Here's Why Executive Search is Whack!

[00:00:00] Hi, it's your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad

[00:00:05] Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts.

[00:00:11] Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls.

[00:00:16] It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Oh yeah. It's Bob Hope's favorite podcast,

[00:00:26] aka the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always,

[00:00:31] the lino to my letterman, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we welcome

[00:00:36] Kyle Samuels, founder and CEO at Creative Talent Endeavors. Kyle also did time at GE Aviation,

[00:00:44] Ernst & Young, and Yum Brands, home of the greatest company of all time,

[00:00:48] Taco Bell. Kyle, welcome to the podcast. Thank you gentlemen for having me. How are you doing?

[00:00:53] Very nice. Very nice. Good. Excellent. Our listeners likely don't know who you are.

[00:00:58] Let's take a little look into the window of what is Kyle? What makes you tick, man?

[00:01:03] So like you had some familiarity with the 216 born and bred in Cleveland, Ohio.

[00:01:09] Introverted only child who somehow has decided to base his whole career on interacting with

[00:01:15] people and strangers and making friends and talking to people all the time. And I love it.

[00:01:19] It's really weird. But no, started out, thank you for the intro, started Creative

[00:01:22] Talent Endeavors seven years ago. We celebrate our seventh anniversary on February 1st of this year.

[00:01:27] Excellent. Excellent. Well, today we're going to talk about executive search and how it is

[00:01:31] whack. And before we get to that, we got a little background, right? A little background

[00:01:35] of executive search. And then also, you know, what's changed with executive search

[00:01:40] throughout the year? Or is it just the same shit? So for those who don't know,

[00:01:43] executive search, I'm gonna speak of a retained executive search. You have a need,

[00:01:46] you go to a company because you feel like internally you cannot find that person or not

[00:01:50] find that person quickly enough. And so the search firm says, great, we'll absolutely

[00:01:54] find you that person and we're going to charge you an arbitrary percentage, which is the highest

[00:01:59] percentage of their salary that we can get you to say yes to. And also by the way,

[00:02:03] we control who you see. So you can tell us that you can only afford a 250k candidate.

[00:02:07] But if I tell you all we got is this 300k Joker, like you don't know anything. And so

[00:02:12] you're going to say yes. And so it's not a scam, but I would say it's rape. It's kind of

[00:02:15] like casinos, right? The house always wins. It's a profit deal. Yeah. But to answer your

[00:02:20] question, Chad, nothing has really changed in 100 plus years of executive search. It's still the

[00:02:24] same way we don't use data at all in various aspects of executive search. And I think that

[00:02:31] one of the reasons why it's still this like lofty gate kept system is because it is so

[00:02:38] expensive to pay for these firms to actually do these searches with you. Not every company

[00:02:43] can afford that for every role or many roles. And so what you find is it's a certain group of

[00:02:49] people and of talent that kind of just get passed around the executive search world

[00:02:53] because they're within that gated ecosystem. So companies don't generally have anyone on staff

[00:02:59] who have this type of expertise because they just don't need it as often. I mean, why don't

[00:03:04] companies do this themselves? It vacillates all the time, right? So one point of the pendulum

[00:03:09] is we're going to do everything in-house because why pay all these exorbitant fees

[00:03:13] when we can just have people pay them a salary and then they execute the search work for us?

[00:03:18] That works until people are like, we're not really hiring. Why are we carrying all these

[00:03:21] recruiters on our load? We don't really need them. So then it goes back to,

[00:03:25] it's not strategic. TA is just like go find the people. So we're going to use firms for it.

[00:03:30] So it literally goes back and forth and back and forth depending on honestly who's running

[00:03:35] the TA or HR department at the time. So does the executive candidate actually pay a fee?

