EP 19 "Was India a geographical entity before the British? Opinions remain divided."

[00:00:00] I was not very good in math so I ended up by doing ancient Greek.

[00:00:04] Has there been collaboration in the past between India and Greece?

[00:00:07] Very basically.

[00:00:08] It's an unfair assessment to India but I think it's, ironically, it's an unfair assessment

[00:00:14] to the British.

[00:00:16] It is true that what is interesting in the case of Greece and India is that authenticity

[00:00:23] or a sort of genuine self-perception is linked with an ancient past.

[00:00:32] The reason why the English have any contact with India is because of Charles II's wife.

[00:00:38] So the Sanskrit texts are talking about the same problems that the Greek texts at the

[00:00:45] same time are.

[00:00:46] All this packed knowledge of studying from Kalidas to Guptas and to everybody when

[00:00:51] you reached India, what was your thought about the country?

[00:00:57] This is India, a story in the making and I'm your host, Loveena Tandon.

[00:01:02] Hello and welcome to India, a story in the making.

[00:01:06] Today we're going to talk about something very interesting which is debated quite a

[00:01:12] lot which is, India as a concept is pre-British or not.

[00:01:19] Did India as a concept exist before the British came to India?

[00:01:26] Also we'll explore what's in the name, India or Parade, all this conversation that happens

[00:01:32] but with someone who is a historian.

[00:01:36] But more interestingly for me, someone who was born to an American father and a Northern

[00:01:45] Irish mum in Venice and then studied in Oxford and then studied in Columbia and then stayed

[00:01:54] all over the place and went back to teach in Venice.

[00:02:00] I have to read this which is, Scuola Grande di San Marco, Venice and also associated with

[00:02:08] Hellenic Institute of Venice.

[00:02:12] Yes, Patrick now reads it.

[00:02:14] Is that right?

[00:02:15] Yes absolutely.

[00:02:16] Welcome.

[00:02:19] What's in a name?

[00:02:20] There is a lot in a name.

[00:02:22] I really like to try at least to pronounce the names correctly.

[00:02:27] So tell me again about your institute, how to say it well.

[00:02:32] Yes it's called Scuola Grande di San Marco.

[00:02:35] Scuola Grande di San Marco, brilliant.

[00:02:39] And it was originally a charitable institution in the 13th century and then it progressed and

[00:02:45] now has become a foundation which also deals with research and cultural events and we have

[00:02:52] moments of teaching as well.

[00:02:54] So that's what I collaborate with them and also with the Hellenic Institute which is

[00:03:01] the only research centre of Greece abroad.

[00:03:06] But what is very interesting is that Frederick, you'll allow me to call you Frederick right?

[00:03:14] Because I can't call Lauritse the whole time.

[00:03:18] I think I'm done.

[00:03:20] Okay this time I hope.

[00:03:23] Is that his expertise is in Byzantine period and he did a paper for which he went all

[00:03:32] the way to India, JNU where I come from, Jawaharlal University, Delhi and we will talk about that

[00:03:40] paper but before that I want to talk about your journey Frederick.

[00:03:46] Tell me about this whole global mix that is happening in you.

[00:03:50] Let's understand you first before I go into the concept.

[00:03:53] Yes well the single most important thing for me is that I was born in Venice so

[00:03:59] that's really where I feel at home and that's really where I grew up.

[00:04:03] So I grew up in Italy but in a city with no cars we have canals and sort of streets so

[00:04:10] it's a different atmosphere and the past is very important there so maybe that's also

[00:04:16] what shaped my interests as well as my parents, my father's a historian as well.

[00:04:24] So yes American and I grew up in Venice and then went to university in Oxford at

[00:04:30] New College where I read greats so I studied ancient Greek and Latin languages

[00:04:36] and also philosophy and history and from there I went to New York to

[00:04:41] Columbia University where I spent six years for my PhD, a wonderful time and

[00:04:47] then slowly went back to Venice through Paris and through another city in Italy

[00:04:54] called Bologna and now I'm back in Venice.

[00:04:59] So having travelled in so many places you were a real mix of what made you study

[00:05:09] Greek and Latin? Was it not enough that you were already such a mix?

[00:05:15] Well that's actually one of the great privileges of growing up in Italy.

[00:05:18] In Italy the Italian language derives from Latin so when you study Italian it's

[00:05:25] important to learn Latin to improve your knowledge of Italian very basically but

[00:05:31] the Romans are always talking about the Greeks so when you start reading

[00:05:35] about reading in Latin they're always telling you what the Greeks are doing

[00:05:39] So in Italy it's very normal to study Greek and Latin.

[00:05:44] They're not specialist subjects, they're subjects that many Italians have

[00:05:50] studied for five years at high school.

