Gerry Tales from Unleash

[00:00:00] Yo Chad, what if I told you there's a platform that could completely revolutionize your hiring

[00:00:07] strategy in a matter of hours?

[00:00:09] Yeah, I'd call it bullshit.

[00:00:12] Well, it's not bullshit with AI for Jobs powered by our friends at This Way Global.

[00:00:17] Okay, I'm listening.

[00:00:19] While everyone else is fishing in the same old talent pools, AI for Jobs can source

[00:00:24] over 160 million diverse candidate profiles.

[00:00:29] This Way Global has established unique partnerships with over 8,500 trusted diversity partners.

[00:00:36] So wait a minute, all of the hard on-the-ground work is already done?

[00:00:40] That's right cowboy, you can discover 300 qualified candidates per job rack instantly.

[00:00:46] It's like having a candidate sourcing magic wand.

[00:00:49] Dude, if you had a magic wand, you would have Mexican pizzas all day.

[00:00:57] Job distracting me, Sowash.

[00:00:58] AI for Jobs advanced matching algorithm analyzes past applicants using trillions of historical

[00:01:05] matching events and over 1,600 data points.

[00:01:09] Now that is what AI should be doing, saving recruiters time on sourcing while they

[00:01:14] provide a white glove candidate experience.

[00:01:18] Let's wrap this shit up, I'm hungry.

[00:01:21] Listen up kids, revolutionize your hiring process today by jumping over to thiswayglobal.com

[00:01:27] and checking out AI for Jobs where you can learn more about how to leverage AI for your

[00:01:33] recruiting instead of just writing poems and grocery lists.

[00:01:37] That is thiswayglobal.com.

[00:01:41] We out.

[00:01:42] Hide your kids, lock the doors!

[00:01:46] You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast.

[00:01:48] Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right

[00:01:53] where it hurts.

[00:01:54] Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark.

[00:01:58] Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:02:02] Awww yeah, what's up everybody?

[00:02:08] We are live from the Daxter booth at Unleash in Las Vegas.

[00:02:11] This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:02:13] I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman.

[00:02:15] Joined as always, Chad Sowash is here and we are just privileged to have Jerry

[00:02:21] Crispin, co-founder of Career Crossroads, industry expert and world of work icon.

[00:02:27] My beard worships his.

[00:02:31] Jerry Crispin, welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast.

[00:02:34] After all the shit he just gave you, he's like icon.

[00:02:38] He's like you should have saw all the off camera stuff that was happening.

[00:02:41] Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:43] It's been a while.

[00:02:43] You were on the show I think pre pandemic.

[00:02:46] I was on the show.

[00:02:46] When we were trying to be a serious podcast.

[00:02:49] No, we did a whole series.

[00:02:50] We did Jerry's series.

[00:02:51] Jerry Tales.

[00:02:53] So I got stories.

[00:02:55] I got stories.

[00:02:57] I got stories.

[00:02:58] So Jerry, some of our listeners don't know who you are.

[00:03:00] Who are they?

[00:03:02] Some are too young and weren't around in the industry.

[00:03:06] Give us the Twitter bio about you.

[00:03:09] We'll let you go a little longer because you've around it.

[00:03:11] But I don't.

[00:03:11] I just nurture a community of talent acquisition leaders from large companies

[00:03:16] who are committed to helping each other.

[00:03:19] Say more about that.

[00:03:20] You have an organization.

[00:03:21] I have an organization that I don't have to run.

[00:03:26] So I have somebody who does all the heavy lifting.

[00:03:29] He's the president.

[00:03:30] And Chris does a fabulous job in building a platform that helps people

[00:03:36] who are in talent acquisition, in leadership roles, engage one another.

[00:03:40] Benchmark, understand what's going on.

[00:03:42] Chris is taking the baton though.

[00:03:44] Let's talk about why you started and then how you grew it up to this point

[00:03:49] where somebody needs to take over.

[00:03:51] That's a great legacy, right?

[00:03:54] And please mention the days where you wrote a book on all the job boards

[00:03:58] that were out there.

[00:03:59] We're going back so let's do it.

[00:04:02] It started with actually Mark and I were helping a group of talent acquisition leaders

[00:04:08] and CHROs who are out of work find jobs.

[00:04:11] It was a group that met every Saturday morning at 7 a.m.

[00:04:16] Every other Saturday morning at 7 a.m.

[00:04:19] They had to be committed.

[00:04:20] They had to be committed.

[00:04:21] They had to share fully what they were interviewing on,

[00:04:24] which some were reluctant because it's competitive.

[00:04:27] Somebody's going to call up and say, hey, don't take him, take me.

[00:04:31] So you have this starting this group typically about 30 or 40 people

[00:04:37] in the Princeton area who are doing this.

[00:04:39] And I enjoyed trying to help them.

[00:04:43] It was a pay-it-forward.

[00:04:44] I was working with Shaker Advertising at the time.

[00:04:46] Many of these folks after they got a job obviously are trying to rethink how they recruit.

[00:04:52] And it might be that, hey, you need a new advertising agency.

[00:04:55] So there's an advantage there as well.

[00:04:59] But Mark and I were doing that and then we said,

[00:05:01] this weird shit is happening with this thing called the internet.

[00:05:07] And there's this OCC.

[00:05:09] What the hell is that?

[00:05:10] And there's this career mosaic.

[00:05:15] There you go.

[00:05:18] So you have these nascent job boards starting up

[00:05:22] and none of the people in the room knew anything about them.

[00:05:25] And so we're collecting data on all of that

[00:05:28] and I'm putting it into a little computer, Pentium 286.

[00:05:34] Manual entry.

[00:05:35] Is that gerbil still alive?

[00:05:38] I think it's powering my Wi-Fi at home.

[00:05:40] So we're doing all of that.

[00:05:42] And then somebody sends me, I start getting involved with Sherm,

[00:05:45] and Sherm sends me a note that says,

[00:05:47] hey, you've been elected to give a talk at the 1996 Chicago SHRM Annual Conference

[00:05:56] and your subject is HR and the internet.

[00:06:00] Hello.

[00:06:01] They told you the topic.

