High Performance Recruiting w/Trent Cotton

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Recruitment Flex with Serge and Shelly, I'm Serge. And I'm Shelly and we

[00:00:11] talk all things recruitment starting right now. Bonjour and welcome to The Recruitment

[00:00:19] Flex. Shelly, we've had some great guests already this year and I'm excited to bring

[00:00:23] on this guest. So how about you introduce them? I would love to. Very pleased to welcome to

[00:00:28] the show Trent Cotton, who's the VP of Talent and Culture at Hatch Works and author of High

[00:00:36] Performance Recruiting. Trent, welcome to the show. Thank you. Glad to be here. So Trent,

[00:00:41] just to kick things off and for those who maybe don't know who you are, can you just

[00:00:47] give us a little glimpse into who is Trent and also your role at Hatch Works? Sure. So

[00:00:55] we'll start with the easy one, which is my role at Hatch Works. Vice President of

[00:01:00] Talent and Culture is a fancy title, but I'm responsible for the people function of it.

[00:01:05] I've got a great partner, my BFF at work, Kathleen, who is over people operation. So

[00:01:10] I always tell people I have the fun part of HR and she does all the stuff that she considers

[00:01:13] fun, which is like payroll and total rewards. We work together on policy, but she does a

[00:01:18] lot of the heavy lifting. So I handle the talent. So everything from hello to how we develop

[00:01:23] them, to how we continue to challenge them, then all of the strategies that go in that

[00:01:28] little ball of wax that changes daily. If I would have had this job probably 10 years

[00:01:33] ago, I've not seen it would be easy, but it would be easier. There's so many different

[00:01:37] variables that kind of affect how do you retain and develop top talent now. That's just in

[00:01:42] the US. We also have Latamp. So it is multi-dimensional, different by country. It makes it very challenging.

[00:01:49] For me, I have ADD. So I like to be challenged. I can focus on 26 things and actually get

[00:01:55] one done. At the end of the day, it increases my chances of being somewhat successful. As

[00:01:59] far as if I had to describe my approach to HR, I got into HR because I hated working with

[00:02:06] HR professionals, especially recruiters. I was a banker, manage, different banking functions

[00:02:13] from commercial to mortgage. And how I get so frustrated with recruiters, it would just send

[00:02:18] over a resume of someone who knew how to spell sales, but knew nothing about the finance

[00:02:22] market. I did a career pivot whenever my builder was one and took a contractor recruiter role,

[00:02:29] had about six or seven months of the entire recruiting department telling me I'll never

[00:02:34] make it because I don't know HR. And about a year later, three of them were reporting

[00:02:38] to me because I did something different. I knew how to speak business and not HRE's.

[00:02:44] I learned the HRE's. I like to challenge things. I don't like to fit them all. So as soon as

[00:02:48] I start feeling like I'm blending in, I go and I find a way to be a little bit different.

[00:02:54] So I'm going to bring you back, if I could, for just a sec, talk a bit more about what

[00:03:00] the core business of HatchWorks is for our audience.

[00:03:03] All right. So we build technical solutions for clients. Let's just take ABC Company or

[00:03:08] AT&T. They come in and they want to build this technology solution. And so they'll come

[00:03:12] to us and we go through the discovery aspect of what's the real problem that we're trying

[00:03:17] to solve, create a plan, and then create the product and work with them to deployment.

[00:03:23] The beauty of ours is that we can do it from two different sides. So a lot of people are

[00:03:27] familiar with Offshore using China, India, which is great. It's a great talent over there

[00:03:33] and it's great for the price point. The negative side of that is if you're running a true agile

[00:03:38] shop, you can't batch process for people that are 12 hours ahead or 12 hours behind you.

[00:03:43] So having that nearshore role in the same time schedule and there's also a little bit

[00:03:48] better cultural affinity in Latin America. They understand the US market, they understand

[00:03:53] the needs and I love all of our employees, but there's just something very refreshing

[00:03:59] with our lat down employees because they take great pride in the work that they do.

[00:04:04] And we're also doubling down on AI. So we want 10% of our revenue this year to come from some type

[00:04:11] of AI project, AI influenced opportunity, and we're also measuring our operational efficiencies.

[00:04:17] Still not quite sure how that fits in HR, but I'm leading kind of that wig for the organizations.

[00:04:24] It's really hard for me to describe exactly what I do because I do whatever's necessary.

[00:04:28] We're a high growth company and that's what you do whenever you're in this kind of role.

[00:04:32] So you have people assigned to different clients, right?

[00:04:36] And what does talent acquisition look in that way? Do you hire for projects or do you

[00:04:42] just use the people you have on your bench or a mixture of boat?

