How Climate Change Can be Fought With Secure Property Rights

[00:00:00] Welcome to Season 2 of the Quinn Spot Nightly Podcast, Land of a Billion.

[00:00:21] We aim to bring you expert conversations about the most contentious of the holy Roti-Khapra

[00:00:27] Makhan Trinity, that is, the Makhan over our heads and the larger ecosystem that governs

[00:00:32] it.

[00:00:33] The podcast is produced in association with the Property Rights Research Consortium, supported

[00:00:38] by Omidya Network India.

[00:00:40] I am Bhargavi, a researcher interested in land and access to finance and your host for

[00:00:45] this season.

[00:00:49] A key idea in economics is the tragedy of the commons, that is, a resource that is owned

[00:00:58] by everybody is owned by nobody or in other words, nobody has the incentive to preserve

[00:01:03] it.

[00:01:04] The most common example given to explain this concept is that of a pasture land that belongs

[00:01:09] to many cattle owners and each cattle owner ends up overgrazing his cattle because the

[00:01:14] benefits of overgrazing are internalized by him but the costs are borne by all the

[00:01:18] owners.

[00:01:19] Now, for regular listeners of this podcast, you know what I am talking about.

[00:01:23] Throughout this season, we have explored issues relating to property rights in India,

[00:01:28] whether it be better information systems for recording existing titles or formalizing

[00:01:33] existing titles, conferring new titles and so on.

[00:01:36] Now, how do these discussions feed into a near existential question that arguably stares

[00:01:41] humanity in its face today?

[00:01:44] That of climate change.

[00:01:45] What is the connection between property rights and climate change?

[00:01:48] Are property rights the problem or the solution?

[00:01:51] To break these connections down, I have with me Rachel Mechmonagal who is a climate

[00:01:56] justice and land rights advocate.

[00:01:58] She currently leads the Climate Change and Land and Your Program at Landesa,

[00:02:01] a non-profit working in the field of land rights in several countries.

[00:02:05] I also have with me Krithika Ravi Shankar, co-founder of Farmers for Forests, an Indian

[00:02:10] non-profit dedicated to revolutionizing India's forestry sector, creating green jobs

[00:02:14] and protecting fragile ecosystems.

[00:02:17] But before we get started on our conversation with Rachel and Krithika, I want to bring

[00:02:21] you some voices from the ground.

[00:02:23] These are the voices of three farmers from Harashtra whose integral relationship

[00:02:27] with land makes them some of the leading voices on understanding climate change.

[00:02:31] We ask them to share their experiences on climate change and its impact on their

[00:02:35] lives and livelihoods.

[00:02:36] And here's what they had to say.

[00:02:44] Due to sudden changes in the climate, cash drops which are important to farmers

[00:02:49] are getting affected.

[00:02:50] Both the farming seasons are getting affected.

[00:02:52] Because of this, there's financial burden on the farmers and bank loans to repay

[00:02:57] and farmers are unable to fulfill whatever plans they have.

[00:03:00] As a result, farmers are under financial and mental distress.

[00:03:05] As a solution, agriculture universities and NGOs working in the field of agriculture should

[00:03:10] help farmers with the information, technology and help provide reliable weather updates.

[00:03:22] Today we are seeing the effects of climate change that has been happening over a long

[00:03:25] period of time.

[00:03:27] As we can see, there's a crisis looming over the farmers with heavy rainfall causing

[00:03:31] huge damage to the crops.

[00:03:33] Also due to climate change, there has been an increase in crop diseases and I'm

[00:03:38] experiencing this myself.

[00:03:40] I have planted onions in my field but due to persistent climate change, the incidence

[00:03:44] of diseases on onion crops is increasing so we have to do something about this crisis.

[00:03:50] And to maintain the balance of nature, we must cultivate more trees.

[00:03:54] Maximum number of trees should be planted without cutting them down.

[00:03:57] We should ensure that we do not do anything that will harm nature.

