58:45] And yet, almost every couple of quarters, I mean, they're shipping at their scale, right?

[00:58:50] Which is insane.

[00:58:51] I'm hugely inspired by Ramp in the US, right?

[00:58:53] And they're shipping with small teams, like, four-member teams.

[00:58:56] And they're shipping beautiful products and at a high velocity.

[00:59:00] And I think this is what is hard for startups, right?

[00:59:02] You have to ship fast.

[00:59:04] You have to get it right.

[00:59:06] And it has to solve user needs.

[00:59:08] And it has to do so beautifully.

[00:59:10] And that's where the challenge is.

[00:59:12] And that's where the hard part is.

[00:59:13] And that's actually where the fun is.

[00:59:15] Yeah, there is.

[00:59:15] I mean, absolutely.

[00:59:17] Absolutely.

[00:59:19] Figma had this slides or slides, whatever they call that, right?

[00:59:22] I mean, that entire thing from, I think, idea to product release was basically like a few months in the making.

[00:59:31] Yeah.

[00:59:31] I mean, which is just mind-blowing.

[00:59:34] Because if you think about the number of users, you know, something like that impacts.

[00:59:38] Yeah.

[00:59:38] Right?

[00:59:38] Right?

[00:59:39] I mean, if you're going to put that through your conventional, you know, committee after committee and meeting after meeting and whatnot.

[00:59:45] I mean, it's probably never going to see the light of day, right?

[00:59:48] Maybe you'll gradually use it, Carrie.

[00:59:49] Yeah.

[00:59:51] So, in general, it's been like topsy-durvy times, right?

[00:59:55] I mean, for the startup ecosystem as such, right?

[01:00:00] 2021, like we had like an epic bull run, right?

[01:00:03] Everything went up.

[01:00:04] And then thereafter, the market corrected and so on and so forth.

[01:00:08] So, 2021, the story was all about growth, growth, growth.

[01:00:11] And then, you know, last couple of years has always been about, you know, profits and like, God forbid, like cash flow and stuff like that.

[01:00:20] But things that, you know, startups normally don't like discuss as such or like aspire at this stage of the journey, right?

[01:00:27] So, like when you are thinking about these things as a founder, you know, or for founders who are listening to this and perhaps watching this, what is your advice to keep an even keel and kind of execute?

[01:00:39] The way I think about it is that everything is a linear programming problem, right?

[01:00:44] So, there is a certain reality of the equation and situation that you're in and you have to optimize basis the cards you're dealt.

[01:00:52] So, if you are building in this environment, right?

[01:00:55] You know, it's a completely different environment from what was, like you said, in 2021, where, you know, it's funny, like we were speaking to some investors and they were saying that the bar for Series A is just significantly higher.

[01:01:09] So, earlier, just having an MVP was good enough to get you past a Series A.

[01:01:14] Right?

[01:01:15] Now, they want to see, you know, hundreds and thousands of, if not lakhs of users on your platform successfully using the product before they will even talk to you.

[01:01:28] For going beyond a Series B and Series C, you have to start showing significant revenue and profit and in some cases profit.

[01:01:34] So, the bar every stage has gone up.

[01:01:38] So, to your point, building in this context or everything has to be within a context.

[01:01:43] So, this is the context that you have.

[01:01:44] And this is your resources.

[01:01:46] This is how you have to deploy them.

[01:01:47] And you have to make it work for you.

[01:01:48] I will.

[01:01:49] Go ahead.

[01:01:50] No, finish it.

[01:01:50] So, I was just going to say that it's, you know, always operate with the mindset that this is it.

[01:01:57] And then, you know, if things go right, then you always have a second shot at it.

[01:02:02] Yeah.

[01:02:03] And I was just going to add that actually Anki is someone who actually focuses a lot on revenue and monetization.

[01:02:09] So, we've been, I think, focused on creating revenue from day one.

[01:02:14] So, it's not just about building a product, bringing in users, but it's also how do we, is this even, is there value in this?

[01:02:22] Because if there's value, then somebody's going to pay for it, which is how we make money.

[01:02:26] Right?

[01:02:26] And that equation has always been very, very core from day one.

[01:02:30] I think we've focused on it like no questions asked.

[01:02:34] You know, founders, you know, sometimes, you know, like you said, the historical sort of knowledge was that, you know, get users, build, build, build, build, build.

[01:02:43] And then, eventually, we'll figure out how to monetize.

[01:02:45] Monetization is not a tap that's sitting in your office.

[01:02:47] That, you know, one day you decide, okay, tomorrow I will monetize and turn it on and water will come.

[01:02:50] No, it's not like that.

[01:02:52] You have to bake it in.

[01:02:53] You have to bake it in from day one.

[01:02:55] Are people willing to pay for your service?