[00:03:41] There are some companies that will say, hey executive, pay us this money and we're going to

[00:03:45] make introductions and help you and all that good stuff. I feel like in this day and age of

[00:03:49] internet and LinkedIn where people want to find you, they can find you. I would not advise

[00:03:53] that. So I say typically if you're paying a fee for something that's not coaching just

[00:03:56] for introductions, it smells a little weird to me. So I would initially think that this system

[00:04:02] has been around for a long time because it works. However, in my research before the call,

[00:04:07] I saw surveys of like half of all executive searches fail. I'm not sure exactly what

[00:04:13] defines failure, but do you agree, disagree with that? If it is such a bad batting average,

[00:04:20] why are we still doing it? So I would say this in like 1812, someone could be like,

[00:04:25] oh, this labor is really working. It's great. I don't pay anything and I get all this labor.

[00:04:30] It's awesome. So it's working for a certain group of people. Yes. But is it working for

[00:04:35] everyone? No. An executive search, somewhat the same way, right? It depends what side of

[00:04:39] the equation that you're on. Another reason why people like you said, they accept it,

[00:04:44] is there a lot of people who honestly, these are my friends. I talk to them in other companies.

[00:04:48] They are so excited to run to one of the big firms and be like, oh my gosh, will you please

[00:04:52] take my 100K to find this person for us? And they're like, oh, we'll do it. There's part

[00:04:56] of this is like, we've made it. We can afford to spend this much money with this company.

[00:04:59] That shows that we're doing things well. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't,

[00:05:02] but at least we've reached that level. And because of the brand of those companies,

[00:05:06] you feel like maybe it was us. I know searches don't work all that well.

[00:05:09] And that honestly is the great thing about having a brand, right? If you are a new company and

[00:05:14] there's a mistake, it's like, oh, I don't know about them versus your GE and you have

[00:05:17] one bad wrench. They don't make wrenches, but follow me. It's like, they've been around

[00:05:22] for 100 plus years. People are going to make mistakes. And so people get seduced by the

[00:05:26] brand, the name and what that means. And companies use that to their advantage, quite frankly.

[00:05:30] Now, executive search seems to be like they're fishing in the same pool constantly, which is

[00:05:36] very old and white and male. Right? They are. So why do companies continue to go

[00:05:44] to an old pool of the same freaking candidates? I mean, Joel calls it swapping spit for God's

[00:05:51] sakes because it's literally, it's going from one company to the next company. It's CEO

[00:05:55] from here to their co CEO, whatever the hell else. There's no diversification. There's no upping.

[00:06:01] This does not seem like a good or even, even a model that you would want to get into today

[00:06:08] to be able to not just diversify, but to be able to get new talent into your organization.

[00:06:12] So it's, it's waterfalls and I'm not talking about agile waterfall. I'm talking about TLC.

[00:06:17] People are, they're sticking to the rivers and the lakes that they're used to. For real.

[00:06:21] Like that's it. I feel comfortable with this group of people or these companies are

[00:06:25] they've been vetted by these companies. I know them. I don't know who's over there. They're

[00:06:29] different than me. They went to a different school. They look different. That's scary.

[00:06:32] I don't care about that. I'm going to go with this group because it's easier. It's

[00:06:36] frictionless. And the other person thing to remember is that let's be honest,

[00:06:39] the people who are spending money on these search firms, it's not their money. They're

[00:06:41] employees, right? They have a budget, but it's not their money. And so especially if

[00:06:46] their CEO is like, Oh, I love this firm. Go work with them. Okay. Because, and this

[00:06:50] is something I've talked to, because my business, right? Talk to people who hire

[00:06:54] executive search firms. They've told me, Hey Kyle, here's the thing. Love you. But if we go to

[00:07:00] CTE, you know, boutique firm, that's awesome. And it doesn't work out. My boss can be like,

[00:07:05] I've never heard of this. Why would you do this? But if we go to a firm that's known,

[00:07:10] like it's the old adage, no one ever got fired for hiring IBM. It's just like,

[00:07:13] it's IBM. Who knew that there was a rogue character who wasn't a good recruiter. Right.

