Deliberate Talks ft. Tara Kapur - Redefining Traditional Proficiency Testing With DET | Pixelated Egg

[00:00:00] This is the table for two edition of the Deliberate Talks podcast and I'm your host, Dakshin Adyanthaya

[00:00:05] welcoming you to an advancing linguistic domain that can take you to places for professional

[00:00:10] and personal developments.

[00:00:12] So get ready to stay ahead of the knowledge curve beyond the conventional methods of English

[00:00:17] learning with none other than Thara Kapoor.

[00:00:20] Thara is the head of marketing for dual-ingual English test in India and apart from this

[00:00:25] she is an award-winning marketer with an illustrious career across roles at Netflix,

[00:00:30] Vice Media and more.

[00:00:32] In our conversation today with Thara we uncover the upgrades in language assessment, exploring

[00:00:37] how new methods are reforming the way we learn, teach and evaluate language skills in a global

[00:00:43] context.

[00:00:44] All this in more with Thara right after this quick intro.

[00:00:52] This is the Deliberate Talks weekly podcast powered by the pixelated egg digital ventures.

[00:01:04] And we're back.

[00:01:05] Hello Thara welcome to the Deliberate Talks podcast.

[00:01:08] Hi, that's nice to meet you.

[00:01:10] Super excited to host you how are you doing?

[00:01:13] Doing good, hectic week but been good so far.

[00:01:17] Okay, I'll keep it as light as possible and let's have fun as much as possible.

[00:01:22] And before we get into our incredible dialogue and language learning and assessment, we

[00:01:27] start the show with a thought starter conversation and I want to begin with asking you why are

[00:01:33] English teachers in school always the strictest of the lot and did you encounter one of

[00:01:38] them?

[00:01:39] Actually for me was a bit of the opposite.

[00:01:42] My English teacher was actually my favorite teacher which is probably why I sort of went

[00:01:46] down this path.

[00:01:47] So post school, I actually studied English honors as my major and that was because I actually

[00:01:52] had a great English teacher which I guess is a little contrary to what you were saying but

[00:01:58] for me I was terrified of my math teacher and I still am semi terrified of math so I guess

[00:02:05] it just depends on school to school.

[00:02:08] Okay then, as soon as we are all set for a round of questions let's begin with asking

[00:02:13] about dual-ingual English test, the DET.

[00:02:17] Now the dual-ingual language report highlighted that English remained to be one of the most

[00:02:22] popular languages to study across the world.

[00:02:25] So talk us through what is DET, the target audience primarily signing up for the English

[00:02:31] test in India and how many of them are actually serious and casual learners and what's their

[00:02:35] objective for trying this out?

[00:02:38] Great question and I'm glad you highlighted the distinction between the language app and

[00:02:42] the DET.

[00:02:43] And I think the interesting part is one is obviously it's one, the app is for language

[00:02:48] learning and the DET is a high-stakes proficiency test but I think that also signals difference

[00:02:53] in behavior in terms of learning versus testing right?

[00:02:56] When it comes to learning behavior varies and for some people you are trying to learn

[00:03:02] to improve your standing in society so you know you speak a different regional language

[00:03:07] you're trying to learn English because it can help you get a better job no matter what

[00:03:11] strata of society you are in.

[00:03:13] For some people you are learning it casually just to be able to you know learn a new language

[00:03:17] and have fun but when it comes to testing testing is a lot more high-stakes because typically

[00:03:24] when people take an English proficiency test it's to study abroad and the audience that

[00:03:28] we have that takes the DET is primarily an audience that's looking to experience life

[00:03:33] in another country through higher education.

[00:03:36] So there are obviously different personas and different people you know think about your

[00:03:40] friend's circle right?

[00:03:41] And think about your friends that have studied abroad or the ones that have gone abroad

[00:03:45] from their undergrad or college right they're different kind of brackets.

[00:03:49] Yeah so some people go and study abroad because they just wanted experience another culture

[00:03:55] and they want to sort of be in a multicultural global ecosystem they want to learn they want

[00:04:00] to work they want to expand their horizons.

[00:04:02] Some people go abroad for better opportunity right so they want better jobs they want

[00:04:08] to eventually migrate to another country and they want to change the quality of life that

[00:04:11] they're living in India on higher incomes and migration is a very big motivator for

[00:04:16] a lot of Indians looking to study abroad and then there's brackets off you know so we see

[00:04:21] STEM aspirants actually looking to study abroad a lot because you know they're great engineering

[00:04:27] schools abroad there's talent there's so much talent that exists in India and they want

[00:04:32] to open up those opportunities from a job perspective.