[00:04:46] Mixture, it's a mixture. If we have a bench, we want to try and get them placed first.

[00:04:50] We're not your typical body shop of going, "Hey, the project's over, it sucks for you."

[00:04:55] We try to hire for the project today and the talent that we will need for tomorrow.

[00:04:59] So that way we can keep them retained. Our retention last year was 98.5, which is unheard of.

[00:05:06] A lot of that is because of the quality of managers that we have that continue to develop

[00:05:11] and retain our employees. But I think a lot of it too is my team, we really try to look at today

[00:05:17] and tomorrow and really put forth those candidates and it's served us well.

[00:05:23] Okay. So then tie everything together for us.

[00:05:26] We need a little ribbon on top because you've got the most fascinating journey.

[00:05:31] And you've written several books, critically acclaimed, sprint recruiting, and then, of course,

[00:05:39] high performance recruiting the seven traits. Talk a bit about your inspiration of writing this book.

[00:05:46] In college, I worked full-time as a banker, I went to school full-time.

[00:05:52] And I would have to read all these books from all these people and all the different subjects

[00:05:57] that I took. And I just set a personal goal. I said, "I want to write one book whenever I get

[00:06:02] to wherever my destination is and position myself as an SME." I did it once and I was like,

[00:06:07] "I'm not going to settle. I'll just do it."

[00:06:08] once I wanted to do it another time. So hopefully two is enough. The sprint

[00:06:12] recruiting actually came as a result of just people reaching out and going, Hey,

[00:06:17] I'm running into this problem. Do you run into it? And I go, yeah, this is how

[00:06:21] we're solving it. And I think the first podcast I went on was with Ben

[00:06:25] Ubaix. And he had to convince me to get on there. He goes, you don't strike me

[00:06:29] as someone that gets embarrassed. I said, I don't, but I've never really been

[00:06:32] on a podcast. I just kind of talk about what I know. There's no rhyme or reason

[00:06:36] to it. And then just over time, people kept going, Hey, can you come on? And can

[00:06:40] you talk about clients would say, Hey, can you come and consult us on how to do

[00:06:44] it? And I just said, Okay, this might be my first thing. And so I took a stab at

[00:06:49] it. And threw it out there and sent a couple of people over to it, didn't

[00:06:53] think anything of it. Again, it was a personal goal. If I can help people

[00:06:56] great, and it just took off more than I expected, which is good, because I can

[00:07:02] tell you, if I got hired tomorrow at a large organization, they said, we want

[00:07:07] you to run recruiting operations, the way that we've always done it and make

[00:07:10] it better at the client. I'm not going back to that chaos. I'm not going back

[00:07:15] to where I'm managing a daycare and not going on the offense and saying, how do

[00:07:19] we attract and retain the top talent? I was telling you in the green room that

[00:07:25] I wish I had read this book when I was a practitioner on a daily basis, because

[00:07:31] there were so many actionable tactical items, which for a lot of us, it's great

[00:07:36] to have the concepts is great to have the big picture. But also we're looking

[00:07:40] for some tactical elements that can help us. I was really interested in a

[00:07:45] couple of things that you wrote in there. And if we judge by the title of the

[00:07:49] book, high performance recruiting, the seven traits, seven environments, and

[00:07:53] the seven leadership styles, I wanted to kick off with the seven traits. What

[00:07:59] are the traits and characteristics of a high performance recruiter? And let me

[00:08:04] qualify this because I've already been asked a couple of times. Is this

[00:08:08] scientifically proven? I'm like, God, no, there's not a science that takes time to

[00:08:12] understand what the hell recruiting is all about. So no, it's not scientifically

[00:08:15] proven. This is just based off of 20 years of experience and leveraging some

[00:08:20] of my friends in the market that I greatly respect and said, Hey, how do you

[00:08:24] feel about this? There's a little bit of a collaborative effort. So I'm not going

[00:08:27] to get into all the seven. I'll talk about I call it the trifecta. So if I'm

[00:08:31] interviewing a recruiting candidate, and they have these three things, I'll

[00:08:34] hire them on the spot. The first one is adaptability. I'm highly adaptable,

[00:08:40] sometimes too adaptable. So sometimes I have to hire someone to keep me out of

[00:08:44] the clouds. But in this market, things change so much. Yeah, pandemic. Let's

[00:08:51] hire everybody back. Oh, crap, we released over half of our recruiters. Let's

[00:08:55] hire the recruiters back and then try to get our things staffed. The great

[00:08:58] recession, the what is it quit? I can't say those two words together. The quiet

[00:09:02] quitting. That's why I'm quitting. And then now we have AI that comes in and

[00:09:06] says, huh, you think that was a change weight. So I think that highly adaptive

[00:09:10] recruiters, they're going to find ways and they're not going to complain about

[00:09:14] the pitch that was thrown to them. They're going to swing. So adaptability,

[00:09:18] absolutely. And next, right behind that, they're almost so dependent is

[00:09:24] intellectually curious. A lot of leaders have to become accustomed with their

[00:09:29] team asking them, why? This is an I'm weird. If I go into a room with my team

[00:09:34] and say, this is what we're going to do. And none of them ask why I'm concerned.

