Join us as we speak with Neetu Vasanta and Shilpa Kumar to discuss the scheme’s implementation in different states across the country and also talk about the implementational challenges. We also discuss the challenges that the industry faces along with consumers while buying property under the act.
Host: Bhargavi Zaveri, a researcher interested in land and access to finance, Land of a Billion is a fortnightly podcast series produced in association with the Property Rights Research Consortium.
Guests:
Neetu Vasanta is the Managing Director and Partner in BCG's New Delhi office, and leads the topic of the real estate sector for BCG in India. She is a core member of BCG's Industrial Goods Practice Area.
Shilpa Kumar is a Partner at Omidyar Network India, a social impact investment fund Shilpa provides overall leadership, including strategy and investments, across the areas of Digital Society, Urban Governance, Access to Justice and Property Rights initiatives. She also leads policy work in Financial Inclusion and in development of the Non Profit sector strategy.
Music: Big Bang Fuzz
Follow the series on:
Apple: https://apple.co/3kW1Bra Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3EYTHpf JioSaavn: https://bit.ly/3AYtoNn Google Podcast: https://bit.ly/2ZLlOYP
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
[00:00:00] We aim to bring you expert conversations about the most contentious of the Holy Roti Kapra Macantunity, that is, the Macant over our heads and the larger ecosystem that governs it. This podcast is produced in association with the Property Rights Research Consortium supported by Omidya Network India.
[00:00:40] I am Bargavee, a researcher interested in Land and Access to Finance and your host for this season. We all know of at least one family member, friend, colleague, neighbour who has faced build a trouble. Bera Divella Power has either not delivered possession on time or has delivered premises
[00:01:05] that are leaky or otherwise defective or having delivered the premises has refused to execute a conveyance in favour of the cooperative housing society or the occupation certificate spending or the completion certificate is spending and so on and so forth.
[00:01:19] The thuggery of real estate agents in India is also the staff of foreplored. This was best first on a fight in a 2016 movie, a host lurk of host lurk of host lurk
[00:01:27] where when new host lurk who had invested his life savings in a plot of land to build a retirement home did not end up getting that plot of land because of a land grab issue.
[00:01:37] Not exactly similar, but in 2015-16 we saw several developers like Amrapali and JP being taken to the insolvency courts by homeowners who had given advances but were never given their homes. Today as we speak we see a similar issue emerging in China for ever ground a large
[00:01:55] developer who is similarly gone bankrupt without delivering the homes and having taken advances for building them. When it comes to real estate in India my favourite data point which I use very often is that 77% of the average Indian household portfolio is invested in real estate.
[00:02:14] There is a large chunk of most Indian savings is invested in a home and offers a retirement home or a plot of land. It is therefore surprising that despite land being such an integral part of an Indian house
[00:02:27] holds life, the consumer protection in the real estate developer sector was rather weak until recently. When in 2015 the real estate regulation and development act was enacted to provide for a stronger consumer protection framework in the real estate developer space. Five years hence how has the law fair?
[00:02:48] As for a recent BCC report published in June 2021, 26 of 29 states have a basic red or set up in place. But has red are really made a difference to the confidence that consumers have been buying real estate property in India.
[00:03:04] Have the awareness levels of consumers improved and most importantly does the grievance to dress will work. Today we have with us two guests who extensively follow this space very closely. We have with us Nithu Wassanta who is the managing director and partner in BCC's new Delhi
[00:03:22] office and leads a real estate worker for BCC in India. She is also a core member of BCC's Industrial Goods Practice Area. We also have with us Shilpa Kumar who is partner at Omedia Network India, a social impact investment fund.
[00:03:36] Shilpa provides over our leadership including strategy and investments across the areas of digital society, urban governance access to justice and property rights initiative. Welcome Nithu and Shilpa to the land of a billion podcasts. Great being here, Parvara. Thanks for the opportunity.
[00:03:52] Let's begin with setting the context in which this law was enacted. Can you tell us what was it like before this law was passed? What were the problems that this law tried to address? Sure. Let me think that. First of all thank you for the brilliant introduction.
[00:04:08] Let me start with some numbers right. Real estate as we understand is close to 6.5% of GDP and employees over 50 million people and has a huge multiplier effect when it comes to employment. Right here on that's one part of the story.
