"Horizon: An American Saga - Chapter 1"

[00:00:00] Shopify grows your business no matter how far or big you grow. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're selling your fans' next favorite shirt or an exclusive piece of podcast merch, Shopify helps you

[00:00:19] sell everywhere. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US. Allbirds, Rothies, Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses

[00:00:43] that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash income, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash income now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Werde zum Torschützen oder VR-Torwart und gewinne coole Preise. Donnerstags bis Samstags

[00:01:15] 11 bis 19 Uhr. Achso, und einkaufen kannst du ja natürlich auch. Spann doch minus Arkaden.de. You are listening to the Next Best Picture Podcast and this is our review of Horizon

[00:02:04] in American Saga Chapter 1. The story is as follows, set in the American Civil War period depicting the expansion of the American West. The film is starring Kevin Costner, Sienna Miller, Sam Worthington, Giovanni Risby, Jenna Malone, Abby Lee, Michael Rooker, Danny Houston,

[00:02:23] Luke Wilson, Isabel Furman, Jeff Fahey, Will Patton, Tanaka, Means, Owen Crowe-Shue, Ella Hunt, Jamie Campbell Bower, and Thomas Hayden Church. It is written and directed by Kevin Costner and written by John Baird. Here to join me today for this podcast review, I have Giovanni Lago. Hello. Hello.

[00:02:47] And Josh Parham. Hello, hello. So, Horizon, what an ambitious storytelling narrative this is, not just in terms of the movie itself or movies, but also to Kevin Costner and what it is he is attempting to

[00:03:05] do here. This guy put up his own money to finance these movies. He abandoned the television show, one of the highest rated television shows currently going today that has in some ways, some might even say rejuvenated his career somewhat, but Kevin Costner wants the

[00:03:27] world to know that he is a movie star, not a television star. And he has honestly bet the farm, literally, not figuratively, and has just given us this epic Western over three hours in length, just barely by one minute. The film, its first chapter had its world

[00:03:52] premiere at the Cannes Film Festival. And we're going to get more of these. We're getting chapter two this August. Chapter three and chapter four are currently in production. And for now, that's all it is. But who knows what else might come of this? I mean, I guess

[00:04:09] it depends on how much money Kevin Costner has to burn. But ultimately, what he's trying to do here is something that I think is very impressive and something that we just don't see that often outside of recently with something like maybe the MCU, where it's long form storytelling

[00:04:26] told over the course of different films. And in many ways, it feels like it's something that should be seen on television, whether in miniseries form or over the course of a couple of seasons. But Costner wants us to go to the movies. He is a movie star, damn

[00:04:42] it. And these are supposed to be reflecting that. So here we are with chapter one, which is what we will be reviewing today. Josh Parham, starting with you because you were at the world premiere at the Cannes Film Festival. What did you think of Horizon, an American

[00:04:58] Saga chapter one? So first of all, going into this movie, I will say that I had a heavy dose of skepticism in regards to this film. I certainly did admire Costner's ambition and I was appreciative

[00:05:14] of that. But his track record as a filmmaker is very spotty to me. I did not really feel like there was a lot of confidence for me going into this movie that it would be all

[00:05:26] that great. And to my utter shock, I ended up really liking this movie far more than the critical consensus at Cannes was certainly. And I really, really responded to it. And it is a movie not without its flaws, for sure. I definitely understand that because that

[00:05:44] this is a part one, because it is an incomplete story, it definitely feels very scattered in some places. Obviously, some of these character arcs are not fully fleshed out and the construction

[00:05:58] of this narrative does feel very messy at times in a way that kind of impedes the overall momentum in some spaces. But I think what I ended up really appreciating out of the film overall was its thematic commentary. I liked that Costner really did have a great

[00:06:16] reverence for the sort of old school filmmaking and the grandiose nature of presenting the Western frontier. I did appreciate that, but I also really liked what this movie had to say about life in the West and how violent it was and how much conflict there was in

[00:06:34] there too, and how that was battling with some more sincere emotions with these characters. And I did find myself becoming very endeared by the storytelling as messy as it was at times. I did still think that what Costner attempted to present to us was a really captivating

[00:06:54] portrait and it did take me by surprise. And while I recognize the faults that are within it, I think that this was a really fantastic introduction to the world that he is presenting

[00:07:06] us. It is an introduction, I totally admit that. And I understand that we have to kind of see how this plays out to get a full understanding. But as the introduction, I thought it was very

[00:07:18] engaging. And I know not everybody felt that way, but I think that this was a really surprising movie for me in terms of how much I ended up really liking it at the end of the day.

[00:07:27] All right, all right. Like you said, not the reaction I would have expected from you personally or from anybody given the way this movie has been received so far. But let's head on

[00:07:38] over to the person who I know was very excited to watch this movie. Giovanni, what did you think of Horizon? I didn't like it. I don't know. There are certain things in the week since I've seen

[00:07:52] it that I'm starting to grow on. There are individual moments that I truly love. And I think Josh really hit it on the nail that it really undercuts itself a lot of the time with its momentum, certain stories as they start building and really start the fibers

[00:08:10] start connecting, you start seeing Costner's vision, you're like, okay, and then it starts switching to an entirely different group. I think while there is a clear intention of these different storylines he's trying to establish a multitude of characters, some

[00:08:23] of which I don't really know needed to be introduced in this film or maybe just at all. It just blends all together. And you said there, I was very excited for this. I've been on the

[00:08:35] I just wanted to know. I've been pro Kevin Costner doing everything in terms of risking his career for the sake of creating art. I think that is the most badass thing ever. Love Costner, open range film he makes that is also Western. I think it's great. I really

[00:08:50] like dances with wolves. I've even have a grown fondness of water world. Okay, I think maybe my personal akin for Costner, not just as a director, but I think his overall screen presence as a Hollywood star and actor and just the great work he's given us his whole

[00:09:09] career kind of in retrospect, doles down how you look at his filmography because like, yeah, like, let's be real. He's not the greatest director. He's got plenty of misses. It's rare that he gets something that everyone can universally agree is just this is a hit. So

[00:09:25] going into this, I have my blinders on. I was like, you know what? I want to sit back. I just want to be enveloped by the scenery. I want to go back to the wild West. I see

[00:09:35] that Costner is so driven and inspired by how the West was made and other, you know, John Ford films. He's trying to harken back to, and generally I do see the vision. Like

[00:09:45] I get what Costner is trying to do for these films. I think it's incredibly ambitious, maybe the most expensive television pilot ever made. I mean, I joke that, but it does come off as

[00:09:57] a television pilot, although it is a film and he wants it to be a film and I respect that. And so I don't know, I was incredibly underwhelmed. I think there's individual moments

[00:10:07] of greatness that are just buried by just a lot of setup that of course will not be paid off in this film, but like I can't help it by the end credits, especially that final

[00:10:19] montage. I'm just like, fuck. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to be there opening night. It looks cool. Like screw you Costner. Like I'm still in, I'm still invested. It's just ranging whether he pulls it off and when we look back in retrospect, I appreciate this more or he

[00:10:34] is literally pulling off like his version of rebel moon, but for like, instead of sci-fi it's the West. Okay. So I went into this not with high expectations or low expectations. I just went into this with a certain level of expectation because quite frankly I thought,

[00:10:50] well, a three hour Western directed by Kevin Costner, given this is his vanity project, and that this is maybe for him, he feels last one as he rides off into the sunset for all

[00:11:05] he knows that, you know, I don't know what kind of films he's going to make beyond this in his career, but in many ways this feels like he wants it to be his last hoorah, his

[00:11:15] magnum opus. And that's not to say he's retiring. That's just to say we may not see him direct on this scale ever again. And I loved open range too. So there is that. I also don't

[00:11:28] even hate dances with wolves all that much. I think dances with wolves is actually pretty good in some parts. Um, there's other parts that are very questionable and there are other parts that have aged poorly, but on the whole I still enjoy the movie that he is known