[00:06:03] They basically said, we'd like you to do that because no one knows anything about it

[00:06:08] and because no one's ever done a topic on HR

[00:06:11] and the internet at our annual conference.

[00:06:14] So I said, shit, why not?

[00:06:16] Okay, I can do that.

[00:06:17] So I put together a deck of all these different kinds of things,

[00:06:21] but then they sent me a note in January that said,

[00:06:26] if you have a book, we'll promote it.

[00:06:28] Oh, the book.

[00:06:29] And I looked at Mark.

[00:06:30] If you have a book, we'll promote it.

[00:06:32] And Mark and I looked at each other and said,

[00:06:35] oh, that's what we could do together

[00:06:38] He was a contract recruiter.

[00:06:39] I'm working at Shaker.

[00:06:41] We're going, a book?

[00:06:42] We have hundreds, because we have almost all of the job boards that exist right now

[00:06:48] in our computer and we got little notes about them.

[00:06:51] So it was a four page novella that you passed out.

[00:06:55] 160 pages.

[00:06:57] So I had a floppy disk.

[00:07:01] We went and learned how to do a book.

[00:07:05] You had to get a publisher back then.

[00:07:07] No, no.

[00:07:08] Oh, no.

[00:07:08] Okay.

[00:07:08] There was self publishing back then?

[00:07:10] Oh, I sent a two page letter to three publishers.

[00:07:15] All of them drove to my New Jersey address with Shaker

[00:07:20] to explain to us how wonderful this idea is

[00:07:25] of writing a book about internet resources for job seekers.

[00:07:29] And they wanted to partner with us.

[00:07:31] And then we learned.

[00:07:32] Partner.

[00:07:32] Partner.

[00:07:33] And partner turned out to be a 40 page document

[00:07:36] that basically said they own everything forever

[00:07:40] and everything I will ever do from that point on.

[00:07:44] And I will get 5% of the profits.

[00:07:48] How generous.

[00:07:49] What a deal.

[00:07:50] Determined by them after they've decided how much all of this cost.

[00:07:54] Mark and I looked at each other and we said, what are you kidding me?

[00:07:57] We're going to do this ourselves.

[00:07:58] We're going to have to learn how to write a book.

[00:08:01] So we printed out on a floppy disk.

[00:08:03] He went to Chicago to a convention of bookmakers or something.

[00:08:08] So he learned all the list of what to do.

[00:08:10] And we basically printed out or had a printer print out

[00:08:16] from a floppy disk onto 160 pages.

[00:08:18] Is this a trip to Kinko's?

[00:08:20] All this shit.

[00:08:21] We had an artist put the front on it.

[00:08:24] An artist.

[00:08:24] We figured out how to put the indicias in the,

[00:08:27] you know, all of the other stuff that you did.

[00:08:30] We said, what should we charge?

[00:08:32] Oh, let's charge $14.95.

[00:08:35] Why?

[00:08:36] Who knows?

[00:08:40] So $14.95.

[00:08:41] Then I call Sherm and I say, we got a book.

[00:08:45] It's coming out.

[00:08:47] It's being printed right now.

[00:08:48] And we're going to make it in time.

[00:08:50] How many books do you want us to send to the bookstore in Chicago?

[00:08:54] He says 50.

[00:08:56] 50?

[00:08:58] And we had coughed up enough money to make 5,000 copies at a dollar.

[00:09:05] I think it was $1.69 per copy.

[00:09:08] That's good margin.

[00:09:12] So we sent two cases.

[00:09:15] So in 100 books, we sent them to the room we were going to be in.

[00:09:19] We sent them 50.

[00:09:20] So we knew there was 150 anyhow.

[00:09:22] We were ready to hawk it like crazy.

[00:09:25] We go to Sherm.

[00:09:27] They want me to do two sessions now.

[00:09:30] 1,000 people in each session.

[00:09:32] Hello.

[00:09:34] And the projector, as you can imagine, was way bigger than this table.

[00:09:40] And you have 150 books?

[00:09:42] I had 150 books.

[00:09:43] That's it.

[00:09:45] Scarcity sells.

[00:09:46] Yes, it does.

[00:09:47] Sherm was willing to sell the book even if they didn't have it in front of them.

[00:09:53] Really?

[00:09:54] They sold 5,000 books in an hour and a half.

[00:09:56] Wow!

[00:09:58] And you're an author now?

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:01] And he and I looked at each other.

[00:10:02] We said, holy shit.

[00:10:05] We thought we were behind in this internet thing.

[00:10:09] It'd be over before we got there.

[00:10:11] So we sell 5,000 books at $14.95.

[00:10:14] Now we have to give Sherm half.

[00:10:16] OK.

[00:10:17] So we have half.

[00:10:18] That's still good margin.

[00:10:19] I'm fine.

[00:10:19] Still good margin.

[00:10:20] I'm fine.

[00:10:21] We did three editions.

[00:10:22] Sold out three editions.

[00:10:24] In the first book, because you asked for the story.

[00:10:27] You're getting it.

[00:10:27] Yeah, I'm getting it.

[00:10:28] In the first book, we said, listen, if you give us your email,

[00:10:33] I just had this spark of an idea.

[00:10:35] If you give us your email, we promise to send you an update about this book

[00:10:40] every month for the rest of our lives.

[00:10:43] Hello newsletter.

[00:10:44] That's a hard promise to keep.

[00:10:46] Hello newsletter.

[00:10:47] In two years, we had 50,000 emails.

[00:10:50] Oh my gosh.

[00:10:51] In 1998, going into 1999, we sent a note in December of 1998 saying,

[00:10:59] we have this new thing.

[00:11:01] Our book, new book, the 1999 version is coming out.

[00:11:05] We have this thing where you can go on our website and you can give us

[00:11:09] 20 bucks because now it's 20 bucks.

[00:11:11] Oh yeah.

[00:11:12] And we'll take that money and you will get one of the first copies

[00:11:16] coming off of the press of the new book with

[00:11:20] now we've got 400 or I don't know what we had.

[00:11:24] You're like a Beatles fan club by this point.

[00:11:27] We had 5,000 offers in the first couple hours.

[00:11:31] 5,000 money coming in and we hadn't paid the printer yet.

