TRF in TO

[00:00:04] Welcome to the Recruitment Flex with Serge and Shelley. I'm Serge. And I'm Shelley. And

[00:00:11] we talk all things recruitment starting right now. Bonjour and welcome to the Recruitment

[00:00:19] Flex. We're here recording in Toronto, Canada. Do you like Toronto, Shelley? Well, it's

[00:00:26] certainly better than Calgary today. Yes. Oh my gosh. The trees here are starting

[00:00:30] to bloom. They don't have any snow here. And Calgary's hit with a snow storm as

[00:00:36] we record today. Yes, we do get snow storms every once in a while, but it's not normal.

[00:00:41] We'll be back to normal next week in Calgary. But Toronto's looking great. The Toronto Maple

[00:00:46] Leafs are playing game six tomorrow in the playoffs. So we're going to see what happens

[00:00:50] there. But Shelley, this is part of a very busy May and June for us. This is the start

[00:00:58] of our travel. We're very excited to host a dinner tomorrow with some of Canada's

[00:01:03] biggest banks in coordination with our friends at Plum, with humanly.io and AMS. Are you

[00:01:12] excited for that, Shelley? I am so excited. We are going to be talking to some of the

[00:01:19] senior most leaders in talent acquisition in Canada and just having an opportunity

[00:01:24] to keep our finger on the pulse of TA leaders challenges they're facing. What is

[00:01:31] the reality of the Canadian market? What are they doing? And coming together with such

[00:01:38] amazing brain power and a few drinks. Yes, I think it's going to be a really robust

[00:01:45] discussion for sure. Yeah, it's interesting because these are all senior leaders, big

[00:01:50] organizations that have seen all of it. So I think we're going to learn a lot, which

[00:01:55] is what I'm excited. It's really good to hear exactly what's happening out there in the

[00:01:59] field when it comes to recruiting, especially at big banks that have massive

[00:02:03] brands. So we will let you know next week how that goes. But we have more events.

[00:02:08] And next week we're going to be at Unleash in Las Vegas. And Shelley, I've got

[00:02:14] bad news. So I was nominated to go jump off the Vegas tower, but it starts at

[00:02:21] one o'clock and we land at one o'clock. So I don't think I'll be able to make

[00:02:26] it. Oh, darn. Oh, darn. I have no idea why anyone would want to do that. But I'm

[00:02:34] actually happy that our flights just didn't line up with the time because they

[00:02:37] changed the time. Unleash though, I think is going to be really good in that we now

[00:02:43] have connections with some of the top technologies that are going to be there,

[00:02:48] as well as being hosted by a number of very interesting TA tech firms. So that's

[00:02:56] going to be awesome. I think the more time we can get talking to TA tech leaders,

[00:03:01] TA tech creators, understand what's happening in the US market because

[00:03:05] anything that happens in the US couple years later, we're going to see it

[00:03:09] coming into Canada.

[00:03:10] Sometimes sooner.

[00:03:11] Like we've seen sometimes that it's sooner, but I agree. I'm looking

[00:03:15] forward to it and I'm looking forward to these events. So we're going to go to

[00:03:19] Jovio, which we had our CEO, KJ on the podcast this week, which if you haven't

[00:03:26] listened to that one, go listen to it. It's one of my favorite episodes. And then

[00:03:31] we've got TA tech coming. What are the dates, Shelley?

[00:03:34] That is June 4th to 6th. Again, that is at the International Spy Museum.

[00:03:39] And we went through like an overview with the organizers. That is the

[00:03:43] TA tech executive team. And walking through the speakers, the topics, it is

[00:03:51] mind blowing. I was so excited to see and know who's going to be speaking on

[00:03:56] what topics. And for you and I to be the emcees of the event, what an

[00:04:01] opportunity, small audience as well, because it is limited to I think

[00:04:06] 330 or 350?

[00:04:08] 350. So what an opportunity to have some really meaningful conversations.

[00:04:15] And if you'd like to go, you can get $400 off your registration by using

[00:04:23] the friends 25 discount code when you go to register at the TA tech

[00:04:27] website.

[00:04:29] There's only a few tickets left. So I definitely recommend you move really

[00:04:33] quickly because to your point, the folks that are going to be there are

[00:04:37] the industry heavy hitters. And there's a lot of knowledge that we can

[00:04:41] gain. So looking forward to it, Shelley, you were telling me a story on

[00:04:46] the flight here about your daughter Brooklyn and her challenges that

[00:04:51] she's had recently with job scammers.

[00:04:54] It was no coincidence. She was applying to jobs. And this was on

[00:05:00] Friday. She had a list and being related to me or my daughter. Yeah,

[00:05:05] very organized. So she had a list and she applied directly on company

[00:05:09] sites. And then she went to indeed registered, put in her information

[00:05:15] and uploaded a PDF within hours. She had a text message from a recruiter

[00:05:21] who said they were with Robert Haff and like, basically we have a job

[00:05:26] for you. So she comes to me and says, is this legit? So I look up

[00:05:30] the Robert Haff website. And then I look up on LinkedIn, there is

[00:05:35] somebody by that name at Robert Haff. So I reached out to him and

[00:05:40] said, Hey, I'm not sure if this is you. We got a text message from

[00:05:44] you. And it seems a little fishy. He got back to me and he

[00:05:48] said, It's not me. I'm sorry. It appears that the scammers

[00:05:55] are now crawling websites. Like how they got her phone number

[00:05:59] like her cell number is an absolute mystery. But it was within

[00:06:03] hours of her and she only applied directly on three companies, as

[00:06:08] I say, and on indeed. So it was really creepy. Now since then,

[00:06:13] she's had two more fake job offers. But what's different

[00:06:18] this time? Is they're actually using a company name and using

[00:06:24] the recruiters first name. And the last one came from

[00:06:28] somebody who said, Hi, it's Lisa from Indeed. Interesting. Yes.

