Professional Politicians Are The Most Dangerous People | Bhaskar Rao - On Bengaluru collapse

[00:00:00] People have become less physically courageous, so has police also become less courageous. Every chief minister is a bundle of nerves. They are all the time dispair. Today Bangalore can be equal to Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Tokyo, but because of horrible governance, the chief minister should be assertive. We have got weak chief ministers who are not bothered about things.

[00:00:26] He has to literally beg the police, come in, say, please. I have seen people have become fat eating carrots. If you kill a person on the road, what is the maximum punishment? You are fined 5000 rupees or 10,000 rupees. It is not easy to be a policeman in a country like India where there is so much of f**king and anybody can do f**king and there is no punishment out there.

[00:00:51] They ruin, suck this country, bleed this country, rob this country and plunder the country. The answer, my friend, is punishment. Namaskar, sir. Namaskar. Thank you so much for being on Bharatvaarta. I have been really looking forward to speaking with you. Very glad that you could make time for us. Thanks, Roshan. It's always a delight to speak with you. Right, sir.

[00:01:22] Sir, many different things I want to cover in terms of crime and society, in terms of, you know, governance of a city and then your transition from police to politics and some of the lessons you've learned along the way. I'm sure that the, you know, the audience will get to hear a lot of anecdotes and stories and… Plenty. And things. Our lives is full of anecdotes. Of course. Of course.

[00:01:44] So, that's one thing I want to start with. I mean, considering that you spent more than 30 years in the police, I think the police gets to see a very different side of people, right? People who are aggravated, who are fearful, insecure, etc. I mean, some can say, I mean, at their worst, right?

[00:02:06] In the 30 years that you've seen, you know, people and crime and so on, right? How has it varied? How has crime varied over the last 30 years? And do you think it's become easier to be a policeman today than earlier or otherwise? Actually, it is tougher to be a policeman these days. Our generation, we could copiously use our discretion.

[00:02:30] But now, you are sort of controlled by several agencies and answerable to several authorities. Whereas we were answerable only to our immediate boss those days or other. Now you have a social media, you have a print media, you have a video media, you have NGOs, you have rights organizations, you have left organizations.

[00:02:56] And too many people are watching you, questioning you. And courts have also become sort of hyperactive, questioning every decision of yours. In our days, it was if your boss knew that you are good, you are good. That's it over there. That is number one. Number two, people have become less physically courageous. So has police also become less courageous now.

[00:03:20] Earlier, people were courageous but were not cunning. Now people have become cunning but less courageous. More sophisticated. More sophisticated. So you see crimes are being committed not by some persons who are uneducated or rough or who are gunda-like.

[00:03:38] It has been committed by those people who have studied well and they want to make a quick buck because of your ignorance or because of the less knowledge you have about cyber laws over there. Or you don't know how to handle your equipment. So we made a comparison because we do a monthly statement on crimes over there.

[00:04:01] So how much of money was lost on account of theft, how much of money was lost on robbery, how much of money was lost on equity, how much of money was lost on murder for gain etc. Then we saw that all these put together is a microscopic fraction of the amount of money that is lost in cyber fraud. But we have been training our people on how to do all these things. We have not trained our people on cyber.

[00:04:24] So now obviously the entire focus should shift on how to prevent cyber thefts, cyber crimes and how to investigate cyber crimes, how to charge sheet cyber crimes and how to depose evidence in cyber crimes. So whole gamut, cyber crimes and financial crimes, those have become more. So I also mentioned that you know you get to see a very different side of people as a policeman.

[00:04:49] What is something that you know about general people that you know the society may not be aware of? See, so called courageous people, macho persons or great leaders, we get to see their underbelly. We are able to see how much of moral turpitude prevails among them, what third-rated mentality they have got, how low they can descend.

[00:05:16] But they will be talking about such great moral principles over there. But we have seen ordinary principle people who are not beholding any important position, but they are more courageous, they are more true to their word and they can be trusted more. That is what I can say. But as regards very few politicians or I have seen so many chief ministers over there. Every chief minister is a bundle of nerves.

[00:05:43] They are all the time scared who is going to stab them from the back. No stranger is going to stab them from the back. They're only those persons who are around them are only going to stab them from the back. And they are mortally scared of people who are around them only that's all. Right. Because they are ones who are privy to all the secrets. Right, right. Let's talk about city governance. I mean, Bangalore, if you think about it, I mean, it's probably larger in size than a few countries itself.

[00:06:10] Very complex, all kinds of challenges, whether it is traffic or crime or other kinds of violations and so on. Right. Can you give us a sense of how difficult it is to govern some city like Bangalore? See, I am a hardcore Bangalore. Means from my childhood onwards from my memory can say 1970 onwards. You went to National College. I went to Kumaran School, Kamala Nehru. And I am hardcore.

[00:06:37] Means I know the lanes and by-lanes of Bangalore. I know all the anglicized names earlier. What was Fraser Town? What was Maikaiwari Town? What was Pottery Town? What was Richard Town? All names must have been changed. Right. And how it was, Muktunga Road was sent off road. And this was Harding Road. Means from those days I know Bangalore very well. And I also know how Bangalore is limited. And I have also seen with my own eyes, we used to have road trains in Bangalore. We had double-deckers in Bangalore. Huge wide footpaths over there. Less population.

