To Gossip or not to gossip?

[00:00:07] We all do it, we've all been recipients of it. They say women do it more than men What are we talking about? We're talking about gossip. That's something I think we're all familiar with and Like it or not. It's part of our social world

[00:00:21] Shunali you had a recent interesting episode where you were at the receiving end of some gossip You want to talk about it? Yeah You know the thing is we've all at different points in our lives been at the receiving end of gossip and we've also

[00:00:33] indulged in gossip, but this was especially amusing because you reach a certain age in life where you think will be spared some aimless malicious Gossip. It was not even smart to be labeled malicious. It was just stupid. About three four weeks ago at At a lunch

[00:00:54] In a room full of women. I was having a wonderful conversation with another friend I bumped into and Then I was traveling I was overseas when I came back I heard from her that both of us had been a subject of gossip and

[00:01:11] Everybody was talking about how the two of us have had a fight You know, this is so strange because it was a non-event I mean not only did we not have a fight. We didn't even have an argument We had a perfectly civilized conversation there was music

[00:01:27] So perhaps we were straining to talk to each other or it looked like we were having a serious conversation and Many people after I've come back have called me and asked me about it and you know, she was perplexed because both of us thankfully sorted and

[00:01:44] laughed it off and that made me realize that Now, you know, you sort of you reach a stage an age in life where you are untouched by this But why do people gossip and are there different degrees of gossip are they different, you know verticals under

[00:02:03] harmless gossip humble gossip malicious gossip and I wanted to since we are talking about malicious gossip right now people talking about other people's lives and like Eleanor Roosevelt said that you know Great people talk about ideas Average people talk about things Small people talk about other people

[00:02:25] So you would think that by the time women reach their 40s mid 40s and early 50s they would get over Talking about other people and slandering them. Why do you think you're in people? slander people through gossip even at this age

[00:02:41] There is a sense of catharsis in some way that you're bringing somebody down So gossip actually does serve some sort of a social function It creates a sense of intimacy or bonding with the person you're gossiping with sure

[00:02:55] You're sharing something that you don't want them to share with somebody else, which they of course immediately will which of course You know as well But in that moment in that moment of sharing this bit of malicious gossip

[00:03:06] You are together your clues you bonded and you are an inner circle that nobody else can you know? penetrate Penetrate Then there's also that as versus the other Like we are so good that we can afford to pass judgment on somebody else

[00:03:23] So you do it basically to feel good about yourself. It lights up certain sections of your brain Talking negatively about other people Yeah, there's a reward system in the brain that tells you that but you are good

[00:03:35] But you're good and because you're good you can see that what this person is doing is bad Therefore you must talk about it But don't you think that inherently it's deeply insecure people Who engage in the kind of gossip where they are bringing in trashing other people? gossip

[00:03:56] Has got degrees as you said malicious gossip toxic gossip Harmless gossip neutral gossip and it has always existed. It is it's a form of social control That's it. That's the right word But who this is what I'm saying who does social control who requires social control

[00:04:12] It's a thing where the group Wants to exercise control over the other members of the group so that you know that if you don't count out to the lines or the boundaries that are set out of behavior of speech of dressing of whatever

[00:04:27] You will be spoken about therefore you will conform or you will be gossiped about and While it is all very good in certain circumstances like if you gossip about somebody's oh he didn't she didn't pay her made for the past three months It's also

[00:04:45] Sort of knowing where somebody is in the social hierarchy Yeah, you know they went bankrupt therefore they had to sell off. Yeah cars Yeah, so that is how it goes around It's a form of social control of but

[00:04:58] Psychologists say and I did read up on this because we were going to talk about this today that Psychologists say that there are various reasons why people gossip so one like you said is to bond with each other better To create a sense of community with each other

[00:05:12] Third is as you mentioned to exercise control fourth is that the psychology of a person who does Slander and the kind of gossiping where they reduce other people to rubble or do character assassination are inherently insecure people who

[00:05:30] Who actually are at that stage in their life where they don't have very much else to make them feel good about themselves in terms Of achievement or contribution to society and

[00:05:38] Come to think of it if you see that people who are genuinely busy working and creating things and doing things with their lives Don't even have the time to really sit and trash other people But yes Gossip is so old that even the fact that in mythology Sita