[00:11:44] for in terms of his directing career. Okay. So with all that out of the way, this is a very, very, very difficult film for me to judge because it is not complete. This is

[00:12:03] chapter one as the title says, and unlike other movies that had been split into multiple parts, this is not a case of somebody with a suit and tie telling Kevin Costner, Hey,

[00:12:15] if we split this over two parts, we can make more money. Well, I wasn't intending to do such a thing. No, no, no. But like, let's do it this way. So that this way we make more

[00:12:26] money and I feel like that's the way these things tend to go most of the time. Whereas a lot of filmmakers would just prefer to release part one and part two combined as one original

[00:12:39] standalone movie. But that's not what has happened here. Nobody has told Kevin you need to split this up into multiple parts to maximize making back your profit. No, in fact, he's going to probably lose money on this when all is said and done. He made the decision

[00:12:57] to tell it this way. And what he's doing is he's taking our behavior for long form storytelling that we are doing through binging at home or just simply watching television week to

[00:13:09] week, whatever it is. And he's trying to find a way to translate that to the big screen, not by separating the films by a calendar year release schedule, but in this particular

[00:13:21] case with chapter one and chapter two, only a few weeks. And I just think that is so impressively cool and sort of badass and goddamn do I want to support it no matter what the outcome is.

[00:13:37] So there's a lot for me that I feel I'm being already kind of sold on before I've even watched the damn thing. So when I watch it, I had this expectation of this is going to be an

[00:13:53] incomplete film. This is going to be probably all character introductions and all set up and no one's going to undergo a character arc and there's not going to be a climax and nothing's going to feel resolved when all is said and done. And you know what? I turned

[00:14:10] out to be exactly correct. What I didn't expect was I didn't expect to get a five minute montage at the end of the movie previewing the next film with that. That was a little like out of left field in some ways.

[00:14:22] Well, in the movie it happens out of left field because they don't tell you that it's happening. It just straight up ends. And I thought I was having a stroke. And then you just hear the

[00:14:30] national anthem start playing and like someone is like, was not sewing. It's like making those posters to horizon posters. And then a montage starts and then I was like, wait, like why is this facial hair different? What I was like, is this a preview? I was like,

[00:14:44] oh, fuck, this is a preview. And then by the end of it still, I don't know about YouTube, but I was like, yeah, I'm down. I didn't have the greatest time, but I would watch that.

[00:14:54] It does look like, especially in part two, like it's going to pick up immensely, which is also not. But here's the thing I want to caution you with that expectation, Gio. It probably will

[00:15:04] pick up and storylines might start to cross over. But I think people are going to run into the same problem that they are stating here, which is there's not going to be any resolution. Part two, I guarantee you is not going to feel like a complete film either.

[00:15:21] And I really think that people are going to have the same complaints that they're having here, which is why I have a feeling and I could be wrong about this, but I have a

[00:15:29] feeling that when this is all said and done, if chapter three and chapter four do finish production and the whole thing does get seen. I think that once we have the totality and

[00:15:41] we see the vision of Costner across all four of these films as one film, I think then there might be some mea culpa's coming his way from some people. Coming up on 5 Minute News, I'm Anthony Davis. You might think it's partisan because maybe

[00:16:02] it's critical of one side or the other, but it's not. It's just the truth. And I think that's also something that's kind of unusual for Americans listening to the radio or to podcasts because the news landscape in the States has been so partisan for so many decades.

[00:16:19] So 5 Minute News is verified, truthful, independent, unbiased and essential world news daily. That's still a maybe. I mean, we've still got a bit to chat about. Like I said, big maybe. Yeah.

[00:16:36] But I mean, like that's the thing, right? Is that there is no middle and end here. It's all beginning. And there's a lot of people I'm reading who are like saying, yeah, this

[00:16:47] is a rotten tomato score. This is a poor review. This is a bad grade because it's not a film. I think it's just hard for people to understand maybe seeing something that hasn't been done before.

[00:17:04] Sure. But I think there's also a difference, you know. I know the whole trend of part ones can be grating to a degree, but at least when you watch something like Dune Part One, sure,

[00:17:14] I knew inherently what the entire source material was. But looking from the film's perspective, it ends with Paul realizing that his journey leads into the desert and then he has to keep going. And then you're like, OK, I like it feels like a definitive like this chapter,

[00:17:28] this part is done. You don't get any of that in this. You know, there's like characters that are introduced like over two hours into the movie. And you're just like, what? What is happening here? Including Costner himself.

[00:17:39] OK, I'm going to give you know what? I think it's one of the ballsiest thing Kevin Costner did that the first entire hour of this movie is mainly this one settlement and seeing it

[00:17:49] rise and start. And then that Apache attack. And then he comes in an hour because like I think he knows his target demographic is clearly like older people that are fans of

[00:17:58] Yellowstone or his work from like back in the day or coming to see his movie for him to like come in an hour into it. I respect that. That was actually one of the few choices he did. That was like, OK, cool.

[00:18:09] It also conveniently, he, in my opinion, has the best storyline, whatever his tie to and where that goes. I'm trying to avoid details, but the beginning I thought was interesting. And I thought, you know, the whole attack, like the tiniest details, like when they're

[00:18:24] sticking the gun, like Sienna Miller sticks the gun through the dirt to breathe. Like, I find everything and how it was staged and captured and shot terrifically is the most detailed aspect of the entire film.

[00:18:37] And then it feels like after that is just kind of like, all right, here's this person. Here's this very first person. And they're kind of just thinly veiled characters. And any relationships I set up behind anyone are also thinly veiled and also their

[00:18:52] motivations. Oh, why is this character abandoning this character? Why is this character going this way? Yeah, because I am just they're all chess pieces that I'm manipulating to get to the endgame, which is this town of Horizon. I mean, I disagree with that just a little bit.

[00:19:06] And only because I think for me, when the movie starts, I do agree with you that the first hour, I think is actually probably the best of it. And it's because we do get this very singular focus on this town.

[00:19:19] But what I admired about it and what I kind of realized is the moment that I thought, man, I might actually really kind of love this movie, is that it really shows you that Horizon as a town really is this concept of the West at this point.

[00:19:34] It is this place that is being heralded. They send a signal out to everybody to say, come here, expand your lot in life, get more and into this territory, even though this territory is very hostile.

[00:19:51] They start building the town on the other side of the creek where three graves are. And I just found that to be such a profound kind of commentary to present in this world is that, yes, there is this idealism and this this enthusiasm and optimism about

[00:20:08] life during this time. But it is in constant battle with the people who are already there and with people who are trying to also maintain their way of life. And while the scope of this narrative does get to a point where it can maybe be a little

[00:20:25] difficult to track all the things that are happening, I think that central message, that central theme is what carries you through. And for me, it was enough for me to like really recognize kind of the underlying power of what the story was trying to communicate.

[00:20:42] And I found that all of the characters played into that in an effective way for me. So the one thing that unified all the characters for me was that they were all searching for something. Yeah.

[00:20:53] Whether it is this town of Horizon or if it's just for purpose, for living, whatever it is, they were all searching for something. And that was the thing that kind of unified all of these stories for me across, you know,

[00:21:08] different geographical locations, across whether or not if I found myself even particularly interested in their story or not. That was the thing that for me was the through line and helped me to.

[00:21:23] I guess you could say help me to orient and like get on the film's wavelength, because I agree, Josh, the way that that town is presented, it might as well not even be a real town. It might as well be a dream of a town.

[00:21:37] Like you said, it's an idyllic presentation of this town for people when they see that flyer. And it's a promise of a better life, a promise of whatever success it might bring to them, their families.

[00:21:53] And so that was something that I found to be very, very interesting because then also too, you do have the perspective of the Apache tribe who is, you know, like their land is being taken by these people who are seeking these dreams of a better future for

[00:22:10] themselves. And they're fighting to preserve it for them, preserve their homes for themselves. And it's like these two just come into clash with one another. And, you know, I think for me that was enough. I think that was just enough.