[00:07:08] Factory buses of HAL, ITI, BML, BEL. Used to take people all over. Means the Bangalore that we have seen was a very beautiful Bangalore over there. But late 90s onwards, 80s onwards, Bangalore started getting transformed over there. Right. So we had lot of first round of migrants came from outside the districts. They are all Karnataka people who came from there. Then the exodus came from Andhra Pradesh as well as Tamil Nadu. And bigger exodus came from Kerala.

[00:07:38] Push it forward over there, more people came from Northern India. Lot of people came from all over the world. So Bangalore sort of became a very cosmopolitan city and started growing in all the directions. Whereas other metropolitan cities had restrictions. Delhi had administrative barriers because one on one side it was Haryana, Punjab, UP because Naida was on one side. Then Gurugram was Haryana over there. So it could not grow. It means it had administrative restrictions.

[00:08:07] Mumbai couldn't grow because the sea coast on one side and the mountains on one side. Right. Chennai also had a sea on one side. Calcutta also was a dying city because of the Marxists and then the family. So where should people turn around to? Bangalore was there. And Bangalore could spread everywhere. It was like Amoeba, it was spreading in all the four directions over there. So layouts are after layouts. Right. So the population of Bangalore also grieved that way. And Bangalore was thanks to the foresight of the Maharajas. Right.

[00:08:34] Who invited the Tatas to start the Institute of Science and they gave money to Walchand Hirachand to start the HA airport over there. So there was from the very beginning growth centeredness for Bangalore. Today also with so many startups IT companies it is there. But as I recall actual governance of Bangalore is concerned over there. It is at the pits. Today Bangalore can be equal to Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Tokyo. Yeah.

[00:09:02] But because of horrible governance, visionless governance of all the political parties, Bangalore is at this level. Otherwise we could have had such wonderful walking foot parks over there. We could have had such beautiful cycling lanes. We could have had beautiful public transport in Bangalore over there. We could have had excellent garbage disposal scheme we could have had over here over there. We could have had very well planned layouts with sufficiently broad roads.

[00:09:30] Then very good quality of electricity wires or underground electricity wires running over there. Very good quality of sewage disposal we could have. But none of this has been possible because of very poor urban governments over there. And now the latest is that we suffer from so much of identity crisis that we are naming every other place prefixed with Bangalore.

[00:09:58] Now Ramnagar has been named as South Bangalore district. The Parmeshwara wants Thunkur to be named as North Bangalore district over there. Someone will ask Kolar to be named as West Bangalore over there. So what about identity? You do something to make that city grow now. Why you want to hang on to Bangalore over there? So this kind of poor vision and even today as we speak, Bangalore doesn't have a pedestrian policy.

[00:10:23] Bangalore doesn't have a public transport policy and Bangalore doesn't have a policy of taking care of its migrants. Nobody is even, there is no ministries in China, the labour department is not aware of. Whereas as commissioner of police, I used to see that people from all over the country are there in Bangalore over there. But there is no, and Bangalore if you take 900 square kilometers, 1.45 crores is the population.

[00:10:49] And with a daily moving population of about 25 to 30 lakh people. And so many trains come in, so many buses come in. I mean someone should be monitoring this. There is no organization and government who is monitoring all these things over there. So is it a systemic problem, sir? I mean something like the fact that we don't have a longer term for a mayor for instance.

[00:11:14] Or the fact that some of these functions, functionaries, budgets and so on are not your will of. See now you raise an important point, mayor. See the mayoral system, mayor is the first citizen of this. Here the mayor is like a beggar. He has to go beg the MLA's, he has to beg the chief minister. Means you should see when he is wearing his coat and all these things, the way he will be behaving. Mayor is supposed to be a top man, the first citizen. But the act doesn't allow mayor to be assertive over there.

[00:11:40] So that is the first flaw as regards our urban governance is concerned. Because you don't treat the mayor with respect to everything. It is up to the chief minister. The chief minister is scared of sharing power with the mayor. Whereas if you take New York or Chicago, when Rudolph Galani was the mayor of New York, he was a very powerful man. Correct. The president gave him that power to be the mayor of New York. And when the 9-11 took place, Rudolph Galani was the one who was handling all the... Can any mayor have the guts to control the Bangalore city?

[00:12:10] The mayor has to go and visit police commissioner and say sir, sir, sir, sir in front of the... He has to, his own commissioner, commissioner he cannot have control. Right. So as you said, yes, there is a systemic flaw. It has to be corrected. Also, I mean, I feel like it is, you know, we have so many multiple agencies and so on, right? I mean, they are called parastatals. Yeah. Parastatals like BWSSB, BESCOM, International Airport, whatever, then BMTC, Bangalore City Police, Fire Force.

[00:12:40] So, who, when you, in so many meetings where I sit over there, people from outside the system ask, Who runs Bangalore? Who can control Bangalore? So, very difficult to say, who is controlling Bangalore? Right. Is it BBMP commissioner who controls or GBA commissioner? Or who controls? BWSSB, they don't care about the BBMP commissioner. They don't care about the mayor role. The mayor is head of the municipal pilot. He is not our head over there. Right.

[00:13:10] So, the mayor of BBMP, he is only the boss of, he is not the boss of Fire Force or this, you know, He has to literally beg the police commissioner, ah, please. I have seen the mayor begging in front of me for police protection or anything. Whereas the mayor should be in a position, I should be reporting to the mayor. So, it's definitely a flaw. Yeah. Yeah, you have a lot of overlapping responsibilities. Now, they have a minister in charge of Bangalore City over there. So, the minister in charge of Bangalore City is sort of roughly like the super mayor of Bangalore. Right.

