Sue Ingram - Handling Dramatic Hiring Managers

[00:00:00] Hello, I am Katrina Collier and as part of my mission to inspire all the people that recruit people to treat people better, I bring you The Hiring Partner Perspective Unedited podcast. Here you will hear from those hiring leaders who create true partnerships with recruiters,

[00:00:17] HR and talent acquisition because they know that it delivers a better result for the business and a better human experience. May this podcast inspire other hiring leaders to create better partnerships with their recruiters

[00:00:29] and HR, and may it inspire recruiters to create true and valuable partnerships with their hiring leaders because people make businesses succeed and people matter. So let us begin. Sue Ingram, welcome to The Hiring Partner Perspective Podcast, proudly supported by the gorgeous people at Work Drive.

[00:00:56] I am so excited to talk to you. Obviously you're my dear friend of old, but you're also a subject expert in this subject I should say. Sue Ingram, tell us what you do. Obviously I know a bit. Share.

[00:01:09] Okay, well, I'm a coach and executive coach, but more than that, I train managers in how to manage other people. I train managers in how to get extraordinary work out of perfectly ordinary people and how to have feedback conversations with people when you're telling them something that

[00:01:30] is disappointing to hear, that they don't want to hear, something like that. So it's tough conversations. You're very good at those tough conversations because you have a book called Firewell. I do indeed. I have a book called Firewell, How to Fire Stuff, so they say thank you.

[00:01:45] Though actually I think I might re-title it. How to have conversations with staff where you get resignations when that's the right answer. Because if you have a conversation in the right way, nine times out of ten you gain a resignation.

[00:02:02] Sometimes people will just sit there passively even when they know they should resign and you need to fire them. But that's more the rarity. And it's all about how you have a tough conversation and still keep good relationships with people.

[00:02:18] I mean what you really aim for is to fire someone and have them still recommend your firm as someone to go and work for. Because of the way in which they were treated. And with respect, with an opportunity to improve, with some honesty and all that kind of

[00:02:34] thing that makes a good feeling. If you achieve that then that is the ultimate goal, is it not? Absolutely. Well particularly in this transparent world we now live in where everyone can go and write a shitty review if you've left a bad taste in their mouth. Absolutely.

[00:02:49] You want someone sitting in the pub saying they fired me but actually I'd go and work for them again. Yeah and I'm grateful because I've ended up here and all that sort of stuff. Yeah or it was the right thing.

[00:02:58] I didn't realise at the time but actually looking back now it was definitely the right thing. I needed to go. Don't you reframe all of these conversations? You call them generous conversations. I do. I call them generous conversations because when you go in to say to

[00:03:12] someone I want you to be happy and successful in your job role. If it's in the job role you've got now whoopee and sometimes you can reignite people to their current job role. It might be another job role in the company which is great.

[00:03:26] But if you can't give them that happiness, fulfilment and success because there's nothing that suits them then they need to leave and then that's the generous conversation because it's going to cost me. No it's not going to cost you.

[00:03:43] Because to have someone sitting in a job role that they're not suited for, that they have no talent for, that they hate is painful not just for them but for the team around them and for you as their manager because it will be

[00:03:56] like walking through a tree call to have a conversation with them. It'll just be painful. So it's a generous conversation but you go in somehow in our society we've got this idea that negative feedback conversations, difficult conversations, all these kind of conversations are horrible and that

[00:04:16] they leave people in tears and all that kind of thing which is a lot rubbish. You go in thinking how can I help this person succeed and if it's with me that's great. If it's not with me then that's also great because when they leave,

[00:04:32] they leave the post vacant for someone who's going to love it, who's going to thrive and who's going to give me great work. That's a generous conversation. I love that. It's that mindset isn't it? Yes. Going in. Yes. Actually I'm doing this with a greater good.

[00:04:48] I'm coming at it from heart. This isn't... Yes and when you go in with generosity and curiosity to speak to the person saying hey, I want you to be happy and successful what's going on here? How can we achieve that aim?

[00:05:02] If you go in with the generosity of heart and the curiosity then the tone of voice is right, then the words are right, then the conversation flows, then they go away and think about it a bit and they come back and

[00:05:15] they say actually I think you were right. No, I'm not really enjoying this job. You go oh no, I didn't think you were so okay, so where do we go now? And the whole thing flows so much more easily. Comes a little less scary doesn't it?

