In this episode of 'Not Your Aunty', hosts Shunali Shroff and Kiran Manral discuss their concern about sociology students inviting Indrani Mukherjea for a KC College fest despite the fact that she has not been acquitted of murder charges yet.
The topic of public fascination with glamorous criminals is another central point of the discussion. Shunali & Kiran explore the questionable narrative that Mukherjea is pushing, where she portrays herself as a victim of a misogynistic society.
Give it a listen. Tell us what you think about the glamourisation of crime.
00:00 Introduction
00:19 Discussion on Indrani Mukherjea's Controversial Appearance
00:37 Debate on Indrani Mukherjea's Criminal Case
01:07 Reflections on Indrani Mukherjea's Public Image
02:59 Critique of Indrani Mukherjea's College Appearance
04:04 Discussion on Indrani Mukherjea's Book and Literature Festival Appearance
06:27 Analysis of Indrani Mukherjea's Public Narrative
11:02 Discussion on the Jolly Amma Case
12:07 Reflections on the Public Fascination with Criminals
13:23 Discussion on the Legal and Ethical Implications of Indrani Mukerji's Book
24:05 Conclusion and Sign Off
00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hello everyone. This is Shonali Shroff and this is Kiran
00:00:04
Speaker 1: Manral and we are not your auntie.
00:00:09
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of not your
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Speaker 1: Auntie Shali and I have been a little put up
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Speaker 1: with something we saw on social media last week. And, uh,
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Speaker 1: it was about Indrani Mukerjea attending the KC College fest. Kiran,
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Speaker 1: 23 as a guest. Now Shunali has got a bad throat,
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Speaker 1: but she's going to conserve her energy a bit. But
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you about why I found that disturbing.
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Speaker 1: Because
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Speaker 1: Indrani Mukerji, as we all know, has been in a
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Speaker 1: very high profile case where she's been accused of killing
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Speaker 1: her daughter and the case has gone on for a while.
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Speaker 1: She was in custody at the Arthur Road Jail for
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Speaker 1: around six years. She's just been out on bail last year.
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Speaker 1: She has a book out now, and she's being foetid
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Speaker 1: all over the place. And that disturbs me. What about you?
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Speaker 2: So firstly, let me clarify guys. I'm not transitioning from
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Speaker 2: one gender to the other.
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Speaker 2: It's this high a qi poor air quality of Bombay
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Speaker 2: that has sort of given me this horse raspy voice
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Speaker 2: So bear with me. We've all closely followed this, uh,
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Speaker 2: Indrani murder case. We've all witnessed even her son Michael,
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Speaker 2: sharing in his interviews on across media that he got
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Speaker 2: away that night. He would have been murdered. Also, he
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Speaker 2: feared for his death. If you were to leave the
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Speaker 2: audience to play jury,
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Speaker 2: then we've all discussed internally and thought that yes, indeed,
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Speaker 2: it really looks like a murder in cold blood. We've
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Speaker 2: all watched all sort of trials by media and even
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Speaker 2: gone over the evidence in print. And all fingers did
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Speaker 2: point towards in running. Now be that as it may,
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Speaker 2: she's not been acquitted. She's not been acquitted. And a
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Speaker 2: person who's out on bail on such serious charges where
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Speaker 2: that Shea but hasn't been found
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Speaker 2: and en is gone and given some story that she
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Speaker 2: was last seen at some airport somewhere. While she's sitting
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Speaker 2: quiet through this entire process, I find it appalling that
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Speaker 2: society should give a platform to somebody like that to
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Speaker 2: speak from, and you know, whether she's spreading for more
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Speaker 2: lies from there. And how is she going to inspire
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Speaker 2: college students how to get away with murder? How to
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Speaker 2: get away with murder, how to get away with charges
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Speaker 2: of murder, whatever it is. OK, I'm just saying that
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Speaker 2: there's got to be a standard as a society that
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Speaker 2: we need to adhere to.
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Speaker 1: The fact remains that these are college students and the
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Speaker 1: fact that they see her as acceptable to call as
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Speaker 1: a guest, a chief guest or a speaker. Whatever it
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Speaker 1: is I'm not clear on that
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Speaker 1: annoys me, ries me disturbs me because we all know
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Speaker 1: how people who are on the wrong side of law
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Speaker 1: do tend to get lionised to push a point a
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Speaker 1: bit further. We've seen the adulation that Charles Sobra gets
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. We've seen how what kind of a myth
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Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper has become.
