Peter Windsor on Suzuka, Red Bull-Newey-Verstappen, Ferrari-Hamilton & Lots More

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[00:00:56] Before we begin, I wanted to give a huge shout out to the folks at Amazon Music for partnering

[00:01:07] with us on this episode of the Inside Line F1 Podcast. But more on this later, right then,

[00:01:13] let's get right into today's episode.

[00:01:37] And we're so grateful to have you as well, Peter for this particular episode. Thank you

[00:01:41] so much for taking out the time. The joiners on the podcast and this weekend we're talking

[00:01:45] Suzuka because of course Formula One returns here after an entire and what a circuit

[00:01:51] this is. Particularly, I can imagine it must be for you as well because you must have had

[00:01:55] so many memories in this place, right? Because if my reading serves me correctly, I think

[00:02:01] you were there back when it was William's Honda also, right? Back in Suzuka, was that

[00:02:06] the case as well? That's right, 87. It was rather strange for the Japanese, for the Honda

[00:02:13] people because we, I was at Williams at the time and we've been running engines since

[00:02:18] what, 84 started winning in 85, 86. There was no Japanese Grand Prix so they still, in

[00:02:25] Japan, they hadn't actually heard the real sound of the Honda engine in the back of a

[00:02:28] Williams. It was kind of a weird thing. And when we got there eventually, before that race

[00:02:35] in 87, we went to the Toshigi test track and Waco in Tokyo, the Honda facilities and did

[00:02:42] some demos. That's when Nigel did the first ever donut actually and outside the factory

[00:02:47] and Waco with everybody standing in white coats must have been 2,000 and 100 employees just

[00:02:52] standing there and Nigel was in the FW 11. And they just thought he was going to do a sort

[00:02:58] of short acceleration run. They're going to hear the sound of the engine and he just floored

[00:03:03] the throttle with full left lock and did the first ever donut and just scattered the 2,000

[00:03:08] people into all four corners of the globe basically. And then yeah, of course, then eventually

[00:03:13] we had a Japanese Grand Prix so it's kind of strange to think but Honda were winning world

[00:03:18] championships and Grand Prix before they actually had the Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuki

[00:03:24] at that point of Formula One history. And it says a lot about Honda really, how committed

[00:03:29] they are to racing and of course that track, Suzuki track was created by Honda and to their credit,

[00:03:35] they got John Hogan holds the Dutch designer architect to create the circuit based on the work

[00:03:40] he done at Zanbot and he came up with that wonderful figure eight circuit which still lives today.

[00:03:45] When I first saw that circuit as a kid, I was blown away about how a figure of eight could actually

[00:03:49] happen. I can't imagine what it must have been like for you folks when he first walked into that

[00:03:54] place and saw it in all of its grandeur, the curves, the wages loops around itself and the corners.

[00:04:00] What was your first impression of Suzuki actually like Peter?

[00:04:03] Well being a scale electric kid and trying to get up with scale electric, my first scale

[00:04:07] electric track was a figure eight. I was kind of excited to see Suzuki that figure eight actually

[00:04:11] exists as you say. Yeah, you know, I did actually go look at the bridge pretty quickly in the

[00:04:16] superstructure around there to see how they've done it and I was very impressed as ever you would

[00:04:21] be with Hogan Holtz Japanese Honda joint construction and it was that and it was all the vantage points

[00:04:29] and we walked around the circuit immediately and to look down on the S's as they're coming up the

[00:04:34] hill towards the Dunlock curve and then Degna's just drank it all in. Of course, it isn't just

[00:04:41] the track there as well. It was the entire infrastructure of the hotel, this is a Zooka circuit hotel

[00:04:48] and everything around that and all the activities you can do if you're a racing fan or if you're

[00:04:54] just coming with your family. I mean, the only thing about Zooka is it's quite difficult to get to

[00:04:59] then and there still is today in terms of traffic and small roads and everything else but

[00:05:05] it's a nice walk from the nearby Yokeichi station and so forth. So no, we just loved it. We just

[00:05:11] loved it from day one and of course we were quite privileged because Honda looked after us pretty

[00:05:15] well and we were in nice rooms in the Suzuki circuit hotel and we ate in the nice restaurant,

[00:05:20] went for a log camp then afterwards and had a drink and it was just yeah great times.

[00:05:25] What were the fans like though back in the past? From what we see today they are the most insanely

[00:05:31] passionate fans across the globe especially with the hats with the caps and all the sorts of

[00:05:36] fun demonstrations that they have but were they somewhat similar back in the past as well when

[00:05:41] the Japanese Grand Prix first rode in on to Suzuki. Oh yeah they were, it's part of Japanese nature

[00:05:46] very polite, very civil, very humble and very patient and everything was neat and tidy and when

[00:05:54] a child or even an adult has taken the trouble to frame a photograph and put it in its context

[00:06:03] a driver usually if it's a normal person isn't going to have a problem taking a bit of time

[00:06:08] signing that and that was the case with the Japanese that everything was detailed and passionate as

[00:06:13] you say. I think we have this impression that they're even more passionate than than we it's just

[00:06:17] that they do things differently. I like the way they do it one of the things that struck me very

[00:06:22] early on with the pictures that the organizers have put up in the tunnel where you walk through if

[00:06:28] you're a pedestrian arrival at the circuit and the pictures of the drivers and the great moments in

[00:06:33] Honda history and so forth. And at any other circuit in the world after four days three and a half days

[00:06:39] of the crowd getting in and out they would have been either stolen or defaced or something but by

[00:06:44] Sunday night they're all still there absolutely perfect and and that I think that says a lot about

[00:06:49] about the Japanese culture and the other thing of course is that when it's the weather's not good

[00:06:54] and the cars aren't on track and there's a bit of a delay they just sit there patiently in the

[00:06:58] grandstand and even in the pouring rain. And that I always feel a bit sorry for them really but

[00:07:03] you know then then you feel like going out and perhaps putting on some sort of show for them.