[00:11:36] So we've paid for the book.

[00:11:38] We're making money like crazy but think about this for a moment.

[00:11:44] This is why Mark Maehler kind of burned out.

[00:11:47] Kind of.

[00:11:48] Kind of burned out.

[00:11:49] Every three months, a truck would come to his driveway.

[00:11:55] With money.

[00:11:57] It was pretty much the books.

[00:11:59] With books.

[00:12:00] And he'd fill his entire garage floor to ceiling with cases of books.

[00:12:06] Because this is what's going to happen with t-shirts.

[00:12:07] T-shirts and books.

[00:12:10] And he would go around to every neighborhood kid under 15 and hire them

[00:12:17] to come and help him.

[00:12:19] He had these printer things that you would print out the label.

[00:12:22] You had to put the information in.

[00:12:25] Then you had to print out the damn label.

[00:12:26] Then you had to stick it on the envelope.

[00:12:29] Then you had to put that in the book in there.

[00:12:31] And then you had to put the stamps on.

[00:12:33] And I'm not doing any of this shit.

[00:12:36] And then you had to put them in a car and then take them to the US post office.

[00:12:40] So we're selling books like crazy.

[00:12:42] I think we sold over eight years and eight editions.

[00:12:46] I think we sold north of $300,000.

[00:12:50] People don't appreciate this is before blogs.

[00:12:53] This is before podcasting.

[00:12:54] This was before really any of this was ever available.

[00:12:57] No, it's a book.

[00:12:59] It's paper for us.

[00:13:01] My CEO at JobOptions, Michael Forrest, who you know, he had a vision of we need

[00:13:07] to get in Jerry's book because you had some that got badges for some.

[00:13:12] I don't remember what the badges were.

[00:13:14] It was like a top size.

[00:13:15] Top 50.

[00:13:17] We have to get in the top 50.

[00:13:18] So we did everything that we could.

[00:13:20] Barb Reese, who now works for you was my boss.

[00:13:22] She probably did a lot of that stuff.

[00:13:25] Once we got in, we ordered hundreds of these things.

[00:13:28] We sent them out to all the prospects and we had a big sticker that says JobOptions

[00:13:33] Top 50 Site.

[00:13:34] That was our content marketing strategy.

[00:13:36] That was our direct marketing strategy.

[00:13:39] Your book.

[00:13:39] I love it.

[00:13:40] I will tell you that even in the last two months, I've been on calls, Zoom calls

[00:13:48] where somebody who is a mature TA leader has been around for a long while, 20 some

[00:13:53] odd years, will smile at something and suddenly pick up a book off to the side

[00:13:59] and show her copy from 1998 or 99.

[00:14:03] She had that holstered.

[00:14:04] She was ready.

[00:14:05] It was ready.

[00:14:05] I still have mine.

[00:14:06] I still have mine somewhere.

[00:14:07] It started.

[00:14:09] It really informed us of what we were looking at.

[00:14:13] It helped us to better understand what the technology piece was.

[00:14:17] Now, the one good and smart thing I did was I didn't have to become an expert in all

[00:14:24] of the tools and everything else that was going on.

[00:14:27] But what I did start doing in 1998, 99 was going to different folks who were

[00:14:34] merging in the field like a John Sullivan, like a John Sumsor, and asking them, Rothberg,

[00:14:40] a bunch of these characters, and asking them to write a two or three page article

[00:14:46] about some aspect of how you could better write a resume with all of those things

[00:14:53] digitally and what you should be looking for to do that.

[00:14:56] Or what should you be doing if you're doing IT versus this?

[00:15:01] Or how to deal with high volume?

[00:15:03] Whatever it might be that seemed to be the hot topic at the moment.

[00:15:07] We had 30 different articles, some for the job seeker and some for the employer,

[00:15:14] that were tips on what to do.

[00:15:17] In those days, there wasn't a manual for how to use the internet.

[00:15:21] No.

[00:15:21] We were coming up with it.

[00:15:23] We were building a plane in flight for God's sake.

[00:15:25] Exactly.

[00:15:26] People would fax job descriptions to then be typeset into a computer.

[00:15:30] Yes.

[00:15:31] We had admin that did that all the time.

[00:15:32] Not just jobs, but also resumes.

[00:15:35] Investors would call us and say, we want to talk to you about something.

[00:15:40] Mark would go, here's the price.

[00:15:43] Sit for one hour and you'd have to give us a check on the way in.

[00:15:49] Then we were doing some stuff for employers from a consulting point of view about how they

[00:15:55] could do better with getting their job board, their career pages.

[00:16:02] We did that and then we realized to end this in 2003, our last book,

[00:16:08] we realized that we were obsolete.

[00:16:11] We now have reasonable search engines that could tell you something about

[00:16:18] what are the military job boards?

[00:16:20] What are the government job boards?

[00:16:21] The seconds.

[00:16:22] That kind of thing.

[00:16:23] We realized this is silly.

[00:16:25] We're not dealing with that.

[00:16:26] What is the gap?

[00:16:28] It was at that moment that we realized that a lot of conferences, like this one,

[00:16:33] there were hundreds of people coming and giving talks.

[00:16:37] But in those days, because the internet was still somewhat mysterious,

[00:16:42] the lawyers and PR people in most of these employer companies wouldn't let you

[00:16:47] talk about the real data.

[00:16:49] So every conference had somebody getting up saying,

[00:16:52] we solved this.

[00:16:53] We got 10% reduction in whatever.

[00:16:56] But no, I can't tell you exactly what we did because I'm not allowed.

[00:17:01] I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it was pretty much like that.

[00:17:03] We said, oh, we need a place where people can safely talk to each other about this.

[00:17:09] This is stupid.

[00:17:11] There's nothing proprietary about this, about how to find somebody.

[00:17:15] We should be uplifting what we're all doing.

[00:17:22] We don't have to tell people what our strategy is as a business to dominate,

[00:17:27] but we should be sharing how we change the way in which we share our knowledge

[00:17:35] about how to hire people in a way that everybody benefits.

[00:17:41] The employer, the candidate, the recruiter, etc.

[00:17:45] We should be calling out what works, what doesn't work.