[00:07:17] And so there's a lot of CYA that goes on. It is the safer thing to, again, stick with that

[00:07:23] same ecosystem. It's not innovative, but if it's successful for you at that time,

[00:07:29] you don't care. Just being honest. I'd love to hear your perspective being on the front lines

[00:07:34] of this when, you know, DEI was hot for lack of a better term, following, you know,

[00:07:40] George Floyd and every, you know, it seemed like everybody wanted a diverse executive or

[00:07:45] they wanted to widen the pool. Like Pokemon.

[00:07:48] We're, you know, we're still dealing with Mark Cuban and Elon Musk going back and forth on

[00:07:53] social media about what exactly is diversity in an organization. So

[00:07:58] just your perspective, is there still a demand to diversify the C-suite?

[00:08:04] Is it less than it was a year or two years ago? What's the current state of it? Talk about

[00:08:08] DEI. So it's less than it was, but here's, I'm gonna shoot a lot of bill. I may have said

[00:08:13] this to you before Chad. So I'll give you an example. I think that people don't like

[00:08:16] performative things. They don't like being told if you're a CEO and you've got a job

[00:08:21] to fill in, you feel like Chad could be the perfect person, but they're like, no, no, no.

[00:08:25] Yes, Chad can do the job, but we need to speak to women and, you know,

[00:08:28] minorities before we fill this role. Now, if the job you're talking about for Chad is like

[00:08:33] the, maybe the chief diversity officer, then yeah, it might make sense to get a bunch of

[00:08:36] people with different perspectives. But let's say it's like senior director of FP&A. Make me

[00:08:41] the argument that having a woman or a person of color in there is going to make our company

[00:08:44] more profitable. It's probably not in that particular role. And so I do understand that

[00:08:48] executives feel like we're sick of this. You have to do it just for looks and, and because

[00:08:53] it looks good or whatever when it doesn't serve your business. But what I would say is this,

[00:08:57] the problem is, is a lot of, especially during the pandemic, you had people who were just

[00:09:00] like, Hey, I'm an associate brand manager, but I also happen to be Hispanic. Cool. Consuelo,

[00:09:05] you're now our head diversity officer. But I know Mark, that's cool. You're Hispanic.

[00:09:09] You want the promotion, right? And so unfortunately she's in that position where

[00:09:12] she may be passionate about DEI, but she knows how to sell potato chips. She doesn't know shit

[00:09:15] about DEI and she fasts. So there's that. Then you've had a lot of people who were just like,

[00:09:20] they think real life is Twitter and they want to like, you know, say all these cool things

[00:09:23] and not really do the work. They almost want to come into the business and be aggressive.

[00:09:27] That doesn't work either. But what I really do believe is that if you show the return on

[00:09:31] the investment for DEI, the ROI DEI, people will understand it. I'm going to give you a

[00:09:36] perfect example. What's old boy's name from the Clippers? He had the side chick. No, no,

[00:09:42] the owner of the Clippers. Oh, I can't think of his name, but fine. From Microsoft? Yeah.

[00:09:48] But the guy, no, no, don't put that on Balmer. The dude who owned it before,

[00:09:51] he said a bunch of racist stuff. You can do your Google. But here's the thing. So he was

[00:09:55] telling wild racist shit about players magic this 7-3. But guess what? Who are his players?

[00:10:01] They look like me. Mostly not y'all because he knew, Hey, I may think that white people

[00:10:05] are better than black people, but guess what? Not in that damn court. So guess what? I'm going to

[00:10:09] pay the best people regardless of their background because I want to win. And so I do think with a

[00:10:16] lot of executives, if you say our CMO must be a woman or a person of color, why are you making

[00:10:21] me do this? Why? Well, we want it to be a Latina because our biggest area or our biggest

[00:10:27] target for growth is central and South America. We want someone who knows the culture,

[00:10:30] speaks the language, blah, blah, blah. And we think that that person can do a better job

[00:10:34] than a white guy from Omaha or a black guy from Harlem. That totally makes sense and people can

[00:10:38] see it. But I think what people push back against is just no, because we've never had

[00:10:42] one before. Now we need this right now. And honestly, in a lot of those cases,

[00:10:46] it doesn't work well for the person who's coming in because no one wants to be just like,

[00:10:50] Oh, you're here because you were born this way, not because of what you can do or how you

[00:10:54] can perform. So to get back to your original question, I think that there is a lot less of

[00:10:59] a desire for it overall in most companies, but the companies who get it, they get it and they

[00:11:06] haven't stopped doing the real good work. Gotcha. Gotcha. So let's talk about the future.

