Work Culture and Corporate Reputation

[00:00:14] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Reputation Matters, a show where we talk about how companies face crisis, deal with them, come out of it and the learnings of all of us. As always, our guest, Mitu Samar, founder of Eminence Consulting, a reputation management firm. Mitu, welcome to the show. Today we are doing something different. We are going to be talking about a topic without any specific case studies, but that topic itself is so huge. We are talking about work culture as a part, an integral part, an important part of corporate reputation.

[00:00:44] Mitu, let's start with defining work culture. It means different things for different people and folks we are going to be looking at it from the employer's side and from the employee's side. Mitu, work culture.

[00:00:55] Anupam, in my mind work culture is to an organization what DNA is to a human being, right? So it's something which is very inherent. It literally defines the existence of that organization.

[00:01:09] Mitu, and it comprises of variety of parameters. So it would be like the obvious ones like the growth opportunities or the kind of training and development that one undergoes while in an organization. All those obvious definitions.

[00:01:28] But more importantly, the whole feeling of welcoming, the whole feeling of inclusion, the whole, it's more of a softer aspect, exceedingly difficult to really measure, but plays a significant role in just shaping the way people function and saying that what is an organization without its people, right?

[00:01:54] So from that lens, when people function efficiently, they obviously contribute to the growth of the company.

[00:02:01] So going back to the definition, culture is something which really, I would say like an engine to an organization that your reputation starts literally from your reception, symbolically speaking, right?

[00:02:17] So basically the basic, most elementary part.

[00:02:21] Similarly, your culture starts from sending out call letters to your employees, right?

[00:02:28] So it is that inherent and that ingrained in an organization.

[00:02:32] It's more than having Tiranga Dokla on Independence Day.

[00:02:35] Way more than Narangoli.

[00:02:37] Nice one.

[00:02:39] You're taking me back to some memories of some really good time that I had when I used to work in a full-time job.

[00:02:45] And folks, Meetu and me, both of us are talking after working for long periods of time, 20, 30 years in organizations.

[00:02:52] Most of them high pressure, high stress, high performance industries where there was a lot at stake for us.

[00:02:59] Meetu, work culture and reputation.

[00:03:02] What is the link, if any?

[00:03:04] Strong linkage, right?

[00:03:07] Because like I said, an organization's functioning itself depends a lot on the culture that it has.

[00:03:15] So that obviously contributes to its reputation.

[00:03:19] Now, Anupam, we had actually done a study to understand what are the drivers of reputation in any organization.

[00:03:27] And as per that study, and this study was done amongst 100 plus senior leaders, corporate CXOs and CEOs, senior academicians.

[00:03:39] So a variety of senior professionals, so to say, we had spoken to them.

[00:03:45] And we arrived at five parameters that drive the reputation of an organization.

[00:03:51] Work culture was one such parameter.

[00:03:54] Yeah, so it is that strong.

[00:03:57] And, you know, there could be so many things that influence an organization's reputation.

[00:04:04] But beyond the top five, things start becoming tail.

[00:04:08] So work culture forms very, very significant part of the top five.

[00:04:13] In fact, then we had told people to rank these parameters out of these top five.

[00:04:20] The others being the exposure that the brand has with respect to recall.

[00:04:26] The second one was responsible business practices that it undertakes.

[00:04:30] The work culture being the third one.

[00:04:33] Then we also focused on financial performance of the company and the end user experience of the brand or the product that it produces.

[00:04:43] And you will not believe financial performance was the last, you know, in the ranking.

[00:04:50] Which you would assume is the first.

[00:04:51] Is the first, right?

[00:04:52] Because we all think that the results matter, numbers matter.

[00:04:55] Precisely, the existence of a business is to make profit.

[00:04:58] That's the kind of statement we read in our books.

[00:05:01] So definitely it is important.

[00:05:03] But the softer aspects are also highly important.

[00:05:07] And work culture actually stood number three.

[00:05:10] First was the user experience.

[00:05:12] How any user has experienced a particular company.

[00:05:17] Second was the recall.

[00:05:19] Followed by work culture and then responsible practice.

[00:05:22] Let's talk about India in specific, right?

[00:05:23] Now abroad in developed markets, which have a longer corporate history, work culture, culture as an asset is something that's well known and well accepted.

[00:05:31] India has a different set of things going on out here.

[00:05:33] First, I think what comes to my mind is that there is some kind of generational change happening.

[00:05:37] And I, you know, that kind of clash you see it happening so often.

[00:05:40] You've got people who belong, you know, who were CEOs, leaders, people who build very large companies.