[00:05:53] Latin is almost obligatory for everyone so that's an ancient language

[00:05:58] and then Greek is for the people who tend to be more literary rather than

[00:06:03] scientific. We have two main choices which is what they call the

[00:06:08] Dicello Classico where you study Greek and Latin or the Dicello

[00:06:11] Gentifical where you do Latin plus more math and more sciences.

[00:06:17] I was not very good in math so I ended up by doing ancient Greek but luckily

[00:06:22] that's the subject that I fell in love with and I just continued studying it

[00:06:28] and enjoying it. I still like reading ancient Greek literature for pleasure

[00:06:32] it's not just research and work.

[00:06:36] So Italy kept you though you had an American father and you had a Northern Irish mother

[00:06:43] Oxford could hold you back, Colombia could keep you.

[00:06:47] Well no it's not that Italy kept me I'd like feeling a link with all these places

[00:06:53] but as I have a small child who's nine years old it's easier for him to go

[00:07:01] out in the street with no cars. He can play free and that's the way I grew up.

[00:07:08] So for me that's very nice it means that in this phase of my life and our life

[00:07:15] as a family we are in Venice and that suits us very nicely.

[00:07:20] I enjoyed my time in Oxford and at Columbia obviously

[00:07:24] it's... Oxford is an incredible university in a wonderful town.

[00:07:28] New York is a very special city that I felt privileged to have lived in

[00:07:34] and then living in Paris as well was very nice for four years

[00:07:38] and then Bologna gave me a different insight into Italian life

[00:07:43] with tremendous opportunities and discoveries of the way Italy works

[00:07:50] which sometimes is surprising seen from abroad.

[00:07:53] Really? Tell me more. How does it work differently?

[00:07:57] Well Italy is a wonderfully friendly place so when you're in the work environment

[00:08:05] you're often sharing very good moments with your colleagues.

[00:08:10] Sometimes the work is difficult but you can always get around it with

[00:08:14] a joke or light comment. It's a very pleasant way of working even if

[00:08:20] you're doing something difficult. What is remarkable with Italians is that

[00:08:25] some of them are truly workaholics so you very often run the risk

[00:08:32] of entering the world of non-stop work which is something that we don't think

[00:08:38] about when we look at Italy from abroad. So you have this delight

[00:08:42] comments and then people working seven days a week

[00:08:46] Wow until the late hours and they don't...

[00:08:50] That category of Italians doesn't go on holiday. They just don't think of it.

[00:08:57] For them their life is their work and so sometimes working in that environment

[00:09:02] is rather challenging. I'm not entirely Italian.

[00:09:07] In fact I'm half American, half North American so that can be

[00:09:14] challenging that real... What's your son?

[00:09:18] What's your son like? I mean he's...

[00:09:20] Well he's trilingual. He speaks three languages so he's got a superpower.

[00:09:25] He means he could communicate with most people he meets who are not

[00:09:30] How does he feel as in what do you feel like?

[00:09:34] I mean what do you feel like? I mean you said that you are...

[00:09:37] Well I'm British but I my city is Venice so that doesn't bother me in any way.

[00:09:48] It's not a problem it's just an unusual mix.

[00:09:52] But it means that people say are you Italian? I say well no I'm not.

[00:09:57] My family comes from somewhere else. Do I feel at home in Italy? Yes.

[00:10:02] But Venice is my city like if someone comes from Rome they're not Venetian.

[00:10:06] I am. It's really that simple.

[00:10:10] I found it very interesting when you said that you chose a city where there were no cars.

[00:10:16] Yes absolutely well that's that's I grew up without...

[00:10:19] I found it quite challenging when I went to Venice to say well do people open the door

[00:10:25] and do they how do they set foot on water? How does it work really every day living just...

[00:10:32] In the old days which is a couple of centuries ago the front door was facing the canal because

[00:10:38] that's where you would... So instead of cars you will have canoes?

[00:10:42] Oh it's exactly well no you'd have gondolas.

[00:10:44] Gondolas everyone will have a gondola but no that's the that's in the old days and that's

[00:10:48] when people you know owned an entire palace and rather wealthy what people do now is that

[00:10:53] they use the the entrance which gives on to the street so at the back of the and

[00:10:58] so we walk around everywhere. People own cars?

[00:11:02] No well they do but they don't use it that much because the car is somewhere else.

[00:11:07] Environment better because of that?

[00:11:09] Yes the air is better I mean you notice it if you come from from Paris for example

[00:11:15] you notice it even staying just a few days outside of Venice the air is really really

[00:11:21] not as not as good and you're on the sea so you have the the breeze from the sea

[00:11:28] it's it's a very natural environment. Last question on Venice then I think we'll move on but

[00:11:34] we've heard that Venice the water is going to the city is going to what's the word I'm looking for

[00:11:42] Venice as a city will sink yes. Well they've been saying it for for a long time I think my

[00:11:50] great great grandmother wrote home when she came to Venice and she said you must come quick Venice

[00:11:56] could sink well hasn't happened yet so we're just living here and now and at the moment it's there.

