🤯How PM Modi Won, Deepfake Politics & India's AI Race 🚨| Shashi Shekhar Vempati

[00:00:00] I think that was the starting point for what you saw in 2014 where digital engagement played a significant role in the entire election campaign. So what this did was it kind of removed the barriers for professionals to get more deeply involved in the electoral process, which I think was a very... Sahabharti was still in the 1980s and 90s. It had not modernized itself for the 21st century. The reforms that should have happened in those 10 years did not happen.

[00:00:26] So to take an organization which was behind the times by more than a decade, almost two decades, and to bring it to the 21st century, I think was the big thing. Biggest challenge, which is deepfakes. We saw it during the 24th where, you know, fake video created an entire narrative which became a political issue. So how do you regulate it? Again, there's no easy answers to that. I think world over there's a challenge for every democracy and especially when you are a...

[00:00:52] Shashi Shekhar was one of the key minds behind BJP's digital strategy during the 2014 elections. He later became the first non-bureaucrat CEO of Prasar Bharti, leading its digital transformation. Namaste Shashi ji. Thank you so much for being on Bharatvaarta. We met perhaps, I think, 12 or 13 years back.

[00:01:17] And you are one of those folks who has straddled three worlds very successfully, starting in tech, moving to media, and then policy. And now, I suppose, I'm in your back to tech right now, where it all started. There's plenty that I want to talk to you about, but, you know, I'm tempted. Whenever I meet the folks who are kind of driving these initiatives in 2014, I want to take our audience back to the time. You know, how things were, what led up to the election of 2014.

[00:01:46] And if you could just paint a picture for us. Sure. Thank you, Roshan Cariappa. And very happy to be on this podcast. And, you know, my compliments to, you know, for you to build this platform where you're able to converse with, you know, different voices. Going back to 2014, I think, in fact, we'll have to rewind a little 10 years prior, 2004. Because 2004 was the turning point for a lot of us. Because when nobody thought that the Vajpayee government would be voted out.

[00:02:16] And you were suddenly looking at a scenario where Sunya Gandhi would be running the country. And it was, you know, a moment that was very difficult to a lot of people, especially professionals. Because you thought the country was on a certain trajectory in terms of reforms and where it was headed. And then came this root shock.

[00:02:36] So that was kind of the trigger point for many of us to, you know, start looking at how to, what role can people like us play, right? Professionals who are otherwise into certain careers. How can they contribute to anything in this domain so that we can influence what happens in the country? And that was the genesis for a lot of my writing, online writing.

[00:03:03] And which also brought me in touch with various people. In fact, an entire community sort of coalesced online. Most prominent was Rajesh Jain. Rajesh, if you recall, was one of India's .com pioneers. He had created this platform called India World, Samachar.com, which he then sold it to Sifi. Right. So after the 2009 elections, he had, you know, created a platform called Friends of BJP.

[00:03:30] And sorry, in the 2009 elections. And after that is when I really got to know him. And we started corresponding online. And so there was a thought process on can we create a digital platform to engage people who believe that the nation needs economic reforms. It needs, you know, certain trajectory in terms of reforms and so on. And that should be the agenda going forward.

[00:03:55] And it was very clear to us that digital technologies would play an increasingly important role in engagement. If you look at 2009 itself, there was quite a bit of buzz around blogging at that time. That, you know, bloggers for Advani, bloggers for BJP kind of thing. So that was just the beginning of, you know, using digital to engage people. And so the thought process was that by 2014, the digital penetration would be high enough that, you know, digital platforms can play an important role.

[00:04:24] So that kind of led to the creation of Neeti Digital around 2012, 2013 when Rajesh founded it. And I joined him in 2013. And then we created a couple of platforms. One was called Neeti Central, which was for news. Then we created India 272, which was basically a digital platform for volunteers, people like us, where they had the singular question, right? I'm a doctor, I'm a student, I'm a lawyer.

[00:04:54] How can I get involved? And people like us would not normally want to get involved in a political activity or a campaign, right? You don't even know how to do it or where to go. So what this did was it kind of removed the barriers for professionals to get more deeply involved in the electoral process, which I think was a very important thing for the democracy.

[00:05:15] Otherwise, historically, elections were all about mobilizing crowds, paying them to come to the rallies, paying them to come to vote and so on. That was a kind of political culture that was predominant in the country. And now suddenly you have a means by which professionals who otherwise have a job, have a profession, have something that keeps them occupied, but are also conscious enough to contribute to the democratic process. For them, what is the way to do it?

[00:05:44] And that is what India 272 allowed. Because it gave a mechanism by which they could provide input, they could provide feedback, they could mobilize others, engage with them. So I think that was the starting point for what you saw in 2014, where digital engagement played a significant role in the entire election campaign. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're still talking about 50, 60 million internet users, right? I mean, 2013, 2014, around that, right?

[00:06:14] We have, you know, probably 10x or more of that today. And, you know, people opine 15 times a day on wide variety of things today. Versus, you know, back then where there were these few blocks, like your off stumped, for example, I remember where we used to follow and get a sort of a different perspective from mainstream media, you know?

[00:06:36] Because, I don't know, the columns or, you know, what was written in the mainstream dailies at that time had a very different sort of a touch. I mean, we felt it was kind of out of touch with reality and so on. Right. From there to now, do you think digital has become like mainstream and what has it caused in terms of, let's say, narratives and so on? I mean... So many things have changed, right? Right. Firstly, I think if you go back to 2013, 2014, digital was primarily browser-based. Yeah.

[00:07:04] It was primarily desktops, people accessing the internet at work because not many would have had high-speed internet at home. In fact, I remember Mr. Modi used to, was the first, of course, to start live streaming his speeches on YouTube. But the challenge was that, you know, people abroad could watch them. There weren't too many people in India who had the bandwidth to watch and many of his rallies or speeches would happen during the day. Right. So how will people, if they're at work, they can't watch it. Right.

[00:07:33] So then we came up with this idea that why don't we create an online radio? So Neeti Radio was launched. It was called NWR. And in that, we used to basically put an audio-only stream of his live speeches. Right. And those would get a lot of audience because people who have, you know, mobile phones, low bandwidth, or at workplaces, it was very easy for them to tune in and listen. So all such juggard happened at that time.

[00:08:02] Now, if you, you know, fast forward, many things have changed, right? Your mobile data penetration just shot up because you had the whole 4G phenomenon that happened. So more people had access to low cost, large volumes of mobile data that they could consume. Right. And then social media usage, of course, has become a lot more broad-based. If you recall in 2013-14, it is largely English, audience English-based content.

[00:08:30] The big change, of course, in the last 10 years, more or 12 years is the penetration of Indian languages, more language-based content, more user-generated content on YouTube, like yourself and others. Right. And, of course, close to a billion people now consuming mobile data on their phones. So all of these have, I think, had a dramatic effect.

[00:08:54] What that also means is that it's that much more difficult now to get your message out because there's just so much content and everyone is, attention spans have shrunk. You have platforms like Instagram, which have popularized a new format of short videos where practically you have to get your message down in 30 seconds or one minute. If you don't, you've lost the audience. So I think the nature of the challenge has changed significantly.

[00:09:21] Also, now you have an entire new generation which has come online, right? And these are kids who were born in the early 2000s who are now the voters. Right. And so their entire formative world, unlike my formative world, is all online. So and to them, Twitter and Facebook are legacy media platforms. So you have to be that much more creative in terms of how you engage with them because they are on Discord. They're on, you know, God knows what other.