[00:11:11] Okay. So we've obviously established that executive search is old. It's feeble, could be

[00:11:17] running for president, the United States, who knows? At the end of the day, what does the

[00:11:21] future look like? Right? I mean, you said that the executive search, for the most part,

[00:11:26] they're not founded in data, in tech, in algorithms. That's what we're seeing though,

[00:11:34] in the rest of the world. Are we going to move that way? Tell me what the future looks like.

[00:11:38] Yes. And a lot of search firms, I mean, us included, we use AI for things like back

[00:11:43] of the house job descriptions or collecting candidates and stuff like that. But one

[00:11:47] important thing to notice about all that is companies will do that and they will tout,

[00:11:51] Oh, we use AI for our sourcing and stuff. But as a customer, why do I care? Unless you

[00:11:55] give me a discount or you're telling me something else. That's great that you guys have saved money,

[00:11:59] but you haven't added it to me. Right? And so what I think the future is this, oftentimes,

[00:12:05] perfect example, now that people can work remote and regions and stuff,

[00:12:08] a company might say, Hey, if you work in Manhattan, you might make 15% more than

[00:12:13] someone working in Omaha just because cost of living, stuff like that. If you have a PhD,

[00:12:17] you might make more money than the person with just a BA. Right? But when you flip it,

[00:12:22] when it comes to search firms, we haven't said, wait a minute, you want us to find you an executive

[00:12:26] who needs to work in, I don't know, Butte, Montana and come into the office every day.

[00:12:30] That's going to be very hard versus our company is based in Manhattan. We have 40 offices around

[00:12:36] the country and you can work anywhere in the US. Right? Super easy compared to that. Why are

[00:12:41] we charging the same price for something? One is the degree of difficulty is exponentially harder.

[00:12:46] But the way things work right now, it's like going to a grocery store, you go to Trader Joe's,

[00:12:50] they give you the brown bag and they say anything you put in here is $50.

[00:12:54] Yeah, but nobody knows what it looks like though. Nobody knows what the landscape actually

[00:12:57] looks like. So they don't know to ask that question, right? Is it easier to find somebody

[00:13:02] in Des Moines versus New York City? Well, yes, it's easier in New York City. Right? But

[00:13:08] most people don't understand that so they don't question it. So do we have enough data

[00:13:13] exposed where people can actually understand what the fuck is going on?

[00:13:18] We do. But here's the thing, I'm just being 100% honest. If we weren't a company that was

[00:13:22] nationally remote, no offices, no leases, beautiful leather chairs and aquapana and stuff

[00:13:29] like that, I wouldn't be talking about this. But the reason, the data is there, but there

[00:13:33] is no compelling reason for search firms to do that. Right? It doesn't make sense for them.

[00:13:40] It's kind of like what you guys talk about LinkedIn and we use it because we have to. But

[00:13:44] I've talked to people on LinkedIn and it was like from a business perspective,

[00:13:47] there's only so much improvement they're going to do because where are you going to go?

[00:13:50] Where are you going to go? So we could do all this stuff, but why? It doesn't make business

[00:13:53] sense for us. And so I think it's the same thing with the search firms. The data is out

[00:13:57] there, but people don't know and you can talk about rationality. It's the same way that

[00:14:01] you can have a sweatshirt that costs $100 or you could put Balenciaga on it and now it

[00:14:05] costs $2,000. But some people are so excited about saying that they are a part of the

[00:14:10] Balenciaga world, they will pay that premium. And I think that it's the same way with

[00:14:14] search. I see it happen with lots of vendors. You were so excited that you've finally been

[00:14:18] able to get McKinsey to work with you. You're paying a premium for that, but you're okay.

