Championing Diversity and Inclusion with K Ramkumar

[00:00:00] To believe that there are only men who are competent is a serious problem. If we remove all impediments, automatically diverse sets of people from gender, age, caste, religion, they would become visible to you to be betting on.

[00:00:18] The way to deal with biases is not vilify them or to turn around and say men are against women, men will not do this, is to be able to engage with through structurally how that's what great organizations do.

[00:00:31] At ICICI and at Hindustan Unilever kind of institutions we work, our leadership was very, very clear. The word was very clearly out.

[00:00:38] You misuse a policy like it, you go home. Getting more and more women into workplace gives you a talent pool which is much bigger than the talent pool only men will offer to you.

[00:01:02] Welcome to Stree At The Table, the podcast where we explore the journeys, challenges, triumphs of leaders who are making a difference.

[00:01:11] Today we have an extraordinary guest with us, someone who has profoundly impacted the world of leadership and organizational development.

[00:01:19] K. Ramkumar is the founder of Kautalia Leadership Center which is dedicated to developing leaders and enhancing organizational capabilities.

[00:01:28] With a rich career spanning over two decades, Ramkumar has held pivotal roles at Hindustan Unilever and ICICI Bank where he was group CHRO and executive director.

[00:01:39] A thought leader and visionary, Ramkumar's work on nurturing leadership talent, fostering organizational growth and promoting diversity and inclusion saw the emergence of some of India's most notable leaders over the last two decades, both men and women.

[00:01:55] Today we are going to dig into his vast experience, exploring not just his professional achievements but also his personal philosophy and commitment to developing women leaders.

[00:02:06] Get ready for an enlightening conversation with Ramkumar on Stree At The Table.

[00:02:12] Welcome Ram, it is so so good to have you here.

[00:02:15] We've been very excited about this conversation and are looking forward to hearing some very very deep insights from you.

[00:02:22] Particularly because not only are you an epic leader is what our teams like to call it, but also one of the few men that we can actually brainstorm with who's gone through this whole cycle of engineering leadership for women.

[00:02:38] You have been the head of operations and group HR as well in ICICI Bank.

[00:02:45] In that phase where ICICI moved into a very aggressive stage, banking was almost redefined in many ways by the bank.

[00:02:52] And while this growth was happening, women participation and women rising in leadership was almost happening without speaking about it, without talking about it.

[00:03:03] And my first question really to you was, was it effortless or was there a lot going behind and how did it even happen?

[00:03:10] See, I just, I'm a bit of a storyteller, right?

[00:03:14] Yes.

[00:03:14] So you'll have to bear with me and I am not a very cryptic communicator.

[00:03:19] So I just finished listening to the graduation speech of Federer in the Dartmouth College.

[00:03:27] He made a point when he said that the thing which used to irritate him was when people called him effortless.

[00:03:36] And he said nothing is far from true.

[00:03:40] True.

[00:03:41] For something to, it, so the question he says is that something becomes effortless when it is happening because the effort is happening where people are not seeing it.

[00:03:53] Absolutely.

[00:03:54] So my point for ICICI is, for all that you talked about me, the real epic leaders of ICICI were its women, right?

[00:04:03] So they defined what happened to ICICI.

[00:04:07] So we will actually be patronizing and insulting to the women of ICICI if we were even to say that the men of ICICI did anything for them.

[00:04:18] So I just want to put that in the right perspective.

[00:04:21] Absolutely.

[00:04:21] But that having said, right, it was people like Mr. Vagul, Mr. K.V. Kamath, Lalita Guptey, Kalpana Morpariya.

[00:04:31] These are the kind of the people who created a vision of an inclusive company in every way.

[00:04:41] So in that what mattered at the end of the day was that so there was nothing, no activism inside the company.

[00:04:49] True.

[00:04:50] Nobody ever said we should get 50% of the people to be this or that, whether it is a gender or a caste or a religion.

[00:04:58] None of this were a...

[00:04:59] So the matter of fact point, as Mr. Vagul would always say, if somebody was the best person to do something, and that person should go and do it.

[00:05:09] And often we don't always get the best person to do something.

[00:05:13] So he made an interesting point, which Mr. Kamath made it later on.

[00:05:17] He said, whoever could go on to really become the best person who may not be best at that point.

[00:05:24] So to a large extent, it was that ability to bet on human ability.

[00:05:31] Fantastic.

[00:05:32] Which created this.

[00:05:34] So then as I, in the informal conversation, I said is that to believe that there are only men who are competent is a serious problem.

[00:05:45] If we remove all impediments, automatically, you know, diverse sets of people from gender, age, caste, religion, they would become visible to you to be betting on.

[00:06:01] And at that point of a time, you should never ask, is this person a finished product?

[00:06:05] You should always say that on one or two evidence, I believe this person has the potential to go on to become somebody who would be impactful.

[00:06:14] Yes.