[00:09:51] They don't read newspapers. They don't watch television. Yeah. So it's a very different online landscape. You think the nature of elections and politics itself has changed because now digital is table stakes, right? And you see that, you know, political parties obviously are spending a ton on digital as well, trying to get their message across and so on. How has it changed the nature of the elections? I mean, has it become more presidential at every level or, you know, what do you think has changed? Not really.

[00:10:20] I wouldn't say it has become presidential. I think what earlier used to be, you know, mass messaging, right? Where you just had to do a few big rallies and you got your message out. Now it is a lot more targeted messaging. I think that is what has changed. Because your voter is not necessarily someone who's coming to the big rallies, who's not on mass media, who's not reading a newspaper, who's not watching television. So you need to get very targeted messages.

[00:10:48] And I think that is where more sophistication in terms of the messaging is important, be it through, you know, WhatsApp groups, Telegram channels, or, you know, Instagram reels that the algorithms know how to target the audience. So you'll have to try all these different things. I think that is what has really changed. But I don't think the nature of politics has dramatically changed. However, earlier the feedback loop was much longer.

[00:11:18] Now the feedback loop is a few milliseconds or a second, right? So that creates a lot of pressure on the political parties and the leaders. Because now they are, they have to be much more watchful, much more mindful. And also they're expected to, you know, react. Right. Which also poses a challenge because there's so many things happening. You can't react to everything, right? And sometimes you end up reacting to the wrong things and that creates its own narrative and so on.

[00:11:47] So it's a complex world. And I don't think there are any easy answers. And with AI and deepfakes, it's only getting worse. Right. Considering that these algorithms influence, you know, the narrative so, I mean, so significantly, right? I mean, there's always this thrust that, you know, we should regulate them and so on and so forth. Right. So what are your thoughts on regulating big tech? Well, I think there are two, three issues here, right?

[00:12:14] One is the nature of the big tech platforms. The fact that most of them are, you know, Western origin platforms. You have very few levers against them in terms of control. For example, we saw what happened during the Ukraine-Russia conflict where one fine morning RT was just shut off YouTube, right? And similar things can happen in the future.

[00:12:42] So you have that challenge with the nature of big tech. Second is, of course, the algorithms themselves, which have an effect of reinforcing certain content that you consume. And it only, you know, makes it further magnifies or exaggerates information. And that creates a problem as well. Especially if during elections, we saw both in the American presidential elections where there was Russian influence operations.

[00:13:11] We've seen it in both 2019 and 2024. Just the sheer volume of anti-India narrative, be it videos, be it articles, which have been, you know, gaining a lot of traction through these platforms, through these algorithms. And then they have this reinforcing effect. So how do you deal with that? Third, I think, is going to be the biggest challenge, which is deepfakes.

[00:13:37] We saw it during the 24th where, you know, fake video created an entire narrative which became a political issue. We are seeing that almost every day now. Practically every single day there is a new fake, deepfake video. So how do you regulate it? Again, there are no easy answers to that. For example, India had come out with these IT rules to regulate online news and so on, which got challenged in the courts, which is, you know, still not fully rolled out.

[00:14:04] So there are no easy answers to it. I think world over, there is a challenge for every democracy. And especially when you are such a large English-speaking population, you are more vulnerable to outside operations, influence operations. We saw it during operations in Noor as well. So there are no easy answers.

[00:14:25] One way that the government can potentially do something is perhaps require more stronger KYC norms so that we know who's, you know, putting out what content, where are they from. I think the feature that Twitter or X rolled out where you could at least pinpoint the origin. I think that was a good feature. Similar things we may have to do.

[00:14:50] Another thing that we could potentially look at is that the entire electronic media has a certain regulatory framework where there is editorial accountability. Print media has a certain framework which has editorial accountability. How can you let, you know, digital not have similar accountability norms? So I think those are things that should be easily doable. Yeah. No, I mean, I always found the difference very stark, right? Because on, let's say on television, you can only say mutual friend sahih hai.

[00:15:20] And then you tune into YouTube and they're literally giving you stock picking advice, right? I mean, this will double or triple or whatever. But yeah, I mean, you know, from Ku to Arata, I think, you know, this whole Indian social network thing has kind of failed. I don't know if it will succeed in the future, but it's had a very bad success rate, right? I mean, up until now. So the only alternative that we're forced with is to sort of Indianize these platforms, right?

[00:15:46] And to make it as transparent as possible and make sure that these folks follow the rules of the country, right? Similar to what you mentioned. I mean, if it's the same for print and television, make that apparent for digital as well. Right. Yeah. Well, see, I think one challenge we've had in India is in building strong consumer brands, digital brands. While at the same time, you had on the commerce side, fairly good success example, right? You had Ola in the ride sharing space.

[00:16:15] You had so many in the quick commerce space, Flipkart and, you know, Blinket and Zomato and all these guys, Big Basket. And now you have phone pay from a UPI payment standpoint. So there are certain success stories, but somehow these are not replicated into the social domain

[00:16:39] because maybe the network effects and the scale that you need to really have a good monetization model is that much more harder. The barriers are so steep. It's hard. So, yeah, that challenge will remain. What can we do to Indianize these platforms? I think the reality is that none of these products from the West have a growth path outside of India

[00:17:07] because they can't access the Chinese market. But the rest of the world doesn't have adequate scale in terms of English-speaking population for them natively to be, you know, adopters. So clearly, India is the big market for them. And I think the power of the market is something that we should perhaps more creatively leverage to regulate these guys. No, absolutely. I mean, you know, people keep crying about average revenue per user being low here and so on.

[00:17:36] But then, I mean, India is on the path forward, right? I mean, if our per capita increases, you know, there'll be a 10x sort of shift in ARPU as well, right? I mean, yeah. And if you look at some of these platforms like Cuckoo or Stage and others, I mean, they're making money, you know, running 100 mil plus sort of businesses just, you know, focused on content in India per se, right?

[00:18:04] I want to talk about this, you know, your role with Prasar Bharati. You were the first non-bureaucrat CEO of Prasar Bharati. How did that happen? How did that happen? When you first joined office, I mean, what shocked you the most? Given that, you know, you're from the private sector. So, of course, after the 2014 elections, one of the things that Rajesh and I were debating is what happens next with Niti Central, Niti Digital.

[00:18:33] Because the election was won, you know, what is its future? And so, over a period of time, we started winding it down. And that was when the government had asked me, you know, can you contribute to the public broadcasting platform, you know, Prasar Bharati, which runs Doodarshan and All India Radio. So, luckily, before I became the CEO, for almost a year, I was a board member. So, it was not as much of a shock, but it still, there was things that did shock me.

[00:19:01] But yeah, I did get a one-year sort of runway to land smoothly. So, as a board member, you don't understand everything, but you still do get a sense of the organizations. What shocked me overall, I would say, is that, you know, we often use this phrase, right, the lost decade, to describe the period between 2004 and 2014.

[00:19:29] Prasar Bharati would have been a prime example of that lost decade. The reforms that should have happened in those 10 years did not happen. Prasar Bharati was still in the 1980s and 90s. It had not modernized itself for the 21st century. I think that is the biggest thing. There was practically no IT to speak of. Most of the operations were paper-based. And digital was very minimal.

