From Vision to Legacy: Ameera Shah's Journey with Metropolis Healthcare

[00:00:00] I went through all the different routes. I went through lawyers, psychologists, interior designer, fashion designer, jewelry designer, architect. Doctor was never one of them. I was not interested in medicine. You know, the higher you go, like in typical other industries, you see less and less women. Having a woman leader or a woman at the helm gives a lot of women a feeling like they are safe and they're protected, that they have a place to go. But I think healthcare comparatively provides a far more neutral and balanced ecosystem.

[00:00:27] If somebody in the family thinks I'm not a good wife or I'm not a good mother, it just destroys everything. And that rule and benchmark is very different than it is for men, as we already know. And I think if you can't walk the talk, then honestly, nobody's following it. Welcome to Stree At The Table, where we celebrate women who are not just breaking barriers but redefining them.

[00:00:55] Today, we are honoured to have with us Amira Shah, a visionary leader in the world of healthcare. As the Managing Director of Metropolis Healthcare, she has transformed a single diagnostic lab into a global powerhouse, setting new benchmarks in innovation, trust and quality. A graduate in finance from the University of Texas at Austin, and an alumnus of Harvard Business School's OPM program. Amira's journey is nothing short of inspiring.

[00:01:25] Her passion for women's leadership and healthcare innovation has earned her accolades like Ernst & Young's Entrepreneur of the Year in Healthcare, and spots on prestigious lists like Forbes Asia's Asia's Power Business Women. Today, we'll dive into her incredible journey, the challenges of navigating a male-dominated industry, and her vision for empowering women in leadership.

[00:01:48] Amira believes that true entrepreneurship isn't about profits, but creating value and a legacy, something she's done with unmatched resilience and empathy. Let's welcome Amira Shah, 2's 3 at the table. Welcome, Amira. Thank you so much. And thank you for being so gracious and inviting us into your home for this discussion. Always welcome. Thank you. I'm going to get down really into the thick of it and start with where it all began.

[00:02:15] You have a family that's been deeply rooted in the healthcare system in different ways. For you, was it a natural walk into, you know, Metropolis, into healthcare, or was there a journey for you on, you know, wanting to do multiple things? And how did you end up here? Oh, it's totally a journey. It was definitely not a sort of, it's not like my mother was four when she knew she wanted to be a doctor. Whoa. I was certainly not like that.

[00:02:41] I went through all the different routes of, I went through lawyer, psychologist, interior designer, fashion designer, jewelry designer, architect. I mean, there was a whole route that most of us probably go through. Doctor was never one of them. That was the only thing I was pretty clear about that I was not interested in medicine.

[00:03:00] But as I sort of grew older, I realized that one of the things that I had heard from a very young time, from my mom, especially, who always talked a lot about social impact and taking care of community. So it was very interesting growing up. She would not say, oh, I have to go because I have meetings to the office or to my clinic, or I have to see patients. She was actually telling us without mentioning names, obviously, the kind of cases she dealt with every day.

[00:03:26] Or today I saved the life of a woman who had triplets and who one child died and this happened and that happened. So we actually could feel the impact she made on a daily basis or the social work she did. So I think when I was about 20 and 19, 20 in the US, and I started thinking about what I want to do next, the social impact and taking care of community was something that came to me very naturally because of her.

[00:03:53] And I came back to India with the idea of saying, look, I want to be able to contribute here. And I could never imagine myself in luxury goods or selling, frankly, something which I felt wasn't essential to life where you were nurturing people. And I thought, okay, healthcare seems to be a great opportunity. It's definitely somewhere you nurture, you take care of people. It has an impact. And that's how I decided to get into healthcare. I evaluated my mom's clinic.

[00:04:22] I evaluated my dad's lab. And I said, look, are these either of them of my interest? And frankly, neither of them I was very passionate about. But I felt there was an opportunity to take what my father had been doing for so many years, running a really good quality path lab and really take it to a scale of a chain that we had not seen in India before. And fortunately for me, he had the same vision in his mind of what he wanted to do. And he always felt like he had not been able to do it, but the desire was still there.

[00:04:51] And that's when we really then changed the name from Dr. Shah's lab to Metropolis to make it an institution. It was still a single lab, but at least had a name. And then the journey began on how do we sort of grow it from there. So it's been about 24 years. Yeah. And what is beautiful about your journey is that it's rooted in empathy. It's a there's a very deep sense of empathy, of social impact.

[00:05:14] But there's also a very, very not clinical, very, very technically sound, very leadership oriented mind that wants to do bigger, better, bolder things. And now you're in the executive chair. That's right. And and in this whole journey, there are many women in your workforce. There are many women in, you know, how does being in the executive chair give you a sense of, you know, what women face in the workforce? And how do you operate out of that position of power?

[00:05:44] Look, I mean, we have almost 40, excuse me, 6% women in our workforce, you know, that means out of almost 6000 people, that's a very significant number. These women are naturally in health care because you will see nurses, you will see technicians, you'll see doctors, you know, they're full of women as well. So that's something that comes very natural to our industry, because health care provides a safe space for them to work.