[00:17:48] That was the start of our community, of the colloquium and the rest of Career Crossroads.

[00:17:55] Fast forward 25 years.

[00:18:00] The contrast to me is so fun.

[00:18:03] Back then, it was exciting.

[00:18:05] It was innovative.

[00:18:06] It was fast-moving.

[00:18:07] It was nuts because everybody was implementing new shit.

[00:18:11] We were a part of that.

[00:18:12] That was so cool.

[00:18:13] That still pales in comparison to the shit that's happening today.

[00:18:18] I see what is happening today as equivalent to the confusion and chaos and hype and

[00:18:28] bullshit going on in the late 90s about the internet kind of thing,

[00:18:33] and in relation to talent acquisition.

[00:18:36] Think about the millions of dollars that Monster spent at the end of the 90s.

[00:18:41] Those things just blew up.

[00:18:43] You mean to tell me we're spending millions of dollars on a Super Bowl

[00:18:46] to tell people about how to get a job?

[00:18:48] That's incredible that we're getting that kind of visibility in our profession,

[00:18:52] in our industry.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:53] One of the best days of my life, by the way.

[00:18:57] Are you being sarcastic?

[00:18:59] Did the servers go down?

[00:19:00] No, not ours.

[00:19:01] Ours didn't go down, but sales went through the fucking roof.

[00:19:06] At that point, all I had to do was when I made a call,

[00:19:08] this is Chad from Monster.

[00:19:11] I didn't have to explain anything.

[00:19:12] Where do I send the blank check?

[00:19:14] Exactly.

[00:19:15] And now we have the same level of hype, chaos, and craziness around how AI is going

[00:19:22] to change the rest of the fucking world.

[00:19:26] And fundamentally there's just enough truth in the possibilities that some of that can happen.

[00:19:35] It's just not going to happen as fast as everybody else thinks.

[00:19:38] So I'm going to tell you a little story about you.

[00:19:41] You may or may not remember this.

[00:19:42] About a man named Jerry.

[00:19:44] Let's call it First Wave 1.0 job boards, our jobs online, resumes online.

[00:19:50] Web 2, as you remember, was the social media stuff.

[00:19:53] You had Jobster come in and do a vertical search.

[00:19:57] 2003, 2005, just started.

[00:19:58] That's when I was sort of getting my feet wet in the media side of it.

[00:20:03] And then around 2010, you hit a period of big data, machine learning.

[00:20:12] I was with you and John Sumser.

[00:20:17] I said, wow, these new companies are really exciting.

[00:20:20] I remember you sort of just, hey.

[00:20:23] And I said, these are really cool companies.

[00:20:26] They're using mobile and they're doing all these things.

[00:20:29] And you said, yeah, there's a wave of new companies.

[00:20:32] It's pretty exciting and they will wash away.

[00:20:35] And a new wave of startups will come along.

[00:20:38] And the cycle will continue on and on.

[00:20:40] I was too young at the time to appreciate your comments,

[00:20:43] but I'm old enough now that I'm on that level

[00:20:47] that a lot of this is we've been here before.

[00:20:50] We'll be OK.

[00:20:52] There'll be some that are left over.

[00:20:53] There'll be a lot of consolidation.

[00:20:55] I assume you see the same scenario playing out.

[00:20:58] See it here today.

[00:21:00] The last couple of days.

[00:21:01] There's a lot of effort to increase efficiency

[00:21:08] in terms of what one does.

[00:21:10] It's only going to be an increase in productivity

[00:21:12] if we're doing the right thing.

[00:21:13] And that's part of the problem.

[00:21:16] If you're making something that doesn't work really well

[00:21:19] more efficient, you're just making something

[00:21:21] that doesn't work really well more.

[00:21:24] You know what I mean?

[00:21:25] Well, if you're pushing people faster to the black hole,

[00:21:28] who gives a shit?

[00:21:29] I know.

[00:21:32] OK, listener.

[00:21:33] How can you help your employees become more productive?

[00:21:37] I have answers.

[00:21:38] How about automating manual and repetitive tasks,

[00:21:42] giving meaning to data, then allowing that data

[00:21:45] to actually drive decisions?

[00:21:47] And how about matching people to your jobs quicker?

[00:21:51] Well, wait.

[00:21:52] The chat and cheese has a new LLM.

[00:21:55] No, Cheeseman.

[00:21:56] I'm talking about text kernel.

[00:21:58] Ah, OK.

[00:21:59] That makes more sense.

[00:22:01] What I'm hearing is the groundbreaking concept of,

[00:22:05] wait for it, simplicity.

[00:22:08] Seriously though, seriously.

[00:22:10] Text kernel cuts through the complexities

[00:22:13] like a tortilla chip through some hot nacho cheese.

[00:22:16] Oh my god.

[00:22:17] Really?

[00:22:17] Nacho references already.

[00:22:19] Anyways, text kernel brings efficiency and productivity

[00:22:22] to your operations.

[00:22:24] Text kernel seamlessly unifies your tools and data

[00:22:28] to drive efficiencies and success.

[00:22:31] Text kernel is creating new opportunities

[00:22:34] for your recruitment journey, kind of like adding guac

[00:22:38] to my barbacoa burrito.

[00:22:40] Oh my god.

[00:22:41] How about extracting meaningful insights from data?

[00:22:44] I mean, that's something.

[00:22:45] Swiftly matching people with jobs,

[00:22:48] automating repetitive tasks.

[00:22:50] Who knew such advanced concepts were even possible

[00:22:54] in the land of human resources?

[00:22:58] We did, Chad.

[00:23:00] We did.

[00:23:00] Dude, wrap it up.

[00:23:02] I'm a little hungry.

[00:23:03] Imagine that.

[00:23:04] OK, listener, get ready to use today's tech

[00:23:07] to drive efficiencies and productivity.

[00:23:09] Visit textkernel.com.

[00:23:11] That's T-E-X-T-K-E-R-N-E-L dot com.

[00:23:19] Nachos.

[00:23:23] And there's some of that.

[00:23:25] And part of it is because some of the new stuff,

[00:23:29] they don't do enough due diligence

[00:23:31] in terms of what really works.