[00:05:29] Yes and you as a manager as a human being, as someone who wants to see people succeeding and let's face it we all want to succeed and we want to see people succeeding. It's much easier to have that conversation then when you go in on

[00:05:42] the basis of how can I help you succeed? And if it's not in this role then it needs to be somewhere else. It's quite interesting you're saying all of this and all I think of is your brilliant disrupt HR talk where you were talking about promote your managers

[00:05:57] or promote people to management and they die. But it was so few companies seem to invest in management training and leadership training. Yes because they invest in leadership training there's nothing wrong in that you know the top boys they get their stuff because it is actually

[00:06:15] easy to shoot our leaders down but it's actually quite scary being a leader up there for all kinds of stuff you know and having to think in a new way and having loads of demands placed on you. But too often we promote people into management without any support

[00:06:32] and particularly if they're managing people who used to be their friends, colleagues and that can be one of the hardest management jobs within an organisation and so you get people who want to succeed as a manager and then they suddenly are responsible for people who are behaving badly

[00:06:54] who are playing games with them. You know I remember when I first got to management one of my ex one of my ex-colleagues friends suddenly bought me buns. I'm assuming you mean bread buns not the other buns that you'd really like.

[00:07:11] But you know they knew how to get to my heart which is a small factory. So she bought me buns and I she'd never bought me buns before it was like an apple for the teacher. She bought me buns so I said thank you.

[00:07:27] Well what do you say? And then I'm left standing there going why has she done this? You know and what is she wanting from me? Am I now obligated to her because she's bought me buns? And the answer is no you're not obligated to someone.

[00:07:46] You just say thank you so much and then you share the buns with loads of other people. Oh yes. Yeah and you are not obligated to her. That is a game, that's a game, buying favour literally and you do not fall for that trick.

[00:08:01] So how did you learn that at the time? I mean did you just have someone to turn to and ask and say what's going on? Or do it on a wing and a prayer or? That's such a good question.

[00:08:16] You know I've been around a bit, we've learned to be over the years. I will never lead people, that's what I've learned. I mean yeah because I've been a great observer of people. I've naturally can observe people, it's one of my gifts.

[00:08:31] I can walk into a floor full of people and I've never seen them before and I'll point out the three difficult people for you. That one and that one and that one. And they'll go how do you know that?

[00:08:42] They're body language like clue, you know the way that they've got their head down they're not talking to anyone else. The sullen kind of look on their face, you know it's kind of easy to pick it out.

[00:08:54] But I've become aware over the years that I can see these things more easily than other people can. Absolutely. They've got other talents which I haven't got but my talent is to be able to see this.

[00:09:05] So I've always had this massive curiosity about people all of my life and I've just read books and observed and I had the good fortune to work for a good manager in my first HR job

[00:09:17] who never did anything the normal way, he did it the way that would work. Which was sometimes contrary to the normal way. So I had the good fortune to work for him who thought things through

[00:09:32] and that really helped as well and then I just went on my journey. I just went on my journey and made 110 different mistakes. I learned from one, learned a lot of other jobs, all kinds of stuff.

[00:09:47] I know one of the things that you've learned over the years that I totally want to pick your brain about. So one of my gorgeous recruiter clients, he has a hiring leader who forever panics. Oops, I shouldn't say gender. This person, cries wolf. Drama, drama, drama, drama, drama.

[00:10:05] Job, now urgent and it never is And actually a completely different client said to me you should be really wary of the lad. Because it's the quiet ones that have the urgent roles and actually really worry when they're quiet.

[00:10:18] How do you, because it's a difference, almost the opposite of what you're talking about. Here you are, you have the hiring manager who thinks that they're managing the recruiter, which they're not. The recruiters actually managing the recruitment process. They're not necessarily on a level.

[00:10:32] Usually the recruiter feels like there is service to that person. They're not sitting up and partnering, which I've rant on about anyone who's heard this podcast knows. But so there can be a power problem.

[00:10:43] But it says to push out of your push back with this person that's panicking, because you know really ultimately the role is actually not urgent. This is a difficult one because. Of course. You've got to try. Why would I bring an easy question to the conversation?