[00:07:07] I think the Formula One teams in general always feel that way if the weather's a bit off.

[00:07:11] So yeah I think everybody loves going there it's the detail and it's the it's the attention to

[00:07:17] detail and it's the dare I say it it's the politeness of the of the culture. Well there's one word

[00:07:24] that you mentioned there that I'd love to pick up on rain and rain is a condition where the

[00:07:29] champions really do well. The likes of Vettel, Alonzo, Schumacher, Senna, Hamilton, you name it

[00:07:35] and these are the sorts of people who've actually done so well at Suzuka. Why do you think that's

[00:07:40] the case? Why have all the champions particularly excelled at this one circuit? And we should add

[00:07:45] Damon Holt to that classic way of Damon's. Well I think if you think I mean Suzuka is a very

[00:07:53] demanding circuit. I'm not saying that if you've got a terrible car and a great driver that great

[00:07:59] great driver is going to put it on the front row because this circuit is a driver's circuit.

[00:08:03] Obviously there is a certain amount required by the car and there's some long streets at Suzuka

[00:08:08] you shouldn't forget that. That's probably why Red Bull will go really well as we can

[00:08:13] because they're good at everything else and they've got a top speed advantage but

[00:08:17] it is a circuit where you've got to get the S's you got to get turns 1A and 1B as I always call them

[00:08:22] perfect. And coming out of B you've got to get the entry to the S's perfect and then of course

[00:08:28] you've got to be really good through the S's in terms of change in direction. Then you've got to

[00:08:32] be really good in terms of short corners going through Dunlop and going into Degna where there's

[00:08:37] always understeer the track falls away and you've got to be very good at balancing the car going

[00:08:41] into Degna 1 and then and tech Degna if you get that right Degna 2 should happen but usually when

[00:08:46] you see drivers running out of road at Degna 2 it's because they've got one wrong and then there's

[00:08:51] the area of Ein King which nobody else has ever had a problem with but where he had that massive crash

[00:08:55] in 99 I think because he'd been in a nightclub the nightclub for igneas I mean in Tokyo then the

[00:09:01] hairpin and all I'm saying is there's some lots of really intricate things you can do at Suzuka.

[00:09:07] So if you then add the wet to that it means that not only if you've got to do all those things well

[00:09:13] but you've got to find where the grip is on all of those places as well and that's that's all touch

[00:09:19] and feel and and just maximizing the car once where you know where the grip is you've still got

[00:09:26] to do what the basic fundamentals of turns 1A and 1B require but you might be doing it half a car

[00:09:33] length to the left of where you would normally be in the dry and that's it's the same thing in terms

[00:09:37] of touch and feel so it just adds another component you can't be clicking the wet at Suzuka unless

[00:09:43] you're pretty good there in the dry I think it's the easy thing to say and if you are good in the

[00:09:47] dry it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be good in the wet but if you have that touch and feel

[00:09:52] that comes with the great drivers then you will be and it rewards it rewards that it rewards

[00:09:59] sensitivity and suppleness rather than aggressive moments that require great car control

[00:10:07] from which to recover everything needs to be quite fingertips as ok let's be honest Peter you must

[00:10:12] have wished that you would have a lap there right I mean surely that that thought was across your

[00:10:17] mind as well did you get the chance to ever drive there I think I've driven around in a road car

[00:10:25] when we were there in 80 I think we did we go there in 86 yeah we did go there in 86 did some

[00:10:32] demos and I think then I did I did some road yeah I went round in a road car I mean it didn't mean much

[00:10:37] because I wasn't going very quickly and I wasn't trying to go quickly I'm like Ron Dennis who went

[00:10:43] off in his McLaren F1 didn't he road car when he was demoing that and went off and turned one I think

[00:10:48] no I but no it was fabulous you know I love going up the S is there I mean that to me is what

[00:10:54] racing is all about that sort of walls that you can get into that rhythm of change your direction

[00:10:59] if you've got as I say if you get into the first part of the S is correctly the rest of it kind

[00:11:03] of happens and it's a bit like Beckett Silverstone and it's a shame we don't have more corners

[00:11:08] like that yeah but isn't it funny how heading into such a beautiful circuit the biggest story of

[00:11:13] the entire Formula 1 weekend isn't even Formula 1 it's actually the Formula 1 owners buying out

[00:11:18] Moto GP and I find it to be really exciting time because through my experiences last year at the

[00:11:24] Indian Grand Prix where I was commentating I was literally feeling the need of a promoter who could

[00:11:29] do a lot more in terms of the marketing and Liberty Media is someone who does exactly that

[00:11:33] and I particularly wanted to know your take on this period about a Formula 1 Moto GP synchronization

[00:11:39] of sorts with the brands working together do you think that's a possibility I mean there have been

[00:11:44] wild ideas like a common race weekend floating around the paddock that's that's a bit ostentatious

[00:11:50] as it not well I have to say I'm not a Moto GP guy I don't really understand there's too much

[00:11:56] overtaking the racing is too close it's too much for me yeah the bikes are quite small for

[00:12:01] the width of the track if you get what I mean so I'm not a fan I'm not a fan I just have no

[00:12:06] knowledge of it all I can say is that I can't imagine that they would share the same weekend

[00:12:10] because what they need from the racetrack in terms of runoff area and curbs completely different

[00:12:16] I would imagine and whenever we've had an issue in Formula 1 about curbs the answer has usually

[00:12:22] been oh well they're there because of Moto GP and everybody saying well let's get away we're not

[00:12:26] Moto GP we need to get away from this so I'd be surprised if Liberty try to put them on at the same

[00:12:32] weekend unless they do some sort of create some purpose built track in the middle of nowhere where you

[00:12:37] can overnight change the spec of the track or something which doesn't sound like sort of thing

[00:12:43] Liberty would do they're more into street races these days if they're going to spend money on

