Through mud & waters: Inside Ankola landslide mission | Ft Retd Major General Indrabalan | Ep 125

00:00:00 Speaker 1: On July 1620 24 a massive landslide struck the Panvel Kanyakumari N 66 in Karnataka Anko. Arjun, a truck driver from Kerala Kyo was returning home to his wife and two year old son. When the landslide caught him off guard. He was one among the nine people swept off by nature's fury that day. 00:00:23 Speaker 1: Although a search operation led by the Indira was lodged soon after the landslide, it yielded no results. However, Arjun's family was resolute. They would not rest until they found him. What started as a search for any sign of life later became a desperate plea for closure. 00:00:43 Speaker 1: The NDF the army, the Navy and diving experts were brought in to aid the search. Finally, after 72 long days on September 25 Arjun's truck was recovered from the depth of the Gaza River with his mortal remains in sight. 00:01:05 Speaker 1: Hi and welcome to news spread. This is on Manorama Explainer podcast and this is Harita Benjamin and today we have with us, retired major general Indra Balin to talk to us about the extremely tough mission that he spearheaded in Karnataka Angola. 00:01:23 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, sir. Thank you. So much for joining us today. Good morning. Ari, good morning. So you've been involved in the Angola mission from the second week of the search operation, right? And what were your expectations when you actually took up the task in the beginning? 00:01:39 Speaker 2: Uh 00:01:39 Speaker 2: I thought to be frank, I had gone there with practically no expectation except that we wanted to contribute in some way when we got to know that there was not much headway being made 00:01:51 Speaker 2: in uh locating and detecting uh the lost lives. So when we are approached with this, uh we knew that we had some technology which can work, but we also is not very sure how well it will work in the given circumstances, the conditions, the water, et cetera. But yet since the call came with a very, uh you know, very uh sympathetic appeal, we took a chance, we went there and 00:02:17 Speaker 2: practically actually no expectations except, 00:02:20 Speaker 1: right. Uh So you mentioned, you know, the currents, the weather, the location, all these factors were extremely challenging for your mission there. And you even, uh compared it to your experience in Cargill at some point. So could you briefly tell us how these factors actually challenged, uh you know, your plans in Angola? 00:02:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. Uh Actually when we went there, we were, we were expecting that by then, the weather would have uh subside, you know, subsidized. I should I say the weather would have subdued a bit that hadn't happened. And uh in fact, it had become even worse. So, uh it was interfering, the rain was incessant. It was red alert almost in all days. 00:03:01 Speaker 2: We barely got a break in between because the wind was touching 2025 knots and the water was eight knots plus eight knots. Plus means it's impossible to enter water, swim or do anything there. Even the boats, India was finding it difficult to properly negotiate the water with the boats. So under these circumstances, this task had to be done. 00:03:22 Speaker 2: And on top of that, uh we were in a blind spot in the sense that on an information blind spot when we reach there because it was becoming impossible to guess what exactly had happened. Uh It under these circumstances, we started, plus we are also a little apprehensive about how our uh equipment would perform there both in terms of its technological uh ability also under those conditions, whether we would actually damage our equipment, 00:03:49 Speaker 2: you know, this company, the start up company, we a tech start up trying to uh create a new innovation and we didn't want the recruitment to get spoiled. Uh That would have, you know, been a, a serious matter for us. So these were serious challenges to somehow be able to uh do some something, some good work despite these challenges. 00:04:08 Speaker 2: So since you asked that uh I compared to Cargill, uh no, to be very frank, uh comparing it to Cargill would not be fair because Cargill is a very different ball game. Car was a near warlike situation, uh, where the whole country was faced with the deceit by Pakistan and we had to throw out the intruders, 00:04:32 Speaker 2: uh, who are coming into the India and that's a war where you have, uh, shells flying where you have, uh, bullets flying where people are dying. Uh, you know, and then you have the challenges of high altitude warfare. You don't have, you could, you can't even breathe because the air is verified. Oxygen is low. You don't get food in time, but live or live in time, you don't get food uh for many occasions. So those conditions are extremely difficult. But yes, 00:04:59 Speaker 2: uh to say that uh post Cargill, uh if I did face a major challenge uh in, in being able to execute a task, uh Yes, I can say that uh this is one of those, 00:05:10 Speaker 1: right? Uh So you were speaking about the different technology and equipments uh which you used in an Angola and the art of technology has, you know, been highlighted uh by different media channels a lot because you know, there are uh arguments that it was probably applied for the first time in the country and even the continent. 