[00:12:03] I also took my children to Venice and say come on come on the city.

[00:12:11] But there's a human aspect which is remarkable about Venice because cars are very isolating

[00:12:16] when you enter a car you're in your own world when you go out of your front door in Venice

[00:12:23] you have a problem because you'll automatically bump into the people you like and the people you

[00:12:28] don't like all the time so you're you're immediately seeing people and then you say ah I forgot to

[00:12:38] ask him something let's have coffee together and so you the Italians very often go to a bar

[00:12:43] and they'll stand up and have an espresso you don't sit down it's not like in France so you

[00:12:48] stand up have a coffee five minutes exchange one or two ideas and then move on. Ah it's time for us

[00:12:57] to move on too but this is very very interesting to me it was a great digression I think now

[00:13:04] moving on your interest in India and when I say um when I say India did India as a

[00:13:13] concept exist before the British or not? Yes well in the the the the short answer is that the the

[00:13:23] word India referring to everything south of the Himalayas is present in Greek texts from 2500 years

[00:13:32] ago so there's a historian Herodotus who's also known as the father of history and the father

[00:13:40] of lies as a result he actually refers to India specifically and his information was filtering

[00:13:46] from Persia because at that time the Persian Empire was very large and on one side it bordered with India

[00:13:53] and on the other side it bordered with Greece so that's why the Greeks use the word India it's

[00:14:00] a Greek word India. Oh India is a Greek word. So clearly it existed before the British left

[00:14:07] India or even before they arrived there it's an ancient word ironically that's why the British

[00:14:15] used it because it was the only correct term for the place but it was a Greek word derived from

[00:14:24] Sanskrit referring to the Hindus River which in Sanskrit is Sindhu so with an S and the S was

[00:14:32] dropped and replaced with an H by the Persians by the Iranians the Greeks couldn't pronounce the H

[00:14:40] so they dropped it and became India and that's the term that was used and so India without an S

[00:14:49] or an H is the Greek form specifically. Interesting before we go more into this I wanted to know

[00:14:57] your interest in the paper that you did because you your expertise is in Byzantine. Yes exactly and

[00:15:06] what made you write a paper and what paper was that please tell everybody. Well there has been

[00:15:15] an acceleration in

[00:15:19] collaboration between Greece and India in the last two years and among the aspects

[00:15:31] which the two countries want to collaborate on was the question of culture so the first question

[00:15:37] is has there been collaboration in the past between India and Greece very basically so a

[00:15:44] conference was organized in JNU which was the first episode in exactly the first episode in this

[00:15:50] series of conferences with a Greek delegation and an Indian delegation and myself and my wife as well

[00:15:59] and it was throughout the ages it talked about the time from let's say the Greco-Indian kingdoms

[00:16:07] and the period of the Gupta Empire then later the Mogul Empire so it covered a large framework. The

[00:16:17] hole that was missing was the period of Byzantium and the reason why I proposed the paper and why

[00:16:23] it's interesting is that the Greeks did have contacts with India when India became predominantly

[00:16:32] Hindu and that was specifically in the Byzantine era so the Byzantines the Byzantine Empire is

[00:16:42] defined by when the Roman Empire decided to move its capital from Rome in Italy to Constantinople

[00:16:49] which is now Istanbul in Turkey. When they moved there moving east they had an interest in

[00:16:55] the links with the east including India and they established diplomatic embassies that's

[00:17:02] very probably how chess reached the west because obviously chess is an Indian game

[00:17:10] the Chhatrangya and the Byzantines used a Greek word derived from Sanskrit so the game was coming

[00:17:19] from India not from Iran so that's so there are elements of direct connection

[00:17:28] but what's extraordinary is that it's a connection not specifically with the

[00:17:32] Buddhist world as it had been before but specifically with a new precisely Gupta Empire

[00:17:41] with different interests and specifically with Vishnu etc with other focus let's say.

[00:17:51] So when someone says to you that India as a concept did not or geographical concept did

[00:17:58] not exist before the British arrived in the unified India what would be your historical

[00:18:04] reference response with historical reference? Well I think that's really that's I think it's

[00:18:11] to be honest it's very unfair assessment it's an unfair assessment to India

[00:18:18] but I think it's ironically it's an unfair assessment to the British because the

[00:18:25] geographic concept of India was known from the earliest times the fact that India went

[00:18:32] through different political phases is a different point India was always India in the Greek text and

[00:18:39] it was there it was not somewhere else Italy has a parallel history Italy has always existed as

[00:18:49] a place that one refers to Italy but it was unified in 1860 so it became a country with

[00:18:57] single legal system let's say later on but it was referred to as Italy in the 14th century long before

[00:19:06] and everyone knew that was that was Italy so somehow it's it's not always a problem.