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Speaker 1: But the fact remains that Indrani Mukherjee is in the
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Speaker 1: public limelight in the public gaze for a very serious charge,
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Speaker 1: and it is a criminal charge of the worst order
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Speaker 1: and that college students are going to be listening to
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Speaker 1: her and taking her as an icon. Why
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Speaker 2: Ken, for that matter, literature festivals have been inviting her
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Speaker 2: as well, but she
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Speaker 1: has a book out. The fact is that she has
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Speaker 1: a book
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Speaker 2: out so that in itself is bothersome. Absolutely. She was
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Speaker 2: recently speaking at the Koli lit fest
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Speaker 2: and Bachi Karara being ButI fears as she is, doesn't
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Speaker 2: mince words. She did a fantastic interview, at least her
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Speaker 2: end of it and she said, in your reputation precedes you,
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Speaker 2: so you don't need an introduction. Lovely. Apparently in that book,
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Speaker 2: she's really gone on to slam Peter, and she's sort
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Speaker 2: of exonerated herself of every charge and the whole world
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Speaker 2: is evil.
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Speaker 2: Everybody is always always, you know, sort of conspired against her.
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Speaker 2: It's a very unevenly told story, which I think you'd
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Speaker 2: really have to, I guess, leave all sorts of logic
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Speaker 2: behind to believe that she's a poor woman who's been
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Speaker 2: hard done by and everything else has gone wrong with her.
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Speaker 2: She
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Speaker 2: accuse a stepfather of things of Stepfather isn't around to
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Speaker 2: defend himself. The parents have died since, and I don't
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Speaker 2: intend to read the book. Someone sent me a copy
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Speaker 2: and I promptly put it away in Radi because I
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Speaker 2: feel that I can't put myself through this. But I
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Speaker 2: did watch this interview with, but she and, uh but
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Speaker 2: she sharp as ever, didn't let her off easily. But
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Speaker 2: I'm just saying that, OK, just because something is salacious
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Speaker 2: or scandalous and scandal has only a certain amount of
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Speaker 2: fame
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Speaker 2: as a college. At least I understand if Lit Fest
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Speaker 2: are doing it, because now there's a book and they
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Speaker 2: feel she has a story to tell. Whatever their logic be.
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Speaker 2: College colleges cannot be doing this. This is not the
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Speaker 2: example they need to be setting. And it's shameful that
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Speaker 2: KC College went ahead and invited her and then promoted
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Speaker 2: it online on social
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Speaker 1: media. I mean, even if the students did invite her,
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Speaker 1: were there no checks and guards at the higher level?
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Speaker 1: Was the principal not really looking at who the guest
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Speaker 1: list was and whether the guest list was appropriate?
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Speaker 2: You know, when I watched her interview, I was like,
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Speaker 2: How can you lie with such a straight face? And
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Speaker 2: she said something ridiculous. She said to bay that if
00:05:12
Speaker 2: I pause in between my in this interview, it's because
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Speaker 2: I had I developed a stama as a child and
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Speaker 2: the reason for that.
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Speaker 2: But don't think that I'm pausing because I'm coming up
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Speaker 2: with an answer. You see everything she's saying is to
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Speaker 2: manipulate the listener into, like, sort of the narrative feeding
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Speaker 2: to the narrative that she's had some childhood, where she
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Speaker 2: was raped by stepfather and that, I mean, nobody ever
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Speaker 2: heard of time up before this.
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Speaker 1: Listen, there are a lot of people who have had
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Speaker 1: traumatic childhoods. They don't go around killing people at the
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Speaker 1: end of it. Now there's another narrative that she's pushing,
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Speaker 1: that the world is jealous of ambitious, beautiful women.
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Speaker 1: There are a lot of ambitious, beautiful women who have
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Speaker 1: done wonderfully for themselves. We've had Priyanka Chopra. We've had
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Speaker 1: so many wonderful women who have gone and made a
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Speaker 1: name for themselves, not just in India and internationally, and
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Speaker 1: they don't have a criminal record. Also,
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Speaker 2: she goes on saying that I was a media baron.