00:05:29 Speaker 1: Uh So, uh if after the completion of the mission, you even remark that this could be uh used in future calamities like landslides. So could you elaborate on how uh advanced this technology is compared to, you know, the existing uh technologies which we had in India so far and how uh it could prove useful in future. 00:05:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. 00:05:53 Speaker 2: So this technology is to uh civil engineers and to people who work in this field is known as G pr ground penetration radar, but they use a certain set of uh radio frequency to penetrate the ground and the reflected wave is captured back that is analyzed to see whether there is any foreign object or any kind of pattern, which is not natural to the earth and then predict what it could be et cetera. So the civil engineers uh primarily use a G PR 00:06:23 Speaker 2: uh which is meant for identifying cracks in concrete or to ent five pipelines or se lines, et cetera. And that is based on a, on a, let's say a trolley uh mounted G PR system and used for a small purpose. Uh Also in places they have used this kind of G pr uh for I finding some sort of uh buried objects uh uh even in, you know, uh difficult situations, but this is the first time, possibly someone has mounted this on a throne. And 00:06:51 Speaker 2: because when you mount the system in a drone, it's a, it's a complete different technological uh ball game. It, it then moves on to a niche technology if not deep technology. Because here now you're not only utilizing the uh RF technology for transmitting and receiving these RF waves of a particular frequency that is just one part of it. 00:07:14 Speaker 2: The other part is uh how do you after receiving, how do you analyze it in a manner that we are able to get a good result? That is you require uh some sort of uh data bank uh which can be compared, this whole thing can be compared to and then you need to have uh a software uh which is uh almost like an assisted A I and which constantly learns in the machine learning process to be able to build upon this data. And thereafter come to certain conclusions, it primarily works on the fact 00:07:44 Speaker 2: that every material has a different dielectric property. Even objects have a different electric property depending on the size, shape and form. So this is this, you know, fundamental science which is used. So when you, when the earth has, when we know that earth is a soil or a black cotton soil or a particular, you know, uh soil or even further matter, a different form like water or snow. So we know what is the basic uh reflection of a wave which comes in a certain pattern. 00:08:12 Speaker 2: But anything when there's an obstruction, including a big stone, there is a wave pattern change. And when there is an outside object which is foreign to the earth or the material we're looking at, then the wave pattern is uh distinctly different. So it forms certain sort of a Parabola, the Parabolas have a different uh density and shapes and different locations. So this is what is predicted 00:08:37 Speaker 2: and the location thereafter uh is identified using uh various means, how much uh buried it is, how deep it is, et cetera. Also try to predict 00:08:46 Speaker 2: that is second part of the technology. The third part of the technology is having identified that there are certain foreign bodies inside or foreign objects which are, which are the ones which are of interest to us. Otherwise you'll find large, large number of things. So we have to rule out what is a stone, you have to rule out what is a log you to rule out what is some other natural material and come to what is foreign, which means which is plastic, which is explosive, which is metal, 00:09:11 Speaker 2: uh which is uh any other kind of uh you know uh object uh which is, which is not normally lying in the water. So to rule out these those objects and move on to these. Once you are home on to these, they need to further analyze to see which is of real interest to us. So this requires really, really deep uh understanding of the whole waveform pattern and it's a constant learning process so that now that the story doesn't end there, 00:09:38 Speaker 2: having possibly identified the foreign objects, we have to give the location of these on the ground with respect to geospatial positioning. Now giving geospatial positioning means now you're getting into the geospatial technology of using satellites to be able to come to its coordinate. Yeah, come to its coordinates in terms of location. So when you to identify the coordinates, there are different technologies available in the world, 00:10:03 Speaker 2: we have the GPS that is uh the Americans uh designed uh satellite formation. We have something which is designed by the Europeans. Uh We have something which is designed by the uh which is Galileo. We have got something from uh the Chinese we call as Baidu. The Japanese have system, the Russians, they have something called as gloss. So everyone, almost these, these 45 countries are the only ones who have their own satellite system to be able to give a geo position capability. 00:10:31 Speaker 2: The good part is here that India recently developed its own navi. Uh This is what all Indian every Indians are proud of. I'll talk about it later. But right now, what I'm stopping here is by saying that uh this positioning itself is a big challenge. How it is done is a separate ball game, we'll talk about it uh subsequently. 