[00:04:01] We could do this by avoiding the use of plastic, maximising the use of solar energy and protecting

[00:04:06] our natural wealth such as rivers and lakes.

[00:04:16] The most important thing is that agricultural crops are getting affected in every season.

[00:04:21] Even after working hard, farmers are not getting the expected yield or profits from

[00:04:26] the farm.

[00:04:27] Due to climate change, crops are getting affected.

[00:04:30] Sometimes it's due to less rain and at times it's due to heavy rains.

[00:04:34] During periods of less rain, crops dry out and during heavy rains, crops which are ready

[00:04:40] for harvest gets washed away in floods.

[00:04:43] Due to sudden cold, the mango flowers fall off and it impacts all other fruiting trees.

[00:04:49] Similarly, extreme heat is also affecting human and plant life.

[00:04:54] Personally, to mitigate the effects of climate change, firstly, I planted a lot of trees around

[00:04:59] my house and also on the boundaries of the farm.

[00:05:02] As a result of this, the extent of carbon emission will go down and will help increase oxygen,

[00:05:08] decrease soil erosion and will also increase the population of essential and beneficial

[00:05:13] microbes in the soil.

[00:05:15] This will increase the yield of crops.

[00:05:18] Human life has one obligation – maintain the balance of nature and plant and care

[00:05:22] for as many trees as possible.

[00:05:26] In the order we heard, the voices were that of Bharat Dhavale, Anil Valnuch and Nanabhao

[00:05:31] Mangde from Maharashtra.

[00:05:33] Their experiences gives us a glimpse into the range of climate change impacts on people,

[00:05:38] particularly farmers across the world.

[00:05:41] This leads us to today's conversation where we look at the connection between land,

[00:05:45] property rights and climate change.

[00:05:47] Welcome, Rishal and Krutika to the land of a billion podcasts.

[00:05:50] Thank you for having me.

[00:05:52] Thanks for having me.

[00:05:56] Okay, so you know, I want to jump straight to the meat of the matter, which is that why

[00:06:02] do we care about land tenure or why do we care about property rights and land rights

[00:06:07] in the context of climate change?

[00:06:10] How can it be used as a climate change adaptation strategy, especially in emerging economies?

[00:06:15] Rishal, would you like to take this question?

[00:06:18] Sure.

[00:06:19] So, a bit of background on Landesa might be helpful.

[00:06:22] Landesa has been working for over 50 years at this point using land rights as a tool for

[00:06:28] poverty reduction.

[00:06:30] So this is really built on the idea that when you secure land rights for individuals and

[00:06:34] communities, you're really securing their access to land, which is often the foundation

[00:06:39] for food security, their shelter, often their safety, livelihoods, incomes.

[00:06:45] It unlocks this huge realm of possibilities for communities to feel more secure in their

[00:06:51] access to tools to their well-being.

[00:06:54] And over the past few years, we've been exploring land tenure as really a foundation for effective

[00:06:59] climate action.

[00:07:01] This is built around the idea that if we want people to be managing their land more sustainably,

[00:07:07] they really need to have an incentive structure that can support that.

[00:07:10] So they need to have that long-term vision that the activities and the investments

[00:07:15] that they make now in their land will play out for them in the future.

[00:07:21] So these examples could be tree planting for a household that doesn't have secure rights

[00:07:27] to their land and has fear that they might be driven off of it or not be working

[00:07:33] the same plot of land.

[00:07:34] There's really no incentive to invest in trees that are going to take many years

[00:07:39] to bear fruit and really benefit the household itself.

[00:07:44] So it could be tree planting, it could be climate smart agriculture techniques, it could

[00:07:48] be thoughtful fertilizer use.

[00:07:51] But really working with communities to support them and having this long-term vision can

[00:07:55] really support sustainable land management, which both benefits the households themselves

[00:08:01] in securing their livelihoods and food security, but it often also benefits the entire globe

[00:08:07] in supporting climate mitigation.

[00:08:10] So often these sustainable land management techniques are also climate mitigation techniques

[00:08:15] in storing carbon and sequestering it from the environment.