[00:12:47] things like that so I don't see that I mean I'm sure Moto GP will benefit from being owned by

[00:12:54] a company like Liberty Media if you look at a lot of the stuff they've done in Formula 1

[00:12:59] it's been very different from how Formula 1 was in the past mind you it was a pretty low bar because

[00:13:05] Formula 1 in the past was Bernie Eccleston's Formula 1 and Albert Bernie did a million great

[00:13:10] things he wasn't really interested in the internet and he wasn't really interested in that the

[00:13:15] past the history of Formula 1 and Liberty have done quite a lot in both those areas as I say not

[00:13:20] a particularly difficult thing to do because hadn't been done before but otherwise yeah they'll just

[00:13:27] be owned by Liberty and to me it's not a massive story because you know I think you ask why I'm not

[00:13:34] into Moto GP I mean yeah they're bikes and stuff but for me downhill skiing is much closer to

[00:13:41] the Formula 1's skill set than Moto GP and indeed rallying is I think so I'll be I'm more into

[00:13:50] rallying than I am in Formula 1 I'd love to see Liberty Media buy the world rally championship now

[00:13:55] that really would be good because at the moment I think it's a bit lost and that I'd love to see

[00:13:59] that I agree with you that that would be the coolest thing in the world but let's also move back

[00:14:03] to talk about the 2024 F1 season because there's been so much chaos off the track that we

[00:14:09] somewhat tend to forget what happens on it but let's actually start off by talking about Red Bull

[00:14:14] Racing and I particularly really wanted to know your take on this because it sort of gets

[00:14:20] masked in the results but nobody's really noticing Sergio Perez a lot this year

[00:14:25] and that may be a good or a bad thing do you think Sergio is doing anything different this year

[00:14:30] or is he having a bet at 2024 then he had 2023 for instance like do you think he's on the right

[00:14:36] track in terms of performance yeah I think Sergio is doing pretty well I don't think he drove very

[00:14:40] well in Australia to be honest but I think in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia he did exactly what he should

[00:14:46] should do in that team a very good backup job to Max and had Max had a problem he would have won

[00:14:50] the races quite clearly so that's all you can expect of the guy and the other car at Red Bull if Max

[00:14:57] is in the number one car or the prime car let's put it that way Australia has disappointed with him

[00:15:03] partly they shouldn't have allowed that to happen but it may not have been his fault in Q1 with the

[00:15:09] impeding of Nika Holkemberg but he got that three-place grid penalty but having said that

[00:15:15] I still think he should have beaten the McLaren's around Albert Park in a Red Bull RB20

[00:15:21] it was a quick car no doubt and he didn't and I felt it was a bit of a flat race from

[00:15:27] Perez he will talk about the tyres not being particularly good and get the hard tyres to work

[00:15:32] that well but you know that's part of the job you know you should be getting them to work well

[00:15:35] in a car that's that good I suppose you have to see that under the heading of the nature of Albert

[00:15:41] Park it's not a circuit where Red Bull's greatest strength against Ferrari could show up as I said

[00:15:50] earlier I think that's top speed now I don't think there's that much between them in terms of the

[00:15:55] way they can manage the tyres the sweet spot they have for managing the tyres Ferrari done a good

[00:15:59] job there I think in terms of overall arrow efficiency Red Bull's well ahead which is why they

[00:16:04] have a top speed advantage but that top speed advantage didn't really show up or couldn't show

[00:16:09] up around Albert Park because I'm already long straights that so in that sense I suppose you could

[00:16:14] say in a race where Perez had a three-place grid penalty he was on a circuit where he didn't have

[00:16:20] the advantage that normally you would have with a Red Bull RB20 so maybe I'm being unfair there

[00:16:26] but I still think we could have seen a bit more from him than that race but it's only one race

[00:16:31] and I think overall yeah I think he's doing a very good job I haven't changed my interest in him or

[00:16:38] interest disinterest in him I think he's just done a very good job and really there's no reason to

[00:16:43] replace him people are saying oh well you know Carlos science yeah I mean obviously we'd love to see

[00:16:48] Carlos in a decent car he deserves it but would Carlos really want to spend one year driving

[00:16:53] alongside Max Verstappen let alone three years you know it's not going to be a great life for him

[00:16:58] there so Sergio is actually a pretty good guy to have in that other car very interesting how you just

[00:17:03] ended this point Peter because you brought in Carlos science and you know there's this whole talk

[00:17:07] of Will Max move to Mercedes if the whole power struggle plays out the you know way that he doesn't

[00:17:14] expect it to and so on and so on but we don't know what the power struggles eventually gonna lead us

[00:17:19] to or if it's actually ended even the Christian honor saying it's time to move on the big question is

[00:17:26] has the power struggle or will the power struggle actually force Red Bull to plan for Max Verstappen's

[00:17:33] succession just in case he just gets up one dance as I'm leaving uh not really no I think the only

[00:17:39] key person at Red Bull is Adrian Neue and whether Max stays or not is kind of irrelevant so long

[00:17:46] as they have Adrian Neue and I can't imagine that Max will leave so long as Adrian Neue is there so

[00:17:51] I think everybody's kind of got it around the wrong way they should be talking about is Adrian in

[00:17:55] any way affected by any of this stuff that's been going on behind the scenes yes he's gonna leave wow

[00:18:01] that's a big thing if Adrian's gonna leave where's he gonna go that's where Max will go for sure

[00:18:06] and equally is he gonna retire and just pull out a formula one in which case it's a whole new

[00:18:11] clean sheet of paper for everybody personally I think Adrian will stay and I don't think much will change

[00:18:16] I think Max will if Adrian's at Red Bull I think Max will stay and there's only one Adrian Neue

[00:18:21] and there's more than one Max Verstappen there's a guy called Lewis Hamilton there's a guy called

[00:18:25] Schuller Clerk and there's a few new ones coming along Oscar Piaestry good example so