[00:23:34] And I won't say his name,

[00:23:35] but I had somebody that interviewed me

[00:23:39] in the last couple days who's the head of a company

[00:23:42] who comes in from outside of our space.

[00:23:46] He so wants to name names right now.

[00:23:48] But he said.

[00:23:49] He's dropping enough hints.

[00:23:51] He said, what is it that I'm not seeing

[00:23:56] that I should be doing or looking forward to for?

[00:23:59] You know, because he was doing a lot of things

[00:24:01] to try to meet with clients, meet with other people,

[00:24:05] learn more about what's going on.

[00:24:06] I said, the only thing I can offer to you

[00:24:10] as someone who's never recruited

[00:24:14] and is in a key position

[00:24:16] is stand behind a recruiter in your best.

[00:24:19] Go to your client, best client,

[00:24:21] ask to go just stand in the trench with a recruiter.

[00:24:25] A good recruiter.

[00:24:26] And watch that good recruiter who's got 25, 26, 35 open wrecks.

[00:24:33] Try to find people on one side,

[00:24:36] engage them on another,

[00:24:38] set up interviews on another and so on.

[00:24:42] And look at how many dashboards they have.

[00:24:44] Look at how their technology is either not integrated

[00:24:49] and or not working,

[00:24:51] but not working faster.

[00:24:53] And I said, when you start looking at what people,

[00:24:57] each stakeholder has to do and go through,

[00:25:00] I said, and talk to some of the candidates

[00:25:02] that are never ever, ever.

[00:25:04] I said, 90% of all of the openings

[00:25:08] that are applied to those candidates hear nothing.

[00:25:12] There's 10% that they're doing

[00:25:15] some good candidate experience.

[00:25:16] God bless.

[00:25:17] But if you get 90% of the candidates

[00:25:20] but if you get nine out of 10 telling you nothing,

[00:25:24] what are you thinking to think about?

[00:25:25] What are you gonna think about

[00:25:28] recruiting as a profession and an industry?

[00:25:30] I said, I would like to leave this industry

[00:25:33] knowing that we are liked by the public

[00:25:36] better than politicians.

[00:25:39] And we're really struggling at the same level

[00:25:42] at this point.

[00:25:42] And it's not like politicians are crushing it.

[00:25:45] But my measure is how the stakeholders perceive

[00:25:49] this profession and this industry.

[00:25:52] Well, that's on us though.

[00:25:53] Not whether or not the vendor thinks that

[00:25:56] you're solving a problem.

[00:25:57] Legacy is important to you.

[00:25:58] Legacy at this time is-

[00:25:59] Not for me, but for us, all of us.

[00:26:02] I take pride in being part of this profession.

[00:26:05] You do too.

[00:26:05] Sure.

[00:26:06] You're living with the fact

[00:26:07] that you've spent your entire life and career

[00:26:11] doing these kinds of things.

[00:26:13] And I would like to think that some of those people

[00:26:16] out there who are benefiting by that,

[00:26:20] by getting a damn job, a good job,

[00:26:23] appreciate that.

[00:26:24] And we still have a ways to go.

[00:26:26] I need another 75 years.

[00:26:27] But talk about...

[00:26:28] Talk about...

[00:26:29] I mean, that is our responsibility

[00:26:31] to be able to ensure that

[00:26:32] we understand the business numbers

[00:26:33] so that we can actually create

[00:26:36] great discussion points, business cases,

[00:26:38] and narratives that get us

[00:26:39] at the big kids table, right?

[00:26:41] We have not done that successfully.

[00:26:44] There are the 10%.

[00:26:46] And if we're lucky, it's 10%

[00:26:48] who are actually doing that today.

[00:26:49] I mean, your colloquiums,

[00:26:52] everything that you do

[00:26:53] is really predicated on doing more of that.

[00:26:56] That's it.

[00:26:57] That's the only reason why I'm still in it.

[00:26:58] I wouldn't be in it for any other reason.

[00:27:01] I could have retired 10 years ago.

[00:27:03] So there's only one...

[00:27:05] This is more fun than playing golf every week.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] Every day of the week.

[00:27:09] So I have a lot more fun.

[00:27:10] I have a lot more patience around it

[00:27:12] because Chris Hoyt is great at what he does.

[00:27:16] And he does all of the heavy lifting

[00:27:18] in terms of making Kirk Crossroads

[00:27:20] a good business that adds value to our members.

[00:27:24] So that's key.

[00:27:25] But it's within that community

[00:27:28] that there's a spark of what you want

[00:27:31] in terms of people who are stepping up

[00:27:33] and changing things a little bit in kind.

[00:27:36] I think the next few years

[00:27:37] is going to see some bigger changes

[00:27:41] than we have seen in a while.

[00:27:44] So I'm kind of optimistic.

[00:27:46] Even though there's so much hype

[00:27:47] about all of this crap with AI,

[00:27:50] I do think the potential is also there

[00:27:53] as people figure out how to read between the lines

[00:27:57] and change things a little bit in kind.

[00:27:59] Because there's a lot of fear, uncertainty,

[00:28:01] and doubt in the recruiting profession.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:03] A lot of layoffs in the last 12, 18 months.

[00:28:06] What's your take on the future of recruiting?

[00:28:09] More with fewer?

[00:28:12] And you talk to a ton of companies.

[00:28:13] What are they talking about

[00:28:14] in terms of bringing recruiting back?

[00:28:15] It's definitely going to be more with fewer

[00:28:18] because the cost issue is going to,

[00:28:21] at least for the near term, be there.

[00:28:25] And I think leaders of companies are aware of that

[00:28:28] and they want to be able to push the lever.

[00:28:30] They're putting their finger on the weight of that.

[00:28:33] And I think it's frustrating a lot of recruiters

[00:28:36] and recruiting leaders,

[00:28:37] but I don't think it's going to change.

[00:28:38] I think leaders are going to have more requirements

[00:28:42] in terms of fixing the shit

[00:28:44] that's wasting time, money, and effort.

[00:28:47] And when you have to move between different dashboards,

[00:28:50] you're wasting time.

[00:28:52] So when you look at the systems that we have in place,

[00:28:57] they've got to become more efficient,

[00:28:59] more automated in a variety of ways

[00:29:00] and we're definitely not there yet.