[00:06:08] It's a space where they can bring their strength of compassion, of nurturing, you know, and gives them a sense of purpose. Right. And thankfully, it pays them well. But, you know, the higher you go, like in typical other industries, you see less and less women. Yes. And that's something that obviously continues to bother me, where I feel like we need to make sure that at every level, women are well represented. You can't do this artificially. You can't force it down people's throat if they're not capable.

[00:06:33] But to try and find the women who are really capable to put them into your leadership teams at every level, I think is important. We're definitely working towards making that a reality. The second thing is about creating an ecosystem where women truly feel like they have an equal opportunity, they can survive and thrive, not just because of the policies, but because of the culture. Yeah. And the culture gives them the space to be able to really reach for the stars, do the things they want to do, balance their lives. So we've obviously tried to do that as well.

[00:07:02] I think often having a woman leader or a woman at the helm gives a lot of women a feeling like they are safe and they're protected, that they have a place to go. And if tomorrow something went wrong in their environment, they have a call, they can pick up somebody and call somebody. So, you know, that comes very naturally in our environment as well. But, you know, at the end of the day, look, merit, performance, capability are the base and everything else is going to be an adder.

[00:07:27] Absolutely. But are there any structural issues that are very unique to your industry? Like when we see women in workforce overall, whether it's time, whether it's work life balance, you know, home supportive structure, supportive corporate policies, peers, mentorship, we keep talking about it.

[00:07:47] But particularly in the healthcare system, one reason why I see from a distance women thrive is because the empathy, the EQ is high, the intuitive intelligence as well complemented with emotion is a very high power resource. But we still see the same problem that as they rise, while with more experience, they should have been more valuable. You see lesser of them. Is there something particularly pertinent about the healthcare system that makes that happen?

[00:08:17] Not really. I mean, honestly, if anything, healthcare should be an advantage versus a disadvantage. Absolutely. Unlike some sectors, which are like you have to be here, you know, 14 hours a day and, you know, you've got to really show your grind, like in every alpha sector, like a financial sector, for example, I think healthcare comparatively is provides a far more neutral and balanced ecosystem for women to thrive in. Yeah.

[00:08:38] I think two, three things happen, right? I mean, I think it's a combination of three things. I think one is about our culture, our Indianness that doesn't necessarily value women on their accomplishments, but values women more on their family relationships.

[00:08:56] So, right. And, you know, simple, right? I can be very accomplished in my professional space. But if somebody in the family thinks I'm not a good wife, or I'm not a good mother, it just destroys everything. And that rule and benchmark is very different than it is for men, as we already know. Absolutely.

[00:09:13] Right. So I think that's one thing. And therefore, women generally, one, for the feeling that comes from themselves. And second, for the external validation, we land up there for feeling like I have to show I'm a good mother and a good wife and a good daughter and a good daughter first. Yeah. Everything else can come second. That plays very subconsciously, I think, in all of us. And the minute we feel we are in any way compromising on the first priority, we're very quick to leave the second priority. Yes.

[00:09:40] Right. So I think that's one thing. The second thing, which is a reality is, you know, the primary caretaker at home for most kids is still the mother. The primary take care of the home is the wife or the daughter-in-law. And juggling all of this is tough. Yeah. Until the time the guys come up and start taking equal responsibility or the women demand the guys take equal responsibility, the same going to truly change. Absolutely. And again, the career becomes, you know, sort of the nice to have, but not the must have. Absolutely.

[00:10:07] Right. So I think there's just too many cultural things at play. And while we can provide, and I'm talking about only urban metros here, while we can provide creches and infrastructure and all of that, and it helps. Because if you can take your child to work, you know, and you can see your child every couple of hours, it makes all the difference. Yes. It makes all the difference. Absolutely.

[00:10:26] Right. So that, those things I think make a real difference. But when we did a survey in our organization a few years ago, and we said, hey, how many women here would like a creche? 95% said we don't care for it. Really? Yeah. I was shocked. I was shocked. I was like, what? No. No. And I'll tell you why. Because the women in our organization, most of them are at mid-levels or lower levels, and they all travel by train. So the first point is, how do I bring my child to work? Right.

[00:10:56] I can't bring in a local train. Right? So I'd rather leave the child at home with my mother-in-law, rather than do dhatka dhukki and bring my child, a six-month baby to workplace and then leave them there. Absolutely. Right? So I think it's not just then the creche. Like that can work well for women who've got cars. But it doesn't work well for women who are coming by public transport. Such an important point. Yeah. So there are so many more things to actually think through in the design phase versus just one element.

[00:11:25] Yes. Absolutely. You made such an important point. And when these conflicts and these problems kind of start emerging as women navigate lives, they start doubting themselves even more. And that doubt creeps into their work life.

[00:11:39] And we also see so many women who can be leaders, but who have self-doubt and who hesitate. And that's an opportunity lost. In your journey, you've spent 24 years this way. There must have been times when doubt was an integral part of your process as well. What are some of the ways you hacked that?