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Speaker 2: We all know that she had a background in HR
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Speaker 2: and she married Peter Mukherjee, and when he when they
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Speaker 2: floated them when they raised that new company and started
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Speaker 2: that new channel is when she took charge
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Speaker 2: that doesn't make her a media baron. She married somebody
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Speaker 2: with the right resources and ran a company for some
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Speaker 2: time and then ran it to the ground to the
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Speaker 2: ground and then to have all the limelight and attention
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Speaker 2: from everybody and trash Peter continuously through in the book,
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Speaker 2: which is what actually what she's asked her about. She
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Speaker 2: said that you know,
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Speaker 2: you really vilified him. You may not. You may may
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Speaker 2: not have murdered your daughter, but you certainly murdered Peter's reputation.
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Speaker 1: That's actually quite terrible, because I think he stood by
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Speaker 1: her for quite some time. After all, those, uh, the
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Speaker 1: entire thing exploded. And of course, now they're not together anymore.
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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, she built herself
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Speaker 1: on his back. I
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Speaker 2: know. I'm just saying that today I you know, you
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Speaker 2: get married to somebody and he gives mix to the
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Speaker 2: head of the company for a day. You don't go
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Speaker 2: ahead and say that you're a leading industrialist from Asia.
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Speaker 2: I remember even back then she had issued a press release. Really? Yes.
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Speaker 2: The press release said that Irani Mukherjee is among the
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Speaker 2: top three media moguls from Asia. So
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Speaker 1: the delusions of grande were always there.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't have a problem with the woman
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Speaker 2: being good looking or ambitious.
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Speaker 1: Not at all
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Speaker 2: that when people say she's both beauty and brains, I
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Speaker 2: find that very annoying, because why do they have to
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Speaker 2: be mutually exclusive? But here the thing is, it's a
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Speaker 2: web of lies and everybody else has been vilified. Even
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Speaker 2: your Children couldn't stand you. Your Children have gone on
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Speaker 2: to make statements against you. He wrote an entire book
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Speaker 2: saying that the Devil's Child or something,
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Speaker 2: And then she's later on and, you know, manipulated with
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Speaker 2: and with He's gone and signed some affidavit against Peter
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Speaker 2: in her favour, but at the end of the day,
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Speaker 2: she's a She's a child, as if she's not an
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Speaker 2: underage minor. But I'm saying she's still what, 2021 whatever
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Speaker 2: the age is. But to then call such a person
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Speaker 2: as the chief guest at a college festival is unforgivable.
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Speaker 1: Do we not have enough chief guests worthy people around? Actually,
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Speaker 2: Do you want to, uh, send them a message Ky College,
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Speaker 2: and suggest that they invite,
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Speaker 2: uh, the Jolly Amma, the C for the next year?
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Speaker 2: That might be a good good idea. Can you want
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Speaker 2: to talk about that murder? The jolly murder? I just
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Speaker 1: watched it yesterday. Shi and it's really been playing on
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Speaker 1: my mind since then. There's this lady in Kerala who
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Speaker 1: over the course of many years poisoned around seven members
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Speaker 1: of her family immediate and extended for ridiculous reasons for
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Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous reasons to make her life comfortable. And she
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Speaker 1: did it with such cleverness and such precision.
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Speaker 1: And she only got at court when somebody was suspicious
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Speaker 1: about why she was so happy at the funeral of
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Speaker 1: one of them.
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Speaker 1: Now Jolly Amma is to look at a regular woman
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Speaker 1: like nothing out of the way about her. Not beautiful,
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Speaker 1: not ambitious, Um, perhaps ambitious in her own little circle,
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Speaker 1: but not the level of ambitious, homicidal, ambitious but pure
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Speaker 1: evil at the end of the day, pure evil. And
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Speaker 1: now there's a documentary out on her, and this is
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Speaker 1: what scares me. Actually, Shai, there are so many people
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Speaker 1: doing wonderful good work which never get doesn't get talked
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Speaker 1: about at all.
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Speaker 1: But the moment you kill somebody, you become famous and
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Speaker 1: you become
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Speaker 2: an you Don't give them a platform. That's OK. I
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Speaker 2: was speaking to a psychiatrist friend of mine from the UK.