00:10:51 Speaker 2: So once all this is done, that is when we are able to give an approximate position of what might be the object with the probability factor and what might be its closest location, another again with the probability factor. So these are the, these are the technology 00:11:05 Speaker 2: now coming to your question on its application. Yes. Uh I think there are huge applications possible. Uh This technology can actually be of much use to security forces uh in terms of saving lives, especially when they proceed for an operation in the country, 00:11:22 Speaker 2: the environment or even the warfield. And usually when the forces are proceeding for operations, either the enemy would plant IEDs improvised explosive devices to prevent them from proceeding or they will plant mines or such obstacles which are buried underground and the security forces, whether it is told from the army or even from CRP of paramilitary forces. BS F 00:11:47 Speaker 2: uh all of them have lost large number of lives uh by being blown off by IE DS. We read about this in the papers very often. What we are looking at is how to deploy the technology to be able to predict the location of an IED prior to the security forces reaching there by giving them a lead time by flying a drone ahead of them 00:12:08 Speaker 2: which will take the path in which they are going and possibly give them a location that there is an ID planted here which can be neutralized by the people who are praying for it. So this is one such plant. 00:12:18 Speaker 2: The second employment could be that uh again uh the terrorists and the militants, they tend to bury arms cache for future use. So they bury it in the outskirts of villages, they bury it in uh jungles, et cetera. So these, these have to be identified. And again, for the same reason that we can't see below ground, it's difficult to identify this except when you have very, very high order of intelligence. 00:12:42 Speaker 2: So now, even if you have a small intelligence that there is some activity like will happen, we can take a drone there, run it and possibly locate where these are buried. 00:12:52 Speaker 2: A third is uh when uh similarly the militants and the terrorists use tunnels to cross across the border, even for smuggling activities, they create tunnels below ground. Because now we have the LC fence crossing, the fence becomes very difficult, the tunnels are created. So uh we have seen that we are able to see through even hard rock if there's a tunnel formation below. 00:13:13 Speaker 2: So we can possibly predict location of tunnels or identify possible uh presence of a tunnel in some areas which can be then utilized by the security forces. So these are four, let's say warlike or near warlike situation, then let's come to disaster like situation. So similarly, 00:13:31 Speaker 2: in a disaster situation, the security forces likewise face disasters. Uh Many times it is, it is, it's a phenomenon which is something we we have to live with all the time where there are avalanches, whether it is Xia and whether it is Ladak, whether it is Kashmir, whether it is Northeast every time 00:13:47 Speaker 2: security forces since they are right in the forefront in the in the border areas, in areas that are prone to avalanches, they're prone to flash floods, they're prone to landslides. Uh These are phenomenon that happen and uh their survivability therefore becomes a big question in such an eventuality. 00:14:04 Speaker 2: Many times we have seen that if you are able to find that there are people trapped in such situations, whether it is built in a crevasse or buried in the snow or maybe buried in some kind of uh you know, 00:14:16 Speaker 2: rubble, et cetera. If you are able to use this and say that yes, there is a human presence somewhere here within a given period of time, it's possible to rescue that person and save that life. So this is another use we can put it to 00:14:29 Speaker 2: and in addition to which we can also locate the arms and weapon systems which get lost in the Alans. So these are the peacetime application that I'm looking for, of course, for disaster, save lives in situations like we mentioned in sh or uh you know, why not even once our technology becomes uh more, better, more efficient, uh more predictable. Then I think we can deploy this even in disaster like situation to the people to save lives. It is very much possible, 00:14:58 Speaker 1: right? So that's 00:14:59 Speaker 1: a lot of promising applications from the G PR technology. But uh besides that, there are many advanced devices and equipment which you used uh in the shu, right? Uh for example, the drones which are, you know, taking the G PR technology and then the thermal imaging cameras, Navis Sonar, the Army Deep search uh metal detectors and finally the dredger. So, could you tell us how, you know these devices and equipment actually proved helpful in each stage of the mission? 00:15:29 Speaker 2: Oh, yes. I think uh everyone who came there had a role to play and had a contribution to make, irrespective of which came from. For instance, let's say uh the India, which came there, they did probably did not have advanced system, but they had the best boats with them. And it is because of that, that we could wade through such higher quality of water. And they were very responsive in providing us any help at any time in an underwater conditions. 