[00:19:56] So, to take an organization which was behind the times by more than a decade, almost two decades, and to bring it to the 21st century, I think, was the big thing in that period. Right. So, yeah. So, you did a bunch of these things at Prasar Bharati, right?

[00:20:14] I mean, all of them super significant, like digitizing the archives, modernizing the broadcast equipment, expanding All India Radio, expanding the Dish TV network, and even figuring out some kind of commercial viability for Prasar Bharati itself. Now, again, I mean, these seem like they should be done in due course of time, right? And when you say last decade or so, right? I mean, why do you think these were not being done? Political priorities, right?

[00:20:43] Because it's not that. In fact, one of the things that probably shocked me even more is the number of reports by different committees at various points in time which talked about how Prasar Bharati should be reformed, including one hard copy report where there was no digital copy of it. I've never seen anywhere it may be mentioned. There was one hard copy of a report done by a committee headed by Mr. Narendra Murthy himself. So, there's quite a bit of history in terms of the number of people who thought, you know, this has to be reformed.

[00:21:13] But I think the political priorities were such that nobody really ever got down to reforming it. Also, the manner in which Prasar Bharati was structured was also a problem. Over a period of time, the amendments happened to the act because, again, in fact, the history of Prasar Bharati, itself is an interesting thing, right? The idea was first mooted by Mr. Advani when he was INB minister after the emergency period that, you know, media should have freedom. We should have an autonomous public broadcaster.

[00:21:43] That was the idea. The act itself came into existence in the early, I think, 1990 or 91. When the then government, I think the VPC government had been voted out and it was the Chandrasekhar government. That was when the act was passed. For nearly seven years, till 97, the act was not implemented. Now, the only reason the act finally got implemented because there was so much resistance. Nobody wanted to let go of control.

[00:22:13] There was a Supreme Court verdict sometime, I think, 95 or 96, which basically the net gist of that verdict was that no government entity can do broadcasting. There has to be an arms line. So that literally forced. But then again, if you look at both the times when the act was passed and the act was implemented, it was not a strong government. It was a weak third party, third front government, which was on the verge of collapse.

[00:22:40] Because if you recall the first one, which was the Chandrasekhar government, didn't last very long. It collapsed. The 97, when this got implemented, it was a united front government. And J.PAL RIDI was the INB minister. And I think they were barely a few months away from collapse was when the act was implemented. So it's kind of odd. It tells you a lot about the nature of administration and bureaucracy in India that it is so hard to get real tough reforms done. Everyone wants control.

[00:23:10] So once this act got implemented, there were a series of amendments. And they ended up creating a very Hydra-like structure for the board. Where there was a CEO and then there are these members for personnel and finance and so on. So what happened, I think, for almost most part of Prasar Bharti is that these appointments happened at different points in time. With different individuals being placed by whoever was in power. And as a result, there was no cohesion.

[00:23:40] And when there is no cohesion at the board level, at the senior management level. And the government continues to hold control on the almost 20,000 employees. You can never bring any professional reform. Because you have this bureaucratic control. And you have a Hydra-like structure where everyone is at odds. What changed in the 2016-17 period was for the first time, you had a chairman, a CEO and a member of finance who were all professionals who were aligned.

[00:24:10] So that cohesion made a huge difference. And you had ministers who were supportive of that cohesion. And then that kind of, you know, moved things and reforms. It created the environment for reforms to happen. Then of course, COVID was both a challenge and a blessing. Because COVID not only forced us to do certain things, it also helped us to, you know, implement certain reforms. Because people had no choice. They had to adopt it. What is the attitude of, like, let's say a bureaucrat who's been in the government

[00:24:40] or in the administration for like, let's say 15-20 years, when someone like yourself who's an outsider comes in with some fresh ideas or new ways of thinking and so on? How easy or difficult is it to get stuff done? It's not easy. At least it was historically not easy. Perhaps even now it is not that easy. One thing has changed. That a large part of the top bureaucracy now comprises of engineers. Many of them are IITians.

[00:25:07] So at least there's a certain culture, technocratic culture that has crept in. Not by design, but by default. Just because those are the guys who are. Many of the secretaries right now are, you know, people with IIT background, engineers. You have a cabinet secretary, Mr. Somonathan, a top-notch professional. So people with a different mindset are there, more reform-minded. So I think it's relatively better, but it's not easy. The reason being, individually they're all great professionals.

[00:25:33] There's no doubt about it because many of them have gone to the top schools and they have that background. I think what happens is that culturally there is an incentive to not take risks. Because the best example is the coal scam, right? The coal scam, Manmohan Singh is the minister in charge. There is a junior minister. None of them are held to account. The only guy who has to go to jail is the civil servant who signed on the files.

[00:26:03] The coal secretary, right? It's so very unfortunate is that the manner in which these rules have been designed is that nobody wants to stick their neck out and take risks in decision-making. Because ultimately, they will be the ones who will have to answer if something goes wrong. So that has kind of, over the decades, created this culture of risk avoidance, kick the can down the road, somebody else's problem and so on.

[00:26:33] And then you have this spaghetti of rules from various bodies, right? Vigilance Commission, Lokpal, RTI, all sorts of things which are basically general financial rules, the CAG audits. They've just tied down every organization. And what makes it worse are the historical legacy HR problems in the government, which have been litigated for decades. Like Prasar Bharti had 1000 plus court cases.

[00:27:04] Majority, almost 80% of them, commercial must be maybe 10% or 12%. Almost 88% of them are service matters. So when you say HR related, I mean… Service matters, right? Promotions, termination, promotions, pensions, all kinds of nonsense. Recruitment rules. Everything is litigated and litigated to death. Right. To the point where there's an entire cadre in Prasar Bharti where people were retiring at the entry level.

[00:27:31] So they spent their entire 20-30 years in Prasar Bharti at the level that they started in. Because what happened, one set of people were recruited in certain pathways, another set in a different pathway. Both of them went to court against each other. Finally, everybody lost. Nobody won. Right. Right. So that is the kind of environment. And so when you come from the outside and you start operating in a corporate, private sector like Manor,

[00:27:56] it is not easy because all these people have this burden of this legacy that they carry on them. Right. And you can't just say, I'm going to change everything. So it takes time. It takes time to win their confidence. More importantly, understand what are their concerns, fears, you know, what is holding them back. And then you have to find pathways to, you know, push reform. That is the way out. You know, I'm going to ask you a very naive question, right?

[00:28:22] I mean, is there some semblance of like a sprint planning or something within these offices? Or I mean, how does it work? You know, because I'm just curious as someone from the outside trying to think about how these folks function. Right. I mean, do they just clock in the hours, go back? Because I don't want to be as pessimistic and think that. Right. But how do folks function? There are, I think, three, four pathways for how work gets done. Right.

[00:28:51] One is the laws that have already been passed and the rules therein require you to do certain regulatory functions. So that's your basic job, right? That you have to continue to do. Like if it's a case of INB, it is issuing licenses to channels, you know, approving newspapers, whatever registration, formalities, those kinds of things.

[00:29:15] Then there is this whole, what used to be the earlier, the planning commission cycle. And now it is the Niti Aayog, where each ministry or department goes to them saying that in this sector, these are the kinds of projects or schemes that we want to run. And this could be like the highway system or the high-speed rail system.