[00:12:00] See, firstly, I want to just think about things not in black and white, but in graves. We think of confidence as white. We think of self-doubt as black. Frankly, both are extremes of the same coin. Right. Right? A very confident man, which most tend to be, even if they don't have the substance, tend to be very confident out of no base. But just it's there. Right? Why? Because their whole life, even when they were young, parents, everybody has told them, you can, you can, you can.

[00:12:29] And for most of the girls, we've told them, you can't, you can't. Why? Why? Justify, defend, etc., etc. Right? So that's become the DNA. Yeah. But frankly, if you ask me a balanced human being, be male or female, requires both. You require enough confidence to move forward and to act. Yeah. But you require enough self-doubt to pause, to question yourself, to be aware, to think about your action, to think whether you really genuinely have the substance to do it. And frankly, I think men and women are both on extreme ends. Yes.

[00:12:59] So I think all of us have to attempt to find that balance, that midway between confidence and self-doubt, because self-doubt is useful. Self-doubt makes you pause. To say, I'm putting up my hand to be the president of this country. Hey, do I have the capability? Right? Yes. And what do I do about it? I may want to. I may think I'm a rock star, but am I really?

[00:13:21] Right? So to me, self-doubt is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. We as women take it too far by allowing it to paralyze us. Now that is our reaction to self-doubt. Correct. And if we can adapt our reaction to self-doubt in a more balanced way, use it as a tool to caution, use it as a tool to pause, to reflect, rather than as a tool to stop it.

[00:13:46] Yeah. I think it's actually a great tool to have. So my way of dealing with it, and I've had a large amount of self-doubt my whole life. It may not appear so, but I would say the only time, the time, the last seven, eight years of my life, I've had less self-doubt than I ever had before.

[00:14:06] But even before I appeared extremely poised, extremely sorted, my friends always told me, you're so sorted, you're so sorted. And I was like, inside, you have no idea what's happening. Right? Like, I don't know how to make this decision because I couldn't hear my own voice. Yeah. The voice I could hear with my parents, my teachers, you know, ex-boyfriends, ex-this one, ex-that one, all telling me, you can't do this, you can't do that, this is not possible, that's not possible. And that became my voice.

[00:14:33] And the only time I could actually try to find a better balance was when I took on and confronted things that I was deeply afraid of, which were actually my deepest fears. And I confronted them head on and said, I'm going to do exactly what is my fear and try to come out on the other side of it, hopefully unscathed and surviving it. That's when you build confidence. That is incredibly brave.

[00:14:59] Right. And I think most of us, when we have something we are scared of, we don't want to think about it. We don't want to deal with it. We don't want to confront it. We just want to run away from it. And that actually increases the fear. Because every time you run away from something you're scared of, your fear only doubles. Because you're basically telling that thing you're scared of that you're more powerful than me. Yes. You have control on me. Yes. The power is not with me.

[00:15:23] But the minute you confront it and you're able to come through it, you suddenly realize, hey, I'm the one with the power. Right. And that's what changes the confidence versus self-doubt. Yeah. Contribution. You make such an important point. In fact, you know, I'd seen you first time about a decade ago and you were giving a keynote speech at the BSE. There was an event at BSE and you were giving it. And I remember the first thought that came is you're so put together, like as if you have all the answers on your fingertips.

[00:15:53] Because there is this, you know, fewer people manage that. The aura that you have all the answers. But there is a price one pays. There is a journey to coming to that point. And what you said is very, very important that unless we confront our fears, how do we get on the other side? And yeah, but as you as you have navigated so many years and you've seen many leaders, men as well as women, is there something that apart from the EQ,

[00:16:20] is there something that we women inherently have as an asset that we can tap as we become more important, more, you know, in the limelight, more in positions of power? You know, I think women fundamentally have a resilience and a emotional strength that actually I find, you know, not everything generally, right? It's actually quite high.

[00:16:48] But we only show it and we tap into it when it comes to our children. Right? When it comes to somebody we love very deeply, our parents, you know, maybe our husband if we love them. Right? It comes in when you really love somebody deeply. Yeah. But it doesn't come in for ourselves. Right? We don't want to tap into that. And again, it's because it goes back to what we were talking about.

[00:17:12] We've been told our whole lives, either this word I hate when people talk about their daughters, bechari, bechari, is helpless, you know, can't do this, can't do that, she's struggling, she's suffering, she's this, she's that. But, you know, we're not actually giving that sense to the woman that you're not helpless. You actually have so much in your hands that you can do that you just have to take the reins off and take that step forward. And we've actually taught our daughters to run away from action and for somebody to constantly save them. Yes.

[00:17:42] But maybe what we've actually taught our daughters is that the only person who doesn't matter is you. Absolutely. And that is why we... Take care of everybody around you. Absolutely. Take care and fight to death for your children, for your family, for things, everything external. That's right. But when it comes to you, you can go hungry, you can last hungry, you don't... So that's a lesson that we've been, that's been bred deeply inside. And look, that's actually true.

[00:18:10] Women are the only gender that actually have the ability to sacrifice and give every part of us for the people we love. And that's an amazing quality. Yes. It is an amazing quality that we must tap into. Yes. Because nobody else has it. Yeah. Right? In the animal kingdom, in the human kingdom. Yes. It's true. Yes. The question is, how do we also do it for ourselves? Yeah. Right? And not put ourselves last in everything that we do. Yeah. And I think that resilience, that emotional strength exists. It's just then about, you know, taking a bit of it.