[00:05:46] Now, obviously, they've retired or they're at that age where they make statements about minimum working hours and how employees should be, you know, strong and should learn to work hard for long nights and for long days and stuff like that.

[00:05:58] And of course, once that kind of statement lands in the media, then that has its own reaction because we live in a very, very, very, very different era.

[00:06:07] You're someone who manages a business, who's a leader herself, who's worked for so long.

[00:06:11] You've seen this transition, this generation gap happening.

[00:06:14] What's your view?

[00:06:15] I mean, you know, where is there going to be a balance out here or will this fight keep on going on?

[00:06:21] So this debate of work-life balance per se always is very, very core.

[00:06:28] And it's not something that we are hearing of today.

[00:06:32] Even 20 years ago, it had its own space.

[00:06:35] Of course, it was not so public because there were not so many platforms.

[00:06:40] But these discussions are there for ages.

[00:06:44] The difference now is that A, people are more vocal about it.

[00:06:49] People are more aware about it.

[00:06:52] Earlier, we only knew that the way to living was to earn living.

[00:06:57] So earning a living and living.

[00:06:59] In our time of the initial part of our career, they were very similar.

[00:07:04] People now have defined living more holistically and earning is just a part of that.

[00:07:10] So all these changes are coming in very, very consciously.

[00:07:15] And that's a welcome change.

[00:07:18] And it cannot be, hence, working cannot be defined or your contribution to an organization cannot be defined by the number of hours you have contributed to the organization.

[00:07:29] It is your productivity, your differentiated idea that you would have come up with or your ability to understand a particular problem quickly and come up with being a part of solution.

[00:07:45] So all these parameters are more valued.

[00:07:49] And honestly, I feel these are more, it's not a change.

[00:07:53] They were more valued then also.

[00:07:56] They are valued now as well.

[00:07:58] This whole debate of working hours, I don't relate to them.

[00:08:02] Because in my view, there is nothing called work-life balance.

[00:08:07] Balance has to be within.

[00:08:08] There are some industries, some jobs, some places which are inherently prone to long working hours, prone to high stress.

[00:08:18] Obviously, things like hospitals are one of them.

[00:08:20] Now, you wouldn't really want a work-life balance in a hospital because of the nature of the job out there.

[00:08:25] But outside of public services, in certain sectors, and I know because I work in stock markets, I used to do equity research.

[00:08:33] Timing is important.

[00:08:34] Timing is important, right?

[00:08:35] I can't talk about work-life balance if I know a certain event is going to happen.

[00:08:39] Although if I'm taking a call on a certain stock, then a certain research report has to be out by a certain day and time.

[00:08:44] And that is non-negotiable because that's the ownership of the work that I do.

[00:08:49] I can't chill out and say that I'll write this report whenever I want and the stock price will come and go and I'm left with nothing.

[00:08:54] So that's one example.

[00:08:55] You yourself have worked in the BFSI sector where I think at least some of them are prone to this.

[00:09:01] Now, maybe this is something that employees don't appreciate as well as they should.

[00:09:06] Some examples, some industries.

[00:09:07] My favorite example that I remember from the time that I used to do these 18-hour days would be that my boss would sit in front of the terminal and the entire day looking at price actions.

[00:09:19] And then at 6 or 7 in the evening and remember that we land up at our job at 8 a.m.

[00:09:23] We would say that now let's do some real work.

[00:09:26] So 12 hours have already gone.

[00:09:28] So routinely we would leave at some midnight or some such thing for weeks at a stretch.

[00:09:33] Any such incidents, any such memories or any such examples of industries, jobs, companies which will have a high stress profile.

[00:09:41] If the job demands it, Anupam, I don't think any employee shies away from giving the hours or giving the effort that is required.

[00:09:55] Most often than not, why will anybody not want to be a part of solution, right?

[00:10:01] So people would want to give that kind of time on energy or effort if the job demands.

[00:10:07] But where it starts becoming unhealthy, some bosses like you just pointed out, right?

[00:10:14] At 6 p.m. they realize that now is the time to do some real work.

[00:10:17] Everybody likes to be part of, this is my perception of course, but everybody likes to be part of that A team which is really contributing and helping the organization grow.

[00:10:30] And when that starts getting measured by the number of hours you have put and not by number or not by the kind of the quality of work you've done, then there is definitely a problem.

[00:10:42] So, you know, my disagreement comes with the kind of people when they start doing the real work at 6 p.m., right?

[00:10:50] You had 9 to 6 for doing the real work.

[00:10:55] Why start doing it at 6 p.m.?

[00:10:57] And like I have some of my team members and not now, even earlier, they prefer working in the night, right?