[00:13:39] Yeah, I mean, because of these multiple different overlaps and perhaps lack of accountability for each of these folks, I mean, we see it play out on the roads, for example, right? I mean, BWSSB or BESCOM or formerly BESCOM will come and dig up the road and someone else will be required to, you know, fix the road and someone else will again dig it up and so on and so forth. And something similar may happen in across multiple other spheres as well, right, because of this.

[00:14:06] So, what do you think is the solution? I mean, do you think that we need one like governance structure for Bangalore itself or a city like Bangalore? Bangalore is a very big city. It needs an act in which the mayor should run Bangalore and all the parasitals of Bangalore should report to the mayor. The international airport, the transport, electricity, water supply, law enforcement, fire force.

[00:14:32] Everybody should report to the mayor. Mayor should be an important person over there. That is how other cities are run over there. Here it doesn't happen. Right. So, when we look at, you know, cities abroad, right, you mentioned New York or let's say even city-states like Singapore or Dubai and so on, right? What are they doing correctly that we can learn from? See, it is not that we are not aware of it. We are only refusing to share power, that's all. We all know the answers over there.

[00:14:59] We are a few. See, you take the example of why BBMP or GB elections are not being held because the mayors are having a good time taking the money from the government over there. So, they are all stalling the elections of the corporators over there. Right. All parties put together, whether it is my party, whether it is Congress party over there. They don't want corporators.

[00:15:23] You know, the MLS, the 26 or 24 MLS, they are the ones who are pocketing the money to ensure development and it is not happening also. Right. Okay, let's shift our focus to people itself, sir. When we observe Indians abroad, they seem to be a lot more culturally sensitive. So much so that we, oftentimes, I mean, it's hard to recognize that these are the same folks over here who are, you know, littering the roads or, you know, maybe let's say jumping traffic, you know, stops and so on and so forth.

[00:15:51] Why do you think that is the case? I mean, I don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with this. The answer, my friend is punishment. You try doing that, they'll whack you over there. They fine you over there. If you don't pay a fine, they'll throw you into prison. Here you say, you know who I am? I am somebody's nephew, I'm somebody's niece over there and somebody is connected. They'll pick up the phone call and then they go scot-free over there.

[00:16:13] Here, show me the person, I will show you the law. That is the reason. For that, the chief minister should be assertive. We have got weak chief ministers who are not bothered about things. So, you should have a person like Lik Kuan Gyu or David Ben Gurion, the Dubai King Zayed. They are examples of governance. We need such people only then people will... So, in the carrot-stick approach, the stick is really important.

[00:16:43] Stick is more important than the carrot. At least in India, the stick is more important. People have become fat eating carrots. So, I mean if you think about sustainable change, sustainable behavioural change, right? When it comes to just generally law as such. Like getting people to abide by the law and so on and so forth. So, you suggest that there should be harsher punishment for...

[00:17:08] See, first of all, for you to comply with law, you should set up a ground level infrastructure also. You cannot have bad and poor quality roads and expect people to observe lane discipline around those things over there. So, when you see, look at other countries, the roads are planned in such a way that accidents should not take place. Right. In our country, roads are made to connect one place to the other. They have got nothing to do with road safety.

[00:17:34] So, it is left to your imagination or left to your care and caution how you are able to save yourself on the road over there. For example, right turns over there, left turns over there, U-turns over there, overtaking. We don't... Road makers are not bothered about that at all over there. Whereas, you visit other countries, a lot of emphasis is there on road safety in road construction.

[00:17:58] Here, road safety becomes the responsibility of police department. Actually, road safety is the responsibility of the road makers over there. So, once you make... Same people in our own country, people go to USA, UK, Dubai, etc. They fall in line and they obey the laws of the land. They don't be held. But, whereas, you will be parking your car on the extreme left over there. Then, when you get the green signal, you want to take a right turn.

[00:18:25] You will be cutting across over there. So, that doesn't happen. Whereas, while making the road itself, you have to take a right turn over there. You bring that entire lane itself to the right so that there is an ease of taking a right turn. So, they don't do all this planning over there. We have civil engineers who are trying to be traffic engineers, meaning traffic engineers. There is a sense abroad that the system works for you. That if I follow the rules and if others follow the rules, I mean broadly it works out for all of us. Which I don't think... I get the sense that...

[00:18:54] No, our physical infrastructure doesn't allow you to follow rules. That is the problem. Right. Our legal infrastructure is so poor that they doesn't give punishment. If you kill a person on the road, what is the maximum punishment? Right. You are fined 5,000 rupees or 10,000 rupees. That's all. You kill even 10 people also. No problem. And you will get bail in police station. You don't have to go to court also. Whereas, you steal 25 rupees from somebody's pocket, you have to go to court.

[00:19:20] Because that is the way the Britishers had made the penal code. And despite the revision, we have retained it like that. For 304A, for death you caused in an accident, you can get bail in a police station itself. You don't have to go to the court also. Even in case of drunken driving and so on?

[00:19:38] In drunken driving, they have made it now. Because... See, in drunken driving, it is not that there are road safety laws over there. We have extended the drunken driving to culpable homicide not amounting to murder. Right. Drunken driving is basically a traffic offense. Isn't it so? Because if you include that as traffic offense, you will get bail immediately. So, in cases of drunken driving, we are using a different provision.

[00:20:03] We are using the 304A, culpable homicide not amounting to murder. Right. I am using that provision over there. So, there you don't get bail. You have to go to court, but in court you will get bail. Right. So, you have served in other areas as well, Bedagawi, Kodugu and so on. How does policing differ there?