[01:02:57] Only when monetization levers are being tugged is when you will know that does your product really have engagement?

[01:03:03] Does it really have usage?

[01:03:04] Do people really care for it?

[01:03:06] Right?

[01:03:06] Otherwise, it's just a toy.

[01:03:08] Yeah.

[01:03:09] Yeah.

[01:03:09] And I think that's something we've been very mindful about.

[01:03:12] About building, baking in revenue and monetization levers into the product.

[01:03:17] Because otherwise, there's no point.

[01:03:18] Right?

[01:03:19] Like why we, I mean, then you're building a product that's great.

[01:03:21] It's a hobby, right?

[01:03:22] And it's okay.

[01:03:23] But that's not a meaningful business.

[01:03:25] And that's not a large business then.

[01:03:27] Right.

[01:03:27] Okay.

[01:03:29] Coming to almost the end of the podcast,

[01:03:31] I've kept you guys here for longer than you had budgeted for.

[01:03:34] What are you most excited about that's coming up at Infinite Club in the next 18 months?

[01:03:40] I think just opening up the whole gambit of wealth management products for our users.

[01:03:47] Right?

[01:03:48] We've started out with startup investing, angel investing, private equity.

[01:03:53] And I think just how do we go from there to everything that you need to manage your wealth?

[01:03:59] We've just launched a mutual fund tracker.

[01:04:01] We've got more coming.

[01:04:03] And the way we think about this is, look, if there are products that already serve the needs,

[01:04:08] we don't want to rebuild them.

[01:04:09] Right?

[01:04:10] Like we will, yeah, just go ahead, use them.

[01:04:12] But if there are opportunities in wealth creation, wealth building, wealth management,

[01:04:17] then we will figure out a way to bring them to you via Infinite.

[01:04:22] Right?

[01:04:23] So that's that.

[01:04:24] And, you know, there are enough tools in the market.

[01:04:26] So that's great.

[01:04:28] The way we think about this is like diversify your wealth, not your tools.

[01:04:32] Right?

[01:04:33] So then we're just constantly trying to figure out in your core needs, how do we serve you

[01:04:39] and help you understand your portfolio and your core wealth products better?

[01:04:45] And at the same time, how do we open up newer avenues of investment, whether it's through

[01:04:49] access or opportunity or even just democratizing.

[01:04:53] I mean, I hate using the word democratizing, but, you know, just reducing ticket sizes.

[01:04:57] Right?

[01:04:58] Yeah.

[01:04:58] I think we were very clear that startup investing is not the end game.

[01:05:02] Right?

[01:05:02] I think that's a starting point because we believe that this was an asset class that

[01:05:06] our cohort of investors really cared about.

[01:05:09] They historically did not have access to it.

[01:05:11] So we said, okay, we'll start here, but eventually kind of get, you know, the entire gambit of,

[01:05:16] you know, wealth management all, you know, under our umbrella.

[01:05:18] So that's where, you know, where we're headed.

[01:05:20] We're headed towards becoming a, you know, a full-fledged wealth management product.

[01:05:24] But I think what we are most excited by immediately, I think it's something that we've solved from

[01:05:30] in a very, very innovative fashion.

[01:05:32] Is the thing we, earlier we spoke about how the correct way of building a startup is having

[01:05:37] a portfolio approach.

[01:05:38] You know, there should be no different.

[01:05:40] You should not be just, you know, ad hoc making, you know, investments.

[01:05:44] Right?

[01:05:44] So we've launched this product called Moneyball.

[01:05:46] We've done one sort of season or one pilot, as we call it.

[01:05:50] It essentially is a way to access quality deal flow, invest alongside super angels who

[01:05:58] have the deal flow, who have access to the top founders, right?

[01:06:02] And invest alongside them.

[01:06:04] And also our ticket sizes, which are significantly smaller than what you would have to make if

[01:06:08] you had to, you know, just invest in one company.

[01:06:10] So that's something we're super, super excited by.

[01:06:13] And yeah, I think.

[01:06:14] Awesome.

[01:06:18] So, okay.

[01:06:20] We typically end with this question, which is what books or podcasts you recommend?

[01:06:26] Joy, I know.

[01:06:27] I mean, this is like the ideal person to ask this question to.

[01:06:30] I mean, because she reads what, I think 40 or 50 books a year.

[01:06:33] God knows.

[01:06:34] Oh my God.

[01:06:35] More, but don't eat.

[01:06:36] No, I'm just kidding.

[01:06:38] So, okay.

[01:06:39] Your recent favorites, what would you recommend to our audience?

[01:06:41] Oh.

[01:06:42] Of startup operators?

[01:06:44] Wow.

[01:06:44] That's a good question.

[01:06:45] I think my, my, actually, this is by far my favorite book of all time.

[01:06:49] It's the, you know, game of tennis.