[00:05:56] Had to leave Ayodhya because and go and live in a hut with her children later on and while making Ashram was because the Fisher the the washerman The in in Ayodhya gossip and said that you know

[00:06:11] She's tainted because she's gone and lived with another man for four months How do we know what was going on right that would that those were the? Pressures that made Ram Sender Ram Sender it so Gossip had obviously that kind of gossip has always been

[00:06:30] Obviously that kind of gossip has always been around That's always been around it has been around from the time humans evolved from the caves and came into agricultural settlements according to psychologist evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar he's come out with a theory of Social theory of gossip okay

[00:06:50] It is the way the people kept check about what was happening in the community Who was to be trusted who was not to be trusted who was to be fed who was not to be fed

[00:07:00] Who was to be married who was leeching of them who was no good doing no work And this was a filtration system that communities employed right in the absence of actual you know data check-in in CC camps I mean even today

[00:07:14] We know you know the auntie sitting on the water tank looking at everyone coming in and out are the best CCTVs You could have in a societal complex totally yes, so gossip serves that function Malicious gossip is an outcome of the nature of the individuals

[00:07:28] Well, it's a reflection on the person gossiping But otherwise gossiping is an evolutionary function that helps human beings survive and thrive and know whom to Stay or clear off and whom to trust as you as you just mentioned and actually Fake news

[00:07:45] Rumor gossip be the overlapping subjects and fake news so again It was you know the it was the foundation of sitas leaving Ayodhya was fake news right and today we live in the era of post truth and fake news

[00:08:03] We do right it's very difficult to distinguish between the truth and the fakes because this is what we've come to They see the foundation of this is one is information gathering and information Dissemination but the other is conveniently believing the untruth because it suits your narrative

[00:08:27] And because you couldn't be bothered to really get down to the basics and check on What's real and what's not real absolutely? While you know you do have personal gossip, and you do have reputations ruined for no rhyme or reason

[00:08:43] In the business world in the corporate world gossip does serve a very important purpose I was chatting with one of the founders of one of our apps for women and she was telling me something really interesting About the informal network that existed in the diamond industry

[00:08:59] So there's this very big diamond Brand and merchant who we all know is abroad now having run off you can name Meera Modi okay, okay, so he's gone off. She says the entire diamond community knew that his money was no good

[00:09:17] Okay, but it took so long for it to come out But if this informal network had been tapped earlier It would have saved so much grief for everyone else But the fact is that this network this information stays within the network. It doesn't come out

[00:09:32] I think it doesn't come out of the player is off a certain social standing People find it far easier to gossip about somebody who is less of a Less of a threat to them because the stakes are low

[00:09:46] Neera Modi was a very big player with very powerful connections And that is why information like this might not have leaked because nobody wanted to you know Take their chances Paradoxically we tend to gossip about people who we envy

[00:10:01] We do not gossip about people. We don't care about I think envy Yes, but people with connections people are wary of gossiping. God. Yeah, so there is I mean, right. Can we talk look at that now?

[00:10:14] Gossiping about people we envy or people who are at a higher social strata people we can we aspire to be like But we can't for whatever reason maybe wealth maybe looks if they have something that we don't have we are going to gossip about them

[00:10:27] Yeah, because we want to bring them down to our level We want to show that but do you know what is hard it happening that if I'm around people and I can speak About myself how I am now. Okay when I was younger I have enjoyed

[00:10:41] People we all are gossiping and I've participated in it, but I'm speaking about growing older and being more mature I do not get my jollies out of hearing anybody trashed and I've noticed that when somebody is sitting and talking about slandering someone if you defend that person

[00:10:59] It does somehow But either people will make fun of you and say oh, please you know, why you do you also naive? You can't even see this about them and the other is

[00:11:12] Either immediate reaction immediate reactions. They become guarded because they feel that you are judging them, which is great A person who's sitting and making a breakfast out of judging another person the minute you You know stand up to it. They really feel

[00:11:29] Threatened and they're bullies see people who gossip in groups do it for attention seeking Right there are enough people that you and I know who do it because they are They love the attention it brings them they love to be the people who are breaking this news

[00:11:46] You know, babe. I have to tell you this don't tell anyone and Their bullies in a way Yeah, we had the entire series gossip girl Which was all about these mean girls bullying other but you know You could forgive them for being so because they were younger women