[00:20:25] See, in rural areas, there is more responsibility on the police. In city, you can always transfer the burden because everybody is very close by. If there is a small problem, you shout loudly, policemen will come everywhere. Whereas, you are in Belgam or you are in Bailongal, you have to deal with your own problems. So, the courage quotient of the police officers is much higher over there. And they need to keep a closer touch with the people also over there. So, people are the best solvers of law and entrepreneurship. It is not the police. If people are good, you don't need police.

[00:20:51] And police cannot fight with people and try to suppress them over there. They need people's cooperation. That is why I have always been stressing on neighborhood policing as well as citizen-friendly policing. So, the citizens are taken into confidence over there. You cannot suppress citizens or try to control citizens. In those areas, police have got a good relationship with citizens and problems get solved over there.

[00:21:13] Yeah, that's… I mean, when I describe this situation to like people abroad that, you know, we have probably around 7.5 lakh villages and maybe like 15,000 or 15 to 20,000 police stations in total. Right. And that state capacity actually is famously short in India. Right. I mean, so large and so vast and everything. They are very surprised that even then, I mean, how is India functioning? Right.

[00:21:36] And I think there is a lot of family responsibility, social responsibility, community responsibility, which we take for granted. I mean, we don't appreciate it enough, I think. Especially outside of the larger cities and so on, there is that amount of self-policing that people and communities do. So, actually self-policing is very less here. We have got… It is because of moral policing to some extent things are… And it is because of criticism by neighbors, criticism of relatives. Correct.

[00:22:05] But I am only fearful even that it is also going away now. Now nobody is… Yeah. Like for example in Japan, if you say that I will go to a police station and complain against you, you will say, okay, you can do it. But if you tell, I will tell your teacher, they are more compliant over there. The teacher has got higher respect than the policeman over there. Yeah. So basically I am telling you, unless and until punishment is there, people are not going to fall in line.

[00:22:33] You don't punish people, you are pardoning them, left right in center. And if you have got money, people get away with anything over there. And if you visit all the jails, there is only the poor people who are there in jail. No rich people are in jails over there. So justice is also a tradable commodity. So these are things which you have to act. We can't just wish all these things. And while having this basic problem, you can't expect I am going to progress, I am going to become good and all.

[00:23:01] You have to address these basic things. Then only you can talk about a progressive country. Right. Sir, we would say, I mean one would say that, you know, police has a PR problem. Right. Which is that, you know, if you are if you pull a common citizen, right, they may have experienced some help from the police. But generally they feel that, okay, you know, police is like you name it. Right.

[00:23:22] I mean, they're inefficient, corrupt, rude, all of these other things. Yet, I mean, when of course, I mean, when there's crisis, I mean, they will rely on the police for, you know, See, we are still carrying a legacy of the British. Police was created to suppress the people over there. And unfortunately, the present toolers also using police to suppress the people over there. So if you, if you are failing in all your development friends, use the police to suppress the people over there.

[00:23:47] And governance ills cannot be solved with the police over there. They make police solve all governance ills. For example, your roads are not good, and your toll collection is bad. Police will collect money from there. And then most of the problems arise because the politicians are collecting money from police for transfers, cash for transfer.

[00:24:13] So the police has to collect money from the citizens or other take that money to pay the politicians over there. So you make them rid of this, it will take care of itself over there. Whereas in other countries, policemen don't have to pay money to work. Apart from probably Bangladesh and Pakistan, we share a common DNA of governments. Other places, no politician is deciding which police station you should be working on. Your politicians decide they collect money irrespective of all parties over there.

[00:24:42] So that is how it happens over there. And your governance flaws are the one which make the police corrupt over there. You set your governance correct, police cannot collect. There is no water, police has to step in over there. Sewage blockage, police has to come in over there. If the prices of agricultural commodities fall down, police has to come over there. So you are over utilizing the police also. If you are over utilizing an organization, that organization also will start exploiting the people. So that is what they are doing.

[00:25:09] Right. In some sense, it is a very frustrating job because you are at the front end of a totally inefficient system. It is actually not frustrating. Our fellows, I think, are enjoying also. Because they seem to be responsible for everything over there. Let's lift the veil a little more. I would love to understand what it is like to be a police officer.

[00:25:32] You were commissioner of Bangalore and also during a very sort of a precarious time as well, the peak of COVID, how you handle some of these situations and so on. Firstly, sir, you know, what is it like, you know, what is a day in the life of a police officer? Like as a commissioner of police, how do you start your day? I mean, do you have a morning briefing?

[00:25:54] See, when you are commanding a police leadership position, whether you are a constable or a head constable or a ASI or a sub-inspector or a circle inspector or a ACP, DCP, additional commissioner or police commissioner. The first and foremost quality you have to have is courage. If you have no courage and if you have got a PhD in couple of subjects, that doesn't work. You have to have courage. You have to have raw courage in handling a situation over there. Can you give an example?

[00:26:20] And in diffusing any situation over there. See, because most often what happens, all problems occur not because of policing, because of governance issues over there. So a number of times a policeman has to step in if there is a drinking water crisis, if there is a sewage crisis, if the prices of potatoes have fallen down, the price of tobacco has fallen down. There is a problem in the APMC over there. You have to immediately ensure that you call the correct people and see over there. So you should, nobody should be in a position to refuse your command. Of course, the CRPC gives you tremendous power to.