[00:06:32] Because there is a Lisa at Indeed. Well, of course, there's

[00:06:35] probably many leases at Indeed. But if you got a text, so

[00:06:39] she's 20 that said, Hi, it's Lisa from Indeed. Are you still

[00:06:43] interested in getting a job? I mean, if you didn't know any

[00:06:47] better, yeah, you'd probably respond. So it was freaky.

[00:06:52] Yeah, like the only thing that I can see is how did they

[00:06:55] access her cell phone number and it's got to be when she

[00:06:59] inputted her resume on Indeed to be able to do the quick

[00:07:03] apply, which goes in their resume database. Is that not

[00:07:06] frightening? It is. This is something that definitely I'm

[00:07:10] glad we're calling this out. And to your point, she is very

[00:07:13] fortunate that she has someone that is very savvy in the

[00:07:16] industry to know that okay, there's something fishy out

[00:07:19] there. But when most people know, like just a 20 year old

[00:07:23] student looking for summer work, exactly. It's the second

[00:07:27] time they apply for a job and they get this, they're going to

[00:07:30] take it's real. But it's not uncommon to your point that

[00:07:34] people are using real names. I've seen this before. I've

[00:07:36] seen offer letters with the CFO name like a real CFO at

[00:07:42] the company. It's not uncommon. They're getting

[00:07:43] smarter and smarter. But it's something that we have

[00:07:47] to be very wary of because if they're using Robert

[00:07:51] Half, other brands, they could be using your brand as

[00:07:54] well, which you don't want to be associated with any

[00:07:57] type of scamming. Yeah, it is. And so I don't know how

[00:08:02] companies would find out unless it's like a friend or

[00:08:06] relative or exactly. So I reached out to those

[00:08:10] recruiters and let them know that somebody is

[00:08:13] masquerading as them and reaching out to

[00:08:16] candidates and they were like, there's nothing we

[00:08:18] can do about it. Was the response? This is a perfect

[00:08:21] segue into in the new segment. Shelly, do you

[00:08:25] want to take the first one because it ties in really

[00:08:27] well? Yes, LinkedIn starts verifying recruiter

[00:08:31] profiles. So it was reported this week that

[00:08:34] LinkedIn has a verification currently required for

[00:08:38] recruiters in Canada and the US and Mexico. So

[00:08:41] recruiters must provide valid government issued ID

[00:08:44] and a phone number from one of these countries

[00:08:47] and verification includes using Microsoft Entra,

[00:08:51] verified ID, LinkedIn Learning License, work email

[00:08:54] or a LinkedIn recruiter license. And the whole

[00:08:57] aim here is to increase and ensure trust and

[00:09:00] security on the platform, which is absolutely

[00:09:04] crucial. I know a lot of recruiters would be

[00:09:07] very upset if they could not have access to all

[00:09:11] the data on LinkedIn. So I'm certainly glad they're

[00:09:14] making this move. Is this why you're locked out of

[00:09:16] LinkedIn right now? I don't know. I'm honestly

[00:09:20] asking just recently. Just like today or an hour ago.

[00:09:23] Just an hour ago, I was asked to log back in and

[00:09:27] verify but I'm not registered as a recruiter. So

[00:09:30] I'm not a recruiter on LinkedIn. Well, you'd have

[00:09:32] some recruiting elements. You've been a

[00:09:34] recruiter in the past, right? How do they know

[00:09:37] if someone's a recruiter outside of their

[00:09:39] job title, obviously? I have recruitment all

[00:09:43] over my LinkedIn page. I don't know. It is a

[00:09:46] verification that is now going to be required for

[00:09:48] recruiters. Yes, which I think is great. There

[00:09:51] are so many scams and unfortunately this

[00:09:53] industry is challenged by this. No, not just our

[00:09:57] industry. I think it's every industry we are

[00:10:00] plagued whether it's bots or any sort of

[00:10:03] automation programs that are reaching out to

[00:10:06] candidates trying to scam people for jobs.

[00:10:10] True, but you're hitting people that are

[00:10:13] vulnerable. They're looking for a job. They get

[00:10:16] that email and we've heard the stories of

[00:10:18] people applying for thousands of jobs and

[00:10:20] getting no callbacks and suddenly you're

[00:10:22] applying for jobs. You start getting

[00:10:24] callbacks. You get excited. You get a

[00:10:25] little bit blurry as far as oh wow I

[00:10:28] might have a job type of thing and I

[00:10:30] think it makes you maybe less suspicious

[00:10:35] and if you're getting an email and you

[00:10:38] can see that they're a verified recruiter

[00:10:40] then yes trust goes up. Yes, smart move

[00:10:44] LinkedIn way to go. Smart move talking about

[00:10:47] not so smart move in my opinion the US

[00:10:50] moves to ban TikTok. I don't know what

[00:10:54] I'm going to do because I think I

[00:10:55] spend every night from nine to ten

[00:10:57] before going to bed watching TikToks.

[00:10:59] No, do you really? Yeah, I don't watch

[00:11:01] TV or anything like now we're TikTok.

