Time for ZipRecruiter's CEO to Go?

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[00:00:53] Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and

[00:01:00] Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with

[00:01:05] breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.

[00:01:22] Oh yeah, two guys who've been through the desert on a horse with no name. Hey boys and girls,

[00:01:29] it's the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Goldwater Cheeseman. This is Chad SPF 15 Sowash.

[00:01:36] And on this week's episode, rapid fire, a breakup at Zip, and who'd you rather? Let's do this.

[00:01:48] How's the desert treating you, Chad? Can we hurry up? I gotta get back to the pool.

[00:01:52] Can we hurry up? Pools and cocktails are calling. Yeah. Phoenix is like Vegas without the drama

[00:01:57] and the crowds. It's very nice. It is, yeah. And I've got a hot blonde waiting for me back at

[00:02:02] the pool. So I'm coming, Julie. I'm coming. Nice, nice. So we're here at Paradox,

[00:02:08] Analyst Day slash user groups, whatever they call it. They have a certain brand for it.

[00:02:13] It's basically like users of Paradox coming. Innovation day. We are here doing a Netflix

[00:02:18] style series of interviews on AI. And I've been blown away by the content. I can't wait to release

[00:02:25] this to the world. Get excited if you care anything at all about AI and hiring.

[00:02:30] Yeah, no, I totally dig it. We get to see a bunch of people and a bunch of brands that we

[00:02:35] care about. And one of the things I love about going to these types of events is that

[00:02:40] they want to show you the innovation and then you get to step back and you get to gauge

[00:02:45] the clients and say, oh, what do you think about this? Is this something you're going to be able

[00:02:48] to adopt or what have you. But also, the vision, things that they have in test and beta,

[00:02:55] and then just having those discussions with industry leaders and individuals who use tech

[00:03:00] on a daily basis, what they give a shit about. And I got to say most of these companies that

[00:03:06] we've talked to, these TA leaders are well ahead of the rest of the market. You talk about

[00:03:12] the companies who adopt and they're fast followers. A lot of these companies are,

[00:03:17] and I am so surprised and excited to actually have these conversations. That's cool.

[00:03:23] Yep. And no spoiler alerts, but introducing change into some of these organizations,

[00:03:28] a lot of teeth pulling and arm twisting to get some of these changes. But once

[00:03:32] changes are made, positive outcomes follow. So yeah, I'm excited to get this series out.

[00:03:38] And you mentioned companies here at Paradox. I'm still trying to track down McDonald's,

[00:03:43] Shake Shack and Raising Canes. So far, so far no luck. I'm looking for coupons. You know me,

[00:03:48] you know me, Chad. I think they've given them your photo and they're looking out for you

[00:03:53] as well. So in an entirely different way. I'm on the black list at Shake Shack. I'm on

[00:04:00] the no-go list at Raising Canes. I got to talk to JD. JD, hook me up with some more

[00:04:05] Raising Canes coupons. Oh, he's going to do it. He's going to do it. You know what you're not on

[00:04:09] the black list for, unless you haven't registered at chadcheese.com slash free stuff. Oh, I've

[00:04:14] registered. Free stuff. That's right. Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Oh, some delicious, hazy,

[00:04:21] who knows what we're going to send you? You don't even know what we're going to send you.

[00:04:24] It's going to land on your front door by Aspen Tech Labs. Love those guys. Whiskey,

[00:04:28] two bottles, two bottles from Tex Colonel, one from Joel, one from myself. Love those guys

[00:04:33] over at Tex Colonel. And we did t-shirts. You handed out some t-shirts this week. What was the

[00:04:40] reaction? Very positive. We upgraded the shirt material. It's a little more, at risk of getting

[00:04:47] canceled, it's slightly more female friendly. Silky. It's a little softer without giving too

[00:04:53] much weakness in the fabric. So I think we did well there. Everyone, maybe it's our age,

[00:05:00] our demographic. They know the Guns N' Roses influence, so there's definitely some comments

[00:05:04] about that as excitement. But they like last year was ACDC, this year's Guns N' Roses.

[00:05:09] They like the theme. We'll keep that rolling. We'll keep that rolling.

[00:05:12] Well, and thanks to Aaron App, if you take a look at the back of the t-shirt,

[00:05:15] you'll see a really cool Aaron App logo. They designed it especially for the Chad

[00:05:21] and Cheese shirt. So right on the back. It's an Aaron original. That is true.