[00:14:21] And sometimes you do get the value for that premium, but when you don't, you say,

[00:14:24] meh, it's McKinsey. They probably had an off day. It's okay.

[00:14:26] What impact has work from home made on executive search? I mean, we have stories

[00:14:32] of companies saying get back in the office and we have some companies saying like you can

[00:14:36] work from anywhere at any time. Talk about what you've seen from your perspective, more

[00:14:42] companies coming in house. Are they willing to have executives that don't work in an office

[00:14:48] relocation options? Like from where you sit, where does executive search sit

[00:14:53] in the work from home phenomenon? So there's your first question. It has been

[00:14:58] much easier for us, right? Because before times, before COVID it was like,

[00:15:02] Hey Chad, you live in Baltimore. We got this great job in LA. We want you to come. Chad

[00:15:05] asked to think about moving his kids, his wife has a job or whatever. Where now it's

[00:15:09] just like, Hey, we're still the cool company in LA. You guys can stay here. Nothing changes for you.

[00:15:13] So in that way it's been easier because you don't get people rejecting your job,

[00:15:16] the job offer because they have to move and disturb the family. That has been great.

[00:15:20] Honestly, where I think it's been a little wavy is for candidates and employees because

[00:15:26] companies for the last few years have been playing double Dutch with return to work,

[00:15:29] right? Like four years ago, Oh my goodness, you can be in 10 bucks too. It's okay. Go to

[00:15:33] Tulum, log in. We're good. Right? Then it was like, Oh, we got, what's that vaccine. Hey guys,

[00:15:39] why don't you come in and just, yeah, come in two days a week. And then it was just like, Oh wait,

[00:15:44] we got the booster three days. And then there's like four and five. And so

[00:15:48] then they go back and pull back. So companies have been loathed to just plant that flag on

[00:15:52] the ground and say, Hey, we think we're better together because of that. We are going to be a

[00:15:56] company that comes in the office four days a week. And but we're going to make it so

[00:15:59] that you're not doing the trope of like being in the office and zooming with your teammates who are

[00:16:03] at home that day. Right? There are still individuals who crave human connection,

[00:16:07] like we're human people and they want to go work in offices. And I think it's super

[00:16:11] important for junior people to understand what that looks like. But if you were wishy washy,

[00:16:16] then people are wary because they don't know if you're going to change it all of a sudden.

[00:16:20] Right? Like there are companies who have told people you can go anywhere. And then they said,

[00:16:24] just kidding. Actually, not only do you need to be back here, we'll move you here

[00:16:27] permanently. But if you want to come back once a month, you have to self fund that.

[00:16:31] So we're going back to the future. We're going back to where you have to be,

[00:16:34] where the company is. The remote thing is not happening for most executives.

[00:16:39] I wouldn't say that. And I would also say for executives, it's just life, right? Like

[00:16:42] sometimes when you have that C in front of your title, do as I say, not as I do.

[00:16:46] I know companies where it's like nowhere in the office, but they don't worry about the C

[00:16:52] blah, blah, blah. They can do what they do. Right? So there's some of that. But what I

[00:16:55] do think that has been great about this is for companies like myself and small companies,

[00:16:59] when I started the company, well actually I was in Orange County, but as I grew it,

[00:17:02] I was in Charleston, South Carolina. Beautiful city. Love it. Great food,

[00:17:05] but not known for having the world's best. It's not an industrial major business city.

[00:17:10] And so rather than say, let me get the best people I can in Charleston where I live,

[00:17:15] it's like, let me get the best people wherever they live. And so I think that is

[00:17:18] a huge boon for smaller companies, companies that don't have or need real estate. But for

[00:17:23] the larger companies, sometimes they forget the cost fallacy. But I do believe honestly that

[00:17:29] especially if you're younger in your career, the ability to be around the people you're

[00:17:33] working with and get to know them outside of work. I always joke about people when I see

[00:17:37] them, which is probably not politically correct, but I make a joke like, oh,

[00:17:39] you do have legs just because we spend so much time seeing people from the belly button

[00:17:43] up. You know what I'm saying? So like, oh, now I don't know if Chad has legs or not.