[00:04:35] So you see a lot of engineers and students like that end up going to colleges in the US because

[00:04:39] it's so hyper competitive in India.

[00:04:42] So yeah just some different profiles that we see when it comes to testing right and honestly

[00:04:47] how difficult is this?

[00:04:50] Absolutely I mean this is just one part of the study abroad journey right so there's so

[00:04:55] much that students have to go through and this test is just one part in that entire ecosystem

[00:05:01] and a very pivotal life changing moment for them so super difficult absolutely.

[00:05:07] Right how's the program structured now if I have to ask that preparation for study abroad

[00:05:14] or job we see a lot of people preparing themselves for English test the spoken English and the

[00:05:18] return English aspect of it.

[00:05:20] How difficult is this part for them in terms of how much time do they need to give themselves

[00:05:25] to prepare for something?

[00:05:27] So honestly it varies you know the idea of English proficiency test is to just test your

[00:05:33] standard of English so what we've tried to do with the DT is make it as stress free

[00:05:38] as possible.

[00:05:39] So the idea of the test is it's intuitive it's not a test that you need you know like

[00:05:44] it tests your standard of English at where you're at it's not something that you have to prep

[00:05:48] for right so we have practiced tests on the website that lets you experience what the

[00:05:53] test is like.

[00:05:55] It's actually this number was so surprising to me that there's just about 10% of the Indian

[00:05:59] population that is actually fluent at English which was a surprisingly small number for me

[00:06:04] in terms of what I thought right I thought was a much higher number and even if you even

[00:06:08] if you buffer that and take it at 20%.

[00:06:11] That's a very large number that isn't speaking English at a fluency level to be able to

[00:06:16] learn and educate themselves at universities abroad right so the reason that these proficiency

[00:06:22] test exist is so that students can actually learn in that language when they go abroad

[00:06:27] and they're hitting the benchmark because all of these courses are taught in English.

[00:06:32] So that's the idea behind it but the reason these tests exist is not for you to prepare

[00:06:36] and pass the idea is for it to test what your level of English is at right so the way

[00:06:43] the DT works is it's an adaptive test where the questions get harder depending on your

[00:06:49] skill right so it's intuitive and that's a good idea.

[00:06:52] That manner and sort of progresses it's a lot more stress free as an experience right so

[00:06:57] the questions kind of appear in ways that are a little more conversational they feel a

[00:07:01] lot more real world in terms of how that plays out when you go to university.

[00:07:06] So what we've tried to do is make this test not a test that you have to prep for but a

[00:07:10] test that actually looks at your standard of English and we have unlimited free practice

[00:07:16] tests on our website so people can experience what the user interface is like they go to

[00:07:21] the process of taking a digital test and they understand that a little better so the

[00:07:26] ideas I ultimately you shouldn't prepare for it it should be testing what your English

[00:07:30] standard is at what for those who want to be prepared because we know a lot of Indian

[00:07:34] students want to be prepared you have the practice test to be able to do that.

[00:07:38] Right and it's a great point to touch upon the fluency bit which you spoke about and also

[00:07:43] passing the tests you know maybe an indirect correlation to the whole aspect but we learn

[00:07:48] English in school in college we pass and we don't really necessarily feel the need of it

[00:07:54] to extensively prepare ourselves for exams abroad many self learn when it comes to preparing

[00:08:00] themselves and then in the course of time don't hear these study abroad mandatory exams.

[00:08:06] What do you think is a missing puzzle in you know from a school level program or a college level

[00:08:11] program that they have to come all the way here few years later to understand that the fluency

[00:08:18] of English is not that great what do you think is the missing puzzle.

[00:08:20] I mean I think the core challenge is just access right the there's so many barriers when it comes

[00:08:26] to education and that segregation between the haves and the have-nots just becomes bigger and

[00:08:31] bigger because of those barriers right and you see it so rampant in Indian society across the

[00:08:37] board and obviously that has a role to play when it comes to education right and I think that's one

[00:08:43] part and one of the big motivators for me to join a company like Doolingos it's so mission driven

[00:08:47] in terms of making high quality education accessible and I think you know even with all of the

[00:08:54] blurry lines around eddek I think that's ultimately what eddek is trying to do is make better quality

[00:08:59] education accessible to the masses you know and the challenge comes in when every company is not

[00:09:06] necessarily as mission driven right so the reason that I feel like Doolingos does this well