[00:05:26] Aaron original. Then we have, you know, kids, if it's your birthday,

[00:05:30] you've got to actually register so that you can win some rum from Plum. Once again,

[00:05:34] ChadCheese.com slash free. I know I can. Gotta do it. I can feel it all the way down in my plums.

[00:05:39] So the birthdays this week are a big tease because this is an abbreviated version of

[00:05:43] Chad and Cheese because we are on the road and Chad has a blonde, a pool, and a cocktail

[00:05:50] calling his name. But thanks as always to Plum. We will catch up on birthdays next week. Don't

[00:05:55] worry. We have not forgotten you everybody. But events, we got it. We got to talk about events.

[00:06:01] We are going to jump. That's right. Stratosphere, baby. We're talking about a jump,

[00:06:07] a leap. Yes. Literally jumping off the top of the strat with Matt Bauer,

[00:06:11] the CEO of Out Hire. It's over 800 and I think 50 feet or some shit like that.

[00:06:16] We're going to have cameras all over the place. Crazy Aussies. We're going to have a Depends camera

[00:06:21] on Cheeseman. You can nominate a friend. Call it insider trading, but I'm buying shares in Depends

[00:06:26] everybody. You should do the same. It's not just the baby boomers. Good at ChadCheese.com.

[00:06:32] Up top in the header, go ahead and click jump with us and you can register there. Then

[00:06:36] we're going to the minus five bar. That's right. Omar's Ice Castle with Diane and Jane

[00:06:42] from Great People and Omar from JobPixel. It's going to be cold, so hopefully you're ready to

[00:06:48] snuggle Cheeseman. Then last but not least, May 8th at the Neon Boneyard. Join us with Plum

[00:06:56] where we are going to be basking in the neon lights. Yes, the neon lights, the old lights

[00:07:02] that they didn't send and recycle. No, they put them down in an elaborates where you can party.

[00:07:08] Make a museum. And enjoy, right? Go to ChadCheese.com slash events and join the wait list there.

[00:07:15] We would love to see you in Vegas. No matter where it's at, we'd love to see you in Vegas.

[00:07:19] Good God. We are going deep in Vegas everybody. Holy crap. Holy crap. Omar's Ice House. I like

[00:07:25] the sound of that. I got to say though, Michelle over at Plum, she said she really enjoyed

[00:07:29] the eye poppy sound effect when we talked about neon nights. Just so you know.

[00:07:35] I'm happy.

[00:07:38] We aim to please. We aim to please. In fact, I'll do one up and give her a step bro.

[00:07:43] What are you doing, step bro?

[00:07:47] I love our sponsors.

[00:07:53] All right. This week we had a lot of shout outy newsy topics. We're going to combine

[00:07:58] them both. We're calling it rapid fire. Yeah. I'm going to read you the headlines

[00:08:01] from the week. Chad will comment on the ones that stood out to him. Starting with Sir Richard

[00:08:07] and Beverly's CV wallet just raised half a million dollars. By the way, I love a headline that says

[00:08:12] raised 0.5 million dollars. The 0.5 is really cute. 0.5 probably fell out of their Maserati

[00:08:19] and he just decided to call it a funding round. Anyway, their total now raised is

[00:08:25] $2 million and the valuation of the company is now at $13 million. Congratulations to them.

[00:08:30] Firing squad casualty, if you will, Draftboard has raised $4 million. I invite you to go listen

[00:08:37] to that if you haven't. He did not fare well but otherwise some investors did think enough of

[00:08:43] the company to drop $4 million. Rippling, Deal's favorite competitor is in talks to raise

[00:08:48] it a $13 billion valuation. Broadbean and Pandologic will now be known as Veritone Higher

[00:08:55] and Weed jobsite Vankst has acquired Cannabis Temp. Oh, and LinkedIn is adding a verified

[00:09:02] recruiter badge to profile pics. A lot to digest here, Chad. What stood out to you

[00:09:08] from this week's flurry of news? Did you mention Vonk in that one? Are we going to

[00:09:13] talk about Vonk in this one? Probably Miss Vonk. Yeah. Too much sun in my eyes here in

[00:09:17] Phoenix. I might have missed that. Yes, Vonk has officially, and you have some inside

[00:09:22] information on this, I think, has exited America. Did not work out for them.

[00:09:26] Yeah. So let's just go ahead and hit that one up first. So Vonk pulls out of the US.

