EP 252: “The entire World is at War” | Espionage, National Security, & Geopolitics with Vikram Sood - Former Head, R&AW | Bharatvaarta

[00:00:00] Freedom also means that you must be able to exercise the right of not reporting something when you shouldn't be reporting

[00:00:07] We haven't accepted the fact that Pakistan was made in the name of Islam

[00:00:15] What are our threats that we perceive?

[00:00:21] My goals are different, my threats are different, my means are much less

[00:00:27] So am I using those means, West, in the best way or not? That is the question then

[00:00:32] There have been more wars fought in the 20th century, second half, until now

[00:00:41] So that time you had two world wars, now you have the entire world at war

[00:00:44] I've always said in every case that these sanctions that the Americans impose never give you the benefit

[00:00:52] Because it's only hurting the common man in that country

[00:00:54] It's the common man that gets hurt and he remembers that

[00:00:58] Do you think that the US is a declining superpower?

[00:01:02] What do you see happen in the next 5-10 years?

[00:01:06] They are now stuck with Ukraine

[00:01:10] I don't see Ukraine winning

[00:01:13] What do you think the end game is with the war there?

[00:01:16] Sell more weapons, remain wealthy

[00:01:18] Why doesn't Europe grow a spine?

[00:01:21] You know, they destroy the Nord Stream pipeline and they don't do anything about it

[00:01:24] Whose interest is it to let Europe crumble?

[00:01:29] America

[00:01:30] Why was Hamas allowed to attack like this?

[00:01:33] You frame it as allowed to attack

[00:01:35] So, it's a very interesting framing

[00:01:39] How does the common person distinguish between authentic journalism and a media narrative?

[00:01:47] You can't

[00:01:52] You can't

[00:01:53] Welcome to the podcast, sir

[00:01:54] Thank you so much for being so gracious with your time

[00:01:57] Like I mentioned, 4 years back when we started the podcast

[00:01:59] If I were to draw up a list of, let's say the top 10 people we wanted on the podcast

[00:02:04] You were of course one of those guests

[00:02:07] So, thank you and sorry for disrupting your Sunday

[00:02:10] Not at all, it's a pleasure to be with you

[00:02:13] And I'm so happy to hear that I was listed out so long ago

[00:02:19] And I look forward to a great discussion with you and both of you

[00:02:24] And so we'll carry on with this from Sagarika and you

[00:02:29] So, first off I'm very curious how you spend your time

[00:02:32] I mean, in a previous life, you know, life would have been on the edge

[00:02:38] Tons of responsibilities and like plenty of exciting things

[00:02:41] Of course not all of which you can talk about, you know, publicly

[00:02:45] But do you miss that life?

[00:02:47] You know, when I retired

[00:02:50] That was 21 years ago

[00:02:53] I did feel, you know,

[00:02:55] Karneko Kushni, I have nothing to do, I'm sitting at home

[00:02:59] And I just didn't know what to do with myself

[00:03:06] But I didn't have that feeling that I've lost power as it were

[00:03:12] Or that was okay that, you know, it's over

[00:03:14] I thought I'm on a holiday now, I just relax

[00:03:19] But as it happened

[00:03:22] After a few

[00:03:24] Towards the end of 2003 when I had retired

[00:03:27] And I started getting feelings

[00:03:28] Okay, come on, why don't you write for us?

[00:03:32] So in 2004 I started writing

[00:03:34] One year I spent having a nice holiday

[00:03:36] Went to see my daughter

[00:03:37] Went off to see my sister in the United States

[00:03:41] Then all that

[00:03:43] Then moved into being a columnist in the newspapers

[00:03:49] And I used to do a fortnightly column for 4-5 years

[00:03:54] Then the management changed and things changed

[00:03:58] The management of the newspapers, I suppose, it changed

[00:04:01] And so I gave up after that

[00:04:06] Then I had joined the Observer Research Foundation

[00:04:11] And I've been with them since

[00:04:14] It's 19 years

[00:04:17] So I do a little bit of work with them

[00:04:19] Now at the age that I am, they don't expect

[00:04:21] They don't overload me with anything much

[00:04:23] They do most of it themselves

[00:04:26] So I'm grateful that I'm with them also

[00:04:29] And I'm on my own also

[00:04:31] And it's nice to be in a new place in Bangalore

[00:04:37] Coming away from Gurdugam slash Delhi

[00:04:41] Where I spent most of my life

[00:04:44] I was born in Delhi

[00:04:47] And my first job was in Delhi

[00:04:50] Then till I moved to the RAW

[00:04:52] That's when I started moving

[00:04:55] So do you watch a lot of movies and TV series and so on?

[00:04:58] Not really, I don't really enjoy these

[00:05:01] Some of them I like to watch

[00:05:03] And I've watched Fodha up to 3 or 4 and then

[00:05:08] Fodha was awesome

[00:05:09] Then I want to give it a little break

[00:05:12] It's not, it's too intense

[00:05:15] Right. Did you watch IC814?

[00:05:18] I did. I did watch that

[00:05:24] And any next question on my...

[00:05:27] No, I mean, so I watched it yesterday and

[00:05:31] It brought back a lot of anger actually

[00:05:34] Thinking back to the kind of things that have happened to us

[00:05:37] I mean, I was perhaps in the 8th standard at that time

[00:05:41] And I was watching this unfold in the news

[00:05:45] And there was just so much of anger that how could something like this happen

[00:05:50] And you know, on the series as well

[00:05:52] We see that you know, there's raw inputs, there's IB inputs and everything

[00:05:57] But somehow that doesn't, that intelligence doesn't materialize to

[00:06:01] Something more tangible, right?

[00:06:03] In terms of stopping something like that

[00:06:04] And I'm sure that you know, you might have seen this many different times

[00:06:09] But was that like a particularly frustrating thing?

[00:06:12] It was frustrating in the sense that

[00:06:17] You know, you make a series, you make a series with a purpose

[00:06:22] You want to exhibit the truth as it were, which is fine

[00:06:26] That's how it should be

[00:06:28] But if you're going to twist it

[00:06:30] If you're going to give it an agenda

[00:06:33] Then I object to that

[00:06:36] Because

[00:06:37] You know, we don't make agendas by saying I'm making an agenda

[00:06:41] You do it by

[00:06:42] Subtle

[00:06:42] Subtle

[00:06:43] Subtle

[00:06:43] You make it by hints, by picturization

[00:06:46] Won't you picturize the three Indian officers

[00:06:50] All unhealthy and tired

[00:06:52] All bumbling

[00:06:52] What does this tell you?

[00:06:54] And then you see that smart ISI guy roaming around

[00:06:58] Yeah

[00:06:58] How does that happen?

[00:07:00] Yeah

[00:07:01] How is that Taliban fellow

[00:07:03] They were so obnoxious

[00:07:05] When these chaps were there

[00:07:07] And he's shown as a perfectly reasonable

[00:07:10] Suave as well

[00:07:11] Suave accommodating man

[00:07:13] Yeah

[00:07:14] He wasn't

[00:07:15] So why are you doing this?

[00:07:17] Yeah

[00:07:18] And what was the idea of showing that, torturing that I, R.A.W. chap, torturing in Nepali to death in the end? What was that?

[00:07:28] Right

[00:07:29] I think all of these artistic flourishes, so to speak, all of them sort of betray the mind of a maker, right? I mean it shows the kind of bent that they have

[00:07:39] You show the R.A.W. chief sitting in a, in a little cubby hole, all glass windows and everything

[00:07:47] Guys who've lived in that room know it wasn't like that

[00:07:51] At least it's not basic to check, Karuna

[00:07:55] Right

[00:07:56] How does it look walking into the R.A.W. headquarters?

[00:08:01] It is not a bazaar

[00:08:03] Anybody can walk in, walk in

[00:08:04] And

[00:08:06] In the intelligence organizations, we don't click heels, we don't salute

[00:08:13] And they show this chap clicking his heels and walking out

[00:08:16] These are small things, but they are, they are disparaging

[00:08:21] Right?

[00:08:22] So I think that the, whatever the intention was, that's how it came out to me

[00:08:29] As a show that left a lot to be desired

[00:08:32] Yeah

[00:08:33] No, I can quite imagine, I mean if I was so annoyed with the few things that I could recognize

[00:08:39] I mean you would recognize things at a whole other level for sure, right?

[00:08:42] Sure they were mistakes, yeah

[00:08:44] They were shortcomings, yeah

[00:08:46] Otherwise the hijacking would not have occurred

[00:08:49] If they had the information on time, if they had been able to prevent the aircraft from taking off from Amrit sir

[00:08:56] Things might have been different

[00:08:57] But I can tell you one thing

[00:09:02] If the aircraft had been stopped from taking off

[00:09:07] And if the terrorists had killed six or seven more people

[00:09:12] They'd killed one by then

[00:09:14] All hell would have broken loose in India

[00:09:19] Because

[00:09:19] Because

[00:09:20] You could see on the streets of Delhi, outside race course road, the prime minister's house

[00:09:25] Dharnaz and Siapa and all that, sort of demonstrations going on

[00:09:29] You are forcing the hand of the government

[00:09:33] And you are forcing the hand of the government through the media

[00:09:36] The media is the place where it should have stopped

[00:09:40] I think

[00:09:42] Freedom also means that you must be able to exercise the right of not reporting something when you shouldn't be reporting

[00:09:50] Right

[00:09:51] You know, because this is going to anger people

[00:09:54] This is going to force the government to making it to a hasty decision which they had to do

[00:10:01] Right

[00:10:02] So we should have had the imagination, shall I say, for lack of a better word

[00:10:10] I won't say patriotism, that's enough

[00:10:12] That will take me into a different league

[00:10:14] Imagination that this is not right, buddy

[00:10:17] I shouldn't be telling the people this

[00:10:20] Right

[00:10:20] So are you, everywhere, all over the countryside you could see this demonstration?