[00:09:10] is because the core mission of the company is to make world class education accessible

[00:09:15] to everyone and to make it free right so even if you see the language app majority of the programs

[00:09:21] are you know like that you can learn a very high quality of language learning at a very high standard

[00:09:27] for free you know you do have the ads and you have some of those things that come into play but the

[00:09:31] ideas that the quality of education is high you know so I think that's the part that makes the

[00:09:38] difference is how much access to somebody has to these tools to be able to get themselves to a certain

[00:09:44] level of society right so just because you're stuck in one part of India doesn't mean that you

[00:09:50] shouldn't have access to the best English teacher out there right and with eddek you're kind of

[00:09:55] being able to blur those lines so I just hope that you know this is an industry that continues

[00:09:59] to grow and people see value in it because access to quality education I think is what causes those

[00:10:06] blurry lines that you were talking about right so also then in that case would at some point of time

[00:10:12] you would consider this d et to be an important part of also colleges and schools currently in

[00:10:20] India also at some point of time just in case also you know this needs to be integrated at some

[00:10:25] point in a university level as well here I don't think it would be a man I mean it could happen

[00:10:31] for sure I mean there are certain places where people want or they require that level of like

[00:10:37] they want to test to kind of prove that English standard you sort of see it happening with certain

[00:10:43] corporates as well right so certain companies ask students to go through tests which could be

[00:10:48] English proficiency tests as well to see what their standard is they do this in other countries like

[00:10:53] I know a lot of companies in Vietnam do this because you know these are just entry level requirements

[00:10:58] for certain companies but where we're at right now is focusing more on study abroad just because

[00:11:04] our acceptance is really strong with universities abroad right now we haven't necessarily focused on

[00:11:10] Indian universities because a lot of them look at your high school you know degree or your

[00:11:16] 10th 12th mark sheets and they see that as a strong enough standard right it might evolve but

[00:11:22] currently it has been right so we'd have to then work a lot with government schools you know

[00:11:27] education ministries to be able to create that but what your thing is is accurate it could happen

[00:11:33] right like the idea of the DT is it's a benchmark and it's a standard of proficiency and you know

[00:11:39] once something becomes a standard of proficiency you can see a lot of adoption happening even in

[00:11:45] areas that we haven't been focusing on for the time being right and it is a beautiful conversation

[00:11:50] because as early as you start this adoption it leads to a better preparation for study abroad as well

[00:11:57] you know yeah it's just thought that's it but I think it beautifully sings in regardless of that

[00:12:02] but yes coming to your marketing bit of this whole thing it must be a challenge for sure you

[00:12:07] know there's a large portion of youngsters whose parents or surroundings must have already a

[00:12:12] notion about online tests and maybe to a certain extent even the lack of understanding of what

[00:12:17] DED really does so how is the platform or the brand trying to reach out to this audience where

[00:12:22] the marketing effort is yeah great question and you've hit the nail on the head that's the biggest

[00:12:27] challenge that we have in the market is the lack of brand awareness because we're taking on

[00:12:32] you know traditional companies that have been around for decades and have you know followed a very

[00:12:36] old system of testing in the past right but when it comes to education and when it comes to study

[00:12:41] abroad which is this really high stakes period in somebody's life they don't want to go with something

[00:12:48] they don't trust right and you don't trust a brand that you don't know right so what we've realized

[00:12:53] with the DT is that the students that know us trust us they have a great experience we have

[00:12:59] amazing recommendations from students that have gone through the process but a very large portion

[00:13:04] don't take the DT because they don't know it exists so what we're trying to do from a marketing

[00:13:09] perspective is do exactly what you were saying increased brand awareness and there are multiple

[00:13:13] ways that you do that right like we're trying to take a full funnel marketing approach towards building

[00:13:18] out our campaigns but at the top of the funnel is the brand awareness portion right so we're trying to

[00:13:24] see how we can leverage a little bit of the fun really social digital angle of dualingo as a brand

[00:13:30] because we have this massive global brand that people love but also bring in the seriousness

[00:13:36] of high stakes testing right but some examples of how that's manifested for us is we did a really

[00:13:41] interesting marketing partnership with the movie Dunki right where you know it's so rare that you

[00:13:46] have a movie that's actually talking about the provisions of the testing space and some of the

[00:13:50] challenges that we've voice around it and we use this as an opportunity for us to do something

[00:13:55] larger scale where you know we had a sound bite from Tapsee Panu we were able to create ads that

[00:14:00] we pushed across YouTube we were integrated across you know some of the other movie promotions