00:15:56 Speaker 2: Coming to the Navy. Yes, they had flown a sonar in the helicopter. They also brought a sonar which would be dipped in water. So sonars have a little limitation when it comes to muddiness of water and flowing water, etcetera. So while the sonar did some work, they did get some signals and that initial signals helped us to hold on to 00:16:16 Speaker 2: certain areas where we can start our own exercise rather than going on a blind search across the entire 100 m by 400 m stretch. So that is one thing that Navy's operation helped us with. They gave us some idea where they had indicative uh you know, signals of certain types. Likewise, the army had deployed it a deep search metal detector, 00:16:37 Speaker 2: the deep military have a, has a challenge. That one, it is, it can only go as deep as 3 to 4 m. That also it's a new one. Secondly, it, it can only sense a metal because based on a magnetic principle, so it sends magnetic signals and whenever it comes across metallic, the magnet kind of response, and you predict that there is some present here. 00:16:57 Speaker 2: So when they initially used it on land to search, it was almost neutralized because the presence of iron ore, a lot of iron filings or some sort of thing there, they got too many false positives in water. Using it was a big challenge because they had never tried it in water. But very innovatively, the soldiers would come there. They sat on the India Airport on the Navy boat and innovated their own method 00:17:21 Speaker 2: and prediction ability to be able to do some work out of this. And in fact, let me tell you that CP number three, 00:17:29 Speaker 2: uh where we actually found the cables later was found by the board of engineers. They had brought in the deep search meditator and they are the ones who took me there. And sir, we are getting huge signal here. We could not see what it is, but I could myself sat in the boat. I went with him and I saw that his deep set me was giving strong signals of metallic presence there. So that told us there something metallic was there, but we were unable to do something. And at that time, we 00:17:54 Speaker 2: tried pushing some metallic things inside and putting some uh you know, rod et cetera, but we couldn't touch anything. So we were surprised that if such strong signal is coming, which is close to 3 m, even when we put something inside, nothing was coming. But we are sure that the metallic signal cannot be uh you know, otherwise there has to be something there. So that will also help us put something. So likewise, uh everything, as I say, would give us a picture, the local population, the Emily, 00:18:22 Speaker 2: the DC, the sp there, they gave us a full picture of whatever they could capture from the local population as to how uh the lands that had occurred, what eyewitnesses could see it after the land had occurred, they gave some story. So all the story we have to put together to kind of uh create a uh you know, possible area where we could start the search from. 00:18:45 Speaker 2: But if this entire story and the input from the Navy Air Force was not on the army was not available to us, we would have taken us more than 1015 days just to search the entire area was 00:18:56 Speaker 2: great. 00:18:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think, you know, we often say that too many Fil Thero but in this case, at least you know, the the speciality of each groups, the NDRF, the Navy, the underwater diving experts and all these heterogeneous groups came together beautifully to execute that mission, 00:19:15 Speaker 1: uh you know, salute for that, 00:19:18 Speaker 2: you know, so I would like to make a statement on that, you see what happened somehow because the way the media was reporting it, the way Artin's family was appealing, the way the ML A was responding, I think there was a huge positivity there and everyone wanted to contribute in some way and they were not working at cross processes, they were not working with competitive interest. Everyone wanted to say, see, this is what I can do because let's at the end of the day, let's achieve some aim. Problem 00:19:44 Speaker 2: happens uh in an environment where people start working at crop purposes or become individualistically uh goal achieving where we say, listen, I need to show what I can do. That's when things happen. And hopefully, because possibly uh the rank that I come from the area, you know, the organization I come from, we, we always believe in collaborative effort and we could pull off that collaborative effort without letting competitive tendencies coming into the, you know, whole environment there. 00:20:12 Speaker 1: OK. So um now that, you know, we have discussed about the positivity like uh did you always, you know, face that positivity from the authorities or they will was there at some juncture where you felt, you know, that uh there should be more positive response from the Karnataka government or the Kerala government or the media was there sometimes when you actually felt a little irritated. 