[00:10:26] So what does the government do then?

[00:10:30] When you think back to those times, right, I mean the late 90s, the 2000s

[00:10:34] I mean, the number of terror attacks that used to happen, it was fairly frequent, right?

[00:10:40] I mean, couple of years

[00:10:40] Almost every day

[00:10:41] Yeah, exactly

[00:10:42] 90s were horrible years

[00:10:43] Absolutely horrible

[00:10:45] So, couple of years after the hijacking

[00:10:48] Even the 80s were bad when they had the Sikh militancy

[00:10:51] Yeah

[00:10:52] And then it went on to Kashmir

[00:10:54] Right

[00:10:55] The other one started

[00:10:58] So we had, we had a terrible time

[00:11:02] Right

[00:11:04] Intagencies, paramilitaries, troops

[00:11:07] And what did we get in return from our friends?

[00:11:13] Allegations of human rights violations

[00:11:15] Yeah

[00:11:16] Tell us about Abu Ghraib now, you know

[00:11:18] Yeah

[00:11:18] What happened, they were Guantanamo

[00:11:21] Yeah

[00:11:23] But, for us it was human rights abuse

[00:11:25] Just a couple of years after the hijacking, we had the parliament attacks

[00:11:29] Then we had Akshar Dham as well

[00:11:32] Then the Mumbai train bombings, if you remember

[00:11:34] First the 2006 bombing

[00:11:36] Yeah

[00:11:37] The, the serial bombing on the train

[00:11:40] Correct

[00:11:40] And then we had 2008

[00:11:43] Yeah

[00:11:43] And then we had parliament

[00:11:46] Right

[00:11:46] Parliament was before

[00:11:47] Parliament was 2001 I think

[00:11:49] 2001, sorry

[00:11:51] Yeah

[00:11:51] Then you had, after a gap you had bombing for which we did Balakot

[00:11:57] Oh, Pulwama

[00:11:58] Right

[00:11:59] But that was much later

[00:12:00] Before that we had Uri actually

[00:12:02] Right

[00:12:04] Uri and Pulwama was the two things that happened

[00:12:07] But, you're dealing with terrorists

[00:12:10] You're not dealing with gentlemen

[00:12:13] You're dealing with Islamic terrorists

[00:12:16] Who have a kind of a license as it were

[00:12:21] To do what they do

[00:12:23] Because that is the route to Jannath

[00:12:26] Is that an important thing to recognize?

[00:12:28] Because I feel that somehow

[00:12:31] Even, so yesterday

[00:12:33] I mean I was just like looking back at the sequence of events

[00:12:36] And Aman Ki Aasha was launched in 2010

[00:12:40] Right, and if you remember it had everyone

[00:12:42] It had Amitabh Bachchan and so on and so forth

[00:12:44] Lot of these advertisements and song and dance and everything

[00:12:49] And yeah, that just made me a little more frustrated

[00:12:51] Because given everything that's happened in the 10 years before that

[00:12:56] How could we even think about this

[00:12:57] Right?

[00:12:57] And I think it goes back to the root of the thing that we don't recognize the real issue here

[00:13:03] We haven't accepted the fact that Pakistan was made in the name of Islam

[00:13:10] Right

[00:13:11] And it is now living in the name of Islam

[00:13:15] The parliament is Islamic

[00:13:17] The army is Islamic

[00:13:19] Terrorists of course are Islamic

[00:13:21] Look at the way they treat their own sub-sects

[00:13:25] Look at the way they treat Hindus

[00:13:29] Look at the way they treat the Baloch

[00:13:32] So they are on a different track

[00:13:37] From us

[00:13:39] Right

[00:13:40] And I think that all we have to do is to learn to live with Pakistan

[00:13:47] Learn to deal with Pakistan

[00:13:50] Friendship is not something that I think will ever happen

[00:13:53] Not in this way

[00:13:54] Right

[00:13:56] Often times that binary is portrayed

[00:13:58] I mean saying that the Americans have done all of this

[00:14:01] They have leveled our cities and what not

[00:14:04] And so I am doing this hijacking almost like in the same way

[00:14:11] But from then to now, how do you think the security apparatus has evolved?

[00:14:15] Because at that time as you mentioned, it was harrowing times

[00:14:18] Literally every few months, you know, few times a year something like this would happen

[00:14:22] And it would happen in cities like Bangalore, Pune

[00:14:25] I remember the German Bakery Blast for example

[00:14:27] Right, so on and so forth

[00:14:29] From then until now, you know, what has been the change in terms of the security apparatus?

[00:14:36] Well, I...

[00:14:37] You know, it's difficult for me to comment on what the changes that might have been made

[00:14:43] But the most important thing is, what is the attitude of the government on today?

[00:14:48] Towards the... towards terrorism

[00:14:51] And what does the government think is the answer

[00:14:56] To dealing with this?

[00:14:58] What is the remedy or the recipe for... for curing this?

[00:15:04] Is it so top-down because some...

[00:15:07] No, it's not top-down in the sense that

[00:15:10] You know, if... if I believe that I should carry out

[00:15:15] kinetic operations in the country or...

[00:15:19] It's an eye for an eye

[00:15:21] But the government doesn't believe

[00:15:23] Then who am I to carry out this?

[00:15:26] There... there just aren't enough incentives

[00:15:29] No...

[00:15:30] We are... we are a democracy

[00:15:32] We are not the ISI

[00:15:33] We don't take decisions ourselves

[00:15:35] We don't say that we'll go and climb Kargil

[00:15:38] And tell the Prime Minister later we've done it

[00:15:41] Yeah...

[00:15:42] We work in a system

[00:15:43] If the Prime Minister says

[00:15:44] I will go to Islamabad

[00:15:48] Whatever you might tell him

[00:15:50] It doesn't matter

[00:15:52] He's gonna go

[00:15:55] Right...

[00:15:56] So... that is how it works

[00:16:10] Right...

[00:16:11] We may have overlapping missions and interests and so on

[00:16:13] It happens... that's... that's a human failure actually

[00:16:16] You can't blame any particular country or agency where you have...

[00:16:21] We have...

[00:16:22] Americans have 17 agencies, right?

[00:16:25] They have 750 to 800 bases, right?

[00:16:29] They've divided the world into commands

[00:16:34] How many wars have they won?

[00:16:37] Name one

[00:16:38] They might have conquered Costa Rica which doesn't have an army

[00:16:42] Or...

[00:16:44] Or...

[00:16:44] Sort of...

[00:16:44] Haiti which has probably a squadron

[00:16:46] But which is the...

[00:16:49] War that they've won and come away

[00:16:52] With... in good grace

[00:16:53] Can you talk of Vietnam?

[00:16:56] Korea was a draw

[00:16:58] Iraq...

[00:17:00] Now Ukraine

[00:17:03] So...

[00:17:03] If they can make all these mistakes

[00:17:06] With all the paraphernalia

[00:17:08] They download everything that is there up in the atmosphere...

[00:17:12] Hemisphere or whatever you call it...

[00:17:14] Stratosphere...

[00:17:15] Down... onto your table...

[00:17:17] And you make mistakes

[00:17:20] So...

[00:17:21] When you have 7 or 8 agencies working...

[00:17:26] Together...

[00:17:28] And...

[00:17:28] There will be mistakes...

[00:17:31] There will be errors of judgement...

[00:17:36] And...

[00:17:39] It is not necessary...

[00:17:42] That the government...

[00:17:43] That the people should know of all the successful operations...

[00:17:47] Of the number of hits that you prevented...

[00:17:51] The number of terrorist groups that you broke...

[00:17:54] The number of...

[00:17:55] Terrorists you...

[00:17:57] Apprehended before they even landed in India...

[00:17:59] You don't...

[00:18:00] Nobody knows...

[00:18:01] Because...

[00:18:01] If we tell the people this...

[00:18:03] That this is how it is...

[00:18:04] We were doing this...

[00:18:06] They captured...

[00:18:06] So and so...

[00:18:09] Imtiyaz Khan in that place...

[00:18:11] Now the other side is watching...

[00:18:14] They will know...

[00:18:14] How did they get to know...

[00:18:15] They will work backwards...

[00:18:17] They will say...

[00:18:18] This is how they picked up this guy...

[00:18:20] So the channel is completely closed...

[00:18:22] You mentioned this in your book as well...

[00:18:25] Better be known for his failures than...

[00:18:27] For all the successes...

[00:18:28] We have to just take it on the...

[00:18:30] On the chin...

[00:18:31] And move on...

[00:18:32] It's a very stoic job...

[00:18:34] If I can say that...

[00:18:35] It is...

[00:18:35] It is very exciting...

[00:18:40] When it's going...

[00:18:41] When it's going your way...

[00:18:44] Then...

[00:18:44] Suddenly...

[00:18:45] Things go awry...

[00:18:47] And just pause...

[00:18:48] Think back...

[00:18:49] Turn around...

[00:18:52] If you've...

[00:18:52] If you've worked out a...

[00:18:54] Second strategy it's good...

[00:18:55] If you haven't...

[00:18:56] Then you're...

[00:18:57] In for the high jump...

[00:18:59] So kind of like playing chess...

[00:19:01] Always thinking like...

[00:19:02] A few moves ahead...

[00:19:03] You have to think...

[00:19:04] A couple of moves...

[00:19:05] At least three or four...

[00:19:05] Five moves ahead...