[01:06:52] I don't know what it was called.

[01:06:55] It's just talks, it actually talks about how do you play tennis, right?

[01:06:59] And it talks about how to use like what your coach and you emulate the coach and all

[01:07:05] that, but I've also found it to be incredibly helpful to even just think like, think about

[01:07:10] your mindset when you go into any game, right?

[01:07:16] Where things are at high stakes, it's a high stakes game.

[01:07:19] You've got to like bring your best self and how do you also coach yourself to continuously

[01:07:24] do better.

[01:07:26] So, yeah.

[01:07:27] In a game of tennis.

[01:07:29] I think that's what it's called.

[01:07:30] Interesting.

[01:07:31] I'm in the spotlight and I've forgotten.

[01:07:33] Okay.

[01:07:34] You might have to.

[01:07:36] What about you?

[01:07:36] Books or podcasts?

[01:07:38] Both actually.

[01:07:39] I like both.

[01:07:40] So, in terms of podcasts, I'm really into like, you know, longevity and fitness.

[01:07:46] So, I watch a lot of content over there.

[01:07:47] But the book that I'm currently reading, I'm not as much of a volatius read as Joy is.

[01:07:53] Nobody is.

[01:07:55] Actually, I know one other person.

[01:07:57] But though I kind of take my time with books.

[01:08:01] Sometimes I read them just a few chapters.

[01:08:04] Sometimes I read them.

[01:08:04] I abandon them.

[01:08:05] I don't kind of go cold to cover.

[01:08:07] I'm not reading.

[01:08:08] I think that I'm currently reading is called the happiness hypothesis.

[01:08:12] And I really, really like that.

[01:08:13] Interesting.

[01:08:14] It really helps you think of happiness as not a destination, but as a state of being that

[01:08:20] you can sort of embody individually.

[01:08:22] I love that.

[01:08:23] I think specifically, you know, being a founder is, you know, like the Nvidia Honda said, like

[01:08:29] chewing glass.

[01:08:31] So, when he said that, I was like, how does it?

[01:08:34] But no.

[01:08:35] So, how do you find that?

[01:08:38] You know, that the moment of balance and calm.

[01:08:41] So, I think that book has really been a great home.

[01:08:45] You know, I want to add something to this, which is something I stick to a lot of people

[01:08:49] about.

[01:08:50] It's so important for us to astound us to also read fiction.

[01:08:53] Yeah.

[01:08:54] I think in general.

[01:08:57] I mean, that's one of my pet peeves.

[01:08:58] I mean, you can see by my reaction that I have strong feelings about that.

[01:09:02] I think it's just too much of these frameworks and principles and God knows what.

[01:09:06] So, you know, your imagination and creativity really fly.

[01:09:09] Yeah.

[01:09:10] And that does not happen unless you just like immerse yourself into a different world and

[01:09:16] allow yourself to empathize.

[01:09:18] Just like feel and like imagine those vibes.

[01:09:21] So, I find that whenever I meet people, they always ask me what books am I reading.

[01:09:27] And we always look for a non-fiction.

[01:09:30] Do you read that?

[01:09:31] Do you see a non-fiction?

[01:09:32] Yeah, I do.

[01:09:33] Do you see a non-fiction?

[01:09:34] I think so.

[01:09:35] Do you know what?

[01:09:35] Some of these are just blog posts, right?

[01:09:37] Which have been printed into like 500 pages.

[01:09:41] But fiction is so much more needed as startup founders, as people who work in the creative

[01:09:50] space.

[01:09:51] Yeah.

[01:09:51] We have to imagine new things.

[01:09:53] Yeah.

[01:09:54] Just, I do want to just call that out.

[01:09:56] Absolutely.

[01:09:57] More fiction.

[01:09:59] Whether it's part of the kind of fiction.

[01:10:01] Yeah.

[01:10:01] No judgments there.

[01:10:03] But just let that imagination fly.

[01:10:06] I read a lot of children's books.

[01:10:08] Very few people know this.

[01:10:10] It's like my one kept secret, but I do read a lot of children's books.

[01:10:13] Yeah.

[01:10:15] Just a lot of children's books.

[01:10:17] Because I love how, like, there was this book that talked about grief.

[01:10:21] And I loved how these girls and the fox talked about grief.

[01:10:26] And I said, wow, what a hard concept.

[01:10:29] But simplify it for a child.

[01:10:32] Right.

[01:10:33] Just, and I love how that happens.

[01:10:36] Yeah.

[01:10:36] Like, I love being given its work.

[01:10:38] Jerry Frasier.

[01:10:39] Like, those are the usual.

[01:10:40] And, so, like, if, you know, I said, well, I wonder if I saw it, I don't have the book.

[01:10:41] Like, there are some books.

[01:10:41] But, yeah.