[00:29:41] Or in our case, it would be like expanding the DTH platform for 100 plus channels or upgrading all of Doordarshan to high-definition radio or high-definition TV or all-in-year radio to, you know, do digital radio and so on. So that is another track where you go, make these presentations, project budgets for three years, five years, whatever, get your approvals. And then you run those.

[00:30:08] Now, for example, India AI mission is one such thing, national quantum mission, so on. So that's a second track. The third track has to do with reforms that are forced on you because of some court order, right? Where you have no choice because you have to comply with the court, you have to do certain things. So that kind of forces certain, you know, activity.

[00:30:33] The fourth, which is perhaps the most time-consuming and the most pressing, is the political agenda, right? Every time there's a political party that is in power or a minister or, you know, there are certain political priorities. And that will then take priority over everything else. So if you're a bureaucrat, you're basically juggling these four things. Right. You know, people say it requires a lot of tact to get stuff done, right?

[00:31:00] Because everything doesn't, you know, there's no linear part. Yeah, there's no linear part. And what makes it worse is there is no, there's not enough, what should I say, guarantee of tenure, right? Because these guys can be moved. Yeah. So that also creates a lot of disincentive for taking, you know, long-term complex reform measures. Because you don't know if you're going to be around six months from now.

[00:31:30] And many of these guys, by the time they get to the level of secretary, they're just looking at two, three years away from retirement. It's only the guys who got into the civil service very early on. They probably have the longest runway at the secretary level. But most are, you know, pretty much at the end of their career, two, three years away from retirement. So there's also that, you know, there's not much incentive to be very bold and reformative.

[00:31:59] That also kind of has an effect. Yeah. I think that is a challenge as well, that we don't have enough young people. Not necessarily, because see, ultimately a lot of the heavy lifting in government happens at the joint secretary level. And one of the biggest reforms that the Modi government has taken is to open up that layer onwards to multiple cadres. Earlier it used to be the exclusive preserve of one cadres, the Indian Administrative Service.

[00:32:26] Now what Mr. Modi has done is he's opened that pathway to multiple cadres. So now you have people from revenue service, railway services, telecom services, who have become joint secretaries, additional secretaries. Ultimately, they could, you know, end up being secretary as well. So that has kind of brought in more bandwidth, more talent. But yes, the disincentives overweigh the incentives, which is why it requires, you know, tough taskmasters.

[00:32:55] The prime minister through his pragati sessions and then ministers who are very hands-on, who are able to get more out of the bureaucracy. They really drive change and reform. Right. You know, bureaucracy is, you know, people bash it left, right and center online, right? Day in and day out. And people for maybe for legit reasons also believe like the way the org is designed, the way the incentives are structured and the way these political influences and so on work.

[00:33:24] There's just no way that, you know, you can get efficient work done. Right. And there is a huge thrust that, you know, these have to be reformed and, you know, tear down everything and rebuild everything. Kind of a thinking. Easier said than done. Because the moment we do anything of that nature, right, we have all these other factors that come in. Equity, inclusion, diversity, right?

[00:33:50] So the moment you put all these other constraints, you're back to the same original structure. So, for example, if you didn't have general financial rules, you didn't have the CAG audits, we would be looking at a scam every day. Right. Right. And you're back to square one, what you started with. So how do you get around this? It requires many factors to come together. You need to have individuals who are highly motivated, who are reform oriented.

[00:34:18] You need to have the right incentives so that, you know, the incentives outweigh the disincentives. And then you have to have leadership, political leadership, which is, you know, hands on and is able to, you know, get the maximum out of them. So I think all those factors need to come in. Even if all these come in, you still have the court system, which is a problem. Because out of the blue, a spanner will be thrown and everything is stayed and you can't do much.

[00:34:48] And that routinely happens because someone with a grievance goes to a court, gets a court order, stalls some, you know, reform measures. Right. You think that more folks from the private sector like yourself, I think you think they would act as catalysts of change in these functionaries and so on? Yes and no.

[00:35:10] So, see, if you're going to come to government from the private sector and then expect that day one you will start having your way, I don't think that's going to happen. Because the environment is not set up for it. Unlike in the American system where they have that, they have a permanent bureaucracy. It's not that they don't have a permanent bureaucracy, but they also have a broad culture where with every administration, you know, people come in and go out.

[00:35:36] And the system is flexible enough to, you know, allow that. And in the Indian system, the way it is designed, unless you're able to exercise administrative powers and financial powers, you are ineffective. And to be able to exercise administrative powers and financial powers, you need to be brought in at a certain level in a certain manner. Only then you can do that. And so that is first big prerequisite.

[00:36:05] Now, let's say, for example, CEO Prasar Bharti, the role is such that you have the ability to exercise financial powers and administrative powers almost on par with a secretary level. Right. So let's say you did get that kind of role and you were brought in in such a manner where you are able to exercise those powers. You need to have an understanding of how to do it. Because without that, it's a landmine. Yeah. You will get into trouble within one week.

[00:36:32] You would have violated some norm somewhere because you don't have a sound understanding of how these things are to be done. So it requires that level of patience to understand how these rules, I mean, what rules govern these powers, how they have to be exercised. And then you're also doing it in a hierarchy, right? Where the guys below also have to believe in that. Otherwise, what's going to happen? They're going to pass the buck to you.

[00:37:00] And then you will get into trouble because you will then own up everything. And then tomorrow they'll say if something goes wrong, he did it. Right. So it's all the more important that the reform measures that you want to push through, even though you may have the power to exercise it, have to have the broadest of buy-in at the entire multiple layers of bureaucracy or whatever, wherever you're working. So that's not easy. You have many people who are perhaps permanently within that system.

[00:37:28] They have vested interests in keeping status quo. So they have no incentive to change from status quo. So you will have to break through all of that. So it takes time. By which probably your tenure is done and you're out of the system. Right. So how do you break this will require a good amount of creativity where you will have to pick your battles. You can't win everything.

[00:37:54] So look for quick wins, low hanging fruits where you have the broadest of buy-in both from the people below and from the leadership because the leadership has to back you. Otherwise, without that political support, you can't get anything done. So you need to align the political support. You need to win the confidence of the people below. And you need to find these pathways. Right. These windows to happen because the other biggest challenge in India is that there is an election every six months.

[00:38:21] So your windows to do complex tasks where impact can be significant, they're very small windows, very few windows. Right. So you need to find those windows and get stuff done. Yeah. So you don't just need the domain expertise to do certain things. I mean, you also need an understanding of how the… In fact, the domain expertise is perhaps something that comes last. Right.

[00:38:44] Because ultimately, most of policy, like what we see at the macro level, it will end up being a common minimum program. Right. You have a country which is so diverse, so complex. So you can't do really radical stuff. Right. You can do incremental stuff. And it has to appeal to the least common denominator. Right. It has to be acceptable. And then you keep building on it. Now, however, technology is a good opportunity.

[00:39:14] Technology offers many good opportunities to do a step change where you can leapfrog from one level to the other. For example, the government e-marketplace is a great example. Overnight, you had the ability to change government procurement in a significant way. You brought a lot of transparency. Of course, there are people who are still gaming the system. But they will always be there. But now you have the ability to counter that algorithmically. Right. You can catch it. You can counter it. You can neutralize it. Right. So gem marketplace is a great example.