[00:11:05] So they don't feel comfortable coming in at 9 o'clock.

[00:11:08] So we're okay with that, right?

[00:11:10] So they choose to come into office at 10, 11 or whatever.

[00:11:13] Or some choose to do completely work from home thanks to, you know, the pandemic.

[00:11:19] One good thing is that work from home has become a norm.

[00:11:23] What are the problems by talking about the specific pressure points in a workplace that causes what's called toxic work cultures?

[00:11:30] Maybe a list of top two or top three red flags that you can make out that this is going to create a problem down the road.

[00:11:39] Could be a boss, could be targets, could be anything.

[00:11:41] Like from an employee's perspective, if I'm watching this and I want to know that, okay, these might be problem areas.

[00:11:49] What could those problem areas be?

[00:11:50] I have been in both shoes, right?

[00:11:52] I have been an employee for longest period of time and I have been an employer for the last 10 years.

[00:11:58] So I can present perspectives from both lenses.

[00:12:02] As an employee, what used to bother me or some of my colleagues because you all used to have those, you know, water cooler chats as they call it, right?

[00:12:13] So what we observed is, yeah, abusive, toxic boss who would consciously use the terms which are derogatory, which somewhere or the other makes you feel that you're not enough.

[00:12:33] That kind of team if you're a part of, that's really a big red flag.

[00:12:39] And you should definitely be cautious about it.

[00:12:43] That do you want to continue being a part of a game like this or you want to look for an opportunity outside?

[00:12:50] The second important red flag I would say is, is it unique to your own team or is it like company-wide issue?

[00:13:00] If it's a company-wide issue, immediately move out, right?

[00:13:04] Because it's definitely going to do so bad to your overall life in general or personality in general that it'll take you time to recover from there.

[00:13:16] So see if it's just like a branch which is, you know, the problem or the whole tree is a challenge, then get off that tree quickly.

[00:13:26] And lastly, is there a redressal mechanism?

[00:13:33] And how is that mechanism actually working?

[00:13:36] Because again, enough and more conversations have happened that the redresser cells actually end up, you know, targeting the employees who have complained.

[00:13:50] Sometimes even such challenges happen.

[00:13:52] A lot of people don't go ahead and complain thinking that they'll be targeted, right?

[00:13:56] So these challenges and here the role of employer becomes important, right?

[00:14:02] And employer, as an employer, it is my duty to make employees feel that, you know, you will be heard.

[00:14:11] The problem, Anupam, again, I have realized now after being an employer that for ages, organizations are looking at labor and capital as two resources for running the organization.

[00:14:26] Factors of production.

[00:14:27] Factors of production in economics, the first lesson that we learned.

[00:14:30] So if you treat your employees as a factor of production, then 100% you will be creating a culture which is toxic, right?

[00:14:42] But if you look at your employees as assets, like a lot of organizations are now renaming the human resources department as human capital department, right?

[00:14:52] If you look at your team as an asset, I am quite certain that then that asset can do wonders to your organization.

[00:15:01] So it's very critical for employers to have that very close ear to the ground.

[00:15:08] And we are talking about this, folks, because when taken to its extreme, there are some very unfortunate incidents that can happen because of toxic work cultures, stress, high pressure areas.

[00:15:18] We've seen this happen in the West.

[00:15:19] We've seen a couple of them happen in India.

[00:15:21] I mean, it's quite unfortunate because there's no company, there's no boss, there's nobody who's leading a company that would want such a thing to happen.

[00:15:29] Anything about, you know, what's your view about this?

[00:15:32] I wouldn't want to call it a trend.

[00:15:34] Hopefully they're just one of incidents, but they're real, right?

[00:15:38] Events happen.

[00:15:40] Mistakes happen.

[00:15:42] Mistakes happen.

[00:15:43] What we have to do is work towards making sure that such events don't happen because for an organization, it is just one episode or one employee.

[00:15:57] But for that employee, it was a complete life, right?

[00:16:02] And it's not only about death or it's not only about some mental trauma that one goes through.

[00:16:10] It's a complete life and the four or five lives that are dependent on it.

[00:16:15] All that gets impacted.

[00:16:17] So it's very critical for organizations to understand that employees are not a drop in an ocean.

[00:16:25] In somebody's world, they're ocean.

[00:16:28] They're a complete ocean.

[00:16:29] And that ocean needs to be preserved.

[00:16:32] And it's a moral responsibility on employers to do so.

[00:16:37] It gets very challenging.

[00:16:39] It's very easy to say all these things.

[00:16:41] I completely understand as well.