[00:29:03] And so we'll be behind.

[00:29:05] I think we're going to have to focus in on things like,

[00:29:08] what can we do at the top of the funnel

[00:29:10] to automate more there

[00:29:12] so that when it gets to a point

[00:29:14] where there's enough good stuff,

[00:29:17] we can use more humans

[00:29:19] or apply more time from humans

[00:29:21] to get that piece of it done.

[00:29:23] We're going to have to use assessments

[00:29:25] that we've been reluctant to use in the past

[00:29:28] because assessments are transparency

[00:29:31] and transparency has to be defended.

[00:29:33] Depending on the assessment though, right?

[00:29:36] There's some mumbo jumbo shit out there.

[00:29:38] Let's assume we do the right thing

[00:29:39] and do the right things scientifically

[00:29:42] in making the assessment work,

[00:29:46] be predictive.

[00:29:47] It's got to be face valid.

[00:29:48] Performance driven.

[00:29:49] It's got to be concurrently valid.

[00:29:50] It's got to be performance driven and predictive.

[00:29:53] But the fact of the matter is

[00:29:54] interviews are never going to be

[00:29:57] a reliable method to make a decision.

[00:30:00] At the very best,

[00:30:02] academics have shown over and over again

[00:30:05] that you get no more than a two or three percent edge

[00:30:09] by doing a perfect set of interviews.

[00:30:11] But then when you complicate it

[00:30:13] by saying, oh, how many people have to do an interview

[00:30:17] and how reliable are all those people

[00:30:21] in doing the same kind of approach?

[00:30:26] And if they have to do that over

[00:30:27] and over and over again,

[00:30:29] really, it doesn't work.

[00:30:31] We need to eliminate interviews

[00:30:34] especially at the top of the funnel

[00:30:36] from recruiters and hiring managers.

[00:30:38] That interview should be a data,

[00:30:40] a way to collect good data

[00:30:42] rather than the resume.

[00:30:45] And if we had an AI, auto, whatever that was kind

[00:30:50] could speak 25 languages or 55 languages

[00:30:53] could ask the same questions

[00:30:56] of every single candidate.

[00:30:58] And let's say there's 500 candidates.

[00:31:00] It should be able to do that

[00:31:02] with all of those candidates

[00:31:03] in a very short period of time.

[00:31:06] Collect the data that could be used

[00:31:08] in a consistent, reliable fashion

[00:31:11] and tell the candidate, listen,

[00:31:14] this is a fairer process.

[00:31:15] I'm not human,

[00:31:17] but I'm fairer than any human

[00:31:20] at this stage of the game

[00:31:21] because I'm collecting data

[00:31:22] from every single person, including you.

[00:31:25] And since I'm collecting all data

[00:31:27] from each person the same way,

[00:31:29] it's a fairer way when I decide with a human

[00:31:33] who's going to go forward.

[00:31:34] But I'm going to come back

[00:31:36] and I'm happy to defend

[00:31:38] why you aren't going forward

[00:31:40] and help you think about

[00:31:42] what you could be doing

[00:31:43] to be more competitive in the future

[00:31:45] or what other jobs

[00:31:46] you should be competing for

[00:31:48] that you would be better off in getting.

[00:31:51] I'm telling you,

[00:31:51] we could create a fairer process

[00:31:54] if we start tackling some of these problems.

[00:31:57] Is anybody doing that?

[00:31:58] No.

[00:32:00] I think there are, though.

[00:32:01] There are.

[00:32:01] We're close.

[00:32:02] And it's not the entire swath

[00:32:05] of requisitions that are open,

[00:32:07] but UPS has talked about,

[00:32:10] we're just talking to Matt,

[00:32:11] and they're getting to hire in 22 minutes.

[00:32:16] We were talking to at Paradox

[00:32:19] and they were talking about clients

[00:32:20] getting to hire in 13 minutes.

[00:32:22] So this is happening.

[00:32:25] And again-

[00:32:26] At a certain level.

[00:32:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:32:27] High volume.

[00:32:28] Not all.

[00:32:29] Some are actually starting to actually boost past that

[00:32:32] and that's because they're starting to use

[00:32:33] some of those assessments,

[00:32:34] the performance-based assessments.

[00:32:36] But yeah, I think we're getting there.

[00:32:38] The problem is we have the leaders

[00:32:41] that are up here

[00:32:41] and they're the cream of the crop.

[00:32:43] They're 2% maybe

[00:32:44] and everybody else scratching their heads saying,

[00:32:47] what do we do?

[00:32:47] Oh no, that's too risky.

[00:32:49] What do you tell those people who are,

[00:32:51] it's too risky?

[00:32:52] I'd say it's time that generation turn over.

[00:32:55] Go home.

[00:32:56] Yeah, go home.

[00:32:57] Fire yourself.

[00:32:58] So it's-

[00:32:58] There's a beach with your name on it.

[00:32:59] There's two issues.

[00:33:01] Leaders who are not,

[00:33:02] who are afraid to take on

[00:33:04] some of the tough issues that we're dealing with,

[00:33:07] they need to be replaced long term.

[00:33:10] And they're not going to,

[00:33:11] that's not going to happen generationally

[00:33:14] unless we have a new sense of leaders

[00:33:18] at the TA and at the CHRO level

[00:33:22] who are willing to confront them

[00:33:23] with the kind of data

[00:33:25] that demonstrates that their point of view

[00:33:28] is not workable.

[00:33:29] Not workable for the future

[00:33:31] and that it's going to impact

[00:33:32] the performance of that company

[00:33:35] probably in the long term

[00:33:37] or certainly in the long term

[00:33:38] and maybe even in the short term.

[00:33:40] And I'm convinced that if I were

[00:33:42] that young person doing that,

[00:33:45] I would be doing that

[00:33:46] because I knew how I acted

[00:33:48] when I was at Johnson & Johnson

[00:33:50] and other companies

[00:33:51] but I also know that I probably would get fired

[00:33:54] at least once.

[00:33:56] It's worth it then.

[00:33:57] We've talked about efficiency

[00:33:58] and sort of moving fast.