[00:08:18] God, if that makes sense to me, and you know, it relates back to one of the most fundamental

[00:08:25] I guess notions of economics, right?

[00:08:27] Which is the problem of the tragedy of the commons, which is that, I mean, it's

[00:08:33] an old concept, many people are probably familiar with it.

[00:08:36] But the idea that where a resource is meant for common use for everybody, it is likely

[00:08:41] to get depleted faster.

[00:08:43] It is likely to get overused.

[00:08:45] On the other hand, when you actually define property rights better, people are incentivized

[00:08:50] to use it and preserve it for a longer period of time.

[00:08:53] So it just makes sense to me that if I know that I have access to my land and

[00:09:01] that nobody can take it away from me, I'm more likely to take a more precocious approach

[00:09:08] towards using it.

[00:09:10] So now one thing is to say that defining property rights better and getting better land tenure

[00:09:17] will actually incentivize people to managing their land and resources more carefully.

[00:09:25] But what about the existing situation?

[00:09:27] Which is that we are already probably in the midst of climate change period.

[00:09:33] And how do we use land tenure and how do we use community ownership to deal with the

[00:09:39] consequences of it?

[00:09:40] So in that context, Krithika, I mean, you founded Farmers for Forest at the age of 30.

[00:09:46] What was the motivation and how do you think it helps with climate adaptation?

[00:09:51] So I think that's a great question, Bhargavi.

[00:09:55] Like Rachel was saying, so secure land rights are basically at the foundation of everything.

[00:10:02] But what we also realized is that once communities have secure land rights, there's also additional

[00:10:09] support that's needed for them in terms of knowing how to really leverage this land

[00:10:15] well.

[00:10:16] So when we founded Farmers for Forest, the problem that we were really trying to

[00:10:21] target is the financial drivers for deforestation.

[00:10:25] So why does say a family has trees on their land?

[00:10:30] They have land rights.

[00:10:31] Why are they cutting down the trees?

[00:10:34] And in most cases, what we realized is that those drivers were financial.

[00:10:38] So there's a wedding in the household or they want to sell the soil on that land

[00:10:44] for highway construction work or there's a medical emergency.

[00:10:49] Essentially what we realized is that in addition to the really large causes of deforestation,

[00:10:58] which is mining or infrastructure development, there are also all of these smaller causes

[00:11:03] which are slowly tripping away at Forest.

[00:11:07] But they are not really being addressed.

[00:11:09] So we wanted to work on, of course, preventing deforestation and then we also wanted

[00:11:14] to work on the other side of the coin, which is at the same time you have in some of the

[00:11:20] areas that we're working, we have a lot of land that because of years of unsustainable

[00:11:26] agricultural practices is now so degraded that farmers don't want to cultivate it

[00:11:32] anymore because they feel like it's just too much of an investment without enough

[00:11:37] of a return.

[00:11:38] And then you also have in the recent years rainfall has become so erratic that

[00:11:44] farmers were just not very sure of what they would get if they even cultivated this land.

[00:11:51] So you have this case where they have an asset that was previously a valuable asset,

[00:11:56] but now because of land degradation and sustainable fertilizer use, it's lying unused.

[00:12:03] So we essentially wanted to solve for both of these problems.

[00:12:07] And when we were looking at the literature around the world,

[00:12:11] we thought that payments for ecosystem services, which is essentially paying people

[00:12:16] to conserve forests or paying people to protect forests could have very promising results.

[00:12:22] So in the most recent case, we've seen Costa Rica use it pretty effectively.

[00:12:27] So that was sort of the idea behind which we wanted to start the organization

[00:12:32] because what we also realized is that in India, forests were generally seen as

[00:12:37] something that is under the purview of the government.

[00:12:41] So the private sector or civil society are not for profits.

[00:12:45] They've generally had a sort of hands off approach from this sector.

[00:12:50] And we really wanted to change that.

[00:12:53] Got it.

[00:12:54] So you mentioned that there are similar models that you have seen around the world,

[00:12:59] which is to pay to conserve forests.