[00:18:31] if if Red Bull keep Adrian Neue and he signs a new three or four year contract and Max says

[00:18:38] I'm out of here I've had enough well I don't think they'll be that worried they'll just say right

[00:18:43] we'll get the next big star and Adrian Neue is good enough to win us world championships without

[00:18:47] Max Verstappen I believe he is you know as we've seen in the past he won them a lot with Sebastian

[00:18:52] Betel so there you go it reminds me of Bernie Eccleson's classic quote the easiest to replace

[00:18:59] in a car is the driver clearly speaking that's what Red Bull or any team over the years it was Max

[00:19:06] sorry it was Michael Schumacher for our equal replace it's gonna be Lewis Hamilton that Mercedes is

[00:19:11] gonna be looking to replace why not the same for Red Bull racing they'll they'll figure where

[00:19:15] the next superstar's coming well yeah I mean yeah I mean Bernie said that but of course the

[00:19:23] reality is I'm saying it if you have Adrian Neue there's a big difference if you take

[00:19:28] Haas as a good example they don't have Adrian Neue they have a pretty good team now of engineers

[00:19:34] people on the ground the Lara have always been good they got some Ferrari technology there

[00:19:38] but they need because of way who they are how they are how the teams put together the budget

[00:19:44] everything else they need the two best drivers they can get and they've done a good job there and

[00:19:48] you can see how having two quick drivers who know how to finish a race Kevin Magnuson and

[00:19:54] Nika Holcomb you can see how big a difference that does make over other teams which don't have

[00:19:59] the same quality over the two drivers and drivers do make a big difference so in that sense Bernie's

[00:20:06] wrong I don't think Haas could just put anybody in and get the same results but he's correct if

[00:20:12] you have a team like Red Bull with Adrian Neue 60% of the job is done if not 70% yes of course it's

[00:20:20] nice to have the best driver in the world then maximize everything you have and destroy the

[00:20:25] opposition forever more but even if you don't you still got a pretty good chance of winning the

[00:20:30] championship as Red Bull have proven I mean Sebastian Betel quite clearly is not as good a driver as

[00:20:35] Max Verstappen and yet they won four world championships with Betel that just shows how good

[00:20:39] the team is and how good Adrian is that makes me want to dig deeper upon the qualities of these

[00:20:44] drivers and how many Max Verstappens can we find on the grid and what's your take on this whole

[00:20:51] affair Peter how many world championship level drivers do you think we have on the grid today

[00:20:56] and would you rate someone like Landon or as a world champion material driver as well I think as

[00:21:01] you look at the moment Oscar Piaestry definitely has more potential than Landon or as he is the way

[00:21:07] he takes corners is more efficient he's more clinical he's what I would call a short corner driver

[00:21:13] he gets into the corner earlier he does a lot of mid corner manipulation with his hands and

[00:21:18] particularly with these footwork which we never see on camera but he's got phenomenal footwork

[00:21:23] Oscar Piaestry and he's a very self critical athlete let alone racing driver which is a very

[00:21:30] good sign he's always looking at other drivers seeing if he can learn from them I think Landon is

[00:21:36] very very good but he's kind of at a peak that he's not going to be able to improve upon

[00:21:44] other than just with normal experience unless he becomes more self critical I think he thinks there's

[00:21:49] only one way of taking a corner and that's the way he takes it and I'm not sure if you would have

[00:21:53] talked to Landon that he would know why Oscar Piaestry relatively often is as quick if not

[00:22:01] quicker than he is he wouldn't really have an explanation for it other than to say well he just

[00:22:05] got a good run or his car set up was better or something like that or he Landon made a mistake

[00:22:10] and there is a fundamental difference in the technique they use and to me Oscars definitely

[00:22:14] got more scope and more potential so I would say he's definitely a potential world champion

[00:22:20] whether or not he will win that McLaren is another matter and if he was in it's interesting how

[00:22:27] do you state at Alpine and not jumped out of the Alpine into the McLaren and just gone ahead

[00:22:31] with the announcement Alpine made that he is our race driver alongside Esteban O'Conn.

[00:22:36] Right now he'd be in a perfect position to be getting the second Mercedes on a long-term D

[00:22:41] or alongside George Russell in which case you could say yeah this guy really does have the potential

[00:22:45] to the Winter World Championship. McLaren maybe but it's a big ask from McLaren to go where they

[00:22:50] are right now to winning a world championship so I'd say Oscar is one of them and for sure

[00:22:58] shall the clerk for sure Lewis can still win championships I think George and Lando probably can

[00:23:05] providing they don't have a guy in the other car who's going to take points from this or just

[00:23:08] the Lando situation at McLaren if George has I don't know let's say has Carlos

[00:23:14] science alongside him then it'll be quite difficult for George to score maximum points in every race

[00:23:21] I think Carlos will take points from him and vice versa so they will sort of cancel one another

[00:23:26] out if you like you're talking about world championships that's why I'm speaking this way

[00:23:31] and I think at Ferrari shall the clerk Lewis Hamilton it's going to be quite difficult for them

[00:23:36] for one of them to have a clear advantage in terms of the points you need to win a championship

[00:23:41] that's why always Max has had a guy like Perez in the other car because it's very rare that Perez

[00:23:46] actually takes points away from Max if you see what I mean on the road but I'd say Oscar is a guy

[00:23:52] out there that can really do it Liam Lawson if he gets the chance something has great car control

[00:23:57] and great is a brave driver and I think he's got a lot of feel for racing he's a real race I would

[00:24:06] say I don't think he's got Oscar's detail but he's a sort of he's a sort of hard charging

[00:24:12] Lando if you like and I'm obviously all of a bearman in looking at the future he's very good

[00:24:20] bit George Russell is in the way he drives but certainly quite capable of winning a championship

[00:24:25] and he juries out on Kimmy and Tonelli I think at the moment because it's still very early days

[00:24:31] but I'm sure Mercedes will try and race him next year wait wait that's actually very interesting

[00:24:37] because now that you've mentioned Mercedes a big fun question has popped up in my mind about the

[00:24:41] whole driver dynamic you spoke so well about there being two competitor drivers in one team and the

[00:24:47] chaos that could solve are the create for Mercedes right if your Mercedes right now and Lewis

[00:24:51] Hamilton is just left what sort of a driver would you want in the team someone who's a wingman to

[00:24:57] George or a proper alpha quite like Lewis what would you do?