[00:09:37] For a couple of reasons. One, I want intellectually curious people,

[00:09:42] intellectually curious recruiters want to understand the why they want to

[00:09:47] understand the how they're the ones that are going to go in and say, okay,

[00:09:50] hiring manager, you're giving me this job. What importance does it have in

[00:09:53] the organization? What me through a day in the life of? And the reason they're

[00:09:56] asking that is because they want to be able to better understand how to sell

[00:09:59] the role, but also they're developing their search strain by getting those

[00:10:02] answers to those questions. So it's almost like it's feeding their brain and on

[00:10:07] the other side of it, they're already developing an execution plan. So if you

[00:10:10] have someone that's highly adaptable, you can throw anything at them, they're

[00:10:13] going to find a way to succeed. And then you have someone that's intellectually

[00:10:17] curious, it's going to constantly iterate on how to do it better. And then you

[00:10:20] throw in grit, which is like tenacity, these people, they will not relinquish a

[00:10:27] position until it's not like they're just not going to give up. And I like to

[00:10:32] tell the story about the grit aspect of it is someone doesn't look at the wall.

[00:10:39] They get excited about how many ways to get around through up over that wall.

[00:10:44] That's where they get their energy. So you combine those three, get the hell out

[00:10:48] of it, just let them do what they need to do. And that's why there's seven

[00:10:52] leadership styles. So if I have someone who has got those three, my job as a

[00:10:57] leader is to be a shepherd, keep them in the guardrails, keep them in the

[00:11:00] developed, make sure that they're nourished, but then just follow up.

[00:11:03] How do you find them and how do you measure this during interviews?

[00:11:08] Intellectually curious will ask me more questions than I ask them.

[00:11:12] And they'll unpack it. Like if I feel like I am being interviewed by

[00:11:17] Barbara Walters with one of the candidates, they're hired.

[00:11:20] But they're making me think and go, no, why the hell do we do it that way?

[00:11:23] That makes me really attracted to them because they're going to make

[00:11:26] an organization exponentially better and more efficient.

[00:11:30] Adaptability is kind of hard. You really just have to ask questions.

[00:11:36] And I am really big about inflection and word count whenever I'm talking to

[00:11:40] someone, any candidate, but especially recruiters. So if I ask them, tell me

[00:11:45] about a challenging project, you know, one of those behavioral questions.

[00:11:49] And their inflection changes, you can hear them smiling. You can hear that

[00:11:56] excitement and go, okay, they're adaptable. They like this kind of stuff.

[00:11:59] They want a challenge. And then the grit, it is hard to measure.

[00:12:04] You can hear it kind of salt and peppered out, but the other two kind of

[00:12:07] jump out at me. But yeah, I've had, God, I've had probably six or seven

[00:12:13] recruiters that I've worked with that have all three.

[00:12:17] So you talk about environments and that's an interesting one to me as well because different

[00:12:40] recruiters can excel in certain environments and not excel in other environments. Give me

[00:12:46] an idea of the concept of what environments are high performing recruiters really drive

[00:12:52] into. We talked a little bit about this in the green room. One of my favorites that I

[00:12:57] wrote about was the playgrounds. Take yourself back to elementary school and everyone looked

[00:13:01] forward except for those of us that were bullied. Everyone looked forward to recess.

[00:13:07] And I remember I took my daughter back to her elementary school. This was a little while

[00:13:11] back. And I was just, I was looking at the monkey bars and they had these buried tires

[00:13:15] that she could walk over. And all I saw initially was monkey bars and tires and a swing set.

[00:13:22] But then I took myself back to first grade and the monkey bars were not monkey bars.

[00:13:26] They were a ladder that had fallen between the valley that was protecting me from lava.