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Speaker 2: Very interesting. His name is Doctor Sham Rat And he
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Speaker 2: was with the NHS as a practising psychiatrist for some
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Speaker 2: 1819 years.
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Speaker 2: And then he decided that all these mental health cases
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Speaker 2: who become criminals I need representation to by somebody who
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Speaker 2: understands the ticking of a deranged mind, a chemically deranged mind.
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Speaker 2: And so he went and became a barrister. OK, that's interesting.
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Speaker 2: And now he represents these disturbed people who go on
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Speaker 2: to commit heinous crimes.
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Speaker 2: And we were talking about Indrani. This was a few
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Speaker 2: months ago. We were talking about all sorts of psychopathic
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Speaker 2: criminals who go on. You know, there was a serial
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Speaker 2: murderer or nurse in England who went and murdered babies,
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Speaker 2: and there was zero remorse. So he said that, uh,
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Speaker 2: the
00:10:21
Speaker 2: key, the primary indicator for the such people, I asked
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Speaker 2: him I said, Don't they feel guilty later? He said, No,
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Speaker 2: they don't have a conscience. It doesn't prick it. Give
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Speaker 2: them a thrill. So not only isn't not only do
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Speaker 2: they have a fear of consequences, they they delude themselves
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Speaker 2: into believing they'll get away with it.
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Speaker 2: And there is zero remorse. So Indrani, uh, he said
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Speaker 2: that he's, you know, understood the pathology of somebody like
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Speaker 2: Indrani having followed the case closely, he said, just by
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Speaker 2: her mannerism and the way she speaks and goes about
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Speaker 2: there is zero remorse. We are saying, assuming that she
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Speaker 2: really has committed the murder, committed the crime and all
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Speaker 2: of these people,
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Speaker 2: they don't feel guilt ever.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that was pretty apparent in the Jolly Jacob case.
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Speaker 1: Her face had zero guilt. I think she was just
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Speaker 1: very pissed off that her plans had been had gone.
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Speaker 1: All right.
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Speaker 2: There used to be a publication in India back in
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Speaker 2: the day,
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Speaker 2: Uh, called Manohar Kahana. Yes,
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Speaker 1: of course. It was very, very popular,
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Speaker 2: very dark. And it was popular. This is the day of,
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Speaker 2: uh th This is the time when people took trains
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Speaker 2: to get back, get from one place to the other.
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Speaker 2: And
00:11:36
Speaker 2: there was a stash of magazines people picked up and
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Speaker 2: my dad being in the army, we used to travel
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Speaker 2: by trains when our postings happened. And there used to
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Speaker 2: be all these starters in film fair in India today
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Speaker 2: and all these English magazines and my mother would get
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Speaker 2: one copy of Mano Kahana and quickly hide it.
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Speaker 1: Ah,
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Speaker 1: so that you guys
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Speaker 2: couldn't read it. No so that she was. She was
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Speaker 2: ashamed to be dividing these stories, you know. Thankfully, she
00:12:02
Speaker 2: doesn't listen to my podcast because she did not go
00:12:04
Speaker 2: blue in the face denying it today. But the fact
00:12:07
Speaker 2: is that people are drawn to minds that commit crimes,
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Speaker 2: and that's why true crime podcasts are that popular. And
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Speaker 2: that's why I have friends who are hooked on to
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Speaker 2: crime shows. It's a perversion of the mind, and you
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Speaker 2: want to just see how far can somebody go and
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Speaker 2: how brutally
00:12:24
Speaker 2: they can go about committing murders and still continue to
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Speaker 2: live normal lives.
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Speaker 1: Is this some kind of a catharsis for the Watcher?
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Speaker 1: The reader, the onlooker? I think it's
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Speaker 2: catharsis. It's entertainment. It's entertainment.
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Speaker 1: It is entertainment. So the KC College kids. So why
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Speaker 1: would the KC College kids call her? What kind of
00:12:42
Speaker 1: entertainment are they expecting to get from? We
00:12:45
Speaker 2: called her as an author, but even to call her,
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Speaker 2: she's not been acquitted in Ra M, which she has
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Speaker 2: not been acquitted
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Speaker 1: of the crime,
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Speaker 2: and her driver made those statements against. Wasn't there a
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Speaker 2: DNA match as well?