[00:22:25] And then you throw in these recognizable actors who, OK, I've heard some criticisms that not much really happens. This movie is dull and tedious. And I can understand that because once again, I get that this is all character introductions

[00:22:44] and set up, you know, going back to Costner's introduction in a regular length movie that isn't 12 hours long as this might end up being if each one is three hours long. Costner would typically show up 20 minutes into a regular length movie.

[00:23:05] He shows up an hour into this because that's four times the length. And I do believe that this movie at maybe nearly 12 hours long is probably four hours longer than what this one standalone movie would usually be.

[00:23:22] Right. And I just keep coming back to sometimes like these international directors who overseas get financing from their governments and they're able to make like five and a half hour long films or, you know, like Satan Tango or something like it's like seven

[00:23:41] hours long or whatever it is. And I just kept thinking to myself, you know. Is the reason why, like you mentioned, Dune Part One, Giovanni earlier, and I love Dune Part One, truly I do.

[00:23:55] But do you think if Denis Villeneuve was given the option to say, hey, man, listen, you can release part one and part two is two separate movies or you can just release a five hour long movie and we'll give you the money for it.

[00:24:09] And you could just tell the story over the course of five hours. What do you think he would do? I mean, I don't know. It's to a great hypothetical. I don't I don't know personally what Danny would do.

[00:24:21] I understand that. But that's what I think Kevin is like, because he is the one that's calling the shots here. He decided, well, I'm not going to release a 12 hour movie. That's kind of ridiculous.

[00:24:29] But if I break it up into four parts, that's where I think we're at. Sure. I just think, you know, there are certain aspects where. On terms of like conceptually and you guys mentioned like the dream, this whole concept

[00:24:44] of like Manifest Destiny and the romanticism of the American West, I think is something that Costner has thought of throughout his entire career and sort of mythologicalized, especially in part of himself and his presence in the film.

[00:25:00] Like, again, I mentioned earlier, the movie ends on the national anthem playing. And I think Costner loves the idea of what. American West and just America itself as a country could be compared to what it

[00:25:13] actually is, and I think that to a degree is explored, you know, we mentioned they have the whole storyline with the Apaches and you see the perspective of like inherently we're just taking their land, like we're manifesting this for us.

[00:25:24] Oh, it's a new beginning where we're watching these characters suffer through death and illness and traversing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of like miles across vast lands just to to get to this idea of promise and a new start and and hope even at the expense of others.

[00:25:41] And sure, as like a concept, I think it works. I think it's fascinating that it's been so embaked into Conster's psyche. Like this is something he's talked about that he's wanted to make for a very long

[00:25:51] time. But also, I don't know if he's as great as a filmmaker in terms of the technical level to pull it off. Like I feel like if something was like if this was like James Cameron being like, you

[00:26:04] know what I want to do, like a Western, I feel like I would feel more confident him being able to swing the landing for not just the entire thing, but like each individual installment compared to Kevin Costner.

[00:26:13] But I don't think there's anything wrong on a technical level with what Costner has done here. It sounds to me like really what you're saying that you have a fundamental problem with is the thing that everyone else seems to say they have a problem with

[00:26:24] here, which is that. This is OK, just like here, picture this for me, Gio, you get this 12 hour long film presented to you. And it gets literally divided into four pieces, but then nobody reworks the scripts

[00:26:43] of these individual four pieces to say, OK, make sure each one of these four has a beginning, middle and end. They just simply cut it into four pieces and they say this is movie one. This is movie two, this movie three, this movie four.

[00:26:55] This is that is inherently what it's going to come off as, because I do think I'm OK. Maybe technically it's not the wrong word, because I think the script is the big. I mean, the movie looks gorgeous. Come on. It looks good. I love the sequence.

[00:27:07] The scenery shots look fantastic. There are certain. OK, there is this one shot in a shootout, which is like the best scene in the fucking movie. It's so cool that Costner has where it's just these two guys and they're slowly

[00:27:18] grinding each other's gears, walking up to this house. And at least it's a shootout that you see in the trailer. There's a shot of him reflecting in the water and like the trough looks cool.

[00:27:28] It's great. I also am nitpicky and I'm like, I wish this was shot on film. And sometimes it does look a bit too digitalized. But then there's other times where he's riding his horse and he's like on a snowy

[00:27:38] mountain top. And I'm like, fuck, like I could just look at this for a while. But again, inherently the worst aspect of it that I think bogs everything down is the script. And like you mentioned, it does feel like it was just like stuck his

[00:27:50] finger here, chopped apart. OK, let's put that to the left. And there wasn't much reworking to make it feel whole as an individual thing. It's just like, oh, well, we'll leave it there and then the next one's going to

[00:28:00] pick it up. And that's why a lot of the characters feel so thin. But I'm curious as to like what characters you guys really attracted to the most that aren't Costner, because for the most part, I'm just like, yeah, they're there.

[00:28:12] Like the Luke Wilson stuff, not not really a fan of. Oh, I thought Luke Wilson was great. Oh, I thought he was fine. Is the one I will say I did not really care for.

[00:28:21] And it's only because that man is so contemporary that he just never fit into that setting for me. Like and his brother has a very similar problem. You know, it's like those are people that just I cannot buy them in a Western

[00:28:36] setting. And I don't think like his performance is inherently bad. I just don't think he fits within the overall aesthetic of that film. But to me, honestly, that was like a very rare exception. I liked most of the people in this cast.

[00:28:49] I thought they did a great job. He was the only one that felt out of place to me. Yeah. I mean, like I like his character in this. I get the argument that he's miscast and feels contemporary. Like I definitely feel that when I watch him in this.

[00:29:04] I think I was just really drawn to the character as somebody who's babysitting this Oregon trail, if you will. Although she got on my fucking nerves. They were so annoying. Like I was like, OK, let's be real. There's no way these two.

[00:29:18] And I'm telling you guys right now, if the previews are any indication, I guarantee you they are deliberately introducing those two characters that way. So this way they undergo character arcs and you actually end up liking them by the end.

[00:29:31] Yeah, I guarantee you the British lady who was beefy or like called that daughter a son, you know, and they weren't helping them help out. They're going to be friends or something like it's something like that's going to happen, Matt.

[00:29:43] You're hitting it right on the nail where they're going to be friends or they're going to fully adapt and quote unquote Americanize and fully be rough and tough for this Western setting. Looks like it's Ella Hunt. Yeah, I think it's the actress who plays her.

[00:29:56] And Thomas Paine and Thomas Paine was in it, too. I knew him from walking. The whole film is just actors who I've seen in like television a bunch. I'm like, oh, I know this person like Danny Houston is like a perfect casting

[00:30:08] for anyone like in a Western or Michael Rooker, although he's like Irish or Scottish or something. Yeah, and I don't know if he pulls it off well, but like the beard is cool and he's in the you know, I love them still. I was like, yeah.

[00:30:20] And like Sam Worthington, it's like I think this is a role that fits Sam Worthington well. It reminds me like he's great when he's into the supporting role register. He's amazing under the banner heaven. And in this like I'm like, OK, like I buy Sam Worthington

[00:30:33] as this kind of stoic union general who's trying to. He's a first lieutenant. Yeah, first is going to try to keep everything in order. And then I don't know if I buy the romance as much. That felt a bit rushed.

[00:30:47] Well, that was just like a case of I'm hot, you're hot. I'm looking for comfort and I'm here to comfort you. OK, I'm actually I want to stand up for the romance, actually, because I and this was something else I was very surprised by,

[00:31:01] because normally Sienna Miller also not really a performer that I have admired a great deal. I don't think she's bad. She's just never really impressed me. I thought she was very captivating here. And yes, their romance that they introduce is like rather simplistic.

[00:31:17] But I thought it was very endearing, like that little moment that they have where she sees him by, you know, out in the fields. And she's like, you know, doing that thing where she's getting her hair fixed and, you know, pitching her cheeks.

[00:31:29] Like I thought that was a very like sweet thing. And I could definitely see how they want to develop it further. But for this little glimpse that we got, I think it's certainly my expectation of what that could have been.