[00:19:07] Right...

[00:19:08] How do you think...

[00:19:08] Are intelligence agencies...

[00:19:10] Stock up against...

[00:19:11] Let's say...

[00:19:12] The US...

[00:19:14] Or even Pakistan...

[00:19:15] Well...

[00:19:16] We are more frequently asked this question...

[00:19:17] And I've got the same reply...

[00:19:20] The thing is...

[00:19:23] What are our threats...

[00:19:27] That we perceive...

[00:19:29] Huh?

[00:19:30] What are the threats that the Americans have...

[00:19:33] That they perceive that they are their threats?

[00:19:35] Now it's a global...

[00:19:38] Power...

[00:19:39] It has interests everywhere...

[00:19:42] All over the globe...

[00:19:44] Like I said earlier that they have 800...

[00:19:46] 750...

[00:19:46] 800 bases...

[00:19:49] Military bases...

[00:19:51] Did you know how many men...

[00:19:52] They were serving in the Kabul office?

[00:19:58] 700...

[00:19:58] Hmm...

[00:19:59] 700...

[00:20:01] You're collecting intelligence...

[00:20:04] So now...

[00:20:05] This is the manpower they've deployed...

[00:20:07] This is the...

[00:20:08] Super structure they've got...

[00:20:10] The techint means to do it...

[00:20:12] So how do I compare myself with them?

[00:20:16] My goals are different...

[00:20:18] My threats are different...

[00:20:20] My means are...

[00:20:20] Much less...

[00:20:22] So...

[00:20:23] Am I using those means...

[00:20:25] In the best way or not?

[00:20:27] That is the question then...

[00:20:29] Right...

[00:20:30] If I'm able to...

[00:20:31] Say that...

[00:20:32] You know...

[00:20:32] With all these handicaps...

[00:20:33] I was able to tell you that...

[00:20:34] The Parkis are going to attack you...

[00:20:36] On the 3rd of December...

[00:20:39] 1971...

[00:20:40] Yeah...

[00:20:40] Which was a very significant...

[00:20:42] Yes...

[00:20:43] So that is your...

[00:20:47] Ability...

[00:20:47] What's happening in Guatemala...

[00:20:49] I'm not concerned...

[00:20:50] I'm not concerned what's happening in North Korea...

[00:20:52] I'm not bothered...

[00:20:54] Africa...

[00:20:55] We should be taking interest...

[00:20:56] But we probably not...

[00:20:59] And...

[00:21:00] Because...

[00:21:01] As...

[00:21:01] As our country...

[00:21:03] Does better...

[00:21:05] Economically...

[00:21:06] And we...

[00:21:06] We move up the ladder...

[00:21:10] We will have...

[00:21:11] Lot of envy...

[00:21:14] We will have lot of obstructions...

[00:21:16] And we will have to hunt for our markets and resources...

[00:21:20] So our intelligence...

[00:21:26] Priorities...

[00:21:27] Will have to alter...

[00:21:29] And the means of collection are changing...

[00:21:31] The technology is going awire...

[00:21:34] That's actually something I wanted to ask you about...

[00:21:36] Which is...

[00:21:37] You lay a lot of emphasis on human intelligence...

[00:21:39] And you say that's the core of...

[00:21:41] You know...

[00:21:42] Espionage...

[00:21:42] And so on...

[00:21:43] But we're also living at these times where...

[00:21:45] You know...

[00:21:45] Pages can be said to explode...

[00:21:48] Yes...

[00:21:48] And so on and so forth...

[00:21:49] You know...

[00:21:49] It's true...

[00:21:52] Technology is...

[00:21:54] Is...

[00:21:55] Running amok...

[00:21:56] Huh...

[00:21:58] Ray Kurzweil...

[00:22:00] I've quoted in my book...

[00:22:02] Singularity is near...

[00:22:03] He had said that by 2025...

[00:22:06] Human intelligence and artificial intelligence will be equal...

[00:22:10] He's written a...

[00:22:11] Subsequent book...

[00:22:13] He said the same thing again...

[00:22:15] That...

[00:22:16] It is now...

[00:22:17] Going to be superior...

[00:22:19] To human intelligence...

[00:22:21] And by the mid-30s...

[00:22:24] Your time...

[00:22:26] The human mind will be linked...

[00:22:30] Technologically...

[00:22:31] Technologically with artificial intelligence...

[00:22:33] Your brain will be linked to that...

[00:22:36] So who's going to control...

[00:22:38] Yeah...

[00:22:39] Few of these...

[00:22:39] When it goes rogue...

[00:22:41] What happens?

[00:22:42] Yeah...

[00:22:43] So...

[00:22:43] In the last couple of years...

[00:22:45] Chad GPT has passed the...

[00:22:46] Turing test...

[00:22:47] Right...

[00:22:48] We also have Neuralink...

[00:22:49] Which...

[00:22:50] You know...

[00:22:51] Elon Musk's company...

[00:22:52] Which directly links to the brain...

[00:22:53] Right...

[00:22:53] And a lot of these developments...

[00:22:56] We kind of think of it linearly...

[00:22:58] But it's always happened in exponential...

[00:23:00] It's geometric progression...

[00:23:02] And...

[00:23:02] Artificial intelligence or...

[00:23:04] Technology will certainly hit you so hard...

[00:23:07] Because it grows...

[00:23:09] Exponentially as you say...

[00:23:10] The...

[00:23:12] The...

[00:23:13] Americans were...

[00:23:15] Were...

[00:23:16] Researching...

[00:23:17] On...

[00:23:18] A thing they called Stardust for other...

[00:23:20] For...

[00:23:21] DARPA their agency...

[00:23:23] That they sprinkled it on...

[00:23:25] On the...

[00:23:25] Ground...

[00:23:26] On the grass...

[00:23:27] In a...

[00:23:27] In a...

[00:23:28] Target area...

[00:23:29] Each one of them acts as a communication...

[00:23:32] Listening device and communicator...

[00:23:35] Huh?

[00:23:36] And your...

[00:23:39] Your...

[00:23:40] These are going to be the size of bumblebees...

[00:23:43] Yeah...

[00:23:43] So...

[00:23:44] How are you going to control all that?

[00:23:46] But behind all that is a...

[00:23:47] Human mind...

[00:23:48] No?

[00:23:49] So far...

[00:23:50] Our technology is not...

[00:23:51] Self-inventing...

[00:23:53] Somebody is doing it...

[00:23:55] Right...

[00:23:55] Somebody is doing the...

[00:23:57] Research on the...

[00:23:58] Biological thing...

[00:24:00] Somebody was researching for...

[00:24:05] Wasn't it?

[00:24:06] So you still think that...

[00:24:07] Let's say...

[00:24:08] Cultivating assets in a different...

[00:24:10] Uh...

[00:24:11] Country...

[00:24:12] Understanding our strategic...

[00:24:13] Priorities...

[00:24:14] And sort of moving all of these different...

[00:24:15] Things in motion...

[00:24:16] Will...

[00:24:16] Will be like an acutely human thing...

[00:24:19] Let's...

[00:24:20] Let's...

[00:24:20] Assume that you are the raw agent...

[00:24:22] And I am your target...

[00:24:24] Okay...

[00:24:25] Okay...

[00:24:25] You...

[00:24:26] You are me and I am...

[00:24:27] I'm you...

[00:24:28] You want to cultivate me...

[00:24:30] You know that I have got access to...

[00:24:34] A certain...

[00:24:35] Nuclear facility...

[00:24:37] And you want to cultivate me...

[00:24:39] Now the thing is...

[00:24:43] I come and give you the information...

[00:24:46] Hmm?

[00:24:48] That...

[00:24:49] We've got...

[00:24:50] These kinds of...

[00:24:52] Bombs...

[00:24:52] Yeah...

[00:24:53] So...

[00:24:53] You've established...

[00:24:55] That these chaps have got...

[00:24:57] The capability...

[00:25:02] Right?

[00:25:04] The technology...

[00:25:05] Technology you've got hold of...

[00:25:09] But...

[00:25:09] How do you know...

[00:25:11] When I am going to use it?

[00:25:13] Or if I am going to use it?

[00:25:16] How far will you go...

[00:25:18] To tell the government...

[00:25:20] No...

[00:25:20] It's okay...

[00:25:21] We know this guy...

[00:25:22] We know him personally...

[00:25:24] He is a timid fellow...

[00:25:25] He won't do it...

[00:25:26] I have got it...

[00:25:28] Or you will tell him...

[00:25:29] Be careful...

[00:25:30] This chap is erratic...

[00:25:33] Or...

[00:25:34] He is...

[00:25:35] He is an adventurous fellow...

[00:25:37] Then he will go...

[00:25:38] First he will go...

[00:25:39] You can get it only through human...

[00:25:41] You can't get it from reading...

[00:25:43] You know...

[00:25:44] All the...

[00:25:46] So...

[00:25:47] Human intelligence...

[00:25:48] Will always play a part...

[00:25:49] In the final...

[00:25:51] Lap...

[00:25:52] In a race...

[00:25:53] The discretionary element...

[00:25:54] The discretionary...

[00:25:55] The mental break-up...

[00:25:56] The mindset...

[00:25:58] All those things...

[00:25:59] You need to know...

[00:26:00] Right...

[00:26:01] Plus...

[00:26:02] How do you know...

[00:26:03] In the first place...

[00:26:04] That you have to contact me...

[00:26:06] If you hadn't done it...

[00:26:08] You wouldn't have got that information...

[00:26:10] Right...

[00:26:12] So...

[00:26:12] These linkages...

[00:26:13] Will remain important...

[00:26:15] The difficulty...