[00:13:29] By creativity was a source of kind of transforming the world around being to see it how it could

[00:13:36] be. And I think that creating that kind of an environment especially in recruiting where

[00:13:41] we get so processed, focusing on this is the way that we've always done it. If a leader

[00:13:45] is able to create that playground to where those monkey bars can be something completely

[00:13:49] different, they're going to transform how they're looking at that process. And always

[00:13:54] the candidate is the one that benefits from it because they're putting their self in

[00:13:58] the mind of the candidate going, how can I make this better? And I'm not going to look

[00:14:01] at what reality is today. I'm going to create that reality. The other is small tactical

[00:14:06] teams. So I've run large organizations before. And I found the performance of the team worked

[00:14:13] so much better whenever you put them on a column SWAT teams, teams of five or six, and they're

[00:14:19] able to quickly get together and solve a problem. So it saved me time, but then they

[00:14:24] were able to bring how they solve that problem to the larger group. So it was like filtering

[00:14:28] some of these best practices. But also I could give them an entire business unit and say,

[00:14:33] here's your client, you own them. And they took ownership of it. They didn't feel like

[00:14:37] they needed to go through this huge hierarchy. They solved problems and created solutions

[00:14:41] on their own. And then the last one, I guess my other favorite is the hive. I'm a nerd.

[00:14:47] So I study stuff and I've studied bees like what makes them tick. And everyone knows their

[00:14:52] role. No one challenges the role, not from a stay in your lane, but it's this is my task.

[00:14:58] And here's how it relates to the other person. And they have this collective mindset that's

[00:15:02] all toward the common goal and they move accordingly. And whenever they're thrown a situation,

[00:15:08] they're able to quickly communicate with each other and figure out a way around it. And

[00:15:11] that's why they've continued to evolve and stay around. And I find that high performance

[00:15:16] teams are like that, but if you foster that environment, they just work together. And

[00:15:21] as a leader, it's fun to watch. Here's a problem. I want you to solve it in two weeks

[00:15:24] later. They're like, Hey, we've got this done. We've already tested it. Here's a prototype.

[00:15:28] I love that. It's fun. It's fun.

[00:15:31] Interesting thing you said in there when we were talking about the team, say I had a team

[00:15:35] of 20 recruiters, would you separate them into say four different teams? And in some

[00:15:43] ways competing against them. And if we look at the model of say a sales team, this is

[00:15:47] very common, right? Purposely or not, they're going to compete against each other based on

[00:15:52] the metrics. Which I've never really heard that approach in recruiting before. I like

[00:15:55] it a lot. It makes a lot of sense that I actually get to one of the other seven traits is that

[00:16:00] they're incredibly goal oriented. So if you play it, where there's healthy competition,

[00:16:05] the sky is the limit. You do have to monitor and make sure that it's very jovial, picking

[00:16:10] around with each other. No one gets their feelings hurt. But I do find that competition

[00:16:17] to always want to outdo each other. Again, your client benefits, the team morale, benefits,

[00:16:23] and then ultimately your candidate is also benefiting from that because the other thing

[00:16:27] was small and tactical teams. When they find a candidate, they like to share it on the team,

[00:16:32] and they can't find a role for it, they share it with the other team. Because still that

[00:16:34] high comes in, we still want to succeed as a team, even though we're in our unit.

[00:16:40] You mentioned high performing recruiters can be a pain and you ask to manage. What do

[00:16:45] you need to be a leader for these types or recruiters? There is, I don't know if you've

[00:16:52] ever had these moments where you're trying to take something and put it in a way that

[00:16:57] everyone would be able to relate to it, you call it a stroke of genius, but you're looking

[00:17:01] and go, God, I created that. This was the seven leadership styles I was trying to figure

[00:17:06] out like a visual way of explaining this is when you use which one. For me, I created

[00:17:13] a quadrant, a four quadrant. On the y-axis, you have the intensity of a situation, and

[00:17:21] then on the x-axis, you have the conflict. Conflict could be internal conflict or internal

[00:17:29] resistance. It could be conflict with your manager. It could be conflict being caused

[00:17:33] by what's going on in the market. I referenced the shepherd earlier, that is low conflict

[00:17:38] and high intensity, meaning you still want to keep those involved and engaged, but it's

[00:17:45] not because of some kind of a conflict. Whereas if you have high conflict, high intensity,

[00:17:51] you need the negotiator, because the negotiator is going to come in and say, "Okay, let's

[00:17:54] calm everybody down, but we need to kill hostages. Let's talk about a nice, easy, equitable

[00:18:00] way." But then in the circle, you've got the coach. The coach, I'm not a sports person

[00:18:07] for those in the US. If you want to know how much of a sports person I'm not, up until

[00:18:11] 15 years ago, I thought there was a 60-yard line in football. I have no cognition. I am

[00:18:16] not in any way shape or form an Alabama fan, but I can respect their coach from a business,

[00:18:23] building a team, leadership. He is who I get.

