Happy Rebels in Recruitment with Rika Coppens

[00:00:00] Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast Chad Soosh and Joel cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry

[00:00:10] Right where her complete with breaking news

[00:00:13] opinion and loads of snark

[00:00:24] Yeah, what's up everybody it is Rutger Howard favorite podcast Wow

[00:00:30] The Chad and cheese podcast

[00:00:32] Joel cheeseman joined as always the red light to my district there you go

[00:00:37] So watch house as we welcome Rika Coppins

[00:00:42] CEO of house of HR to the show live from the e-recruitment conference in

[00:00:49] beautiful

[00:00:50] Amsterdam is it Amsterdam Holland is it Amsterdam the Netherlands?

[00:00:55] I don't even know exactly the Netherlands Holland is a part of the Netherlands

[00:00:58] So is it Amsterdam the Netherlands? Yes, okay. We'll roll with Rika

[00:01:02] Welcome to the podcast

[00:01:04] For having me and thank you for being here at the recruitment Congress our pleasure our pleasure

[00:01:09] So so some of our listeners won't know you there's kind of a lot to introduce here introduce yourself

[00:01:15] Introduce House of HR quickly. Yeah, introduce the Congress that we are at currently. Okay. Very good. Well, my name is Rika Coppins

[00:01:22] I'm the CEO since 2017 of House of HR

[00:01:26] I used to be a CFO and then I entered into this famous or infamous space of HR, which I really love

[00:01:33] It's dealing with human beings and I think that's what we like at House of HR

[00:01:38] When we talk about House of HR

[00:01:40] We're a collection of 50 brands and companies all involved in the world of staffing or engineering and consulting

[00:01:46] very

[00:01:47] Specialized very focused on the candidate and customer experience and we actually say HR stands for happy rebel

[00:01:54] And that's what really sets us apart from everyone because we always try to do different stuff

[00:01:59] We try to when everyone goes left we want to go right and that's a little bit the mentality

[00:02:04] We have and I think it's in that context. We're organizing this e-recruitment Congress for everyone

[00:02:10] How big is the footprint now? So House of HR today

[00:02:13] We are at 3.4 billion euro revenues in Europe mostly in the Transparency

[00:02:18] Hello, who have the Transparency? Hello. I was talking about regionally

[00:02:22] Like what country she's talking about if you want to talk money. She's dropping the big bomb. I love it

[00:02:27] The CFO goes right to the dollars. I love it

[00:02:29] But we're in Belgium, Holland, France, Germany and we also have branches in Spain

[00:02:35] Yeah, Portugal and also in Eastern European countries

[00:02:39] Yeah, very nice

[00:02:40] So we're spread over there and as I said our revenue has grown quite quite quickly

[00:02:45] We're now at 3.4 billion euros

[00:02:47] But a lot more profitable than the big staffers because we do think specialized and we try to get close in terms of

[00:02:55] Understanding candidates and customers needs and I think that's really what sets us apart from everyone else

[00:03:00] Well, that's one thing

[00:03:01] But I think one of the things that you've taught Joe and I have we as we started this relationship is that

[00:03:06] There's a thing called a branded house

[00:03:09] Yeah, and then there's a house of brands and you guys are a house of brand indeed and in Europe

[00:03:16] That to me in what we've seen thus far

[00:03:19] Just allows more of that natural

[00:03:22] You know state of being as opposed to getting kicked out like step stone got kicked out of France

[00:03:28] Because they're a German brand and they went into France

[00:03:31] They're like no get the hell out of there you guys keep that brand you keep the founders in many cases the CEOs

[00:03:37] I mean, there's really this this culture that is much different than we see in the US where it's like bring everything under one brand

[00:03:44] It's cheaper. It's more efficient. You guys have really figured that out

[00:03:47] It's bullshit because that's actually one plus one is one strategy

[00:03:51] Yeah, that's what I call you pay a lot of money to buy a company and then basically what you do is we buy goodwill on legs

[00:03:57] The people run away and so if the people don't like you as the

[00:04:01] The acquirer of a company which we see a lot

[00:04:04] Which is actually in most of the cases what's exactly happening you try to change the culture

[00:04:09] Forcing the culture down your forcing systems IT systems computer systems on people they don't like it

[00:04:15] They say everything was better in the old days

[00:04:17] Yeah, and then they run away and then they start up their own company

[00:04:20] They talk to your customers and they run away

[00:04:24] So and that's what we try to prevent and I think we're succeeding in that and trying the companies that we acquire

[00:04:29] We're basically listening to them asking them

[00:04:32] What is it that you need from us and then trying to help them with what they need from us?