[00:06:15] Just make that call on the person.

[00:06:16] But you're making a very important point and I'm glad you're making it.

[00:06:21] But the fact is that in many institutions, these unconscious or conscious biases and impediments are part of the structure.

[00:06:30] And it takes, I mean, the reason why I also focused on effort is there is a, there is an effort at every level to ensure these structural biases are checked.

[00:06:41] How does that work in execution?

[00:06:43] Because you're again talking about not a, not an institution with a hundred people or, you know, 50 people.

[00:06:48] This was like, I think at 1.70,000 employees and a DNA that was inclusive from the top right down to the bottom.

[00:06:55] And maybe inclusion is also not the right, but participation from all kinds of people and women especially.

[00:07:02] So how does that come out in execution?

[00:07:06] So again, as a story, right.

[00:07:08] So I remember, I think it was in 2004.

[00:07:12] I think Madhavi had taken over as the Madhavi Puribuch, remarkable woman.

[00:07:16] And I'm so proud to say that India's first woman regulator.

[00:07:20] Absolutely.

[00:07:21] Yeah, it took us 75 years to find a regulator to be a woman in this country.

[00:07:25] And she happens to be somebody who is a remarkable person.

[00:07:28] So Madhavi.

[00:07:29] So Madhavi was in the branch banking those days.

[00:07:32] She was head of branch banking.

[00:07:34] So in one of the meetings, when we use the word bias, we end up thinking it to be diabolical and people are anti-woman or anti-caste.

[00:07:43] Given the exposure people have had and given the everyday pressures into which people are going in, biases develop.

[00:07:51] True.

[00:07:52] So in that meeting, I was also there in that meeting.

[00:07:55] So when we were talking about some 700 branch managers to be recruited or those kind of a thing, then casually one of the senior managers in that said, let us ensure that when we are recruiting, we are bringing in men into it.

[00:08:14] So this time it happened to be Mahadavi ahead of me.

[00:08:17] So she turned around and asked, what do you mean by that?

[00:08:20] And this gentleman got a little pushback.

[00:08:24] He said, no, no, no, I'm not saying anything wrong.

[00:08:26] I'm just saying how biases operate unconsciously.

[00:08:28] He said that no, you know, our branch managers are all very young.

[00:08:32] If we get more women into it, so they would go on a maternity leave.

[00:08:38] And if they go on a maternity leave, I would find it very difficult to manage.

[00:08:42] And two, we will not find replacements for them to come quickly.

[00:08:46] And the high growth we are chasing at this point of our time becomes very difficult.

[00:08:51] Now that's how you handle that moment is the most important thing.

[00:08:55] You could be accusative.

[00:08:56] You could be rude to the other person.

[00:08:58] Absolutely.

[00:08:58] Right.

[00:08:59] Or you could give one big speech about why equality is the most thing.

[00:09:02] But at ICICI with Mahadavi and I was there in that meeting, we handled it matter of fact.

[00:09:08] The matter of fact was to tell the gentleman, oh, if this is really your worry, right,

[00:09:15] we should structurally find a solution to it rather than saying it should be either more men or more women.

[00:09:21] Neither is required.

[00:09:23] Correct.

[00:09:24] But we have to find a structural solution to it.

[00:09:27] So the structural solution was the branch operations manager.

[00:09:31] So all that we said was that wherever there is a man or a woman, that doesn't matter as a branch manager.

[00:09:41] How we plan it?

[00:09:42] The second structural solution was that can we create a pipeline of branch managers ready to go and fill in this?

[00:09:53] When a lady has to go.

[00:09:55] At ICICI we had given an extended maternity than what was prescribed by the law.

[00:10:02] Because we actually believe that's an important moment for a family and we should support the family.

[00:10:06] We are not supporting just a woman.

[00:10:08] We are supporting the family.

[00:10:09] Let's make it very, very clear about it.

[00:10:11] Right.

[00:10:11] So the child is not only the woman's child.

[00:10:13] The child is also the man's child.

[00:10:15] Right.

[00:10:15] So we have to be very, very, very clear.

[00:10:18] Right.

[00:10:18] So we did it at that point of our time.

[00:10:20] We made it available and we made maternity leave available for men also to say you go and take care of your wife and she's in maternity.

[00:10:26] So the simple part is how do you find structural solution rather than lecture?

[00:10:33] Correct.

[00:10:33] Or rather than do this great inspiring speeches.

[00:10:37] They don't have.

[00:10:37] So to me, I'm just saying the way to deal with biases, they exist.

[00:10:42] Is not vilify them or to turn around and say men are against women, men will not do this or women.

[00:10:48] Any which way, right?

[00:10:49] Is to be able to engage with through structurally how that's what great organizations do.

[00:10:56] True.

[00:10:56] And to be able to educate people and culturally create a memory in the system by saying that in our system,

[00:11:05] it doesn't matter whether it is man or woman.