00:20:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a very apt question, Harita. So what happens is in, in situations like this, uh there will always be cycles of uh hope and cycles of uh possibly loss of hope 00:20:48 Speaker 2: uh or also the some sort of cynicism also coming in. So uh wherever I could get some uh information from people, I could also hear that there were, there were people who were uh you know, expressing cynicism as well in all this. But fortunately, I was actually blind to what was happening outside. Uh in terms 00:21:08 Speaker 2: of I, I never heard any discussion in the media. I never heard anything that was happening outside because I was totally focused on work. Some friends just send some information to me here and there. I think that possibly helped me maintain a positive state of mind without being influenced by the citizen being expressed by a certain set of people. But I think they were in a minority, they were not in a majority at all. Also in so far civil administration is concerned yet there is bound to be difference of opinion. How do you approach a subject 00:21:35 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, civil administration has its challenges, what it can do, what it cannot do, what should be done. They have limited resources, how much should be deployed? The resource of a sale is meant for the entire community not for a certain set of people. So if you, if you deploy too much resources on a particular activity tomorrow, some other activity happen. 00:21:54 Speaker 2: We compare that. But there are many challenges civil admission faces when it takes a decision. Notwithstanding that I think they, I think they did respond in a great manner. The only place where I felt that um uh you know, one could have a little more stricter was when uh uh Malp decided to go inside to do a dive there. And uh while I appreciate him for his courage, for his uh you know, professional ability, 00:22:18 Speaker 2: but at that point in time going into water, uh you know, was not a good idea. It was not a good idea. So that is the only place where I felt that uh uh people, authorities there, I was not controlling, that could have been a little more stricter and in not pushing him there at that point in time because that was not required at that point in time is all what I felt. But yes, I definitely appreciate the fact that he offered himself, he showed the courage to do it under the circumstances. Uh Very 00:22:45 Speaker 2: right. 00:22:46 Speaker 1: And what did you feel when you finally found the truck? And did you speak to Arjun's family after 00:22:51 Speaker 2: this? To be very frank? Yes, that was the second round that I went there. We thought that, you know, immediately after that, why not happened and then why not took the center stage naturally. So and I never expected this to happen again. We were also wondering whether our technology did after all work or not. When will you ever know? And of course, we were also 00:23:11 Speaker 2: when Arjun Arjun's family will get a closure. So suddenly again, uh like last time, last time it happened when I was traveling for my grandmother's 104th birthday and I got a call in the mid to you know, come there. This time I was traveling to Delhi, I was about to board the aircraft when I got a call from the Satish Ami uh saying that uh listen, tell sir, we have a small request for you. We have been trying to do this dredging work for the last two days. As you advised by you, we have managed to get the trea here. 00:23:40 Speaker 2: But uh we're not locating something. Can you come over and help us, you know, mark these points once again so that we are more focused on our search. I said, listen, I'm just boarding the flight, et cetera. Listen. No, you please have to come and uh Arjun sister is right next to me. She wants to speak to you and request you to come. So I felt, you know, uh 00:23:57 Speaker 2: little emotional about that. I said, listen, don't bother her to speak to me. She must be in a different emotional jet of mine. Let her not speak to me that I can request the fact that you told me she's there is enough for me. Let me see what best I can do. And then after I landed in Delhi, at the middle of the night, 00:24:12 Speaker 2: we had a chat and uh then the next day, uh we decided to come there. So I took the flight and landed there and even when I landed there, I was not sure what I'm going to do, how I'm going to do. But yes, fortunately because the points that we had marked there, we had taken a 12 figure, good reference of this properly recorded. Everything submitted a proper report to the ML A. It was not a slips shott work, it was done a proper military manner, 00:24:36 Speaker 2: everything was reported so that tomorrow somebody goes back to see what was given uh in our uh you know, outcome in our performance, it can be verified so that we picked up again and I again with the help of uh same the treasure team. This time, we went on ground and marked boys, four boys in CP one cp two, cp three, cp four. The good part I found this time was since you asked me in the last question about the role of treasure, I think the pressure team had a fantastic role play 00:25:05 Speaker 2: is a gentleman by name Mahindra. 00:25:07 Speaker 2: I must compliment him for his professionalism and for his uh responsiveness, you know, the enthusiasm to do the work, but not that he just come there to do some work, totally enthusiastic. So when he, the moment he knew that I had come, he came running, shook hand with me. He said, sir, please come to my boat and tell me where it is. You know, he went out of his will do everything rain, no rain. We could put his boys behind me. So, uh, in the evening itself, we could go and put these uh uh poor boys next day. In the morning, 00:25:37 Speaker 2: evening, we had a recy where we found that there was some, uh you know, some pieces of truck, uh uh the other truck which had been found. And there again, I met uh Arjun's sister and having met her, as I've said earlier, uh I felt that we need to do something for this family because she was, 00:25:54 Speaker 2: you know, very, very, uh hopeful that this time something will come out and I could see it in her eyes and she