[00:04:38] And then make them grow in that way and I think it's a much stronger proposition for founders

[00:04:43] The thing is that generally that that whole idea that paradigm

[00:04:47] It's hard to keep ahead of right and you you and the entire group are really focused on innovation

[00:04:54] Yeah

[00:04:54] So was that like the key to ensure that you don't get into atrophy?

[00:04:58] And you don't just kind of like dwindle away that you really focus on all

[00:05:02] Brands as their own brand but under house of HR and innovation is the biggest key

[00:05:08] Innovation obviously also we help them with administrative processes and support

[00:05:12] But indeed innovation is one of the key things where we try especially to inspire each other

[00:05:18] Because we're all more or less in the same business. We're all dealing with candidates

[00:05:22] We're all dealing with customers

[00:05:23] So the idea is really that the brands amongst themselves and the founders and the people in the different companies in the different functions

[00:05:31] They inspire each other and then we exchange best practices and from those best practices

[00:05:35] That's where the innovation comes from because someone says I have a great idea

[00:05:40] And then the second thing I think that I mentioned the happy rebel thing and it sounds like oh

[00:05:44] It's just one of those things that you shout out and blah blah

[00:05:47] But it's really a culture that lives inside house of HR. We love to destroy ourselves

[00:05:53] It's really something that we constantly ask ourselves that what is it that can kill house of HR

[00:05:58] What is it that can kill your brand and that's how now jobs came about indeed?

[00:06:03] That's how we started now jobs, but actually now job started in 2017 after asking that question

[00:06:09] How to kill accent which was our first brand and now we recently organized the workshop how to kill now jobs

[00:06:15] So I mean this thing is continuing

[00:06:17] So really we're constantly

[00:06:19] Trying to ask ourselves the question

[00:06:21] What is our right of being here and are we still entitled to exist as a company?

[00:06:25] And if not then we need to try to invent something else

[00:06:28] And and I think this is also the spirit of the recruiting congress is that we don't mind that competitors are here

[00:06:35] Everyone is invited. We really give them insights and how we function and the technologies we we use

[00:06:42] And we really want everyone to know about it

[00:06:44] And then probably it's also challenging us to

[00:06:47] Continuously stay ahead of everyone else. Yeah separate brands, but there's unification in the congress that we are currently attending

[00:06:55] Why do the show why have other people come in that aren't part of house of HR competitors?

[00:07:01] Yeah, just talk about the genesis of this conference where you see it going in the future

[00:07:06] Because I've been this is my third third or fourth one. It's it's out of belgium this year

[00:07:11] So you're obviously growing extending the brand

[00:07:14] Why do it and where is it going? I think first of all it's challenging ourselves, right?

[00:07:19] I mean organizing this congress

[00:07:21] It's getting us really out of our comfort zone and we say that's where the magic happens

[00:07:25] So getting ourselves out of our comfort zone constantly having our eyes and ears open about what's happening in the HR

[00:07:31] And recruiting world but also outside of the HR and recruiting world

[00:07:34] What could be actually impacting our business that we see in other businesses?

[00:07:38] And it's forcing us to keep our eyes and ears open so that we truly understand what's happening

[00:07:44] And then inviting the best speakers to continue to challenge us. I think is is the second thing

[00:07:49] We like to be challenged by giving that knowledge also to competitors or people outside of house of HR

[00:07:55] We know that they can also bring valuable ideas and I mean it's also a little bit about steal with pride

[00:08:01] And so we don't mind also that it's better to steal goods than to invent bed

[00:08:06] And then and then this is also helping us to to achieve that so we invite competitors

[00:08:12] They also give us feedback and from that we learn again. So and where's it going?

[00:08:16] Oh, that's a very good question. I think we're to the moon to the moon and back

[00:08:23] When's the american uh congress?