[00:11:08] You are giving examples of some outstanding responses from leadership.

[00:11:14] We're talking about great leaders who have responded not only to put down an objection or an apprehension,

[00:11:20] but also empathize and co-create a solution.

[00:11:24] Correct.

[00:11:25] When this is happening, these are happening in boardrooms.

[00:11:28] The fact is that this culture needs to trickle down right, you know, in your bank branches with how people are interacting there,

[00:11:37] whether with clients or within themselves.

[00:11:38] How does that trickle down then?

[00:11:41] We were expanding branches quite a bit, right?

[00:11:45] It's almost like we're rolling out a branch a day.

[00:11:47] More than a branch a day was coming in.

[00:11:49] So, I was, I spent close to 8 to 10 days traveling, meeting people.

[00:11:55] I genuinely believe you cannot run an organization sitting in your room.

[00:12:00] So, here I was traveling and I was in, if I remember correctly, Bangalore for a new branch opening.

[00:12:10] So, I was in that branch and then as a matter of fact, I asked a question, where are the toilets?

[00:12:21] So, this branch was in a, those days there were no mall, but many shops, the complex.

[00:12:30] So, there was a common bathroom into which the hat.

[00:12:35] Then I asked, where would our women, how would our women use their toilets?

[00:12:43] That is when we realized that when we are going to put a branch into place,

[00:12:49] we cannot think it through the lens of a man and we should think it through the lens of a woman too because,

[00:12:58] and then we created SOP.

[00:13:03] And I know this is a difficult thing to look at it.

[00:13:06] So, when your child is in 10th standard and 12th standard, for some strange reason, right,

[00:13:13] in all our home, we know it's not a strange reason, I know it is,

[00:13:16] the absentee father does very little for the preparing the child for the education.

[00:13:21] And the mother ends up becoming the main push of helping the son or the daughter to prepare for the 10th or whatever it is,

[00:13:30] 10th or 12th.

[00:13:31] So, we realized, yes, this is an important thing.

[00:13:34] So, we said, now, under those circumstances, if you have a child in the 10th or 12th,

[00:13:40] during this period, for three months starting from January,

[00:13:44] we will give you certain dispensation to come late or go early.

[00:13:48] Amazing.

[00:13:49] And we believe that you will utilize it in a responsible manner.

[00:13:53] The moment you treat everybody as frauds who will...

[00:13:56] See, the problem with HR policies all over the world is, we make it for that few people who will misuse it.

[00:14:03] Yes.

[00:14:04] And thereby, we insult and indignify that 99% of the people will play by the rule.

[00:14:10] At ICICI, we said that we trust this 99% of the people's good behavior.

[00:14:14] And we know how to handle this trant 1% to put them into place.

[00:14:20] And we did it very, very sternly.

[00:14:22] When you misuse the system, we are the most difficult people.

[00:14:26] Yes.

[00:14:26] Right?

[00:14:27] Yes.

[00:14:27] But we will not make rules for 99% of the people.

[00:14:31] So, we offered it to even the men, man or woman, if your child is in 10th or in 12th...

[00:14:40] You get this dispensation.

[00:14:41] Similarly, we said that, look, if you have somebody at your home fighting a terminal illness...

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:49] So, I'm telling you, these are the small ways by which you do not...

[00:14:52] These things don't get talked in the boardroom at all.

[00:14:55] They are happening on an everyday basis.

[00:14:57] Completely.

[00:14:57] So, you're making such an important point that the headlines are misunderstood.

[00:15:03] You know, and everything is not the headline.

[00:15:05] So, policy for menstrual leave, policy for promotion, policy for, you know, a percentage hiring.

[00:15:11] These are the ultimate headlines.

[00:15:13] But there are so many symptoms, symptomatic issues in an organization that prevent these headlines from ever actually working for you or against you.

[00:15:22] Correct.

[00:15:22] That is what you're doing.

[00:15:23] You have to nuance them.

[00:15:24] You have to nuance them.

[00:15:25] There are cost implications of this on an organization.

[00:15:29] I want...

[00:15:31] You know, the purpose of this conversation is also not simply to spotlight, to also say that, okay, if one institution could do it, it can also be done more and more.

[00:15:40] And unfortunately, there are not many who have internalized these good practices to us because there is maybe a myth or maybe it's true that this is more costly.

[00:15:51] This costs us.

[00:15:53] This costs us.

[00:15:53] And that cost is not worth it.

[00:15:55] While we have alternative data that says women in leadership position workforce do have a very positive impact on profits.

[00:16:02] So, was that ever a conversation?

[00:16:04] And if it was, how did you justify those costs then?

[00:16:07] My personal view at the end of the day, right?

[00:16:10] For every decision you make, there is a cost and a benefit.

[00:16:17] Okay.

[00:16:17] Now, you have to ask yourself a question. If the cost is prohibitively high, so the conversation cannot be whether there is an additional cost, there is a delta. The conversation is, is this delta significant enough for you not to make this decision? On any policy, that is how you do it. And why would it be different in this?