[00:04:26] Why is real estate and anything to do with real estate important? I think personally it's the second part of the story which you touched upon. It's about many Mr. Kostas, which at least 5-6 years ago, had put in all of their life saving into buying a property.
[00:04:42] 77% yes that's the percentage of saving that every man puts into buying a real estate space. And what's even starker is 75% of that money is for self use. It's not like an investment where I'll reap benefits.
[00:04:58] It's really about buying a home or a shop where I will live in or where I will work. And you know, unfortunately at least you know, 6-7 years ago this whole sector was front with problems. There was very limited accountability of the developers.
[00:05:13] A lot of laws as we saw were in favour of developers. There was complete information asymmetry. When is the project coming up? How do I track it? There was limited digital information available to the consumers who had paid up and advanced.
[00:05:29] There was very little close to nil financial disclosure when it came to real estate. So you know as Mr. Kostas, you had given a large chunk of money but you never knew whether the developer has got the land approval whether the developer will start construction.
[00:05:44] What does the timeline like? Somebody promised you something and then, you know, you're just blind. I think the other system was it was not just between the developer and the consumer. There was a complete lack of trust in the entire ecosystem.
[00:05:56] The financiers didn't know what projects they could or could not, you know, finance. The brokers were not aware of what were they trying to sell. The architects didn't know when the developer would go bust.
[00:06:08] And then we had, you know, a lot of these infamous developers doing stuff that we've already a lot of when he was about. So you know, there was, you know, a complete vicious cycle if I'm going to call it
[00:06:20] of Mr. in the entire system and in a sector where people are pouring in all the savings. There is just very limited accountability. I think it was called for an action immediately. And you know that was why Rira came into effect, right?
[00:06:38] The primary cause was how do you bring back consumer trust? How do you make sure that it's a level playing field for the consumers as well as the developers? And then how do you, you know, bring the trust back into the entire ecosystem.
[00:06:54] That was really the backdrop of Rira came in. And I think, you know, we fight yours into it. I think there's a not that has happened, right? Again, like I used to say, you know, let me start with the numbers.
[00:07:08] India's global real estate transparency rank which was 41 in 2016 when Rira was launched is already up to 33. Can it get better? Of course. But I think, you know, that's also a journey that we've traversed.
[00:07:21] If I talk about the different impact that it has had on different stakeholders, I think, you know, for me the top five would be one. I think it has truly brought transparency to the real estate sector.
[00:07:33] You know, in our report, very interview more than 1300 stakeholders and also developers and real estate agents. Most people, you know, 80% of the consumers said that they would only buy a property which is Rira registered.
[00:07:48] It is because they still have faith that if a property is registered with Rira, we will get information on time. There will be some accountability of the bidder and they know who to reach out to in case something goes wrong. So that's number one.
[00:08:04] You know, I think just bringing transparency to the sector and having information available to the consumer. I think the second thing which has happened is, you know, honestly I feel builder accountability has increased.
[00:08:15] People who could get away with not firing, you know, documents on time and now we've made two at least published there results every three months. And that has also put a lot of pressure on them to clean up their internal books.
[00:08:30] And so I think that for me would be number two, I also feel that, you know, because of the regulation and because of the transparency and the accountability service of project delivery have actually improved.
[00:08:41] I think, you know, the other good part is that it is actually each a lot towards protecting consumer rights. People now have a address of forum. Some states are doing exceptionally when and on, you know, resolving some of the conflicts
[00:08:56] even before it comes to the address of forum. And I think in general, consumer rights are being protective. And I think last but not the weeks, it is reverse the vicious cycle on the anti-trust moments. So now there is actually a greater trust amongst the forensic holders.
[00:09:14] People trust the developers who are a radar register. The architects also know that the funds are which were going into the project are actually kept in the project. The financiers feel a lot more comfortable and of course the consumer's feel a lot more comfortable.
[00:09:28] So I would just say that, you know, it has put the wheels in motion in the right direction. There's long way to go, but I think we've already seen a lot of improvement. That's great. Thanks, Nitu. So just a couple of points, right?
