What Happens Years After a Cyclone Hits? (ft. Ruhie Kumar & Surabhi Gajbhaye)

[00:00:00] Today on the Big Story.

[00:00:04] The cyclone Deepvachai hit made its landfall on 15th of June.

[00:00:08] It's been 15 days now and we've pretty much understood the immediate impact for it.

[00:00:13] Like we know that in Rajasthan, which was the worst hit state miraculously, given that

[00:00:19] it made landfall in Gujarat, the worst hit state actually is Rajasthan.

[00:00:23] The coverage around the cyclone, a lot of to be in the picture, I don't want to be in the picture. Like whatever, let's like... Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the big story. Welcome to this another episode of the big story. And after a long time Anjali and I are together on one episode again.

[00:01:40] Because heat waves, you weren't there.

[00:01:42] Mental health, I wasn't there.

[00:01:44] So the duo is back is what people keep saying everywhere.

[00:01:47] Those people are us. Then things have been continuing There was also the violence in Manipur Then there is West Coast protest ended So a lot of things have been happening And Modi ji is in US Yeah, Modi ji is in US So there was a lot to talk about But we've chosen a topic and we've stuck with it

[00:03:00] And today we're talking about cyclones

[00:03:02] Like we all know

[00:03:03] No, it's too late, it's too late

[00:03:07] But that is our plan kind of damage a cyclone can do. But what we want to talk about today is go a step further and talk about what happens years after a cyclone has passed. Exactly. Because, you know, it's a time when we have time. I was in the newsroom be it covid or a natural disaster or in this case a cyclone and a lot of it is because of this thing called climate change. Yeah, like you cannot talk about cyclones and the frequency of cyclones without talking about climate change but like to just give you a crash course if you just India specific but very very relevant to India. Yeah, it's relevant and the effect is also like, I mean, it's a very India specific problem I would say. Not because it only happens in India but in India it has a special place because of the large coastline.

[00:07:00] Yeah, so that is what that is Ruhi to us. Yeah, she is making climate change palatable. Yeah, she is making climate, not climate change palatable because that, I think, I think big, thanks a lot for giving us time during your exams. Oh my god. We don't want to. You didn't know Anjali? I didn't know. She has her exam tomorrow. Oh. Please, let's not have that as a spoiler here. All the best Surbhi, let us start this podcast by wishing Surbhi all the best for her exam.

[00:09:40] Please don't guys.

[00:09:42] I get more stressed.

[00:09:43] Do the listeners DM her and ask her how her exam world. And what is that about? Just like curious ways of talking about cultural problems today or environmental cultural problems together. Is this going to be part of your podcast only, the J-Queen?

[00:11:03] Yeah, yeah, it'll be on my stream.

[00:11:06] Just like a random thing to. This episode just like a previous episode that we did about heat waves is about climate because I personally don't want to stop talking about it first of all. Amazing. We want to bring this back into the conversation. So last time we talked about heat waves.

[00:12:21] This time we are going to to have more cyclones because of how that ocean basin, that side is and how the currents are. And in general, cyclones are not necessarily like, there's this whole thing about like climate change is causing cyclones, I think that's

[00:13:41] fairly strange statement to say, because cyclones have been happening

[00:13:44] since the beginning of time, right?

[00:14:43] It's likely that more low pressure areas are formed. And you can look at any of these international or Indian reports like the IPCC report is

[00:14:47] really the big one that everyone goes to.

[00:14:50] Right.

[00:14:51] Sorry, sorry to interrupt.

[00:14:53] Can you just like give the abbreviation for IPCC?

[00:14:56] Sure.

[00:14:57] It's the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] Okay.

[00:15:02] And they have many different reports.

[00:15:03] There's one on Triosphere specifically, which is on the oceans.

[00:15:05] And there's of course, they came out with the land usage report very recently, which preparedness and you know post like you're missing. So from what I've read 28 degrees Celsius is the threshold right for the ocean surface temperature if the temperature surpasses 28 it would lead to cyclone formation so what has been the trend or in general have you been able to figure out on an average around

[00:16:23] the months of May and June what are the ones that we all follow on Twitter or the international academic space and even from especially from India they are constantly saying that one can say that there is a climate footprint to a lot of extreme events and including cyclones right. So if you are seeing more and more cyclones especially when you see even how IMD talks

[00:17:40] about it in the next 48 hours it will go from a X rating to higher rating.