[00:19:13] Give me references in the Byzantine text that would prove what you're saying and give us

[00:19:19] stories that is most interesting actually. I guess well the the thing is that we have a wonderful

[00:19:25] we have a and give a timeline what timeline are we talking? Well the period the the paper I gave I

[00:19:31] talked from the fourth century to the 11th century so that's the time when the Roman Empire dropped

[00:19:36] paganism and became Christian right so it's the creation of Christianity with the emperor

[00:19:41] Constantine but there are two anecdotes I would say there was an emperor in the 10th century

[00:19:49] who clearly understood that his son was not very good at following the court ceremonial.

[00:19:56] Too many court ceremonies were going on so he wrote a book describing them all so we have

[00:20:02] the book of the ceremonies one of these ceremonies describes how to greet the embassies from India

[00:20:11] and how to write to them when you write a polite letter you would say you know

[00:20:18] the two emperors Constantine the Romanos which gives a date around 920 AD so it's interesting

[00:20:26] so it's before the Sultanate of Delhi but after the Gupta Empire so it's an interesting phase

[00:20:33] and there were direct links Constantinople India say they would write and say to

[00:20:41] to the ruler of India our dear friend and then they would continue their official letter

[00:20:47] but he had the official term the designation was our beloved friend so there were good relations

[00:20:56] and part of the reason was the difficulty that the Byzantines had in the people in India had

[00:21:04] of keeping the trade routes open when there were Persians and people in the Arabian peninsula

[00:21:12] in the middle that's the reason why the Byzantines and the Indians were in touch

[00:21:18] what was the difficulty precisely the fact that the the Persians and the people in the Arabian

[00:21:26] peninsula would not allow trade to happen they would block the ships or they would take the

[00:21:34] goods and sell them on themselves and so the the Byzantines and the Indians were trying to keep

[00:21:41] trade routes open one of the famous trade routes was the one that used the monsoons

[00:21:50] that allowed direct navigation and rather quick navigation from southern India all the way to

[00:21:58] let's say Somalia approximately and then Ethiopia and then up so how would they find

[00:22:06] how did they find a way out of not being looted in that peninsula what was the alternative

[00:22:12] well it became more and more difficult but there is evidence of commerce because in the

[00:22:17] Delhi museum there is a coin from 1045 which for some reason people haven't really studied

[00:22:24] but if you have a coin from 1045 that's a coin that didn't exist in 1042 I know it's obvious

[00:22:32] but it means that it was created after a certain date and then it reached India so there was commerce

[00:22:40] there was trade what are the most extraordinary aspects is that we see that's actually the

[00:22:47] only time we have a real influence of Greek on Sanskrit there are Greek words that enter

[00:22:52] Sanskrit and its astronomical terms there's a great Indian astronomer from the sixth century

[00:22:59] who starts using Greek names of planets and Greek names for measurements of the planets

[00:23:07] and he writes this in a book called the romaka siddhanta so the Byzantine wisdom

[00:23:15] and there's another book called the paulisa siddhanta which means the wisdom of Paul a Paul came from

[00:23:23] the Byzantine Empire so it's clear there was a connection and they knew it it's just us

[00:23:29] we're not very good we forgot things that are interesting we are good at forgetting

[00:23:34] but that's the problem with history yeah and remember the wrong things we forget the right

[00:23:38] things and that's a funny thing because it's a it's a contact and friendship between two nations

[00:23:45] that are distant but are intellectually curious of one another though the life of Buddha was

[00:23:53] translated into Greek we had stories that were also translated into Greek from from Sanskrit

[00:24:01] so there were contacts I always imagine people at an embassy what happens once you've said what

[00:24:09] you need to say that's so important well you go out and you have dinner with your newly acquired

[00:24:14] friends and you start telling stories you say this is the story that's come out most recently

[00:24:20] this is the game we play like chess this is what we play and that's I think that's also a form

[00:24:26] of communication very interesting you said Shatranj yeah is the word the game came from India

[00:24:34] but at what period I mean we often associate Shatranj with the Islamic period yes but it's a

[00:24:44] Sanskrit word it means the four the four corners so in Sanskrit so it's not that thing they paid

[00:24:51] Mahabharat didn't they yes exactly so there are images there are miniatures showing chess in a

[00:24:59] Hindu context specifically so the Greek word doesn't seem to come from Shatranj it seems to come more

[00:25:07] from from the an earlier form of the same word which is Shatranj

[00:25:24] Shatranj is the Persian form but in Persian it doesn't mean anything in Sanskrit it does

[00:25:32] so that's also that that's very typical of the Greek world too words have meaning

[00:25:38] so every culture is ancient every culture has a distant past but not every culture writes it down

[00:25:46] the Indians and the Greeks have this aspect in common of writing and referring to what interests

[00:25:52] them over the centuries we have ancient texts from India we have ancient texts from Greece