[00:11:01] You don't want to ignore the cry wolf because the one case when they ignore the cry wolf will be the one. It'll be the real agent. What the CEO is demanding and wanting it next week. And you're going, oh my God. Okay.

[00:11:15] This is do not allow he's panicked or she's panicked. Do not allow that panic to infect you. People who are panicked or angry, they have a tendency to ask people to join them in the anger or panic because then it justifies them being angry and panicked.

[00:11:37] And when you all get angry and panicked, nothing happens. So the answer is quite odd really. It starts with yourself. You need to stand on absolute firm ground. You need to know your worth not just vaguely in your head. Know your worth.

[00:11:59] There's a couple of exercises you can do for that one is to list everything you've achieved against the odds. All the brilliant stuff you've done. All the rabbits you've pulled out of hats. All the steady recruitment work you've achieved where you know, you list that listed listed listed.

[00:12:18] It should fill pages. Go back through your dairies and absolutely go, oh yeah. I remember that. Oh, do you and list it all down? It's evidence to the contrary isn't it? It's the evidence to the contrary in a voice. It's hot. Yeah, they're in their panic.

[00:12:35] We'll try to get you into panic. The easiest way to get you into panic is to start is to get you to doubt your value and worth. You you're no good as a recruiter unless you can give me this. That will be the line they will do.

[00:12:50] So list that. And it's a good idea to do that. And it's a good idea to always have my niece. She's been trained by me. And she's did those. Those listening to the audio is who just did like, you know, what's it called with their power?

[00:13:10] Power steps with her arms. And she and she she's very happy in her job being there for five years or something like that, very happy. I got a job actually. So yeah, one of them won the job. But anyway, I helped. Oh, so did. Yeah.

[00:13:26] So I said straight from the off, I said Fran, every month quick thing, have a file on your thing and write down all your achievements that month because you won't remember them next month.

[00:13:40] And when it comes to writing a CV you have got this huge list and she still does it to this day. It's just a scrappy document, all the accomplishments. But there's something in knowing your worth, standing your ground. Then there's something about building relationships,

[00:13:58] trusting good relationships with professional relationships with other hiring managers. Don't let this panicked person wash the sand from under your feet. And then you look at them and keep some distance away from the drama.

[00:14:22] The drama is theirs, not yours. It's absolutely their drama. I often think of it as a firework display. Because I don't want to get, I enjoy firework displays but I don't get very close to firework

[00:14:37] displays. It wouldn't be that crazy. And the same applies to a panicked guy like this or lady like this is that you can almost be amused by it when you have a distance to it going, oh my god,

[00:14:51] that going off again. Well isn't this interesting? And know that it's their problem, not yours. A couple of ways I've had to deal with that or given the tool to deal with that that adds

[00:15:04] beautifully to what you've just said is to do the, it's not of me or for me, or picture while they're exploding that they're in a beautiful glass bell jar. And so while their explosion isn't coming, it's not getting through and reaching you.

[00:15:17] It's not just impacting me. I'm the professional here. I have done all this excellent work. All these other hiring managers think I'm brilliant because I deliver and I'm trustworthy and all that kind of thing. This guy, he's or she is ill. They have huge

[00:15:37] probably insecurity. Maybe. Yeah, they do. Also that people behave in this way because it has in the past worked. Yeah. I'll stay on my foot the loudest and therefore I'll get what I want.

[00:15:51] And yeah, now if you go professional and calm and strong on them, they are likely in response to that to behave even more badly. Because they're trying to fluster you. Yeah. In TRNs, it's called scripts. They come in with a script where they shout loudly. You go,

[00:16:15] yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, pull your friends, bow down and get panicked equally. And rushing off and abandon every other task except for their obviously. It really is a shame this is audio only because Sue's like pulling at her hair shaking her hands. It's just brilliant.

[00:16:35] That's the script. Yeah, absolutely. And when they come in and behave in that way and expect that result and they don't get it, like you just stand there very calm. You go neutral. Go

[00:16:46] neutral. Do not add to the drama by looking cross or looking annoyed. Go neutral. Neutral in your face. Just neutral and you can practice that. I think I'd have the trouble of my face would probably show I was amused by their display. Neutral is difficult with this one.