[00:39:43] So you'll have to look for how technology can give you those leapfrogs and step changes. In our case at Prasar Bharti, one of the big things that we did with technology was the manner in which we were engaging talent. So using technology, it brought a lot of transparency. People who were misusing the system, now the radar was on them. The spotlight was on them. So that made a difference. Right.

[00:40:08] Is that something that the average or the common armchair activist misses in their commentary? Because they think that it's kind of a straight line. It seems so obvious. It is not a straight line. It is convoluted. It's a spaghetti. Right. It's not even like a maze. It's a spaghetti. You are tied up in all kinds of knots. Right. You have to very carefully untie the knots. Yeah. Or you jump to the next mass of spaghetti. From this mass, you go to the next mass.

[00:40:39] Which technology offers these opportunities to do. Yeah. So yeah, it's a combination of these. Yeah. No, I mean, just learning about this. I mean, I just have a greater appreciation for how things get done eventually. Even in this kind of a sort of a hoary mess that, you know, administration can be. Right. Just switching gears. Why do we not have a BBC or an Al Jazeera equivalent? My biggest regret.

[00:41:06] Why do we not have an Indian lens on whatever is happening in the world? Just like you described, you know, private sector guy becoming CEO. Prasad, the first thing, we're going to create a BBC. And then five years later, where is the BBC? See, so I think there are many, many issues there, right? First is the legacy issue that I spoke about. Right. That Doodarshan and All India Radio being government departments for decades. And then overnight and law was passed.

[00:41:36] And then seven years later, they had to move under this autonomous body. So, while technically or notionally, they were made part of Prasad Bharti, the entire control of the cadres remained with the ministry. So, you had this anomalous situation where on paper you have an autonomous public broadcaster, but the entire staff, 20,000 or whatever, were government employees. So, that is a fundamental contradiction right there.

[00:42:05] So, that is why the culture never became professional and corporatized. It was still a very sirkari sort of culture. Second was this HR issues. You had, if you look at any international public broadcaster, the most important function is the creative function. The news guys, the production guys, the guys who create content, the content creators.

[00:42:28] The content creator community is the one which suffered the most on these HR legal issues. They were the ones who were retiring at the entry level. So, an entire generation of individuals, in fact, if you look at the entire media industry or the film industry, many of them trace their origins to Doodarshan and All India Radio. Almost maybe 80-85%.

[00:42:52] So, it was kind of the fountainhead or the crucible for India's creative industry. But then, that entire lot had got caught up in these court cases where they just went to the court against each other and ensured that nobody's benefited. And people retired at the entry level. So, your entire creative function got attrophied.

[00:43:22] It was only in 2019 that we managed to get some of them promoted just before the retirement. And then, a few others in subsequent years. But the bulk of them lost out because the prime of their careers were wasted in these battles. So, that is the second big reason why, you know, the culture remained. I mean, the quality, none of that really improved. It just went downhill.

[00:43:49] The third is to build an international platform. It requires significant investment in the traditional broadcasting space. You had to invest in satellites. You had to invest in ground distribution. You had to invest in, you know, marketing. So on. Right. Proper boots on the ground operation. So much. A lot of things. And we never managed to make those kinds of investments.

[00:44:18] We have a good satellite footprint, thankfully. The DD Freedish, DTH itself, KU band, has a footprint which spans the entire neighborhood. So people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, large parts of Tibet, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan. Then, of course, South, it covers quite a bit. But Maldives, I think even Maldives perhaps can get the signal.

[00:44:46] So you have a reasonable DTH free-to-air footprint. Then you have the C-band satellites which distribute content. But that is not direct to consumer. It is B2B still, right? Because C-band means someone has to receive it and then redistribute it locally. But that footprint goes all the way to Australia on the Southeast Asia side. I think it covers almost most of West Asia and Central Asia.

[00:45:13] So we have a respectable satellite footprint that way. But then there is nobody to downlink and then redistribute. But there are parts of the world where redistribution was happening. For example, when we aired Ramayana during COVID-19. I used to get messages from people in Dubai and UAE and people in Vietnam. And someone in Vietnam in a hospital was seeing Ramayana. So content was getting distributed.

[00:45:41] Then there is amount of pirated content as well. Like there are cable operators in Canada and others who are redistributing Doordarshan without any formal arrangement and so on. So that is there. But then if you look at CNN or BBC or even CGTN or RT, they have invested in placement.

[00:46:04] To make sure that the hotels, the airports, the places that matter, those channels are carried. That requires spending money, significant money. I think that is another area where we have not invested. Why not perhaps do the second best or third best thing and promote content creators instead? Because given the undue influence these folks have, right? And this could range across multiple different spheres, right? I mean, someone who is doing maybe travelogues or food reviews, etc.

[00:46:33] They have started doing some of that, right? In the last couple of years, I think they announced those creator awards. Yeah. They started a creative corner on DD and so on. Right. So I'm sure maybe that has its effect. But I don't know if that is enough. Because, you know, the world's largest democracy has to have a strong global voice. Right. And so we need a global brand. So it can't just be individuals.

[00:47:02] It has to be a strong global brand. And you have to invest it. It'll take time. But we have to start now. We are already very late. Yeah. I think all of these are hacks, jugards, right? More tactical things that we can do, right? I mean, obviously to influence narrative and so on. And we're seeing especially now how important these narratives are, right? And we've seen over the last couple of years, there is this anti-India slant coming from a certain section in the West, right? I mean, and so on.

[00:47:32] And these kind of things could be useful in countering them. That's something, in fact, we need to understand it a little more deeply. Right. Because our whole approach tends to be very reactionary and superficial. It is a fact that there are very deep influence operations being run. And an open democracy is vulnerable to those. And these could be lobbies like the defense lobbies.

[00:48:00] These could be countries like China, which have their own interests. And we saw that during Operation Sindhu as well, very clearly. So it's not just anti-India voice. I mean, that to me is the most easiest way to label our bracket. But I think it's a lot more complex than that. So to counter such influence operations, you need to have significant activity around strategic communication.

[00:48:27] You have to recognize that you are at war 24-7 as far as information war is concerned. It doesn't, there's no start to it, there's no end to it. Correct. And it happens with a lot of sophistication at different levels, institutional levels. So it requires responses which are a little more sophisticated. So for example, if you look at most of the international media platforms, many of their young reporters and journalists are of Indian origin.

[00:48:54] Maybe not first generation, maybe second, third or fourth migrant and so on. All of these guys obviously go to some school, Columbia School of Journalism or Oxford, Cambridge, God knows where. So we need to have institutional responses where either we invest in fellowships, scholarships, chair professors, have some collaborations, bring people here.

[00:49:21] So think of ways in which you invest in an entire generation of media students who tomorrow can become these top-notch reporters. So that way at least half the battle is won. Similarly, there's a lot of media studies that happen in various foreign universities. How do we get the right kind of research topics there? What about our own media schools, right?

[00:49:50] How come we don't have anyone which is of global repute? So investing in that. So all of these are also important measures apart from the reactionary part, which is, you know, someone said something anti-India, we react to it. Why do you think it hasn't happened? Because I think this is one of the major grouses that, you know, the support of the government have, right? Which is that over the last 12 years, we haven't done enough. Well, I think it's priorities, right? There are so many things to do.

[00:50:17] I mean, it goes back to the last decade when Mr. Modi inherited the government in 2014. I'm sure just swarmed with so many challenges, be it infrastructure, be it economic reforms, be it the social sector, right? So it takes, you know, that much of political capital to make changes.