[00:09:31] In 2021, the European team over at Vonk started building a team in the US and today

[00:09:36] there is literally no trace of that team left. A couple of classic points here. Number one,

[00:09:42] Vonk's last CEO wasn't from this industry and that generally doesn't bode well for a lot

[00:09:47] of startups. And number two, Vonk is a Dutch company trying to invade the US. We praised

[00:09:53] Vonk in 2021 for the move to an experienced strategically aligned staff here in the US,

[00:09:59] but European leadership just couldn't get out of the damned way. The hardest issue for me

[00:10:05] is that the integrations into the platforms, the ISIMs and smart recruiters, pretty big

[00:10:11] integrations. You can't cultivate a relationship of that size from across the pond. And also,

[00:10:17] their revenue in the US is paltry compared to what it is in Europe. And I'm an advisor and

[00:10:25] investor with Sonic jobs, a UK startup that's been around for about seven years.

[00:10:30] Sonic wanted to make the leap over the pond in the US and they have successfully in less

[00:10:37] time than Vonk has blown away their UK revenues in the US. Why? The US is a huge pot of gold,

[00:10:46] kids. UK, smaller pot of gold, yes, but smaller pot of gold. In Vonk's case, they're all over

[00:10:53] Europe. And to be quite frank, we've had discussions with many companies in Europe who

[00:10:59] don't even know who the hell Vonk is. So I think they have issues in Europe, number one.

[00:11:05] And number two, if they try to come back and from my understanding, they're going to try

[00:11:09] to come back to the US. If they try to come back to the US, if European leadership doesn't

[00:11:14] get the hell out of the way, they're going to fare pretty much the same, I feel, that they did

[00:11:19] this time. What do you think? Yeah, the penicillin worked on the Vonk in America.

[00:11:23] Didn't work out for New Amsterdam and it didn't work out for another Dutch company in Vonk. Look,

[00:11:28] the business is... The model is still there. The tech is still there. I'll give them one

[00:11:33] benefit of the doubt. I like the new leadership. Think the refocus.

[00:11:37] They don't have a CEO yet though. Well, Bill Fisher, right? I mean,

[00:11:40] is he just sort of the ICO? No, no. They're waiting. Yeah, he's like an interim.

[00:11:44] They're going to get an entirely new dude. It's a wait and see for me. I'm not going to

[00:11:48] hold my breath that they're going to crush it in America or come back anytime soon. Look,

[00:11:52] you can run a company from Europe and still have market share in America. Maybe the model

[00:11:56] isn't to have a whole team over here. Maybe it's just build great tech, integrate it,

[00:12:00] and hope that it works. It works for a lot of companies. It hasn't worked for Vonk so far,

[00:12:04] but yeah, you're in sync with some of their leadership more than I am. And if you're not

[00:12:08] optimistic, then I don't have much reason to be optimistic either.

[00:12:12] Yeah, I like them a lot. The problem is it's hard when a company is your baby, right? And

[00:12:19] obviously they did, Arno is gone. The CEO is gone. But that's not the entirety of

[00:12:25] the leadership. Who we like.

[00:12:26] Yeah, we do. I mean, yeah, but that's not the entirety of the leadership. You've got to

[00:12:29] get somebody who's in there who's strong, who understands great market penetration and

[00:12:34] hopefully that'll happen. Let's go ahead and get to a more fun 0.5 million CV wallet.

[00:12:41] I'm an investor and an advisor over there as well. A lot of news coming from people I know.

[00:12:48] What are the takeaways from the eRecruitment Congress with Bill Bormans

[00:12:53] that you actually pointed out on a podcast earlier this week is that jobs will find you.

[00:12:58] CV wallet embodies that statement and is the newest and most advanced iteration of that tech.

[00:13:05] I'm really excited for Richard and Beverly and the team and noticed two things. Number one,

[00:13:10] reason for the quick 48 hour raise. They were growing so fast they needed to get support

[00:13:16] people in, right? And then the amount. They didn't take too much, right?

[00:13:20] I'm going to give you some insider information.

[00:13:22] No, okay.

[00:13:23] I'm going to give you some insider information. They just took the tip, just the tip.

[00:13:26] Don't breach your contract. Don't breach your agreement. I don't want Sir Richard mad ass.

[00:13:31] No, I'm good. I cleared this with Beverly. It's all good.

[00:13:35] CV wallet launched March 1st of this year and they hit $1 million in ARR in 25 days.