[00:16:41] So, you have to simply ask yourself, let's say, in an organization of 70,000 people, now you have to ask the question, how many people will simultaneously do all this kind of, these things will happen? Is this going to be very prohibitive? At least for, in my mind, I run an, right now, my institution, I run an institution of 10 people.

[00:17:07] Right now.

[00:17:08] Right now.

[00:17:08] Yeah.

[00:17:08] Right. We are four men and six women. So, in a large company, you will say costs get absorbed over 70,000 people. So, it's a rounding off error. I do the same thing with a 10 people company.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:27] So, now let's ask this question. Man or woman, if you have, I have a bad migraine. You know, I've endured it for 42 years of my life. I do understand. Because I've seen it, my mother go through it and struggle through it. I've gone through it. What do you do? Don't you go home early?

[00:17:46] Don't you come back? Come to the office. And even within the office, when you're doing, there are times I'm telling you, I would go down and say, I need two hours to close my eyes and sit in some place. Some of this we overstate. Right? None of this is a prohibitive cost.

[00:18:07] Right? Now, that's really where the problem is. If you are not an institution who can handle the people who misuse them, then you lack leadership discipline. Now, because your leaders are poor and they cannot find out who is misusing it, you now have to really make everybody suffer.

[00:18:30] So, at ICICI and at Hindustan Union Labor kind of institutions we worked, our leadership was very, very clear. The word was very clearly out. Right? You misuse a policy like it, you go home. You can ask, is it not capital? It is capital. Because the idea here is by saying, because of this one person who is misusing it, we cannot penalize the rest.

[00:18:54] We penalize 99%. So, this one person has to be treated in such an exemplary manner. I'm using the word very consciously. There is fear in the system that you do not misuse policies which are meant to create productivity. These policies create productivity.

[00:19:13] They do.

[00:19:14] We are misunderstanding it. So, there can never be a cost. Yeah? So, that's my limited experience. Then and even now when I'm running the company of 10 people, still the same.

[00:19:25] Absolutely. And while executing, would you then safely say that the single biggest differentiator while pulling off something like this is leadership?

[00:19:37] It is. I always say this, right? We were talking outside, right? I'm a big skeptic on committees.

[00:19:45] Yes.

[00:19:46] Right? This committee, that committee, nothing happens. Right? They are all just because you are wanting to say, it's a bahana, you want to show people you are doing something and you really don't intend.

[00:19:55] DI committee.

[00:19:56] I always ask the question, if the CEO of the company wants something to happen, tell me in which culture, in which country, that will not happen. Now, the simple question is, as a CEO, I ask you, do you want it? Now, if you want it, who will stop you?

[00:20:17] There are a thousand other things you go ahead and do because you want it. And you know the way how to take engineer it. So, in my mind, the CEO and the senior executive management of the organization, if they want something to be done, it will be done.

[00:20:34] So, why don't enough want it? According to you?

[00:20:38] As a culture, we are a very, we grow up with privileges for boys and men. So, it is a matter of fact for us. Right? As we grow up.

[00:20:57] Yes.

[00:20:58] And the way our families bring us up. And again, not done in a diabolical, let's not get into any diabolical stuff.

[00:21:05] It is what it is.

[00:21:09] It is nothing over. Nothing like that happened. Now, I grow up. So, the mind space, which gives me a perspective of what this equality and equity is not well developed in many of us, including the woman, I am telling you.

[00:21:27] The woman herself does not, many of them don't know to demand equality and equity and get it and ask it without fear or favor.

[00:21:37] Yes.

[00:21:38] And the men, many of us grow up not. Then we come into workplaces. So, it doesn't strike us. It doesn't occur to us.

[00:21:46] Yes. So, to me, the main thing is, how do we get these kind of conversations going?

[00:21:57] Yes.

[00:21:59] And how do we, instead of an out-on-out activist conversation, is there a way we can engage with our people? For example, I will tell you.

[00:22:13] There was a time, I was having a conversation with Chanda. And I was telling Chanda, Chanda, we should not be afraid that a man and a woman being equal, for if we believe we will prefer a woman to be promoted and ask the man and say, we will take care of you in the next cycle.

[00:22:35] Because we are trying to correct a certain imbalance in the system. Please help us do it. It is not that we are going to junk you. Every one of you are going to get an opportunity.

[00:22:47] Yes.

[00:22:47] It is just that we are so lopsided with the men being in leadership so many, we need a woman to get in. And this lady is as meritorious as you, you know it. Of course you could have gone there.

[00:23:00] We don't have these conversations boldly in the company.

[00:23:03] Yes.

[00:23:03] Yes.

[00:23:04] And at ICICI, I would have to say, the male colleagues did not rebel, did not write anonymous notes anywhere to say that this company is ill-treating men and promoting women.