[00:17:45] Severe to very complicated. So we need to find a finer line in terms of how do we make it cyclone. And that has been attributed to climate change, if I'm not wrong. Yeah, there is a climate scientist called Roxy Kole from India.

[00:20:23] He's on Twitter as well. like you know when the the big cyclones hit Odisha in 1989 and all of that right so that there has been record of that but like again there is this this current called Indian Dipole which was named only in 1999 or 2000. Okay. Because that current, the study only didn't exist before that.

[00:21:44] So then it's hard to understand like only El Nino and La Nina were being considered.

[00:23:01] Not only I mean there are many currents of course I don't I don't want to be murdered by meteorologists The biggest example was the success of Bippa Joy where there was zero death in specifically in Gujarat state which was being stated in the newspapers and everywhere and even being working in humanitarian sector even I was surprised or taken aback that wow we are able to achieve zero mortality during a disaster.

[00:23:04] And Surbhi is that like one of the East and West Coast also? Like Ruhi also said, traditionally, that we have, you know, airlifts and especially we've seen not just in cyclones, even like flash floods and landslides, right, which unfortunately, we know something might happen in the coming months in this is everything that we did right? I guess it was the evacuation process which they did like three days in advance. They had started evacuating the villages and each and every from your work, you can probably add that like how people are trained in order to do that groundwork. And you know, for that crisis mode, because that's different from working in a program, you know, on a ongoing long term thing. So N guess that is what makes the difference also at the same time. So from both of your conversations around rescue and relief efforts, the kind of picture that I am getting is that India is pretty much there. The rescue and relief work that happens

[00:29:42] in India, it's obviously improving, it's getting better as you had, Surbhi you had mentioned that But clearly the impact that that cyclone would have would not go away as fast, right? So what is that impact? What does that impact look like? I want to sort of understand from the both of you. What impact does that cyclone have on the impact of that cyclone? So the immediate thing is that everything is chaotic.

[00:31:01] You have roof fallen, you have broken houses.

[00:31:05] There is a lot of devastation this is how the process happens. It might be sounding very easy right now but it is super chaotic when one has to do it on the ground because and children even don't have books for that matter. Even if they have

[00:32:20] to go back to schools or even if they is some variation of another storm or a cyclone. And essentially I think in India we don't have many studies about this but there is a study in Oman that Thirvi and I came across about cyclones and mental health.

[00:33:40] It's very detailed.

[00:33:41] It's pretty cool because there they have studied like the pattern of what is the emotional

[00:33:45] trauma and impact on people. belonging, your entire community where you live, where your livelihood is, where everything is. Your places of faith, entertainment, everything is there. Right? And trauma like this doesn't sort of leave you even after you're settled. Because this is like a funny thing that I notice about people in Bombay.

[00:35:00] They go back to, know these things and it is so critical for us to know. Have you guys seen this film called Kadvi Hava? It's a really beautiful movie about... Not yet but I've heard about it. Yeah. It's a very nice movie. It also talks about the cyclone in Odisha and how this Ranveer Shorika character becomes like a loan shark of some. Yeah. Very interesting movie about climate.

[00:36:21] And that also reminds me Surbhi in our conversations about this episode only,

[00:36:25] you were only telling me about this

[00:37:28] his wife in the cyclone. So that was a very impactful case study that took my attention personally. What kind of impact people go through because I have never experienced it

[00:37:34] on my own. I never have a personal experience with cyclone. So going through that case study

[00:37:40] where you can see the water reaching up to your roof and then you jumping out of it to physically, mentally in all aspects than the white neighborhoods, right? Same goes for something like Amfan that hit in 2020 in West Bengal where the big buildings and all just had like some minor glass shattering window sort of thing. But the fishing communities right 100 kilometers from there would have something completely different the impact.

[00:39:02] And then that's why it's not important.

[00:39:04] I think we should just comes into picture. It's not like in silo just with that. But I just wanted to make that point to, you know, circle back that whose story is being told and who's telling it. Yeah. And again, if you're talking about rebuilding lives, for people who, you know,

[00:40:22] for people who have jobs, like if it is job, you know, in the same way. So that you are right, it does have a longer timeline. It's not just you can just go back to the sea. They do risking, another cyclone might come, so that would reset that whole process. There was a very interesting story of a beekeeper from Sundarbans a few years back I had read, and it was very... That tells the tale that you're talking about a beekeeper

[00:43:02] whose livelihood was affected because the bees were affected by the cyclone,

[00:43:07] the pollination process, right? in their rehabilitation or in their rebuilding plans? Or where do they stop and be like, okay, this is where our role has ended? And in general, adding to that, how would you guys rate the... How would you guys rate India's performance as a country with these longer term solutions? Because protection that is required. I guess somewhere still in our country, we have this importance of human life takes a front foot in this particular aspect. And then we go back to, you know, the chaos that every disaster leaves.