[00:26:17] Is...

[00:26:17] It's so...

[00:26:18] Everybody is under...

[00:26:19] Technological surveillance now...

[00:26:22] The speed at which...

[00:26:23] Information is travelling...

[00:26:25] The amount it is travelling...

[00:26:27] That is difficult to beat...

[00:26:31] Right...

[00:26:32] What do you think...

[00:26:32] We should do...

[00:26:33] To kind of...

[00:26:33] Level up on the...

[00:26:35] Defence...

[00:26:35] And technology capabilities...

[00:26:37] You know...

[00:26:37] One of the things...

[00:26:38] That we've seen in recent years...

[00:26:39] Is the whole...

[00:26:39] Defence Acquisition Council...

[00:26:41] And this focus on...

[00:26:43] Atmanirbar Bharat...

[00:26:44] And so on...

[00:26:44] Right...

[00:26:44] So...

[00:26:45] A lot of private...

[00:26:46] Organisations...

[00:26:47] Are being encouraged...

[00:26:48] To sort of...

[00:26:48] Supply to the armed forces...

[00:26:50] As it were...

[00:26:52] Is there anything else...

[00:26:53] That you can do...

[00:26:54] From a policy perspective...

[00:26:55] To sort of...

[00:26:57] Amplify this further...

[00:26:58] Well...

[00:26:58] I would think that...

[00:27:00] We have to go private...

[00:27:04] Because...

[00:27:05] That's where...

[00:27:06] The technological brains are...

[00:27:08] That's where the innovation is...

[00:27:12] Isro is another...

[00:27:13] Is a different example...

[00:27:16] But...

[00:27:17] If you're going to develop...

[00:27:19] Your own weaponry...

[00:27:21] Your own tanks...

[00:27:22] Or aircraft...

[00:27:23] Then you've got to rely on...

[00:27:25] Some corporate interest in that...

[00:27:28] And we should give up...

[00:27:30] That old Nehruvian idea...

[00:27:31] That...

[00:27:33] Prophets are evil...

[00:27:34] You know...

[00:27:34] Prophets are the ways...

[00:27:35] That life goes...

[00:27:36] Yeah...

[00:27:37] And that the government...

[00:27:38] Will build everything...

[00:27:40] Right...

[00:27:40] Government shouldn't...

[00:27:42] Government can't...

[00:27:43] Right...

[00:27:44] So there are many different...

[00:27:45] Aspects that...

[00:27:46] We'll...

[00:27:47] Delve upon...

[00:27:48] One of these things is...

[00:27:49] Of course...

[00:27:49] That's critical to us...

[00:27:50] Regional stability...

[00:27:52] With...

[00:27:53] Everything that's happening around us...

[00:27:54] There's more instability...

[00:27:55] Than stability...

[00:27:56] So I'm going to...

[00:27:57] Pass it over to...

[00:27:59] Shagarika...

[00:27:59] To...

[00:28:00] Talk us through this section...

[00:28:05] So...

[00:28:06] We've discussed this...

[00:28:07] And Bangladesh...

[00:28:08] Is...

[00:28:09] Happening...

[00:28:10] Even as we speak...

[00:28:11] Even though we can say that...

[00:28:12] The majority of the tumult...

[00:28:14] Is past...

[00:28:14] The political tumult...

[00:28:16] Do you think...

[00:28:17] India was caught off guard...

[00:28:19] When it comes to Bangladesh?

[00:28:22] It's...

[00:28:22] It's not fair for me to tell you...

[00:28:24] To ask...

[00:28:25] To comment on this...

[00:28:26] I don't know what happened...

[00:28:28] I was not there...

[00:28:30] But it seems that...

[00:28:34] It was quite apparent that...

[00:28:36] Sheikh Hasina was losing popularity...

[00:28:38] She was on a downward slope...

[00:28:41] And...

[00:28:42] Since...

[00:28:43] Bangladesh...

[00:28:44] And our neighbouring countries...

[00:28:45] Are some places...

[00:28:46] That we really keep a good watch on...

[00:28:49] I doubt if...

[00:28:50] They didn't know...

[00:28:51] That...

[00:28:52] They...

[00:28:53] That these are numbered...

[00:28:56] But I'm not sure...

[00:28:58] How...

[00:28:59] Accurately...

[00:29:00] They could...

[00:29:01] Says...

[00:29:01] Ke...

[00:29:02] The next month...

[00:29:06] So...

[00:29:06] I...

[00:29:07] I don't think they were caught off guard...

[00:29:09] It's just...

[00:29:10] That you sometimes don't have the means to stop a...

[00:29:14] A tidal wave that is coming...

[00:29:17] And...

[00:29:17] The manner in which...

[00:29:20] The army chief asked her to go...

[00:29:24] It's actually a coup...

[00:29:26] Absolutely...

[00:29:27] And the quick cover was the...

[00:29:29] Ghulam...

[00:29:30] What is his name... Mustafa...

[00:29:32] I always forget...

[00:29:33] The...

[00:29:34] The chief of the interim government...

[00:29:37] The...

[00:29:37] Muhammad Yunus...

[00:29:38] Muhammad Yunus...

[00:29:39] Muhammad Yunus...

[00:29:40] Was brought in...

[00:29:42] Yeah...

[00:29:43] Almost on cue...

[00:29:45] On cue...

[00:29:46] So...

[00:29:47] With Muhammad Yunus being brought in...

[00:29:50] A lot of his cabinet are actually...

[00:29:51] From Grameen Bank...

[00:29:53] They have been...

[00:29:54] Awarded US State Department...

[00:29:57] Awards...

[00:29:58] Of course the student movement...

[00:30:00] That we can see is no longer a student movement...

[00:30:02] Despite that...

[00:30:04] There is...

[00:30:05] No...

[00:30:07] Call out to...

[00:30:08] The...

[00:30:09] Country behind...

[00:30:10] The chaos...

[00:30:12] You know...

[00:30:12] Very few people have called out...

[00:30:14] A US intervention...

[00:30:17] And...

[00:30:18] Even...

[00:30:19] Muhammad Yunus being the plant...

[00:30:21] There is not sufficient evidence...

[00:30:23] Who do you think would call that out...

[00:30:26] In the neighborhood...

[00:30:27] No one will do it...

[00:30:27] For example...

[00:30:29] Despite a lack of evidence...

[00:30:31] Canada is...

[00:30:32] Cites...

[00:30:34] Chinese...

[00:30:34] I mean...

[00:30:35] They have evidence for Chinese interference...

[00:30:36] But they also cite...

[00:30:37] Indian interference in their elections...

[00:30:40] Yeah...

[00:30:41] No...

[00:30:41] But that is...

[00:30:41] These are all selective acquisitions...

[00:30:43] Absolutely...

[00:30:44] But...

[00:30:44] Is there no way with...

[00:30:45] This much evidence that...

[00:30:47] Mainstream media or...

[00:30:50] Perhaps...

[00:30:50] People in...

[00:30:52] Certain positions...

[00:30:53] Are able to call it out...

[00:30:55] Or at least...

[00:30:56] Imply...

[00:30:57] For the...

[00:30:58] Sake of Bangladesh...

[00:31:00] And its regional...

[00:31:01] And India's regional stability...

[00:31:03] I don't think...

[00:31:05] You see...

[00:31:06] In our neighborhood...

[00:31:06] Nobody was going to do it...

[00:31:08] The Chinese have accused the Americans...

[00:31:11] As far as I remember...

[00:31:12] The rest of the world...

[00:31:14] Couldn't care less...

[00:31:16] I mean...

[00:31:16] It's...

[00:31:17] If the...

[00:31:19] People of the world are not...

[00:31:21] So involved with Ukraine...

[00:31:22] Why would they bother about this country?

[00:31:24] That leaves only us...

[00:31:26] Actually...

[00:31:27] It leaves only us...

[00:31:28] Us is really what I mean...

[00:31:30] Us is what you really meant...

[00:31:31] And I was...

[00:31:32] Going around in circles...

[00:31:34] But...

[00:31:35] The thing is...

[00:31:38] Who in the government...

[00:31:40] Can say that...

[00:31:41] I have proof...

[00:31:41] That you did it?

[00:31:44] We don't...

[00:31:48] And if you have the proof...

[00:31:49] The normal way would have been...

[00:31:50] To go and tell them...

[00:31:53] But you don't have the proof...

[00:31:55] This is all...

[00:31:56] An assessment people have made...

[00:31:59] That this is...

[00:32:00] How it was done...

[00:32:01] That Daniel Liu was coming...

[00:32:03] Et cetera...

[00:32:04] Et cetera...

[00:32:04] And the...

[00:32:05] High Commission...

[00:32:06] The ambassador was also involved...

[00:32:09] But...

[00:32:10] How do you...

[00:32:11] Tell anybody that you have done it?

[00:32:15] I mean...

[00:32:17] I think...

[00:32:18] Shishir Gupta was used for the...

[00:32:20] Hindustan Times piece on...

[00:32:24] Earlier...

[00:32:25] For...

[00:32:26] Panun being a CIA operative...

[00:32:29] Uh-huh...

[00:32:30] So...

[00:32:30] There are...

[00:32:31] I think...

[00:32:31] I'm sure the government has ways...

[00:32:33] Of placing information...

[00:32:34] But...

[00:32:34] I'm just surprised that...

[00:32:36] Literally...

[00:32:37] There is no mainstream accusation...

[00:32:39] About US intervention...

[00:32:41] Despite the Prime Minister...

[00:32:43] Herself calling out...

[00:32:44] A white man...

[00:32:45] Whether that's...

[00:32:45] Donald Liu...