[00:17:07] I know you would actually because you were very, very... I would find it funny but I wouldn't if. I think before I'd done like so much work to heal my trauma. I wouldn't if I would have

[00:17:18] got really upset. And I know that this particular recruiter does get upset by and gets flustered by it. So this is just amazing advice. Don't do that. It's a case of no, you're worth stand on your ground stand on the fact that people are valuing you genuinely.

[00:17:34] Yeah, I think that would be great. Wouldn't it if every recruiter every Friday just before they left the office to spend 10 minutes writing down everything they'd achieved that week? You would be stunned because our human brain, they've done a lot of research and

[00:17:49] they don't know why but it appears that the human brain concentrates on what's wrong rather than what's right. Flight and fright and what's the call that one? Yeah, yeah. And particularly when

[00:18:02] pressure's on that's where we go to what's wrong. So we'll go home on a Friday night thinking of everything we haven't done or everything it didn't quite go right. Rather than the rabbits

[00:18:12] we pulled out of the hat, the fantastic work that we did, that conversation that went really well. The office system. Yeah, so it's a fantastic exercise just to remind yourself of the truth. Of the truth. Oh, I was going to give you my second doozy question.

[00:18:33] Oh, go for it. I mean, I totally saved this up for you. Well, the expert are chilling with this stuff. So I got thrown a curveball actually, gorgeous Lithuanian recruiter I've done some training with and she has this hiring manager. So she's

[00:18:48] dealing with this hiring manager for about six months and basically this hiring manager wants what we call a unicorn in the industry. They want a bit of this person and they want a bit of that

[00:18:56] person and so of course one whole person doesn't exist, right? Now I'm old. I've been around a while. I would just literally walk in and go, I don't know what you're talking about, what

[00:19:05] your after is ridiculous like come on can we start again even though it's been six months but she's scared to feel that kind of vulnerability and that but it is vulnerability, isn't it to be that open and I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:19:18] I wouldn't necessarily go. I wouldn't know what you're talking about. I'm going and say I've done my best everywhere. I've asked for advice. I've done this. I've talked to other people because I have busted my gut to get this for you. The consensus that has come back from

[00:19:35] my own experience and from the opinion of others is that you are looking for someone does occasionally exist but it's actually very rare and what you're actually looking for appears to be a hybrid of this and that. You are looking for complementary skills.

[00:19:59] You're looking for someone who can write software code and sell it. Accountants who can do sales, that kind of thing. Exactly. Now I have known some people to do that and I can think of one. If you study personality types they're known as creatives because they

[00:20:25] actually consist of opposites but it's a very small percentile of the population that has that ability and they tend to be massively expensive. Exactly. My one guy, I was working in IT and banking

[00:20:42] in the banking sector. We weren't a bank but we were in the banking sector, financial sector, got poached off me by a bank for a phenomenal amount because he was the unicorn. He was that

[00:20:57] absolute rarity so I would go in and say I've busted my gut, I've done everything. I've done my hardest. I've spoken to other professionals about this and it appears what they are telling me concurs with my experience and it appears that what you're looking for

[00:21:21] only exists in very small percentage of the population and quite frankly in this market we're not going to find them because if anyone's got one of those they're throwing everything at them. They're keeping them. You also have to think about if the role's been open six months,

[00:21:37] how business critical is it? In six months they could have trained the skills of whatever's missing. Or what he's done is he's found a workaround within his team hasn't he? He's found a workaround

[00:21:49] because the work is getting done so that's when you sit down and you say let's revisit, let's plan again. Is it one post? Is it two posts? I mean I know and you know

[00:22:03] when I was because of my background as HR, how am I going to come running down? I want this position and I'll go after that position and then two days later they'd come down and say I've thought about

[00:22:13] it actually I've moved people in my team. I'm looking for that position. Because their first immediate thing is they can speak to the recruiter rather than actually think what they want. So this is where you can come in and say okay let's and help coach them through.