[00:45:44] Damage. Then somewhere

[00:46:44] defense line, what they call is nature based solution because it is in the nature and it holds the marshy swampy soil together so that the coastline is not completely destroyed.

[00:46:50] That's how the mangroves help.

[00:46:52] So that is necessary.

[00:46:53] On top of that, what's necessary is that not proactively destroying your coastline by making

[00:46:57] some million ports that is now coming up every like, you know, the major ports, minor ports,

[00:47:04] because they are not being made with the idea simpler words because the ports bring a lot of what under the word blue economy a lot of investment and like again in the public narrative there

[00:48:20] is not much understanding on how to save a coastline.

[00:48:23] If you never hear that you hear how to save a forest, how to save a mountain, how to save

[00:48:26] a lake or whatever which is important. more like I was mentioning 1400 crores was the damage on some ports in Saurashtra in Tocte during cyclone Tocte two articles came out of it okay cool so then where does that leave any information on this so the the conversation on coastline protection communities has to be in sync with what cyclones long-term preparedness can be it these are not different conversations

[00:49:44] and this right now it is it's? Isn't the fishing community's job as important as the jobs that the ports will bring? Are you saying one is less important than the other?

[00:51:01] So there's so many factors to be considered, right?

[00:51:04] Also, this also brings me back to the short term response,

[00:52:03] the communities in the long term at the time of the cyclone, these decisions will have to be taken

[00:52:06] much more in the long term.

[00:52:08] Yeah, because just baking them and then realising that

[00:52:11] oh shit, this is now causing more damage.

[00:52:14] I mean, you know, if you pay a lot of tax,

[00:52:16] then what?

[00:52:17] You will be taxpayer money, a lot of it, right?

[00:52:20] So, I mean, come on man, like I pay tax,

[00:52:22] but what do I get?

[00:52:24] So, you pay 500 crores to make the pot

[00:52:26] and then the cyclone will come, that will cause So, I don't think in India, and I wish, whether it's the corporations or ministries or other groups that lobby with these groups, practice saying no to an idea if it doesn't work. If there is no idea proposed, it could be wrong. It could be wrong. A lot of times success is not going through with the idea.

[00:53:41] It's okay.

[00:53:42] Don't do it.

[00:53:43] It's like reminding me of Jurassic Park.

[00:53:46] They were so concerned about whether they could. long term to ensure that life becomes easier while rehabilitation, while this, while people like Surbhi are on ground doing their work, what can we do much more in advance so that, you know, life after an event becomes easier?

[00:55:01] I'm picking out a trick to wait one second.

[00:55:05] It says Surbhi. the building or you know evacuate the building that immediately gets into the reflex action and even in their panic situation then they'll only exit from that particular route so that can be one thing which can be done. Intulcating the culture is one aspect then mentally preparing them. And is it something that is done because I am assuming like this is my curious question

[00:56:20] ki in these coastal areas ke schools something to be taken into consideration because when a disaster happens, these get multiplied

[00:57:43] by three or four a.m. So they were all dead asleep during that particular time. So they still have that impact, like that generation,

[00:59:01] which has actually faced witness as children.

[00:59:04] They were all children at that particular time who have grown up, who are grown ups now.

[01:00:02] especially in women in disaster times, like even post-disaster,

[01:00:06] like there's a lot of unfortunate stuff

[01:00:09] that happens around sexual abuse and survivors.

[01:00:11] So in relief camps or even after, right?

[01:00:14] So safety is a very important thing

[01:00:15] and public space and all of that.

[01:00:17] So I think lots needs to be taken care of

[01:00:19] in terms of sensitivities.

[01:00:21] And like, I was just adding to what Ruhi was saying

[01:00:23] that if the person is belonging to their own communities,

[01:00:27] there is this trust all of that.

[01:01:43] But what does it mean to inculcate actual curriculum around coastlines of what is on the environmental and people's front, right? Whether it's poetry, whether it's art, whether it's... I mean, I'm like, go home and buy these advertising creative copywriters, man. They're just turning out nonsense. Like. The interesting thing is that sometimes that information doesn't travel between the communities, right? Yeah. Yeah, so because I feel we are sitting in a very like different places to understand what's going locally.