[00:11:04] I am addicted. I do need to completely

[00:11:06] shut it off but here's the details. The

[00:11:08] US law gives the TikTok parent company

[00:11:11] Bite Dance 270 days to sell TikTok

[00:11:15] to another non-Chinese company. This would

[00:11:19] mean that TikTok remains usable and

[00:11:21] unaffected until January 2025. Really

[00:11:26] what they're saying is national

[00:11:28] security concern related to its Chinese

[00:11:31] ownership which could potentially allow

[00:11:33] data access by the Chinese government.

[00:11:36] If the sale does not occur TikTok will

[00:11:39] be removed from US app stores and web

[00:11:42] access. TikTok definitely plans to pursue

[00:11:45] legal actions against the US

[00:11:47] government to challenge the ban.

[00:11:49] Before I give my opinion what is your

[00:11:52] opinion Shelley? I honestly don't

[00:11:55] understand why they would even try and

[00:11:58] take legal action against the US

[00:12:00] government to what end? Do they think

[00:12:03] they're going to win? Really, they're a

[00:12:05] corporation, they're for profit. Yes, it's

[00:12:08] very popular platform in the US but do

[00:12:11] you really think you're going to win

[00:12:12] against the US government?

[00:12:15] No, I don't think so. No.

[00:12:17] I have a lot of thoughts here.

[00:12:19] Okay, what are your thoughts, Serge?

[00:12:21] If you think about it all American

[00:12:23] apps are banned in China. I think

[00:12:25] free speech is critical and not

[00:12:27] doing what China does is what makes

[00:12:29] the US quite unique but this is

[00:12:32] definitely challenging the status quo.

[00:12:33] I think that's one that a lot of people

[00:12:35] are saying. Obviously, and there's

[00:12:37] different reports that have come out

[00:12:39] from employees that work for TikTok

[00:12:41] and they're like the Chinese

[00:12:42] government is definitely involved and

[00:12:45] is definitely in the data. I don't

[00:12:47] know if that's hearsay or not but

[00:12:49] that would be very concerning and

[00:12:51] we've talked about this before. The

[00:12:53] TikTok in China is completely

[00:12:56] different than TikTok in US, Canada

[00:12:59] or anywhere else where it's very

[00:13:02] focused on entertainment here as in

[00:13:05] China is very focused on education.

[00:13:08] So, in one way are they just trying to

[00:13:10] corrupt the minds of our young folks?

[00:13:13] And that could be argued that their

[00:13:15] algorithm is amazing and how it works

[00:13:17] is very addictive, is very catchy

[00:13:21] but is that a good thing?

[00:13:22] Are they sharing propaganda that we

[00:13:24] don't know about? Are we seeing

[00:13:26] things that are causing

[00:13:29] challenges for the US that hey if it

[00:13:31] wasn't owned by China or Chinese

[00:13:34] company it wouldn't be an issue. So, I

[00:13:37] do see where that's coming from but

[00:13:39] this law passing was not only banning

[00:13:42] TikTok. There's a lot more to it. It

[00:13:45] opens it up for any known US based

[00:13:48] company, social media company to be

[00:13:50] banned in the US which is very scary.

[00:13:53] There is other social networks.

[00:13:54] Telegram is the most popular one

[00:13:57] that's Russian based and is that the

[00:13:59] next step? And then is China actually

[00:14:03] going to allow this to sell, to divest it?

[00:14:07] They might not. Obviously, the owner of

[00:14:09] ByteDance wants to divest it and it's

[00:14:11] probably worth a hundred billion dollars.

[00:14:14] It's worth a lot. I don't know if

[00:14:15] it's a hundred billion but I could see

[00:14:17] TikTok completely disappearing and the

[00:14:20] challenge with that is the

[00:14:21] competitors are just really bad.

[00:14:24] TikTok Reels is a joke.

[00:14:26] Oh, you mean Instagram Reels?

[00:14:28] Oh sorry. Instagram Reels are a joke

[00:14:31] and YouTube shorts are not watchable. I

[00:14:34] don't know if you've tried so I guess in

[00:14:36] one way I hope it gets banned because

[00:14:40] I don't have to watch it and I'll get

[00:14:42] an hour pretty much every night free

[00:14:44] again.

[00:14:45] Seven hours a week back in your life.

[00:14:47] Do we want to jump into the tip of

[00:14:49] the week?

[00:14:49] Show me. Your tip of the week is

[00:14:51] brought to you by Plum.

[00:14:52] Plum knows that when people flourish,

[00:14:54] business thrives. Using science-backed

[00:14:57] insights, Plum aligns human potential

[00:15:00] with job needs allowing you to build

[00:15:02] high-performing teams from a single

[00:15:03] platform. Ideal for improving hiring

[00:15:06] choices, identifying future leaders,

[00:15:09] and offering personalized career advice.

[00:15:11] Plum supports the entire employee

[00:15:13] journey from hire to retire.

[00:15:16] Discover more at plum.io

[00:15:19] So here's my tip of the week.

[00:15:21] I've been thinking a lot about in-house

[00:15:23] referral programs. This is when you

[00:15:26] want to engage your employees in a

[00:15:28] positive way to refer people they know

[00:15:31] to open positions.

[00:15:32] Now, I'm going to be a little controversial.

[00:15:35] I don't believe money should be in

[00:15:37] the equation.

[00:15:38] I believe that when HR gets their hands

[00:15:41] on the money, what ends up happening

[00:15:43] is they want to drip it out to the

[00:15:45] person who made the successful referral

[00:15:48] which is demotivating and

[00:15:51] the other thing is it's usually whatever

[00:15:54] the referral reward was less tax.

[00:15:57] So when the employee who enthusiastically

[00:16:00] referred someone gets their payout,

[00:16:03] it's not the $2,000 that you said it was.

