402: The brilliant Kathryn Hunter! 'The Tragedy of Macbeth', 'Poor Things', 'Andor' and working with Francis Ford Coppola on his upcoming 'Megalopolis'

[00:00:00] This is Pop Culture Confidential and I'm Christina Jirling-Biru.

[00:00:05] Hey everyone! Thanks so much for joining me for this conversation with the extraordinary actor, Catherine Hunter.

[00:00:23] With her physical virtuosity and singular presence, Catherine Hunter ignites any role she plays.

[00:00:30] Like the three witches in Joel Cohen's The Tragedy of Macbeth,

[00:00:35] the tattooed madam in Yorgos Lantimos Oscar-winning Poor Things,

[00:00:40] or the domineering mother, Edie Caron, in the Star Wars series Andor.

[00:00:45] Soon we will see her in Francis Ford Coppola's much-awaited new movie, Megalopolis,

[00:00:51] where she stars alongside Adam Driver and Giancarlo Esposito.

[00:00:55] Catherine Hunter is regarded by many as one of the greatest stage actors alive.

[00:01:01] A mix of American, British and Greek, she studied at the prestigious RADA,

[00:01:06] the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, where she trained with among others Kenneth Branagh and John Sessions.

[00:01:13] During her studies at RADA she suffered from a very serious car accident,

[00:01:18] which left her with a broken back and pelvis.

[00:01:21] It was horrific, but also transformative in terms of her approach to her work and life.

[00:01:27] After RADA she continued on stage and screen,

[00:01:31] and worked with the highly regarded theatre company Complicite founded by her late husband Marcello Magni,

[00:01:37] which worked with a lot of physical theatre.

[00:01:40] Hunter gravitates to male roles and made history in becoming the first female

[00:01:45] to play King Lear professionally on stage in Britain.

[00:01:49] Here is my conversation with Catherine Hunter.

[00:01:52] Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really honored to talk to you.

[00:01:56] It's a great pleasure, Christina.

[00:01:58] I want to start with one of my favorite characters of the movie season, and that's Madame Swiney.

[00:02:06] I came out of poor things saying to myself, I want to see the movie about her.

[00:02:12] Who is she? And how did you prepare for this character?

[00:02:17] She's the Madame of a Parisian brothel, and we know from, well, based on the book,

[00:02:25] we know that she's from London and wasn't doing very well in London,

[00:02:32] but realized that brothels were extremely popular in Paris and so made her way over there.

[00:02:38] And in fact, doing research I realized that they had huge themes

[00:02:44] and the successful madams of brothels were extremely wealthy and popular,

[00:02:53] sometimes a little unethical, sort of like mafia queens or something.

[00:03:00] But the High and Mighty would kind of visit these brothels

[00:03:05] and they would be themed on ancient Greece or Egypt or any range of things

[00:03:12] and what the Yardgos has created was extraordinary and quite wonderful in a way.

[00:03:19] The women, their workers as it were, look more like something from a diga painting

[00:03:25] than anything vulgar. I think he renders them very, very beautiful.

[00:03:31] And all the beautiful tattoos that the madams had.

[00:03:34] Oh yeah, kind of suggests a past, this one based on a relationship that she had with.

[00:03:41] This lover and that person and that person sort of created a history all over her body

[00:03:47] which was great fun.

[00:03:50] You have the most delicious looking lobes.

[00:03:54] Thank you.

[00:03:56] I must.

[00:04:00] Oh, I am sorry I drew blood.

[00:04:02] Yeah.

[00:04:03] I sometimes give in to myself when I see beauty, young beauty for one day my dear.

[00:04:12] You will be a wrinkled old husk and no one will want you either to pay for it or to have it for free.

[00:04:20] I still believe everyone would be happier if we could choose.

[00:04:24] An idealist like me, out in life where you are.

[00:04:29] But we must give in to the demands of the world sometimes, grapple with it, try to defeat it.