[01:04:23] But yeah, pop culture references like if you have your, do you want to ask them the three people, three important influential people we should forward this episode to? That would be interesting. Okay. So we asked this to Aditya as well. Who are the three influential people who you would want to forward this podcast to?

[01:05:43] And the boundary condition is, these are people, Joe, I don't want to watch it. Like whatever, let's like, ignite myself, whatever, controversial. Yeah. Second person would be, I think it needs to go to somebody like, what's his name man? The, wow, kill me. The Baubali director.

[01:07:00] Rajamouli.

[01:07:01] Rajamouli.

[01:07:01] Yeah.

[01:07:02] Rajamouli.

[01:07:03] Yeah.

[01:07:04] Rajamouli.

[01:07:05] Ocean fantasy.

[01:07:06] I don't know.

[01:07:06] I don't know. episode because Delhi doesn't have a heat action plan. So yeah, but he has he has brought some kind. He had tried to bring out a change and contribute towards air pollution control. So I guess this can also be something that can be impactful. Third is a very tricky one.

[01:08:20] I cannot think of a third person at the moment.

[01:08:23] I would I wanted to go.

[01:08:25] I mean, I mean, again, like the president,

[01:09:22] So, if you send it to Dia Mirza, I will send. That actually though is possible.

[01:09:27] Then Dia Mirza can probably forward it to Rajamouli.

[01:09:30] It's a network.

[01:09:34] Six degrees of separation, you can't do it.

[01:09:38] We will establish a full network.

[01:09:40] Great, great. Anything else you have in mind Anjali, Surbhi, Ruhi?

[01:09:45] It was a fun chat.

[01:09:46] What are the three influential people according to you? issue in the next Man Ki Baat or whatever Rahul Gandhi does with his Man Ki Baat. I want to change my influencer, send it to one chef influencer. He will talk about it in a few minutes. Ranveer Brar, we can send it to Ranveer Brar. Me too. Yeah, because in his like some prawn curry recipe he will talk about, because he usually does this storytelling and all anyway,

[01:11:02] in his recipe, so he will do this,

[01:11:04] what he will do with this prawn curry.

[01:11:07] I think we've made a good list of people. I am naughty with.. dude anything rain or water and all I just fight, flight or freeze and I just freeze I have no like defense against rain I will go into a cocoon I will not be able to go into a cocoon I will be able to go into a cocoon

[01:12:21] Even though I am like a water person and I have beaches

[01:12:24] I like going into water not like water coming onto me So I think even the public understanding of the impact of a cyclone is narrow and needs to be widened. And this I would say goes for any natural disasters but more so cyclones because in recent past we have a memory of cyclone coverage. A lot of it is like very, as we were discussing, very visual, very infrastructure based.

[01:13:42] Where at some point we forget that there are people associated with these infrastructures. that PTSD it's almost comparable to like when you hear key army veterans correct yeah they get anxious and all that it's a human story, but it's caused by climate change. And it's not like a very in your face,

[01:16:20] world is changing.

[01:16:22] It's about a person human story with the climate crisis at the backdrop of it. And Joe, a point that we ended on, it's things like these, it's pop culture, you know, events like these, which will make a general person care about these more, right? So I think that is like a very like striking

[01:17:42] thing that is missing all across from a lot of Indian kind of coverage, I would the humans behind all of these events. Like I mentioned, we have made this episode a little later after the cyclone has passed to make sure that whenever this episode pops up on your news feed, you know that, okay, we are looking at something that happens much later

[01:19:00] and it is also just as important to look at and not just when it happened.

[01:19:05] Exactly.

[01:19:07] Interesting. Nice. But does he have to? Like, he can just invite a politician on his show and discuss that. But that's what I'm saying, all of this, like, even with our episode, we can make this public discourse. We can cause conversations around it. The actual signatory power. Like, tangible ki... Election lada? Ya mangrove banega hi ischis par sain karne wale hum to nahi hai.

[01:20:23] Hashtag mangrove yahi banega.

[01:20:25] Yes.

[01:20:26] Election lada anjali?

[01:21:26] and text boxes, Twitter, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music. Just tell us what are your thoughts about cyclones and what would you want the larger public's contribution to be in terms of climate action.

[01:21:38] Because I think that is one of the plans. And we will try to keep doing more and more things about climate change. But if you want us to speak about something else, do let us know. And we will try to do an episode about it. Yes, this was Prateek. And this was Anjali. And we'll see you in the next one. Thank you. Bye bye.

[01:23:00] Bye bye.