[00:34:01] Curious your thoughts on the state of DEI.

[00:34:05] We've seen a lot of companies fire,

[00:34:09] heads of DEI programs at companies

[00:34:11] but we also see companies

[00:34:13] that are embracing it

[00:34:14] and benefiting from it.

[00:34:15] What's your take on the state of DEI?

[00:34:17] I wrote an article on that.

[00:34:19] I think part of it is directly

[00:34:22] related to the Supreme Court decision

[00:34:24] that was misinterpreted

[00:34:26] when it focused in on Harvard and UNC

[00:34:30] in terms of affirmative action.

[00:34:32] And the problem is that

[00:34:34] Harvard and UNC

[00:34:36] were basically trying

[00:34:37] to have a diverse freshman class.

[00:34:40] So there's nobody in the freshman class.

[00:34:42] You're starting from scratch.

[00:34:44] And if you're starting from scratch,

[00:34:46] you need to have a yardstick

[00:34:47] for what that diversity should look like

[00:34:50] and if you're starting with zero,

[00:34:52] it should look a little bit like our country.

[00:34:55] So if you put your finger on the weighting

[00:34:58] of race, for example,

[00:35:00] to about 18%,

[00:35:01] which is the percentage of black folks

[00:35:03] in the United States,

[00:35:05] you would be fine

[00:35:06] according to what the Supreme Court

[00:35:08] actually wrote.

[00:35:09] The reason why the Supreme Court

[00:35:11] acted the way they did

[00:35:12] is because Harvard didn't have that

[00:35:14] nor did UNC.

[00:35:16] And so the impact was that

[00:35:19] other underrepresented classes

[00:35:22] were now squeezed

[00:35:24] because of more weighting

[00:35:26] in one or more

[00:35:27] of the underrepresented groups.

[00:35:30] Are you struggling to attract

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[00:36:22] You need to have an understanding

[00:36:25] of what the underrepresentation

[00:36:27] is in our society

[00:36:29] and in your company

[00:36:31] in order to build

[00:36:32] a good strategic plan,

[00:36:34] a yardstick if you will

[00:36:36] for what we're going to do

[00:36:38] in order to have

[00:36:39] a more equitable, if you will,

[00:36:41] from an opportunity point of view,

[00:36:44] company in terms of our hiring.

[00:36:46] I believe that

[00:36:49] that misunderstanding

[00:36:51] of what the Supreme Court did

[00:36:54] from my reading

[00:36:55] and from my discussions

[00:36:56] with some of the lawyers

[00:36:58] who also have been spending time on this

[00:37:00] is that we're going to

[00:37:02] have to start thinking

[00:37:03] more dramatically

[00:37:05] about the kind of data

[00:37:07] that exists out there.

[00:37:09] So 4.7 million people

[00:37:12] started the ninth grade

[00:37:14] this year.

[00:37:15] 86% of them

[00:37:17] went into public school.

[00:37:19] About 7-8%

[00:37:21] went into private school

[00:37:23] and the rest were in

[00:37:24] home school kind of thing.

[00:37:26] On the public school side,

[00:37:27] if we took a random sample

[00:37:29] of 100,000 of just that group,

[00:37:31] they'd look like America.

[00:37:33] I mean ninth grade kids, right?

[00:37:36] Yeah, they're private charters.

[00:37:38] But now if you took a random sample,

[00:37:40] but obviously they're in different places

[00:37:42] and different types of schools.

[00:37:44] There are,

[00:37:45] and so I'll give you a quick,

[00:37:46] just a quick sense of this.

[00:37:49] Something like 87%

[00:37:51] of the public school kids

[00:37:53] will graduate from high school.

[00:37:55] 98% of the private school kids

[00:37:57] will graduate from high school.

[00:37:59] Close to 75% of the high school kids are white.

[00:38:02] 45% of the public school kids are white.

[00:38:06] That's an aggregate US?

[00:38:08] And I'm getting this from

[00:38:09] the National Association

[00:38:10] of Educational Diversity something.

[00:38:14] I can give you the source.

[00:38:15] So I spent several hours on this.

[00:38:18] So think about what starts to happen

[00:38:21] from ninth grade on.

[00:38:22] Two thirds of the kids

[00:38:24] who graduate from high school

[00:38:25] will go to college.

[00:38:27] About two thirds of those

[00:38:30] who go to college will graduate.

[00:38:33] We're down to about 30,000

[00:38:35] out of the 100,000 now.

[00:38:37] So first of all,

[00:38:38] we lost 70,000 people

[00:38:40] who are going to graduate

[00:38:42] from college after six years.

[00:38:44] That's interesting because

[00:38:46] obviously we're trying to get away

[00:38:48] from just saying college degree

[00:38:50] in terms of what that potential is,

[00:38:52] but that's another piece of that.

[00:38:53] Of the 30,000,

[00:38:56] 2,000 will be engineers.

[00:38:58] Of the 2,000 engineers,

[00:39:00] 480 will be mechanical engineers.

[00:39:04] So of the 100,000 people

[00:39:05] starting ninth grade,

[00:39:06] there's 480 mechanical engineers.

[00:39:09] And the reason I go this way

[00:39:11] is because you don't hire engineers.

[00:39:13] You hire a mechanical engineer,

[00:39:15] you hire a high speed packaging engineer,

[00:39:17] whatever it is.

[00:39:18] Right.

[00:39:18] Of the 480 engineers,

[00:39:22] our mechanical engineers,

[00:39:24] 65 are women,

[00:39:26] 28 are Latina, Latino,

[00:39:29] 20 are black.

[00:39:30] Now I'm not making judgments on anything

[00:39:32] because there's a lot of choice in here,

[00:39:33] but somewhere along the line

[00:39:36] there's opportunity and there's outcomes.

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:38] And we as a society,

[00:39:40] but also we as employers,

[00:39:42] need to start looking at where we intervene

[00:39:46] in that sequence from ninth grade

[00:39:49] to college and beyond

[00:39:51] in terms of how we're providing

[00:39:53] more opportunity to increase the pool

[00:39:56] that gives us what we're looking for

[00:39:58] in the long run.