[00:31:41] It surprisingly worked for me, and I thought it was actually quite endearing. I was definitely underwhelmed a little bit by, you know, Sam Worthington in terms of like the material he was given. But I agree, Sienna Miller, whether it's because we are just so

[00:31:58] drawn to her character after what her and her family undergo in the first act of this movie, or if it's just the way that Costner shoots her. I'm maybe it's a combination of both. But I agree there was something about her here that was wholly captivating to me.

[00:32:15] And Worthington is just, you know, you know, Worthington is Worthington. You're not really going to go wrong there in terms of the charisma he can probably bring to something like this. But at the same time, I was like kind of lacking in terms of

[00:32:28] so what's your character's point in all this again exactly? And he's stoic. That's what he is. He's a stoic survivor just trying to keep order. And pretty soon, I bet you he's going to be shipped off to like serve

[00:32:42] or some like mission he's going to have to do. And then it's going to be striking tragedy for that romance. Just like it feels like it's all set up there, but also not at all. Like it's mainly just by the trailer at the end.

[00:32:53] You're like this has to happen, right? Like this isn't just going to play out like they're going to be happy and in love because from what we've seen the beginning of this movie, it's like, oh, the West. Not great. It sucks.

[00:33:03] It's rough and it's violent, and it is not like what we romanticize it to be. And I feel like that can't just immediately disappear. Like that's going to continue on throughout the rest of the movies. Well, something else that I think that Worthington's character

[00:33:18] represents in this story is also kind of how feckless the might of the American military can be at times as well, because often in these movies we see the cavalry come in. They're supposed to be the saviors of of, you know, the common folk

[00:33:34] and are rousing the troops to charge forward. But they don't have any solutions here. And all they can tell these people is that, yeah, you picked a bad spot and there's going to be fighting all the time. And there's nothing we can really do about that.

[00:33:49] And when the people say, all right, well, then we're just going to create our own system and we're also just going to go out and hunt these natives ourselves. And are you going to stop us? No. OK. Well, see you later.

[00:34:01] And I found that to be also a really interesting commentary, too, that here is this character who in any other circumstance would be presented as one of our unfiltered heroes. And he really has kind of no power here. And I thought that that was a very intriguing viewpoint

[00:34:20] to get in this kind of a story that normally would be the exact opposite. You also mentioned those people, the town that survived that end up going to hunt the Apaches, which also leads to like

[00:34:32] one of the better scenes in the movie at the gun store, which I enjoyed. I wish I was really drawn to those characters more is the issue I had with. They're barely in it. It's a it's a well-crafted scene and I'd like the tension.

[00:34:44] But at the same time, I that in the final shootout at the end, I was like, wait, who are these guys again and why should I care about them? That was actually for me the weakest storyline throughout the whole film.

[00:34:57] I thought the native storyline for me was the most underdeveloped. Like, like, can you tell me who Jeff Fahey is in this movie and what he's what he's doing? They're just getting revenge for they apparently I think it was in it.

[00:35:09] They're tracking a specific native they remembered who was initially the child. Yeah, but it's really just a bland excuse for them just to revenge and use their might to just kill indigenous people. Yeah. Like that's the focus of what those characters are meant to do

[00:35:26] is that initially, yeah, there is this intention of trying to find the specific people that attacked their their town and they were going to go after them. But eventually they just succumbed to the idea. Well, any Native American person will do doesn't really matter.

[00:35:41] We just like our bloodthirsty and we can trade this for money. And I will admit that because this movie does have so many characters that, yes, some of them are introduced and you don't have a firm grasp on every single one of them

[00:35:55] in terms of their connectivity to the larger narrative. But this was another situation where while I still had that problem, I think it was balanced out for the most part, not completely, but for the most part for me, in terms of that mentality of being so consumed

[00:36:11] by violence and vengeance that you kind of don't care who is in your line of sight when you go after it. And I thought that that was an intriguing enough bedrock to those characters that I could go with it, even though I totally recognize the deficiencies

[00:36:27] in terms of like building up those characters to a satisfying degree. My MVPs of this movie, because I can't name one, I got to name them together, are the Sykes brothers, John Beavers and Jamie Campbell Bauer. Their storyline is that it's because inherently it's connected to Costner's storyline.

[00:36:47] And I think those are probably out of everything, the two most visibly interconnected out of like the six that Kevin Costner introduces in this film. But once like all the pieces start coming together and Costner

[00:36:59] and Abby Lee's character, Mary Gold, are like on the run after that shoot out like Jamie Campbell Bauer just swarming and just like so pestering, annoying. Like every time he spoke, I felt like his brother in the movie. I was like, I just want to slap you, dude.

[00:37:13] Like, let me do my thing. But I'm also just so, so impressed by his physicality, his vocal work. Like I look at him in this movie and I'm like. That's the same guy from Sweeney Todd, no frickin way, you know?

[00:37:28] And then you tell me he's also Vecna in Stranger Things, and it's like, you know, Jamie Campbell Bauer is a great actor for how well he can inhabit his characters. And I just found him to be so mesmerizing.

[00:37:42] Like he literally had me in the palm of his hand every time he was on screen. Same thing with his older brother, John Beavers, who I haven't seen this actor like in anything prior to this. I know he's done some other television work, but oh my God,

[00:37:56] like what incredible screen presence that he had. So like that scene that they have with Jenna Malone and Michael Angarano where they're they're in this tight like cabin and they're like the like the blocking is such that Jamie Campbell Bauer is like going to lose his shit

[00:38:15] if like Michael Angarano like keeps pushing him. And he's just trying to be like a nice guy and get the meeting moving along and such. And then his older brother is just like coming down on him constantly.

[00:38:29] And you get this dynamic between the two of them that I just found to be so so enriching that I wanted so much more from the two of them. And so. Unfortunately, you know, I'm not going to get more beyond this movie, which is kind of

[00:38:45] which kind of sucks. But I mean, what I got here, I was like, damn, like these guys, these guys are on a whole other level compared to everyone else. Just in terms of how much they are pulling me in right now.

[00:38:57] But that's also ties into like they so they set up that storyline with was Jenna Malone's character who shot. Was it their dad? Like the practically the leader of this whole family that they're criminals. And we don't really get the details why. But like there is a child.

[00:39:17] And you don't really get his kid that she escaped with, like his bastard child, and that's the reason why she shot him to escape that. And they're hunting her down to get the kid back. And then, yeah, they get into the storyline.

[00:39:31] And I'm like, OK, this is like that's one of the moments like I really besides the opening act where I felt like the foot was being stepped on the gas. And then once, you know, concert's character, America will start leaving.

[00:39:43] I was like, oh, this is going to be like a real focus for the movie. And then that's when they start introducing the Luke Wilson storyline. And I just felt like it was just one of the few times that in this movie

[00:39:53] concert just under sweeps himself whenever he starts really getting things going just to continue, like expanding the scope when I just felt like he should have just narrowed in a bit. I'm not saying like not introduce some of these characters, but as somebody who watched Game of Thrones

[00:40:09] religiously multiple times over the years, there was something very, very similar. I felt watching a horizon where you spend time with one storyline and one group of characters that you are more invested in than maybe someone else.

[00:40:22] And then every now and then you got to hop over to this other group and check in on them and see what they're up to. And you're like, that's literally what happened. And you're like, oh, man, I want to get back to the other ones.

[00:40:32] But in the long run, and this is where the Game of Thrones comparison ends for some people. But hear me out. These storylines converge and these small moments that you think are, you know, not worth it do have payoff later. They just don't come in this movie.

[00:40:50] And that's the thing where it's like once again, I have such a hard time reviewing this throughout this entire conversation. I almost don't even want to give this movie a grade if I'm being completely honest with you, because for all I know,

[00:41:03] my grade could retroactively change based on the way chapter two, three and four play out later. So it's very, very odd to me. And I hate that some people are just like like completely writing this off right away because, you know,

[00:41:16] as I mentioned earlier, for example, like Ella Hunts character in this movie, right? She is so annoying and so pretentious and someone that clearly the audience is not supposed to like up front at first. But I guarantee you, I have a very, very strong feeling

[00:41:32] that by the time that we get to, you know, maybe two, three, who knows? That character is going to take a turn and she's going to probably become a favorite for some people, I imagine.