[00:04:36] So you believe as me?

[00:04:37] Of course.

[00:04:38] But some men enjoy that you do not like it.

[00:04:43] What?

[00:04:45] They're sick, but good business.

[00:04:49] Come with me.

[00:04:55] My grandchild, sick and poorly and requiring much doctoring, my choice of giving you choice will jeopardize the business.

[00:05:05] Her health, her life.

[00:05:07] Do you want that Bella?

[00:05:08] Of course not.

[00:05:09] You don't.

[00:05:10] You don't.

[00:05:11] You're so low.

[00:05:14] I thought you were going for my load.

[00:05:17] They must work.

[00:05:19] They must make money.

[00:05:22] But more than that we must experience everything, not just the good but degradation, horror, sadness.

[00:05:30] This makes us whole Bella.

[00:05:33] Makes us people of substance, not flighty untouched children.

[00:05:38] Then we can know the world.

[00:05:41] And when we know the world, the world is ours.

[00:05:46] I want that.

[00:05:48] Now, go and fuck someone and bring me 10 francs.

[00:05:55] And you worked with Jörgos Lantimos.

[00:05:57] You yourself are Greek, I understand.

[00:06:00] I'm going to try to say your beautiful name.

[00:06:03] Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:06:06] That's perfect, Christina.

[00:06:09] Oh really?

[00:06:10] Yes, thank you.

[00:06:11] Yes, my parents were both Greek.

[00:06:13] My mother from Piraeus, my father from Shea.

[00:06:18] And my twin sister and I that were born in New York.

[00:06:25] But then my parents emigrated again.

[00:06:27] So we grew up from when we were two years old in London.

[00:06:33] And so we're sort of Londoners with a Greek cultural background.

[00:06:40] We'd go to the Greek Orthodox Church every Sunday, speak Greek at home.

[00:06:45] But attended a Catholic primary school, church of England Secondary School

[00:06:51] and went to British universities.

[00:06:53] I went to Bristol and then to Radar.

[00:06:58] So there's a great connection with Greece, you know.

[00:07:02] But also a great connection with the UK, you know.

[00:07:06] Of course.

[00:07:07] What was it like to work with Jörgos?

[00:07:10] He seems very playful in his process with the actors and with your Greek origin.

[00:07:16] Yeah, Jörgos is an extraordinary person.

[00:07:20] It's kind of a cliche what is a Greek, what is an Italian.

[00:07:25] I think sometimes Mediterranean are regarded as kind of flamboyant, loud,

[00:07:33] making lots of large gestures and Jörgos is contained, minimalist, very intellectual.

[00:07:41] But also inside you can tell very passionate and playful as well.

[00:07:49] So we went to Budapest and there was some rehearsal with Emma and Willem and Mark.

[00:08:00] And we played wild games, physical games.

[00:08:04] And he asked us to know the text inside out, which of course for Emma was a big ask.

[00:08:13] And to be able to kind of say it, he didn't want us to intellectualize.

[00:08:18] So we never sat down and talked about the themes as it were.

[00:08:23] He wanted us to be instinctual.

[00:08:26] So very wild physical and verbal games, which is fantastic.

[00:08:32] Apparently Olivia Coleman told me that when they did the favorite,

[00:08:38] Jörgos took the Cp in a bouch and said, that's how physical I want you all to be.

[00:08:45] And Olivia said, good, you know, in the favorite, there was hugely physical and he had two in terms of,

[00:08:54] I mean, if you think, I think swine is more contained, but Mark Ruffalo is it and and and Emma,

[00:09:04] because of the emotions they have to scan, you know, that they're hugely, hugely physical.

[00:09:13] Yeah, Emma goes she just the whole gambit from baby to adult woman and just her physicality.

[00:09:20] It's quite remarkable.

[00:09:22] Yes. And the amazing dance that they do.