[00:17:47] So hopefully I'll see you guys in Transform and I'll know that. But that getting to

[00:17:51] know people and the socialization in the workplace is just so crucial. And that is

[00:17:58] one of those things companies, even if you're remote, I think it's super important just to

[00:18:01] make sure there are connection points to get if it's once a year, twice a year,

[00:18:04] maybe you have pods. But I'll put a pin in real quick saying this is I tell executives

[00:18:09] when they get jobs and they're excited like, oh, it's great. They say that I don't have

[00:18:12] to come in. I was like, this is like when it's not a client of ours, but like ask them

[00:18:15] what their budget is right? Because that shows you what they think about connectivity.

[00:18:19] If you're coming in at a senior level and they're like, oh no, you don't need to come

[00:18:22] in at all. Like that would give me some red flags. I'm best from the belly up by the way,

[00:18:27] just in case you're wondering. Yeah, you don't want to see that. You don't want to see that.

[00:18:31] Let's go back to again, the actual fees and the structures and kind of like the traditional

[00:18:37] long term, you're going to pay a shit ton of cash, especially when we're talking about

[00:18:40] executives who have seen, you know, 1500% pay raises over the last 40 years. And the rest of

[00:18:47] schmucks have seen about 14%, right? So that obviously aligns with the fees. So the fees have

[00:18:54] gone through the roof. How do you actually change it as you were talking about earlier,

[00:18:59] it's not fair to be looking at an executive in Des Moines paying the exact same thing versus

[00:19:05] New York City or Miami or what have you. How do you actually get into a structure that way

[00:19:12] the clients can see this transparently up front so they can understand that there is a new like

[00:19:20] fashion forward way to look for executives. That's not going to kill their fucking bottom line.

[00:19:26] Yeah, there are companies out there using that data to let a client go or prospective client

[00:19:31] go and say, here's the role. Here's what I want to pay them. Here's the location. Here's

[00:19:35] the, is it in office? Is it hybrid or not? And they can see and play around and be like,

[00:19:39] oh, interesting. And I think it's something that hiring managers think about because it will,

[00:19:43] these things, these calculators can show you that, oh wow, if I say the thing could be,

[00:19:49] the person can be remote, I might save like 15, 20% on my search. And the reason why is

[00:19:54] because I'm in Atlanta right now. If you say you have to be in Atlanta and you have to come

[00:19:58] into the office five days a week, that is limiting the number of people a recruiter can

[00:20:02] get versus you can be anywhere in the U S you've exponentially increased the amount of people

[00:20:06] we can reach out to, which means we're going to close the search more quickly,

[00:20:09] which means we can take on another search, which means you can give that some of that savings back

[00:20:14] to the client. But I think it's a map. It's two things. I think first off, it's the education

[00:20:19] aspect and letting people know that surge pricing, getting your airline ticket two weeks

[00:20:25] in advance. Like we know there's certain things in life where if you act in a certain

[00:20:28] manner, you will save money or pay more allowing people to understand that it can be

[00:20:32] the same way with search. And then also just making sure that people understand that if you're

[00:20:36] getting a fair price, it doesn't mean that you're losing quality. It just means that there are

[00:20:40] companies out there who don't feel like they need to stick you up because in 2020, 2021,

[00:20:45] maybe a little 2022, there were companies out there. Like if you don't have 200 grand,

[00:20:49] you better turn around and go make some other friends. I don't have time for you.

[00:20:52] And that's the interesting thing with these search firms. When times got rough,

[00:20:56] they did not lower their fees, right? Like they raised them, but when time,

[00:21:00] they weren't like, oh, let's work with you understand times. Nope. Price is the price.

[00:21:03] That may help you.