[00:23:17] There could always be that one idiot everywhere.

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:19] Right? We don't have to worry about that one person.

[00:23:22] Yes.

[00:23:22] By allah, the men conducted themselves with extraordinary level of openness to say, we do understand.

[00:23:30] There was a lot of grace and dignity in the system.

[00:23:33] With the conversations.

[00:23:34] In the, because of the conversations.

[00:23:36] There was everyday conversation. Every time the conversation would always be, see, see,

[00:23:40] a colleague of mine would always say, this is lovely, right?

[00:23:47] Right? She would always say, collar mics have been designed for men. They have not been designed

[00:23:53] for women who wear ethnic wear. Correct.

[00:23:56] Right? So now, can you imagine? Car seats. These days you could adjust the height and you reach to the accelerator and the brake.

[00:24:09] Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

[00:24:11] Hmm. Hmm.

[00:24:11] We're blind to women.

[00:24:12] They were.

[00:24:13] So, I can go on and on, right? Yes.

[00:24:16] Yes.

[00:24:16] We can go on and on, on and on, right? Yes.

[00:24:18] Yes.

[00:24:19] So, the last part of it is just, I wrote two blogs, I think 10 years back. I said marginalization

[00:24:27] of women in society. I traced it over the last four and a half thousand years of history.

[00:24:33] So, the whole issue is, it is wired in the system to think in everything from design to everything

[00:24:42] through the man's worldview. Now, we have to alter it. Now, in engineering, we have started altering it.

[00:24:52] Right? Yes.

[00:24:53] So, organizations are also engineered and in leadership, we need to take the responsibility

[00:24:58] to say. It doesn't matter who does what, this best practice and all, put it aside and say. Constantly, I'm going to ask,

[00:25:05] is this designed and engineered for both the sexes or am I designing it for only one sex? One gender.

[00:25:12] Brilliant.

[00:25:13] Right? The moment we start thinking policies like that, like designers have started doing it because today,

[00:25:20] the woman power is a buying power. So, she now would elect, vote for it by not buying.

[00:25:27] So, you're scared.

[00:25:28] Yes.

[00:25:29] So, now you're saying,

[00:25:30] my product has to sell. So, now I have to think woman when I design.

[00:25:35] Correct.

[00:25:35] Not just one. I mean,

[00:25:37] I agree.

[00:25:37] The woman or man, it doesn't matter. I'm doing it. So, that is what is where I get my equality coming in.

[00:25:44] Right? So, when we sit in organizations, we have to, so now we should not say, is it favoring a woman?

[00:25:51] All that we are basically saying is that if we want more women inside the system, there are going to be policies which would make it possible for more women to come in.

[00:26:01] A positive bias.

[00:26:02] You're designing a positive bias.

[00:26:04] Correct. I'm not, I'm taking the word, you're basically engineering a system. Right? I wouldn't use the word bias at all here.

[00:26:11] Yes.

[00:26:11] All I am trying to say is that it's your interest rate. You want more women to come in? Fantastic. Now, if you want more women to come in at this point of a time, now start asking this question, what will get me more women into the company?

[00:26:26] Now, the issue is that whatever policy you're designing is not favorable for women. It is favorable for the company because you want more women to come.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] But if you don't have this policy, that woman will not come. Now, how is it a woman favorable policy? It is an institution favorable policy you are making to get more women. So, let's say, take the word woman out. If you want more experienced people to come into the company, you will design policy of one kind?

[00:26:53] Absolutely.

[00:26:53] If you want more younger people to come in, you will design another kind of policy. Now, will the experienced people will say, are you biased towards young people? Or would the young people will say you're biased towards experienced people? No.

[00:27:05] No, we will not.

[00:27:06] So, the perspective is what am I doing right now? So, now we should not spin everything around by saying, this is the right thing to do.

[00:27:17] Yeah.

[00:27:19] What can you do about it at the end of that? Otherwise, they won't come. And if they won't come,

[00:27:24] there are, you anyway, on one side you are saying, you have scarcity of skills available and you are not able to fill the jobs to which with competent people.

[00:27:37] And on the other side, you are saying, our policies are going to make it difficult for a set of people who are competent otherwise to come in.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:49] Yeah.

[00:27:50] So, in one way to create this huge war for talent, I don't believe there is any war for talent. At the end of the day, it is just our blindness of not being able to identify talent, which has created a talent scarcity.

[00:28:02] So, I am repeating this point for the nth time by saying, if you think what would solve my problems, right? Getting more and more women into workplace gives you a talent pool which is much bigger than the talent pool only men will offer to you.

[00:28:26] You agree with it? Now, if you want these women to elect and come into your system and not elect out, now you better make policies which are attractive for them.

[00:28:41] Yes.

[00:28:42] Yes.

[00:28:43] Yes.

[00:28:44] Yes.