[00:14:06] that Red Chilies was running and then obviously had an influencer and promotional angle around it

[00:14:11] that was one example for campaign that we've run in the market besides that you know creating

[00:14:16] strong testimonial content from students that have taken the D's DT helps build trust so showcasing

[00:14:22] success stories of students who have taken the DT and gotten into great universities abroad we're

[00:14:27] trying to create as much content around that as possible you know we obviously have a digital social

[00:14:32] media first strategy because that's where our students are most of them are online we don't need to

[00:14:37] be running TV ads to drive that awareness and then you know a lot of focus on PR press and events

[00:14:43] on ground at colleges so that's more of our evergreen stuff but you will see campaigns like the

[00:14:48] Dunki example happen on and off to create those braddo and spikes right you did mention about

[00:14:54] testimonials now you know successful attempts in an online tests are great but how does your

[00:15:00] product incorporate feedback from test takers in the ongoing development and refinement of the

[00:15:06] English test set for those who don't successfully complete it how are you able to come back again

[00:15:12] and probably take the test. No great point and I think for us a lot of it is on rules education so

[00:15:18] what we realize in a lot of countries is students don't understand that digital testing also has

[00:15:25] strict rules and that you can't just break the rules and expect to get a score right so we're

[00:15:31] doing a lot to make sure that students are aware of what they're doing and what's causing them

[00:15:36] to get in valid scores right so a lot of education around how to take a digital test is something

[00:15:42] we're working on we work also very closely with counselors and agents in the market to help with

[00:15:47] that education so that students understand the consequences if they try to cheat they understand

[00:15:52] even if somebody's not trying to cheat there you know they're breaking a rule without realizing it

[00:15:56] making sure they understand what those potential rule breaks could be because ultimately

[00:16:01] we also want the success of our students and through rule education I think is one and aspect

[00:16:06] of it the other part which you were talking about in terms of adapting the product is for students

[00:16:11] the one part that they come to us is we want the DT to accept it more widely right so right now we're

[00:16:17] accepted by 5000 plus institutions across the world which is a high number but that's obviously not

[00:16:22] universally accepted yet and we're getting there we're working on it we're just a lot newer as a

[00:16:26] product but for us to get accepted we need to work with universities to adapt the test based

[00:16:32] on their feedback right so that more universities won't accept us and then we're able to service

[00:16:37] students better and what we do is every year we have an annual update to the test based on feedback

[00:16:43] that we get from universities and other stakeholders who are involved in testing including we have a

[00:16:49] student advisory board um who are previous testicles who also have input into what we do or give us

[00:16:55] feedback on that entire experience and it's very rare to have a test update so rapidly we update our

[00:17:03] test every year we're in the phase of updating our test currently right so April 2nd is when you

[00:17:08] see the new version of our test running we've already been running some communication around that

[00:17:13] but this helps us improve our product this helps us make a more secure test this helps us drive

[00:17:18] up acceptance and then ultimately it helps testicles have more opportunities when it comes to

[00:17:24] proficiency testing choices right and it's been almost a year and a half for you in the system as well

[00:17:30] yes yes it has it's amazing stories as a positive outcome of the English test and that makes you

[00:17:38] really feel good at the end of the day yeah I love this question it's it's it's about my

[00:17:43] favorites um and I think for me it is to meet testicles like actual students who you know when I

[00:17:50] speak about this it gives me goosebumps because you're actually seeing something transformative

[00:17:54] happen for students right and like I told you Doolingo is mission driven so yes we do want to

[00:17:58] make money by selling our test but we want to make sure our test is as affordable as possible

[00:18:03] which it is it's a fraction of cost of our competitors but through that we're able to also provide

[00:18:10] a lot of test waivers for folks that need it right so we run an access program which recruits

[00:18:18] 20 to 25 gifted refugee students from around the world who are put into a program where

[00:18:27] not only do they get DT waivers but we provide us a college counselor who helps them with their

[00:18:33] application process we work with them to get accepted into top schools to get their visas because

[00:18:39] you know they're they have refugee status which makes it very difficult for them to do this on their

[00:18:43] own we're running our second cohort right now starting recruitment for the third

[00:18:48] a very large cohort of those students live in India so I've gotten to meet some of our refugee

[00:18:54] students who are from Afghanistan who are Rohingya refugees and I've seen some of them get placed

[00:19:00] in universities like Georgetown and you know when you see that transformative journey you hear their

[00:19:04] stories you see how intelligent they are and you know you're really like hey these students are