[00:16:44] So, and it is fairly easy to do.

[00:16:48] Not easy, I would say, but it is possible to do in organizations which are having smaller number of manpowers.

[00:16:56] But when you have lacks of employees, when you have global markets or multiple branches within the same country, the challenge is quadruple.

[00:17:07] Sure.

[00:17:08] Yeah.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:09] So organizations, they need to figure out what is it that they would do at local levels?

[00:17:14] What is it that they will do at national level?

[00:17:16] But a very clear, defined and honest path needs to be taken.

[00:17:22] It cannot just be in letter.

[00:17:25] It has to be followed with spirit as well.

[00:17:28] We do now with very specific points of action for our audience.

[00:17:33] The first question is that we've spoken a lot about corporate culture.

[00:17:37] But how do you even measure it?

[00:17:38] Like if I am an employer, if I am a company or even if I am an employee, what to you are the specific measurements of corporate culture?

[00:17:47] So, like they say, measure what matters.

[00:17:51] So, if corporate culture is important to you, you must measure it.

[00:17:55] So, what we tell our clients or where should any organization start is trying to measure that corporate culture where they are.

[00:18:05] There are a variety of ways of measuring it.

[00:18:07] It could be employee engagement, retention.

[00:18:09] Then what we do is we tell them to look at their true north.

[00:18:13] Where do they want their corporate culture to be?

[00:18:16] What is it that they want to stand out in their corporate culture?

[00:18:20] And then the parameters that define great culture for them.

[00:18:25] So, these are the three steps that we do.

[00:18:27] Now, the parameters differ for every organization, every industry.

[00:18:31] The belief of the leadership team, the belief of the team at large.

[00:18:38] So, there are a variety of reasons or the drivers that influence the parameters of any corporate culture.

[00:18:46] So, once all these three things are done, then typically committees are set and rightly so.

[00:18:56] I have no problem with committees getting set and all that.

[00:18:59] Because in large organizations particularly, you need to have a team that would work around it.

[00:19:06] Now, this is where the difference comes, Anupam.

[00:19:09] Typically what happens is that the rules or these important teams comprise of people who are very senior even in age.

[00:19:19] So, seniority with respect to age can act as a big impediment.

[00:19:28] Because the rules or the policies are being made by people who are possibly in their say 40s or 50s and senior team members.

[00:19:38] While it has to be followed by the team members who are at an entry level or at mid-management level.

[00:19:45] So, people in their 20s and 30s.

[00:19:48] Right?

[00:19:48] So, there is an ideological difference.

[00:19:52] It is pretty much like a parent-child difference.

[00:19:55] Right?

[00:19:55] That the way we think as parents and the way our children think is very different.

[00:19:59] And we call that generational gap.

[00:20:02] But this generational gap exists in organizations also.

[00:20:06] So, organizations need to be very clear and focused about how are they building, what is the composition of this team.

[00:20:15] Sure.

[00:20:16] It has to be truly diverse.

[00:20:18] With respect to age, with respect to gender, with respect to educational background, even with respect to economic background.

[00:20:27] All that collectively done, the team that would get created, I feel will have very good perspective on what the larger team needs in the organization.

[00:20:40] And then build towards a corporate culture.

[00:20:42] So, very interesting because we know that during COVID, a lot of companies went above and beyond.

[00:20:46] Because a lot of employees went through something that they never faced in their lives.

[00:20:50] And they also responded.

[00:20:51] They remembered that the companies have done really well for themselves.

[00:20:54] How much do you think that is symbolism versus something that is more permanent?

[00:20:59] Something that is ingrained in the culture?

[00:21:01] Or is that something that companies have to do any which way?

[00:21:04] That when there is a crisis, you have to be sensitive?

[00:21:07] How does this work?

[00:21:08] I would say that the company has to do it any which way.

[00:21:11] Right?

[00:21:12] Because when something is called for, organizations have to step up.

[00:21:18] In the reverse manner, I would say that the reverse stands true for employees also.

[00:21:24] So, while there are defined work policies, while there are defined work deliverables and expectations.

[00:21:31] But then there are some extreme times when you need to come up.

[00:21:36] And you need to go that extra mile.

[00:21:39] And one should not shy away from that.

[00:21:41] So, in my experience of last 30 years of having worked in multiple organizations and now running this organization,

[00:21:49] what really makes a difference, at least what made a difference to me, was my ability to show up.

[00:21:54] And show up fully.

[00:21:57] Right?

[00:21:58] So, like they say, be physically and mentally present.

[00:22:00] So, that's exactly what we did.