[00:09:41] I completely agree on the trust point and even for our listeners, I mean, just look at under construction real estate projects around you. What you will find is that at least this is what I have observed in the city of Bombay
[00:09:53] is that these big hoardings actually prominently display that it is a radar register project. And now if I don't see that on a hoarding, I begin to wonder, is this okay? Is this not okay? And that, I mean, conventional economics with suggest the consumers actually respond
[00:10:08] to these kinds of things and that's why developers actually bother putting it up on the hoarding, right? So that's one thing. The second is, you know, the timing of this law. This law came about in about 2016, 17 and at the same time, there was another phenomenon
[00:10:25] going on in India, which is the enactment of the insolvency and bankruptcy law. And I think, never, you know, the newspapers were filled up to the brim with headlines of various developers being dragged to the insolvency courts by consumers who had not been
[00:10:39] paid, who had given advances for their flats, but were not being provided. The flats were not delivered to them or the interests stopped flowing in. And then we were, you know, the insolvency law was looked at like this place where even
[00:10:52] consumers rights of homeowners could be sort of enforced when solvents, which is not exactly a great outcome. So they don't actually save the day in many ways for both the developers because consumers could now actually use a proper consumer protection law that would protect their rights
[00:11:09] as opposed to directly, you know, hitting the insolvency courts with insolvency of developers. But that's just to thought out there in terms of the timing of the law, right? And Shilpa, what do you think? I mean, do you really believe that Rira has actually strengthened transparency?
[00:11:23] Do you think it has improved on for instance consumers in the real estate sector? What are your views on how the law is planned out on the down. Yeah. So Bargabri, you know, you mentioned your favorite factoid when you started about, you know,
[00:11:36] almost three-fourths of a person's assets being in their house or land. And the flip side, you know, to that factoid is civil cases and India as you well know, bulk of them actually relate to land and house disputes.
[00:11:54] And to meet the flip sides of the two coin, always really, you know, amazed me that the largest asset class and also the most litigated asset class in the country. And I also agree with you that, you know, the five years before this act came,
[00:12:10] were actually probably some of the most turbulent times in the real estate sector. And therefore if you look at, you know, the results of this survey, I think one big takeaway is that it has helped improve customer confidence.
[00:12:28] It has helped support developers who can now rely on Rira kind of registration to sell their projects. And therefore it has really, you know, brought back confidence into the sector and brought back confidence into customers buying homes.
[00:12:48] I think that did come across, but Bargavipu, what do you know, peel the honey in a little bit more? I think what's interesting is that the customer, the consumer seems to be almost thinking of Rira registration as the hallmark of everything being okay once they have invested.
[00:13:07] And this really came home to me because as we were discussing the report of a friend of mine actually told me about an aunt. She says, you know, she was so pleased with herself because she,
[00:13:18] she was looking to buy a home and she'd found a property and she said it's radar registered and I don't need to worry at all. And somewhere that conversation in her really brings out
[00:13:29] that people kind of think a Rira registration is going to solve every problem to do with their house. And I think that's really, you know, an area to focus on that what does this trust
[00:13:42] really mean? What should it mean? And I think that then brings us to the question of how aware are consumers and how aware are they not just in terms of water radar registration means, but also how aware our customers across the country. And you know, that's maybe something
[00:14:02] to spend a little bit of time on and let's start with, you know, overall awareness parkervy. I think the first thing is really that people in larger cities are much more aware of radar
[00:14:15] registration compared to smaller towns. So that's the first thing. The second thing is people who are buying bigger ticket homes, you know, 10 lakhs and above, much more aware than people who are buying
[00:14:27] smaller homes. The third thing is, and that's really what I was speaking about, is the depth of awareness, that mostly people say radar registration means I have somebody who's going to protect me,
[00:14:41] give me timely completion of my project and if something goes wrong, I will be protected. That's really what people seem to be kind of thinking of for a radar registration. I argue that therefore
[00:14:54] investing our energies, I mean as a country, to really increase both the width of awareness as well as the depth of awareness can really be useful. If more people were aware that what exactly
[00:15:09] does radar registration mean, what information can you access on a radar website that will help you keep better track of your project? Are you aware that only a certain amount 10% can be taken
[00:15:21] as advanced payment? Are you aware that for, you know, changes of a certain kind in the project, approvals are required from people who have invested in the project? So, in a sense really expanding
[00:15:34] the width and depth of awareness I feel can really pay rich dividends so that the implied trust that consumers have can actually become a much more informed trust in their purchase journey. That's an excellent point. It's a completely agree with you. Vera registration has great
[00:15:56] signaling value, but what does it really mean? And do consumers really even know what it means to be radar registered? So, it's like saying that if something is certified by a you know,
[00:16:06] quality control agency I just believe it to be safer and that may be true of food products and you know where actual quality control is undertaken by the regulator. But what about something like a radar registration where it's more disclosure oriented rather than quality controls and
[00:16:23] quality checks, right? So, one part of it is what Shilpa brings out which is that consumers must be aware what does it exactly mean to buy property in a radar registered project. But then that
[00:16:34] brings me to another one which is a consumer as I am assuming also believe that if something goes wrong somehow the real estate regulatory authority will protect them either by penalizing the developer or
[00:16:44] that they will have a place to go and complain to. And that brings me to the question of enforcement which is that you know do we really see that once the law has been written on the books? Do
[00:16:56] you find that some states are consciously building enforcement capacity in the real estate a regulatory authorities versus others and other interesting opportunities for learning across states that either of you all have seen. Need to Shilpa any if you want to take this question please go ahead.