[00:13:02] And I believe that there are some policies in the US as well where the government

[00:13:08] actually pays people living on the boundaries of forests to not cultivate their land.

[00:13:13] Rachel, what is your experience?

[00:13:15] What models have you seen around the world where people are actually paid to not deforest?

[00:13:23] There are quite a few models of communities both relying on payments

[00:13:27] for ecosystem services or perhaps engaging in the carbon market

[00:13:31] to gain financial support for the stewardship that they're already doing.

[00:13:36] I think another interesting model that Landasa often operates under

[00:13:41] is trying to find interventions that benefit both the community's livelihoods

[00:13:46] and also environmental sustainability at the same time.

[00:13:50] And I think creating this incentive structure and this foundation

[00:13:55] to incentivize environmental work is a really it's a strategic move.

[00:14:01] Effective balance, yeah.

[00:14:02] Yeah, effective balance is what came to mind.

[00:14:05] Yeah, I think linking livelihoods and environmental sustainability

[00:14:10] is a smart strategy to ensure that longevity in the event

[00:14:14] that climate finance would would run out.

[00:14:16] So an example of that is our work in the Bay of Bengal,

[00:14:20] where Landasa has been working for years with coastal communities

[00:14:23] that live in mangrove forests.

[00:14:25] And we've been supporting these communities through the process

[00:14:28] of receiving community forest certificates.

[00:14:31] So these are government recognized land use rights

[00:14:35] for a collective group of people and the outcomes are so powerful.

[00:14:39] You have protection of these mangrove forests

[00:14:43] and the communities themselves from corporate interests.

[00:14:45] So if there's shrimping companies or palm oil interests trying to come in

[00:14:52] and degrade some of these mangrove forests,

[00:14:55] communities now have rights and a defense against this intrusion.

[00:15:01] There's reduced conflict between neighboring communities

[00:15:04] because there are clearly delineated borders between the communities.

[00:15:08] And as as Krutika was talking about,

[00:15:10] there's also access in addition to payment for ecosystem services.

[00:15:14] There's access to other government resources like tree saplings,

[00:15:18] different reforestation programs, maybe agricultural extension services

[00:15:24] that these land rights connect them to these greater services.

[00:15:28] So what we're seeing is reforestation, aforestation of mangroves.

[00:15:33] And the really cool thing there is that mangroves are such a strong carbon sink.

[00:15:37] And so we're having climate mitigation of greater sequestration of carbon

[00:15:43] and really a protection of this existing carbon sink

[00:15:46] in addition to the climate adaptation benefits of preserving and restoring mangroves.

[00:15:53] So the mangroves are along these coasts and can really provide protection

[00:15:58] for communities inland agriculture.

[00:16:01] We're seeing increased storms from climate change,

[00:16:04] this storm surge coming in and can have really damaging effects

[00:16:08] on both the infrastructure and the farmland inland.

[00:16:13] And so to have sort of a wave break there is a really powerful climate

[00:16:18] adaptation strategy, both on a food security front,

[00:16:21] but also a livelihood and income front for the different crops that are being grown

[00:16:26] or different products that can be sold at market.

[00:16:29] And then beyond the communities, it's really reducing the pressure

[00:16:32] from perhaps the forest department or different government officials

[00:16:36] who are already limited in their capacity to monitor the forests

[00:16:41] and really survey this land by sort of passing off that power

[00:16:46] to these communities and securing their rights that they have deserved for generations.

[00:16:53] It takes the pressure off of these government officials for monitoring this land

[00:16:57] and really allows the community to step up and defend the land that's rightfully theirs.

[00:17:02] That's right.

[00:17:03] So it seems to me that, you know, if we were to classify all interventions

[00:17:07] with respect to climate change, right?

[00:17:10] You could broadly bucket them into three categories.