was very positive in the way she approached us and she was talking to the media. I found she was very, very hopeful and, you know, not at all cynical there, obviously waiting with hope that she would be able to see her brother someday. So that enthused me to early morning next day, go to the water and uh we mock those four boys. 00:26:19 Speaker 2: Uh even then I was not sure what will the outcome, but I knew that at least there'll be some outcome, it, it can be positive, it can be negative if in none of these four points, nothing came out. Well, we have stuck our neck out and we would end up with huge criticism. I knew that as well. But if something did come out, we would have some sort of a closure and maybe some validation of our technology. So this is a very interesting story 00:26:43 Speaker 2: that uh so the same evening, they, I I had asked them to search the CP four and CP three because that is where we had got the strongest signal and they started searching 00:26:51 Speaker 2: and by evening, nothing was found. So there was some sort of uh apprehension that has started flowing uh in the public and in the environment. So some people called me also, see you said, three people, they have found nothing. So what is this all about? Is your equipment working? Some of my friends asked me also, I said, listen, as I said, we are on a trial basis, but I'm sure the equipment is working. Let me check. So I spoke to this gentleman Mahira and his uh operator. He said, sir, it's not that we have not found anything, you're not revealed to the others. We have found a huge pile electric 00:27:20 Speaker 2: and there we also found cables in CP three. So I said, very good. This is fantastic for us. This shows that we have the fact that we predicted presence of metallic signature that has come through. Which means if this is where these two things are, then there's a very high possibility that CP two, where we had predicted the cabin of the tanker, that is where the truck could be. I told them next day we start the search from there. That is how they started the search in CP two next day, I said you must search around 30 m around the point I have marked for you 00:27:49 Speaker 2: and they did that and they are fantastic guys the way they do the work. Uh It's really appreciable the way they have actually brought the uh dredger all the way from goa under two bridges. They have used innovative means to cross the gap between the bridge, et cetera. Those are all uh a different set of technology innovations they have done, which again needs a proper mention of. Anyway, here they did a serious search there. And by about 1030 11, they started getting traces of presence of the para be ST truck. 00:28:18 Speaker 2: That's when uh the diver had gone in and the diver went inside with a video camera he saw and he could move the earth there and found that the trucks cabins part could be clearly visible. He came up, send that video to me. So by 1130 00:28:32 Speaker 2: I, we were clear that the truck had been found, but this was not yet announced in the media because we want to make sure that we are able to explicate it. That is where the professionalism of this uh graduate team came in. They send the diver again, they fix the, you know, old fast at different places because pulling out such a huge thing from underwater, imagine 9 m load of water 00:28:53 Speaker 2: on that thing. Plus its own load, the whole weight will cross anything between 20 to 25 tons. This is what a normal person who's not, uh who doesn't understand the fluid dynamics, et cetera, pressure will not understand pulling it out was a humongous exercise, which is one, you must give credit to this uh ma and his D team. But I mean, pulled it out 00:29:15 Speaker 2: and by uh by about two o'clock, we, we, we had already seen that inside the truck was there, we had not pulled it out and then we sent across a message to media that breaking news might be coming and the ML A had come on board by then and this is this history, 00:29:28 Speaker 1: right? So, uh to wind up, what are the lessons we actually learned from this mission? 00:29:34 Speaker 2: Yes. So there are some serious lessons. Uh we need to uh learn on all three fronts, possibly on the front of the environment, on how we deal with the environment. 00:29:44 Speaker 2: Uh something as society and of course something as uh as the technology and as a nation. So I'll, I'll not categorize it, but I'd probably go one by one and not in a sequential manner. Um I think one of the most important lessons on technology I would cover first because that is my domain is that um you know, India must switch over to Davi. 00:30:07 Speaker 2: It is uh the GPS called the global positioning system is an American system in which all of us are totally dependent. 