[00:28:44] So, you have to make a product which is attractive to the buyer. These days, people buy a job. You don't do a favor giving a job to anybody. That is over. So, that person who is going to elect to come to your organization should feel the policy you are offering, she would elect for it. That's all to me.

[00:29:06] That's all to you. You also referred very interestingly to the time when because your daughter, you know, attained puberty, you had some realizations that in spite of having three sisters and a mother and in spite of, you know, being in an education system.

[00:29:20] And a wife.

[00:29:21] And a wife. You were not. And that also, so I want to then move to this conversation as a man who is brought up in an ecosystem and let's keep ourselves to the Indian ecosystem.

[00:29:34] Correct.

[00:29:34] And we are raised in a particular way, again, not by a malicious society, but in a society that is organized in a certain way. And there are these blind spots that male leaders also have because they've not been exposed. Now, this generation is shifting.

[00:29:50] There are new norms that are coming, whether it's social media, you know, informing us in many ways or our children really being exposed to more.

[00:30:00] As a male head of the family or a male part of the family, what are some of the things that we must now be very conscious about as we raise our children, both men and women?

[00:30:13] I was having a conversation with Rama Bijapurkar, another remarkable person. And I also would say there are a lot of things I learned from Rama. With Rama, I was having this conversation by saying, yeah, until women talk about these things unapologetically, the men will not know these things exist at all.

[00:30:38] Now, now you can keep arguing, why don't they know it? Let them know it. I don't have time and space for it. I like to do things rather than get into this talk shows actually.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:50] It has absolutely no value, right?

[00:30:52] Yes.

[00:30:53] Now, this is where I always tell by saying, I tell my daughter, I tell my daughter-in-law, I tell everybody by saying, don't be afraid. If something you believe, the man is unable to understand.

[00:31:08] Just tell him.

[00:31:09] You tell him. Now, my experience tells me, seven to eight out of ten men are well-intentioned men.

[00:31:21] When you notify it to them, many of them would say, oh, I didn't know it. And they may alter their conduct. Of course, there are these three or two to three people who are in that we need to deal with it separately. That's why.

[00:31:37] But because we can afford to do this and the women are hesitant. Why? Again, years of conditioning. Right? Even a person as enlightened as you.

[00:31:54] Yes.

[00:31:55] Right? Or my wife for that matter. Right? Or my sisters. Right? Find it difficult. Now, the good thing I see is that with my daughter-in-law and my daughter, that relationship, man-woman relationship is changing.

[00:32:10] I don't know whether it is happening only in my social milieu. I hope and pray it is happening in every social milieu where the girl is now able to tell the man.

[00:32:20] So, I am an optimist. I believe the more such… I am a big believer in conversations rather than accusations.

[00:32:31] Yes.

[00:32:31] Right? It doesn't help anybody. Or victimhood. Neither help. So, in my mind, this is the hope I have of the younger generation.

[00:32:43] Hmm.

[00:32:44] They are going to… I don't expect a whole scale revolutions don't happen. But I believe asserting yourself as a woman, girl and saying, you don't know my world. I am going to educate you.

[00:33:03] Amazing.

[00:33:04] Please, unapologetically, in an unesitant, in a very dignified manner do it. It doesn't have to be done in a loud, rebellious, accusative, blaming manner.

[00:33:18] Yeah. Do you think women are scared to be misunderstood?

[00:33:23] Yeah. I believe women are scared to express their ambition. Because an ambition expressed by a woman presents herself with a low dignity. Why?

[00:33:36] It shouldn't be.

[00:33:37] Why? You are a human being, right? Why is it the exclusive privilege of a man to be ambitious? And I am not anti-man. Men should be ambitious.

[00:33:47] And women should be ambitious.

[00:33:51] Right? And there should never be a problem of women expressing ambition at the end of it.

[00:33:58] Now, again, the classical thing happens. There are ladies in my… when I was working and even now they will come and say, you know, the smoking club of men.

[00:34:09] There are these things. You know, these are all imaginations you have created for yourselves.

[00:34:19] And you wallow in your victimhood by saying, because men are in that smoking club and they are in their boozing club, there are some extraordinary decisions get taken up.

[00:34:30] I'm telling you, Charlie, sir, I don't smoke, I don't drink. Not for any moralistic reason. I'm completely… you drink, you drink, you smoke, you smoke.

[00:34:37] I don't. Because for my… if I'm a fitness freak, I don't do it. I've never been in any smoking club. I've never been in any booze club. Meaning, I am not a… for me, if I have to attend a party, I will have to convince myself it is work.

[00:34:54] I'm a very private guy. I get up, I go home. I love to spend my time. I progressed in my life.

[00:35:00] But there are a lot of men who hack the system through this network. I mean, yeah, yeah, I agree. That's not the only thing. But there is also that network.

[00:35:09] In fact, you know, in our circles, it's also called the bro code, where one brother will look after the other or there will be decisions made in informal settings.