[00:18:26] used as the coach because he's able to relate with his players.

[00:18:29] He knows their different strengths.

[00:18:31] He knows when to push them.

[00:18:32] He knows when to support them.

[00:18:34] He knows when to pull back.

[00:18:35] You have to know your team.

[00:18:37] You have to be able to assess the environment and then figure out which

[00:18:40] leadership style is going to be the most appropriate for all variables.

[00:18:44] Here's something I am endlessly curious about myself.

[00:18:48] And that is the recruitment process improvements.

[00:18:51] And I would love to hear you talk a bit about what approach

[00:18:56] should they take when they take a look at their process.

[00:18:59] And I'm talking like, what are you doing before you need the people?

[00:19:02] I'd love to see end to end.

[00:19:05] So tell me, what are some of the things that a TA later should approach

[00:19:09] when optimizing their process?

[00:19:12] There's a quote that I love by William Deming.

[00:19:14] It says, in God we trust everyone else must bring data.

[00:19:18] So I go with the data.

[00:19:20] I'll give you an example.

[00:19:22] Sprint recruiting.

[00:19:23] It was 2017, I actually reached the point in recruiting where I was like,

[00:19:27] I don't think I can fix this.

[00:19:28] I'm done.

[00:19:28] I'd never signed up to be a daycare leader.

[00:19:31] That's what I feel like I'm leading.

[00:19:32] And I got to figure out a way to do it.

[00:19:35] If I'm going to stay, I've got to commit.

[00:19:36] I've got to find a way to do it.

[00:19:37] So I went through agile training and a couple of other things, kicking

[00:19:41] and screaming by the way, my CHRO came and told me, she goes, I got

[00:19:45] three classes are going to be four weeks for you.

[00:19:47] And I said, what in the hell did you think?

[00:19:49] Like, no, absolutely not.

[00:19:51] But I came out of it going, okay, if this is how

[00:19:53] Apple and Facebook and Google are able to give me as a client or a

[00:19:57] user products and services that I've used that are completely ingrained and

[00:20:02] they do it quick and they do it efficient.

[00:20:04] There's got to be a way that I can figure this out with recruiting.

[00:20:07] So the first thing I did, you know, to your process question is, I went

[00:20:10] into the ATS and I downloaded the candidate journey for my entire division.

[00:20:14] And let me preface with my minor in college was financing statistics.

[00:20:19] So I love numbers.

[00:20:20] So what is the data really trying to tell me?

[00:20:22] It is the first time that I have ever charted something out and the bottlenecks

[00:20:27] were visible and it was with the hiring manager.

[00:20:30] I measured the number of days a candidate spent through the entire

[00:20:33] part of the journey or time to fill at the time was 67 days.

[00:20:36] Three and a half weeks of that was because we're waiting on feedback

[00:20:41] for the manager.

[00:20:41] I said, there's a symptom of a problem I've got to fix.

[00:20:44] And so whenever I put in the four principles of sprint recruiting and

[00:20:49] we started actually charting in two weeks sprints, so not looking at over

[00:20:53] the last year, I can make minor iterations every two weeks.

[00:20:57] We started looking at it and holding both sides accountable.

[00:21:01] So I was on the phone with our client during our pre sprint call asking them,

[00:21:05] okay, you got 400 positions.

[00:21:06] I've got 15 members.

[00:21:07] There's no way in the world that we're going to get those filled in the next

[00:21:10] two weeks, but which ones are the most important?

[00:21:11] So I'm forcing them in that funnel.

[00:21:13] So next two weeks, here's my time box.

[00:21:16] What do you want me to do?

[00:21:17] And then now that I've got those 20 positions, I'm giving you 400 points.

[00:21:21] I want you to assign a point value and we're going to work them in order.

[00:21:24] The next is I'm going to limit the number of candidates in each stage of

[00:21:27] the process.

[00:21:28] Once we hit that limit on that one job, I'm moving on to the next one in

[00:21:31] priority.

[00:21:31] So it creates that drumbeat for me.

[00:21:33] And oh, by the way, the last one 48 hours feedback.

[00:21:37] I send you a candidate in the middle.

[00:21:39] I'm tracking from that point.

[00:21:41] And if you don't do it, there's going to be something on the report that

[00:21:44] whenever we get on the meeting, you, your boss and my team are going to say,

[00:21:47] you're not doing your end of the deal and we're going to address it.

[00:21:49] So three sprints, six weeks went from 67 days to 22.

[00:21:54] I second guessed myself.

[00:21:57] There's no way in the world that this can work this quick, but it was

[00:22:01] having that visibility and having that accountability and also actually

[00:22:05] meeting and working toward an end goal.