[00:32:46] Or Peter Haas...

[00:32:47] Is...

[00:32:48] A different matter...

[00:32:49] But...

[00:32:49] She has been the Prime Minister...

[00:32:51] And...

[00:32:52] Um...

[00:32:52] Her being treated like...

[00:32:53] A regular lay person...

[00:32:55] And not being...

[00:32:56] Listened to...

[00:32:57] No...

[00:32:57] I think...

[00:32:58] The Indians would probably...

[00:32:59] Want to play...

[00:32:59] Play it out...

[00:33:00] Little more...

[00:33:02] They would probably wait...

[00:33:03] For the next government...

[00:33:04] To come in...

[00:33:06] We did kind of...

[00:33:07] Allude to it though...

[00:33:07] I think...

[00:33:08] Dr. Jai Shankar...

[00:33:09] You know...

[00:33:10] Happened to speak about...

[00:33:11] The state of Bangladeshi Hindus...

[00:33:13] With the...

[00:33:13] Yeah...

[00:33:14] Someone from the US...

[00:33:15] I don't know if it was...

[00:33:16] Mr. Blinken...

[00:33:16] Or someone else...

[00:33:17] He has done that...

[00:33:18] Yes...

[00:33:19] Sort of alluding to the fact...

[00:33:20] That US has a stake in the matter...

[00:33:21] Right...

[00:33:22] So...

[00:33:22] Yeah...

[00:33:23] So...

[00:33:24] We have to...

[00:33:25] Play it...

[00:33:25] Little...

[00:33:26] Softly...

[00:33:27] I think...

[00:33:28] And...

[00:33:29] Since our relations...

[00:33:31] With the United States...

[00:33:32] Are a little...

[00:33:34] I see...

[00:33:35] Tricky...

[00:33:37] We all say...

[00:33:38] We are good...

[00:33:39] Best friends...

[00:33:40] But I am not sure...

[00:33:42] Whether...

[00:33:43] You know...

[00:33:43] This latest thing about...

[00:33:45] Accusing...

[00:33:45] Putting...

[00:33:46] NSA on the list of...

[00:33:49] You know...

[00:33:49] Deliberately done...

[00:33:51] And then...

[00:33:52] The delegation meets...

[00:33:55] Biden...

[00:33:55] Before Biden meets...

[00:33:58] The president...

[00:34:00] Meets the prime minister...

[00:34:02] That's...

[00:34:02] That's signaling...

[00:34:04] That is messaging...

[00:34:06] How does India respond?

[00:34:08] What is our scope?

[00:34:09] Just because of the power differential here...

[00:34:11] We have stood up...

[00:34:12] A few times...

[00:34:13] Yes...

[00:34:14] We have...

[00:34:14] This is an attack...

[00:34:16] Directly on our sovereignty...

[00:34:17] One can say...

[00:34:45] Because...

[00:34:46] The Americans...

[00:34:46] What do they want from us?

[00:34:49] They want us to...

[00:34:50] We aren't buying...

[00:34:51] They want us now to ban Russia today...

[00:34:54] Yes...

[00:34:55] Russia TV...

[00:34:56] They want us to...

[00:34:58] Not go around shaking hands and...

[00:35:00] Hugging Putin...

[00:35:02] Or buying oil...

[00:35:04] Which they...

[00:35:04] They want us...

[00:35:05] They will buy from us...

[00:35:06] And sell it elsewhere...

[00:35:09] So I am not sure where...

[00:35:13] Where this is going...

[00:35:15] I would think that...

[00:35:16] We are just waiting for...

[00:35:19] Hopefully for a change of government...

[00:35:20] Maybe...

[00:35:21] Or a change of leadership there...

[00:35:24] Sorry...

[00:35:25] Eric Garcati has himself...

[00:35:27] Just like Peter Haas in Bangladesh...

[00:35:29] Eric Garcati being ambassador to India...

[00:35:31] Has been part of quite a lot of...

[00:35:34] These...

[00:35:36] Issues...

[00:35:36] Messaging...

[00:35:37] Yeah...

[00:35:38] Literally been placed here to do the messaging...

[00:35:40] Which is very anti-host nation...

[00:35:44] How involved is...

[00:35:47] Intelligence typically...

[00:35:48] In all these kinds of signaling?

[00:35:51] Is it plainly political?

[00:35:52] No...

[00:35:52] This is a diplomatic thing...

[00:35:54] This is not...

[00:35:57] IBE thing or anything...

[00:35:59] This is what the American ambassador is saying...

[00:36:01] He is saying...

[00:36:02] And...

[00:36:03] The reply would go only from the foreign office...

[00:36:05] Nowhere else...

[00:36:06] But when you...

[00:36:07] Pursue a strategic interest...

[00:36:09] I mean...

[00:36:09] Do these intelligence agencies...

[00:36:12] Not layer that with...

[00:36:13] Their own inputs on...

[00:36:14] What's actually happening on the ground and so on?

[00:36:17] Like...

[00:36:18] Let's say...

[00:36:19] In...

[00:36:19] I mean if the foreign office is...

[00:36:21] Has to do...

[00:36:22] X or Y things...

[00:36:23] They have a mission...

[00:36:24] Do you think that they might...

[00:36:26] Also seek inputs from...

[00:36:27] The RAW and so on?

[00:36:29] Yeah...

[00:36:30] Sometimes I do ask...

[00:36:31] What would be the repercussions...

[00:36:33] What are your assessments?

[00:36:35] If we have an assessment...

[00:36:37] We will give...

[00:36:41] So...

[00:36:42] There...

[00:36:43] There is always consultation...

[00:36:44] But this is not...

[00:36:46] If they are...

[00:36:49] Visiting...

[00:36:50] An ambassador is making a comment...

[00:36:53] Making a statement...

[00:36:55] Its response is never from the...

[00:36:58] Intelligence Agency...

[00:37:00] The response has to be...

[00:37:02] From...

[00:37:03] The...

[00:37:04] Foreign office...

[00:37:06] Which...

[00:37:06] I think they are pretty good at...

[00:37:08] These days...

[00:37:08] They are...

[00:37:09] Little more aggressive than they were...

[00:37:11] In the past...

[00:37:12] Before the last...

[00:37:14] This government has been...

[00:37:16] Little...

[00:37:17] More...

[00:37:17] Not a little...

[00:37:18] Actually quite a bit...

[00:37:21] Aggressive in the responses...

[00:37:26] Just...

[00:37:27] I do want to say that...

[00:37:28] We have discussed...

[00:37:29] This previously as well...

[00:37:31] On...

[00:37:32] A Questioning Mind...

[00:37:33] But...

[00:37:33] Can we not be doing...

[00:37:36] More...

[00:37:36] Because...

[00:37:37] Just because...

[00:37:38] The pressures are also most...

[00:37:39] In this government...

[00:37:40] Just for the lack of...

[00:37:42] Pliancy...

[00:37:43] One could say...

[00:37:44] And...

[00:37:44] Apart from buying...

[00:37:46] Cheap Russian oil...

[00:37:47] Which is a necessity...

[00:37:48] For Indians...

[00:37:49] And just standing by that...

[00:37:50] Without being rude at all...

[00:37:52] The kind of...

[00:37:53] Targeted harassment...

[00:37:55] Honestly...

[00:37:56] At this point...

[00:37:57] Meeting Khalistani delegates...

[00:37:58] Meeting the leader of opposition...

[00:38:00] Talking...

[00:38:01] Clearly talking about...

[00:38:02] The balkanization of the nation...

[00:38:04] Hosting...

[00:38:05] People who support this idea...

[00:38:07] On...

[00:38:08] Government stages...

[00:38:10] It's...

[00:38:10] It can be construed...

[00:38:12] As an attack on India's sovereignty...

[00:38:14] And...

[00:38:15] We are hardly post-colonial...

[00:38:16] It's not even been a century...

[00:38:18] As such...

[00:38:19] Is it...

[00:38:20] Too much to expect that...

[00:38:22] India has a...

[00:38:23] Clearer...

[00:38:25] Response...

[00:38:26] You could look at it...

[00:38:27] Two ways...

[00:38:28] One is that...

[00:38:31] There are certain countries...

[00:38:33] Who look at India...

[00:38:37] With a certain amount of...

[00:38:40] Fear...

[00:38:42] Fear maybe...

[00:38:42] Or trepidation...

[00:38:44] As it arises...

[00:38:45] It becomes more...

[00:38:50] Involved in the...

[00:38:52] Outside world...

[00:38:53] It will seek more...

[00:38:55] Markets...

[00:38:56] It will...

[00:38:57] Replace...

[00:38:58] Other people's markets...

[00:39:00] It will...

[00:39:02] Demand...

[00:39:03] Seek resources that the others want...

[00:39:07] And...

[00:39:08] And...

[00:39:08] Then...

[00:39:09] The...

[00:39:10] Economic power leads to political power and military power...

[00:39:14] Can you have two Asian countries together like this?

[00:39:19] They made a mistake by encouraging China to become...

[00:39:24] What it has...

[00:39:27] Globalization...

[00:39:28] Then they themselves got into the 2008 financial crisis...

[00:39:32] The Chinese continued happily...

[00:39:34] It's now that they are slowing down a bit...

[00:39:36] But they are still ahead...

[00:39:38] Of us...

[00:39:39] Way ahead of us...

[00:39:40] But...

[00:39:42] For a democracy...

[00:39:45] To...

[00:39:46] Follow the kinds of...

[00:39:48] Systems that the Chinese did...

[00:39:50] We can't do it...

[00:39:53] Therefore...

[00:39:53] They are able to pressurize you...

[00:39:56] In many ways...