00:30:16 Speaker 2: Whether it is you are an individual or the industry or the biggest multinational government really depends on American system to know where you are. And it's not just that when you know where you are, he also knows where you are 00:30:30 Speaker 2: and you know how, how dangerous that can be. It looks like a simple statement to say that he, when I say he, I mean, the people who control the GPS knows exactly where every Indian is. And in the Indians, we have people who need, it should not know where they are, there is military, there is forces, there is all this. So it is, 00:30:49 Speaker 2: uh you know, it is a nightmare to know that today the GPS, the Americans choosing GPS technology knows exactly where the, the most important people, the most important industries, the most important world that's happening. They have everything and after what you have seen the pager thing, that's how the pager things are deployed because they know exactly where they are, who is there, what they are. So, is it a good idea for a nation like India 00:31:16 Speaker 2: to continue to remain dependent? On GPS or should a nation like India, which is now coming as the fifth largest economy and also possibly the fourth largest armed forces. Uh both powerful armed forces could be depend on such a critical thing on American GPS. No, not at all. 00:31:34 Speaker 2: We have to switch over to India's own NAVI, which is known as navigation of Indian constellation. We have 13 satellites up in the sky, up in the space which the Indian government has put up and this is ready to give you the right kind of navigation. It is just that the downstream part of it is being still put in place, it is taking some time for whatever good or bad reasons. But then this is where a hard push needs to be given by the government 00:31:58 Speaker 2: to say that listen from so and so date all Indian movement, whether it is be movement, whether it is toll gate, whether it is security forces where it is whatever must switch over to GPS. And it, when it ultimately happened like we did for GST, 00:32:13 Speaker 2: it was white like we did for uh other, there were challenges for two years. People were in terrible shape, but ultimately, things have settled now, exactly like that once a hard push is given the system will automatically fall in place. And this to me is a critical lesson I'm saying. So because 00:32:30 Speaker 2: we found that while we were using GPS S, our accuracy was facing a big challenge. So we did get a NAIC chip and a NAIC ipod to be able to locate us better there and we found the results are better. Plus I know that I can depend on it. So this is one lesson for the over two NAIC India Z own. Uh Second, I feel that uh yes, the disaster management agencies need to adopt more high end technology to save lives and to rescue people in a faster time frame. 00:32:59 Speaker 2: Uh then what it has now. So I'm sure the people who are sitting in the positions are taking note of all this, they're all very mature people and they will see what technology is good for them. So this is what one of my recommendation is um coming to uh human. Uh 00:33:15 Speaker 2: Yes, possibly, I think between, why not? And here, what I would say is that if you, if you kind of go and uh uh place yourself in areas which are the territory of nature, uh then we should also be ready to face disasters and face a situation, especially if you had to bring the wine or concept. 00:33:33 Speaker 2: I want to say that uh in why not the trigger of the uh landslide was not a human uh you know, encroachment. It was definitely not because it happened in an area where there is zero human encroachment. The trigger. But why so much losses happened is because human encroachment ha what happened on the sides of the uh the the canal, the river that river there. Um 00:33:57 Speaker 2: they had moved into area where in the past floods have happened, there are flood line marks are there. So when we know that such things have happened in the past, I think as humans, we have to be a little more wary of this. So when the government says that there are certain no zone areas where we should not do construction, I think we need to learn to respect that both from the point of respective nature and point of avoiding disasters. 00:34:19 Speaker 2: So these are, these are some of the things I think there are some lessons as humans and for nature is concerned as they see. And of course, some there are some very good lessons that uh by collaborative work by teamwork, by not being competitive, by being together towards a goal. Uh We can exploit the resources of each and every agency and come up with possibly uh much better results, 00:34:39 Speaker 1: right? Uh So thank you for answering that question. Now, before we wind up, I'd like to ask an unrelated question to Shur. Uh Now another Malai family also received a closure uh when the body of a 22 year old uh was recovered uh almost 56 years ago after he met uh a crash uh in the in ni a aircraft, right uh near the Rohan Pa. So do you have any remarks on this decades long mission to trace uh missing individuals. 00:35:09 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. I think this is something that goes without saying that we have to trace out people who are missing in the military. We have a norm, uh you know, a person is declared missing 00:35:22 Speaker 2: uh if not uh died in battle, if you don't find him. And when it says missing, the missing could be anything missing, could mean he's captured by the enemy. He's died in a landslide or something or he's died of a bullet, we are not able to trace him or he's, he's gone hay. Possibly he's even become a runaway. We don't know what it is, but he's given a missing status. 00:35:47 Speaker 2: Is missing. Status is not a very good status for anyone because the families live with a, with a very hopeless situation, not hopeful situation because when he's missing, we have no information. If the family knows that he's a pow and he's there somewhere languishing in the jail of the enemies, then we know he's there and then there is hope that someday the government will succeed in bringing him back and there is hope that he's alive somewhere and breathing. 