[00:13:44] They're on pace to hit 2 million by next week and they're eyeing about 10 million in ARR

[00:13:52] by the end of the year. They're not even going to get a full 12 months and they're going to be

[00:13:57] on pace for 10 million in ARR. That to me is a big fucking applause.

[00:14:07] I feel about CV wallet sort of like I do every other crypto.

[00:14:11] Like I don't-

[00:14:12] Not crypto, stop it.

[00:14:14] Okay. I kind of get it but I don't. Break it down for me. It's profiles that are on the

[00:14:19] blockchain. It's like a passport for multiple platforms to share resume, assessment data,

[00:14:26] maybe background checks or eventually background checks. How are they making money? What's the

[00:14:31] revenue model?

[00:14:32] Here's the thing because this is rapid fire. I've already talked to Richard and we're going

[00:14:36] to get him on the show and we're going to run down all of those things. I know but I don't

[00:14:41] want to take a half an hour to try to explain to you infrastructure, all this other fun stuff.

[00:14:46] It's not easy stuff.

[00:14:48] Richard works for me. Richard works for me.

[00:14:51] Can we get him to do the interview from the Maserati? Can he be in the Maserati

[00:14:55] while we're in Tuck and Toe?

[00:14:56] No, because there's- I don't know maybe because they've got some really good

[00:14:59] noise dampening in a Maserati.

[00:15:01] Okay. All right.

[00:15:02] The next news from Veritone. Veritone hire, superhuman hiring is here. We talked about

[00:15:10] them having all the pieces and the question is can they pull all of those pieces together

[00:15:15] in time because the velocity of tech today is moving so fast. Is it going to pass them

[00:15:20] up before they actually get the puzzle put together? That's the hard part.

[00:15:23] But what's most interesting to me about this company isn't the AI, it's the ability

[00:15:28] to provide basic job distribution and more advanced performance driven job distribution

[00:15:34] because not all companies are ready for performance based jobs. And if you are serving

[00:15:39] global clients, you have to understand that performance based ads aren't as well adopted

[00:15:45] across the pond. So they have both. They can do both. So they're ready for that transition.

[00:15:52] Then think of the prospect of using Wade and Windy AI for pre-screening an application.

[00:15:57] It's a practical posting play combined with heightened candidate experience and

[00:16:02] a better way to collect data. The question is again, can the maestro make this orchestra

[00:16:08] play the right tune? If so, I think it'll be a hell of a symphony.

[00:16:10] How do you feel about because Broadbean is a long time brand, I think mostly positive

[00:16:17] and Pando's been built last 10 some years, the brand there. Do you think dumping those

[00:16:23] is a mistake or do you think it just is something that had to be done and Wade and

[00:16:26] Windy as well but much less so? Yeah, I think it's something that had to

[00:16:29] be done and it's going to be happening for the most part behind the scenes when you

[00:16:33] need a big brand. These are job distribution that's happening pretty much out of applicant

[00:16:39] tracking systems and then you've got performance based that's happening through ad agencies.

[00:16:44] You don't really have to have a great brand for McDonald's or for Lowe's or Lockheed Martin.

[00:16:52] It's not a consumer brand, right? Yeah, you don't need to have that.

[00:16:55] I think it's smart. Go ahead and consolidate that. Save money on even the thought of

[00:17:01] marketing or keeping three brands and whatnot and three websites actually running.

[00:17:06] I think it's smart but once again, that's all going to be water under the bridge if they just

[00:17:12] can't get this thing moving fast enough. Yeah, I really like the pieces that they're

[00:17:17] pulling together here. I like the leadership. I know they made some hard decisions.

[00:17:21] It's the era of AI and if this company can't make it happen in AI when it's an AI first

[00:17:27] company, it's set to win. You're going to have to try hard to fuck this up based on what they've

[00:17:34] done. I think the brand change is necessary. Consolidate it all, put it under one umbrella

[00:17:38] so that the market understands and it's not like the extension of the brand is confusing.

[00:17:43] I think everyone, Veritone Hire, I think most Pando people understand the acquisition.

[00:17:49] Broadbean again, there's not much connection to the brand.

[00:17:52] Yeah, I think we're both rooting for Veritone. They are a sponsor, full disclosure. Obviously,

[00:17:56] we like them to win but it's a good story, great technology. It's a technology that was

[00:18:02] general in how it came to our space as opposed to our space and then trying to go general.