[00:19:10] going to change the world and we've played a small role in that journey so for me meeting these

[00:19:14] these access scholars has been one of the biggest highlights but beyond the access scholars there's

[00:19:20] so many students like this right I met a student recently who was talking to us about how initially

[00:19:26] he didn't consider studying abroad because just taking a proficiency test was such a barrier right

[00:19:32] and it sounds silly because you're like this proficiency test is such a small part of that

[00:19:36] journey but when you heard his story where it was like he was only getting an appointment at a city

[00:19:42] that was miles away on a certain date tickets to fly there was so expensive it was going to take him

[00:19:48] five days to take a train you know this entire process was like when you started hearing how the

[00:19:53] numbers started adding up he was like even if I get a scholarship to go to the university my proficiency

[00:19:58] test is ultimately gonna cost me lakhs of rupees so it just felt like a no like it felt like something

[00:20:03] that was an absolutely impossible dream and then I came across the DT which I could take from my

[00:20:09] house I could take it at a much lower cost and suddenly that open opportunities for me and this

[00:20:15] is a scholarship student who's gotten into a great university right so to hear someone say that

[00:20:20] where you're like wow I didn't realize that just the test could be such a great facilitator I think

[00:20:25] was really motivates you to do this job so these are just some examples I have tons of them in terms

[00:20:30] of student stories but but really inspired by the testicles that I meet fabulous I'm like that

[00:20:36] really makes you go back home and get great sleep and wake up fresh next day to ensure that there's

[00:20:44] a new dream which is fulfilled as well so it's a great feeling now you know there's another aspect of

[00:20:51] it maybe it's a struggle for the for the boomers in millennials maybe but you know the language

[00:20:58] aspect keeps evolving right now adulis has introduced co-langs based on series and fan communities

[00:21:06] you have the anime languages featured in us great courses the game of thrones language comes

[00:21:13] in yeah a stucco's that's lovely it's lovely to see co-langs come into existence but one of

[00:21:19] the generational connozations is millennials trying to understand the gencies lingo and eventually

[00:21:27] should pass to the gen alpha lingo as well imagine someone comes to you Thara and says

[00:21:34] tfw when I hear you speak your English is it is it's laughs so hard and he was

[00:21:40] wondering what is this right or this is not this is not something that I'm used to listening on

[00:21:46] a daily basis now you know when we talk about students abroad and study abroad we're also talking

[00:21:52] about this generation which is going to go there and get used to a new set of lingo altogether how's

[00:21:58] that preparation coming into the picture like how do I really try to understand what the gen z or

[00:22:03] the gen alpha lingo is so that's an great question and and I think the tragedy of it is that it makes

[00:22:11] me just feel old which I hate feeling but but I think you know when I hear like I usually feel

[00:22:17] like you know as macros you sometimes feel like you're a lot closer to the the current generation

[00:22:22] other folks you know from other generations but ultimately I mean that's not how I can

[00:22:27] worsen life and you know I would unfortunately be opening up urban dictionary and checking that

[00:22:31] but I think for us there's two parts to it right so from a social media and a marketing perspective

[00:22:38] we try and bring slang into our communication because we want to sort of relate to our consumer

[00:22:44] but obviously we need to do it at limitation because of what our product is and that's the second part

[00:22:48] of it right when it comes to testing and when it comes to high stakes proficiency it's about how

[00:22:53] you would communicate a little more formally because the idea of this is how you would communicate in

[00:22:59] university or how you would communicate in a working environment and you're definitely not saying

[00:23:04] that slaps to your boss right or your university professor right so I think that's the difference is

[00:23:11] where where when it comes to social media where we try to be a peer to students where still a guiding

[00:23:17] peer so we're still giving them a perspective and we're still sort of trying to help them out so it's

[00:23:21] like almost like a mentor of sorts but we're not unrelatable where like an old uncle trying to talk

[00:23:27] to a student right so I think those are the parts where we're trying to meet a middle ground when

[00:23:31] it comes to slang but when it comes to testing it has to be proper English and when I say proper

[00:23:37] English it doesn't have to be high brow it can be conversational but it can't be slang that's

[00:23:43] the difference when it comes to proficiency testing right is yes certain parlance can pass but

[00:23:49] like the words that you were using will definitely not work well when it comes to high stakes testing

[00:23:55] right but you might have seen it on the language app we have fun with sentences we sort of give

[00:23:59] people ways they can say silly things and have fun and that's a little bit of what we try to

[00:24:04] lean in on the DT as well when it comes to social media and some of the content we're promoting but