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Speaker 1: I think so. I'm not too. Sure they found the body.
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Speaker 1: Did they find there
00:13:05
Speaker 2: was some hair DNA match? OK, so they know that.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what the story is. I'm
00:13:09
Speaker 2: not a lawyer, so I can we can we Not
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Speaker 2: at
00:13:12
Speaker 1: all. We don't have that.
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Speaker 2: Do we just want to say that if it's not
00:13:15
Speaker 2: Indrani somebody else if they've been acquitted and just because
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Speaker 2: they look glamorous and look a certain way and they've
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Speaker 2: written an article or come out with a book doesn't
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Speaker 2: mean you, you know, sort of fet them
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Speaker 1: and call them to speak to young, impressionable minds. I'm
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Speaker 1: very sorry, but I do not think that this is speaker.
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Speaker 1: Let me
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Speaker 2: ask you a question.
00:13:33
Speaker 2: And we are both authors and really no hard feeling
00:13:36
Speaker 2: against any literature festival. In fact, because all is really
00:13:38
Speaker 2: special lit fest to meet with the first lit fest
00:13:40
Speaker 2: I ever went to as a speaker. But do you
00:13:42
Speaker 2: think that it is warranted for Lit fest because she's
00:13:46
Speaker 2: written a book to invite her? I
00:13:48
Speaker 1: think there needs to be some moral code. I feel
00:13:50
Speaker 1: so too. I mean, just because anybody has written a book,
00:13:53
Speaker 1: you can't call anybody there tomorrow. You know, everything
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Speaker 2: is not about sensationalising, you know.
00:13:58
Speaker 1: And, uh, what are you, platform You have to think
00:14:01
Speaker 1: about what are you platform? What? You're platform You're endorsing
00:14:04
Speaker 1: in a way, right? Yeah. Exactly. And if you're platform
00:14:07
Speaker 1: somebody who has a criminal such a serious criminal charge
00:14:10
Speaker 1: against her, who has not yet been acquitted. What are
00:14:12
Speaker 1: you saying to the rest of the world? That it's
00:14:14
Speaker 1: everything is OK? If you've written a book about
00:14:16
Speaker 2: it, I actually find it. Really? Um, confounding.
00:14:20
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be called a kolli.
00:14:23
Speaker 2: It's all right. We haven't trashed, and we just see
00:14:24
Speaker 2: everybody needs to have a little moral compass about this
00:14:27
Speaker 2: and a sense of responsibility towards society. You know, I
00:14:30
Speaker 2: also find it confounding that if you're good looking and
00:14:32
Speaker 2: a criminal, you get more mileage. Charles Sobra. Good looking. Absolutely.
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy.
00:14:37
Speaker 2: Good looking. Even this Abu Salem Salem was good looking.
00:14:41
Speaker 1: Yes, he was good looking. So this
00:14:44
Speaker 1: I think that, you know beauty is equals to goodness
00:14:47
Speaker 1: is something that we continue to hold. Even though it's
00:14:49
Speaker 1: been proven that beauty does not necessarily equal goodness. Yeah,
00:14:52
Speaker 2: I was reading some Amazon reviews of her book, and
00:14:55
Speaker 2: I'm glad that a lot of people have seen through
00:14:57
Speaker 2: the B SI think. How do courts of law permit
00:15:01
Speaker 2: a person who hasn't been acquitted yet to go out
00:15:04
Speaker 2: and tell the story and,
00:15:05
Speaker 2: you know, manipulate public opinion?
00:15:08
Speaker 1: That's a very important question, Ali. I'm sure there'll be
00:15:10
Speaker 1: some because you
00:15:11
Speaker 2: remember that with the Arushi murder case. When a wrote
00:15:16
Speaker 2: Arushi the book, It was he who wrote
00:15:18
Speaker 1: the book? Yes, not the first person,
00:15:19
Speaker 2: Not the first person, not the relatives. OK, he did
00:15:22
Speaker 2: his own investigation, sort of found a lot of holes
00:15:27
Speaker 2: in the investigation that had already happened by CB and
00:15:32
Speaker 2: then went on to retell the story.