[00:39:57] To slow down...

[00:40:00] That is what I think is happening...

[00:40:02] Democracy and a power differential getting in the way...

[00:40:05] Alright...

[00:40:06] And that makes sense...

[00:40:07] I think that's...

[00:40:07] That is what they want to do...

[00:40:09] They want to keep you...

[00:40:12] Be low life...

[00:40:14] Don't have too many ambitions...

[00:40:18] And...

[00:40:19] I'm just going to cross over a little bit into the narrative aspect as well...

[00:40:23] Because...

[00:40:23] We've had India out campaigns in Bangladesh...

[00:40:27] Before...

[00:40:28] The interim government taking over...

[00:40:30] We had that previously in Maldives...

[00:40:32] Successfully...

[00:40:33] Successfully enough...

[00:40:34] Just...

[00:40:34] It's purely the economic dependency on India...

[00:40:37] That has caused Maldives and Bangladesh to...

[00:40:39] Turn around and try and take back their words...

[00:40:42] But this has succeeded...

[00:40:43] This sort of narrative building around India out...

[00:40:47] Promoted by China...

[00:40:49] How...

[00:40:50] Does India fare in this regard about...

[00:40:53] Building a sort of...

[00:40:55] Pro-India or anti-China narrative...

[00:40:57] I'm pretty sure we don't do any anti-anything...

[00:41:00] I'm not sure about that...

[00:41:01] No better person to ask...

[00:41:03] No...

[00:41:04] I wouldn't know what they've been doing in the last 20 years...

[00:41:07] But I do not...

[00:41:09] Still don't think that...

[00:41:11] We were doing absolutely nothing and letting this go...

[00:41:15] Out of our hands...

[00:41:17] It is usually...

[00:41:20] You want to be friends with the distant power...

[00:41:24] Not with...

[00:41:27] Neighbouring power...

[00:41:28] Because the neighbouring power is a threat...

[00:41:31] The distant power can be your friend...

[00:41:34] So politically...

[00:41:36] Each leader wants to be closer to China...

[00:41:40] They won't conquer us...

[00:41:41] They would not do this...

[00:41:42] But these Indians might do that...

[00:41:44] They got a...

[00:41:44] Wretched Navy that can swamp in...

[00:41:47] Remember we did that in 1989...

[00:41:50] When there was a coup in the Maldives...

[00:41:52] And we moved in...

[00:41:52] Overnight and stopped it...

[00:41:55] They don't forget...

[00:41:58] We did...

[00:41:59] The most help that we gave during tsunami...

[00:42:02] Was the Indian Navy...

[00:42:03] Okay...

[00:42:04] It was a noble gesture...

[00:42:06] It was a brilliant gesture...

[00:42:08] It was a friendly gesture...

[00:42:10] But it also means that they have the power...

[00:42:16] Okay...

[00:42:17] Bangladesh is surrounded on three sides...

[00:42:20] By the Indians...

[00:42:23] They don't do anything...

[00:42:25] But they can...

[00:42:26] Because what they did in other places...

[00:42:28] Remember...

[00:42:29] The Indian Army...

[00:42:32] Helped the Mukti Bhaini...

[00:42:34] Break Pakistan...

[00:42:38] So they remember that...

[00:42:40] Negative aspect...

[00:42:43] Why has that...

[00:42:45] Which was an immensely positive aspect...

[00:42:48] For the Bangladeshis themselves...

[00:42:49] Why has that suddenly become a negative aspect...

[00:42:53] It's not now...

[00:42:54] It's not you stating it...

[00:42:55] And it's not after the coup...

[00:42:56] Because there were a lot of college students...

[00:42:59] I've watched interviews in Bangla...

[00:43:01] Ages ago...

[00:43:02] Who literally...

[00:43:03] They did cite...

[00:43:05] Indian interference...

[00:43:07] Instead of...

[00:43:07] Indian assistance...

[00:43:09] And independence...

[00:43:11] Which was the initial narrative...

[00:43:13] That's what the Awami League has always maintained...

[00:43:15] Which is what initial textbooks maintained...

[00:43:17] Is that India was the sister nation...

[00:43:19] That offered freedom and independence...

[00:43:22] Because...

[00:43:23] People don't remember this...

[00:43:24] But the Bengalis were treated horribly...

[00:43:26] The Bengali Muslims from East Pakistan...

[00:43:28] Were terribly mistreated by...

[00:43:30] The Punjabi Pakistani management...

[00:43:34] So...

[00:43:35] Which is why the entire movement came about...

[00:43:37] So how did this get turned around on its head?

[00:43:39] You know...

[00:43:40] What was the original name of the Awami League?

[00:43:45] Muslim Awami League...

[00:43:49] Okay...

[00:43:50] Who started the...

[00:43:52] Debacle...

[00:43:53] The riots in...

[00:43:55] August 1946...

[00:43:58] Who sent Mohamud Shuravardee from Bangladesh...

[00:44:01] Now Bangladesh...

[00:44:02] That time Bengal...

[00:44:04] He started it...

[00:44:07] And...

[00:44:07] The original...

[00:44:09] Demand of the Awami League was on language...

[00:44:13] Only language...

[00:44:14] And...

[00:44:14] Five other points of greater autonomy...

[00:44:17] It's when the Pakistanis made that...

[00:44:20] Stupid mistake of not letting Sheikh Mujib run the government...

[00:44:23] That laid the...

[00:44:25] Paces for...

[00:44:27] Bangladesh...

[00:44:27] Okay...

[00:44:28] Then we know all the events that took place...

[00:44:32] And...

[00:44:33] The Bihari Muslims...

[00:44:35] The Jamaat-e-Islami now...

[00:44:37] Were in favor of the Pakistanis...

[00:44:39] Even then...

[00:44:43] Three...

[00:44:43] Two and a half years after...

[00:44:45] Bangladesh became independent...

[00:44:49] Sheikh Mujib and his family were slaughtered...

[00:44:52] In his house...

[00:44:53] By...

[00:44:55] No...

[00:44:55] 72...

[00:44:56] He took over...

[00:44:57] 75...

[00:44:57] He died...

[00:44:59] December 16...

[00:45:01] 1975...

[00:45:02] He landed in...

[00:45:07] Dhaka...

[00:45:08] And August...

[00:45:09] 75...

[00:45:10] He was gone...

[00:45:13] Two and a half years...

[00:45:15] What happened?

[00:45:18] He was done in by the Islamists...

[00:45:21] Backed by the army...

[00:45:23] Who then took over...

[00:45:25] After...

[00:45:26] From the Khonkar Mushtaq...

[00:45:27] For a little while...

[00:45:28] Then...

[00:45:29] Zia Rahman...

[00:45:30] Martial Law...

[00:45:32] Khalid and the Zia...

[00:45:33] Musan Mah...

[00:45:34] I'm not...

[00:45:35] Just naming them...

[00:45:36] Not the sequence...

[00:45:37] Hussein Muhammad Irshad...

[00:45:39] They were running the government...

[00:45:41] Sheikh Hazina...

[00:45:42] Sheikh Hazina came for one term...

[00:45:43] This was knocked out again...

[00:45:44] And then we had...

[00:45:46] Khalid Azir...

[00:45:47] Running the government...

[00:45:49] So...

[00:45:50] How many years of independence...

[00:45:53] Has it been run...

[00:45:55] By...

[00:45:56] An...

[00:45:56] Let's say...

[00:45:57] An India loving party...

[00:46:01] So the idea of Pakistan...

[00:46:03] Has been...

[00:46:03] Constantly there...

[00:46:04] Just...

[00:46:05] Bubbling under the surface...

[00:46:06] And it's a societal issue...

[00:46:08] Well that makes...

[00:46:09] I don't know...

[00:46:10] Whether they want to join up...

[00:46:11] With Pakistan again...

[00:46:14] Or...

[00:46:14] Is it a...

[00:46:15] Kind of a threat to us...

[00:46:16] A bargaining chip...

[00:46:18] But Pakistan is also...

[00:46:20] In no position to help them...

[00:46:22] What everybody wants...

[00:46:24] Is chaos...

[00:46:27] Top Jaga...

[00:46:28] You did call it...

[00:46:29] Organized chaos...

[00:46:30] Yeah...

[00:46:31] So...

[00:46:31] So...

[00:46:32] Engineered chaos...

[00:46:32] Engineered chaos...

[00:46:34] Okay...

[00:46:34] Engineered chaos...

[00:46:35] Just look around the world...

[00:46:39] We...

[00:46:40] Had three...

[00:46:41] Two world wars...

[00:46:45] Before and after that...

[00:46:46] How many years of peace...

[00:46:47] Have we had...

[00:46:52] There have been more...

[00:46:53] Wars fought...

[00:46:54] In the...

[00:46:56] 20th century...

[00:46:57] Second half...

[00:46:58] Particularly after the Cold War ended...

[00:47:01] Until now...

[00:47:02] So...

[00:47:04] That time...

[00:47:04] You had two world wars...

[00:47:05] Now you have the entire world at war...

[00:47:09] Africa...

[00:47:10] Latin America...

[00:47:13] Eurasia...

[00:47:14] Arab Peninsula...

[00:47:17] Trouble here...

[00:47:18] Trouble in Pakistan...

[00:47:20] Trouble...

[00:47:20] Here means Bangladesh...

[00:47:22] Trouble in...

[00:47:24] Pakistan...

[00:47:24] Afghanistan is...

[00:47:26] Is a...

[00:47:27] Trip of its own...

[00:47:30] So...

[00:47:30] Where is the peace?

[00:47:34] Why is this chaos...

[00:47:37] Set in...

[00:47:38] In this fashion?