[00:25:01] God I would put all my bucket all my eggs into the George Russell bucket I'm a great believer in

[00:25:05] bringing the best out in a guy and and definitely giving him the confidence he needs to go and do

[00:25:11] the job and if you cramp George's style with somebody very quick it won't get the best from him

[00:25:17] in the same way it didn't get the best from Lewis when they decided to replace Bultri Boatast with

[00:25:22] George and that's why Lewis wanted to keep Boatast he was the perfect number two just as Perez is

[00:25:26] the perfect number two to Max and soon as they put George in was always going to be an issue there

[00:25:31] and had they not done that interestingly probably now they could look at running Lewis long term

[00:25:38] and putting Antonelli in the other car and be a really good team really good team Lewis and

[00:25:56] again you know put in George with Boatast to be quite a good team but I wouldn't put George

[00:26:02] with say shall a clerk or George with Max or George with even with Carlos probably would be quite

[00:26:08] difficult. It'll be interesting to see how Kimi and Antonelli fares up but now that you're talking

[00:26:14] about this story it reminds me so much of Fernando and then Lewis in 2007 and the chaos that

[00:26:19] ensued there it'll be good times if we see another rookie jump into that Mercedes seat but I really

[00:26:25] love to touch upon Ferrari here as well because the whole vibe around the team is suddenly so much

[00:26:31] better it's different and you spend some time at the team you know what the proper work at the

[00:26:36] game proper culture at Ferrari's like but it seems like Fred Visitor has just jumped in and made

[00:26:41] it sharper more efficient. What do you think he's changed and why is that good vibe suddenly back

[00:26:46] again around Ferrari? Well Fred is just a logical racer that doesn't speak very much which is exactly

[00:26:51] what you want and how you want good racing people to be it just use your brain do what's logical

[00:26:56] and get on with it. As Maurice Nunn always said, Maurice Nunn who ran the inside Formula One team self-starts

[00:27:02] at Built Design Cars did really good job he just said there's no magic you just use your head and

[00:27:06] make the right decisions and he's absolutely right and Fred is doing that I mean to me he's taken quite

[00:27:12] a long time to get it right but I suppose it's because it takes quite a long time to get people

[00:27:19] from one position to another even within the company these days because of all the restrictions

[00:27:24] with HR and all the rest of it and then hiring good people from outside always takes a long time

[00:27:30] because they have to serve out the term of their contract where they are so everything takes longer

[00:27:34] I guess these days but it's been quite a long time I mean all the things he's done he put in my view

[00:27:39] he could have done in six months otherwise has taken this long but anyway there you go um he has

[00:27:44] got good people I mean to me the big turning point was when he decided to keep Jock clear and put

[00:27:51] him on a long-term contract because Jock clear is the sort of guy that in if it was the wrong person

[00:27:57] running Ferrari they might get they might say oh well he's an English engineer and then the

[00:28:02] Italians would say no we don't really need him he's not a great job and they would listen

[00:28:05] to the wrong people and the next thing you know Jock's out but Fred obviously wasn't in any way

[00:28:10] swayed by that and that was a clear indication that he would make up his own mind and listen to good

[00:28:15] logical people and make the right decisions for the right reasons and that's exactly what he's done

[00:28:19] Jock clear a long-term contract shall a clerk like him in the story make it work and that's you

[00:28:25] know that's what a good racer does and that's how Ferrari kind of was when I was there with Chezere

[00:28:32] Fiorio although they quickly got blown out of the water by a guy called Castelli who was the

[00:28:39] technical director who anyway it's a long story and and because of all that political

[00:28:45] mismanagement very quickly went downhill but for a while for about eight months it was really working

[00:28:50] well and I think Fred's got the ability to keep it going now for sure he's a good good man and

[00:28:56] he as I say he's got racing in his blood so he understands good people and how they work and

[00:29:00] how they operate I think the decision to replace Carlos with Lewis is a strange one to be honest

[00:29:09] and I'm a bit still a bit confused by it because Carlos Charles Carlos I've always thought was

[00:29:16] a pretty good team in terms of their very different in personality their different in skill sets

[00:29:23] they're pretty good in terms of pretty equal in terms of what they produce I think Charles is

[00:29:29] the class driver but Carlos was getting better all the time and when things are going well it's

[00:29:36] just kind of seems unnecessary to break it up it's a bit like having a nice watch that works well

[00:29:42] and it's never let you down and then you get a raise at work can you think oh I'm going to go and

[00:29:46] buy a better watch but it's not a better watch it's just a different watch that you like the look

[00:29:50] off and you don't need to replace the other one and then that's when things get out of sync it's a

[00:29:54] bit like Daniel Riccardo leaving Red Bull for no reason other than like getting beaten by Max was

[00:29:58] to happen he walked out of the best team in racing and I think when Ferrari break up a team

[00:30:03] combination like Leclerc science because we got Abel Lewis Hamilton I think it's the wrong reasons

[00:30:09] to do it because it's I don't see what Lewis is going to bring to Ferrari I can see what Ferrari

[00:30:14] is going to give to Lewis absolutely if I was Lewis I'd be doing the same thing but from Ferrari's

[00:30:18] point of view what is it going to bring them that they don't have already that's what I don't get

[00:30:24] and because of that I'm slightly it's not it's not that I don't think the Lewis move will work

[00:30:29] it's just that that's an indication that things aren't 100% logical at Ferrari even today and maybe