[00:17:13] One is the local level interventions of the kind that Rachel and Krutika just described,

[00:17:18] which is that you assist to incentivize local communities

[00:17:21] to make sure that the land that they use and that they are not forced to rather

[00:17:29] adopt deforestation and have enough incentives to preserve the resources

[00:17:33] and adopt better land resource management practices.

[00:17:37] The second is where you have the state coming down from the, you know,

[00:17:42] from the top and imposing penalties and imposing restrictions

[00:17:48] on what communities can and cannot do with the land that has belonged to them for generations.

[00:17:53] And the third is of the kind that we just saw, right?

[00:17:56] The Glasgow COP26 conference, which is where internationally efforts

[00:18:05] are decided upon countries resolve to take certain initiatives

[00:18:08] to make sure that their countries have lower emissions, etc.

[00:18:13] And my question is that which of these strategies in your opinion actually works better?

[00:18:19] So I know this is off the bat, but if any of you want to take this question,

[00:18:25] go for it.

[00:18:26] Do you think localized interventions are better than global interventions?

[00:18:31] Do you think national level interventions are more effective?

[00:18:34] What's your view been on the field?

[00:18:36] So what do you think communities respond to the most?

[00:18:39] So I think we actually need all levels of interventions in order to address

[00:18:47] this problem effectively, because it's such a large problem

[00:18:51] and it's happening everywhere in the world.

[00:18:54] So I think fine tuning the interventions to that particular context

[00:19:00] can sometimes make a big difference, because, for example,

[00:19:03] if there is legislation at the global level or at the national level,

[00:19:08] that kind of directs finance and attention, which can then be used

[00:19:13] to kind of mobilize communities at the local level.

[00:19:17] So and at the same time, if you have communities that are at the local level

[00:19:22] aware, like one of the communities that we work with in Gatsiroli,

[00:19:28] they ran this huge campaign to kind of lobby for their community forestry rights

[00:19:34] and that ended up putting pressure or setting a model for the rest

[00:19:39] of the country to kind of follow.

[00:19:42] So sometimes even the local interventions can actually lead

[00:19:47] to change at the national and the global level.

[00:19:50] So I think personally, I think it has to be a mix of all of these things.

[00:19:55] I completely agree, Krutika, and I think that was very well said.

[00:20:00] You know, unfortunately, climate change is not bounded by our political boundaries.

[00:20:05] And so we're often seeing national policies that are very powerful

[00:20:09] in a very limited context.

[00:20:11] And then the neighboring countries are not necessarily following

[00:20:15] those audacious goals and the pollution and the greenhouse gas

[00:20:20] emissions are affecting the whole world over.

[00:20:23] So it's certainly not the climate crisis is not something that can be taken on

[00:20:29] by an individual country with individual policies or a local community.

[00:20:34] I think also, you know, while imperfect, these global agreements

[00:20:39] and international commitments also start chipping away at the climate justice

[00:20:44] question where you have some countries, particularly the US,

[00:20:48] which I will speak to as someone from there, on a per capita basis.

[00:20:54] The emissions are really, really high compared to largely the rest of the world.

[00:21:00] And I think when we're seeing other countries bearing the brunt

[00:21:04] of the negative impacts of climate change caused largely by the lifestyles

[00:21:09] and emissions that are happening in other parts of the world,

[00:21:13] it really raises questions around climate finance and coming together

[00:21:18] as a global community to take responsibility for the way that individual

[00:21:23] countries actions or choices not to act are having a really disproportionate

[00:21:28] impact on other communities and other countries that have not contributed

[00:21:32] to the climate crisis at the same level.

[00:21:35] So I think completely agree that all three levels are critical

[00:21:40] in building solutions and that the conversations at the global level

[00:21:45] are at least starting to engage in this climate justice conversation

[00:21:49] and recognize the mobilization of finance that will be needed

[00:21:53] to undo some of the injustices that have been done.

[00:21:58] Right. So I'm assuming your views on the Glasgow Leaders Declaration

[00:22:02] on Forests and Land Use, the COP26 conference that just happened recently

[00:22:08] that they will that it will have a positive impact

[00:22:12] on how countries look at land resource management.