[00:09:25] It's in his psyche a sense that a story is all is told, of course visually, of course, there were very contoured text,

[00:09:36] but also physically, you know, which I could really connect to having worked with the theater company,

[00:09:44] and then there's the complexity, which is the basis of their work.

[00:09:49] As I said, I connected to Jörgos because he very much has that sense of the detail of story also through a physicality.

[00:09:59] Speaking of that physicality in Joel Cohen's The Tragedy of Macbeth, of course,

[00:10:05] where this is really comes to bear the physicality of your acting when you do the three witches.

[00:10:22] Oh, being sister.

[00:10:25] Getting some wine, sister. Where they are?

[00:10:34] Look what I have.

[00:10:36] Show me. Show me.

[00:10:39] Here I have a sailor's dove, wrecked as homeward he did come.

[00:10:48] A drum. A drum.

[00:10:55] So it is just thrilling to see what you do here. What was the process of making these witches almost crow like?

[00:11:04] Yeah, so I have to say Christina that it was one of the most extraordinary exquisite privileged honors that I've had.

[00:11:17] Joel and Francis would follow our theater work. They'd seen complete day back in the day.

[00:11:26] The we this time is with my husband, Marcelo Manny, who was my late husband.

[00:11:33] So they would follow our work and it was a delight.

[00:11:37] I remember one of the times I was most excited was when Joel came to New York.

[00:11:42] I was doing this time a collaboration with a Japanese theater director in which I was playing a Japanese businessman.

[00:11:49] Anyway, sort of horror thriller and Joel came and Francis and said Joel said afterwards I didn't know what was going to happen.

[00:11:58] So I thought for a master storyteller to say that that was but anyway they would come and one day I was doing.

[00:12:06] I was in Greece. I was actually performing at the ancient theater of Epidaurus.

[00:12:10] I opened my emails and there was an email from Joel saying, oh Catherine I'm doing tragedy of Macbeth.

[00:12:17] For film I wondered if you'd be interested in doing the witches and that was just some email.

[00:12:28] So we started talking and then Joel said I asked him the usual thing.

[00:12:36] Do you think they're in his head? Are they real or are they in his head?

[00:12:41] He said both.

[00:12:44] And we started a dialogue over about I would say at least nine months and the great, great provocation that he gave.

[00:12:56] And they said they seem to me like crows and standing stones.

[00:13:03] So off I went you know when a director gives you a prompt like that you just go off and research crows and practice being a crow.

[00:13:12] But he said they're real as well. So I imagine the kind of what sort of women would live on a battlefield.

[00:13:20] But of course crows scavenge and they have the reputation of being half inches of death.

[00:13:26] But they're on the battlefield because of the carnage that people have brought there.

[00:13:33] And if you go back in mythology they have the reputation for divination for diviners of the future.

[00:13:44] So putting lots of pieces together and then for instance Fran and Joel came to London and they brought a bit of a costume which was like a sort of a hood.

[00:14:00] I brought a black stocking and I put it over my face in my arms and I got on the little coffee table and started being a crow and Joe filmed it.

[00:14:10] And then he said yeah, I like that. So started evolving a kind of creature.

[00:14:18] The idea first was that we would train other actors or dancers in my physicality and have three witches.

[00:14:31] But eventually you know we arrived at it would be just the one.

[00:14:36] Yeah and sort of possessed that she would hold all the text.

[00:14:41] And so I did a lot of research about multiple personality disorder or so they were mixture of a woman and disturbed.

[00:14:52] You know how it is with the witches there's always the history in certainly in England I'm showing the state is it's women who are outside the norms.

[00:15:06] Yes, once you would burn. Exactly and probably based on just them being different.

[00:15:14] Just fear. Yeah exactly so I tried to find a real creature who might want revenge and yet and then inflict it with this sense of the birds because I thought if people have multiple personality disorder why can't they imagine that they're crows or stones

[00:15:34] or you know the imagine the imagination can go anywhere. And once we evolved this language then Joe and Fran you know sort of said would sort of choreograph we had costume fittings in which it wasn't just.