[00:16:06] But at any rate, this is where I think

[00:16:08] things go wrong. So I wanted to offer

[00:16:10] some best practices for internal

[00:16:13] employee referral programs.

[00:16:15] First job one is to communicate

[00:16:18] with the person who made the

[00:16:19] referral at every stage of the process.

[00:16:22] And if you know that person's not

[00:16:24] moving forward, as the hiring manager,

[00:16:26] you are personally communicating

[00:16:29] with that employee saying thank you for

[00:16:31] the referral but what does that cost us?

[00:16:34] Four minutes of your time?

[00:16:36] Yeah. I dare say it has a huge impact

[00:16:40] on people referring somebody they

[00:16:42] know. The other thing is just a

[00:16:44] simple written message,

[00:16:46] thanking that person for making

[00:16:47] referral. The next great thing to do

[00:16:51] for employee referrals is just to

[00:16:53] recognize whether it be in a newsletter

[00:16:56] or up on the screens that just

[00:16:58] acknowledges that hey we've had 30

[00:17:01] people referred to the organization

[00:17:03] this month and sending out a big thank

[00:17:05] you. The last thing, and I think

[00:17:07] this is the most important part,

[00:17:09] this is where employee referral

[00:17:11] programs can really hit their stride

[00:17:14] and that is to hold a day in the life

[00:17:17] programs because if you are working

[00:17:21] in say the call center, how on earth

[00:17:23] would you be expected to know

[00:17:25] what somebody would do if they

[00:17:27] worked in supply chain?

[00:17:29] So a day in the life gives employees

[00:17:31] the opportunity to speak with other

[00:17:33] employees to talk about what does a

[00:17:35] day in my life look like.

[00:17:37] It's a great way to inform so that

[00:17:39] you're not getting people referring

[00:17:41] candidates who work in finance to a

[00:17:44] supply chain job.

[00:17:45] There's my tip of the week.

[00:17:47] Well I'm not going to disagree with

[00:17:49] your tip of the week this week,

[00:17:51] really good one.

[00:17:52] I think we've all implemented referral

[00:17:54] programs and you're right

[00:17:56] most of the time it's a drip.

[00:17:58] If the person's there for 90 days

[00:18:00] you get 30% or 50%

[00:18:02] and after a year you get the other

[00:18:04] one. What a demotivator.

[00:18:06] Just taking the wind out of their

[00:18:07] sales.

[00:18:07] No exactly and in my opinion if

[00:18:11] they hired him or her

[00:18:14] the referer did their job.

[00:18:16] Like their job is to refer someone

[00:18:18] that potentially could hire.

[00:18:19] The job to assess if this is a good

[00:18:21] hire is a hiring manager

[00:18:23] but going a little bit further than

[00:18:25] that.

[00:18:26] Anytime you give money

[00:18:29] it means your culture sucks

[00:18:31] like it does.

[00:18:32] People that really enjoy working

[00:18:34] somewhere will happily refer people

[00:18:38] to come within the organization

[00:18:41] giving referral bonuses is a very

[00:18:44] tricky slope.

[00:18:45] I do not recommend it.

[00:18:47] The real problem doesn't go away

[00:18:49] still a shitty place to work right

[00:18:51] it doesn't change anything.

[00:18:53] So Shelly how about we jump into the

[00:18:56] recruiting insights.

[00:18:57] Recruiting insights brought to you

[00:18:59] by our friends at Mitova.

[00:19:01] Shelly are you tired of the same old

[00:19:03] outsourcing woes?

[00:19:05] Well say hello to nearshoring

[00:19:08] it's like outsourcing but closer

[00:19:10] and it won't make you pull your hair out.

[00:19:12] Picture this top notch IT talent

[00:19:15] from Latin America.

[00:19:16] Many Latin American IT professionals

[00:19:18] have strong English language skills

[00:19:21] and even live in the same time zone

[00:19:22] so no more midnight conference calls

[00:19:25] hallelujah

[00:19:27] plus Latin America's growing tech

[00:19:29] ecosystem

[00:19:30] strong educational institutions

[00:19:32] and a pool of skilled IT

[00:19:34] professionals make it the perfect

[00:19:36] region for recruiting talent.

[00:19:38] I have the perfect company that does this

[00:19:40] and company's name is Mitova.

[00:19:43] They have local experts who handle

[00:19:45] everything from recruiting to HR support.

[00:19:48] So why settle for the same old

[00:19:50] outsourcing blues when you can have

[00:19:53] the nearshoring party with Mitova?

[00:19:56] Look them up at Mitova.com

[00:19:58] and let's get the fiesta started.

[00:20:01] There's an article in the BBC News

[00:20:03] and so these are UK based companies

[00:20:06] called John Lewis and Waitrose.

[00:20:09] This is a department within an

[00:20:10] organization and a supermarket chain

[00:20:13] that has published questions for all

[00:20:15] job levels from customer assistance

[00:20:18] to directors on its website.

[00:20:20] And so the firm's head of talent said

[00:20:23] interviews would be no less rigorous

[00:20:26] but some recruiters argue it could

[00:20:28] remove authenticity from answers.

[00:20:31] You know in a pre-chat GPT world

[00:20:33] there was this thing called Google

[00:20:35] and when you knew you were going for

[00:20:36] an interview you would type into

[00:20:38] Google what are the most common

[00:20:40] interview questions?

[00:20:42] And it would spit out answers for you

[00:20:44] and typically behavioral descriptive

[00:20:46] answers. Here's how to answer this

[00:20:48] question. That's nothing new at all.