[00:08:26] Yeah, I think house of HR. We're a european based company still so

[00:08:29] I love her focus. I love her focus. Yeah, we're staying in europe for the moment

[00:08:33] I think there's plenty of opportunities in europe still

[00:08:37] We love the complexity of europe in a way because the complexity of europe is also helping us deliver better service

[00:08:43] And more value add to the customers which leads also to our profitability

[00:08:47] I think once we are satisfied with where we are in europe then maybe we'll make this up to us

[00:08:53] The trail of dead leading from europe to america is not not pretty so she's paying attention. She's paying attention

[00:09:01] So as we take a look at as we take a look at europe, right?

[00:09:04] And it is so different country by country but also job by job and we were just talking about

[00:09:10] Being able to really engage with chatbots, right?

[00:09:15] And you found that there was an area that you thought would actually work, but it didn't so you're you're constantly

[00:09:21] Trying new things out. Can you tell us about that? Yeah

[00:09:24] So at some point we invested in chatbot technology ourselves

[00:09:28] It was five years ago and we launched it in our own companies

[00:09:31] We sold it internally again people had to buy it and and they had to be motivated to use it

[00:09:36] And the complexity was it was mostly for blue color rolls

[00:09:40] That we use it with very simple questions with must-haves and nice two halves

[00:09:44] And so we we got a feed of candidates and then the the difficulty was first of all to reach the candidates because at some point

[00:09:51] Some of them filled out the questionnaire, but then when you said okay now we are going to schedule an interview

[00:09:56] They were unreachable

[00:09:58] Impossible to to get hold of so that actually demotivated a lot of our recruiters

[00:10:03] So the second step was okay. Let's not put it in the day-to-day operations

[00:10:07] Let's put it in a separate digital cell

[00:10:09] Whose only job is to contact the digitally generated candidates that we have and who can deal with the disappointment

[00:10:16] Because it's kind of their role to deal with the disappointment and it's not interfering

[00:10:20] With their day-to-day operations where customers come in and what have you so then they did it

[00:10:26] We had slightly better results because they were more focused

[00:10:29] But still they then did the interviews and then it was very difficult and we still have that today

[00:10:34] To get the recruiters to have those pre-screened candidates to accept them as their candidates

[00:10:40] And it's still one of the struggles that we have today is that you have pre-screened candidates that you get a fully filled out

[00:10:47] Form cv all the skills are there. We say this is a top notch candidate

[00:10:52] We then send it to the recruiter who does the matching with the customer and still they feel it's not my candidates

[00:10:58] And this is a human thing

[00:11:00] Where you feel that there has to be this connection between the candidate and the recruiter

[00:11:05] Before they are willing to take the leap of faith to present that candidate to the customer

[00:11:10] And that's a human thing that we need to overcome and that's something that we're really working very hard on to

[00:11:15] To get that mentality change like listen, this is a perfect candidate. We've done the screening for you

[00:11:21] You can trust it

[00:11:23] Please present it to your customer. So this is what was also today in some of the sessions

[00:11:28] AI it's not only about the machine, but it's also about your organization and the mentality change that you need to get into people

[00:11:35] So this to me sounds a lot like a marketing qualified lead

[00:11:39] That marketing would pass on to sales and sales would just eat up

[00:11:43] They would that's mine right hot lead, but you're saying recruiters are like, oh

[00:11:47] I'm not really sure about this really see that just tells the evolution that we need to go through in our industry

[00:11:54] I think a lot has to do with education

[00:11:57] And demonstrating a other industries are doing this and they're kicking ass and taking names you could too

[00:12:03] Yeah, so it's it's indeed. It's about education. It's about information and making sure that we show successes of this that

[00:12:09] What is in it for me? This is really uh, uh things that we need to teach

[00:12:14] Internally and that that will lead to acceptance and we're not there yet

[00:12:17] And I think like it is with a lot of things adoption sometimes with the chat, but maybe we were just too early

[00:12:24] Right. It's like with coffee shops in fuel stations

[00:12:27] BP started it in 2001 went to buy coffee in in a fuel station today. Everyone does right

[00:12:33] So it's also about acceptance like okay. There's also good quality coffee now in fuel stations

[00:12:38] They no one trusted that

[00:12:40] Just not sushi

[00:12:43] Oh, we might get there. We might get there. No fish. So

[00:12:46] We won't be expecting you to come to america anytime soon. Maybe vacation america to europe

[00:12:52] The american money is something that you are interested in bane capital

[00:12:57] Invested in you a year or two ago. I believe what is that infusion of capital meant to you?