[00:41:43] And we just got to let this play out before we just keep coming to these, you know, rash conclusions about how much of a failure this is. I don't know why we're like rooting for Costner to fail with this. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[00:41:58] No, I agree. And I think it's also like a thing where Civil War is a film I didn't entirely vibe with, but seeing how that film was successful, I didn't entirely register with this, even though this is something that's incredibly a dad coded and be like my wavelength.

[00:42:12] And like I would I would have loved this movie to just and, you know, it's still in theaters like make Uber money. Like I wish we had more like films like this or even just attempts from a filmmaker. But I agree with like how you're dissecting the film.

[00:42:25] And, you know, it's like one part. I think also just the real life story of Costner attempting to get this made and that whole production behind it, I think also blends in and morphs with how I actually look at the film itself,

[00:42:39] especially because like it's not just cost her buying the camera. He's in front of it, too. And when he gets up for the camera, like he makes sure like the first shot you see of Costner riding up on the horse.

[00:42:47] It's like a classic movie star shot, like it's a John Wayne or some shit and just comes in on his face. Let's be honest with each other for a brief second here, because this is where there is some criticism that I think is maybe somewhat warranted.

[00:43:00] I kind of got the sense while watching this, that Costner is playing a role that quite frankly, he is 20 to 25 years too old to be playing. And I just, you know, Abby Lee and him in this movie, I was like,

[00:43:16] I think I think that's the only reason why it feels that way, though, if that dynamic wasn't here, I still think he would be perfectly fine in this role. It's just the fact that they do have this romance. And of course, the one sex scene in the movie.

[00:43:31] That is one of the wildest scenes I've seen all year where she's like, I'm not going to defend that. Like I she was literally like, don't worry, I'll do all the work. I was just sitting there like, what am I watching? And it's so awkwardly shot, too.

[00:43:44] And it just comes out of nowhere. And yeah, she just leaves right after that. And it's like no explanation to the motive. I was just like, OK, like, what are we doing? And then you just see a brief for the next one.

[00:43:53] And then it's like, oh, what if Coster's hair is blonder and his goatee sharper? And I'm like, sure. OK, like fine. Yeah, that that relationship, I did not really buy all that much. I think that she's decent in the role.

[00:44:08] I think that she is another one that has a lot of, you know, very compelling screen presence. But the just the romantic connection between them just did not really seem like a natural fit.

[00:44:20] And I think if it had been kept platonic, I would have been fine with it because it would have been more of this like kind of fatherly figure and like would have been perfect like that. I would have been totally fine with that.

[00:44:30] But then trying to go with the romance angle, that to me felt like definitely a holdover of those old school Western epics that did not really work for me. Do you think that Costner, especially at his age now, should have swapped with Worthington and Worthington played that role?

[00:44:50] And he plays like, you know, the Union soldier falling in love with a woman who has lost her husband and she's trying to find herself in the West. Like I feel like that falls like more traditionally into like something Costner could easily body.

[00:45:05] Like I'm totally fine with him being the gunslinger. Like obviously, like Kevin Costner writing and directing this is also going to be like, yeah, I'm going to be the guy who gets the cool fuck, yeah, like rifle blasting sequences, you know, but maybe like they swapped.

[00:45:18] It wouldn't have felt as weird. I think like, like I'm not one to be like age gap discourse, but like I get what you guys mean. It does feel like it's more of a chemistry thing, honestly. Yeah, it's a bit. Yeah. It's more about that.

[00:45:29] I mean, the fact that their relationship is shallow and not see, here's the thing. I actually read the relationship as like being non-existent. That's what I thought when it started and that she was constantly using him and that there actually wasn't a real connection there.

[00:45:47] I thought more so when they met, it was clearly because what she's doing is she's an escort and she's trying to charm him with his looks. And it's funny, like the first time he makes a comment when he's trying to like send a letter and he's like, Jesus,

[00:45:59] like he can't focus because she's so attractive. But I did like how he just kept constantly rejecting her advances and how she exactly shocked by it. And I think that could have been a fun dynamic or like, you know, which I said, like that surrogate father, like figure

[00:46:12] or they have a very like strong friendship and he like respects her like a bunch like that. But I mean, you know, it also reminds me of Yellowstone where like in like the last two seasons, Costner hooks up like an incredibly younger, like environmentalist.

[00:46:24] And he's like the very conservative, like farmer. And it's just like, sure, the cost of things. Yeah, it's a movie. It's just a movie. All right. I mean, I get it. I don't really respect that choice very much, but OK, like I

[00:46:39] it's just a constant thing at this point. Yeah. But I think also just on the subject of whether or not something like Worthington would be good in the role, I I don't think he is intimidating enough in that.

[00:46:51] And like I think about that moment that is between Costner and and Bauer. And I think one of the reasons why it works so well is because of Costner stoicism and his quietness while he lets his other guy just ramble on and on and on.

[00:47:07] And yet you understand the very quiet power that Costner can embody on screen. That's why he is such a formidable like movie star presence in not only this film, but his entire career. So I do think that he is good in that role.

[00:47:22] I think there are some miscalculations in terms of where the where like the arc of that character goes in some places. But I think overall he's a really good fit for it. It's just sometimes the character does stuff that I don't think makes him the strongest.

[00:47:37] But I think that is not I don't think any of that overcomes the the strengths that he does bring to the role. What do you guys think of Jenna Malone? I always love Jenna Malone. Yeah, she's fine.

[00:47:50] I mean, her first scene in this movie is literally blasting a guy two times with a shotgun in the chest. Yeah. And then but like she's also doesn't make a presence in the film besides just arguing with Marigold, you know, she's like, you're supposed to watch kid.

[00:48:03] And then they have a supposedly funny scene where she's just chasing her around. And they get. I know I was I thought that was like very oddly like blocked. Like, yeah, I was wondering if it was supposed to be for comedy. It certainly felt like it to me.

[00:48:16] It was absolutely supposed to be for comedy. It just wasn't funny. It just went on a little bit too long. But I think it was meant for laughs. I think she's really starts getting to chew the scenery. You know, when she goes with Michael Argarano's character, her husband,

[00:48:29] and she starts realizing before he does that it's a trap. It's not like some deal to sell his property. And they know she is and she's piecing everything together. And that scene is really good.

[00:48:42] But then again, like after that, I'm pretty you don't see her the rest of my. Am I wrong? You don't see her the rest of the movie like that was it? I don't think so. I don't I don't. Yeah, she just vanished like the gazey.

[00:48:52] It's fairy dust. She's gone, you know? And it's just like, wow, it was just starting to get like it was one of those moments where it's starting to pick up. And I'm starting to get really invested in this character

[00:49:01] just for me to go to a different character's perspective, who for the most part, I probably don't like or I think is like as interesting as like a paper towel, you know? Well, I got good news for you, Gio.

[00:49:11] You can get reinvested all over again this August with Chapter two. Yeah, theaters. I will be there opening night. Like again, all my criticism, all my points, like I would still rather go out and support something like this.

[00:49:22] And as ambitious it is, that's something that is incredibly cheap or trying to cash in on something familiar. Like I respect everything Costner's doing. I really hope it lands the plane. I hope I like the next one more. I was just again, I think also I put unrealistic

[00:49:36] expectations on this film. Like you guys all know, I constantly throughout. It's like, oh, we're so back energy. You think? Yeah, we saw the group chat like at a certain point, Gio. You got to reel it in a little bit. No, just for your own mental state, honestly.

[00:49:52] That's what makes the Warsaw over periods like memorable because then when you get to a Warsaw back, you're like, this is what it feels like that high is just high. OK, and maybe, you know what? Costner's got three more tries, so we could easily get back. Fingers crossed.