[00:20:51] Chat GPT on the other hand where you

[00:20:53] can take the job description and say

[00:20:55] what are the interview questions for

[00:20:57] this job most likely going to be

[00:20:59] and what are some good answers?

[00:21:01] So the whole concept of providing

[00:21:04] interview questions in advance.

[00:21:06] My first reaction was that's probably

[00:21:08] a really good idea because if people

[00:21:10] are going to take the initiative

[00:21:12] to prepare for an interview it doesn't

[00:21:14] mean those are the exact questions

[00:21:16] but you could give them a sense that

[00:21:18] listen here's the five pillars of how

[00:21:20] we make a hiring decision.

[00:21:22] What's wrong with that?

[00:21:23] The questions will be around leadership.

[00:21:25] The questions will be around

[00:21:27] dealing with difficult customers

[00:21:29] or the questions will be around

[00:21:31] how to exceed a customer's

[00:21:33] expectations.

[00:21:35] So this is word for word the question

[00:21:37] we're going to ask you but if you want

[00:21:40] to be prepared and put some thought

[00:21:42] beforehand because there's nothing

[00:21:45] natural about an interview.

[00:21:48] It is the most unnatural situation

[00:21:51] between two human beings one of which

[00:21:54] holds all the power and ability

[00:21:57] to decide whether or not you can pay

[00:21:58] rent next month.

[00:22:00] It is the most stressful event in

[00:22:03] most people's lives and most people

[00:22:05] never forget their interviews.

[00:22:07] If somebody's willing to prepare

[00:22:10] they truly want the job.

[00:22:11] Would this not be a really great way

[00:22:14] of seeing who took that initiative

[00:22:17] who took the time to put some thought

[00:22:20] knowing they'd be asked questions

[00:22:21] in these particular categories

[00:22:23] that are directly relevant to the job too.

[00:22:27] Oh Shelley I had a different viewpoint

[00:22:30] before you went on that rant because

[00:22:32] my little monologue.

[00:22:34] Yeah I actually think you've changed

[00:22:36] my mind on a couple things

[00:22:37] because I was coming in and like oh

[00:22:39] is this another like handing out a

[00:22:41] trophy to everyone type of thing

[00:22:43] but you mentioned something

[00:22:45] interviewing is very unnatural

[00:22:46] and I've said this and you

[00:22:48] disagreed but I still think it's

[00:22:50] true it's basically one person lying

[00:22:53] to the other like we're lying to

[00:22:54] each other in an interview

[00:22:55] and when they say lying maybe that's

[00:22:57] an exaggeration but we're definitely

[00:23:00] setting ourselves up to look the best

[00:23:03] possible and the employers doing the

[00:23:05] same thing.

[00:23:06] But there's a couple things in this

[00:23:07] story that could make sense right

[00:23:09] because they're not sending the

[00:23:12] interview questions to them you

[00:23:13] have to go find them right did I

[00:23:16] understand correctly.

[00:23:17] Okay so that's great because

[00:23:21] like you said you can automatically

[00:23:22] know who did their research

[00:23:24] which is important.

[00:23:26] So I think actually for a lot of their

[00:23:29] roles in this mixture obviously

[00:23:31] grocery stores then they have people

[00:23:32] working in the head offices they're

[00:23:34] doing this for all the roles is what

[00:23:35] I understand.

[00:23:37] I don't think they should do it for

[00:23:38] their corporate office or director roles.

[00:23:41] I think for all the roles that are

[00:23:44] frontline staffing absolutely get them

[00:23:47] set up and prepared as much as

[00:23:49] possible to be successful in that

[00:23:51] interview.

[00:23:52] For director I still think you

[00:23:54] better have your poop in a group as

[00:23:56] they would say you better know what

[00:23:57] you're going to be talking about and

[00:23:58] you should be ready to be surprised

[00:24:02] and be able to adapt to whatever

[00:24:04] questions come.

[00:24:05] I still feel that way with the more

[00:24:07] senior roles but you have changed

[00:24:09] my mind with all the field type

[00:24:12] roles I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:24:16] I believe the underlying motivation

[00:24:18] from these two organizations the

[00:24:22] idea was to help those candidates and

[00:24:25] job competitions where the applicant

[00:24:28] may be neurodivergent.

[00:24:31] And helping them prepare where

[00:24:35] interview anxiety is the reason

[00:24:38] they're not working.

[00:24:39] They just suffer from debilitating

[00:24:42] anxiety and if this is one small

[00:24:44] thing they could do to help alleviate

[00:24:46] that level of stress it will open

[00:24:49] up candidates because it doesn't

[00:24:51] mean you can't do the work it just

[00:24:54] means you are so stressed out from

[00:24:56] the thought of an interview.

[00:24:58] So that was their underlying motivation.

[00:25:01] That makes sense too.

[00:25:02] That makes a lot of sense.

[00:25:03] How many times have you interviewed

[00:25:05] someone you feel they could be a good

[00:25:08] employee they're just really bad at

[00:25:10] interviewing exactly to how you

[00:25:13] described it.

[00:25:14] Do they still deserve to be able to

[00:25:17] work?

[00:25:17] Yeah absolutely they're just for

[00:25:19] whatever they're neurodivergent or

[00:25:22] they have a challenge they have

[00:25:23] interviewing anxiety because

[00:25:25] interviewing is very unnatural and

[00:25:27] even the most seasoned interviewer

[00:25:31] or interviewee it's a little bit

[00:25:32] nerve-wracking so I get that.

[00:25:34] It is and I think good hiring

[00:25:36] decisions are based on multiple

[00:25:38] data points.