[00:13:03] I know acquisitions are looking at companies to take in your fold has been part of your focus

[00:13:09] But what else has the capital meant to the business? I think bane first of all comes with a lot of experience, right?

[00:13:14] So they know they know a lot about investments and they know a lot about how can you improve businesses and how can you also

[00:13:21] Market your business is better so that investors trust and believe in what you're doing and can take you to the next step

[00:13:27] So I think this is the first thing they bring they bring a lot of knowledge

[00:13:30] They bring a lot of know-how

[00:13:32] Of how things should be done in our business and how to present our company

[00:13:36] Access to capital definitely is an important one because

[00:13:39] Half of our growth historically has always come from organic growth and the other half from acquisitions

[00:13:44] So helping us detect acquisitions identify acquisitions that could fit house of hr

[00:13:50] And then on board those acquisitions

[00:13:51] I think that's the second thing and obviously also the financing that comes with it to continue the growth paths

[00:13:57] That we've been on that's that's what they bring

[00:14:00] So what has really blown your mind today anything anything that takeaways? Yes

[00:14:05] takeaways takeaways

[00:14:06] I think a lot of things you know of course, but when it comes to ai in the sense that you have to be careful

[00:14:12] There are things that you need to be in terms of bias and stuff like that

[00:14:17] So we need to be careful with with ai implementing it especially when humans are involved

[00:14:22] On the other hand, I think the main takeaway is

[00:14:25] Things are moving very fast and the train is already

[00:14:30] Has already left the station and I think if as a company especially in hr

[00:14:35] If you haven't jumped on the train there is a big chance that you'll miss it

[00:14:39] And so we really need to think differently about how to incorporate ai technology

[00:14:44] In our day-to-day operations from an efficiency point of view, but also from a business model point of view

[00:14:50] And and I think we really need to speed things up because it will move very fast

[00:14:55] And and it can change businesses rapidly especially in our space talk about risk tolerance because I mean you can take a lot of risk

[00:15:03] Right and then fall down right in front of everybody. Yes, that's how innovators actually work

[00:15:08] But your clients aren't innovating that fast, which is one of the reasons why they look toward you

[00:15:13] Right. How do you how do you actually balance that risk?

[00:15:18] Tolerance piece not just for yourself, but also for your clients

[00:15:21] I think first of all the advantage we have as house of hr is that we have so many brands

[00:15:25] So we can experiment in a small corner and no one notices when we go flat face. So

[00:15:31] That's a big advantage

[00:15:33] second thing is also that

[00:15:36] We do have customers in a lot of different spaces and some are more advanced than others and some are more open to

[00:15:42] To new stuff. So we try to identify those and it's always those early adopters that we try to

[00:15:47] Work things out with and and find out if they would be open to experiment with us

[00:15:52] And then the same for candidates, but that's also how now job started

[00:15:55] Also a little bit fake it till you make it

[00:15:58] Is how now job started it looked like an app in the beginning and as if everything was done digitally

[00:16:03] But in the background we had people riding bikes to put on the electricity

[00:16:07] So you you also have to experiment and be a real entrepreneur

[00:16:11] And I think this is the biggest danger also for house of hr becoming bigger

[00:16:15] Is that you try to do things too well?

[00:16:18] And if you try to set up an experiment, but all of a sudden you get security officers and you get programmers and

[00:16:25] Architecture nothing gets done and you get paralyzed

[00:16:28] And so we need to allow in house of hr in those small corners to

[00:16:33] Really look at it in a very entrepreneurial way and say like how would a startup deal with this someone with no money

[00:16:39] How would they set this up and then start from there and then gradually

[00:16:43] Learn and fail and learn and fail and then and then take it from there

[00:16:47] paralysis by analysis. I think is what they

[00:16:51] In america, we're a little bit spoiled economically

[00:16:55] And I want to get I want you to give the listeners a sense of the economy in europe