[00:22:15] Yes, I think I think it's imperfect, but it's it's a start

[00:22:20] and I'm cautiously optimistic.

[00:22:22] I think the deforestation pledge in particular is a massive commitment

[00:22:27] that's really exciting with over 140 countries pledging to halt

[00:22:32] and reverse deforestation by 2030.

[00:22:34] That's just a massive commitment made by so many countries together

[00:22:39] is really powerful.

[00:22:41] Also, having these discussions around forestry and climate smart agriculture

[00:22:45] as essential pieces of the climate mitigation puzzle

[00:22:49] is also exciting because so often the land use sector

[00:22:53] is left out of these conversations.

[00:22:55] I think what's most interesting about this pact

[00:23:00] is is finally seeing this explicit emphasis on the role of indigenous

[00:23:04] peoples in local communities as key climate actors

[00:23:08] and the need to listen and support them.

[00:23:11] It's amazing to see one point seven billion dollars committed

[00:23:15] to supporting indigenous peoples in this effort

[00:23:18] that said the money has historically failed to reach these indigenous communities.

[00:23:22] So I think we're at a point where only time will tell if this recognition

[00:23:27] of indigenous peoples in the text is truly a turning point

[00:23:31] for investment in climate finance for indigenous rights.

[00:23:35] So I think as we wait to see how that funding is delivered,

[00:23:38] securing land rights for these indigenous peoples is such an obvious step

[00:23:42] to ensuring that these actors remain in a place of power

[00:23:46] and decision making over their own land.

[00:23:48] Inclusion of these stakeholders is a critical shortcoming

[00:23:52] of many decisions like the Glasgow pact

[00:23:54] and ensuring that these resources that have been committed

[00:23:57] ultimately reach indigenous peoples and that they are included

[00:24:01] in the design of the implementation plans will be a powerful step

[00:24:05] in reaching the goals set out in the pact.

[00:24:07] India did not sign the Glasgow Declaration and I'm wondering,

[00:24:12] I mean, how do we bridge these gaps in the way

[00:24:15] we look at land, land rights and land use in India?

[00:24:18] Kritika, what have you seen on the field?

[00:24:20] What have you seen amongst policymakers?

[00:24:23] Do they really see the connection between land rights, land use

[00:24:26] and climate change or we need to do more on this one?

[00:24:31] So I think this point also goes back to a little bit

[00:24:35] what Rachel was talking about, which is how climate change

[00:24:39] is a global injustice in the sense that countries like India

[00:24:44] that have fairly low per capita carbon emissions

[00:24:47] or that have historically had very low carbon emissions

[00:24:52] are actually going to be countries that are some of the worst

[00:24:56] affected by climate change.

[00:24:58] I mean, India in particular because of our tropical location

[00:25:03] because of the fact that we have such a long coastline,

[00:25:07] we're really going to be bearing a lot of the sort of brunt

[00:25:11] of climate change in the in the next few years.

[00:25:14] So while I understand this and I also, you know, see India's

[00:25:19] point that trade should be decoupled from the Glasgow Declaration

[00:25:24] and that's why they didn't want to sign it.

[00:25:26] But at the same time, I think for us as a country,

[00:25:30] you know, given the extent like the size of our population

[00:25:35] and the fact that, you know, soils in the country are

[00:25:39] depleting fast. We have groundwater depleting.

[00:25:43] I think taking very progressive, decisive and immediate

[00:25:47] climate action is extremely necessary so that involves,

[00:25:51] you know, halting deforestation, investing in restoring degraded

[00:25:56] lands either through deforestation or through, you know,

[00:26:00] more sustainable methods of agriculture that involve,

[00:26:06] you know, cultivating a more sort of biodiverse set of crops,

[00:26:10] intermingling crops with trees.

[00:26:13] So I think all of these things are are going to be

[00:26:17] absolutely critical as we grapple with problems like food

[00:26:22] security or, you know, as we face more and more extreme

[00:26:26] weather events like cyclones or floods like we've been seeing

[00:26:30] in the last few years.