[00:21:04] We're seeing headlines about boomers leaving the workforce,

[00:21:09] somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 are retiring every day. But we're also hearing

[00:21:14] about them sort of part-timing their old jobs. What's your take on sort of the generational shift

[00:21:20] that we're seeing from an executive search perspective? Is it Gen X's time? Is it our time?

[00:21:26] The forgotten generation, Gen X.

[00:21:28] Yes. But I would also say that boomers know how to work. They have a work ethic. They know how

[00:21:34] to get busy. They typically don't have as much entitlement. They knew how to do stuff without

[00:21:39] the LinkedIn and the technology. So I love it. I honestly have seen, there used to be like

[00:21:45] in years prior, more of a bias towards the young hotshot up and comer, right?

[00:21:49] Now I'm seeing more clients. I'm not saying they want someone who's, you know,

[00:21:52] about two months from retirement, but they, you know, like Myrtaugh and Lethal Weapon,

[00:21:58] but they do want someone who has the knowledge, has the grit, has seen it, is not going to like,

[00:22:04] you know, lose their crap over a bad quarter and things like that. That is something that I've

[00:22:08] seen change versus just like, no, the hotshot who's got lots of potential. They haven't

[00:22:12] done it yet, but we know they can do it. Now there's a little bit more of like,

[00:22:14] no, I want someone who's battle tested because a lot of companies through the pandemic and

[00:22:18] because you couldn't interview people in person, a lot of, they hire a lot of people. They

[00:22:21] found out, oh, you weren't that good. It was just the economy. It was great. And no one was

[00:22:24] checking. But in 2022, I can kind of see that you come up wanting.

[00:22:28] So we're holding on to boomers as long as we can is what I'm hearing. We're not ready.

[00:22:32] Which screws up our talent pools. I mean, that screws up our talent pools

[00:22:36] because soon as they're gone, we've got-

[00:22:37] And real estate prices, but that's a different-

[00:22:40] Yeah, that's a different podcast. We don't have people with the experience

[00:22:46] in these roles because these assholes have kept them so long.

[00:22:49] We're going to pay the piper eventually, right?

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:52] Which goes back to what you said about the same ecosystem of talent,

[00:22:55] just moving around and chugging around.

[00:22:56] Right. So what do we do about that? What does the future look like? I mean,

[00:23:02] when the pool dries up, right? What do we do then because we are doing this to ourselves.

[00:23:09] So I'm going to talk about diversity in a different way, not what most people expect.

[00:23:13] Bubba. Bubba is a guy who graduated first in his class from the University

[00:23:17] of Nebraska in computer science. But because he went to the University of Nebraska,

[00:23:21] cool startups don't come there. The sexy consultancies don't come there.

[00:23:25] So he goes to like Cargill or Monsanto,

[00:23:27] the type of companies that hire people from the University of Nebraska.

[00:23:30] Bubba would cut his left arm off to move to San Francisco,

[00:23:34] work for a startup and be in the office every day. He would love it.

[00:23:37] But guess what? You're in flyover country. We don't give a crap about Bubba.

[00:23:41] But Bubba also knows things that I don't care if you're black, white, whatever,

[00:23:45] you grew up suburban, upper middle class, middle class. You went to these elite schools.

[00:23:48] You kind of have this certain thing. You don't know what people in the so-called flyover states

[00:23:52] want. Bubba might have an app for milking cows that could be monumental. I'm serious,

[00:23:57] being monumental, but they get overlooked. So I think that's another part of opening

[00:24:01] the aperture and looking at different types of talent is one of the things again,

[00:24:05] you hear about people like millennials, oh, they're entitled. They want this, that,

[00:24:09] and the third. Well, that's because if you go to certain schools,

[00:24:12] you're brought up a certain way. It's like, I want the warden of an MBA from Stanford.

[00:24:16] Yeah, you're damn right. What can you do for me? Right. But Bubba.

[00:24:20] Look at my dad.