[00:16:59] Germany seems to be to be in recession

[00:17:01] UK seems to be struggling

[00:17:03] France Italy

[00:17:05] Down the line talk about the european economy from your point of view and how that's impacting the business

[00:17:11] By germany, I think is one of the biggest engines of european economy

[00:17:14] So the fact that they're struggling is is trickling down in all the surrounding countries, especially also

[00:17:20] Belgium and holand who are mainly export countries towards germany. I think france is doing not too bad

[00:17:26] I think macron has done quite a good job in getting france a little bit more liberalized in a way and making it a more

[00:17:33] industry friendly country and you see you said also in the balance

[00:17:37] In terms of politics that where medical was really strong in germany now with medical gone

[00:17:43] You see that actually the power has shifted to france. So I think they're not doing too bad from our point of view

[00:17:49] The good thing is that given that we are in so many different businesses with so many different profiles

[00:17:54] You can clearly see that high skilled white-collar jobs. They are still going very strong

[00:17:59] You still see the demand there the scarcity of talent is still

[00:18:03] The main driver of demand and is is still driving revenue

[00:18:07] But you do see especially in germany. That's where we see the biggest struggle. I think the other

[00:18:12] Countries they are kind of it's not growing fast, but they're kind of

[00:18:17] Getting through the recession calmly

[00:18:19] But germany is where we see the biggest struggle for the moment and let's hope that as from q2 q3

[00:18:25] We start to see also some recovery over there because that will hit us really bad again the scarcity

[00:18:31] I think it will come back also with a is it an acquisition opportunity?

[00:18:35] Are you seeing companies strained and possible acquisitions?

[00:18:39] I think acquisition landscape is a bit slower. So there's a lot of companies preparing

[00:18:46] For sale, but I think most of them are a little bit in

[00:18:49] Waiting mode to see okay. What is 24 going limbo?

[00:18:53] We had the elections in holland the end of last year. We now have elections in belgium in in june

[00:18:59] There's the us election

[00:19:00] So there is some uncertainty going on and I think 24 there for there a lot of companies preparing and they're kind of hoping that

[00:19:07] 2023 performance will continue to be there and I think probably

[00:19:11] Second half of this year. We will see more companies again popping up

[00:19:15] You'll let us know when those acquisitions will definitely do that

[00:19:18] How much of an impact does the presidential election in the us have on business here?

[00:19:25] All right

[00:19:25] Is there is there like pins and needles kind of waiting to see what the hell those idiots do across the bond or is it full

[00:19:30] Steam ahead. Yeah, the election is not the impact, right?

[00:19:33] I think it will be more who wins the election that will give us an impact potentially

[00:19:39] In terms of what will be the added yield of the us versus europe and

[00:19:44] How will for example the support before ukraine?

[00:19:47] In terms of the war against russia and how much uncertainty is that gonna bring on europe

[00:19:51] I think that's going to be the biggest question mark post election and depending on who's winning it

[00:19:57] Last sunday. We had president obama coming to belgium. Uh, so there's a supernova

[00:20:03] innovation and tech conference going on there and

[00:20:06] Yeah, I think he's also a bit scared about what the december outcome could be

[00:20:11] In terms of the attitude towards europe and i think europe has now finally maybe

[00:20:17] Woken up a little bit more. I think we've been too naive in in thinking that u.s. Support would be there eternally

[00:20:23] And now obviously we need to speed up in terms of defense

[00:20:28] Spending but it's a lot of things going on at the same time, right? There's a spending for defense

[00:20:33] There's a spending on climate neutrality pulling out of russian oil. I mean, there's just so many different layers

[00:20:39] Many things going on for the moment america is here for you rica america is at least these two americans

[00:20:47] I know you'll advocate for us american business is here for you for sure very good

[00:20:52] Curious your thoughts. This is a digital focus conference innovation and you guys obviously manage a lot of job sites and employment sites

[00:21:01] How do you see innovation changing how job seekers find a job in the future? I really liked

[00:21:07] Bill this morning who said that it's not going to be job seekers finding jobs

[00:21:12] But it's going to be jobs finding the job seekers. Yeah, and I firmly believe in that

[00:21:17] I think that if you can get the right job to someone at the right moment

[00:21:22] I think this is what we should focus on much more and indeed telling someone like we know

[00:21:27] What your next step should be and we can really help you build your career

[00:21:32] And give much more value to the candidates in that sense. I think this is going to be the way forward

[00:21:37] So in a way, we should reverse job boards in the other way around and actually ask

[00:21:42] Candidates more what job they would want to do instead of posting jobs and and asking candidates to apply

[00:21:49] So our listeners are aware of cardboard chad. You may not be but our listeners are

[00:21:55] Who's this guy?