[00:22:03] So, whenever duty demanded, we didn't see any definition.

[00:22:08] And otherwise, of course, one can fall in the policy framework and enjoy the ride.

[00:22:44] Yeah.

[00:22:45] So, opt for a great work culture company.

[00:22:50] Because you can earn money.

[00:22:53] But if you're not happy, what will you do with the money that you want?

[00:22:58] Simple as that.

[00:22:59] Okay.

[00:23:00] Let's wrap this episode now with our standard question, what we usually do at the end of our episode,

[00:23:07] which is, how do companies deal with crisis like this?

[00:23:10] Okay.

[00:23:11] Now, some incident has happened.

[00:23:12] Very unfortunate.

[00:23:14] Link to work culture, which challenges and brings all the top bosses, the corporate leaders of that company,

[00:23:22] into the limelight for whatever reason.

[00:23:24] Some incident has happened.

[00:23:26] Repetition is tarnished.

[00:23:27] How should companies respond?

[00:23:30] First and foremost, organizations need to be very mindful of the timeliness of their response.

[00:23:37] Right?

[00:23:38] Because in this day and age of social media, where information flows in a jiffy,

[00:23:42] the more you delay in responding, the higher the chance of you losing out on the narrative.

[00:23:50] So, timeliness of response is very critical.

[00:23:53] The second important aspect is the specificity of your action in your response.

[00:24:01] So, just acknowledging that, oh, a bad episode has happened and we are sorry about it.

[00:24:07] That's expected.

[00:24:08] You better be sorry about it.

[00:24:10] But what are you going to do about it?

[00:24:12] Is what we want to know.

[00:24:14] Right?

[00:24:15] So, pretty much I would like to equate an episode like this with a corporate governance failure.

[00:24:21] So, if you say that my one employee faced an unfortunate situation, but my X number of employees are doing it fine.

[00:24:32] So, is it a problem with my company or the employee?

[00:24:36] The same question, will you ask the regulator when he points out or she points out a governance failure in an organization?

[00:24:45] That, oh, I do 100 things right, but I did one thing wrong.

[00:24:49] So, I should not be penalized for it.

[00:24:51] It cannot be.

[00:24:53] A compliance failure is a compliance failure.

[00:24:55] Similarly, a culture-related failure is a culture-related failure.

[00:24:59] It cannot be quantified.

[00:25:01] It has to be addressed at any point in time.

[00:25:06] So, that's very important to have specificity in action.

[00:25:10] What about empathy?

[00:25:11] Because some companies look at empathy as weakness, as accepting that, yes, this was my fault.

[00:25:18] Is that really the perception created in the public?

[00:25:21] Yeah, this guy, you know, he is sounding apologetic.

[00:25:24] So, obviously, there is a fault out there.

[00:25:26] Versus a company saying, listen, this is, you know, something happened.

[00:25:29] Yes, I acknowledge it, but we will figure it out.

[00:25:33] So, where is that fine line?

[00:25:34] A lot of time, people confuse being empathetic with being apologetic.

[00:25:40] And one has to know the difference first.

[00:25:43] So, a lot of organizations may just come out and just say that I am sorry that something like this happened and then wash their hands off.

[00:25:51] We don't want a situation like that either.

[00:25:54] Right?

[00:25:55] At the same time, we would rather have somebody who acknowledges the situation and comes back by saying that, fine, this happened.

[00:26:03] I take note of this and this is what I am going to do to correct it.

[00:26:08] And there is a way of saying it.

[00:26:11] So, there has to, it cannot be clinical.

[00:26:13] There has to be an emotional undertone to it.

[00:26:16] When specificity with an emotional undertone is taken into consideration, that's what, that's kind of response, which is considered empathetic.

[00:26:26] And that's the approach organizations need to take.

[00:26:30] Often, legal team ends up drafting these statements.

[00:26:34] Template responses.

[00:26:35] Yeah, which become very clinical.

[00:26:37] And that whole emotional undertone goes away.

[00:26:40] And people start labeling organizations as tone deaf, insensitive, all that.

[00:26:45] So, when asking on the question around empathy, organizations need to know that they don't have to be apologetic if they feel that, you know, there is more to the story than what obviously meets the eye.

[00:27:02] Right?

[00:27:02] But they also have to have an emotional undertone to what are they going to do about it so that at least whatever is in their control is addressed.

[00:27:14] And with that, folks, that is a wrap on this episode of Repetition Matters.

[00:27:17] Our guest, as always, is Samar, founder of Eminence Consulting.

[00:27:20] May to thank you so much for doing this all our time.

[00:27:23] Pleasure.