[00:18:07] It's really exciting to have that dynamic in our space. I think we should all be

[00:18:12] rooting for them to shake things up and be successful.

[00:18:16] Being here in Paradox, we were talking about AI a lot. At the end of the day,

[00:18:20] this is all about outcomes. What's the problem that you're trying to fix with whatever solution

[00:18:26] you have in place? You've got to remember that again, the velocity of tech today,

[00:18:32] you're going to have to have AI in your back pocket. It might not be necessary right now

[00:18:37] but if you're not building for tomorrow, you're going to be dead kids.

[00:18:40] Any other news items catch your attention?

[00:18:43] The whole Draftboard thing still just blows my mind. Nobody can get referrals to actually

[00:18:47] work inside a company. Now, we're going to try to do it outside of a company.

[00:18:53] For me, there's so many PE VC investors who they have so much money that they've been holding onto

[00:19:01] and they literally, they're just looking to spend it on anything.

[00:19:05] Again, love the guys, the team over there. They realize they don't have the background

[00:19:10] in this space although they're going to push forward and they should and they've got

[00:19:13] four million plus reasons to be able to do that. Again, we know where this ends.

[00:19:19] Where it has ended historically. Doesn't mean it'll end that way in the future but odds are.

[00:19:24] Crystal ball out. Crystal ball.

[00:19:25] History doesn't repeat itself but it sure as hell does rhyme. Any take on the weed acquisition?

[00:19:31] Weed is interesting because it is such a big business but we should be hearing more about

[00:19:35] this. There's a huge, huge market. If you go to, I mean, we're here in Arizona, there's

[00:19:41] huge market here. There's a huge market in pretty much the entire West Coast, right?

[00:19:46] I think what we're going to see and hopefully what we're going to see is at least with these

[00:19:51] laws are going to move forward. I mean, it's crazy how we're dragging Roe versus Wade out

[00:19:57] and then Arizona is going back to 1864 but no, you can go ahead and have weed. I mean,

[00:20:02] it's just the signals are so mixed but when it comes to weed, that's all about money,

[00:20:07] right? We know here in America, politics is about what? It's about the green.

[00:20:13] It's about the lobbyists. It's about the green.

[00:20:15] Yeah and it is about the green in terms of until the federal government observes weed

[00:20:20] as a legal business, it's got to be really hard to acquire companies and merge companies

[00:20:25] in this space. I mean, they don't have bank accounts, right? Let alone, let me buy a company,

[00:20:30] rule of law, do lawyers get involved with that if it's legal business? There's got to

[00:20:34] be so many hurdles to making shit like this happen that the fact that it happened at all

[00:20:38] is pretty surprising to me. I know Vance is one of the more high profile. I said high profile.

[00:20:44] I said high and they've had the most money. It's a good business but it's also not.

[00:20:50] It hasn't really blown up until it's federally legal, until Philip Morris and Reynolds get

[00:20:57] into it and start buying up all these companies and brands. I think it's just going

[00:21:00] to be in the status quo world of nothingness for the most part. My guess is Cannabis Temp,

[00:21:06] not exactly a brand name. I'm sure it was like some dudes that were high in the fucking basement

[00:21:11] like, let's sell the company and it was so. I got to say that for me and this is my personal

[00:21:19] investment strategy, I look long term and you look for this thing to pop and I just

[00:21:25] think that within the next five, 10 years, it's going to pop and it's going to be federal

[00:21:30] so yeah, I think they're making a very smart bet on the market and what's going to happen in

[00:21:36] about 10 years. As we sit back and wait, I think anybody who buys into it personally,

[00:21:41] it's smart. When this thing becomes legitimized, it's going to be like Katie Bar the Door.

[00:21:46] There's going to be startups galore, money galore. Yeah, big tobacco is going to get

[00:21:50] into it. We'll be talking about it probably on a weekly basis but not so much now.

[00:21:54] And you'll be taking more five milligram THC at the sphere.

[00:22:01] I don't know what you're talking about Chad.

[00:22:03] Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[00:22:06] All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about who'd you rather.

[00:22:10] Just the tip.

[00:22:14] All right, Chad, are you ready for a game of who'd you rather?

[00:22:20] That's right. We take two companies that have recently gotten funding.

[00:22:25] I read a summary and Chad and I decide who we'd rather.