[00:21:56] And now and now we have digital twin leaven

[00:22:00] Our listeners know leaven

[00:22:02] We got to meet digital twin leaven. He speaks very good english. Yes his english is impeccable

[00:22:08] I'm not sure where my line of questioning goes other than will digital leaven haunt your dreams

[00:22:14] Going forward. We will mine

[00:22:17] Thoughts on digital leaven should we expect more of uh him in digital format? Well, I think

[00:22:23] Was that his idea or yours? It was actually my idea

[00:22:27] Because I have no one to blame but you it would be great to have a digital avatar on stage and people could ask questions

[00:22:33] And you notice it wasn't her though, which is how it is like leaven go do this

[00:22:38] She knows how to spread the wealth like it's not about me. It's about you guys so but because of

[00:22:45] legislation actually we said it's probably not yet a good idea to have a digital avatar

[00:22:51] Somewhere out there without having any certainty what it can be used for

[00:22:55] And the digital avatar is somewhere on a platform

[00:22:58] And we don't know whoever gets that avatar in hands what they could do with it and what they could make me say at some

[00:23:04] Point so I said it's probably not a good idea if it's me

[00:23:07] So then leaven said, you know what I'm already out there. I'll I'll you can abuse me

[00:23:13] Happy to be abused

[00:23:14] And so that that's what we did

[00:23:16] I know there's a lot of things going on and I truly believe that intellectual property around digital avatars

[00:23:21] Is something that should come into place really quickly rather sooner than later?

[00:23:25] I know this belgian guy chris umay who participated in america's got talent. He was a belgian guy who

[00:23:32] Did what's the guy's name in the jury?

[00:23:35] diamond calz the only one I know

[00:23:37] That's the one simon cowell

[00:23:39] Howie bandel's the other one and Heidi clume they were at some point on stage because he created their digital avatar

[00:23:46] And and so that was the spectacle but he's working now with his company on on putting an IP

[00:23:53] in place so that avatars actually belong to you as a person

[00:23:57] And then everyone who's trying to use your avatar has to pay money gotta pay gotta pay

[00:24:01] So you mentioned amsterdam is your favorite european city?

[00:24:05] What is your favorite thing to do in amsterdam?

[00:24:07] My favorite thing to do in amsterdam

[00:24:11] It's a good question actually. I think it's just stroll in the nine streets

[00:24:16] There is this area here this neighborhood, which is called the nine streets and it's really gorgeous

[00:24:20] It has nice shops, but it also has a very nice atmosphere and you're

[00:24:25] Strolling along the canals and that's that's my favorite thing to do here. That is amazing

[00:24:29] Chad and I will be in the red light district. You can be on the nine streets or whatever that is

[00:24:34] That's another one

[00:24:35] In the can rica coppins for those that want to know more about you or connect to the company

[00:24:40] Where do you send them? Well, you can go on my linkedin

[00:24:43] I always respond to respond to all the messages you send me

[00:24:46] So it's just rica coppins house of hr and my email address is rica dot coppins at house of hr dot com

[00:24:52] There you go mention chad and cheese. That's another one in the can

[00:24:56] We out

[00:24:58] Thank you for listening to what's it called a podcast the chad the cheese

[00:25:05] Brilliant they talk about recruiting they talk about technology

[00:25:09] But most of all they talk about nothing just a lot of shout outs of people

[00:25:14] You don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible and not one word about cheese

[00:25:20] Not one cheddar blue nacho pepper jack swiss

[00:25:26] So many cheeses and not one word

[00:25:30] So weird

[00:25:31] Anywho be sure to subscribe today on itunes spotify google play

[00:25:37] Or wherever you listen to your podcasts that way you won't miss an episode

[00:25:42] And while you're at it visit

[00:25:45] www.chadcheese.com

[00:25:48] Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese

[00:25:53] It's so weird we out