[00:35:18] And that is, that is again, you have to tell me if this is a complete myth. But there is a significant number of them who do leverage of each other is what women believe.

[00:35:27] I work for four companies. Hindustan Aeronautics, Hindustan Unilever, ICI, ICICI Bank. Right?

[00:35:37] In three of them, I was in a fairly senior position. No, never seen it. Now you are…

[00:35:45] There could be that anecdotal one exception which could happen somewhere. If you indeed, so if you indeed really believe that you can be my smoking bro or a booze bro because of which I will promote you.

[00:36:06] Yeah. Let's be fair, right? No institution could have gone where it has gone. Then every board should, of every institution should be packed only by incompetent people or this look at the kind of political conflicts which exist among men peers.

[00:36:29] Yeah. So where are they, the bros? Each will kill the other guy. If the fellow, if I have to progress, right, how would I give…

[00:36:39] So to me, even when I do these programs, right, I always tell the woman is that. At the end of the day, these are all cop-out stories you have given for you to wallow in victim mode.

[00:36:52] I know people won't like me for me to say this. I say it to my daughter. I say it to a lot of young girls. I say it. The more you give yourself an excuse that you are in a helpless position, the more difficult it would become for you to really achieve anything.

[00:37:14] There are disadvantages. Every social system presents to different sets of people. I am not saying there are not. Engage with them when they are real. Don't create this imaginary disadvantages.

[00:37:37] Then you will not have energy and time to engage with the real disadvantages. The real disadvantage is the role selection people make. You think in institutions, some roles you believe men are more suited. This nonsensical book which came, men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

[00:37:55] Yes.

[00:37:57] Stereotyping, right? So we come into the stereotype. So fight that.

[00:38:01] Fight the stereotypes.

[00:38:02] Fight the stereotypes. Don't say that I am the bro club, cis club, all these things. You can't do anything even if it exists actually.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] But fight the stereotypes. Like I said, collection women cannot. And two, I know that many women will get upset with me. You end up playing the stereotype by saying, I can only do this job because…

[00:38:23] So what's so great about the ICSI woman? Every ICSI lady will do any job.

[00:38:29] Nobody would say that this is not a job I will…

[00:38:36] A woman cannot do. Travel, I will travel. Right? This role I will do. I have to be on the road, I will be on the road.

[00:38:44] Take Shanta Walluri. Went on to be the HR head of this time.

[00:38:49] One of our remarkable salesperson. Chanda Kocchar, Lalita Gupte, Madhavi Puri Bunch, Shilpa Kumar. I can go on. Zareen Daru Hala.

[00:39:01] One could be a chance if I put 100 on the table.

[00:39:10] Yeah, there's enough of that.

[00:39:12] The women of ICSI refuse to be stereotyped. Yeah, you could have a job preference. That's different. But don't say women cannot do a certain job. Only men can. Then you fall into the trap of the man. And he plays you then. Then you cry.

[00:39:28] Like, so don't do this. Only nurses can be women. Only teachers can be… Whoever said it, you could do anything.

[00:39:40] See, if I saw Lovlina's boxing class when she came in. In a boxing sport, you could have a woman coming in.

[00:39:52] Yeah. So where is the problem? Yeah.

[00:39:55] So in my mind, I think if you see a man stereotyping you, like my daughter did, punch him on his face.

[00:40:04] But to do that, you don't stereotype and don't get… Of course there are disadvantages.

[00:40:12] Every social group, especially women go through. Fight the real disadvantages and not the imaginary ones.

[00:40:18] Don't get distracted.

[00:40:19] Otherwise you will fight the imaginary one. Let's say the men all stop smoking.

[00:40:25] And let's say all the smoking clubs disappear. Will things be better for you?

[00:40:30] No, it wouldn't be. Let's say you don't go into the booze club. Men stop boozing.

[00:40:36] Will life change? No, the real problems are not that. You are running after the more superficial ones.

[00:40:44] The real problem is conditioning.

[00:40:45] The real problem is the mind of the man.

[00:40:47] Yeah. The way the man has grown.

[00:40:50] Yeah.

[00:40:50] And not malicious. Converse with the person.

[00:40:53] Yeah.

[00:40:54] Help the person know what it means to a woman with a particular policy or a process or anything.

[00:41:05] Many women will listen.

[00:41:07] I am no angelical man. I have been made by the woman of my life. They have all helped me see things through the eyes of a woman. It had helped me. I still cannot see everything through the eyes of a woman. I may never.

[00:41:23] I know it. I know it. And I am open. I still see most things through the eye of a man. But I am not an anti-woman. And I do not want women to be kept low. It is simply I don't know. Many things. Like a couple of examples I gave you.

[00:41:44] Yes.

[00:41:45] Help me understand. I am fine. Then I am open.

[00:41:49] So as we move towards the end, what would be your message really to the young men who are moving up the ladder? What would you like to give as a message to them?