[00:26:51] So the courage to solve a problem has to be there. And what happens is that, when a problem has occurred, people now assume that it is the police is now going to solve the problem over there. I had to, in Victoria Hospital, the medicals went on a strike over there. They wouldn't listen to the doctor. Finally, we had to step in over there. We had to bring about peace over there. We had to tell them, we had to tell their own bosses, do this, do this, one, two, three. Then only your problem is going to be, I had to go to Victoria Hospital to talk to the medical doctor. It is not my, they could have solved that problem.

[00:27:20] Finally, it was their decision to remove some of these. I had to intervene, my discipline had to intervene to solve the problem over there. Even you take COVID also over there. All the time we did non-policing work we did over because none of the other people were available to do over there. See, for example, there is a department for feeding people that is the food and civil supplies department.

[00:27:47] Now, people were having no food and food was not available during COVID. So when I requested some people from Bellari to send me some little rice, I got an agent, a rich person from Bellari who sent me 200 bags of 200 kg rice. So every police station we made into a sort of place where food is served. What do you call it in the Punjabi language? Langars.

[00:28:14] Langars, like a langar over there. I used to get calls from USA saying, sir, my father has got a Mercedes-Benz, my mother has got a BMW. It is lying in the garage. There is no cook. There is no maid and there is no food. How can you help over there? So we used to send food to some of the apartments also over there because food was being, of course. And some of my DCPs had become so innovative because hotels were closed. I used to get invited by my DCP, sir.

[00:28:42] Today we are making pizza. We are having pizza over there. We are having pasta. We don't have to come for lunch over there. It means you have to put joy also into the whole thing because you have to beat the burden of drudgery. So my North East DC was Bhima Shankar over there. I said, sir, this five-star hotel's fellows have all, cooks have all landed up over here. They said they want to make pizzas over there. So I told them to, okay, we immediately made one patti and that. We are making pizzas over there. Rohini, my DCP in south over there. She said, sir, the five-star cooks are with me.

[00:29:12] I am making pasta today over there. Why don't you come for lunch? I am making pasta. It means, see, and used to make it in huge quantities and some, and lot of people used to pick it up. Our people were also being fed. We are also feeding. So all this is what I am telling you, what other departments are supposed to be doing. Other wings of the government supposed to be doing. Police ends up doing it all. So it is in those times we are in a very, very good name. We have converted number of our hoislas because crime was not there.

[00:29:36] All hoislas had become sort of ambulances for non-COVID ambulances or taking people to go to hospital for x-ray or what they had, ECG when they had, or those who had to go for diabetes. What do they go for that? The sugar tests and everything?

[00:30:01] No, no. During diabetes, what the cleaning of the… What do you call that? Dialysis or diabetes? Dialysis, for dialysis. So there was no public transport. So we have to go for dialysis. So we are utilizing hoislas for running. My DCPCR said, sir, see in police department we have about 250 dogs over here in Bangalore City, sir. She said, sir, sir, if you help me a little bit, I can cook food for about 2,000 dogs over there.

[00:30:28] So 10 times we cooked food for 2,000 dogs and we were feeding stray dogs over there. We were feeding stray horses over there. We were feeding stray cows over there. And of course we were feeding people, homeless people were already feeding over there. We were feeding birds also over there. So that is the… People saw police doing all these things. I can share pictures with you. Right. How my people were sharing, giving food to stray dogs also over there. So that is how we… Because the police is like one…

[00:30:57] The backbone of the whole government over there. Treat police well. That's why I used to tell a lot of chief ministers or home ministers, please discourage your politicians from exploiting policemen for transfer money. Because you want to make money, go make money in PWD, etc., etc. Don't squeeze policemen for money over there because you need these people. They are hardworking people over there and utilize them over there. See, these are the people who stand by you. After all, policemen also have their families. Once you allow a person to go home, the family members say, no, you don't go back.

[00:31:27] You will catch COVID and you will die. So I had to ensure that all my girls, means the lady constables, they were put in hotels over there. We got a lot of washing machines. From brand new washing machines, they got over there. I said, utilize them for washing their uniform. We got people to iron their dresses also over there, but don't go home now. If you will carry the disease home also over there. Or you will go home and it will be held back over there.

[00:31:53] And the guys used to be staying in Kalyan, went up over there, good food used to make for them over there. And we had someone to get their clothes cleaned, washed, ironed, etc. Running a city at that time was the biggest challenge because if the policemen ran away, who will run the city over there? Yeah. So, over 1000 barricades had been set up over there for people to, we had to stop people from moving over there. And still you had mad fellows, arrogant fellows, entitled fellows.

[00:32:21] We had to deal with them over there. And all the entire policing was being under the, not under CRPC or IPC. We were using the NDMA Act, National Disaster Management Act over there. So, under the provisions of the NDMA, we were seizing vehicles, booking people. Because where you want to book people under the provisions of CRPC over there? So, the NDMA Act was being, and we were also not being, we used to take away the vehicles, we used to seize that without major. Otherwise, they had to go to, so at the end of two, three days, we used to return the vehicle.

[00:32:50] Because people were also becoming desperate at that point of time now. And supplies had to come inside bang. You can't kill the city of 1.4 crores. You can make it sleep, but you can't kill the city over there. So, supplies had to come from Chikbalapur, cola, milk had to come, vegetables had to come. And we had to see, who was doing all these things? Police was doing all these things. So, that's why we were able to develop a very good rapport with them.