[00:50:06] Yeah, one of those got to be great. But once again, no, I think you guys are all looking at this the wrong way. You cannot judge part one, part two, part three, part four. You have to judge it all when it's over as one.

[00:50:21] Well, I agree to that to a certain degree. But I think you still need to be able to enjoy whatever it is put in front of you. I mean, this is the same argument that I heard from some people that didn't like doing part one.

[00:50:33] And they were saying, well, you got to wait till it's over. Well, well, I don't know. It could be good. It could be bad. I have no idea if it's going to stick the landing. I have to judge what I see in front of me.

[00:50:44] And I am very much sympathetic to those that feel like this is like just too incomplete. You can't grab onto anything and it doesn't work. Like I completely understand why people would feel that way. But for me, even though I recognize those criticisms,

[00:51:01] I just think that the the filmmaking, the the storytelling itself on that macro thematic level for me is just really, really impressive. And that was enough to draw me in to these characters that, yes, they may not go on complete arcs, but I found them intriguing enough

[00:51:19] within this overall narrative framework that I was compelled throughout all of it. And even though there's pockets of this movie that I will admit, yeah, are a little slow. I'll be honest that from my perspective, I did not really feel three hours with this.

[00:51:34] It for the most part moved rather well and getting to the end. It's like, oh, I guess we are at the three hour mark right now. And despite there being some pockets where it does slow down a bit,

[00:51:45] I think overall the pacing actually worked really well for me. I felt the same way, too, Josh, where I got to the end and I was like, wow, three hours already. OK. But I will admit there were certain sections where I did start to feel it.

[00:51:59] And it was odd, though, that when it was over, I think the reason why I had that feeling, even though I felt the length at other points was because Costner had done a successful job of getting me invested in seeing where these characters were going to go.

[00:52:17] And when that montage started up, I was like, oh man, it's over. I want to see more now. And I think that that's where the whole idea of man, those three hours just flew by. I'm I'm ready for another three at this point.

[00:52:30] Maybe that's where it's coming from. I'm not entirely sure, but that's my guess because I've seen it twice now. And on the second viewing, even though I knew what was going to happen, I still felt those moments where it started to slog a little bit.

[00:52:47] Now, I will say in terms of the filmmaking and some stuff that we can praise and highlight here, the opening attack on the town. Oh, so good is very, very well constructed. I thought I loved the sound work. I loved the score.

[00:53:07] I thought the nighttime cinematography with the fire was beautiful to look at. And everything that's happening inside that house as those characters are trying to like prop the door up and gunfire and, you know, arrows and like it's like debris is flying everywhere. There's embers.

[00:53:24] It just was like so, so, so, so, so. So intense. And you're just seeing people getting massacred outside of there, like left and right. So you're wondering, OK, if they get in, they're going to just kill everybody in this in this house.

[00:53:40] And that just adds a whole other layer then of intrigue to whether or not, you know, who's going to survive and how. So I loved everything about that opening attack. I had a moment when that family is in that little tent and then they just all explode.

[00:53:58] I was like, my God, I that was very shocking. I was not expecting that. I'm not going to lie. This movie got far more graphic than I was really anticipating. I was maybe it also helps to add the more visceral nature of just like, yeah,

[00:54:12] Costner is really trying to emphasize again. This was not as great, like as much as I romanticize, like the sprawling nature of the West itself, like what actually played it out through it was not pretty. And you see that instantly in this movie.

[00:54:26] And that's something too that I like. Josh, you kind of touched upon this earlier, too, is like the clash here between romanticizing the West and then also showing the West for what it actually was. He's trying to have his cake

[00:54:38] and eat it, too, by kind of highlighting both. There are the sweeping classical shots. There's the very traditional storytelling. There is the uplifting some. Well, I say sometimes uplifting like rousing score by John Debbany. But then there are times where the score does become quite dour and morose.

[00:55:00] And there then there are then these moments where you do realize, OK, this vision that you have of this time, this place is not what it actually was. And in many ways, that ties back into this idea of what is horizon

[00:55:19] for these people who are seeking it, for those people who are trying to protect it, for those people who are trying to maintain it. And so I like that there is like this thematic core to this movie that,

[00:55:35] you know, ties into our view of the Western genre as a whole. It is also hard not to romanticize it when that score is just blaring and you're just looking at some of the gorgeous scenery because that score, again, one of the best I've heard this year.

[00:55:48] Oh, by far my favorite element of the movie overall. Yeah, it's fantastic. God, that music is so great. I mean, John Debbany, I think, is such an underrated composer in general. I don't think he gets nearly as much praise as he probably should.

[00:56:04] He's had a couple of great scores over the years. And this is one where, you know, it's so unfortunate because this is a score like I really want to champion and I want to go to bat for.

[00:56:13] But it's in a movie that is so hard to get people to watch it. And then once they watch it, it's hard for them to. It's like, oh, but the score is great. And they're like, yeah, but I don't care. I don't like God damn it.

[00:56:27] Oh, it's a shame. And then yet it's another thing where it's like, well, are they going to judge it against whatever he does in chapter two? And then it's going to become confusing at that point. But just based on this entry alone, yeah, I think that music does,

[00:56:42] you know, for some might say a lot of heavy lifting in some places. But I just find that that those rousing notes so effective. We mentioned, yes, the the the next time on preview at the end of the movie,

[00:56:54] I think works so well because that music is just blaring and it gets you pumped up and excited. And yeah, I think the music to this film is just absolutely astounding. And I don't think it's the national anthem, Gio. You said this earlier.

[00:57:08] It's amazing grace that that's. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were talking more so like just the like national anthem of the movie, just sort of, you know, rousing American sentiment. I thought that's what you meant. No, I just I just remembered it was a song like that,

[00:57:22] like playing at the end credits. And I remember when I first saw it, I was like, OK, I know what you're trying to say here, Cosman. But come on, this is this is. Let me just play this by Gio of the movies that we saw at Cannes.

[00:57:35] It was only the second worst use of a song that played at the end of a film. There was one that was even more glaringly obvious and more eye rolling than that one. Yeah. Now Josh knows what I'm talking about. That yeah, that was that was roughly.

[00:57:55] Yeah, because when I when I heard Amazing Grace play, I was like, of course you would. Of course. Yeah. You know, you say we say that it's like, oh, it's so obvious. And so but like also knowing what how Kevin Costner's mind works,

[00:58:08] like what else was he going to end the movie? It's also a very beautiful rendition of it, I have to say. Yeah, it works for me. It did. Sure. Yeah. Maybe not for Gio. Yeah. You know, again, it's like hearing Amazing Grace

[00:58:23] and then fucking Giovanni Ribsey just appears on my screen and like random shots of like Thomas Hayden Church. And you're like, oh, OK, like this, you're going to join this. Chapter two, baby. Yeah. Yeah. But I also loved that in that montage.

[00:58:38] Yes, it's like so rousing and we get these images of what we're going to see upcoming. And but I also love that it's still intercut with them printing off more flyers that just advertise the town of Horizon, because I've I also just found that to be

[00:58:54] not on, you know, it's not a very big symbolism that they're going for, but I think on just a very subtle way to be like, here's more of these actions that are happening, more conflict, more violence, you know, that all seems exciting to us on the page.

[00:59:10] But there's still this constant reminder of it's in. It's all for Horizon. It's all for people, you know, trying to achieve this singular goal. And I think kind of intermingling those sequences with the constant reminder of just Horizon as a concept being constantly pushed onto the American people.

[00:59:30] I found that to be another like really interesting way to wrap things up at the end, that even though it essentially is just giving you a preview for the next movie, there's still like some symptomatic stuff happening at the same time that I think is rather appreciated.

[00:59:43] Capitalism at its finest at work there. Yeah. It was also like Giovanni Ribzi, like because they hand him the flag flyer and it ends. Is he like, well, we don't know what he's going to be. Is he just someone? No, no, we do.

[00:59:55] Is he the guy who started it all? He's Mr. Pickering. He's the one that they allude to constantly as the owner of that land settlement. OK, OK. That's what I was curious. I was like, is he is he the guy who's in charge of everything?