[00:50:43] And some of these other issues which are more pressing, where the impact is of a different scale altogether, perhaps have taken more priority over something like this. Right. Okay, one last question. I think Sindhu was a reminder that, you know, you can't. Yeah, we can't rest easy. Yeah, yeah. We can't ignore this. One more question on media and journalism. After that, I mean, I want to move on to tech and AI. What do you see as the future of journalism? I mean, you know, we were discussing before we started recording that it used to be highly centralized.

[00:51:12] Then it became massively democratized. And today, again, you know, we're in search of these saner voices or saner platforms or pipelines and so on, where we can get more reliable, more trustworthy news as well, right? So there's some kind of, let's say, centralization happening, coalescing around that. What do you see as the future of media? Good question. I think the importance of media will always remain.

[00:51:41] I don't think that is going away, right? You may have a large number of user-generated content, individual content creators and so on. But you still need the institutionalized media. Now, what are the models to sustain them? I think that debate is still out. Just look at the US itself, right? You have New York Times, which has figured out a digital business model, which is thriving.

[00:52:08] You had Washington Post, which, you know, downsized drastically. Right. So I don't think there's a clear model there. Everyone is still figuring it out. Look at BBC itself. They hived off their content business and their international into a separate commercial entity, apart from, you know, which was distinct from the public broadcasting, which was for UK. But even that has, you know, had so many issues.

[00:52:34] And they've had, I think, even now there's an ongoing debate on their license fee and so on. So, so worldwide, I don't think there's a clear answer on what is the future model for journalism. I think Italy Wolf will have to wait and see which models work ultimately and which ones will be resilient. Right. I think the ones where there is a strong institutional philanthropic support. Patronage. Patronage.

[00:53:04] I think will be the ones that will ultimately thrive, is my suspicion. Yeah. But having said that, I think to your earlier question of centralized versus decentralized to, again, you know, trying to look for saner voices and so on. But I think part of it is also the citizen awareness.

[00:53:26] Today, for example, we have an entire generation, like we discussed some time back, who don't watch TV, who don't read newspapers, who, you know, gets content. Their sources of information are very different and so on. But I think that generation, maybe it's too late because they're already of, you know, have come of age.

[00:53:47] But people, the kids who are now in school, maybe there's an opportunity there to have the right kind of interventions at the schooling level where they build certain awareness around news and information, why it is important, how to tell an authentic source from a non-authentic source. Create a certain degree of awareness. Like we had that when we were kids.

[00:54:09] I remember I used to read the newspaper in the morning, take clippings, go to the school and in the school assembly, we would, you know, present or discuss. So it created a certain kind of sense of awareness of what is happening. The importance of authentic sources of information. Of course, in those days, whatever was in print, you had to take it as authentic. Nevertheless, I think some intervention is required.

[00:54:35] So that at the early age, formative years, we are able to build this sense of why information is important. And how do you seek authentic sources of information and what do you do with it? I think if that can be inculcated early on, then as technology evolves, as they, you know, come of age, it doesn't matter. They still, those values are, you know, deeply ingrained. Right. Yeah.

[00:55:01] No, I think it'll, it'll just become a basic survival skill set, I think. Correct. Right. Just your ability to discern information. Yeah, and it's going to be very important, right? Because today on WhatsApp or on Instagram or wherever. Yeah. You're flooded with information. Most of the time it is fake. And sometimes it is deep fake. AI generated. You can't even tell the difference. Yeah. So unless you have this sense of discrimination, which has been inculcated in you at a very early formative stage, it'd be very difficult for you to. Yeah.

[00:55:29] And given that, you know, now hyper-personalization is possible, right? I mean, it's no longer at the city or the state level. It can be at an individual level. So yeah. Shashi ji, I think not many people know about your current avatar, right? Right. You're involved with AI for India and Bharat Jan. Would you want to like shed a little bit of light on that? Yeah, sure. And perhaps have a few questions on that?

[00:55:54] You know, because interestingly, even before I became CEO Prasar Bharati, I'd written a paper on AI. Right. This was in 2016. Carnegie India had just set up and they wanted to, you know, put out a paper on what should India be doing on AI. And I had written that. So clearly AI was something that was picking up. There were two, three reasons why AI suddenly became an important subject back then.

[00:56:23] The crucial point was when Google created this algorithm, AlphaGo. Google DeepMind. And AlphaGo defeated the world's top Go player. I think his name was C-Doll. And then that is when everyone started taking, you know, deep learning very seriously that now the computers have acquired that degree of capability. One of the reasons, of course, was the chips became more powerful. Moore's law.

[00:56:53] Chips became denser and denser and you're packing more and more transistors into them. They are more powerful. They're able to do more things. Cloud platforms evolved. So the computing power can be somewhere. You can be somewhere else and you're able to access, you know, highly powerful computing over the cloud. And then, of course, the ubiquitous nature of the internet.

[00:57:17] So all of these came together to make AI real, serious technology around that period. And there were multiple committees which are looking at what India should be doing in AI. Nothing concrete had emerged at that point in time. I remember in 2019-20 at the Prasar Bharti board, we started looking at what can we potentially do with AI.

[00:57:44] And so when this digitization of archives happened, one of the things was we asked IIT Kanpur that if we gave you the entire video of Doordarshan and audio of All India Radio, what can you do with it? So there's some work that has happened there in terms of model development, but that took several years. So some of this thinking was already there that, you know, AI is coming and we need to do something about it.

[00:58:12] One of the challenges that we had, because there's a requirement as a public broadcaster that the content that we put out should also have sign language. And then you obviously can't have a human sign language interpreter for everything, right? So can we use AI there? And finally, now during the AI summit, the PM speech, you had AI doing sign language interpretation. So it took that many years, but I think these things have happened. Right.

[00:58:39] So my term ended in 2022. And around that period, there was a lot of, I mean, chat GPT had not just yet happened, but there was a lot of debate from various quarters, startups especially, of the challenges that they were facing in building AI in India. Primarily twofold.

[00:59:02] One, access to compute, because it was very difficult in India to get access to the latest GPUs or high power computing. It was very expensive and very few options. Second is datasets. There weren't enough datasets from an Indian context standpoint. So that kind of was the genesis for creating AI for India, where we thought we'll bring everyone together on a common platform. Because each startup can't figure this out by themselves. They're too small.

[00:59:30] But if we can bring them together and bring larger corporates, researchers, academia, some policymakers, maybe, you know, it'll create a reasonable voice for those concerns and those challenges. So that was the genesis which led to the creation of AI for India. Then, of course, over the years, multiple things happened. And India AI mission was created.

[00:59:52] And then they rolled out this entire model for subsidized public compute, which they made available to researchers, startups. Then they shortlisted these foundation model builders, Bharatan being one of them, Sarvam being another. So now it has, you know, completely taken a different trajectory. Right. Can you make the bull case for AI for India and maybe outline a few bear case scenarios also?

[01:00:22] Well, I think the lowest hanging fruit for us was languages. In fact, Prime Minister's Monkey Bath, which is produced in nearly 45 languages and dialects, is a great training corpus for building these models. And some of the initial work at IIT Kanpur, IIIT Hyderabad was based on Monkey Bath.