[00:22:07] And I had those in caps.

[00:22:08] So I could look at sprint one versus sprint two and say, we got more points.

[00:22:12] Team, what did you do?

[00:22:14] We got quicker hiring manager feedback and our meeting with the client.

[00:22:17] We're like, Hey, your feedback helped us reduce this many days.

[00:22:20] How can we make that even better?

[00:22:22] And so that's where that energy and that growth and how performance teams,

[00:22:26] they love that they want that win.

[00:22:28] So if you give them that dopamine hit, oh my God, they'll just get addicted to it.

[00:22:32] And that that's why I like about sprint recordings.

[00:22:33] It keeps that process moving.

[00:22:35] But as a leader, it's like Star Trek, the captain sits in the middle of the

[00:22:40] room, he has questions in each of the different data points, give him whatever

[00:22:44] he needs.

[00:22:45] And then he makes the decision.

[00:22:46] That's how I approach TA.

[00:22:48] I want my hands on all those different data points so that way I can run my team

[00:22:53] the most efficiently way possible to protect my team and enable my clients.

[00:22:59] I'm a little passionate about that.

[00:23:01] Sorry if it.

[00:23:02] I absolutely love it.

[00:23:04] I feel like we could probably just sit and talk about this, but let me just get

[00:23:09] clear on something you were just talking about.

[00:23:11] Where does technology fit into the picture?

[00:23:14] My experience is a lot like yours and it is you've got to look at every step

[00:23:18] in the process.

[00:23:19] And then there comes a time where maybe technology and automation, either you

[00:23:25] need to find something better, introduce it or take it out.

[00:23:29] And so I know that what you just talked about in terms of where's the bottleneck

[00:23:34] typically is human.

[00:23:37] For whatever reason, don't have our priorities straight.

[00:23:39] Recruiters taking on 60 open racks.

[00:23:42] How does anybody do anything with 60 open racks?

[00:23:45] Anyways, just talk a little bit about how technology and automation fits in.

[00:23:50] So let me give a metaphor first because there's a lot of noise about AI.

[00:23:56] I was just scrolling through LinkedIn before we joined in the span of two minutes.

[00:24:01] I found three articles that say AI is going to replace recruiters.

[00:24:04] And then three articles that said AI will never take over recruit.

[00:24:08] People really don't know.

[00:24:09] My approach to it is Ironman.

[00:24:12] So Tony Stark, fantastic entrepreneur, billionaire, very suave, has a great

[00:24:18] character, he's sexy, he's rich.

[00:24:20] What's not to like about the guy?

[00:24:22] He's a higher performer.

[00:24:23] But whenever he puts on that AI suit, he becomes a super hero.

[00:24:28] And that's my approach to AI evaluating any kind of a product is what can I

[00:24:35] Augment My Team With from a Technology Standpoint that will make them a superhero and oh by the way give them more time to focus on I don't know the human aspect of our job not just pushing this person through the process of the get all the paperwork if I can find an AI to make sure that our candidates are being tracked and have they done this have they clicked this format I will buy it all day long because I want that recruiter spending more time going okay where do you see yourself in five years and like actually listen and actually be able to tell that to the manager and help them develop a hiring plan or

[00:25:04] a development plan to me that is where AI specifically is going to enhance recruiters to being talent agents and that's what I'm so excited about there's just a lot of noise in there about how we're going to get to that point I know you like data and all that other kind of stuff that example that I gave of going in and charting and creating all the formulas and putting that out now I can go and download that file just the raw data put it in a chat GPT and say what do I need to see in this.

[00:25:34] I don't have to use that brain power I can use the brain power start pulling the threads and say okay where's the root of this issue.

[00:25:40] So I know you gave us a very relatable response here around process improvement of days to hire is there any other KPI to measure success within a recruitment process.

[00:25:56] Yes so I like to do candidate experience not at the end not hey now that you got the job and you like us it's the first five eight hours you have

[00:26:04] been seeing all the good and ugly stuff.

[00:26:06] Yeah I want to measure it from how was the application experience.

[00:26:12] How was your interview with the recruiter 48 hours did you get feedback from that recruiter how was your interview with the hiring manager you know it is absolutely gut wrenching disgusting on that one part is how many hiring managers show it late for an interview.

[00:26:28] I think your interviewer is not letting that sends me into orbit then a manager who complains if they don't get quality candidates and they treat the candidates time like it's just arbitrary.

[00:26:38] But I need data to be able to show that now I can go and say we have a problem Houston it's not me it is totally you how are we going to work on this to fix this.