[00:30:36] that decision came from right from the top from Alcona somewhere and not from Fred I don't know

[00:30:40] probably did come from the top because having having Lewis there does a massive amount for the

[00:30:45] Ferrari brand globally and the share price and everything else but from a pure racing point of view

[00:30:52] which is what Fred Vassar is all about it's not a decision that's completely logical

[00:30:57] and furthermore I can't remember a situation ever really where a driver has been told he's

[00:31:04] going to be fired at the beginning of the year rather than at the end of the year just before

[00:31:07] he does have get fired it's kind of weird that they're expecting the best from Carlos science

[00:31:12] all year but guy they've just decided to fire that's a very odd situation and you know it's it's

[00:31:19] weird I don't really I don't really get why they did that I'm still confused actually I'd love

[00:31:24] to confuse you even more why do you think they pick Leclerc over science the only driver who's

[00:31:30] one race for them in the last couple of years why would they pick the other one to stay in the team?

[00:31:35] Well I don't know I don't think that's odd I think if they deciding that one of them has to go

[00:31:42] which again as I say it's a it's an odd decision I don't agree that that is the right

[00:31:47] decision I personally don't think that was correct but if somebody said one of them has to go

[00:31:52] in my mind yet would be science because Leclerc is the class driver he's a shorter corner driver

[00:31:58] he's much better on with a bad car when the tires are graining and when things are going wrong he's

[00:32:04] he's the better driver he's got a much wider palette on which he can operate and

[00:32:10] and that's great and Carlos is Carlos has got a point now that he's reached he's in a really nice

[00:32:16] zone but it's but it's a zone where if he goes beyond it it's all to do with reflexes and super

[00:32:22] late braking and and all the things that can cause an issue if if there's a crosswind or if there's

[00:32:30] something changing in track conditions or if the cars going off in some way it's more difficult

[00:32:37] for Carlos with with his scope to be able to live with all of those things so technically in my

[00:32:44] opinion Charles is a is a better driver than Carlos science but as I've said I think Carlos

[00:32:49] is absolutely good enough to justify keeping him at Ferrari and I think you had the best of both

[00:32:55] worlds with those two drivers and but yeah I would have I would have done the same thing because

[00:33:01] Peter you must get rid of one of them I would have sadly I would have said goodbye to Carlos

[00:33:05] but I'm not sure I would have done it the way they did because I'd want to keep Carlos

[00:33:11] confident and happy for a bit longer you know let's just take a quick switch to Daniel Ricardo yeah what

[00:33:19] do you think is not working for him in 2024 yes just three races in but clearly Yuki's seem to

[00:33:27] her Yuki seems to have the measure on him yet in the first three races of the season yeah when

[00:33:32] people were asking me before the season started what would be the things I'm looking forward to seeing

[00:33:39] I said the battle between Yuki and Daniel was definitely going to be one of them

[00:33:44] and because I you know for me Yuki's very very quick and I knew it was going to be a problem for

[00:33:49] Daniel and it's always going to be interesting to see how he faced that problem and it's no

[00:33:54] surprise really to see that Yuki is on top of him and it's quite a difficult time already for Daniel

[00:33:59] of course the real problem is that if you're Daniel Ricardo and you've worked like a dog or your

[00:34:05] younger career to get into a Formula 1 team and eventually you make it to Formula 1

[00:34:11] into the best team in Grand Prix Racing Red Bull Racing with Adrian Newiers the Chief Engineer

[00:34:17] and you start winning Grand Prix and then another guy joins the team and he's a bit better than you

[00:34:23] in a couple of areas and he's obviously going to be difficult to beat but nonetheless if you stay

[00:34:30] where you are you're still going to win Grand Prix and you're going to be pretty happy every morning

[00:34:34] when you wake up and you then walk out of that team because you just can't stand being beaten

[00:34:40] even if it's not necessarily every race and you go to another team for more money and you go to

[00:34:47] another team because they don't want you anymore and then you try somewhere else and then you're out

[00:34:50] for a while and then you come back with Red Bull at the back of the Red Bull list of drivers.

[00:34:56] I tell you what that does that eats away at the heart of what you are all about as a human being.

[00:35:01] You're no longer this hungry burning ambition racing driver that a bubble wants to just be in

[00:35:08] the best car he can possibly be in to show his talent. You've played around with the gifts that

[00:35:13] have been given to you and that's where Daniel is today. He's kind of lost that

[00:35:20] he lost that soul of being a pure racing driver the millisecond he decided to leave Red Bull

[00:35:28] that's when inside his psyche changed he was no longer the person that he'd been up until that point

[00:35:33] and that's what we're seeing today and no matter how hard he tries to be the super professional driver

[00:35:39] who's quite experienced now who has race wins to his credit who can bring experience to the team

[00:35:45] in a number of ways who's a really nice guy who is a pleasure to be with at any given moment

[00:35:51] that who the sponsors love no matter all of that stuff he isn't the same driver that he was

[00:35:57] before he decided to leave Red Bull it's as simple as that it's a question of human nature

[00:36:01] and I don't think he's ever going to get that back because you know as Jonathan Wheatley of Red Bull

[00:36:07] said to Daniel before he left or as he left Red Bull he said Daniel don't leave if you stay with us

[00:36:14] you're going to win a lot of Grand Prix and you're going to be very successful yeah Max is quicker

[00:36:19] but we're going to look after you now no I'm out of here I can't stand it anymore terrible decision

[00:36:24] by Daniel Riccardo in my opinion yeah he's a richer man in terms of his bank account but not a

[00:36:29] not a good decision to make it's a decision against the heart and soul of what he was all about

[00:36:37] and I know now having had a lot of water pass under the bridge he's now feeling very refreshed

[00:36:43] and he's feeling hungry and he wants to get out there and he's got this opportunity and he's

[00:36:47] going to prove it the problem is he's got this young you know Yuki Senota in the other car