[00:17:14] Thanks let me start and then you know I'll request Shilpa to try and look I think one of the things we don't realize is that you know while radar was launched in 2016 different states are at very
[00:17:29] different stages of evolution when it comes to radar right today. I know you mentioned from the report we know that 26 states have a basic radar setup which means that they have you know a radar body
[00:17:43] most of them have an appellate tribunals setup and then they are working towards setting up a ported right that's what it means. Now if you see you know use book a poor may I think
[00:17:54] Karashra is a greetings apple because they started much earlier in the journey and they have been very consciously and actively doing certain things about it there are states which started much later in the journey I have a big example of himarchal provision a very small state has compared
[00:18:09] to Maharashtra but you know again there is a lot of effort being put into making the HP radar you know stand out they've actually got a few technology consultants to get their dashboards
[00:18:21] and their their website up and running. So I do think that you know different states are at different stages of evolution when it comes to radar certainly there is a lot to learn from one another
[00:18:34] let me take examples of what you know some of the states are getting right I think you know MP if I is focusing a lot on digital right it is introducing interactive power behind dashboard
[00:18:45] with all the project details it is it aspires to be something very close to what a Dubai has done with the rest app right where you have all the real estate transactions you know units sold
[00:18:57] unit books booked the average rate all available on an app and that's that I think is a very forward looking initiative. Good job for example has announced a launch of an investment map
[00:19:09] in the top 10 cities right which with where projects can be categorized and they need link to help investors make an informed decision so it's a very you know it's like simplified investment
[00:19:20] to real estate an order you had to go and scout for an and then figure out what is right what is wrong. Maharashtra is great in terms of you know you mentioned grievance radar so it's still continues
[00:19:29] to be the biggest dissatisfired for everybody who's entering into a real estate transaction they introduce something called as a consideration or a dispute settlement forum what it means is it's just a body before you can officially take five a complaint it allows for you know let's say
[00:19:49] a dispute settlement and you will not believe they have a success rate of over 70% it's just about people sitting across the table are talking you know if I if I trivializes it's just you know what
[00:20:00] diverse it I go on a journey try to do before taking into the court right now that can you get into an amicable settlement you be ready for example has developed a framework for a grading of
[00:20:10] projects again you know so that developers performance of developers and projects can be assessed which will help the financial institutions which will help investors so I think there are and you know
[00:20:20] I can go on about different states doing different things I think there is a lot of great work that the states have now started to do but I still think we are far from where we can be you know if
[00:20:33] I look at a bar A and A if I look at it to buy both are create examples of what a body like re-rocket do you know it can actually behave like a noodle point of all information which is
[00:20:44] they're trying to be but also proactively you know facilitate investments in the sector and solve for the biggest problem which is bewants to address today I'll give you mentioned that you know people believe that if they're buying the radar is still property if something goes wrong
[00:21:00] you know the problem so be solved by radar unfortunately is radar doesn't have judicial powers so radar cannot give a dick that it can only take the case and to the appellate tribunal right
[00:21:12] it can then further recommend the case to the court so people do have a place to pour in their grievances but it cannot be addressed at that level and rightfully so right you don't have many
[00:21:25] judicial bodies in the country so that's really the part of radar I think states have a lot to learn from each other you know central bodies like there is eye for radar which is all India forum
[00:21:37] for state radar so meet and can be they can be a normal body who can also help pull together states to learn from each other the states themselves can you know meet once in a violent shareback
[00:21:50] best practices with each other a lot of them are doing a lot of great work and you know I think yes a lot of states who are you know far behind in the journey can benefit from the ones which
[00:22:01] are far ahead yeah if I'm a chime in here Bargogi because you post you know two very interesting questions one is in a sense what can we do better and then of course the million dollar grievance
[00:22:14] to address the question on the first one what can we do better you know I somehow see a customer journey as as you know first awareness then maybe knowledge and then really acting on that knowledge