[00:25:59] not every culture does that so there's an interest in language in communication

[00:26:05] and sometimes saying you know we know better so we're going to write it down

[00:26:10] but that's an interesting way of dealing with one's own culture

[00:26:16] um very interesting to hear that India is a concept had the way and the manner in which it existed

[00:26:22] but today when um when you say Bharat yes and in words is India when we say when you hear

[00:26:32] this whole thing about India edging to change their name to Bharat how does it speak to you

[00:26:38] because you have studied this well the thing is that there are countries that are referred to from

[00:26:46] there's a way of referring to oneself and then there's a way other people refer to you

[00:26:51] in Greece for example most European languages refer to Greece with a word that sounds like

[00:26:58] Greece, Grecia in Italian, Gürza in Serbian or words like that in Greece it's called

[00:27:06] helas or elada that's how the Greeks refer to themselves so that's why we talk about

[00:27:12] Hellenistic or uh Hellenic because that's how the Greeks refer to themselves Armenia is another

[00:27:19] case uh we tend to talk about Armenia but they refer to themselves as Haya Stan or Hai

[00:27:27] so the words which are very different so if India prefers to refer to itself as Bharata with a very

[00:27:35] ancient uh denomination which appears in the Mahabharata and in various uh ancient texts

[00:27:42] in classical Sanskrit that's India's choice and it's it's right uh Turkey recently has

[00:27:51] changed by law its name to Turki so one's no longer allowed to refer to Turkey, it's Turkey

[00:27:59] even in English one should say Turki so I think it's the right of every country to refer to

[00:28:06] themselves as they want there is a slight uh colonial aspect if that's what the debate is

[00:28:13] about because India is what in Greek you'd call an exonym it's uh it's the name you give I've seen

[00:28:21] from abroad it's what the Greeks refer to when they reached India when they would communicate with

[00:28:27] Indians they'll say you are India but it's their word and so it is so this whole thing I think

[00:28:37] we feel and it is happening a lot in the world where they just want to

[00:28:45] authenticate their identity if you like isn't it and stamp as their own do you see a kind of an

[00:28:55] identity crisis or some why why is there so much changing of names wanting to change that name

[00:29:02] and authenticating that identity yes I think that it's the yes there's there's an aspect where people

[00:29:13] get they're they're troubled to see other countries speaking about them in a different way or

[00:29:23] the the perception of not being treated as an equal is a is a strange perception because

[00:29:31] whenever you're dealing with another country whichever country you are

[00:29:35] they're bound not to understand you because they're a different country it's just that simple but

[00:29:41] sometimes it feels offensive and that that is completely understandable but that's something which

[00:29:50] I mean in Europe one sees that a lot you know the the French with the Belgians they're like

[00:29:56] you don't understand me or the Germans with the French or the Italians within

[00:30:01] Italy itself each region is always making jokes in front of other regions

[00:30:08] it is true that what is interesting in the case of Greece and India is that authenticity or a

[00:30:17] sort of genuine self-perception is linked with an ancient past so if you find the ancient way of

[00:30:28] referring to yourself we must stick with that because I think what's interesting is and that's

[00:30:35] why I'm interested in India and Greece is the idea that the future is colored by the past

[00:30:42] so that is a very interesting idea we don't want to repeat the same mistakes

[00:30:49] yes there's an element of we were there before we know how it's going to go but it's having a

[00:30:55] precedent is very important you don't want to in one's own life one chooses to do things based

[00:31:05] on the mistakes once done in the past yes I was about to actually ask you what interested you

[00:31:11] in studying the Greek and India connection or Greece and India connection really

[00:31:18] and yes well this this extraordinary connection I didn't realize that there was

[00:31:25] direct contact between the two cultures the thing which is very striking I

[00:31:33] studied a lot of ancient Greek and the closest language to ancient Greek is actually Sanskrit

[00:31:40] so there are just extraordinary amount of parallels between the two languages

[00:31:46] and so that is something astonishing in itself and by the way it's it's something which the

[00:31:55] some of the British who went to India cheated a bit because when they reached India

[00:32:02] they could study Sanskrit because they'd studied a lot of ancient Greek before

[00:32:07] so they it was not entirely impossible they weren't struggling with a very difficult language

[00:32:14] that task was made a bit easier that's why one started having English people

[00:32:18] who would know Sanskrit because the leap was not that that big so that contact is extraordinary

[00:32:27] and also the fact that both cultures think that the most important aspects of civilization

[00:32:33] come from them so yes that's the whole idea of we were the most ancient actually in the world which

[00:32:41] is really growing a world that is really becoming global and one finding scrounging for your own

[00:32:50] identity and saying you know what we were the ancient civilization which is with

[00:32:57] is where all this rhetoric and narrative is coming from maybe yes but I think that

[00:33:03] what is really quite extraordinary and maybe a source of that something that one should