[00:22:36] What is your need? What is the need within the team? What is it what's the job that you need fulfilling? What's the best way of helping you get that job completed? It may be a hire or it

[00:22:49] may be a re-reorg or something like that. I think the issue is one recruiters aren't taught how to do that but mostly going back to the lack of management training or leadership training, whatever you'd like to call it. They don't know how to articulate what they really want.

[00:23:07] I always think in chapter five of my book The Intake like the most crucial part of the entire recruitment cycle and actually now I think you would probably if someone gave you a job

[00:23:17] requirement you would probably say well hang on a minute let's just go back a step because you've learned over the years. I would so because I've got to understand and I've been

[00:23:26] around the block a few times and I look like I'm not a student. She doesn't at all. So she's significantly younger than she is. I've got a little bit of sort of gravitas.

[00:23:42] So what I'd say okay is that really what you want me to do or do you want to think about it? Okay I could go and do this now and you'll have CVs on your desk this evening

[00:23:52] or do you want to think about it? Because my time is extremely precious and I've got a lot on my plate. I will do it if you tell me it's important. I would slightly change that though because some of these hiring managers wouldn't really care

[00:24:10] about your time. I would probably say you know your time is really important and I would be concerned you'll waste your time that you're interviewing people that actually you're not looking for. I'm just very aware there. You wouldn't do that off the bat.

[00:24:25] You would do that when you proved your worth when you had built trust. They knew that you were a valuable asset to them because you proved yourself in the past therefore they have to be a little bit more respectful of you. So it's kind of catch 22 things.

[00:24:44] See that goes back to I want them to partner. I think there are two major things wrong with recruitment. One is we recruit on someone's ability to write a CV. Oh my god when is

[00:24:55] that ever going to end? And secondly we don't partner. The recruiters don't partner with their HR teams and their hiring managers well enough whether they're external or internal to do a proper intake, to do everything, to push back and say have we looked at the team?

[00:25:10] Have you considered others in the team? Have you considered internally? Actually Jess von Bank who was on the previous podcast was talking about have we looked internally first? All this sort of stuff. There's not enough trainings to put.

[00:25:23] How to piss a really good employee off? Have them be excited about a future opportunity in the business and then have them see that opportunity come out up and be externally filled. One good person well pissed off. Now I'm looking for another job going they

[00:25:44] don't value me here. They don't love me. I've made it clear for the last 18 months I want that type of job and they've gone in external for it. Anyone wondering how to do that? The sponsor of this podcast Work Drive plug and play system very quick, very amazing.

[00:26:01] Their results are that internal employees go in three times a month to look at the current jobs to see what they could aspire to match to. And in this market which is the worst I've seen

[00:26:12] in 19 years of my career completely recommend it or of course other internal mobility tools in case I upset any listeners. And name me a company that doesn't state we look after our people your career is you we will look after your career if you come and join us.

[00:26:29] Exactly. And so you know it's just so much that you've got to walk your talk that's how you build trust. You walk your talk and sometimes you have to put effort into doing that. You have to

[00:26:43] consciously go no, no, no I made a promise I will fulfill it. Actually I think going back to your earlier advice if we if more recruiters were to spend that you know like do it on

[00:26:51] a Friday for example so you go into the weekend on a high really building that foundation making sure they've got those achievements in place really respecting what they have done respecting themselves believing themselves. Then there will be farmer and kind to push back. Yeah.

[00:27:09] Can I ask someone else to respect you without you first respecting yourself? Honestly, truthfully standing on ground and you made a review on Friday and go oh damn that didn't go so well. Okay, what's the learning? What would you do differently? How would you approach it

[00:27:25] differently? Yeah, because there's a lot in recruitment about your natural intelligence your natural wit your natural ability to build rapport and to to work freaking hard. Oh yeah. If you're successful in recruitment if you want to really go up another level

[00:27:46] you've got to do more than just your natural ability. Absolutely. You've got to actually apply and learn and do things and review and learn and go oh I was disappointed by that but I know what

[00:28:00] I'd do next time I would do this. And I think that's where you see the recruiters who invest in someone like yourself as an external coach or some or come and join my mastermind program

[00:28:10] and it's that self-reflection and that growth. And for anyone listening who's like oh well that's all well and good Katrina and Sue you know. Sue and I didn't start here. We both tell and when

[00:28:22] we have our very regular dinners we always talk about like how far we have grown because we have taken that time to invest in ourselves. Yes. Look at ourselves and learn from our mistakes find

[00:28:32] the silver linings in the trauma and that's how we've built our foundation. And I mean we support one another in our conversations there with Glaser One which is fabulous. More importantly the souffle at the end of dinner. It's my version of Buns people my version of Buns. Exactly.