[00:22:29] and I think you know to begin with like we all said the radar mark on all billboards shows that customers are actually putting some degree of trust in that symbol but maybe the you know next step
[00:22:43] really and it's not such a difficult step is if customers can access the enormous knowledge that radar's collect about projects I mean they they collect almost more than 100 parameters for registered projects and they have this in their databases so so the very first step is maybe
[00:23:05] encouraging consumers to visit the website making it easy for consumers to navigate the website and access information and in a sense you know be more informed in their journey I think that's an
[00:23:19] important first step and in my mind it's it's technology and therefore can be done fairly simply the interesting thing though Bargogi is what this you know report showed us is that only 14% of respondents actually visited radar websites and that's quite intriguing because you know it is your
[00:23:38] biggest asset it is very dear to you there is a lot of information available about it and yet very few people are accessing that information and keeping track of the projects rollout
[00:23:51] and maybe one reason for that is when you look at you know the dissatisfaction rate which was fairly high almost 76% of those who visited radar websites actually felt that the website was you
[00:24:06] it was difficult to log in the websites were sometimes not functional or the breadth of information was not available and you know in a sense difficult to navigate and I think at a time when we can
[00:24:18] do so much digitally and with such digital ease whether it's buying groceries booking tickets even booking your vaccine you know it's really to my mind an easy win to really improve the quality
[00:24:32] of websites and and the whole user interface and user experience for websites so that's one thought but moving to the second question you posed can't agree with you more you know and and and that's
[00:24:46] again really I would say at the heart of the issue that the customer is saying when things go wrong depend on radar to solve it for me and if we were to kind of break this up into two parts
[00:25:00] one do consumers go to radar when things go wrong and I think this report overwhelmingly points to the fact that five out of six people actually feel comfortable to go to radar and I think that's
[00:25:13] an enormous statement because what it says is that the real estate consumer now heads to the radar forum when things go wrong over codes or over other means open to them and I think therefore
[00:25:28] it's really a big opportunity for the whole radar ecosystem to use the fact that consumers trust radar a go to radar when there's a problem to actually in a sense you know help with things remaining on course and therefore delivering maybe speedier resolution to these grievance
[00:25:51] addresses and of course transparency in terms of like maybe sharing information on how such grievances are handled could be one way of you know thinking about it the other is experiments which need to spoke about like conciliation which are actually you know helping to get
[00:26:12] consumers developers and radar all altogether to reach conclusion and to reach resolution now let me pause here it's very hard to disagree with anything that both of you have said but I just
[00:26:25] want to add one thing you know on shelf-hours point regarding websites I think it's become a bit of a joke right that India is the land of engineers but our government websites are sort of the
[00:26:35] weakest both in terms of interface a lag time you know sometimes you know the frequency with which they're operational the frequency with which layouts are advised so that the data that you want
[00:26:47] is not at the place that it is and I don't want to go into a tired yet because I'm a researcher and I keep using these websites all the time and I know the levels of frustration that even a
[00:26:56] person who's invested in that topic has with the websites so I can totally imagine a casual consumer who is actually just looking for one piece of information which is that what is the progress
[00:27:07] of the real estate project in which he has invested right and the chances that he will hang on and keep going back to the website because it doesn't work or he can't really understand it
[00:27:18] are extremely low so completely with you on that shelf-hours that we can actually make things much easier for consumers to be better aware and this takes me a concept that I can't but think of right now is the land record services index right which is another initiative that
[00:27:35] I think Omedia has supported so just to give the listeners we've we've hosted an episode previously on this but in short what does this index do? it compares the quality of digitization of land
[00:27:46] across states on various parameters and assign scores to states will it make the consumers better aware? no maybe not but can we actually compare Raida which is what I think this report partly does can we compare the capacity of real estate regulatory authorities across states?