[00:33:10] think about is the fact that there are now the countries that really divided into two groups

[00:33:15] you have the countries like Greece and India who who think the past is extremely relevant

[00:33:22] for their own identity and for the future and the contact with other cultures

[00:33:28] and then there are people there are countries that think that we must eliminate everything to do

[00:33:33] with the past because that is an obstacle to the future so well in many countries in Europe

[00:33:43] the study of history and geography has become optional really yes and it's well in in France

[00:33:52] and in Germany and that creates a problem because when you hear people for example

[00:34:00] in the Indian foreign ministry like the foreign minister of India they will talk about

[00:34:05] the geographic position of India and the fact that that defines

[00:34:11] India's policy or they will talk about the past of India as defining the policy

[00:34:19] but India is confronting countries that are saying geography in history don't count

[00:34:25] so that means that you have people at the same table who are speaking two different languages

[00:34:30] and that's difficult because it's not a question about being different it's a question they're speaking

[00:34:37] two different languages so they can't they can't bridge the differences because they're not speaking

[00:34:44] together but why no interest in history and geography because they think of it as a problem

[00:34:52] which is a is something that blocks the moving forward ashamed no not ashamed they just think it's

[00:35:03] irrelevant how is it why I know it's very difficult for us to understand but that's why it's

[00:35:12] it's very usual to meet people who don't know well sometimes also in this country in the UK

[00:35:21] history is problematic I could give a very concrete example given the question of India

[00:35:31] few few people are interested or are aware that the reason why the English have any contact

[00:35:38] with India is because of Charles II's wife was Portuguese and therefore had a Bombay

[00:35:50] Bombay was a Portuguese colony that's the only reason why the English have any contact

[00:35:55] and link with India is because of the Portuguese wife of Charles II but that means that England

[00:36:02] depended on the Portuguese trade routes which were much older and rather important for India

[00:36:11] even for Sri Lanka and even for Calcutta for different cities not just Mumbai or Bombay so

[00:36:20] that's something which is very important today now but

[00:36:27] that it's not being considered a Portuguese colony that's important in this aspect is South Africa

[00:36:35] so that has an Indian connection too so that's why history is important when you studied India for

[00:36:43] your paper and your research was it what is it that you learned about it that was new fresh

[00:36:51] or amazing or something that you well I was uh well what I was really astonished by was obviously I had

[00:37:01] to uh to a crash course reading some classical Indian literature which was not Vedic so something

[00:37:09] more recent so Kalidasan poets like that and what surprised me very much was the Indian

[00:37:16] theater from the classical Sanskrit period yeah exactly so then so these were genres that I was

[00:37:26] interested in so a type of literature I like literature very much rather than history and

[00:37:32] the other thing which I was curious about was Kalidasa talks about the Ragu dynasty and the

[00:37:40] question of the conquests in the northwest and the invasions from there and the fact that he talks

[00:37:47] about peoples that came from the northwest called the Huna that the Byzantines had problems with

[00:37:54] all the way in the west in Europe so the Sanskrit texts are talking about the same problems

[00:38:02] that the Greek texts at the same time are but at a huge distance so these vast migrations

[00:38:09] of people north of the Himalayas and how they reach Europe, Hungary, Turkey and how they affect India

[00:38:20] all the way to to Delhi but the Greeks and the Indians are writing about the same people

[00:38:26] and who are these people so that the technical called the well they used to be called the

[00:38:31] heftalight hunts then it goes on but there are what is it today uh today it's the people

[00:38:37] who speak languages like like Turkish or Uzbek or Kazakh or Turkmen so it's really a very wide area

[00:38:45] but also Hungarian in English we talk about Attila the Hun as a symbol of someone who

[00:38:51] was really quite a strong leader well Attila the Hun is the same as Huna the people who were

[00:38:59] in the area of Afghanistan and let's say Pakistan and who were trying to enter

[00:39:08] in the area around Delhi effectively and that Kalidasa writes about my god so the problem of

[00:39:18] all these turkeys and and and and and all all these people where Pakistan is today and everywhere

[00:39:26] the problem of them entering Delhi what is today done the foreign minister of India pointed it out

[00:39:34] that one has to just step back and say geography is geography the Himalayas are very difficult to cross

[00:39:42] which is why it's the land of snow isn't it and so what's very important in that chain of

[00:39:51] mountains is that there's a dip the famous northwest passage which is the it's the only real

[00:40:00] route of access and that's that's how it is it's interesting that there are Sanskrit texts that

[00:40:08] talk about this wow so what problem we had at the time of time when Kalidas wrote we pretty

[00:40:17] much have the same kind of is that right to say that it's not it's not it's not a problem it's the

[00:40:23] fact that that's where I think it's important to make a distinction we're not saying there is

[00:40:30] the same problem we're saying there are the same dynamics there's only one way to go

[00:40:36] north of India and it's that way or there's only one way of entering India