[00:18:40] Yeah. And I think if we do that, women, you know, we can actually really land up doing things which are truly purposeful, truly impactful. I mean, to me, it causes me so much sadness. I see so many of my friends, and you probably see as well, in 40s, in 50s, who the kids have grown up, gone away, college or otherwise. They're living their own lives. Husbands are busy in their work, in their purpose. They're feeling purposeless. Yes. Devastated. Totally devastated.

[00:19:09] Their entire core of emotion, of everything they spent their time on, makes them feel irrelevant today. Yeah. And they're struggling to say, hey, what do I do with my life now? What do I mean? Who am I? What is my identity? Yes. And it's a tough place to be. But we all have to realize that it's not anybody else's fault. It's the choices we made. Yeah. It's the choices we made to focus on these two or three or four other people. Yeah. And now those people have their own lives as they rightfully should. And we are left with nothing in our hands. Yeah. Right? A lot of what you're saying has to do with how we raise girls.

[00:19:39] How much of it will be impacted if we also raise our boys in a particular way? Hugely, right? Because, I mean, finally, society is an outcome of both. It's an outcome of, you know, not giving the deep entitlement that men have to them and giving them a little bit more fair, realistic expectations of their life and the role they have to play. And really presenting women and men not in these very bracketed roles of breadwinner and homemaker

[00:20:07] or provider and nurturer and whatever. Yeah. But tapping into the fact that men also have an ability to nurture. They also have an ability to be emotional. Women also have an ability to be rational. We don't have to be typecast into these roles and live them for the rest of our lives. I agree with you. Some of the most empathetic people I know have been men. Absolutely. My husband. You know, he's superbly empathetic. His ACQ is so high. And I mean, he's as much if not more of a nurturer to our three kids than I am.

[00:20:37] Yes. We are almost telling our children that you have to be a particular kind. You have to be hard if you're a boy. You have to be soft if you're a girl. And therefore, as women take on risks or even, you know, like you said, that it was for you, you know, something that hit you, that both your parents and your both your parents have different businesses and different works and you can put together something unique out of it. Now, that's a very important decision.

[00:21:03] When a lot of times women also don't make these audacious claims and work for it because of the risk of failing, because simply being in the spotlight and doing something that's not been done before gets more scrutiny, gets called out in more ways, gets criticized. In your professional journey, apart from that first one, is there a risk that you took that you really thought, you know, might not work out, but still do it? There.

[00:21:33] For sure. I mean, you know, there have been risks of force along the way, but I would say the biggest one, you know, one was, of course, to say, I'm coming back to India and I'm going to build this. That was the first one. The second, you know, one, which I would say is less of a risk along the way was to say, look, I'm going to invite external capital and people into the business. That was the second one, but much smaller in nature. And the third big one, I would say the biggest one was 2015 for me, where I was in a very sticky situation with a hostile investor.

[00:22:04] And, you know, this particular gentleman had just made my life miserable for 10, 15 years. And business was struggling more than me, because, you know, when you have people at the board level who are not in line with where you want to go, that conflict, unfortunately, goes down to the nth level. Yes. And that's where Metropolis was. It was stuck in conflict. And even though we were growing and moving forward, we were not unshackled to really do all the things we wanted to do.

[00:22:31] And I just decided and said, look, I'm not going to keep Metropolis shackled like this anymore. I'm not going to keep myself shackled like this anymore. And I have to get out of the situation. But he and I had an equal shareholding on the board, which was a minority shareholding. So it was a difficult situation to be in. Long story short, through many events that happened. I finally decided to take a personal loan of 600 crores.

[00:22:55] The company was valued, by the way, at the time at about 2000, which in 2001, when I started building, it was about 15, 20 crores of valuation, but seven crores of revenue. So we were valued at about 2000 crores in 2015. And I took a loan of 600 crores from KKR personally. I pledged 100% of my shares.

[00:23:20] And I bought over Warburg Pincus' shares, which was about 27%. And I went from 36 plus 27 to about 63% as majority owner in the business. But I was saddled with a humongous debt, which I had no way to pay interest on. And it was at a 20% interest rate. So I was in a not so easy situation. I took a massive risk.

[00:23:48] But I'll tell you the two, three things I did that helped me. Yes. So one, I came from a family. I don't come from a business family. I come from a doctor family. We are not in the business of taking loans, taking debt, taking big punts. No. My parents earned 100 rupees. We spent 20 and we saved 80. Yeah. Right. So that was the mindset. Never to take any debt. So this was the first time in my life that I was ever taking debt from anybody. And then at this interest rate and numbers, right? And I was doing it on a business, which I was punting everything on.

[00:24:16] So my biggest fear and what could go wrong was that, of course, I calculate wrong. I can't pay the interest. I can't pay the loans. My shares are all completely gone. Or the business doesn't do well. I have no way to pay the interest. And I lose everything. And I not only lose everything of mine, I lose everything of the whole family. Because I manage the whole family's wealth, right? The upside was that, hey, if I pull this off, then I now own majority of this business. I'm unshackling Metropolis. It can go on to become, live its own destiny.