[00:24:21] Bubba wants to prove some stuff. Bubba has grit and Bubba is going to possibly open up

[00:24:27] markets and opportunities that you didn't know about just because, oh wait, how much

[00:24:31] fertilize? I don't know, making stuff up. Right. But I think that again, expanding it,

[00:24:35] making it more open and inclusive always just makes everything better. And one thing I will say

[00:24:41] about a little diversity part, I have found typically that a lot of people who worked in the

[00:24:45] military are fantastic because think about it, especially if you start 18 or younger,

[00:24:51] you're with people, races, ethnicities, economic, all this different stuff. Some are

[00:24:55] there because they need a job. Some are there because they love their country. Some of the

[00:24:57] times it's both, but you have to move as a unit with people who don't necessarily look like

[00:25:02] you believe in the same things. So you go to corporate America, it's like, I've had

[00:25:05] bullets flying over my head. We're worried about this commercial didn't get the hits

[00:25:09] that we wanted. It'll be fine. And I can interact with any different type of person.

[00:25:14] Kyle, we have a lot of startups and smaller companies that listen to the podcast, maybe

[00:25:19] looking to do their first ever executive search. In a minute or less, what kind of advice would

[00:25:25] you give them in starting out with their first ever search? And then I want you to follow up

[00:25:29] that question with your go-to meal at Taco Bell. I'm not going to do a plug. So the first

[00:25:35] thing I'll honestly say, think about as a small company, because I've learned this is a

[00:25:38] small company too. Bigger companies see it coming. They know you don't know crap about crap and they

[00:25:42] will finesse you. So I would look at how much does my account mean to this person, this company?

[00:25:49] Let's be honest, if you've got maybe it's 50,000, 75, 100K means a lot to you,

[00:25:53] but a big company that's just like, whatever. And so that's also going to show how much

[00:25:58] attention and care and value they're going to give you. Also, if you're a smaller company,

[00:26:02] even if they crush this, you may not need them for another year or two. So again,

[00:26:06] just think about how much work and care and attention are they going to give you knowing

[00:26:10] that you may not have anything for them for another year or so. Whereas a smaller company,

[00:26:15] or forget smaller company, let's talk about people. Someone who's more relationship driven,

[00:26:20] ask why they're interested in your company. What do they like about your company? Why do

[00:26:24] they think this is a search that they want to do? And you can see if they've really done

[00:26:28] their research and trust me, if it's a big old company with a big ticket, they will do

[00:26:30] it. People haven't done the research, that's because they really don't care. They think they

[00:26:34] can get it without even taking the time to learn your company. So ask some of those questions.

[00:26:37] Don't expect them to be an expert and know your whole origin story, but at least you

[00:26:40] want to have that feeling that they really care and that they want to partner with you

[00:26:45] versus just like, oh shit, it's an account, it's a check, let's go and let's move on.

[00:26:49] That's the first thing I would say. And then Taco Bell, I'm a DLT guy, man. I'm a DLT guy.

[00:26:56] And Ranch, by the way. Ranch. DLT, Cool Ranch.

[00:27:01] Ranch. Kyle, Kyle, so obviously people listen to the podcast. They're going to want some more

[00:27:08] info, more insights around executive search. And if they do, where can they find you?

[00:27:13] They can find me on LinkedIn. They can find us at www.hire, H-I-R-E-C-T-E.com. That's our

[00:27:21] website. Yeah, no, reach out, ping me. I will be at Transform next month,

[00:27:26] lurking around, running around, eating food, having fun meeting people. So yeah,

[00:27:30] love to talk to people. It's my business. Maybe have some Taco Bell. Why in God's name

[00:27:35] did we record this at lunchtime? Chad, that is another one in the can. We out.

[00:27:43] Thank you for listening to what's it called? A podcast. The Chad, the cheese. Brilliant.

[00:27:50] They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about

[00:27:56] nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening.

[00:28:01] It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho,

[00:28:09] pepper jack, swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho,

[00:28:17] be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen

[00:28:23] to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit

[00:28:29] www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird.

[00:28:39] We out.