[00:36:52] who is not only super quick but he's over the last bird of 2023 he learned how to bring a car

[00:36:59] home and score points on a regular basis and that's what he's still doing driving really well in

[00:37:04] the racists and it's very easy for people to ride off Yuki and say oh you know he's quick but

[00:37:09] he's a bit wild he's not wild he's very very good he's very good and and and I don't think Daniel

[00:37:15] knows how to beat him that's the problem that's a very well summarized I remember when Daniel Riccardo

[00:37:21] made his moves they bought the headline driver moves those years moving away from Red Bull to Renault

[00:37:26] and then Renault to McLaren and then of course being dropped by McLaren as we all know but the

[00:37:31] other headline driver move that's happening is Lewis Hamilton but clearly he is struggling this

[00:37:37] season in that Mercedes what do you think has gone wrong Peter well clearly George is struggling

[00:37:44] in the Mercedes as well if he can't even pass Fernando Alonzo in an ass of Martin around Melbourne

[00:37:48] I mean this is a team that's one I mean I don't know I've lost track of how many world

[00:37:52] championships say one recently they've got all the facilities all the money all the people everything

[00:37:56] in the world biggest they can possibly have they're getting beaten by two of their three customer

[00:38:02] teams it's pathetic so it's not just Lewis I mean when you've got a car it's obviously still

[00:38:07] very difficult to drive but they haven't done over the winter what Ferrari have done which has

[00:38:14] taken top speed out of the car added downforce in an efficient way to get the tyres much more

[00:38:20] manageable and give them the drivers much more opportunity to show their ability at which for

[00:38:26] what Ferrari have done Mercedes tried to do that and have quite clearly not succeeded and they've

[00:38:33] still got a car but if they take the wing off the car then in which to have a reasonable top speed

[00:38:38] the cars on an absolute knife edge on anything approaching a medium or high speed corner

[00:38:43] and high speed oversteer is not something that I would imagine Lewis Hamilton with seven world

[00:38:50] championships behind him and all that road dust is going to necessarily embrace if he's doing it

[00:38:58] for to finish six in a Grand Prix why would he I wouldn't I mean anyone with a racing brain would

[00:39:03] know that Lewis isn't going to put his put his neck out of the way George Russell will for one lap

[00:39:08] with white knuckles absolutely on the edge why does Lewis need to do that if it's for the pole yeah

[00:39:13] obviously he will but the P6 P5 or something forget it and that's you know that's totally understandable

[00:39:21] and I think anybody that imagines that Lewis today would be putting it out on the edge

[00:39:25] the way he did in 2007 2008 is doesn't know much about racing you know it doesn't understand

[00:39:30] the sport or human beings really but I think Lewis is doing a really good job overall

[00:39:36] but I think he's obviously massively disappointed yet again that the car isn't a race winner

[00:39:41] a and b he's got the Ferrari contract in his pocket he's already thinking about pastor and red cars

[00:39:46] and an island called Sardinia where he might buy a house I've no idea all the things that come with

[00:39:52] driving for Ferrari and he's looking forward to that he's relaxed no longer he's that worried

[00:39:58] about all the frenetic George Russell white knuckle stuff that you know has been going on

[00:40:04] the Mercedes didn't fight hard enough I think after Abu Dhabi 21 to to to redress the balance there

[00:40:12] they they hired George Russell when Lewis wanted to keep Baltry and they've given Lewis

[00:40:18] a very bad car for the last ever since so it's no surprise that he just wants to get out of that

[00:40:23] place now I'm surprised he stuck at this long to be honest at Mercedes you also mentioned

[00:40:28] you know the George Russell's inability to pass Fernando Alonso given how bad the Mercedes

[00:40:33] is this you're very interesting but what do you make off the Fernando Alonso and George Russell

[00:40:39] incident from the last race in Australia well it definitely wasn't a break test and so the penalty

[00:40:46] that they gave Fernando which was for break testing should not have been applied I don't think

[00:40:53] having said that if that is the correct penalty for break testing and I should reiterate here I don't

[00:40:58] think that was break testing then the penalty is a complete joke because break testing is about

[00:41:02] the most dangerous thing you can do in Formula One it is the most dangerous thing you can do

[00:41:06] in Formula One and if anybody's ever caught by telemetry break testing another driver

[00:41:11] that I in my opinion they should be excluded from the world championship and they should be banned

[00:41:15] for three races five races maybe not not given a 22nd penalty but having said all of that I don't

[00:41:22] think Fernando was break testing George but I do think he was fafing around trying to sort of

[00:41:28] unsettle George and doing what Fernando does sometimes and being a bit clever and going into the

[00:41:34] corner a bit slower and trying to slow him down at the apex and then getting on the power and trying

[00:41:38] to get a gap from him which is kind of it's okay you know there's nothing in the sporting rules

[00:41:43] as I know that so you can't do that and George I imagine has done his homework and knows that

[00:41:50] Fernando has done that in the past in fact in various situations if he hasn't done his homework

[00:41:54] he should have known that and should have predicted that Fernando might be trying something like that

[00:41:59] or if George hadn't certainly some of the Mercedes engineers on the radio to George should have

[00:42:03] been saying that to George but I'm not sure they were because I'm not sure that many of them

[00:42:08] care about the history of the sport that much but there's a good example when some people say

[00:42:13] and I do put a lot of live streams and not so long ago I had a viewer said Peter it's 2024

[00:42:19] stop talking about 1986 or something like that and I was quite upset about that because

[00:42:25] was standing on the shoulders today of all the people that did what they did in 1986 and they're

[00:42:30] standing on the shoulders of what everybody did in 1958 so you can't you actually forget about

[00:42:38] history at your peril and that was a very good example if the engineers have been onto George

[00:42:43] saying George remember Imola Michael and Fernando remember what he was doing to Michael remember

[00:42:48] what that race was all about be ready for Fernando to do something a bit weird going into a