[00:42:02] Speak to women and try to understand.

[00:42:06] Why should they?

[00:42:08] Because as a leader, you represent everybody. You are not a man's leader. When you want to get into leadership, right? Any leadership. Don't think of leadership as changing the world leadership.

[00:42:23] For us, I run this company. Our belief is that leadership has nothing to do with the position. Leadership is around about creating clarity in other people's mind, helping people deal with uncertainty.

[00:42:38] Simplifying what is complexity. Every time you do one of this, the other person sees you as a leader. It has nothing to do with how many people are under me, this crap. Under me. What? Under me. You are sitting. Is it all language? Under me? Nobody is under you. How can anybody be under me now? You see? The floor is under me. Yeah. Maybe the 14th floor is under me.

[00:43:01] Yeah. So can I feel very good? I am on the 15th floor. 14th floors are under me. No. So to me, if leadership is around the world, when there is lack of clarity, every time you create clarity, the other person says, wow, I got clarity.

[00:43:19] When there is uncertainty. When there is uncertainty. When there is uncertainty. When there is uncertainty, if you are able to help the other person engage and deal with clarity, clarity removes uncertainty or reduces.

[00:43:27] Yeah. So many times, every time, right? At home, there are no leaders 24 by 7. Many times you do it. How can you do it? By understanding everybody. Understand the... I am 63.

[00:43:43] Right? My biggest fear is that if I don't speak to the young people, I will not understand them.

[00:43:50] I don't make policies anymore. I am not anymore an executor. But I work in the domain of leadership.

[00:43:58] Yeah. So if I am working in the domain of leadership, I need to know what a 23-year-old thinks today.

[00:44:04] Why? Rather than sitting in judgment on it. So this business people say the current generation is this, our generation. For 450 generations, we have always been saying the next generation is bad.

[00:44:17] True.

[00:44:18] Well, don't wait. It's like men are from Mars. Today we say Zen Z.

[00:44:22] Yeah, Zen Z.

[00:44:22] I... No. Just say, you know, what's your thought? Why do you think like... Instead of sitting in value judgment on this is good, that is good, they are less committed, they are difficult to manage.

[00:44:35] They said the same thing about me when I was 22. That generation is... Now I am saying the same thing about the next generation.

[00:44:42] But for all of us, our son and daughter are all peaches in our eyes, actually. It is the other people who are the problem for us, right?

[00:44:48] So instead of doing all this nonsense of stereotyping again, sit with a young person. So when I travel, I would speak to a driver. Tell me, what's occupying your mind?

[00:45:04] Right? The security guard in your office. And Mr. James used to be that person at ICSA as he walked in into the lobby. The first person every morning I will meet is James.

[00:45:16] James would have retired right now. And I would always ask James by saying, so what are your boys telling? They're housekeeping boys. They're not even my employees. They're contract employees.

[00:45:27] So I'd ask them, what are your boys telling? They would say, sir. Oh, this is what your boys... So where are you getting your boys from these days?

[00:45:36] Hmm. So...

[00:45:37] That, that, that, keep talking. Keep talking.

[00:45:41] Asking people, right?

[00:45:44] And that's how you change.

[00:45:46] You don't have to change. It doesn't change.

[00:45:48] That makes you. You continuously evolve every day.

[00:45:51] You keep on saying, uh-huh, uh-huh.

[00:45:53] Oh, I didn't know that.

[00:45:54] So to me, this is my unshakable belief

[00:45:57] is by saying, instead of caricaturing and branding fellow humans

[00:46:03] through the lens of, they are against me,

[00:46:06] I would say that they don't know me.

[00:46:10] Right?

[00:46:11] Can I...

[00:46:12] Of course, there are going to be this one in hundred people who are...

[00:46:14] We'll deal them separately.

[00:46:17] Thank you so much for a very, very beautiful conversation.

[00:46:21] And some things that I'm...

[00:46:22] I mean, I personally am going to take back from this

[00:46:25] in my journey of leadership.

[00:46:27] And I hope everybody who's listening

[00:46:29] and who's watched and heard you today

[00:46:31] is, uh, feeling as energized I am.

[00:46:33] Because there's a lot of hope in what you're saying.

[00:46:35] All we have to do is actually listen.

[00:46:38] Uh, is my biggest takeaway, uh, as we...

[00:46:41] And educate.

[00:46:42] And educate.

[00:46:43] That take the responsibility to educate other people.

[00:46:45] Yes, yes.

[00:46:46] And thank you very much for this great honor

[00:46:48] of having me here.

[00:46:49] Uh, and wishing you, Nagma,

[00:46:51] all the best in your endeavor.

[00:46:53] And this conversation should continue

[00:46:56] with more and many people.

[00:46:57] Yes.

[00:46:58] Thank you.

[00:46:59] Thank you so much.

[00:47:00] Thank you.

[00:47:00] Thank you.