[00:24:09] it's a fine line because of what the product is itself which is a high stakes okay great that

[00:24:15] leaves a lot for us to self-learn as well but it's an ongoing learning and I think the best teachers

[00:24:21] to that is the generation itself and we got to get adopted too I just want to do a different language

[00:24:27] because then I'll have to learn something else great stuff that we come to the end of the first

[00:24:33] on the questions time to move from the questions on DET to RFT which means the rapid fire test

[00:24:41] and some quick fire I hate rapid fire questions but I'll go for it so quick fire is coming at you

[00:24:48] so we ready for this in 60 seconds as a person marketing the product tell me three reasons why

[00:24:55] DET is the future of language assessment or universities abroad I mean I think it is the future

[00:25:01] just because it's a digital test it's affordable I can go on about this for a while so it's affordable

[00:25:06] it's you know accessible so just the fact that you can take it from anywhere anytime

[00:25:11] it's built for students so it's built keeping us students preferences in mind in terms of convenience

[00:25:17] in terms of affordability access all of that so those are the top three things that I think makes

[00:25:22] DT the future having a digital test is an o-brainer to me having to go to a test center is super

[00:25:28] arcade and that needs to be the evolution as we progress right okay in 50 seconds your collaboration

[00:25:34] with the film donkey that you mentioned what's the favorite part of the collab and which is

[00:25:39] that one brand you want to collaborate in the near future favorite part which is personal is obviously

[00:25:44] meeting Characan I think he's amazing I always have one of the few actors that I'm a definite fan

[00:25:49] of so big highlight besides that I think being able to marry entertainment marketing with

[00:25:55] education marketing right it's kind of like bringing back my past experience at Netflix and

[00:25:59] marrying it through the DT and to me that was a really cool moment of being able to bring two

[00:26:04] skillsets together and promote our product so really enjoy that yeah and which is that one product

[00:26:09] that you want to collaborate in the future with Dueling Go itself you know I think there's a lot of

[00:26:14] scope for the DT and Dueling Go to do a lot more together and I think I mean we will make it happen

[00:26:18] but figuring out the right opportunity because right now our personalities are quite different

[00:26:22] as brands but building that awareness I think of both products would be a collaboration I love

[00:26:27] super okay in 40 seconds and people spoke to you only using emojis for a whole day what would

[00:26:33] your day look like it's really normal actually I mean I communicate a lot with memes so I don't

[00:26:38] think it would be too hard to communicate with just emojis so I think I'm okay with the emoji world

[00:26:44] if it was Gen Z slang words might might be a lot harder but emojis are easy to understand

[00:26:50] right okay super in 30 seconds three personal tips for people who want to improve their spoken

[00:26:56] English read and watch movies in English even if you don't do that regularly would be one the

[00:27:03] second would be to actually practice right so like use the DT practice test use the language learning

[00:27:10] app just to practice on a regular basis and speak more in English if you don't speak at home right

[00:27:16] so find a friend family member who you can have long conversations with in English and I think

[00:27:21] with these three you'd be great okay in 20 seconds one language you're learning currently and

[00:27:26] one you want to learn later this year currently learning Spanish I have a 300 and something something

[00:27:33] no 400 and something days streak I've lost count but I have a good streak and I would love to learn

[00:27:39] either Korean or Japanese but the lettering I think is what's hard for me but would love to learn

[00:27:44] mostly okay and in 10 seconds your favorite English word these days my favorite English word this

[00:27:51] is hard I'm missing out I'm breaking this rule I don't know I don't know I don't know

[00:27:58] you don't know as the answer let's make it as that super fabulous stuff that are with that we

[00:28:04] come to the end of today's episode this was really really fun and it's really great to know what goes

[00:28:10] on into building an effective product and more importantly you know market it effectively right

[00:28:16] and I thoroughly enjoyed hosting you I hope you had a good time with this show.

[00:28:19] Yeah this was great except for that last rapid fire question which I told you I hate because I

[00:28:22] always formal somewhere so it had to happen I thought I was doing a good job until the last one

[00:28:28] but but thank you for having me and I hope this was interesting for you absolutely absolutely thank

[00:28:34] you so much and wishing you nothing but the best that run super and with that we come to the end

[00:28:38] of today's episode don't forget to subscribe to all the audio and video channels of the deliberate

[00:28:43] talks and pixelated additional ventures join me next week for a table 4 1 edition until then

[00:28:49] be curious we adventure is and never stop learning cheers

[00:29:08] you