[00:33:15] So, I used to, my only work was that, to keep on visiting all my police constables, talking to them, raise their morale over there. You made a mistake, doesn't matter, I'll take care of it. You did good work, it's your credit. Take the credit. And I had to tell each constable, out of the 16,000 constables which we had there, you are the police commissioner. I mean, I had to literally tell them, see there are no laws. There is not one police, there are 16,000 police commissioners working at this point of time. Wherever you are standing, you are the police commissioner. Take a decision the way I would have taken a decision over there.

[00:33:45] So, that used to make them feel that. They made a mistake, I used to pardon a lot of mistakes also, done in good faith. So, that's how we were able to. As you are describing, what I am realizing is, the police has to be inventive, because the system itself is not optimized in a way that it can deliver proper governance to people. And the police person is the last person protecting, you know, order in the society.

[00:34:09] See, while even, I used to go to visit these police academies or passing out parade. I used to tell my police, I used to tell the IPS officers, I used to tell DYSP trainees, sub-inspector trainees, constables. See, look, police, you are seen every day. Politicians are, and other department officers are collecting money in corruption in crores. You collect a hundred rupees, you will bloody look like a villain.

[00:34:34] Because you made a, your hundred rupees will look like a couple of crores that you collected over there. So, keep your professional life clean. And another most important thing I have to tell them was that, your work is always seen and always judged. It is something like Virat Kohli and Sanya Mirza. Virat Kohli and Sanya Mirza are playing. The moment they can make a mistake, people know they made a mistake over there. Same thing, policing also, you made a mistake, immediately people will know. Whereas if a politician or a judge or an IAS officer has made a mistake,

[00:35:04] it will take five years of people to know they have made a mistake over there. Whereas if a policeman may, as a commissioner, I make a mistake, one minute you will know I made a mistake. Because at that point of time, I have to take split second decisions also, no? Decision making is important. So how to take good decisions? You have to take good decisions only when you are well informed, number one. Number two, you have to have very good network of people who stand by you. So what is it that you have to do?

[00:35:31] You have to have a very good networking capability where people know you, your own qualities. Suppose he made a mistake also, people should say he made, he took a decision in our favour but things went wrong. So it happens over there. So it is not easy to be a policeman in a country like India, where there is so much of freedom and anybody can say anything, anybody can do anything and there is no punishment also.

[00:35:56] You mentioned courage and you said that that's an integral skill for a police officer or a police person, let's say. But often times we see that in any government functioning as such, the person who sticks their neck out is most on the chopping block. And so there is a sense of status quo-ism that happens. Let things run the way they are and I will stay out of things as best as possible, complete my tenure and move on. So how do you inspire the average person to think?

[00:36:25] See, I used to tell my younger colleagues, don't do things very fast in government and don't delay also very fast. If you are told to do something, if you do it that day evening or next day morning, if you are very fast in doing things also, it will be called wasted interest. This means you have got something in your mind, your interest is there. If you don't do anything and are you sitting there, it's called wasted interest. So between wasted interest and wasted interest, you have to do something.

[00:36:55] So you do your work. And as it regards sticking your neck out is concerned over there. Police have always been sticking their neck out over there. They have got into problems. You have been seeing in these papers so many times after a strong rainfall over there, roads are blocked over. Some ASI or head constable is cleaning mud to see that water goes away. He's helping somebody cross the street over. He's doing the work of DBMP and GBA. See, things have to keep running. Now, for example, people keep blaming Bangalore City for traffic over there.

[00:37:24] I'm telling you, Bangalore City does not have a traffic problem. Bangalore City has got a mobility and a transportation problem. If Bangalore City had a traffic problem, you will never reach from K. R. Puram to Jainagar. You are still able to reach because there is no traffic problem. Traffic is still moving. But Bangalore City has got a transportation and a mobility problem, which is not a police problem. It is a governance problem. Right.

[00:37:50] So, which means that there is a lot of pressure on the roads itself. I mean, we don't have like enough metros. My boys and my girls do the work of Descom, do the work of BWSSB, do the work of GBA, do the work of BMTC. So, we do all kinds of work and that is how we teach. Because things should not come to a standstill. If police also raise their hands and say, I can't do things, where should people go? Whom should that?

[00:38:17] But we also should invest more on police morale, police infrastructure and police skill sets also. What is the biggest hindrance for a police officer today? Everything is in hindrance. We work on all hindrances. Everything is in hindrance for them over there. You tell me which is a smooth path for them. And because we work on the 1886 act, we are working also over there. We are not even working on a 2026 or a 2000 act over there.

[00:38:42] Where we are subordinate to judiciary, we are subordinate to civil administration. Okay, no arm in being subordinate. But still the infrastructure at the disposal and the training can much be upgraded over there. And the reward system can be much better. There is corruption at every level of society and so too in the government as well. How do you think we can get rid of corruption in the police, let's say? Why are you talking about police corruption?

[00:39:11] Talk about political corruption. Now, there are 1,17,000 police persons. I will give you a hypothetical figure. Suppose all of us are corrupt over there. We make about 1000 crores per year. Imagine 1000 crores from the director general of police. We all make money. First of all, we will never get an opportunity to make 1000 crores. So how much money we have made? We would have made 12,000 crores in one year over there. But look at the government.

[00:39:41] Hundreds and thousands of crores are getting filtered. Why are you not talking about that? Just because when police constable took some 100 rupees from someone to own up to you, there is outrage over there. You don't come and vote. It's more visible. You don't question your governance. You don't question your leaders over there. You don't question inefficiencies in the government. You don't question policy. You don't question paralysis in policy over there. If you are talking about this is a very, very, what you say, low governance audit.