[00:26:32] So I think that, you know, that we need to take action against

[00:26:37] this is, I mean, there's absolutely no doubt about that.

[00:26:40] But what that action will be in the form of whether it's

[00:26:44] signing international agreements or mobilizing even more

[00:26:49] government finance towards these causes or mobilizing more

[00:26:53] community efforts, I think it has to be a mix of all of these.

[00:26:58] But without a, you know, without a doubt we need to take as a

[00:27:02] country, we really need to take very progressive, decisive

[00:27:07] and immediate action to address all of these issues.

[00:27:11] Right. You know, since you mentioned government finance

[00:27:14] and mobilizing government finance towards, you know,

[00:27:17] setting in place, let's just call it the right incentive

[00:27:20] system for land resource management.

[00:27:22] Right. One thing that occurred to me is it is true that

[00:27:25] communities are bearing the brunt of climate change, but

[00:27:29] it is equally true that the government is not actually

[00:27:32] bearing any brunt of climate change because it seems to

[00:27:34] me that we have in place since many years subsidies

[00:27:39] that incentivize the exact wrong thing for effective

[00:27:43] land resource management.

[00:27:44] Right. So whether it is subsidies for fishing, which leads

[00:27:48] to fishing, whether it is subsidies for, you know,

[00:27:51] cultivating crops that are guaranteed to be purchased by

[00:27:55] the government, I mean, I think reversing even some of these,

[00:28:02] you know, subsidies before putting in more funds into what

[00:28:06] the, you know, what the government believes is the

[00:28:08] right strategy for land resource management may

[00:28:13] actually do us some good.

[00:28:14] It may be a good point to good starting point to begin with,

[00:28:18] but on that note, you know, we're running out of time.

[00:28:22] So I'm just going to ask the last final question of the

[00:28:25] last final episode of this season.

[00:28:28] Since this podcast is called land of a billion, Pruthika

[00:28:31] Rachel, if you had to pick one problem that you would

[00:28:34] put your weight behind to secure land rights for

[00:28:38] a billion plus population, what would that cause be?

[00:28:42] Let's begin with Rachel.

[00:28:44] My answer would be securing land rights for women.

[00:28:48] It's such a simple yet super complex intervention of

[00:28:53] challenging social norms and identity and gender roles.

[00:28:57] I would say this for India, but also many, many countries

[00:29:01] across the world.

[00:29:03] It's it's such a powerful solution, both on the gender

[00:29:07] equality front and also on the climate resilience front.

[00:29:12] Across the world, women are not seen often as equal

[00:29:15] rights holders and decision makers with men.

[00:29:18] And without land rights, women often lack the

[00:29:21] political power and voice both at the community and

[00:29:23] household levels.

[00:29:25] When you combine these disadvantages with

[00:29:28] the layered vulnerabilities from climate change, women

[00:29:31] are increasingly marginalized.

[00:29:33] On the other hand, we have seen that when women

[00:29:36] have secure rights to land, there's evidence that

[00:29:39] efforts to conserve biodiversity are strengthened.

[00:29:43] Climate resilience improves food security and

[00:29:45] income increases.

[00:29:47] It's really a broad swath of benefits that benefit

[00:29:51] both women and men at the household level all

[00:29:54] the way up through the community level.

[00:29:56] So I think with a challenge as complex as

[00:29:58] climate change, we need all of the innovative

[00:30:02] ideas and creative solutions and resilience from

[00:30:06] every person on the planet.

[00:30:08] And we cannot afford to miss out on half of the

[00:30:10] world's potential.

[00:30:12] Right.

[00:30:13] So land rights for women is critical.

[00:30:14] What would be that one cause that you would put

[00:30:17] your weight behind?

[00:30:19] I think it would be securing community

[00:30:22] forestry rights or indigenous communities.

[00:30:26] So what we've seen is that when communities get

[00:30:30] the rights to manage their own forests or forests

[00:30:34] that they have historically been managing and

[00:30:40] been depending on for their livelihood, for their food.