00:15:35
Speaker 2: And he was closely involved with the case because he
00:15:37
Speaker 2: used to witness all the court trials. So he was
00:15:39
Speaker 2: documenting that also, that was very scientifically done in a
00:15:42
Speaker 2: sense and very forensically recorded reported account that was very different.
00:15:46
Speaker 2: This is false equivalence.
00:15:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, it it can't be because
00:15:50
Speaker 2: you can't justify that and say there was an arushi book.
00:15:53
Speaker 2: And so now they're the you know, and so it's
00:15:55
Speaker 2: OK for Indrani to go and tell a story. It's
00:15:58
Speaker 2: not
00:15:58
Speaker 1: OK because Indrani is telling her own story. Aru was
00:16:01
Speaker 1: the the journalist he was the document of the case Exactly.
00:16:06
Speaker 2: So courts courts must not allow that. I'm saying forget publishers,
00:16:11
Speaker 2: Publishers want to make profits and tell a story its
00:16:13
Speaker 2: a business After all, they're not running a charitable organisation.
00:16:16
Speaker 2: But I'm saying that, uh, you know, this should not
00:16:20
Speaker 2: just be allowed legally
00:16:22
Speaker 1: for be for us to tell the courts what to
00:16:24
Speaker 1: do I'm sure the courts know better
00:16:26
Speaker 2: but But this ways public opinion
00:16:28
Speaker 1: it does. And her going on to platforms and talking
00:16:30
Speaker 1: about her experience also sways public
00:16:32
Speaker 2: opinion Me, me poor
00:16:34
Speaker 1: me No beautiful, ambitious woman and bi Chari me don't
00:16:38
Speaker 1: go
00:16:38
Speaker 2: together so much about misogyny. My God! All these little
00:16:42
Speaker 2: interview she's given also are all about It's a misogynistic society.
00:16:46
Speaker 2: You know, if I was if I were a man,
00:16:48
Speaker 2: none of the men who were involved in my story
00:16:50
Speaker 2: were ever accused of anything. And you know my God,
00:16:54
Speaker 2: Please everyone do me a favour. Uh, go and watch
00:16:58
Speaker 2: Bachi Kara's interview with Indrani Mukherjee. I think a late first,
00:17:02
Speaker 2: uh you know, But she's my hero. She's always been.
00:17:05
Speaker 2: And but she says to her, You know, in Rani,
00:17:07
Speaker 2: your Sidat was her ass husband. Hm?
00:17:12
Speaker 2: She said, Now this man has gone on to say
00:17:15
Speaker 2: that I'm the father of the first child which you
00:17:17
Speaker 2: claim you had when your stepfather raped you. And then
00:17:19
Speaker 2: you had Mikhail from him and so easily opt and left.
00:17:24
Speaker 2: And then she gave some cock and bull story. You know,
00:17:26
Speaker 2: just watching that interview reveals so much about the web
00:17:30
Speaker 2: of unconvincing lies that she has spun. See, at
00:17:33
Speaker 1: the end of the day, we know as onlookers looking
00:17:35
Speaker 1: at whatever has come out in the media that this
00:17:38
Speaker 1: is a false narrator.
00:17:40
Speaker 1: This is a complete false narrator of our own life.
00:17:43
Speaker 1: And yet we are willing to buy into this story.
00:17:46
Speaker 1: Yet we are willing to read this book, publish this book,
00:17:49
Speaker 1: put her on a pedestal, get her to speak to
00:17:52
Speaker 1: people about her experiences. Why are we buying into this
00:17:55
Speaker 1: false narrative as a society? What does it say of
00:17:59
Speaker 1: us as a people? That's
00:18:00
Speaker 2: that's That's something to really think about. And on that note,
00:18:04
Speaker 2: I think we can wind this up.
00:18:06
Speaker 1: And with that, this is a wrap on this episode
00:18:08
Speaker 1: of not your auntie. This is Kiran Mal and this
00:18:11
Speaker 1: is Sonali Kerr. Write into us. Tell us what he
00:18:15
Speaker 1: liked and what he didn't like. I'm at Kran Mal
00:18:17
Speaker 1: on all social media. I'm Sonali Kuleshov on
00:18:20
Speaker 2: Instagram and
00:18:21
Speaker 1: Sonali Shroff on Twitter. See you next week.