[00:22:32] All right, Chad, first up we have Paraform. They've raised $3.6 million in funding. The

[00:22:38] San Fran based startup targets laid off recruiters starting their own businesses,

[00:22:42] connecting them with startups for talent sourcing with a subscription and success

[00:22:47] fee model. Paraform aims to expand globally and into new job markets just beyond tech

[00:22:54] roles into others using, you guessed it, AI. And in this corner we have Take2AI.

[00:23:04] New York City based Take2AI has raised $3 million in seed funding with participation

[00:23:09] from tech stars and HR leaders from Visa, Disney, HP and Google. The startup aims to

[00:23:15] help companies generate tailor-made simulations of real world sales scenarios to vet job applicants

[00:23:21] for skills, behavioral attributes and culture fit, hoping to minimize mis-hires and improving

[00:23:28] retention. That is Paraform versus Take2Chad. Who'd you rather?

[00:23:34] Well, I'm going to start off with Take2AI. So let me start out by saying I'm very biased

[00:23:39] when it comes to this because I advise Tadio, also a performance based job simulation

[00:23:44] platform, but can the candidate actually perform the tasks necessary for the job? Resumes can't

[00:23:50] provide actual performance data. Right? Yeah. And someone might've been the best salesperson

[00:23:56] on an already shitty team. But what happens if that not so shitty salesperson comes to a team

[00:24:02] of high performers? You just don't know. Right? So not all numbers are relative yet

[00:24:07] performance through simulations can scale and it can really help the hiring process.

[00:24:13] And I liken this to, because I've been in many sales interviews, sell this pin. Right? You're

[00:24:18] in an interview and they do what? They sell this pin. Right? This is even better because

[00:24:22] yeah, you can do that at scale. Right? And you can also have the individual go through a CRM

[00:24:28] and go through all those different things. So I mean, that to me, it makes more sense

[00:24:32] and it's more practical. Now Paraform, what the fuck do they actually need AI for this?

[00:24:38] I mean, this is ridiculous. It's a side hustle platform for recruiters. For me, it's way too

[00:24:44] small. I would look at it kind of side eye and then walk past, I'm going to take to AI,

[00:24:50] sell me this pin all day. What are you doing, Stepbro?

[00:24:54] All right. I love it. So I agree with Paraform. This is bounty jobs. This has been

[00:24:59] done for decades. It hasn't hit marketplace for recruiters. We're in a world where we're

[00:25:05] talking about fewer recruiters. So the idea of launching a recruiting marketplace seems

[00:25:09] a little bit slow growth or no growth to me. So that one is a real, that's a real no-go for

[00:25:16] me. That's a skank in the corner that I'm not paying any attention to on Hooja rather.

[00:25:21] Now the take two interesting name, it was a band from the 90s also from,

[00:25:26] they're like a Brit pop band. Anyway, enough about my past musical career. My thing with

[00:25:31] sales is the trend of AI-ing. Is that a word? Of using AI to automate calls, outreach to people

[00:25:42] and then give them to someone who was already experienced in sales.

[00:25:46] Hot leads.

[00:25:46] Yes. Hot leads. I've scheduled a demo, but we've heard, we've seen the AI demo of real calls,

[00:25:54] companies like Apple and Tesla are using these voice calls basically to try to sell computers

[00:26:00] and cars. So I don't see a huge company in training salespeople in this way. However,

[00:26:07] I do appreciate that the human touch in sales, the more you automate it is going to be

[00:26:12] important. So training like real people, salespeople that are selling SaaS businesses

[00:26:17] and products that are six figure deals, that you can't do with an automated voice or video

[00:26:23] in the process. So for me, like I don't think it's a huge win. I love the video. If you're

[00:26:29] interested in this business, Techstars, there's a video of the presentation or demo, which is

[00:26:33] pretty cool. They have some big heavy hitters behind this company. So for those reasons,

[00:26:38] it's kind of an easy layup of who I would rather and I'm going to side with you

[00:26:44] and go with take two.

[00:26:46] I'd rather.

[00:26:47] I'd rather. That's been another game of who'd you rather Chad, we're going to take another break

[00:26:55] and talk about some leadership fails. Yes.

[00:27:03] Chad, it was a bad week for leadership in the world of business. First, ZipRecruiter's COO,

[00:27:11] Kasim Safi is leaving after serving in the role for just under three years. Nike CEO John Donahoe

[00:27:19] is blaming remote work for the company falling behind on innovation saying that it's tough to

[00:27:25] be disruptive when people are working from home and Baers CEO aims to save $2.15 billion by,

[00:27:35] get this, eliminating middle managers and most of the company's corporate handbook.