[01:00:45] So to me, to be able to build models, which can allow conversations or content in any Indian language to any Indian language. And to be able to do that on mobile phones, where even the most bare minimum, just like what we did with UPI, what we did with mobile data for video consumption.

[01:01:11] If we can crack that for AI, I think that will be a game changer where language is no longer a barrier. If we can remove language, because you look at the amount of political energy that is expended on language related issues. Right. Because it is very easy for anybody to take offense and, you know, create a narrative around language. But if that is rendered irrelevant, just think of what impact it will have on our political discourse.

[01:01:38] So rather than language being seen as a hindrance, as a negative, you know, factor, as a barrier, we just, you know, using AI, we just tap. I mean, there's this latent potential around languages which can open up commerce in perhaps every corner of India to every corner of India. I think that will be a game changer. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So to me, that is the minimum at least that we should aspire for.

[01:02:09] As far as what else, I would say our, if you look at historically, our approach to adopting technology, it has always been in leapfrogs. Right. We went directly to mobile data and cell phones and mobile data while skipping, you know, the entire broadband and terrestrial networks rollout. Similarly, we went from cash to QR code based payments, bypassing the entire credit card phenomenon.

[01:02:39] Same thing happened in television as well. We jumped to DTH and cable. So I would say even with AI, while, you know, a lot of the focus worldwide is on these big models and huge compute and billions of hundreds of billions of dollars in compute capacity, which is creating all kinds of issues around data centers, energy availability. Now the bottleneck is where will the energy come from? Where will the electrical engineers come from? Where will the transformers come? Right.

[01:03:08] If we can leapfrog there and take AI and intelligence to the edge, to cell phones, to smart devices, maybe we leapfrog in AI as well. Maybe that's, so that's our best case. Right. I have this, you know, working theory that we lag and leap. Right. So we didn't build the IBMs of the world, but we of course built the Infosys and the TCSs and so on, so forth. Right.

[01:03:36] And similarly, right, on multiple fronts, I mean, we tend to come in a little late, right, when fundamental innovation is at a certain commoditized level and just make the most of it. Right. I mean, do you think something similar is going to happen on the AI front as well, given that, you know, over the last couple of years even or even one year, the fact that LLMs are, you know, actively becoming commoditized and so on.

[01:04:01] Right now, whether it is going to take 200 million or 300 million to build something, I mean, we can argue about it, you know, it's irrelevant. Right. Right. But the fact is, it's directionally very sorted that, you know, it is going to become that. Right. So you think, I mean, something similar is going to happen with AI as well for India? Potentially it can. Whether it will happen, I don't know.

[01:04:21] But see, because we always have this paradox, right, where you have a top end of the society, which is very savvy technologically and is our biggest consumers of anything new. Right. Which is why you are looking at open AI, Anthropic, everyone is looking at India as their growth market. Right. Because you have these 100, 200 million people who can adopt these technologies, right? Almost the size of a large country. Yeah, country by itself. By itself. So then everyone else is trying to catch up.

[01:04:52] Regulatory environment is trying to catch up. The infrastructure is trying to catch up and so on. So, yes, so the potential exists for something like that to happen. And what is going to be important is that UPI movement. What is that equivalent UPI movement here where the network effects, the scale effects all kick in and you are seeing diffusion at population scale.

[01:05:19] So that's what we'll have to, something will make that happen. We just have to see what that is, which will make it happen. Maybe education. To me, maybe education is, or healthcare, one of these two. It's probably where such a moment will occur. How important do you think sovereignty is with fundamental technologies and innovations like this, right? Because people often say that, hey, look, you know what, what happens if, let's say Azure or AWS just turns it off, right? Tomorrow. Right.

[01:05:46] Or let's say OpenAI or Anthropic, I mean, just decides to do one thing or the other, you know, on mass, right? I mean, so people do get ideological about this saying that, you know, we should build every layer of the stack and so on. But of course, practically not possible given the constraints on resources and so on and so forth. So what is the, I mean, I know it's a very difficult question, but what is the midway position that we can sort of take? Yeah.

[01:06:14] No, I think sovereignty is important at multiple levels, like you pointed out. The strategic need for sovereignty is very clear, right? You look at each of these conflicts that have happened in the last few years. You need control on the supply chains. You need to have built enough in-house indigenous technology or reserves to be able to, you know, effectively defend yourself. So in that sense, from a strategic standpoint, there is no alternative to it.

[01:06:44] Of course, that may not necessarily translate into a mass consumer adoption scenario. But then if you look at historically, many of these technologies that we use today started off as a defense project somewhere. Yeah. So to answer your question, it may not be commercially feasible in the short term. But in the long term, as you build more and more sovereign technologies from a strategic standpoint, there will be dual use scenarios.

[01:07:12] There will be some mass application that will emerge, which will, you know, make it viable for, you know, broader society to adopt the same technology. Right. So I don't think we should go with the mindset that we don't have to build foundational technologies. I think we absolutely have to build foundational technologies for two reasons. One is, of course, the strategic reason. The second is the size of the market, right?

[01:07:37] India is a market where you have the top end and the bottom end, which represents practically every part of the world. Right. In terms of its, you know, economic characteristics. So if you build technology here and you can scale it here, you can very easily apply it to different parts of the world in different contexts. So it's a great testing ground to build technology. Right. Yeah. In that sense, I mean, maybe pick a finite use case even because given the scale of India, right? I mean, we have 1.4 billion people.

[01:08:07] I mean, even if you pick a very, very finite scale, finite market, I mean, it could be lucrative in itself. Right. And the thinking also is that not everyone has to be on this super sovereign, super specialized tech as well. Right. For example, I mean, I can use Gmail, but I don't expect, let's say Ajit Dawalji to use Gmail. Right. I mean, so he could have his specialized application or tech or infrastructure and so on. No, I think the challenge will be in terms of where network effects matter. Right.

[01:08:37] Where the user experience matter. So we have to find ways to, you know, crack that. One place where we have greatly cracked it is UPI. Now we have to find similar, not that UPI as an example can be applied to every situation in every context. But maybe there are certain lessons that can be abstracted out of it, which perhaps can help us in finding those pathways in other contexts, in other domains. What do you think are the biggest blockers for us?

[01:09:07] You think, I mean, it's because I don't think. It's only, I think, two issues. Patient capital and a culture that values innovation and fundamental research. But on capital, right? I mean, again, you know, we spoke about LLMs being commoditized and so on. Right. And at an India scale, let's say at an India budget scale, we can spend a couple of billion dollars. Right. I mean, it's not going to like massively burn a hole in our pockets, so to speak. No, no. It's not so much about the money. Right. It's about the patience.

[01:09:37] Right. Why is it that we are always looking for unicorns? Why is it that everyone is chasing the valuations? Right. Because the whole focus is very short term. Nobody wants to, you know, take that long term risk. And even if you look at the genesis of many things in Silicon Valley, that kind of patient risk taking happened only because the government was backing it up for these defense projects. So you think some kind of sovereign funds?

[01:10:05] Which is what the whole RDI and so now that's happening. So that is getting addressed. The patient part is getting addressed. Second part is more deeper. It's cultural. Why is private sector in India not doing R&D? Why haven't the big tech guys who today are signing up deals with Anthropic, why didn't they think about AI five years back? They did actually. Vishal Sikha actually did that. He thought, you know, there was merit in putting money in open AI. But for whatever reason, they never crystallized into anything meaningful.