[00:28:57] But yeah I have got two people that I well yes two people I speak to every week who are my support group. They're the people I go ah I'm worried about this or how do I do that.

[00:29:10] They cheer me on they remind me of my successes they remind me of who I am and they hold me accountable to going out and doing stuff. And this is no one does it alone. I try doing it alone

[00:29:26] and I'm telling you guys one it doesn't work too you spin your wheels just going round and round and round around your own thoughts all the time which is not pleasant. No. You don't actually move forward you have to find support to go forward. I mean even

[00:29:43] I've had a personal trainer why because and it's making the most massive difference because he's supporting me in achieving my objectives. Which is by the way she has now got two bionic knees. Yeah and he's talking I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to get

[00:30:06] I'm going to be better than I was before. Absolutely well I've already seen it because you're walking so much faster so yeah we are going to have that walking holiday but apparently

[00:30:14] it has to be five star not the version I normally do. Oh yes Katrina and this carpet is carrying up mountains in jungles I'm thinking no that's not me that's not me at all.

[00:30:26] I like doing crazy stuff what can I say. Oh no no no I want a proper bed and a bath. I don't mind walking. I always get a hot shower I don't think I do any of these without one of those.

[00:30:39] Oh that's not true sorry that's not true. No I know it's not true. What was that one you were talking about doing is it Tasmania or something? No it wasn't Tasmania or something.

[00:30:48] Oh I was going to do one in Papua New Guinea but pandemic. Yeah that's one but COVID everything up didn't it? Never mind. So Sue Ingram fantastic woman of difficult conversations if people want to find out more about you. They can find me on LinkedIn Sue Ingram

[00:31:11] conversely on LinkedIn that's one of the best ways to stay in touch because I'm always so in Grim Conversewell. Yeah they can obviously email me Sue at Conversewell they can download my 13 page web book on how to plan a difficult conversation.

[00:31:29] Oh yeah I actually had one of those. Yeah it is conversewell.com forward slash DC you can buy my book far well available on Amazon. Buy multiple copies for all of your leaders.

[00:31:43] Oh um yeah I've had some I had an HR person actually in a day saying your book is fabulous she bought it about a year ago she said I'm actually doing what it says now and it's making the biggest

[00:31:56] difference. Yes by the way I assume that you don't end up firing everybody. No I'm not buying that for my boss I'll be fine. No you will no the book actually is all about how to build

[00:32:11] the relationship with somebody so that you can tell them and the same principles apply to your boss you just have to be slightly more politically aware and also the big thing with talk feedback to a boss is to understand their world. Talk business. Understand their world find something

[00:32:32] that you can respect them for and they're only a human being trying to do a big job and probably petrified. Yeah and I have coached this is one thing isn't it Katrina when you coach

[00:32:44] people you see the inside of people yeah there was one guy I coached his intellect was superb his achievements were revolutionary and he was just the most nice guy you've ever met it's

[00:32:57] wonderful yet why did he hire me as a coach because he had doubt and with me confidentiality and all that kind of thing he could go I'm not sure yeah are they going to think of a bit of an

[00:33:13] idiot if I do that he had those exact things because he's human and everyone's human so so with a boss you need to understand their world and what are the pressures that they are

[00:33:28] under and believe you me they will be there. Perfect what a way to end. Sue Ingram thank you so much for all of that amazing as ever. My pleasure I love talking to you I love talking to

[00:33:40] your guys I love I love talking let's face it. She's a little bit of an extra about the old Sue. Thanks again Sue. My pleasure darling thank you. Thank you for listening to the hiring partner perspective unedited podcast proudly supported by the people at Work Drive. Hopefully

[00:33:58] you really enjoyed what you heard and a fleft feeling inspired and if so I would love your help to create real change. Please pass this podcast on to your hiring leaders and other recruiters and HR even share it on your social channels if you feel so inclined

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