[01:00:08] Or is he just part of like some newspaper like form to where they're printing the press and they're handing it out? I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what Kevin Costner is setting up for the next film, but OK.

[01:00:19] I'm glad I got clarification on that. OK, that makes sense. I think he's the one that's literally driving people to that area. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so more to come in chapter two. Let's get over the final thoughts.

[01:00:32] Josh, anything that we didn't mention you want to bring up or something you want to reiterate? You've watched them in unforgettable adventures, love affairs and tragedies. Now it's time to hear their own remarkable stories from the makers of Death of a Rockstar and Death of a Sportstar.

[01:00:54] This is Death of a Filmstar. Starring Heath Ledger, Marilyn Monroe, Chadwick Boseman, Robin Williams, Carrie Fisher and Bruce Lee. Search for Death of a Filmstar in your podcast app. You've seen them tell stories. Now it's time to tell theirs. Um, I think.

[01:01:29] I just want to once again, just say how great I think Jamie Campbell Bauer is in this film. I do agree that it's sort of a shame that we don't get more of him. But I did think that he was just such a great presence,

[01:01:40] even though what he does to Michael Angarano is very unforgivable. You can't harm my husband like that and think that I will easily forgive you. But but I thought he was so effective as just like this slimy villain, but worked so well.

[01:01:55] And yeah, that dynamic he has with his brother is so fascinating, too. Even though I didn't recognize the actor who played his brother either. I actually thought it was one of the guys from Supernatural. I thought it was him. It's not.

[01:02:09] But I watched the whole movie convinced that that's what it was. And it isn't. But I thought that he was really good, too. But but yeah, Jamie Campbell Bauer is also another actor that normally I'm not the biggest fan of at times.

[01:02:22] I thought he did really well on Stranger Things, but he's also like buried in makeup and his voice is altered a little bit. I know some of that is him, but there's some post-war going on, too.

[01:02:31] So I haven't really been able to like judge him properly as an actor, but I did really find him to be. Oh, he was so riveting. I love a just twisty, slimy villain in a Western. I think that they could be so effectively deployed. And he was great.

[01:02:49] And I thought that everybody in this movie was great. I think this cast is is fantastic overall. I mean, with a couple of exceptions for sure. But I loved everybody's performance in this film. And I thought they did a fantastic job.

[01:03:00] And you know, it's like with Chapter two, you know, we have G Money Risby. We mentioned Thomas Hayden Church. You know, we might get more Dale Dickey for all we know. Oh, Dale Dickey. That was also yeah.

[01:03:12] I'm like, she popped up and I was like, Dale Dickey isn't this like what? I literally did like the New York thing. You know, the meme of Dale Dickey. I mean, Will Patton shows up very briefly. You know, they're going to feature him more. Oh, obviously. Yeah.

[01:03:27] Isabel Furman, another one like there's so much potential here. I mean, as Giovanni said, we'll be seated. Yeah, the cast is really good. Also, just one other thing I would mention. Another scene that I really liked is when the soldiers are leaving the camp

[01:03:46] and they're saying goodbye to Sienna Miller and her daughter. I like that she cut out the little pieces on the quilt and started giving them to everybody. And I remember Michael Rooker had like a line where he said, you know,

[01:03:58] you know, some we know that some of these guys are going to die essentially. And if this is like the last little bit that they can hold on to, this piece of fabric that gives them a little bit of comfort

[01:04:08] at the end of the days and that will be worth it to them. And I thought that was like very, very sad, but poignant at the same time. And as they're all going off and, you know, we don't know

[01:04:18] what the fate of those characters are going to be necessarily. But just even that mention of like, here's a little bit of solace that we can give these guys, even though we know death is certain

[01:04:29] for a percentage of them, I find that to be, I'll be honest, fairly powerful, very powerful piece of storytelling. I could have done without Michael Rooker's subplot where he was trying to get the attention of that elderly woman, the one who was hitting the guy.

[01:04:48] I don't even. Yeah. But I don't even know what the whole point of that was. Honestly, that was his mom, wasn't it? Yeah, that was like his mother. Everything about that whole sequence was so clumsy to me.

[01:04:58] And I couldn't really understand what was like the purpose of it. Well, he was moving furniture out of her house, I think that was meant for Sienna Miller and her daughter. But for some reason, he didn't want to tell her.

[01:05:12] I don't know that it did feel like an awkward way to get a, you know, physical comedy beat out of that situation. And I mean, it was so small in the overall grand narrative that I kind of brushed it aside.

[01:05:25] But I admit it was very awkwardly deployed within the story. Sure. All right, Giovanni, how about you? I feel like we discussed a lot of what I had on my chest about this film. I, I will say this conversation has steered me a little bit more positive.

[01:05:44] Although I have been thinking about it a bunch since. And I do like the ensemble as a whole, minus a few pieces, mainly Luke Wilson. I just wasn't really that fond of that storyline. I know it feels more I'm intrigued to see where it goes.

[01:05:56] The Oregon Trail aspect. For me, it was the scene where he goes up to the two guys after they check out. Yeah. Yeah. While she's bathing and he like marches up to them like listen, there's been a complaint. I don't want to have to do this.

[01:06:12] You guys don't want to have to listen to me. I've been doing my job, but I got to do it. And I just found something very relatable in that character in that moment of like, please, like, just make my life easy and don't do this.

[01:06:24] And then they like implied that they didn't care about his authority. And then all of a sudden you start to see him get like, oh, oh, you're you're going to defy me, you know, and then all of a sudden you're like, all right.

[01:06:37] I really like this guy, and I think that's the thing is that like despite the casting of Luke Wilson, I like that character a lot. And I'm intrigued to see more of that character having to play babysitter, like I said earlier, as as things move forward.

[01:06:54] They have planted the seeds even for characters I'm not like the biggest fans of for what we've talked about throughout this episode, just like potential transformations and where their arcs are going. So I am very intrigued on that aspect. I you know, I appreciate the very meditative pacing,

[01:07:11] especially in the beginning. I'm I'm very excited for the shootout, more shootouts, because I again, that scene with Jamie Campbell Powers is just one of my favorite scenes I've seen all year. I think if the movie was able to perfectly match that energy the entire time,

[01:07:25] although again, impossible for what it is trying to accomplish, I think I would have loved it more. And all I'm hearing is. It's complaint, complaint, criticize. No, no, no, not even that. No, you're just like such a oh my God. Like I hear my own dad.

[01:07:39] There's not enough action. Too much talking. Look, I'm not that type of guy. Like you sound like you're that type of guy. I just I don't know. Like nothing really happened. The stuff happened. It just if I'm going to sit back and watch it, Kevin Costner Western.

[01:07:53] This isn't going to be my my first pick. Like I far prefer open range. Like I like open range is just a well made movie compared to Horizon, which I think stumbles a lot of the way up into the ending when the highs are high, it works.

[01:08:08] And I'm very intrigued to see what's next. And like we've all said, I will be there. OK, I support this endeavor. Kevin can do no wrong by me, even when he does wrong by me.

[01:08:17] So as long as we keep the score, as long as we have the score throughout the rest of these movies, you know what? At least I get that. So that's my that's my thought on it. All right. My final thoughts here. Let's see what we got.

[01:08:30] Love the opening shot of the ants on the ground as they're planting the marker. I thought that was a very intriguing way to start things off here. I love the little beat of the family that are trapped inside the home as it's being attacked.

[01:08:45] And at one point, one of the one of the characters, like says to the father, your boy is watching. And it's like, man, against these overwhelming odds and in the face of what seems like certain death, got to be strong for your boy. Your boy is watching.

[01:09:01] I love, love, love, love that moment. And that's Kevin Costner's son, the boy. Yeah. So when he tells us he had a Miller, then, you know, it's all right. I'm going to be with dad. I'm like, oh, kid, you ain't going to make it. It is very touching.