[01:10:35] Right. So there's a problem, deeper problem that corporate India has not stepped up while the government has. You think there should be enough churn in these industries and so on? Maybe that will cause people to think. Competitiveness. Absolutely. I think that is one big thing which is missing today. That there is not, the landscape is not competitive enough.

[01:11:02] There are too many barriers for upstarts to challenge incumbents. Now, interestingly, when we created Freedash at Prasar Bharati, I mean, not by design, but by default, it became a level playing field.

[01:11:18] So there was a period where a channel called Dhangal, complete upstart, was dominating the television ratings for Hindi general entertainment just because of Freedash. So while you created a public platform with a certain public good in mind, it also had this other side effect that it became an enabler of competition.

[01:11:44] It created a level playing field where startups could challenge incumbents, big corporates. I think we need that in other sectors. Right. You know, anytime we ask the private sector to spend more on R&D, they point their finger back to the government and say, you know, the government is not doing enough. Right. It's not building enough institutions. It's not spending enough capital and so on and so forth. Right. Now, that argument can no longer be made credibly. Right. With the RDI fund, that issue has been addressed.

[01:12:13] The government has created a structure for long term patient capital where it's at 50 percent. We will walk, you know, we'll meet you halfway. Now, it's for the corporate side to step up and say yes. Right. You know, oftentimes we talk about this demographic dividend as such, but AI seems to put that at risk. Right. I mean, let's say they say, you know, this whole career is being upended right now. Right.

[01:12:43] With job losses, firings, layoffs and so on and so forth. There is no set path to achieving financial, you know, let's say making money like how it was over the last 20, 30, 40 years. I mean, that that path is completely disrupted and so on. And so this could result in like a complete reset and chaos. Right. And at India scale, that could be catastrophic is one thought. What do you think about it? No, it's a very serious issue.

[01:13:12] In fact, I think it's going to be one of the dominant issues in the next few years. We're already seeing early signs of it. Right. When gig workers went on strike or these UGC protests, they are the symptom. But the underlying condition is this uncertainty that is what is causing all these anxieties.

[01:13:33] So we have to have both horizontal mobility and vertical mobility pathways where it is not very well structured, very well defined. Unlike in the past, right, where you joined a public sector and then for the next 30 years you were taken care of. That doesn't exist anymore. Even with an infosys, you could think of it 20 years back now. You can no longer think of it.

[01:13:55] So there has to be, you know, policy plus platform intervention, which is opening up multiple pathways, both for horizontal mobility and vertical mobility. I think it's extremely important. And now is the time to do it because of AI, you will have this gulf that is only going to get deeper and wider. Right. Do you, I mean, given the scenario we are in right now, right?

[01:14:23] I mean, with as much chaos across the world and so on. What are you most optimistic about from an Indian perspective? What am I most optimistic about? I think we have weathered a very serious crisis admirably. I think there's a lot of capacity and resilience within the society, right? COVID-19. I mean, the world went crazy on vaccines. We had a very reasonably decent vaccine rollout.

[01:14:54] There was so much of vaccine hesitancy in many parts of the world. We were able to. China, which still was having meaningless rules like zero COVID and so on, while India opened up much earlier. So we demonstrated that we have a capacity for absorbing crises and showing resilience. Same thing happened during Sindhu as well. I mean, think about it, right?

[01:15:21] Two nuclear powers coming to such conflict for seven days. But still the country was able to absorb that and continue on its trajectory. Now, again, we have another crisis. It will be a test, but I'm pretty sure that we will come out of it. So to me, that gives a lot of confidence. But we can't be complacent about it. Right.

[01:15:47] Because you have a large demographic that we talked about, the demographic dividend, who will be tested with what is happening with AI and economics and careers and jobs and so on. So we have to provide them pathways so that this resilience that is inherent within the society is now sustained for the next few decades. Right. For a young person who is listening to this, what is the best way they can contribute?

[01:16:18] The best way you can contribute, I think, more optimism in the country. Show more faith. Learning is important. Learning cannot stop. I think a large part of the population is, you know, you have access to mobile phones. You have high exposure to these social media platforms. And this can go two ways.

[01:16:44] You can either get addicted to content, which is meaningless, or you can draw a lot of value out of that content, which will help you in finding these pathways, both for your mobility horizontally or vertically. So I think the challenge for the youth is that how do you get the most value out of technology so that you are, you know, economically self-sustaining

[01:17:11] and then you have become part of the overall growth journey of the country. Many, I found something very interesting recently where many of us, you know, if we are, you go to a college or university, you get a degree, that pretty much becomes your skill set. And then of course, whatever you pick up on a job. But I think it is important that we also, during our formative years, pick up another skill set, which you are good at.

[01:17:40] I mean, like video editing or photography or maybe being very productive with your hands, with tools, engineering, whatever be the skills, right? Crafts. I think it's important to have more than one skill, right? So that you can be self-sustaining on your own when there is periods of economic uncertainty. You're productive, you're contributing. And it's also a passion because if you picked up that skill set, maybe it's also a hobby for you. Right.

[01:18:10] Yeah. Yeah. One last question, you know, I can't let you go before I ask you this. I think the key difference also has been over the last, let's say, 10, 12 years, the quality of leadership, right? The prime minister has been exemplary. He has taken us through these really difficult, challenging times. Things that, you know, should have taken decades to happen have happened in the span of like five, six years. And we're seeing these complexities multiply, right?

[01:18:38] And one thing I am very optimistic about is that we have a person at the helm with the right intent and the capability as well, right? What has been your experience of, you know, seeing Prime Minister Modi over the years? And yeah, something you could share. Well, I think he's, what stands out with him is he's a great listener. You can be in a meeting for two, three hours and he may not even say a word. He's just absorbing and listening.

[01:19:07] The second big thing is his ability to connect the dots across very different domains. I think these two traits make him very effective, where he's absorbing information, learning, and he's able to connect, make these connections. Second is, of course, his leadership by example, where he set a bar so high that every future leader will be judged against that bar. I think these are things that stand out. And then, of course, his use of technology.

[01:19:36] He's not someone who's shy of experimenting with technology or anything latest. He's one of the first pioneers to use, right? Be it YouTube streaming or using AI for speeches and so on. So, I think all these stand out. What would matter going forward is how do you continue to inspire the youth, right? Because the challenges are now even more than what they were in 2014.

[01:20:06] So, keeping the youth engaged, keeping them inspired. Because we have this goal of a developed India by 2047. How do we achieve that? And then there are many milestones along the way, right? We're going to have India will send its own manned space mission soon. We'll probably build a space station. We'll host the Olympics. So, you have many such milestones to look forward to which can motivate and rally the youth towards for the next two decades. Right.

[01:20:36] Yeah. I think it's a good thing and a bad thing that there are whole sections of society right now that expects this as a baseline. Right. I mean, this level of leadership and administration or execution, they expect it at a baseline. And for those of us who've been through, let's say, I mean, the years before that, I mean, we kind of appreciate it almost intuitively. Right. Now the expectations are that much higher. That much higher. Yeah. This is a good thing, I think. It's a good thing and it's also a challenge.

[01:21:05] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on Bharatwarta, Shishiji. This was a long-due conversation, as I mentioned. And yeah, thank you for sharing your insights and experience. Thank you. And it was a pleasure talking and all the best to your platform. I hope you continue to grow and become one of those global influential voices. Thank you so much. Thank you.