[00:24:47] I enjoy the process much more. And, you know, we create more shareholder value. We create more wealth for everybody else and for ourselves. What were the obstacles along the way? The first obstacle was, you know, how do I ensure the business does well? Because that's the fundamental, right? If I have to pay interest, it has to come through the dividends of the company. Which if the company doesn't do well, I ain't getting any dividends. Second, how do I make sure I'm not stuck in legal litigation and conflict?

[00:25:16] Because if that happens, it stagnates the business. So what I did was I remember creating a huge, I think this big chart paper. I'm not joking. Literally chart paper, not an Excel spreadsheet. And I wrote down on it some nine, eight or nine scenarios of what all can happen. Scenario A, B, C, D, and each of them different pros, you know, and then I wrote the pros and cons. And I put probabilities for each of them. So what I'm trying to say is that the mistake we make when we think of anything in the future,

[00:25:46] our brain goes, what if this happens? What if that happens? You're right. What if this happens and that happens? Let's write it down. And let's quantify if this happens, what does it mean? Yeah. So if scenario A happened and the company did only 15% growth instead of 20% growth, what did it mean for my profit? What did it mean for my dividends? Could I pay the interest or not? Yeah. The minute you start quantifying risk, right?

[00:26:11] It actually gives you a rational discussion rather than an emotional fear of can't know. Yeah. What if, what if, what if. That what if you can never answer. So that was one thing I did which really helped me, which was quantify risk and make it a rational decision. Right. There's no shirking hard work. I worked a year and a half, probably 16 hours a day. I woke up at four o'clock every morning in a panic because I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing? I may lose everything. Yeah. The way to deal with the panic, the panic is natural.

[00:26:41] The anxiety is natural. But you have to find a way to deal with it. The way I dealt with the panic was I played tennis one hour a day. And that really helped me. Yeah. Because for one hour your brain is not thinking about this situation constantly. And you're giving your brain a break to say, let's just focus on the ball and hitting it as hard as you can. Yeah. The physical energy release, the physical serotonin that comes in your brain from exercise, as well as just giving your mind a break for an hour.

[00:27:10] I'll tell you, these two things really helped me. And third, I reached out and asked for a lot of help. I never grew up with mentors. I never grew up in a business family. I didn't have kakas, uncles who could help me. But I reached out to people who I thought I respected. And I said, hey, help me understand how I can do this smarter. And I got good advice. You know, I remember Deepak Parekh told me, and he was probably the only person who supported me. Everybody else told me, Ameera, you're crazy. You're better in the house and you're going to fail. Right? And they were saying it from good intent.

[00:27:39] So I took it with good intent. But he said, let's plan, let's think, let's think. And while I didn't get any money from him, I got great feeling of support. Yeah. And he told me, he said, you're about to take the most massive leap you're ever going to take in your life. You need a small safety net. Please take out X amount of money from your business through dividends and keep it as a safety net. Because I didn't even have two crores of liquidity for the whole family. Yes. Right? So I was taking a 600 crore loan, but I didn't even have two crores of liquidity.

[00:28:08] So he said, please take out X amount of money. Put it aside in the bank. Don't put in anything risky. Put in a bank deposit and just keep it. And it was amazing. Yeah. By creating that small safety net, it really allowed me to fly. You know, how many things you have covered in this anecdote. You've talked about the need to have a mental balance, the need to have physical, you know, strength to manage risk,

[00:28:32] a balanced approach to fear management, a male ally who has already navigated all of it. There's like so many ticks that we keep talking about. And that too, coming from an environment that wasn't, it wasn't a business family. It wasn't. So there's a lot of intuition that you also followed and kept checking yourself. So there's just like lessons and lessons in how you executed it. Seeking wisdom from others.

[00:28:57] You know, a lot of times I find, you know, a friend of mine is going through a very difficult business navigation. And three times I reached out to her. She's not a very close friend. Three times I reached out in the last six months and said, hey, if you want any help, let me know if you want any help. And she never reached out. She finally came and chatted with me. And at the end of it, she's like, I don't know why I didn't reach out. I think there's so much, you know, help I can get. Why don't people reach out? And in particular, why do women hesitate so much to reach out? I think people don't reach out because they're not sure of everybody else's agendas.

[00:29:27] People are suspicious that, oh, what if somebody guides me the wrong way? Second, I think they are nervous sometimes by things that they see. It's like this lady I was talking about, for example, had signed an NDA. Right? She said, I can't talk to anybody. I was like, listen, dude, you know, it's good you're being so sincere. But you can't be so this, you're not going to take help on something you're doing. It's the most important thing in your life. It's okay. Yeah.

[00:29:53] So I think it's a lot of hesitation for maybe just not feeling the confidence to say, hey, I can go and take help from something. That's true. And as you lead, again, you said 6,000 people. How do you bring some of these cultural and these, this has a part of the culture.