[00:47:41] Why did the Hamas do that attack?

[00:47:45] How did they do it?

[00:47:50] You know...

[00:47:50] If you think about it...

[00:47:53] Think harder and deeper...

[00:47:54] And you say...

[00:47:57] Israel...

[00:47:58] Is a country which...

[00:47:59] Has the best intelligence...

[00:48:01] Coverage in the world...

[00:48:02] Perhaps...

[00:48:03] It has...

[00:48:04] An existential fear...

[00:48:07] From its Arab leaders...

[00:48:09] How did this happen?

[00:48:13] How do you think it happened?

[00:48:14] How...

[00:48:17] There are conspiracy theories...

[00:48:20] I am not sure that...

[00:48:20] Well...

[00:48:21] You can call it a conspiracy theory...

[00:48:23] Then how did...

[00:48:25] Hezbollah happen?

[00:48:27] So...

[00:48:28] One end of the...

[00:48:28] How is it...

[00:48:29] That the Israelis...

[00:48:31] Were able to kill...

[00:48:32] Those three guys of Hamas...

[00:48:34] Pinpointed...

[00:48:35] In Tehran...

[00:48:35] Yeah...

[00:48:36] And couldn't see this one...

[00:48:38] October 7th...

[00:48:39] Alright...

[00:48:39] So...

[00:48:39] Since you are mentioning it...

[00:48:40] I am just going to lay it out...

[00:48:42] But...

[00:48:43] There are talks that...

[00:48:46] This feels...

[00:48:47] Horrible saying it...

[00:48:49] But...

[00:48:50] That...

[00:48:50] October 7th...

[00:48:51] Laid the ground for what is going on now...

[00:48:53] And the ultimate destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah...

[00:48:56] Even though Hezbollah has...

[00:48:58] Struck back and killed 38 Israeli IDF soldiers...

[00:49:02] Today...

[00:49:02] I think...

[00:49:03] Earlier today...

[00:49:05] So...

[00:49:05] Is that...

[00:49:07] A...

[00:49:08] Real possibility?

[00:49:09] I don't know what the possibility is...

[00:49:13] But...

[00:49:14] Somehow I don't...

[00:49:17] Cannot understand how this was allowed to happen...

[00:49:22] The Americans...

[00:49:23] Told the...

[00:49:26] Their people...

[00:49:27] American citizens...

[00:49:29] Don't go to Moscow...

[00:49:30] There is a threat...

[00:49:32] Terrorist threat...

[00:49:32] Remember?

[00:49:34] That...

[00:49:34] That city in...

[00:49:37] The suburb in...

[00:49:39] Moscow was attacked by a terrorist...

[00:49:42] Some months ago...

[00:49:44] Yes...

[00:49:44] Yes...

[00:49:44] It was a mall I think...

[00:49:45] Mall...

[00:49:46] A long time...

[00:49:47] Right?

[00:49:47] Few months back...

[00:49:48] They had that intelligence...

[00:49:51] They have 17 agencies...

[00:49:54] They have...

[00:49:54] All the coverage in the world...

[00:49:57] They didn't know...

[00:49:58] Hamas was going to attack...

[00:49:59] So...

[00:50:00] I think you had...

[00:50:01] Only previously mentioned this...

[00:50:03] On a different talk...

[00:50:05] That...

[00:50:06] Sometimes intelligence...

[00:50:07] Gets lost...

[00:50:08] And you know...

[00:50:09] Does not reach the right years...

[00:50:10] And may have been the case here...

[00:50:12] Is that...

[00:50:13] A likely...

[00:50:15] Explanation...

[00:50:15] That there was intelligence...

[00:50:17] But it just...

[00:50:18] Wasn't...

[00:50:19] Yeah...

[00:50:20] Maybe that's how it happened...

[00:50:22] Right...

[00:50:22] I'm giving...

[00:50:23] Maybe that's how it happened...

[00:50:25] But...

[00:50:26] Alright...

[00:50:27] Coming to Myanmar...

[00:50:28] Also...

[00:50:29] A very unstable part...

[00:50:30] Of our neighborhood...

[00:50:33] It's affecting...

[00:50:34] The Northeastern states...

[00:50:36] And Manipur is burning as well...

[00:50:40] How much of...

[00:50:41] This is China engineered...

[00:50:44] And...

[00:50:45] How can Indian Intel...

[00:50:47] Help your...

[00:50:48] How is India prepared...

[00:50:50] For this sort of chaos...

[00:50:51] On all sides?

[00:50:53] You know...

[00:50:54] What is happening in Myanmar...

[00:50:57] Our Northeastern plus Myanmar...

[00:51:00] Are the two regions...

[00:51:02] We have neglected...

[00:51:04] All along...

[00:51:05] From day one...

[00:51:07] It's sort of...

[00:51:09] Ah...

[00:51:09] You're down there...

[00:51:10] Let's...

[00:51:11] Because...

[00:51:12] Myanmar...

[00:51:13] Was not like Pakistan...

[00:51:14] It has...

[00:51:15] We have roughly the same length of border...

[00:51:17] Little less...

[00:51:19] But they never attacked us...

[00:51:21] They never sent...

[00:51:22] Gorillas...

[00:51:23] They never sent...

[00:51:24] Jihadis...

[00:51:25] So...

[00:51:25] We just thought...

[00:51:27] That's...

[00:51:28] South East Station...

[00:51:29] Now that the Chinese have moved in...

[00:51:32] Now we are worried...

[00:51:37] We could have...

[00:51:38] It could have been the other way...

[00:51:40] Had we paid more attention...

[00:51:42] To the...

[00:51:42] To the Northeastern...

[00:51:44] And to...

[00:51:47] Burma...

[00:51:47] Burma...

[00:51:47] We would have been...

[00:51:48] In a much better position today...

[00:51:54] Burma...

[00:51:55] Is...

[00:51:56] Myanmar...

[00:51:57] Sorry...

[00:51:57] Myanmar is...

[00:51:59] Is a country...

[00:52:00] Which has a lot of...

[00:52:02] Affinity or...

[00:52:03] Similarity with India...

[00:52:06] If you've been to Pagan...

[00:52:08] You would see...

[00:52:10] The...

[00:52:11] The temples that are built...

[00:52:13] All the temples...

[00:52:15] Many of the...

[00:52:16] Buddhist temples...

[00:52:18] Have Ganesha at the gate...

[00:52:20] For good luck...

[00:52:22] The Anand temple looks like...

[00:52:25] A typical South Indian temple...

[00:52:30] Absolutely...

[00:52:31] It could be Madurai...

[00:52:33] Or...

[00:52:33] Anywhere like that...

[00:52:36] But...

[00:52:37] We've lost...

[00:52:38] It because...

[00:52:39] We neglected it...

[00:52:41] We didn't pay enough attention to it...

[00:52:44] We could have sold them...

[00:52:48] Dal...

[00:52:49] And Sabzi from across the border...

[00:52:52] And bought their rice cheap...

[00:52:54] And fed the North East...

[00:52:56] Instead of giving subsidised rice from Delhi...

[00:53:00] We...

[00:53:02] Didn't think of all these things...

[00:53:07] Even though it's not a hot...

[00:53:08] Now...

[00:53:08] If the Chinese are there...

[00:53:10] In large numbers...

[00:53:12] And the drugs are there...

[00:53:14] The drugs are there...

[00:53:16] In the Shan State...

[00:53:16] They've been there for...

[00:53:17] Ages...

[00:53:18] They're still there...

[00:53:19] Heroine trade is going on...

[00:53:22] This trade from Manipur...

[00:53:23] Through Chin area...

[00:53:25] Is going on...

[00:53:28] So...

[00:53:29] Wherever you have terrorism...

[00:53:31] You have drugs...

[00:53:31] You have terrorism...

[00:53:32] You have drugs...

[00:53:33] You have terrorism...

[00:53:35] It works...

[00:53:36] They use the same channels...

[00:53:38] They use the same money...

[00:53:41] To survive...

[00:53:43] So...

[00:53:43] Unless you...

[00:53:45] Cut the money route...

[00:53:47] It won't stop...

[00:53:52] You have to...

[00:53:58] If you don't get weapons...

[00:53:59] You go and get money...

[00:54:00] To feed your soldiers...

[00:54:02] Or insurgents...

[00:54:03] And how do you...

[00:54:04] Tackle that...

[00:54:05] It is...

[00:54:06] The...

[00:54:07] The idea of...

[00:54:08] Building their lives...

[00:54:09] And rebuilding them...

[00:54:10] And rehabilitating them...

[00:54:12] All comes later...

[00:54:15] First you must...

[00:54:16] Quell...

[00:54:17] The...

[00:54:18] The militancy...

[00:54:21] You know...

[00:54:22] Just saying that...

[00:54:23] Achha...

[00:54:23] I'll give you this land...

[00:54:24] You can grow potatoes here...

[00:54:26] But the fellow makes more money...

[00:54:27] Selling...

[00:54:28] Opium...

[00:54:30] Opium...

[00:54:32] Not...

[00:54:35] Potatoes...

[00:54:36] So...

[00:54:37] Afghanistan is full of that...

[00:54:40] And then they sell it across...

[00:54:43] Comes to India...

[00:54:46] Afghanistan has been...

[00:54:47] The hotspot for sending weapons now...

[00:54:49] That have been left behind...

[00:54:50] Yes...

[00:54:51] Now a lot of law...

[00:54:51] Left behind weapons...

[00:54:52] They have been...

[00:54:53] Giving away...

[00:54:55] So...

[00:54:56] This is part of...

[00:54:56] Chaos strategy...