[00:12:01] Without a sense of Scripturally every from the Bible to the Bhagavad-gita everybody says that you know, don't gossip don't gossip In fact, there's a parable of one one sage walked into a guy's home and asked for food and That person served him food

[00:12:21] But there was a beetle that had fallen into a dead beetle that was in the in the meal So this sage cursed him And walked away from there

[00:12:31] so a few days later another sage passed by and this guy offered him a meal and he was careful this time and then he Was quite disturbed by the curse because those days curses used to materialize

[00:12:43] Yeah, so he said that you know, I was cursed by this sage for this reason. So can you help me? He said will you be able to deal with a little social? You know He said definitely that over, you know me dying or something tragic happening to me

[00:12:58] So this sage said okay leave it to me. It'll be done. So he Traveled away from there and he started a rumor Quite ghastly actually of incest that this man was sleeping with his own daughter Alert and it created quite a stir

[00:13:13] But very soon it died down and then this man went on to live a long and healthy life But very soon it died down and then this man went on to live a long and healthy life

[00:13:22] So when he bumped into the sage again, the sage said how did it pan out? He said he had cursed me that a family will perish but we all doing well He said you see by gossiping all those people have reduced your karma karma

[00:13:34] Oh, so you should thank people who gossip about you because they reduce your karmic burden. Yeah They're serving you in a way. Please gossip about me everybody. I know right now start Immediately but did you know that in

[00:13:48] In medieval Scotland, they actually had invented a device to stop women from gossiping That's right. It was called the Scholes brittle school school's brutal or the cross it brittle in the 16th century 16th century Okay, and it sounds very painful

[00:14:04] It was a mask put over your head and it had something with the spike which was inserted in your mouth So you couldn't move your tongue? I'm thinking They really took gossiping seriously back then It actually gossip comes from the word God Sibb

[00:14:22] God is God Sibb is a relative. So in the medieval times Gossip as a word meant confiding in somebody who you were close to Okay, and like who was a relative But then when women in that era started to step out of their homes and gossip I guess

[00:14:46] you know all the patriarchal society would have felt really unsettled by that because They must have definitely gossiped about men and what was going on in different families you know in terms of affairs and finances and and so that is when this contraption was invented because

[00:15:04] Women in the village square began to threaten The patriarchal society of the time how interesting very interesting because actually gossip is a form of women Is a means by which women empowered themselves with knowledge about various things, right? Okay

[00:15:20] now it's very interesting that we keep talking about gossip and we keep talking about women because research does show That men are equal gossipers if not more who for sure as women

[00:15:30] They only do it in a different way a woman might come and tell you like hey, what's the gas a? Man is in catch a red Correct, but that's what they do. They're women gossip traditionally about relationships and about people and their looks okay

[00:15:49] Men gossip about achievement. So a man will say over that guy just exaggerates his network Those kind of things, but they gossip nonetheless nonetheless Yes, and interestingly this bias continues if you type in gossip in Google images So you'll get 67% of women

[00:16:07] Women's faces and get a small percentage of male faces or you get groups, but the overwhelming Image that you'll get is that women gossip We gossip in Shakespeare's care in Shakespeare's plays. It's often the menu gossip think about Iago in Hello. Yeah all the loose gossip that got

[00:16:29] That killed people. Yeah, but what wives killed for no rhyme or reason. Yeah absolutely, but Apart from the function it plays apart from the joy it gives apart from you know The destruction and the mayhem it can wreck

[00:16:46] Why are we gossiping we're gossiping because you know in ancient when we were when we were primates We were picking fleas off each other. We can't pick fleas off each other anymore. So we gossip is that right? Yeah, that's the theory that there's a bonding between people so

[00:17:04] That intimate act of picking, you know, how about doing embroidery together? By the way, that's a trend all over again. Oh look at the cone is doing some Embroidery because for mindfulness and worldwide that's caught on so women, you know in Jane Austen novels

[00:17:20] they're always sitting around and hemming and sewing and Doing cross stitch which is excellent. Actually, I'm going to get some I want to get some knitting needles No, no, no, I'd rather go for a silent book club. I'm not going to do any that's not mindfulness