[00:30:14] You are managing a diverse team to ensure that leadership, women and men, own up, act, leave their insecurities. How do you as a leader kind of set the benchmark for them? Look, I mean, I think a lot of it is some of it will happen through personal conversations of sharing stories, sharing journey, understanding their journey, you know, just connecting in an authentic way. Some of it comes out of over communicating to the larger team.

[00:30:40] But I think culturally, at least at Metropolis, if I look at it, you know, what has been most important to me, and I'm not talking about some of these things, but I'm saying what's been most important to me is, you know, I started building this business with the purpose of taking care of people. And, and therefore having a positive impact in society. You can't take care of people if you're not true to what you do. And in our business, what is the most true we can be, is when we give authentic truth about what's happening in your body to you.

[00:31:09] And we do our best, we try every possible thing to do it in the best way we can. That's all that people need from us. Right? Now, what does that mean? It means practically when you have a choice between enhancing your profit and enhancing your quality, what do you choose? Quality. You choose quality. When it comes to between saying, you know, choosing people who are working for the right reasons, versus choosing people who are working only for a short term performance, what do you choose?

[00:31:38] So it's, it's the culture is about the choices you make every day, what you demonstrate as a leader in your actions, what you, you giving them choices in terms of behavior and rewarding the right ones and removing the wrong ones. And I think if you can't walk the talk, then honestly, nobody's following it. Nobody's following it. So really the, the responsibility has to start with us and it stays with us till the time we're in that position of leadership. Absolutely. And then choosing people accordingly.

[00:32:05] My CEO, for example, came from a non-healthcare background. I was very nervous, right? Because all the other three candidates I looked at when I'm selecting a CEO from healthcare. And this guy was from telecom. But I decided, you know what, the time before this, I recruited on for healthcare and it didn't work out so well for me. This time I'm going to recruit for values. Beautiful. Doesn't matter what the domain is. I'm going to recruit for values. And that's exactly what I did. And I'm very happy with my choice. Because, you know, he's got a learning mindset.

[00:32:35] He's humble. He is, is open about the things that are not going well. And I think the minute you, and you want to do the right thing. If you have these basic cultural value system alignment, now everything else, everybody can learn. Absolutely. You clearly are one person who owns her decisions and who's, who's got, I mean, you're, you're very clear on what you want. And maybe you won't know the path very well, but you know what you want.

[00:33:00] In this whole journey, how, have, have you also come across being mansplained or being, you know, spoken to? Of course. Of course. It happens all the time. So how would Amira manage it? You know, in different ways, depending on the context. Look, I've been in situations where a partner in a country, a 75 year old man I was having dinner with because for business was hitting on me.

[00:33:28] I've had a situation where, again, in another country where a guy I've gone to seek advice from as a CA kept looking at my junior manager because he was a guy and couldn't look at me and talk to me. I mean, all of us have been in these, enough of these situations our whole life. I've had customers who don't give me business, right? Because I'm female. And because actually they would like a friendship or something more with me and they don't want to complicate that equation. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[00:33:56] So you see all types. Right. So I think it's about navigating based on the situation. Two things. One, I would never do anything I don't want to do. Number one. I would not go for dinner with somebody I don't want to go for just because. Yeah. There's potential business. There's potential business, et cetera, et cetera. Number one. If anybody's behaving inappropriately, depending on the ego of the guy, I would shut it down softly or directly.

[00:34:24] If it's a customer with a high ego, I would do it softly. If it's a vendor with a big ego, I'd probably do it hard. I would love to be a flyer on the wall. So I think, you know, I think the important thing is that we navigate with grace. We navigate with self-respect. We navigate with smartness. You can't say one style suits every situation. It doesn't work. Yeah.

[00:34:54] So for decades now, and especially if I limit this, the scope to the last three decades, and you've been an active, growing leader in the last three decades. Women were almost not there. Then they were there. Then things like having women in the boardrooms are there. Grin and take it was one of the ways women have navigated for a long time because it was important to be in the room. Has something changed in women leadership over time?

[00:35:22] Has some of the hacks changed? Have some of the performances, the way women navigate themselves? Is anything very positive for the future in terms of how women are able to navigate power, hold their own? And this is a broader question from an observation. Look, again, I think it depends on your stage.

[00:35:42] I've seen women who have made it in terms of reputation, in terms of success, in whatever field they are in, have gotten bolder because the ecosystem allows it. So an independent director as a female who may have, you know, 10 years ago been more grin and take it, been softer, be more diplomatic on the board, etc. Now they are standing up like bulls and saying, buddy, this has happened, this doesn't work, this works.

[00:36:08] Very openly and sharply and that's acceptable because they know they've made it and they're valued. Now the question is not, let us go and let us go. Right. You see women who are still trying to make it, will follow a different route, will still follow a grin and take it, will still follow this, but they'll not grin and take it anymore just lying down. They'll probably grin and hear it, won't confront it at that moment, but will then behind the scenes try to navigate it in a way that still gives them some comfort.