[00:27:41] Employees will self-manage in dynamic shared ownership teams, whatever that means,

[00:27:46] focusing on projects for 90 day stretches. Chad Zip, Nike and Baer aren't exactly

[00:27:53] winning this week. What are your thoughts?

[00:27:57] Winning.

[00:27:58] Zip hasn't been winning for a while and I don't know why the COO left. I don't know why

[00:28:04] left, but why not the CEO? Because think about it. Ian's vision was pretty tight before the IPO.

[00:28:12] Before the IPO, Zip, they weren't as sloppy as they are now. I mean, this is just horrible.

[00:28:19] They have had an amazing product that was slightly ahead of everybody else. I'm not

[00:28:24] going to say they were incredibly innovative, but they were on the road, right?

[00:28:28] They knew their lane.

[00:28:29] Yeah. They had an amazing product. They were slightly ahead of everybody else. They were

[00:28:32] putting tons of cash into AI and R&D in Israel, right? They were delivering great results since

[00:28:41] the IPO. Again, we've talked about this before. Sometimes CEOs are good to a certain level,

[00:28:47] right? Then they just have to know. They have to self-identify. They have to

[00:28:51] pick themselves out, right? Ian, after the IPO, it just seems like this organization has

[00:28:57] fallen incredibly flat and they're starting to get lapped by a bunch of startups that

[00:29:03] are out there right now. That's the unfortunate part. What do you think? I know asking for Ian's

[00:29:10] head isn't great, but when the organization is in the dumper, for God sakes, since IPO,

[00:29:18] I don't know what to do.

[00:29:20] It's a hot take calling for Ian to step down. That's for sure. We have our YouTube

[00:29:25] short for the week for sure on that one. CEOs, it's hard to dislodge them, but if the stock

[00:29:32] doesn't turn around soon, there's going to be rumblings. Look, the COO leaving, any C-suite

[00:29:40] employee that leaves, it's not good unless they've been there for 20 years,

[00:29:44] they have a succession plan, they've been grooming a success. We've talked about ICEMS,

[00:29:50] CEO jump-in. People, when they leave like this, it's bad and the trend is when they leave,

[00:29:57] more people leave, the company goes through worse times. This does not bode well for Zip

[00:30:03] Recruiter. Whether or not Ian needs to step down, I don't know. Kaseem was in marketing

[00:30:08] when he came in, I think five years ago. He became the chief marketing officer. He actually

[00:30:14] oversaw probably a lot of the cool marketing initiatives that we know and love from those

[00:30:18] days at Zip Recruiter. Guy became COO. We brought him in, it didn't work out, he's gone. He's been

[00:30:24] with the company for a while. He knew what he was getting into. I'm sure they felt really

[00:30:28] comfortable putting him in that position. Look, the company is going nowhere. There's

[00:30:33] little to no growth. I think they've barely moved headcount since he took over two years

[00:30:39] and eight months ago. The stock is going sideways. He actually dumped 33,000 shares

[00:30:45] of the stock in December of last year. He's known the writing on the wall for a while. He's

[00:30:52] dumping shares, he's jumping ship and it is not a good sign for Zip Recruiter that this shit is

[00:30:57] going down. It's a bad situation at Zip Recruiter for sure. Then you've got a great

[00:31:02] brand like Nike and you've got a total dipshit of a CEO, John Donohoe, on Friday who blamed

[00:31:09] remote workers, as you'd said, for falling behind on innovation, saying it's tough to be disruptive

[00:31:15] from home. The problem is here kids, we have a bunch of prehistoric fucking CEOs that are out

[00:31:21] there who don't understand that leadership isn't standing over somebody's shoulder, right? You're

[00:31:27] going to have to evolve. You're going to have to learn how to lead from afar and anybody who

[00:31:34] actually has been through any type of leadership courses or mentoring or anything like that

[00:31:39] understands that you have to be diplomatic. You have to work with empathy, but you have project

[00:31:45] deadlines and goals for a reason, right? You need to start managing toward that. Not to mention

[00:31:50] we're really early, to be quite frank, in the remote work kind of time of our life.

[00:31:57] We're getting there, but we're not going to get there. Nike's not going to get there

[00:32:01] with the CEO with this type of mindset because he doesn't understand that he needs to evolve.