[00:25:39] If you're making your entire

[00:25:41] decision on somebody's ability to

[00:25:43] perform under pressure great if

[00:25:45] that's directly relevant to the

[00:25:47] role but for the vast majority

[00:25:50] that shouldn't be the only way you

[00:25:52] make a decision.

[00:25:54] You need to look at their work history

[00:25:55] you need to check their references

[00:25:57] you need to have other conversations

[00:25:59] with them that are not under this

[00:26:01] spotlight of being interviewed and

[00:26:03] how quickly you can come up with a

[00:26:05] good answer and I think assessments

[00:26:08] that will give you the full picture

[00:26:10] of an individual and not just hanging

[00:26:12] everything on your ability to

[00:26:14] interview.

[00:26:15] I'll leave it on this what I

[00:26:17] really like is they're trying

[00:26:19] something different something new

[00:26:21] and if it doesn't work it doesn't work

[00:26:23] but I don't see any risk in doing this

[00:26:26] they can obviously look at the data

[00:26:28] after if this is making an impact

[00:26:31] I love that they're trying so I'm

[00:26:32] going to give them full kudos.

[00:26:35] So I want to move on to the next

[00:26:37] recruiting insight and Shelly you've

[00:26:39] hired people in your lifetime you

[00:26:41] hired me

[00:26:42] I'm not Gen Z but there is some

[00:26:44] growing concerns U.S. employers are

[00:26:48] not ready for Gen Z.