[00:26:47] But if I can do that then I've got a palpable dashboard that I can look and go what's going on with my candidates how are they flowing through the process and I've take that and put that over some of the analysis that I gave a little bit earlier.

[00:26:58] Then I'm able to see they're spending a long time here and I'm seeing the scores drops of team we got to fix this.

[00:27:04] But if the scores are remaining the same then maybe that's not what I need to tackle in this sprint maybe I can put that on for the next one because right over here.

[00:27:11] This is where the data is telling me I need to get this picture is going to be game that's my favorite is looking at what is my candidate saying throughout the process.

[00:27:20] You shared that feedback or I guess that data openly within the organization or is it just that particular team you're working within that time.

[00:27:29] I love data and I like to be transparent with it because for me as a leader I gained credibility whenever my organization sees something and we in TA we don't look good and I admit it I address it and I fix it.

[00:27:43] Yeah it hurts yeah it's embarrassing but they understand that whatever problem comes up I'm not just going to be pointing at them I'm going to be looking internal and saying hey this is how we fixed it.

[00:27:53] And I'm also that way with our clients if we have a client has significant enough volume of needs that they have.

[00:27:59] I basically replicate my dashboard and I've got a demo dashboard that I can share with you if you wanted to throw it out there's people to see what I look at.

[00:28:08] Now create one just for the client so they can see exactly where we are on the ones that they said are most important what are our obstacles there's a quote that says unspoken expectations will always lead to pin up resentment.

[00:28:21] And I think if there is any problem in recruiting that statement just about sums it up I expect the hiring manager to give me feedback but I don't tell them when I expect it.

[00:28:30] Then I end up resenting them the same thing for the hiring manager but if I can set that forth with data and say here the ground rules going forward and this is how we're going to measure it.

[00:28:39] It is so much easier still tough conversations that the data is the one pulling the fingers not me I had a bad day and I'm saying my guts telling me.

[00:28:48] Shelly that you're not doing your job I can come and go Shelly not doing your job the data says let's talk about how we can look on it as partners how can we do this together.

[00:28:58] The opportunity is probably the number one criteria of success when it comes to talent acquisition pretty much anything in business.

[00:29:04] So I completely agree with that.

[00:29:06] I just want to jump back to high performance recruiting team and I'd like to start with getting your definition of what is a high performing team in talent acquisition what does that mean to you.

[00:29:20] As a leader yeah I use a gardening example I am sewing the seeds not having to pick it not having to maintain it they're doing that themselves.

[00:29:29] I just need to make sure that they have the fertile soil that they need to grow that is not in direct sign so they're not getting direct hits from a client.

[00:29:38] I'm serving as that obstacle remover and for me it's just so much more fun. I know that sounds so incredibly lame but I love seeing people approach a problem and watching their brain tick about how they're going to do it and then begin surprised by like how they did it.

[00:29:56] I take great gratification in that and I think coming to work in that kind of an environment of what are we going to conquer today.

[00:30:05] Not how are we going to survive the day how are we going to conquer this problem it's how are we going to thrive is so much more refreshing than some of the previous where I go I wonder who's going to custom me out today for something that I didn't have time to do because like

[00:30:22] it's about 60 racks and I got a process that requires me to fill out 80 pieces of paper before I can even submit them to the dam manager if I'm coming in at going okay this isn't working how are we going to work on it together incrementally as a team as a leader is just fun.

[00:30:37] Yeah, I agree. There's a lot of new talent acquisition leaders that come true to ranks right they're really good.

[00:30:44] Listen more than you speak, which is ironic in 2nd grade, Sister Carlene told me Confucius said better to be thoughtful than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I'd wish I would have listened to that a little bit more. I think as leaders, especially if you're new. There is this cognitive feeling that if you do not know what you need to do with that, I would love to know if you want to make sure that there's a better way to make sure that you don't know what you're going to do with it.

[00:31:08] I think as leaders, especially if you're new, there is this cognitive oppression in your head that you feel like you have to have the answer.

[00:31:18] Let me encourage you, you don't. You need to know how to help your team find the answer. That's where leaders are.

[00:31:26] Managers, they want to give you the answer, especially if it's an SOP-related kind of a thing.

[00:31:31] But I find that whenever someone presents me a problem on my team, I usually go, "Okay, how do you want to solve it? Let me get through there."

[00:31:39] Whenever a client brings me on the issue, "Hey, we've got this discipline thing. What do you want to do? Let me find a way to make it legal."

[00:31:45] It's a little bit more tactical and it's a little bit more consultative. I think great recruiters are great consultants.

[00:31:52] But then they get promoted to leader and somehow that just goes out the door. They get very dictatorial.