[00:15:49] Oh put on the costume that looks good. So I had to sort of be the witch in the costume fitting.

[00:15:55] And then I remember Francis said one day there's too much material you know that we can't see what Catherine's doing. So it was a sort of it was a wonderful process.

[00:16:06] I was in heaven.

[00:16:10] Tell me if you're uncomfortable talking about this now completely understand you had a very horrible car accident when you were at Radha.

[00:16:19] How did it all impact your physical acting or how you got into physical acting.

[00:16:25] Well, you're asking just about the injuries and everything I was doing.

[00:16:31] I think in a way, I sort of learned to work that there were great possibilities within restriction found freedom and restriction I was playing.

[00:16:44] And I was doing and went back to Radha. And there was a term with Kenneth Branagh and John sessions and we do a musical called Lady be good and I was playing Josephine Vander water.

[00:16:56] The hostess of hostess and the set design had built, you know, you know, long staircase, you know, the set of stairs to come down.

[00:17:06] You know, Ken very kindly reached out his arm to be kind of with dread and how she's going to come down those stairs. But I realized that this was after your injuries you're saying yes when I went back.

[00:17:18] And I realized that there's a lot of possibilities in the upper body.

[00:17:24] So I came down the stairs very slowly and just sort of brought into play the upper body and there's so much you can do as disabled actors or dancers with disability have shown, you know, there are great range or sports people.

[00:17:40] So I've always been overored with what people can do in the people with disabilities. So that's been an inspiration in the Paralympics for example.

[00:17:52] I have to ask you about your incredible voice. How you've used this and what sort of roles people have gravitated towards in terms of this voice that we recognize so much.

[00:18:03] All right, it's so strange because the winner was a teenager member doing some evening classes in drama or something and and somebody saying to me, Oh no, no, you can't be an actor.

[00:18:18] Your rib cage is too small. So I don't know if it was training with Radha and learning how to use the voice.

[00:18:36] I'm just thinking if I'd had a very light voice, if I would have been asked to play Leah or if that was more to do with having having it was a sort of second training with it to complete today where the premise there was not you should play the parts that you look like.

[00:18:57] It was you play anything if you can imagine it then then have a go. So I played children and old people and men. I played a pantalone figure. I played the old shepherd in the winter's tale.

[00:19:14] I played the Japanese businessman and then got asked to play Leah, British III in an all female production at the globe. And I've always gravitated toward the male hearts, I think because maybe there's more being written for women now but sort of 25 years ago, the more interesting parts were for men.

[00:19:39] Do you know what I mean? I think that's that's beginning to change. Would you say that just your film poor things is a sign as to what amazing films we can do about the female experience so I think so I hope so we could do with even more.

[00:20:00] Yeah.

[00:20:34] Okay, toss wherever you get your podcasts or at evergreenpodcast.com by the power vested in us we pronounce you free to plan your day your way. One of your incredible characters is from one of the biggest IPs and that's and or ed car.

[00:20:56] What do you make of ed car. It just leapt off the page. It just I thought, oh my goodness. Always. I'm always fascinated by writers process. I thought this is somebody he knows. I think a lot of actors as actors we try not to judge the people that we play.

[00:21:15] So she's an overwhelmingly possessive overbearing in some ways dominating mother who just know a backstory probably other husband who's maybe walked out and I was something but just needs to live through her son and therefore is kind of an incredibly possessive and and

[00:21:44] and domineering. And he finds it unbearable, which of course results in a sort of that comic disconnect. You know.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Now I was talking to Stella and Scott about Tony Gilroy and what an amazing writer he is for you for actors that that and he was saying that there's so much that he writes between the lines and you can feel with Edie that she is a and with your acting of her as well that she's a hard and

[00:22:19] domineering character but you can feel that there's some kind of sadness behind the situation she's in which I attribute both your portrayal of her and Mr Gilroy's writing.