[00:28:07] it's such that we can assign scores and we sort of you know push this spirit of competitive federalism which incentivizes each state to invest more in building capacity within its regulator. I think it's a doable idea. I think whether we like it or not that's what the world's
[00:28:24] bank is doing business actually try to do it's what the land record services index which is hosted by the NCR is trying to do so I thought you know the point about who website it's
[00:28:36] actually took me back to that and it also takes me back to the question of you know that at the fact that these websites are not so viewer friendly or consumer friendly actually makes
[00:28:47] a case for an aggregator platform. I mean at Steshay as it sounds it seems like aggregator platforms are some of the ways in which you can sort to go around this problem where business that's actually invested in making information access easier actually aggregates the information on this
[00:29:02] website and gives makes it easier for the consumer to access information right? so that is a thought that I had but who knows that also actually you know the point about five out of six consumers
[00:29:16] actually trust Rera enough to go to them in case they see dispute with the developer and that brings me to need those point which is that what will Rera do okay like you mentioned there are two choices
[00:29:28] Rera I mean either pull up the developer and penalize the developer because Rera can't actually solve a problem between the consumer and the developer and penalizing the developer doesn't really help the consumer because actually you know that's not going to get him the house that he wants
[00:29:43] some time or so on and so forth so this takes me back again I'm to step into his screen just you know the history of development of regulators in India which is think about us
[00:29:54] any I think about RBI right and today I mean rightly or only any consumer who has a grievance against a broker or against an issuer who hasn't paid interest on his bonds I mean said me and RBI
[00:30:08] are tagged all the time on social media where consumers want to voice their grievance and social media right your only has become some sort of a tool of consumer grievance redress so many and when you consistently tag a particular issuer or a particular broker the regulators
[00:30:25] likely to pick it up and actually hopefully if it has the capacity begin investigation and the existence and the threat of that itself disincentivises the regulated entity from giving grief towards consumers so I agree I mean we have to see how capacity develops over time but
[00:30:41] there are some really easy low-hanging fruit like Shrupa mentioned which is you know create an index compare the regulatory authority see how they rank them how they're doing well viso vis each other
[00:30:52] on things like consumer access go information ease of access go information enforcement and so on and so forth before we conclude you know I since this podcast is called land of a billion I have to ask this
[00:31:04] question that if you had to pick one core challenge but India needs to focus on for securing land rights for its billion plus population what would you put your way to behind what is that one
[00:31:15] core challenge that you would choose to tackle let's begin with Nitu thanks I think you know yeah we've spoken enough it's tough to pick but I would say my biggest bet would be on driving
[00:31:27] consumer awareness and education on radar because I believe if everybody knows about it social media is a great platform they can also officially go do the appellate tribunals I think if enough people
[00:31:40] know what their rights are you know how much money do they need to put as an upfront payment what is the status that they need to demand from the developer and if he or she doesn't abide by that you
[00:31:50] know what other options available for them if everybody knows it I think there'll be a way for developers to you know self correct so I would place my big bet on consumer awareness and education
[00:32:01] and that's the actual power what do you have to say what's that one core challenge but we I think you know when every Indian feels secure about buying a home or their land
[00:32:15] and also feels comfortable that if they ever need to you know transact on it it can be done easily and smoothly I think that's when you know we can really feel happy about the land land
[00:32:28] for billion yeah but that's got many elements to it right so I mean I agree with you that we have to enhance confidence in consumers but there up there's the part about title there's the part
[00:32:39] about developer performance of obligations there's tenures security another area that I know is of interest to you so if I have to tangibly identify one challenge where do you think we should work on
[00:32:52] yeah it's you know like it's hard yeah in a sense all of them are going because you know it really takes all of them to you know reach where we want to go but I guess if you were to really pin
[00:33:04] me down I would say it's feeling secure that when you know this is yours you've paid money for it it is truly yours and feeling secure about that I think to me it's that security
[00:33:17] got it okay so great talking to both of you and I hope that our listeners enjoy this podcast thanks for the opportunity great being here part of the week thanks for tuning into our podcast land of a billion produced in association with the property
[00:33:38] rights research consortium don't forget to catch new episodes every alternate Friday where I will bring you a rundown on the latest church around land and housing in India thanks for listening log on to the quince website and check out our other podcast