[00:31:57] There's a book called "No Rules Rule" by Reid Hoffman and I can't remember the consultant. It's about Netflix.

[00:32:05] But there's a part in there that really stuck out to me. The leaders that I worked best for always led with context, not control.

[00:32:12] Leading with context is, "Hey, we've got a meeting on Monday. I want you to show up. I need you to be in this room at 2 o'clock and I want you wearing jeans and a polo shirt."

[00:32:22] "Okay, cool. How do you get there? I don't care. Take a flight, ride your bike. I don't care. Just be in the seat."

[00:32:28] Control is, "I want you to take this flight. I want you to make sure you do this." And there are times for both.

[00:32:35] One's not better than the other. If there is a fire, I'm leading with control. We're not debating what's the best way to get out.

[00:32:42] I'm going to tell you this is how we're going to do it because I'm responsible for your safety and it's an emergency.

[00:32:46] But where are we going to eat? Leading with context. I don't want Mexican, but anything else is open.

[00:32:52] I think finding that balance and finding your own voice by listening to your team is probably the best piece of advice.

[00:33:00] I wish I would have got whenever I got into recruiting leadership.

[00:33:03] Really good advice. I think you nailed it as the first instinct is a little bit dictorial on how we manage people and it's tough to adjust that.

[00:33:11] We started off the conversation pretty much talking about adaptability and as talent acquisition, HR folks, the last four or five years, we've had to adapt pretty much every month.

[00:33:22] It seems there's been a trend or there's been something that's changed dramatically. But now I want us to think about 2024 and beyond.

[00:33:32] What's your thoughts, Trent? If you had a crystal ball, what do you think is going to be a key driver success and recruitment in 2024?

[00:33:40] I alluded to it before. I think AI, when implemented correctly, will allow recruiters to do more of the human part.

[00:33:49] And I think the candidate, of course, is going to benefit from that.

[00:33:53] Also, to recruiters, our image is going to greatly enhance because I know I've been at dinner before and I didn't tell people I was in recruiting and they're like, "God, this recruiter, they don't call me back.

[00:34:04] They don't do this. They don't do that." And it hurts my heart because I'm thinking,

[00:34:07] "I wish you knew what that recruiter is probably having a deal with." So AI and really putting the focus back on humans is going to be a way for talent advisors to really come into the room of sitting there with the client and saying, "Okay, what do you really want?"

[00:34:22] Your job description sucks. So let's write one that's better and how are we going to measure success and then backing into that search and creating talent pipelines.

[00:34:30] A lot of us just don't have time to do it, but with AI, there's a way that you can identify them, engage them, keep them updated.

[00:34:36] Sell them on your brand. All of that stuff to keep them nice and warm and interested so when you're ready to strike, they're ready to go.

[00:34:43] Trent, an episode full of fantastic advice, great knowledge sharing. We really appreciate it.

[00:34:50] For the audience, definitely go check out Trent Codden in his book. It's available everywhere, but it's free on Kindle right now, which is how I got my first copy.

[00:34:59] High performance recruiting, the seven traits, seven environments, and the seven leadership styles.

[00:35:05] Go back as well and buy Sprint recruiting. And I did see a couple of smaller books in there that I think you've written, Trent.

[00:35:12] So go check it with others as well. Trent, if anyone wants to get ahold of you, what's the best way?

[00:35:18] LinkedIn, Twitter is @TrentCodden and I've got a YouTube channel for high performance recruiting. And then the blog is sprintrecreating.com.

[00:35:29] So sometimes I'm a little too accessible, but you can get ahold of me.

[00:35:33] Perfect. Trent, such a pleasure having you in the show. Thank you for coming on.

[00:35:37] Thank you. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:35:41] [MUSIC]

[00:35:49] Shelley, let's face it, texting candidates is the easiest way to hire quicker today.

[00:35:55] But your cell phone doesn't connect to your ATS. You're sharing your personal number with strangers.

[00:36:00] It's pretty scary, right, Shelley? And it's not even legally compliant.

[00:36:05] This is where our friends at RecTechs come in. They've created simple, yet powerful text recruiting software that works with your ATS. Plus, it's designed by recruiters, for recruiters, so you know it works.

[00:36:18] To learn more and book a demo, visit www.RECTXT.com, mention the recruitment flex and get 10% off annual plans.

[00:36:30] Do you love news about LinkedIn, Indeed, Google, and just about every other recruitment tech company out there? Hell yeah, I'm Chad.

[00:36:38] I'm Cheese. We're the Chad and Cheese Podcast. All the latest recruiting news and insights are on our show.

[00:36:45] Dripping in snark and attitude. Subscribe today wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.