[00:22:30] That's right. Yeah, incredibly lonely woman incredibly and I guess one is all known women who's that that was my backstory for her that

[00:22:44] was my husband who's walked out and living vicariously through her son and has somehow landed in values that are, you know, unless he's successful unless then then there's failure.

[00:23:04] So there's I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the second series because that's not out yet.

[00:23:13] But there's a development in the relationship with her son's girlfriend is a meeting which has yes.

[00:23:27] Implications. Yes.

[00:23:30] What's it like working with I mean this is of course a huge the fan base for the Star Wars universe and everything that it has with it and all the historical connotations of this series what's it like to work in such massive IP is this and what does Tony Gilroy bring to

[00:23:49] Tony at the time there was COVID so he was stuck in New York, but there would be many many zooms and the brilliant designer forgive me.

[00:24:03] My brain is a bit of a production design and the costume designer I must try and look it up as we're talking. I mean who was a genius because I think his remit was this is Star Wars, but not you can be.

[00:24:18] We're departing there. It's a different it is a freedom there but of course there had to be some nod some recognition of a of a world that people would have seen and yet did it could develop and he did an extraordinary work.

[00:24:41] So our costume fittings were very very detailed and long with him finding the right colors, the right shapes that would denote the character but be of the world.

[00:25:02] I think it's brilliant work. I had never done such long details costume fittings until I went to work with Francis Ford Coppola and his designer Milena Nero.

[00:25:17] I tell you about that in a minute, but so and then the look gets sent to Tony he approves also the hair and makeup lots of experimentation.

[00:25:35] So once so once it's approved then you're ready to shoot and before you come out of your trailer, you have to wear your secrecy cloak.

[00:25:47] In case there are people lurking to kind of they don't want any pictures taken.

[00:25:53] Oh wow like people the fans are or.

[00:25:55] Yeah, yeah, like a sort of Harry Potter invisibility in visibility cloak but I have to say everybody working on it was of the highest skill and greatly devoted it was also a time of during COVID where I think people came with an extra.

[00:26:16] I don't know if gratitude is the right word but enjoy to kind of come together and make a movie.

[00:26:24] Amazing we can't wait for season two and you mentioned your upcoming project which we have been waiting for and that is for all us huge Francis Ford Coppola fans out there and that's his film Megalogless which you are in a massive project.

[00:26:41] Tell us what you can about this. What is the story and who are you playing.

[00:26:47] I tell you the origins.

[00:26:50] I was in Budapest doing poor things and my agent writes and says we've had a call from Francis Ford Coppola's office asking if you'd mind if we give Francis your email.

[00:27:04] Well, and and he and Francis sent me the script straight away and I of course I stayed up all night and read it and and then we set up a zoom and again I'm not allowed to say I guess but so meeting Francis over zoom apart from being overrode you know thinking

[00:27:34] in my kitchen I'm talking to Francis Ford Coppola after about 10 minutes I was so warmed with Francis is has a kind of he's a sort of a genius huge warmth, huge ashen and tell me about the origin of the project that it was due to start shooting around about the time of 9 11 and because

[00:28:00] it involved a sort of disaster in New York he thought no I can't do this now and without being able to give much away what really impressed me from that conversation and thereafter is that the perspective he throws on humanity is one of hope and I thought

[00:28:23] now here's a man who an extraordinary artist who made apocalypse now for instance and in his 82nd year is putting forward a film where he believes there is hope and the possibility of change and I thought that was extraordinary and it's not just cursory shall we have a happy ending.

[00:28:53] It's it's deeply rooted and not to say that there isn't a recognition of human cruelty and so selfishness and all the kind of destructive possibilities of human beings but that's where the film lands without giving too much away and that impressed me and moved me deeply deeply and still does.

[00:29:22] Can you say who your character is.