[00:40:10] When you only think that policemen are corrupt over there. How much of our policemen is corrupt over there? No policemen has ever become rich on account of being. Whereas politicians and other officers have become, they are full of gold, silver, etc. So many times policemen have been raided by the Lokayipta. What is it that they have got? A couple of lakhs here and there. Whereas, first of all, no politician gets raided by Lokayipta because they are all well protected. It's always some PWD engineer or someone. So even with that.

[00:40:40] So when they, whatever, where you get land, you get gold, cash, etc. Right. You tell me which policemen house has been raided and you have got a lot of it. See, I'll tell you policemen if he makes money, no. Out of every 100 rupees he makes over there, 25 to 30% of that money goes away in running his own office. Running his own. Another 25 to 30% ends up in taking care of his seniors over there. Whatever remains, he tries to pocket it over there.

[00:41:09] That also is not able to do it decently over there. And if he gets that money also, he has no time to enjoy that money. Because our working system is such that you put so much of pressure on that police person over there. That you have to be available. But the act says he is available, a policeman will be available for 24 hours. Nowhere in the world such a provision. I was in Pristina, Kosovo. I saw a bomb blast taking place. This is part of the UNT. United Nations over there. So, there are about 36 police stations there over there.

[00:41:37] I saw the head of the police station over there. He was having coffee with his girlfriend over there. Next to the bomb blast. He said, by God, what the hell? He said, I'm not on duty. The guy on duty will take it. Tomorrow morning, I'm going to deal with that matter over there. Whereas, in our case, call him, call that fellow, call him, panic. So, our method of working itself is so much stressful over there. And they put… This guy is having a drink with his girlfriend and there's a bomb blast.

[00:42:04] Every other joker is there when the forensics are there, the dog squad is there, all fellows are there. He is calm and police sitting there. He is not even bothered to find out. He said, tomorrow morning, when I don my uniform and walk into the police station, I will be in charge. Today, I'm not in charge. So, I refuse to be a part of this. Wow. People often bring up police reforms and say it's long due and it has to change and so on. So, what do you think in your opinion?

[00:42:31] Technology, training, resources, some sort of a structural change? What do you… See, our system still operates on the old 1882. That needs police… See, today we have 1,17,000 police persons in Karnataka over there. Out of which, over 80% are constables over there. Earlier, constables were not educated. They used to wear the big chaddi over there and then they were told what to do.

[00:42:58] But today, my constables are engineers, they are post-graduates. They are… So, you… And because they are constables, they are not given any independent works over there. They cannot do a petition inquiry, they cannot do a mazhar, they cannot record a statement. So, you say that… For everything, they need to add constables for them. You first empower the policeman at the grassroots level. Things will improve. That is the first reform that we need.

[00:43:22] Second is introducing as much technology as possible during the training phase itself over there. Right. Then police will develop very well. And of course, the most important thing is don't interfere with police department. That is all reforms which we need over there. So, in your career of 30 plus years in the police, what were some of the most difficult decisions you had to make? Actually, you made difficult decisions every day over there because you make one section of the people unhappy, then you have to…

[00:43:51] How to assuage them is a big… See, when I was CP over here, we had to… See, when the DK Shukumar was arrested and he came from railway station, so airport amongst his supporters over there. And the government of the day panicked because it is going to lead to a lot of problems over there. So, you have to ensure that you are in charge. All the time, area domination should be your… The moment you are soft, somebody else will start dominating you.

[00:44:16] So, the constant fear of the police is that, despite all the democracy, compromises, adjustment politics and all these things… You have to see that as an organization, you are dominating the scenario. So, that is the first and the toughest choice that you make over there. Whether it is handling CINRs… Anuchet was my DCP in Bangalore, West End. We handled 400 protests of CINRs. He could not say no to anybody over there. So, it is handling a situation at that point of time.

[00:44:44] You saw how much of a law and order problem took place in Delhi, where about 60 people were killed in the North East Delhi. Mumbai people were killed, Hyderabad people were killed. What happened? Nothing happened. Not a tire also burned in Bangalore. See, things are normal. Normalcy is our biggest gift over there. It may be of no use to you. But for me, it is huge thing. So, because in police language, no… What is the same thing, sir? All the peaceful is.

[00:45:14] The same thing is that, if I ask any DCP, sir… How are things? Sir, everything is peaceful, sir. Everything is peaceful, sir. So, that means you… The language that is used by the DCP of the police person is that, if you ask how are you, it will say everything is peaceful, sir. If nothing happens, it's a good day. Nothing happens, it's a good day. So, that is his… Assessment. That is his assessment and that is his, what you say, strength. If something has happened.

[00:45:42] So, this relationship between police and politicians, right? Often, you know, at least what we see on television or in films and so on, it's caricatured as, you know, the politicians either being abusive for the police folks and… And, you know, there's a little bit of animosity between both these… See, some police persons have bent backwards and tried to police persons, politicians, and they have paid a very heavy price for that. In Karnataka itself, we saw one DCP who went all the way to police, Alal Jalan Jalappa landed in prison over there.

[00:46:12] And we have seen other… Politicians will want to use you. They have no love for you. They want to only use you. After you use, you are dumped. And the more usable you are, the less respect they have for you. So, politicians… I have seen… Now, today I am a politician over there. I may not be a very big politician over there. But I have seen politicians, level of chief ministers, home ministers, etc., etc. They will attempt… If you allow yourself to be utilized, fine.