[00:26:50] Here's a couple of quotes that I see

[00:26:52] I simply don't hire them according to

[00:26:54] research that's the attitude of 94%

[00:27:00] of business leaders towards Gen Z

[00:27:02] employees born between 1997 and 2012

[00:27:06] there was 1243 people recently

[00:27:09] surveyed and they feel that Gen Z

[00:27:12] brings a sense of entitlement

[00:27:14] a deficient work ethic and

[00:27:16] subpar communication skills

[00:27:19] that's a little scary right

[00:27:21] so Shelly is this just a situation

[00:27:25] no one wants to work anymore

[00:27:28] or is there some validity to these

[00:27:30] concerns from business leaders

[00:27:33] what's your thoughts here

[00:27:34] I think what spoke most loudly to me

[00:27:36] was first of all decent sample size

[00:27:39] 1243 businesses

[00:27:42] and speaking to business leaders

[00:27:45] the evidence that they cited was half

[00:27:48] of those business leaders reported

[00:27:50] that Gen Z job applicants requested

[00:27:53] salaries topping 100,000 when the

[00:27:56] position paid 70 or less

[00:27:59] so listen we're talking about like my

[00:28:02] kids age 97 to 2012

[00:28:05] that's my kids age they're in their

[00:28:07] early 20s to their mid 20s

[00:28:10] and if you're in your 20s asking for

[00:28:13] a hundred thousand dollars

[00:28:15] when the posted position pays 70

[00:28:19] that's a little out of touch

[00:28:20] yes I think is that anything new

[00:28:22] no listen you know what

[00:28:24] kids coming out of I say kids

[00:28:27] so young people coming out of

[00:28:28] university

[00:28:29] everybody here is the urban legend

[00:28:31] I know a guy over in the

[00:28:33] engineering department who just

[00:28:35] landed a job

[00:28:36] when it's his first job at a

[00:28:37] university and he's getting paid

[00:28:39] 150,000 dollars urban legend

[00:28:42] yeah so they begin to believe it

[00:28:44] they don't even know what they

[00:28:45] don't know

[00:28:46] about what a job pays

[00:28:48] and so to be offended that somebody's

[00:28:51] uninformed or you make them an

[00:28:54] offer

[00:28:55] and they're negotiating 30,000 over

[00:28:57] the pay grade

[00:28:58] is that entitlement

[00:29:00] I don't know

[00:29:02] but these sorts of numbers

[00:29:04] send a very clear message

[00:29:06] that this particular group

[00:29:08] is feeling entitled

[00:29:11] yes and they are going to be 30%

[00:29:15] of our workforce in the coming years

[00:29:18] it's a big portion of our workforce

[00:29:20] so we got to figure out what's going on

[00:29:22] here

[00:29:22] I think I've told you this before Shelley

[00:29:24] that generation has grown up in

[00:29:26] prosperity

[00:29:27] in most ways

[00:29:29] not really any recessions they would

[00:29:30] remember

[00:29:32] everything has been rosy

[00:29:33] it's been a talent scarcity

[00:29:36] market so there's been plenty of jobs

[00:29:39] that's changed

[00:29:40] that's changed in the last year

[00:29:42] and they're finding it very difficult

[00:29:44] because we're hearing all the stories

[00:29:46] of anyone to grudge from university

[00:29:48] they're applying for hundreds and

[00:29:50] thousands of jobs

[00:29:52] and they're just not getting an

[00:29:54] opportunity

[00:29:55] like software development is one that

[00:29:56] I know is a massive challenge

[00:29:58] no one is hiring juniors

[00:30:01] because they feel

[00:30:02] with one senior they can do the job of

[00:30:05] 10 juniors 20 juniors

[00:30:07] they are coming into a little bit of a

[00:30:09] harder time to get a job

[00:30:11] to keep a job

[00:30:12] but there's definitely a longer

[00:30:13] interview process

[00:30:14] there's a lot more going on

[00:30:16] and what I think is going to happen

[00:30:19] is they're going to come down to reality

[00:30:21] of what the market is

[00:30:23] I am not blaming them

[00:30:25] but

[00:30:27] they've been lucky

[00:30:28] they've been very fortunate

[00:30:30] to come out of school

[00:30:31] in a very prosperous time

[00:30:33] and that is changing

[00:30:34] in one way Shelly

[00:30:35] I'm like

[00:30:38] every generation has said something

[00:30:40] very similar about the generation

[00:30:42] before them

[00:30:43] are we just a little bit jealous

[00:30:44] it could be the case

[00:30:45] like I'm in my mid 40s now

[00:30:47] and I look at those kids and like

[00:30:49] you gotta put into work

[00:30:51] before you ask for a raise

[00:30:53] or you gotta show up and work 60 hours

[00:30:55] and their priorities are different than ours

[00:30:59] Shelly did you have anything else to add there

[00:31:01] are you good there

[00:31:02] the only thing I would add is

[00:31:04] they did as a generation go through something

[00:31:07] as young adults

[00:31:08] and that is everyone came home

[00:31:10] we hunkered down with our families

[00:31:12] and that has left a permanent mark

[00:31:16] on that generation

[00:31:18] that we're just entering the workforce

[00:31:20] or just graduating high school

[00:31:22] it is going to have a long-term effect

[00:31:24] and I don't think we yet know

[00:31:26] what that is going to mean

[00:31:29] we're starting to see it

[00:31:30] as they enter the workforce

[00:31:31] we're seeing just what sort of impact

[00:31:34] that had on them

[00:31:35] that as young adults live through it

[00:31:38] I think the market will correct itself

[00:31:41] because like 30% of the workforce

[00:31:43] is not going to influence 70%

[00:31:46] they will come around

[00:31:48] they will

[00:31:49] Okay, I just don't want to be the

[00:31:52] get off my lawn guy

[00:31:53] so I

[00:31:56] let's see

[00:31:56] at the next 10 years

[00:31:57] we'll tell us a very interesting story

[00:32:01] all right I want to jump into the last recruiting

[00:32:03] and say

[00:32:03] and this is for our friends

[00:32:05] that are actually sourcing

[00:32:07] and reaching out to candidates

[00:32:09] our friend Hung Lee had a really

[00:32:11] interesting list

[00:32:12] that he put together

[00:32:14] of what makes a candidate respond

[00:32:17] to a recruitment message

[00:32:18] so Shelly I'm going to give

[00:32:20] a couple of the key points

[00:32:22] and I want to get your thoughts on it

[00:32:24] so employer brand of sender

[00:32:27] obviously if you are a recruiter at

[00:32:30] Amazon Google

[00:32:31] or any of the big brands

[00:32:33] there's a way higher chance

[00:32:35] that you are going to get a response

[00:32:38] would you agree

[00:32:39] just agree

[00:32:39] yeah absolutely

[00:32:41] I think that's a no-brainer

[00:32:42] that's why I think recruiters

[00:32:44] that work at really famous brands

[00:32:46] I'm sure there is some great recruiters

[00:32:48] but you can get away

[00:32:49] be it being a mediocre recruiter

[00:32:51] in those bands

[00:32:52] so the identity of the sender

[00:32:55] so the CEO is going to get

[00:32:57] more responses than a recruiter

[00:33:00] absolutely

[00:33:01] a hundred percent

[00:33:03] then I want to go into a couple ones

[00:33:05] actually I want to talk one

[00:33:06] that's not even really here

[00:33:10] there was a couple of research

[00:33:11] that I found

[00:33:12] that talked about personalization

[00:33:14] versus non-personalization

[00:33:15] so sending out a message

[00:33:17] that is very personalized

[00:33:18] compared to sending

[00:33:20] just a standard message

[00:33:21] that you're sending

[00:33:22] to say 500,000 candidates

[00:33:25] and what the research shows

[00:33:27] there's really no difference

[00:33:29] again this is in high volume hiring roles

[00:33:34] so if you are taking a lot of time

[00:33:36] to individually personalize these messages

[00:33:38] the data is showing

[00:33:40] that it doesn't make much of difference

[00:33:43] where it does make a difference

[00:33:45] is when we're looking at executive roles

[00:33:48] more challenging roles

[00:33:49] there's definitely an impact of personalization

[00:33:51] but if you're hiring for

[00:33:53] high volume roles

[00:33:54] don't waste your time

[00:33:55] it's basically a message here

[00:33:58] then there's a couple things

[00:33:59] that we always talk about

[00:34:00] like message lent

[00:34:01] what's the optimal number of characters

[00:34:03] for a message

[00:34:04] usually I always think

[00:34:05] shorter is better than longer

[00:34:07] and according to LinkedIn

[00:34:09] less than 400 characters

[00:34:11] gets the best response rate

[00:34:14] do you want to hit a couple?

[00:34:15] yeah so the one here

[00:34:18] that is the channel that you use

[00:34:20] I know we talk a lot about

[00:34:22] if you want a response

[00:34:23] text somebody

[00:34:24] yeah

[00:34:25] now how do you get their cell phone number

[00:34:27] while you log into the indeed database

[00:34:29] and get all the emails and the text?