[00:40:40] and it's that way that's how it is and it's always been like that and you're not going to move the

[00:40:48] mountains so obviously the great poets the great writers write about that the Greeks do the same

[00:40:56] they describe geographic situations or movements of people Alexander the great conquest of Persia

[00:41:05] it's very interesting because he showed that once you get going you you can just move along until

[00:41:13] you reach the Hindust River and then it's more complicated okay my last bit you with all this

[00:41:20] packed knowledge of studying from Kalidas to Gupta and to everybody when you reached India

[00:41:26] what was your what what is your thought about the country oh I loved it to be honest it was

[00:41:32] my dream since a long time to go to India and it was I was expecting to have a wonderful time

[00:41:41] and it was better than what I expected because did you like the kiosk the smell the sound

[00:41:47] yes but also I like the fact that people were very the people I met were very polite

[00:41:53] so it was easy to to interact and it was relaxed calm and and there was this you could tell that

[00:42:05] there's this background which is always there you know this a long past is something that

[00:42:12] sometimes is a relaxing element because you feel more sure of yourself if you have a longer past

[00:42:20] I want to end up by saying tell me in few lines

[00:42:27] your response to people who want to debate the fact that India was unified the way it was

[00:42:34] by the Britishers yeah I'm not sure that's the the case I mean the way the the English and the

[00:42:42] British and then the UK entered India and then established a presence there was not really systematic

[00:42:51] it's a very complicated story and also from a British point of view it's very complicated how it went

[00:43:01] so they weren't they didn't enter to create a concept they just happened to be there

[00:43:09] thank you so very much and on that note there is a rapid high five a section in which I will ask you

[00:43:17] some rapid questions don't look so sad no no there's a reward I'll give you a high five

[00:43:25] fantastic

[00:43:35] um what is India for you in one word calm calm really people find it chaotic you found calm there

[00:43:45] yes why what was it precisely that there's a I've been to other countries which seems

[00:43:54] chaotic and they were created anxiety having a different way of organizing things does not mean

[00:44:02] chaos how wonderful how wonderful I wish more people see this well what is the one thing about

[00:44:13] India that western people do not get that it's it's a it's a universe I mean the fact that you have

[00:44:23] so many different types of culture and traditions and populations living within India

[00:44:32] means that from my point of view India does not have time to deal with other cultures because

[00:44:39] you're busy trying to figure out all your different internal dynamics so I think that's the main thing

[00:44:47] that is difficult to see from abroad it's not the United States it's not Australia it's just

[00:44:53] an immensely compact set of different worlds so I think that's what's difficult for an outsider

[00:45:01] to understand what is it about your studying so much of history Greek Latin and so much about

[00:45:10] so many cultures taught you which you apply in your own life that a language reflects a culture

[00:45:23] so a language is is a good way of having the basic what in America you call the one-on-one course

[00:45:32] to a different culture that maybe you don't know so studying language seeing what how people express

[00:45:39] themselves really gives you a small insight into a world you don't know so I think that's

[00:45:48] that's therefore you should conserve your language isn't it yeah it means that language is is important

[00:45:54] but it means one shouldn't have a rationalistic view of language you're not imposing we must be

[00:46:02] different and regular it's not that it's the fact that even funny expressions jokes can tell you

[00:46:10] more about another people than reading a whole history book

[00:46:17] India is really moving very fast it's the race to the economy it's in the top five and all of that

[00:46:25] what is the one thing you feel they should retain in this race to be becoming modern

[00:46:32] and well the short answer would be their roots so obviously I think a way a way of unifying

[00:46:41] a country with so many different cultures is to find cultural aspects which are in common

[00:46:47] to most people in in India and to focus that at a school level so that everyone knows

[00:46:55] a set of things that makes them say I guess you went to school in another region or another state

[00:47:03] you know that too but you are common and what would that common be for you you think

[00:47:09] well obviously I tend to focus on ancient languages I mean most languages in India

[00:47:15] so you think everyone should learn Sanskrit yeah yes I mean obviously that's my point but

[00:47:22] what I was very interested in is is that in India you have a law protecting all the ancient languages

[00:47:30] so I think you've declared six languages as being ancient it's not a question of everyone

[00:47:36] learning the same thing protecting languages protecting culture yes it's and it gives access

[00:47:42] to the past so it allows people who are young to actually read about their roots there are some

[00:47:49] cultures that have strongly modernized their language to the extent that they can't read

[00:47:54] their past texts and that sometimes is a way of really distancing oneself from the past but that's

[00:48:01] not what should happen with India yeah maybe India should stick with its roots that will actually

[00:48:09] is a pathway to many languages even European isn't it yes exactly but it's become less

[00:48:16] less usual in Europe to do that very few people study the past languages in Europe now

[00:48:22] which is a problem because culturally Greek and Latin played a huge role and it's one of