[00:17:34] I don't have to talk to anybody in gossip and do I? Because you're so busy focusing on that Also, the thing is if you're gossiping about you know, so-and-so goes to this salon and she looks so good

[00:17:45] That's harmless. Yeah, that's neutral gossip. That's information sharing. That's positive gossip Yeah, even that is that so-and-so's husband's in the ICU Yeah, it's just information is just information sharing listen Don't tell I told you and then you reach out to the person sick and I send you food

[00:18:02] So I mean that's positive. That's fine. What is the difference between gossip and rumor? rumors are Something which is unsubstantiated right? It's a facts. It's not fact It's not a fact and a gossip is hearsay something that you've heard from somebody else

[00:18:17] Which could be true over could be false. There's again that three filters And gossip overlap in a certain way you could have a Venn diagram out of it Yeah, but those three filters right that if you haven't seen it yourself if you haven't heard it yourself

[00:18:30] I haven't been told of it yourself. Please no. No, no that one is speak it Okay, one is that someone comes to somebody and says I need to give you some gossip on X person and he says that

[00:18:44] Do have you seen it yourself so he says no there are three filters He said is it good or bad? So he said it's negative So he said so what you have not seen you want to share that negative information about somebody with me

[00:18:58] Third is it of any use to me? He said not really sheepishly He said so you want to tell me something that you don't know yourself is true And it was negative in nature and it is all no use to me. So please bear me this

[00:19:10] Yeah, but what would you know sometimes it's fun. It's fun I mean look at us devouring the lives of all the celebrities around the world Look at that Paris Hilton, right making an entire career and what about all the magazine starters and everything back in the day?

[00:19:25] Look, we all love juicy Bollywood gossip and the blind items in the newspaper but I think that the reason people enjoy Bollywood gossip or Hollywood gossip is also because you don't know these people and You don't attach a morality

[00:19:41] While talking about them because you it's not like you're letting people down or causing damage to their lives They are beyond your reach. Yeah, you know, you're emotionally invested in them in a way distant way I forget the term that used for it

[00:19:55] But you are attached to them but it's not a personal attachment and the way you're personally attached to somebody you know in real life that you're gossiping about correct and It doesn't matter what you say. Well, that's fun. Actually, yeah, of course

[00:20:07] I mean entire industry will go bankrupt if we stop this and speaking of gossip, I think the worst gossip though across Decades that I've heard was the one concerning poor Richard Gere remember? I mean that just wouldn't die my mind's eye poor guy right

[00:20:28] It involved a rodent. Yeah and Certain places with the sun doesn't shine. I bet he knows about it himself. Of course, of course How can he not? Yeah, and it is so potent you still question whether it is gossip or founded on fact Yeah, I mean

[00:20:46] When they say there's no smoke without fire would recently what I witnessed was smoke without fire with my own, you know So gossip carries on gossip and long legs and this Churchill said a lie can get around the world faster than truth

[00:20:59] Can put its pants on I know and that's how political parties use it. So effectively propaganda Yeah all the time but listen in the day of whatsapp my god, I Mean gossip really travels at the speed of light

[00:21:15] You just press send and you reached a group and everybody knows Nobody questions it also. Yeah, which is why propaganda is so easy these days, isn't it? Nobody's using their brains anymore. You just accept things blindly. Okay, somebody has said it and it's come on whatsapp

[00:21:31] Therefore it is God's own truth and I must believe it. So, okay Let me ask you what is the worst gossip you've heard about yourself So there's no gossip that I know about Personally, it hasn't reached my ears yet

[00:21:41] I'm not that important to be gossiped about but there was a rumor that I had died Well, that's very important of you. It happens only to big celebs. No, but It happened on Twitter. It was not very important. It was very humbling because after that I said hello

[00:21:55] I'm very much alive here. He says sorry. I confused you with somebody else. Oh dear So that was a total awkward moment happened there Yeah, but gossip played a vital role in at least the Indian me too movement

[00:22:09] Yeah, that's what I said, you know women talking with other women is a form of empowerment because you tell each other what is happening Yeah, and with the school's brittle That's what they try to shut now with all the cases against the women who have spoken out

[00:22:25] This is also what they're trying to shut. It's a new form of thing Is now like we always say that you know the pendulum will swing The other way before it can come in the middle and get balanced. The thing is that