[00:42:52] slower corner maybe that wouldn't an accident wouldn't have happened but I wonder whether the

[00:42:56] engineers were saying that I doubt it because I think today the drivers and the engineers live

[00:43:01] in a sort of bubble of operation and the rules define what you can and cannot do and they just

[00:43:06] assume that everybody's going to drive within those rules but a driver like Fernando has got so

[00:43:11] much skill and he's so imaginative that even on the edge of the rules he can find little gray areas

[00:43:17] flexibility that still allow him to be Fernando Alonzo and keep a car like an Aston ahead of

[00:43:24] a Mercedes a factory Mercedes and that's exactly what he was doing as it happened he kind of messed

[00:43:30] it up didn't he in that corner he as it by his own admission which is kind of unusual for Fernando

[00:43:35] by his own admission he made a mistake he actually went in a bit slower than he really wanted to

[00:43:39] so he actually had to accelerate again but even so it's his bit of road he's the guy in front

[00:43:43] he can kind of do whatever he likes there he's not changing direction which the rules say you

[00:43:47] can't do he's not break testing because it's not flat out in top gear so he can't have do that if

[00:43:53] he wants to so it's not nothing wrong and it just could discombobulate a George and he lost focus

[00:43:58] and when went off very weird really to be honest and I just think George should have had a slightly

[00:44:04] bigger sweet spot in which he was operating big imagine for Error given that it was Fernando he was

[00:44:09] yeah interesting you know for attacking you have so many options especially the DRS but when

[00:44:15] it comes to defending the drivers are pretty much wanting to be treated as sitting ducks especially

[00:44:20] if you go by how the FIA dealt with this situation you know drove dangerously can't slow in

[00:44:27] appropriately and all of that so I'm hoping that as we go to the next few rounds the drivers and

[00:44:33] the FIA are able to talk because what we essentially want Peter if I'll go back to the Atheans again

[00:44:38] and I love reliving those as well is we want wheel to wheel battles right we want drivers in battle

[00:44:45] engaged where we don't know who's going to come out on top but what the metric in today's age is

[00:44:51] how many overtakes have happened all people care about is has the driver behind driven past the

[00:44:57] driver ahead they don't really care how he's done that so I'm hoping that that's also something that

[00:45:02] changes as the regulations change in 2026 where you're you know giving drivers enough of a chance to

[00:45:08] battle rather than be seen as sitting ducks right but switching to Formula 2 Peter assuming you also

[00:45:16] follow Formula 2 given that you've bought a lot of yeah a lot of sport Indian Formula 2 driver

[00:45:21] Kush Mini has taken Formula 2 by storm you know two pole positions almost in the first two rounds

[00:45:27] podium finishes he's been leading the races he's been doing different things on track has he

[00:45:33] impressed you and in what he's doing with his performances this year oh definitely got a lot of time

[00:45:40] for Kush I've known of him for quite a long time because I'm good friends with a guy called Matt

[00:45:47] Carly who's very talented young English driver who I met racing Ford 1600 actually at the Formula

[00:45:54] Ford Festival about five years ago and he just does Formula Ford just for the fun of it but he

[00:45:59] is very fast racing driver's doing GT racing now in the UK and he he works for a company in at

[00:46:06] Silverstone which is a sim company basically and and Kush was always there within every day and

[00:46:12] very close friends and they just used to race one another all the time so I would ring Matt he's

[00:46:17] out yeah beat Kush today or Kush with F3 and F2 the trouble to interview him and I always thought he

[00:46:23] had very good car control and and and the right approach to be honest so yeah I think Kush is

[00:46:32] really good I think he's got a very good management team behind his managed by the same people that

[00:46:36] manage PI Gasley based in the UK very good operation he's got good people there and yeah I think

[00:46:42] a lot of people seem to take him very excuse me very seriously and that's a good thing.

[00:46:48] Too many good Indian drivers have not had the opportunity to show their talent I think

[00:46:52] Dejan Derubler is much better than a Formula E drive deserves to be honest I think he should have

[00:46:58] been given an opportunity and I find it extraordinary that Formula 1 A Formula 1 team didn't just

[00:47:03] give him a proper chance on merit as distinct from the Association of Habit Force India

[00:47:10] because he's good enough you know you see guys like Gwanyajau out there doing a pretty good job

[00:47:15] in the Salva but yeah there wasn't a lot between say Jehan and Gwanyajau in Formula 2 I think maybe

[00:47:25] probably Gwanyajau is in a slightly better team but at the time they were pretty closely matched

[00:47:29] and it wasn't as if Yehan didn't win F2 races he did and just to see who'd not been given

[00:47:35] an opportunity as a big worry and that shouldn't happen and I feel embarrassed in a way that

[00:47:41] Formula 1 has let that happen so I hope that with Kush he is given a real opportunity

[00:47:46] he's taken seriously because he's a very talented driver and the way he recovered from that setback

[00:47:51] in Bahrain when he took the pole and he's put comes the back of the grid he drove really well

[00:47:55] and then he was just honoured again you know in Saudi Arabia and that shows a lot of strength

[00:47:59] of character as well hopefully there are more occasions for us to relish his talent as well but it's

[00:48:04] been a lovely hour of chatting about Formula 1 with your Peter honestly it didn't even feel like

[00:48:09] 16 minutes it's just flown by and thank you so much for taking out the time on what is it now

[00:48:15] a Monday afternoon is it not or Tuesday morning time flies Tuesday morning here in Spain yeah

[00:48:20] lovely morning blue sky sunshineing I'm about to go and take the dog for work exactly sounds like

[00:48:26] a perfect day but seriously thank you so much for your time Peter and it was amazing to listen to you

[00:48:31] thank you thank you very much

[00:48:53] thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Inside Line F1 podcast

[00:48:57] before we end it I just wanted to say a huge thank you to amazon music once again for partnering

[00:49:02] with us on this episode of the podcast