[00:29:24] I think I'm allowed to say that it centers around.

[00:29:29] And it centers around Natalie Emmanuel is playing Julia and she's our daughter.

[00:29:39] And I'm the first place Frank Cicero and I am Harry Cicero his wife and so who's daughter according to her father is wayward and has a relationship that with the so called opposition who is Adam driver.

[00:30:00] It's it's it's about a family drama it sounds like yeah which is so good at.

[00:30:08] And how and he makes the whole experience a family a family situation he's very demanding and and it's not an easy ride you know because creatively he's his mind is exploding every minute so people have to be very alert but for instance I think it was the first week I was there.

[00:30:30] It was and this is particularly sad now because of Eleanor's passing.

[00:30:35] It was a 65th wedding anniversary and he invited all the cast and crew into the studio and there was wine as for his wine.

[00:30:50] Eleanor told stories about how they met and and Francis did and we toasted them.

[00:30:59] And then I came on set one day I think I'm allowed to tell this story and I was so they were evidently so much in love.

[00:31:10] And so we were doing a night shoot of a particular scene and they got I got quite late and this tiny lady sat on Francis.

[00:31:25] You know age I don't know he said he said to I think she was a little older yes I think she was 85 that's wonderful and there was just a teddy Christina I just my heart melted.

[00:31:39] I mean I particularly I had lost I just lost my husband.

[00:31:43] We were very very close much a little money and extraordinary extraordinary actor particularly gifted in comedy skills.

[00:31:54] I was very happy that he got to speak to Francis on the zoom.

[00:31:59] But anyway so so and and a beautiful relationship you know and then we were supposed to go to Atlanta to do some ADR.

[00:32:17] Francis wanted wanted us there and then Eleanor got ill and then so we did it in a studio in London and then with him on zoom.

[00:32:28] And then he was so happy you know because he had recovered.

[00:32:32] He said some miracles he's recovered but yeah it wasn't to be I hope the same as with my husband one just appreciates you know and so grateful for the years we did have together and the art you made together both you and your husband and

[00:32:51] yeah yeah yeah what's the relationship what's the relationship did you ever meet her Christina.

[00:32:59] I didn't but I was a huge admirer one of the most important books or book notes about the Pocots now and of course one of the best documentaries on filmmaking ever made a hearts of darkness so and I've interviewed Sophia who I'm a huge fan of and studies the Coppola very much when I went to film school so I feel very

[00:33:21] very much like their filmmaking is part of my sort of human experience.

[00:33:28] Considering the incredible performances that he's brought out be it you know Marlon and in the Godfather or Martin Sheen or what does he do with you actors how does he.

[00:33:40] Yeah well so we did have a short rehearsal process where he would get us to improvise the scenes and I mean literally improvise the whole scene and he said who wrote this this is terrible he'd say just you know say it in your own words

[00:33:58] and then afterwards he'd say that was terrible do my words they were much better you know but he would provoke you know so he didn't want us to just come to the lines cold he wanted us to be living the situations and and sometimes he would rewrite you know on the day and he would never

[00:34:20] but maybe the some huge scenes where there were cranes and you know in this in the smaller scenes it would always start with improvisation with improvising this the situation so he's thinking as the characters he kind of puts himself into them and his direction is

[00:34:50] into it thing what it's like to be those people.

[00:34:57] It's an incredible world so megalopolis and and or two of course coming so so much you we have to look forward to with your work.

[00:35:08] Thank you very much for taking your time with me and I'm really honored for this opportunity and cannot wait to see your coming projects.

[00:35:17] Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Bye bye for now.

[00:35:22] Thank you so much to Catherine Hunter don't miss the Oscar winning poor things out now season two of Ander is coming in 2025 and Coppola's megalopolis is set to premiere in Cannes next week and thank you so much for listening Pop Culture Confidential is part of the Evergreen podcast network.

[00:35:41] Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts see you next time.

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