[00:34:32] interesting

[00:34:33] is it email

[00:34:34] or is it an in-mail message

[00:34:36] what if somebody were to message you on Facebook

[00:34:40] now I would say

[00:34:41] that's probably the least effective

[00:34:44] because I believe that

[00:34:45] if you're being messaged on

[00:34:47] say WhatsApp

[00:34:48] or Instagram Messenger

[00:34:51] or on Facebook

[00:34:53] it's almost a violation of privacy

[00:34:55] hey this is my off-duty persona

[00:34:59] so I think the channel that you use

[00:35:01] does matter

[00:35:03] email though we know

[00:35:05] rarely gets opened and in-mail

[00:35:07] I think for most people

[00:35:08] if you send out 100 in-mail messages

[00:35:11] and you get 10 back

[00:35:13] 10 responses

[00:35:14] that's considered okay

[00:35:16] if you get 30%

[00:35:18] you're rocking

[00:35:19] so the channel does matter

[00:35:22] where you send the message

[00:35:24] really good point

[00:35:24] because if you sent me an email

[00:35:26] there's a good chance I'm going to miss it

[00:35:28] I don't look at them as much

[00:35:31] you're right though

[00:35:32] I've had this happen on

[00:35:34] MSN Facebook Messenger

[00:35:38] and I felt a little bit violated

[00:35:40] I felt like what are you doing?

[00:35:43] kidney therapy

[00:35:43] I'm gonna use the kid's terms

[00:35:45] I felt trauma

[00:35:47] were you traumatized?

[00:35:49] just that workplace trauma

[00:35:50] no

[00:35:50] I did not feel right about it

[00:35:53] and I never responded

[00:35:54] and I didn't feel like I needed to respond

[00:35:58] but yeah

[00:35:58] the channel makes a huge difference

[00:36:00] you're right

[00:36:00] I think it's the biggest one

[00:36:01] so which channel would you use Shelley?

[00:36:04] I think you need to understand your audience

[00:36:07] you know I think of one of our clients

[00:36:09] that has this large database

[00:36:10] because they do high paying

[00:36:12] but short-term work

[00:36:14] and they've got a database of people

[00:36:16] and so they text them to say

[00:36:18] hey we've got this work coming up

[00:36:20] are you available?

[00:36:21] now that's an opted-in system

[00:36:24] they know you

[00:36:25] you've applied to them before

[00:36:26] you've got permission to reach out to them

[00:36:29] so I think channel matters

[00:36:31] but it's gotta be the right audience

[00:36:32] LinkedIn is completely appropriate

[00:36:35] for people in professional roles

[00:36:38] will they respond?

[00:36:40] not likely

[00:36:41] because like recruiters we live on LinkedIn

[00:36:44] so we think everybody must check it every day

[00:36:47] honestly like I can't get into LinkedIn

[00:36:48] right now as you point out

[00:36:49] you're panicking

[00:36:50] I'm like what up?

[00:36:51] oh my god

[00:36:52] here's the other thing

[00:36:53] I love a succinct message itself

[00:36:57] so the content of the message

[00:36:59] if you can be concise

[00:37:02] and to the point

[00:37:03] that is far more effective

[00:37:05] than just spewing the job description

[00:37:09] and putting that in the message

[00:37:11] what I love

[00:37:12] and I get the personalization

[00:37:15] is different for mass or high volume hiring

[00:37:17] but if you are reaching out

[00:37:20] like in a head hunt situation

[00:37:22] if you put together a very well worded

[00:37:25] thought-out message

[00:37:27] you'll get a response

[00:37:28] yeah all really good points

[00:37:30] but I do think

[00:37:32] there's not a lot of outreach

[00:37:34] out there from recruiters

[00:37:36] recruiters that are sourcing

[00:37:37] and reaching out directly to

[00:37:40] potential candidates is still very low

[00:37:42] it's very low in Canada

[00:37:44] like the majority are

[00:37:46] relying on the candidates

[00:37:48] coming to them

[00:37:49] and responding to their job ad switch

[00:37:52] you have to have really good

[00:37:53] recruitment marketing

[00:37:54] to make sure that they're seeing you

[00:37:56] and they're applying for those jobs

[00:37:57] but I love that we're having these

[00:37:59] discussions on whether the best

[00:38:02] practice for recruiters

[00:38:03] when reaching out

[00:38:04] because I do think

[00:38:06] we're going to have to do a lot more of this

[00:38:08] I think the recruiting market

[00:38:10] there is a skills mismatch

[00:38:13] there's a lot of people applying for jobs

[00:38:14] don't get me wrong

[00:38:15] but to get the right quality candidate

[00:38:17] you're probably going to have to find them

[00:38:20] this is where reaching out

[00:38:21] so sourcing and referrals

[00:38:24] should be a big part of your

[00:38:26] talent acquisition strategy

[00:38:27] so in that note Shelly

[00:38:29] I need to go take a nap

[00:38:32] exhausted

[00:38:34] so I'm looking forward to our event

[00:38:37] with Plum Humanly and AMS

[00:38:40] should be lots of fun

[00:38:41] and I hope the Toronto Maple Leafs lose

[00:38:43] but we'll see

[00:38:45] ooh hot take

[00:38:47] thank you Serge Arvois

[00:38:57] Shelly let's face it

[00:38:59] taxing candidates is the easiest way

[00:39:01] to hire quicker today

[00:39:03] but your cell phone doesn't connect to your ATS

[00:39:05] you're sharing your personal number

[00:39:07] with strangers

[00:39:08] that's pretty scary right Shelly

[00:39:10] and it's not even legally compliant

[00:39:13] this is where our friends at Rectex come in

[00:39:15] they've created simple yet powerful

[00:39:17] tax recruiting software

[00:39:19] that works with your ATS

[00:39:21] plus it's designed by recruiters

[00:39:24] for recruiters

[00:39:25] so you know it works

[00:39:26] to learn more and book a demo

[00:39:28] visit www.rectxt.com

[00:39:34] mention the recruitment flex

[00:39:35] and get 10% off annual plans