[01:09:14] And like Kevin Costner's thoughts about like having his son play that character and that whole bond is just it works. That that works really well. I got to praise the costuming in this movie. I love the blue on Costner. I love the purple on Marigold.

[01:09:29] I love the dead coyote on John Beavers's character like so good. There's so many great pieces of costuming throughout. And I can't wait to see more as we get introduced to more characters. There's one point where where junior John Beavers kicks Jamie Campbell Bauer

[01:09:52] and that stunt man goes flying back like it's like a Sparta 300 kick. I was like, holy shit, like that. They yanked that stunt man at least eight feet backwards when he kicked him. I was like, holy shit. Really sells the animosity between those characters. Yeah, it's fantastic.

[01:10:17] As much as I like the shootout moment between Costner and Bauer, I thought that was great. The final set piece of this movie with the attack and the scalping and I don't know, just for me, that was a very underwhelming

[01:10:32] final set piece to kind of close things out on, which then once again kind of reaffirms that I'm correct in assuming that this is not meant to be a standalone film. We are so conditioned to seeing standalone part ones and part twos

[01:10:47] that that ending scene probably should have been bigger and more meaningful. And yet if I just view this as, OK, this is the first part, but it's not meant to work as a standalone film because that's just not what Costner is going for, that's not his intention.

[01:11:04] If I'm taking it as at face value, now if Costner comes forward and says, no, no, no, like this should work on its own, you know, if he says like you should be able to enjoy part one without having seen

[01:11:17] the other parts, I will then join the bandwagon with everybody else. But from what I've been hearing, he's been saying, you know, this is just part one of a larger story and you got to see the other parts to fully understand where I'm going with this

[01:11:33] and what ties all this together. And for that reason, I. Can't I mean, I'm going to I'm going to give this a grade, but it just feels odd to me and it doesn't feel right. And for all I know, this might retroactively go down.

[01:11:51] I swear to you right here, right now, Letterboxd better make a single log entry for the whole thing when it's over so that I could just do that. But as is chapter one, I am going to give this a six out of ten.

[01:12:09] And to be honest with you, the score by John Debney gave me a full point higher. Otherwise, this would have been in the mixed to negative territory for me. Giovanni, what about you? I was really hoping you would say, Josh, first,

[01:12:27] you know, when I got out, I was when I first saw it like a four. I have softened a little bit on certain aspects. I don't I feel like if I rewatch it again, knowing what I would expect,

[01:12:37] even for part one, maybe I enjoy it a bit better. I still feel like the issues I have with it as a whole will stay the same. I'm going to stick with I want to give it a five.

[01:12:49] I'm going to stick with a four, maybe on a rewatch or like seeing at least part two of part one, I could retroactively bump it up. But for now, I'll stick with a four.

[01:12:57] Josh. So the grade that I gave it out of can was an eight out of ten. And I'm still going to stick by it. I'm still going to give it an eight out of ten. I understand the flaws in it.

[01:13:09] I am definitely not admitting that it is, you know. It is perfect, but I did really like the movie. I really was so drawn in by what Costner was trying to do here. And it's ambitious.

[01:13:26] It's kind of messy in some places, but I was just so dialed into it. And I am excited for what's coming up. And yes, this is just an introduction, but I thought it was a pretty fantastic introduction all the same.

[01:13:40] And that averages out to a six out of ten between the three of us. So Oscar potential for Horizon, an American saga. I've got two. You guys tell me if I'm right or wrong here. I think. Score and costumes are its only path.

[01:14:01] Yeah, score, I definitely do think, although once again, like everything about the Oscar prospects of this movie is going to be muddled with Chapter two and how they handle that. But I think that the craft elements of this of this particular film that yes, score, absolutely.

[01:14:18] I'm a little bit more hesitant to say costumes. I'm not 100% sure if that's really going to catch on, but definitely score, I think, is the of those two is the stronger option that it could go for. I agree.

[01:14:32] But like, again, the second part comes out, like, how do they campaign that or they're just going to bundle them into one? Just be like Horizon. Or are they just going to like for each movie?

[01:14:43] Like I would have to be for each movie because there's only going to be one. So those are really the only two things. And I like, I don't even think like it could get costumes. But low key this year, there's some good costume work for some big movies

[01:14:56] that could push it out of their former show here. No, no. Let's let's be very clear here. This is probably not getting nominated for a single Oscar. OK, yeah. OK, I didn't want to be that guy. Like these are prospects.

[01:15:08] But yeah, you know, more than likely this is not going to be an Oscar nominee. If I'm going to be very, very generous, I could see that lone Golden Globe nomination for the score. Yeah, I can see that.

[01:15:19] That's like the one thing I could see happening as like kind of like an out of left field, like, whoa, OK, Globes. But yeah, that's that's it. But John Demney is, you know, he's a previous Oscar nominee. It has been like 20 years since that nomination.

[01:15:35] But and he has been nominated before. He's worked in the industry still very consistently. So there might be some respect for him just for his overall career that he might get in. I could see him showing up on the shortlist, for instance.

[01:15:50] But I do think it'll be an uphill battle for it to get nominated. But I could see a realm where it stays in the conversation enough where it seems like it could happen. All right. Well, if there's nothing else to touch upon here,

[01:16:03] that'll do it for chapter one of Horizon, an American saga, which we're going to be getting chapter two on August 16th. We will be reviewing it probably here on the podcast as well. My question to you guys is. Do you think we will see? Chapter three and four.

[01:16:27] Well, three, they're already filming right now. I think they're just on a break because of the publicity they're going to be doing for these films, but they've been filming three. Four is the one that is very much in the question mark zone right now.

[01:16:39] It's like Kevin's trying to secure more funding. I kind of hope so. Actually, no, I do hope so. I want Kevin to have his whole vision allowed to be out for everyone to see, to interpret it

[01:16:52] and that he gets to cross off this long, hopeful, bucket list project. He's he's talked about forever, like to be existing. That being said, I don't know if it'll fully exist. I hope it doesn't end up like something like Divergent, where

[01:17:08] at least the last one came out to a degree, although but like as it went on, it just people stopped caring and it never really finished, quote unquote. I think it would be one of the great misfortunes that we have experienced as cinephiles

[01:17:27] to get chapter one, two and three and then not four in a very funny comparison. It would almost feel like getting Westworld seasons one through three and then not getting the final season with four. Yeah, that's definitely what it would be. We just got screwed over there.

[01:17:48] I don't want to be screwed over again with the horizon, even though it's like, Kevin, you know, you want to bring television to the cinema. This is the risk that you take. We might cancel your final season. We'll see. I, I, I want it to be real.

[01:18:04] Like, please, let's just make it happen. I mean, let's be also very clear to nobody is canceling this. This is all just contingent upon whether or not if Costner can either pull together his own money or if he can get financers to help back his vision.

[01:18:18] And from what I understand, the personal funds are running dry. So it's going to be interesting, especially considering the reception, the box office performance like this has got to be a tough sell. I think he's going to do it. I have faith.

[01:18:39] Never underestimate a rich boomer who's got nothing else to do with his time. That's that is a good point. You know, Josh's cooking there. All right. Well, that'll do it for our review of Horizon American Saga Chapter one. Josh Parham, tell everyone that's listening right now

[01:18:53] where they can find you on the Internet. You can find me on Twitter and Letterboxd at JRParham. Giovanni Lago, you can find me on Twitter at the Giovanni Lago. I almost called you Giovanni Ribsy. Yeah, that's my alter ego, actually.

[01:19:09] And you can find me at Next Best Picture. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening to the Next Best Picture podcast. We are proud to be part of the Evergreen Podcast Network, and you can subscribe to us anywhere where you subscribe to podcasts.

[01:19:20] Be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and let us know what you think of the show. We really appreciate your feedback and your support, which you can also lend on over at Patreon for one dollar minimum a month.

[01:19:31] We'll get some exclusive podcast content from us. Thank you all so much for listening, as always. And we will see you all next time.

[01:21:03] I hope so, man. I'm tired. Who listens to a promo on a podcast and then goes and listen to a different podcast? Right. I've never done it.