[00:30:44] So I think when communities get these rights

[00:30:47] to manage their forest, I think it can really

[00:30:50] transform not only their attitudes towards

[00:30:55] the forest, which is now looking at the forest

[00:30:59] as an asset that they own.

[00:31:01] Having that pride in, you know, like this

[00:31:04] this forest belongs to my community.

[00:31:06] So, you know, we want to take care of it for

[00:31:09] the next generation and we want to preserve it,

[00:31:13] you know, as opposed to I think you mentioned

[00:31:16] the tragedy of the comments, which is looking

[00:31:18] at the forest as something that's owned by

[00:31:21] the Forest Department or somebody else.

[00:31:23] So, you know, not really caring about,

[00:31:25] you know, whether it's cut down or burned

[00:31:28] or things like that.

[00:31:29] So I think when communities have the rights

[00:31:33] to manage this forest land, it also helps

[00:31:36] because generally if you have any schemes

[00:31:40] that are targeting payments to communities,

[00:31:43] those payments legally need to go to landowners.

[00:31:47] So for communities having those rights

[00:31:50] of ownership on their forests is also

[00:31:52] an extremely important part.

[00:31:54] If you want to be able to financially

[00:31:56] support them to protect and restore forests.

[00:31:59] So I think for me it would be community forestry rights.

[00:32:04] OK, so land rights for women and land rights for communities.

[00:32:07] Thank you so much for making time

[00:32:09] for being on the Land of a Billion podcast.

[00:32:11] And I hope our listeners have enjoyed this episode.

[00:32:14] Thanks a lot.

[00:32:15] Thank you for having me.

[00:32:17] Thanks for having me.

[00:32:22] This brings to an end the second season

[00:32:24] of the Land of a Billion podcast.

[00:32:26] During the season, we spoke to people

[00:32:28] from very different walks of life,

[00:32:29] former and current civil servants,

[00:32:31] academic researchers and civil society,

[00:32:34] all dedicating the prime of their lives

[00:32:36] to one goal that is improving land governance in India.

[00:32:39] Personally, the themes in these 10 episodes

[00:32:42] of this season have actually come a full circle for me.

[00:32:45] We started by talking about the importance

[00:32:47] of formalizing property rights

[00:32:50] and improving the quality of land records.

[00:32:53] We had a few conversations about how the law

[00:32:56] can actually exacerbate existing inequalities

[00:32:59] and how sometimes the law actually favors

[00:33:02] some stakeholders over the others.

[00:33:04] Sometimes that stakeholder is the state.

[00:33:07] We also spoke about the opacity of the law

[00:33:10] and the importance of giving access

[00:33:12] to the content of the law

[00:33:14] so that people can actually enforce their rights better.

[00:33:17] We had a dash of optimism on the urban side

[00:33:20] by laws such as DRERA,

[00:33:22] which actually enable and strengthen

[00:33:25] the rights of the average home buyer

[00:33:28] and by initiatives such as the JAGA mission,

[00:33:32] which actually formalized the rights of slum dwellers.

[00:33:34] And we ended with a theme that we began with,

[00:33:37] which is how we're formalizing property rights,

[00:33:40] defining them better, not only empower the individual,

[00:33:43] but also contribute towards the cause of climate change.

[00:33:47] I wanted to end by thanking

[00:33:48] the Property Rights Research Consortium

[00:33:50] and the Quinn teams for putting this season together,

[00:33:53] Omedya Network India for supporting this initiative.

[00:33:56] A special shout out to the teams at the Quantum Hub

[00:33:59] and Abhishek Shah for designing the content of this podcast,

[00:34:02] the marketing material and editing this podcast.

[00:34:05] And last but not the least,

[00:34:06] thanks to the listeners for staying with us through this season

[00:34:09] and for being the reason that we do all of this.

[00:34:12] Thank you and goodbye.

[00:34:31] Thanks for listening.

[00:34:32] Log on to the Quinn's website and check out our other podcasts.