[00:32:09] When he evolves, will the rest of his teams and his staff not only evolve, but they will

[00:32:15] become disruptive. They will regain the ability to be disruptive. Nike, a very successful

[00:32:22] company historically is in a slow period if you will. The stock is down about 8% in the

[00:32:29] last six months. China's slowing for them, growing markets historically are slowing down.

[00:32:35] When things get bad, leadership tends to point fingers, try to find an escape valve-

[00:32:41] Not me.

[00:32:42] To explain what's going on and an easy explanation is, well, there's no innovation

[00:32:47] because everyone's remote. You know who's been kicking Nike's butt for the last few years?

[00:32:52] A little company called Hoka and another company that makes shoes called On. Now,

[00:32:56] I'm not a shoey guy, but I think that's how you pronounce those two. You know who has remote work?

[00:33:01] Hoka and On. Don't come to me saying we can't innovate because of remote workers when the two

[00:33:07] companies that have been kicking your ass for the past few years have remote work. Figure it

[00:33:12] out, quit pointing fingers, you work for Nike, put your big boy pants on, put your Air Jordans

[00:33:17] on and figure that shit out. Period. Fire yourself.

[00:33:23] I need the company that made aspirin because I need an aspirin after those hot takes. Let's go to

[00:33:28] Bayer. Bayer is really interesting because this just feels like a lazy restructure. Obviously,

[00:33:34] there was a lot of bloat and you see that in organizations. It is the CEO's job to manage

[00:33:41] that bloat. You have people in place to be able to know what's happening in the organization.

[00:33:46] Apparently they got together and said, you know what? We're really bloated and our processes

[00:33:51] are slowing us down, et cetera, et cetera. That's all well and good. A restructure makes sense,

[00:33:56] but this just seems fucking lazy. We're just going to go ahead and take an entire swath.

[00:34:01] Just right out of it. Okay, who are we going to take? Are we going to take these guys

[00:34:04] and we're going to throw them right out the window? Will it work? I had no clue.

[00:34:09] When you have that much bloat, and I would assume that's the problem here,

[00:34:14] two things are going to happen. Number one, you want to try to move processes faster so

[00:34:19] you don't want all those bottlenecks in the hierarchy. Number one, number two,

[00:34:23] saving that much money over a billion dollars, that's short-term good for the bottom line.

[00:34:31] One man's lazy could be another man's bold, Chad.

[00:34:35] 60% of the time it works every time. I mentioned Nike stock being down 8%

[00:34:41] in the last six months. Care to take a guess on how much Bayer stock is down in

[00:34:45] the last six months? It begins with a four and ends with a zero. That's right, 40% down

[00:34:50] in the last six months as a pharmaceutical company. I don't know if you've read, Chad,

[00:34:55] but people are getting older and taking more drugs. If you can't make a pharmaceutical

[00:34:59] company successful, well, I can't really help you. I love the fact. I do want to love this.

[00:35:04] I do want to love it. It's such a big swing that you got to love it. A company with 100,000

[00:35:10] employees is going to do something like this. The guy's comment about the employee handbook

[00:35:17] is literally more pages than war and peace. That's a problem. I know the Germans love their

[00:35:25] orders and their instruction books. Maybe take a page from the Swedes and make a little

[00:35:29] more picture pages in your instruction book than what the Germans have done.

[00:35:34] I want to love this, but it reeks of, holy shit, the board wants my head. Shareholders want my

[00:35:40] head. I'm just going to dump a bunch of employees and say, we're making a huge change. I'm going to

[00:35:45] pray that it keeps me in my job and saves the company. Otherwise, this is a huge swing.

[00:35:52] It's either going out of the park or he's going back to the dugout and into the parking

[00:35:57] lot and he's done. This is three companies, Zip, Nike, and Bear that have really done some

[00:36:04] weird shit. While all this is happening, Chad, I'll remind you Art Zeal and Scott Gutz

[00:36:10] are still employed as CEOs. We out. We out. Thank you for listening to what's it called?

[00:36:18] Podcast. The Chad. The cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology.

[00:36:25] But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know

[00:36:31] and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar blue

[00:36:39] nacho pepper jack Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho,

[00:36:48] be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your

[00:36:55] podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com.

[00:37:05] Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

[00:37:12] How much do you understand the future of finance? I'm Jim Roos, a top 10 banking influencer and host

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