[00:22:38] Apparently there were some cases which weren't entirely true. Hmm, that's true and I Mean the jury is out there on that and we are not here to comment on that But the larger goal of me too was accomplished because men became careful and very yeah

[00:22:54] I mean they knew they can't get away with what they've been getting away for so very long Absolutely, and of course there was some collateral damage and we are sorry to those sorry for that But it is what it is

[00:23:05] We're talking about gossip Shinali, you know, we talk about gossip in personal situations in private lives and whatever But gossip is such an important role in offices We've all been in offices where you know, you felt left out because the supta break Yeah

[00:23:18] You couldn't join in and that was the time of gossip I mean if you watch the office, you know how Dwight moves the water cooler right next to his desk So that he could eat and stop all the conversations happening at water coolers

[00:23:30] So it's like the oil that greases the wheels of social functioning within any corporate organization It's essential but have you noticed it every firstly everyone gossips right as discussed, but everyone likes to say Babe, I don't gossip

[00:23:46] You know, I don't like to gossip but but right and then the disclaimer and then this follows This is too tempting not to share. Yeah, this is too tempting Yeah, and I can only tell you this because you're close to me

[00:23:57] But you know, my dad had a very interesting take on this he used to say that if someone if there's some malicious gossip about you and someone

[00:24:08] Joyfully passes it onto you and gets their jollies from doing this that you know, Kiran they said blah blah blah, which is Not good for you to even want to know

[00:24:16] You don't know this because it's just going to make you feel negative about the situation and you don't need that You don't need that right so he said whenever someone does that they're not a well-wisher because the well-wisher will quash the gossip then and there

[00:24:28] And kill it without bringing it back to you Because the person who is telling you this wants to see a reaction and take it back to the and he will enjoy the Hurt you even if he doesn't take it back. They're going to enjoy the pain

[00:24:41] It's going to cause you the suffering is going to cause you there's some sadism and perversion in that So once something similar happened somebody came to me and said this is what they're saying about you and I said and what?

[00:24:51] Did you say exactly and at that moment? I think our friendship ended completely Yeah, so that's what it is I think We all gossip as long as harmless fun gossip. That's fine. But who is to define harmless and fun?

[00:25:07] No, no harmless and fun is talking about some movie stars. Yeah, I'm talking with some politicians But it's I think when you're slandering people and talking about people then you know Sharing the character to bits

[00:25:21] That's a power trip that you are on and it's very important you to recognize that it speaks more about you than it does About the other person, you know, it's attention seeking its insecurity

[00:25:31] It is wanting to feel superior to the other person and it is a kind of very very very Insidious kind of boredom because in your own life There's nothing happening right now to make you feel good about yourself. So you're piggybacking on somebody else's

[00:25:48] That's exactly it and there's also shard and Freud a and there is sadism Absolutely all of them put together and people who do indulge in this kind of malevolent to gossip

[00:25:58] They are said to have toxic narcissistic traits. Yeah, and then they end it with oh but poor thing So sad I feel so bad. Yeah Poor guy, I mean, you know, we I can speak for girls because that's how women gossip. Yeah and The

[00:26:16] Funniest thing is that it took me very long to recognize that realizes then I was one of them for longest time That somebody who will gossip with you about somebody else will gossip about you with somebody else

[00:26:27] Yes, so just zip your mouth and say I don't want to know. I'm really not interested. I don't have the bandwidth Please go ahead with somebody else You know, I have a few friends. I have to say some of my loveliest dearest friends today

[00:26:41] We do not gossip because you have a lot more to talk about about I mean the thing is when one person doesn't gossip Then it encourages the other one to not gossip either It's fat

[00:26:51] We don't even gossip about actors or stars or celebrities or whatever because we have so much else to talk about It's wonderful. I Mean that's how it should be and you know, it makes you feel good

[00:27:03] I mean, I I realized the other day a friend of mine was saying to me that she was witness to This bunch of women at a table trashing somebody and enjoying it and she said, you know, she's not here I felt dirty and I

[00:27:16] Know what she meant. Yeah. Yeah because at the end of the day if you're talking about somebody you could be talked about too So it's always a big Yeah Wrestling in the mud the big enjoys it. Yeah, you get dirty. We don't want to get dirty do