[00:36:38] Yeah. Yeah. I think it depends, it's still a lot about what stage you're at. The difference with men is at any stage they're at. The bro club works. Right. Yeah. The bro club works and in most cases they won't take it at any stage. Yeah. I think that's the difference. That is it. And what is some of the misconceptions that people usually have about when we observe women in positions of power?

[00:37:01] Or like my, I wouldn't call it a misconception, but I still, I mean, you were talking about 2015 and I think I saw you around then when you looked your most put together for me. Okay. And now I hear four o'clock morning panic attacks. Yeah. So there are some misconceptions that are there when we think of women leaders. And what would, what would some of them be?

[00:37:21] The most common ones, right? Which are, oh, she's, confidence is equal to arrogance. Oh, she, you know, I've heard this so many times about myself about negotiations. For example, I'm a tough negotiator. Why shouldn't I be? I'm negotiating for my business. I'm negotiating for this. I'm negotiating for that. Right. But the thing is, oh, you know, she's difficult to deal with. Right. And why? Because I'm not going to just agree to whatever you're saying.

[00:37:44] So, you know, there tends to be the same thing a guy does. It's like, oh, he's, you know, he's a tough negotiator. He's shrewd. He's, you know, he's really strong woman. She's aggro. She's this, she's that, you know, she's difficult to deal with, etc. And I think it's okay. You know, look, I think most people are used to dealing with women in few avatars, you know, Mother India, unfortunately, you know, stripper slash prostitute slash, you know, sex object.

[00:38:15] So, you know, our clan of women who are have an opinion of their own, whether you're working or not, you know how to state it, you know what you want is not commonly found. And guys don't know how to deal with it. Yeah. And again, I'm generalizing. Many do. Some don't. Yes. And I think we just have to say that, look, this evolution, it's progress, it's process. And you just keep taking situation at a time.

[00:38:44] I try not to find too many patterns between these things, but I don't want to generalize because then you go in with the predisposed mindset into the next situation. I don't want to get into the next negotiation thinking, oh, this guy is anyway going to think I'm difficult. So why should I be reasonable? Yeah. I want to go in with giving a fair chance to the other person because the same way I don't want to be typecast. I don't want to typecast man. Yes. Yes. But that's, that's easier said than done for many people. Yeah. For many people because our experiences are like baggages, right? We carry our experiences and shedding baggages is not something that even it's not just women.

[00:39:14] For anybody. It's hard. It's hard to, to stay with grace and stay with, you know, what we believe in, in the face of the many resistances of the past, even if they're not there right now. So how does sharing baggage even look like? I mean, I think honestly, I genuinely believe like parenting and I think it's the same thing for everything in life. We just have to keep working on ourselves. Yeah. Because we have to realize our baggage is ours. It's nobody else's problem. Yeah.

[00:39:39] Right. If I believe as a woman, I've been discriminated against and I go into every situation now assuming I'm going to be discriminating. That's a self-assuming prophecy. Yeah. Then I'll become more aggro. I'll become more like you have to hear my voice. My voice will go louder. Yeah. You know, et cetera, et cetera. Because I constantly feel like I'm not heard. Yes. Right. And then I will act in a way that makes me feel like I'm heard. But everybody else is perceiving me as unnecessarily loud and aggressive for no reason. Yeah.

[00:40:05] So we actually compromise ourselves by going in with predisposed impressions or with baggage. Yes. So actually we are doing ourselves a favor by dropping the baggage in as much interaction as we can and giving the other person on the side a fair chance, a neutral starting space. Yes. As much as we can. And like none of us are perfect. You know, it's just a process of evolution and self-awareness. Yeah. Today you are in a very interesting time in your life. I don't know which part of your life was not interesting.

[00:40:33] Yeah. All of it is awesome. Problems are good problems. Problems always look romantic after they are over. But today you actually you have you have young children. There is an acquisition that's just happened. A metropolis is as I mean, I hope it's become the dream that you had at one point and this is like it is. It is known to be a high standard, high quality go to for any patient.

[00:40:59] I mean, we don't there's no doubt about it. You are in an interesting space. What does balance look like for you? And I don't mean work life balance. I mean all kinds as an individual. What does balance look like for you? About eight years ago, I was at a space where I said, you know, I had when I was building my business from 2001 till 2016, 17, I worked like a crazy person. Right. I worked 14, 15 hours a day. I traveled a lot.

[00:41:27] You know, I did all the things I needed to as an entrepreneur. But as I did that, I still maintained my close relationships with my friends. I still had, you know, relationships. I still spent time with my family. I still pursued my hobbies. I still played a sport. I believe even with working 14, 15 hours a day. If you don't have young children. Right. In the situation I was in, you still have time for other things.

[00:41:55] I think, but in 2016, I always said, look, at some point now, I want to move to a different stage of my life. And it's taken me eight years to get there. And I'm pointing this out because often we want something. But just because we want it, the world doesn't give it to us on a platter. We have to work for it. Right. And sometimes it takes time. It takes longer than we wanted it to. I thought in 2016, I'll make it happen. For example, I hired my first CEO in 2016. And I said, okay, now I want to have, I don't want to work 15 hours a day.