00:36:16 Speaker 2: But when you say it is missing, we don't know what exactly has happened with that individual. So it's very traumatic for a family to live with a missing situation. Therefore, to my mind, whenever such a situation arises, I think we together as a society or as a government or as people, 00:36:33 Speaker 2: we have to do everything to convert this missing status to found status in whatever form this f could be. So uh this closure for the family, I think after so many years is, has been very important and somebody asked me this question, why is it so important to have a closure? 00:36:50 Speaker 2: So uh I think uh there is a very, very valid answer for that. See, there are two closures for all of us. Uh You know, whenever we leave this world, one is a legal closure, the there is a financial closure. So in the new system until unless there is, there is a force report is made and the person is declared as no more living or is declared as 00:37:12 Speaker 2: after certain size is done, you cannot issue a death certificate and the register of certificates will not keep that. And unless that happens, there are so many things that follow on from there, whether it is sufficient, whether it is airship, whether it is compensation, whether it is uh I finding the cause of death, was it history? The cause was because of genuine natural causes 00:37:35 Speaker 2: or was it because of somebody's uh you know, unnatural causes or something else? Somebody else needs to be punished for this thing. The law of all those legal closures only happen once you're able to do a proper closure and get a holistic report. So from legal point of view, the benefits to the family and the concern of the family, both are at risk. Second comes the spiritual closure 00:37:58 Speaker 2: again, irrespective of faith that you follow. We have a system of closing the departure of the soul in a certain way as per our respective faiths. And only once we do that in our respective area, as the whole of India, we have this belief that then we say the soul has rested in peace or the soul has now been sent to wherever the soul is supposed to go and 00:38:20 Speaker 2: itself, that spiritual closure requires certain performances. That can only happen if you have some semblance of the remnants of the mortal remains to be completed with this process. So for these two reasons, I feel closure becomes important for any family. Right? 00:38:36 Speaker 1: So now, you know, in the mission, the Dogra scouts were part of the search mission, I think four times and now the Chandra Baga Mountain expedition recovered the four bodies. 00:38:47 Speaker 1: So what do you have to, you know, say about their models of brandy? Because it it's a high altitude area you've been to, you know, those kind of terrains. How challenging do you think these of this 58 year long mission would have 00:39:01 Speaker 1: been? 00:39:02 Speaker 2: You see, definitely there is no doubt that these missions are very challenging. The army taking it up with all, all goodwill and good reason. It helps in many ways, 00:39:13 Speaker 2: you know, the army for the armed forces, the strength of an armed forces over and above its weapon systems. Over and above its soldiers. What technology that it has? There is a major component of the strength of the armed forces called as the morale and also it's called as the camaraderie. The morale and camaraderie is not something that is built over one or two days. It is built over this consistent belief 00:39:39 Speaker 2: that whatever condition we are in whatever condition we are in. If, if we die for the sake of the nation, if you die doing something for the organization, the organization will not let us down and it will make sure that our families receive the closure, receive the benefits, receive whatever they are supposed to receive. And you are given an honorable, uh you know, uh departure from this organization. This is what binds soldiers and this is what makes them 00:40:05 Speaker 2: willingly go and give their lives when it is called upon. So dying otherwise, in an accident and willingly going and dying for a nation, they are two different things altogether that pulls apart. So this willingness comes from this, this kind of activity that the military does to ensure that we, we go whatever extreme like we need to do. That is one while we're doing that. I also feel that when you do such missions, it also helps the military to train 00:40:31 Speaker 2: because ultimately soldiers have to fight under the circumstance and when they do this, so there is a mission when they train. So when you train just for training's sake. And you train with a mission like this. There is an added alacrity to the kind of motivation that listen, we're going to search your brethren. So he will go that extra step to take that extra risk or to put in extra bit to do that. So 00:40:55 Speaker 2: training becomes far better in that manner as well. So I feel such missions helps the military to train itself to enhance the morale of his group, enhance camaraderie. And at the end of the day convey a message to the nation that we are one nation and we are all 00:41:09 Speaker 2: together. 00:41:10 Speaker 1: All right. So I think with that, we can wind up today's episode. Thank you so much, Major General Indra Palin for joining us today. And this is on Manor's News Break and explain a podcast produced by Harita Benjamin. That is me. 00:41:24 Speaker 1: It airs every week and is available on all podcast platforms. Do follow on manora.com for more updates.