[00:46:39] Now, there is a particular additional DGP who was in charge of recruitment. So, the politicians used to tell him that why don't you recruit so and so, so and so. I will make you police commissioner. So, that fellow went here and there, monitor… He played… What do you say… He tinkered with the system. And he obliged all the politicians who wanted people to be recruited of their choice. They said, we will make you police commissioner.

[00:47:05] Finally, when the lid blew up, he went to jail. And today is under suspension and is going to retire. Whereas the politicians have gone unpunished. Their work is done. So, you should know where to draw your line. Because after you finish your training, you have to take a oath. You take all policemen from constable to IPS officers. We take a oath, alleging ourselves to the constitution. Some are able to do it. Some are not able to do it. Some are able to adjust it. Some are able to manage it. So, it's all your personal equation how you are able to handle that politician over there.

[00:47:35] Now, as a politician, you know, what has been the hardest transition for you? See, as a police officer, I was accustomed to a lot of privileges. Now, I have no privileges. I have to fend for myself over there. So, I am sort of hard pressed on my own resources. So, I have to cut down my lifestyle to make it very, very simple to see that. In fact, earlier I used to have multiple cars, multiple drivers.

[00:48:05] Now, I have one car and one driver. So, if I don't have that driver, I have to drive my car myself. If my car is not working, I have to take a metro and go. So, you are hard pressed on resources. That is the most important thing that I can tell you about that, number one. Number two, you are hard pressed because the organization is correct. You have to build your own organization over there. If you have to build an organization, even if you are in government over there, automatically the entire subordinate structure is an organization. Right.

[00:48:31] In politics, if you are an organization, means you have to pay money or you have to have your set of followers or your party, etc. for which you need to spend money over there. So, sometimes you need not. You can be a one-man army and your voice should be so loud enough to ensure that. So, these are the challenges that you find because you are absolutely on your own.

[00:48:55] Sometimes I find it very ridiculous when money is paid and people go to Water University, Cambridge University, etc. where IIS and IPS officers are sent to learn leadership over there. But I can tell you with the guarantee that a Gram Panchayat Adhyaksha has got more leadership qualities than an IIS officer and IPS officer. Because he has to fend for himself. He has to look for his, he has to speak, he has to spend money, he has to earn the supporters,

[00:49:21] he has to communicate, he has to handle challenges, which no university, no management school can teach you over there. Management schools can teach you well-endowed educated people how to take. It means my entire, what you say, this take or this corporate leadership or official leadership has gone for a task. Because I find the best leaders are the grassroot leaders who grow without anything at their disposal. They have to create their own. Here everything is given to you.

[00:49:47] Somebody is paying for your leadership tuition, somebody is giving you airfare, somebody is giving you hotel accommodation. And if you still don't bloody learn leadership over you, you bloody need to be kicked on your butt, that's all. Yeah, I mean, you're in such a close contact with reality. Yeah, exactly. That you are bound to learn, right? I mean, it's learn or perish basically. There in an office you can say, you can say get out, I don't want to talk to you. Can I as a politician, can I say get out, I don't want to talk to you. I had to swallow all that thing over there.

[00:50:14] I said, well, look, let me hear you properly. Let me solve your problem. Let me see what I can do over there. So you learn patience also. I mean the leadership is absolutely different. In fact, I would see today that the leadership either in bureaucracy or in police or in management is very, very shallow compared to what you need to do. Hard core political leadership over here. Is that one of those things that you have grown to appreciate now in your role as a politician?

[00:50:43] Yeah, I am appreciating it now more. That you know politician, you need to have more patience. Every day I'm learning here. Every day I'm learning here more and more. Right. Right. What are you optimistic sir about the city and about India in general? See, I'm very happy that the youth started taking interest in governance. More and more youth should be part of it. All these old foggies who have looted, plundered and scraped the system across political parties should be shown their door.

[00:51:12] They have done extreme disservice to the country and to the city over there. It is this new generation, especially the Gen Z. They should take active interest in politics, civic affairs, constitution and be a part of governance over there. And I am full of appreciation of the American constitution which says that you can be president only for two terms, not more than that. We never had that in our own country.

[00:51:39] So that is why you have got people who are Khandani politicians, family-wise, grandfather, son, grandson, great-grandson. They are the ones who are sitting in politics and literally running the country like a mafia. So that should stop IAC. But I don't know whether they can legally stop it or not. But definitely more and more young people should come inside politics. They should do politics as a sabbatical and then go back to their work over there. We should not, we don't want 24 hour politics. We don't want 24 hour politicians.

[00:52:09] 24 hour politicians is a great danger for the whole country. So you're saying someone who has a professional career. Yeah, it should be chartered accountant, lawyer, professor, management guys. All these people should, or business person, anthropologist, they should come, do their term and go back to this one. We should not have these 24 hour politicians over here. Like professional politicians? We don't have, we don't. Professional politicians are the most dangerous philosophers over there.

[00:52:38] They ruin, suck this country, bleed this country, rob this country and plunder the country over there. Right, sir. Thank you so much for this very candid conversation. We were chatting for about half an hour or 40 minutes even before the camera. I mean, there's absolutely no difference off camera or on camera, right? So that's what we get from. It's always a joy to speak and speak to the next generation. Our generation have spoiled the country enough. So we only have, next generation should not spoil the country.

[00:53:08] Right. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you so much for being on Bharat. Thank you so much. Thank you.