[00:48:28] few aspects that unifies all the European continent indeed okay my very last one yes

[00:48:35] having studied so much so many histories so many languages lived in so many places

[00:48:42] what is the one unifying thing you find in human nature are all humans what are they connected by

[00:48:54] or is there anything or are we defined by our culture or whether environment we live in

[00:48:59] well I think the the the culture and the environment plays a very very big role

[00:49:06] but I think one one tends to forget that the very basic interest of the person is

[00:49:13] a Trump's even culture so one can communicate with people from different cultures because

[00:49:21] sometimes they want to communicate with you so this can build bridges but also break barriers

[00:49:29] hmm what is that one connecting factor in human nature I think everyone's just trying to have a

[00:49:37] good life so the question is the definition so how do you achieve that and sometimes conflicts

[00:49:46] derive from different definitions of what a good life is and sometimes these conflicts are unnecessary

[00:49:56] other times they're unavoidable but sometimes it's just we're just creating problems for no reason

[00:50:02] because most of us are not really looking for a fight or a problem most of us just want to have

[00:50:11] a normal life a comfortable life uh to aspire to achieve what they think is important

[00:50:19] but that again boils down to the good life so the human nature is to have a good comfortable life

[00:50:27] yes not not comfortable in the lazy sense but in the sense that you know it means you can look

[00:50:33] after the people you you care for or that your friends around you are also happy because

[00:50:40] it's very distressing to have someone that you love who's sad or someone who's a friend

[00:50:45] who's in trouble okay and this is just an extra but I do want to I always ask one

[00:50:51] what of our ancient history informs our present character or national character or a character

[00:51:00] and a human being so how would you say an Indian person what defines an Indian person one character

[00:51:06] or a Greek or a Roman in uh well I think the the the roots play an absolutely

[00:51:14] huge role that there was a very funny definition of common sense common sense are the prejudices

[00:51:20] you acquire before the age of 18 which is an interesting way of looking at it it means

[00:51:27] that each country has its own common sense based on what they've been taught at school

[00:51:32] or taught by the families or by their friends before the age of 18 then after 18 you travel and

[00:51:39] you retain the common sense that you had where and how you grew up so the the way you studied

[00:51:48] the past at school or at home is very important because it really shapes the automatic response

[00:51:56] not the logical thought out one but your instinct yeah you told me once that you know studying in

[00:52:03] Italy is different to studying in Oxford the way they approach exactly and it's it's one how how

[00:52:08] tell us quickly well I was delighted to study in the different systems the the Italians have

[00:52:17] the Italians are very creative and very uh abolient in many ways so what they focus on

[00:52:25] is achieving a great amount of knowledge they need data they're always looking for elements

[00:52:33] to know to explore the world because they're curious uh in Oxford there was an interest

[00:52:41] more in in uh in focusing on how to interpret uh that point of view but that sometimes

[00:52:49] interpretation depends on common sense which is a problematic issue and then in Colombia

[00:52:56] and Colombia in New York the one thing which anyone who's lived in the United States

[00:53:03] I think appreciates is the enthusiasm whatever one thinks of the US in good or bad

[00:53:11] America is very often enthusiastic so they will approach a new subject

[00:53:15] India thinking it's it's very interesting uh India well uh India I don't uh I've never lived there

[00:53:25] but the impression I get is is uh there's a tremendous curiosity about the outside world

[00:53:34] there's a curiosity to be about the outside world while not while not having that outside world

[00:53:44] alter the basic culture as long as we can have our samosa jalebi something familiar

[00:53:52] as long as you can have your familiar aspect there's a curiosity but the economic expansion

[00:53:58] and the political expansion and diplomatic efforts show an interest in the world outside

[00:54:05] which as I said India is very big it's not it's not necessary you have so many things going

[00:54:11] on within India but this is a phase of great expansion of curiosity on a lighter note as I was

[00:54:18] saying that we wherever we go we'll make sure that we carry our culture and we carry our food yes

[00:54:26] oh that's very good thank you so very much that was ah I was not very hard

[00:54:32] thank you very much Frederick

[00:54:35] Lauritsian yes no

[00:54:36] Laurit say it again Lauritsen Lauritsen when you say it then I can say it yes

[00:54:42] Frederick Lauritsen yes Lauritsen okay get it thank you Frederick

[00:54:51] Lauritsian yes again didn't get it say it once more Lauritsen Lauritsen yes thank you very much

[00:54:58] Frederick has helped us given us historical context why India as a concept existed before

[00:55:05] the British arrived there and he himself loves it for its calm what do you love it for please do

[00:55:12] write into me and if you aspire to go there why would you want to anything all your thoughts

[00:55:18] are very very welcome please write into us follow our subscribe like as they say our

[00:55:23] YouTube channel LaVina Tandon official on Twitter and on LinkedIn I can be found as LaVina Tandon on

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