[00:39:59] And I look at companies like Wegmans,

[00:40:02] for example,

[00:40:03] that spend an enormous amount of money

[00:40:06] in hiring interns in high school

[00:40:08] who are at risk for graduating

[00:40:10] and give them jobs at Wegmans after school

[00:40:14] and mentors to help them understand

[00:40:16] the importance of graduating.

[00:40:18] And their outcome is significantly changing

[00:40:22] the percentages of at risk kids

[00:40:24] who graduate from high school

[00:40:26] who then get sponsorship

[00:40:27] and work and everything else.

[00:40:28] Well, they understand their responsibility

[00:40:30] to the community, right?

[00:40:31] Most companies do not give two shits

[00:40:33] about their responsibility.

[00:40:35] They care about shareholder value

[00:40:37] and they don't care about any of that,

[00:40:38] this shit that we're talking about right now.

[00:40:40] How are we going to get that to change?

[00:40:41] Is it just going to be the only way

[00:40:43] that you can actually compete?

[00:40:45] It's a change in society.

[00:40:47] What is the choice that you're making

[00:40:49] in terms of where you want to work?

[00:40:50] And part of it is

[00:40:51] we've got a new generation of folks

[00:40:53] who are coming in,

[00:40:55] which I encourage and engage in

[00:40:58] in terms of them say

[00:41:00] how important it is for them

[00:41:02] to work for a company

[00:41:03] that has some connection to the community,

[00:41:06] some willingness to do that

[00:41:07] and that they personally

[00:41:08] are willing to make commitments

[00:41:10] like that as well.

[00:41:10] That's kind of how our country

[00:41:13] got to where it is in a positive way

[00:41:16] and I think we need to refine that as well.

[00:41:19] So I don't think it's something

[00:41:20] I can do or you can do individually,

[00:41:23] but I do think it's something

[00:41:24] we all have to do collectively.

[00:41:26] I know there's a big rant, but what the hell?

[00:41:28] I'll let you out on this one, Jerry.

[00:41:30] We're here at the Unleashed Conference.

[00:41:31] You've been to a ton of conferences.

[00:41:33] Anything at this one stand out to you?

[00:41:35] Any memorable experiences or takeaways?

[00:41:38] There was a professor I think early on

[00:41:40] in the first day who was talking about AI,

[00:41:44] but was actually doing it

[00:41:46] at the same time he was talking about it.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:48] And he probably is,

[00:41:50] I hope they recorded it and show that

[00:41:53] because that would be the one thing

[00:41:55] that I would look at over and over again.

[00:41:58] So there's that.

[00:41:59] I think as I said,

[00:42:00] there's an awful lot of efficiency.

[00:42:02] I don't see an awful lot of things

[00:42:04] that are changing the game here.

[00:42:06] I see a lot of things that are trying to make

[00:42:08] whatever it is you think you're doing

[00:42:10] a little bit better.

[00:42:11] And I think it's important to realize

[00:42:14] that those of us who have spent time

[00:42:16] looking at this for hours and hours and hours,

[00:42:19] that there's a lot of people

[00:42:20] who are looking at it for the first time

[00:42:22] and they're just about to figure it out.

[00:42:30] So people are coming here

[00:42:31] with different levels of expertise

[00:42:33] and I think it's great,

[00:42:34] but I do think the quality of the attendees here

[00:42:39] is quite high.

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:40] And hopefully they're taking back

[00:42:42] something that they can use.

[00:42:43] And thanks to you,

[00:42:44] the level of quality in our interviews

[00:42:47] has gone up on this show.

[00:42:49] That is Jerry Gandolf Crispin, everybody.

[00:42:52] We are live from the Daxter booth

[00:42:55] at the Unleashed Conference in Vegas.

[00:42:57] Jerry, for those who want to connect with you

[00:42:59] or the organization,

[00:43:00] where do you send them?

[00:43:01] If you Google my name,

[00:43:02] it can spell Jerry with a J.

[00:43:03] You can find me, Jerry Crispin.

[00:43:05] C-R-I-S-P-I-N.

[00:43:07] He'll be in the Airstream.

[00:43:10] And how many hats do you own?

[00:43:12] Probably 30 or 40,

[00:43:14] but I own 10 quality hats.

[00:43:18] So there's only 50 hat makers

[00:43:20] left in the United States for men.

[00:43:23] One is in Cave Creek.

[00:43:24] It's called Watson Hats

[00:43:26] and it's in Phoenix.

[00:43:28] And the other one is in Santa Fe.

[00:43:32] And if anybody wants to go buy those hats,

[00:43:34] it's great, but it's not cheap either.

[00:43:36] Yeah, tell them Jerry sent you

[00:43:38] for the deep discount.

[00:43:40] Discount code Jerry with a G.

[00:43:43] G, that's another one in the can, Chad.

[00:43:45] Thanks, Jerry.

[00:43:46] We out.

[00:43:48] Thank you for listening

[00:43:50] to what's it called?

[00:43:52] A podcast.

[00:43:53] The Chad.

[00:43:54] The cheese.

[00:43:55] Brilliant.

[00:43:56] They talk about recruiting.

[00:43:57] They talk about technology.

[00:43:59] But most of all,

[00:44:00] they talk about nothing.

[00:44:02] Just a lot of shout outs of people

[00:44:04] you don't even know.

[00:44:05] And yet you're listening.

[00:44:07] It's incredible.

[00:44:08] And not one word about cheese.

[00:44:11] Not one.

[00:44:12] Cheddar, blue, nacho,

[00:44:14] pepper jack, Swiss.

[00:44:16] So many cheeses

[00:44:18] and not one word.

[00:44:20] So weird.

[00:44:21] Anywho, be sure to subscribe today

[00:44:24] on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play

[00:44:27] or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[00:44:30] That way you won't miss an episode.

[00:44:33] And while you're at it,

[00:44:34] visit www.chadcheese.com

[00:44:38] Just don't expect to find

[00:44:40] any recipes for grilled cheese.

[00:44:44] So weird.

[00:44:45] We out.

[00:44:46] You've got questions,

[00:44:48] we've got answers.

[00:44:50] Business leadership,

[00:44:51] ownership and sales

[00:44:52] can be challenging.

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