[00:42:25] I want to work 10 hours a day. I want to do some other things I enjoy, etc., etc. I was able to work 10 hours a day. But I was not happy with where my business was at. So I was still doing the things that actually I didn't want to do. Because, you know, I didn't feel my team was still there. I had to do that for another seven years. Right till I could get to the space where I felt like, okay, now I can actually truly take a step back from the day-to-day operations and actually just focus on strategy.

[00:42:55] So where I am today is as the executive chair. I run the M&A. I do the strategy with the team. You know, crisis, conflict. I focus on talent. Focus on governance. These are the areas I do, which I love doing. And these are the things which I've been wanting to do for a long time. I have three children. Twins who are eight months. And, you know, son who's about almost five in March. And loving the amount of time that I'm getting to spend with them. Because to me, I never knew what kind of a mother I'd want to be.

[00:43:24] I never grew up thinking, oh, I want to be a mother like this. I want to have so many children. That was not me. But once I had a child, I felt like I discovered the kind of mother I want to be. Which actually is more hands-on from a time perspective than I ever imagined. So, I'm in a place where I have the time now to do other interesting things in my life that I've wanted to do. I've always wanted to do a lot of philanthropy. I've always wanted to do healthcare investing and helping other entrepreneurs do well. Which I've been, by the way, doing for the last many years. But I'm doing it more now.

[00:43:54] Still spending time on Metropolis. And spending time with my babies and family. So, I feel like I have a really nice, you know, and spending time on doing the things I enjoy personally. I love chess. So, I'm starting to now play in open tournaments, etc. Oh, nice. Just for fun. And, you know, just sort of nurture our own hobbies, right? And the things that we want to do. Yeah, that's beautiful. And you mentioned Deepak Parekh. Yeah. Similarly, you've never had a problem seeking out help.

[00:44:24] And you've never had a problem getting mentors to respond to you the way you would want. I never used to reach out for help because it was not available in my resource pool. I had to do things to create the resource pool for me to tap into. Okay. So, for example, in 2012, when I started sensing that I'm getting into more complicated situations and I did need advice and guidance and help.

[00:44:48] I joined EU and YPO, you know, which are organizations for entrepreneurs or business people. That gave me a great entry into first making friends with business people. None of my friends were business people. And having access to that kind of guidance and input that I wanted. As I started hanging out with those group of people, I then got access to people like, you know, Deepak. So, you built it brick by brick. Bit by bit. Yeah. And, for example, I mean, I didn't know Deepak Parekh. I didn't know Uday.

[00:45:17] I didn't know Zia. I didn't know any of these people. But as I got into situations, I would go up and introduce myself. And I would ask them for help. I would chat with them. I would look for this. And I'll tell you, most people are helpful. Most people actually are happy to help. You just have to ask. And you have to follow up. Absolutely. Right? And they all responded and they reciprocated. That's just beautiful listening to you talk about it like this.

[00:45:43] Because a lot of people have a roadblock, a mental roadblock in asking and seeking. And there is a lot of this, you know, blindness around the pools we can access. Now, as you said, you are in a good space right now. You have a different kind of life, which you have also chosen. What would be some of the things you would want to inculcate in your children? Now, having navigated life the way you want. I'm sure you have ambitions for your children.

[00:46:11] But what would you want your children to be like? I mean, to be honest with you, I feel having ambitions for our children or having too many very clear ideas of what we want to put in our kids is actually harmful for our kids. Because I genuinely believe that children, you know, each of us as an individual is on our own journey. And as parents, we are here as caretakers to help guide and navigate and try to give the basic tools.

[00:46:40] But really, it's more our job to observe who they are, to support them in their journeys, rather than trying to mold them into what we want them to be. That's my genuine approach to parenting. While I say that, there are some things obviously that are important to me in terms of values. I'm not so fussed about, oh, my child has to be great at academics, has to become a sports star, has to do this. I don't care. Whatever they decide to do is fine. But I do hope that they will be kind. I do hope they'll be compassionate.

[00:47:08] I do hope they want to do the right thing in life. I do hope that they have a sense of purpose. And beyond that, honestly, it's their choice. And I will provide all support in any choice they make. And I just hope that it's with some purpose in mind. I would probably struggle if my child had more purpose. I think that would be, for me, a real test. Yes, yes.

[00:47:35] Meera, there is so much to learn from what you have said. There is so much of your journey that is role modeling for the younger women and men, honestly, who are going to be watching this and who have been watching you and following you for a while. But as I was hearing you and I was trying to just come up with what I was feeling about, there are the two things that kept popping in my mind.

[00:47:58] One is that within all this ambition and this aggression, which I very positively own as women, there is so much kindness that you have towards yourself, your own learnings, and therefore for other people. And I wish that could be somehow what people notice more than the other things. Because if we are only kind to ourselves, can we lend ourselves to our ambitions the way we are?

[00:48:21] And the other thing that stood out for me beautifully was the integrity you have towards the work that you're doing. And again, that's so beautiful to listen, to absorb. And that has come out, I think, very beautifully in this conversation. So thank you. So kind of you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for this beautiful conversation, for hosting us all here. And I hope everyone finds it as valuable as I am finding it. Thank you. Thanks.