[00:54:59] Kisika weapon...

[00:55:00] Kahan mil gaya...

[00:55:00] Paunch gaya...

[00:55:01] You don't know...

[00:55:01] Africa is fighting...

[00:55:03] All...

[00:55:04] Either civil wars...

[00:55:05] Or insurgencies...

[00:55:07] Or...

[00:55:08] That's going on...

[00:55:12] And...

[00:55:13] It's all for...

[00:55:14] Either...

[00:55:15] The...

[00:55:15] Minerals that they have...

[00:55:16] Or the...

[00:55:17] Oil and gas that they have in South Sudan...

[00:55:22] The...

[00:55:24] Uranium in...

[00:55:26] Niger...

[00:55:27] These are all...

[00:55:29] Interests that...

[00:55:31] Keep...

[00:55:33] These...

[00:55:34] Non-governmental interest...

[00:55:36] Who want to be overlord alive...

[00:55:38] Who want to keep...

[00:55:40] To make...

[00:55:40] Their money...

[00:55:41] Instead of letting the government and the people make money...

[00:55:45] So...

[00:55:45] We are lucky that after independence...

[00:55:48] We have...

[00:55:49] Remained a democracy...

[00:55:54] Where else...

[00:55:54] What has happened to Pakistan...

[00:55:56] What has happened to Bangladesh...

[00:55:58] What has happened to Myanmar...

[00:55:59] The others...

[00:56:04] The others have...

[00:56:04] Wobbly...

[00:56:05] Democracies...

[00:56:06] In our neighborhood...

[00:56:08] You mentioned...

[00:56:09] Neglects...

[00:56:10] And wobbly democracies...

[00:56:12] Um...

[00:56:13] Last question...

[00:56:14] Before I hand it back to...

[00:56:16] Russian...

[00:56:16] For a bigger picture...

[00:56:18] Instead of just the neighborhood...

[00:56:20] But...

[00:56:21] Nepal...

[00:56:22] Is that...

[00:56:23] A place that you think we've...

[00:56:25] Sometimes neglected...

[00:56:26] And...

[00:56:27] Despite...

[00:56:28] Very very common culture...

[00:56:30] We've allowed a lot of...

[00:56:31] Um...

[00:56:32] Anti...

[00:56:33] India sentiments...

[00:56:34] And...

[00:56:35] Political...

[00:56:36] Issues...

[00:56:37] Coming between...

[00:56:38] Very very...

[00:56:39] Possibly...

[00:56:40] A very good friend...

[00:56:42] Two...

[00:56:43] Three things have happened in...

[00:56:44] Nepal...

[00:56:45] I think...

[00:56:46] One is...

[00:56:47] We were...

[00:56:48] We were very arrogant with them...

[00:56:50] In the beginning...

[00:56:53] And...

[00:56:54] You know...

[00:56:55] Treating them...

[00:56:57] With...

[00:56:58] Not contempt...

[00:56:59] But...

[00:57:01] Indifference...

[00:57:02] And...

[00:57:03] Doing...

[00:57:03] Thing like...

[00:57:05] Imposing...

[00:57:06] Sanctions on them...

[00:57:08] Remember...

[00:57:09] I think it was...

[00:57:10] Rajiv Gandhi's time...

[00:57:12] They wanted to buy something from China...

[00:57:15] And we imposed an embargo...

[00:57:17] Right?

[00:57:19] Stopped...

[00:57:20] And...

[00:57:21] Nepal was dependent only on...

[00:57:23] Asked for food...

[00:57:25] You don't do that to a small neighbour...

[00:57:27] You find other ways of...

[00:57:29] Solving his...

[00:57:30] You don't want him to buy those weapons...

[00:57:31] Yeah...

[00:57:32] That's...

[00:57:33] That's...

[00:57:33] Not something you want to do...

[00:57:35] That's...

[00:57:35] I agree there...

[00:57:36] But...

[00:57:36] This is...

[00:57:38] You know...

[00:57:39] People remember this...

[00:57:40] Because the common man gets hurt...

[00:57:43] I've always said...

[00:57:44] In every case...

[00:57:45] That...

[00:57:46] The sanctions that the Americans impose...

[00:57:48] Never give you the benefit...

[00:57:50] Because it's only hurting the common man in that country...

[00:57:55] It's not hurting the government...

[00:57:58] Government is quite happy...

[00:57:59] They'll make money...

[00:58:00] They'll be imported...

[00:58:01] And...

[00:58:02] Send it off with subsidies...

[00:58:03] Whatever they will do...

[00:58:04] But they will do it...

[00:58:05] It's the common man that gets hurt...

[00:58:07] And he remembers that...

[00:58:11] And...

[00:58:11] Being a poor country...

[00:58:13] The Chinese being cleverer...

[00:58:16] They encouraged Marxism...

[00:58:17] It caught on...

[00:58:21] And it became...

[00:58:22] Quite a cult...

[00:58:24] To be a communist in Nepal...

[00:58:29] So we got communism...

[00:58:31] We got this...

[00:58:32] Big brother...

[00:58:35] Attitude...

[00:58:36] The Chinese have been more subtle about it...

[00:58:39] Although they're not going to let them loose...

[00:58:41] On economic or financial matters...

[00:58:43] When that push comes to shove...

[00:58:47] So they are...

[00:58:49] They are the only Hindu kingdom...

[00:58:51] And we should have treated it as one...

[00:58:54] Cherished it...

[00:58:55] Nurtured it...

[00:58:57] Let it become big...

[00:59:02] Because...

[00:59:02] Our democracy...

[00:59:07] That...

[00:59:08] That...

[00:59:09] Zoom...

[00:59:09] That...

[00:59:09] We must have...

[00:59:10] Democracies everywhere...

[00:59:14] Democracies can go...

[00:59:16] Haywire...

[00:59:16] No?

[00:59:19] Yeah...

[00:59:19] There are...

[00:59:20] Always these various interests...

[00:59:22] Vying for power in any particular...

[00:59:24] And it's easy to play these cards...

[00:59:26] The other chap will take it...

[00:59:27] And say...

[00:59:27] You won't...

[00:59:28] I'll give you 10 more scholarships...

[00:59:30] I'll give you that...

[00:59:31] And then...

[00:59:33] Bit by bit...

[00:59:34] It goes...

[00:59:35] When Prime Minister Modi came to power...

[00:59:37] I think one of the first...

[00:59:38] Trips he made...

[00:59:39] Externally was...

[00:59:40] For...

[00:59:41] Pashpatinath...

[00:59:42] Mandir...

[00:59:42] We gave some grants to the temple...

[00:59:44] That's where they're so...

[00:59:46] Okay...

[00:59:46] Moving beyond...

[00:59:47] Just the region...

[00:59:48] There's just so much...

[00:59:49] Happening everywhere else...

[00:59:51] Across the world as well...

[00:59:52] Let me start with the US...

[00:59:54] Do you think that...

[00:59:55] The US is a declining super power?

[00:59:57] What do you see...

[00:59:59] Happen...

[00:59:59] In the next 5-10 years?

[01:00:02] I think you ought to wait for my next book...

[01:00:04] Ha ha ha...

[01:00:07] No...

[01:00:08] It's still...

[01:00:08] Can you give us a little bit of a...

[01:00:10] Like a...

[01:00:10] I...

[01:00:11] I do say that the US is...

[01:00:13] Not what it was...

[01:00:16] In 1950...

[01:00:17] Let's say...

[01:00:19] It is not what it was in 1989...

[01:00:22] Culturally we can...

[01:00:23] Paradoxically it has lost most of its standing...

[01:00:27] After Russia collapsed...

[01:00:32] You don't have an enemy...

[01:00:33] Ha ha...

[01:00:34] So not sharp enough...

[01:00:35] Yeah...

[01:00:36] You...

[01:00:36] Super power must have an enemy to thrive...

[01:00:40] Right...

[01:00:41] If you don't have an enemy...

[01:00:42] What do you do?

[01:00:44] Hmm...

[01:00:45] Stretching itself too thin...

[01:00:47] Yeah...

[01:00:47] Stretch yourself to glory and...

[01:00:49] Rule yourselves...

[01:00:50] Imaginary fights here and there...

[01:00:55] Culturally we...

[01:00:57] Sorry...

[01:00:58] One more thing...

[01:00:59] A superpower...

[01:01:02] Maybe every power...

[01:01:04] You get carried away by your own...

[01:01:07] Dialogue...

[01:01:07] Ha ha...

[01:01:07] About yourself...

[01:01:08] You drink your own Kool-Aid...

[01:01:10] Ha...

[01:01:10] You think you are the...

[01:01:12] God's...

[01:01:14] God's chosen...

[01:01:15] Ha...

[01:01:16] God's favourite country...

[01:01:18] And you underestimate the other fellow...

[01:01:24] Right...

[01:01:24] God...

[01:01:24] We can take care of them...

[01:01:26] We got twenty divisions...

[01:01:27] We got this...

[01:01:28] We got this bomb...

[01:01:29] We got that...

[01:01:30] It doesn't work...

[01:01:31] Particularly with the Russians...

[01:01:33] Who've shown time again...

[01:01:35] That you can't defeat us...

[01:01:38] We may not win all battles...

[01:01:40] But you can't defeat us...

[01:01:43] Napoleon couldn't...

[01:01:44] Hitler couldn't...

[01:01:46] And the Americans won't be able to...

[01:01:51] So...

[01:01:51] They are now...

[01:01:53] Stuck with the Ukraine...

[01:01:56] I don't see Ukraine winning...

[01:01:59] What do you think the end game is from that?

[01:02:01] Sorry?

[01:02:01] What do you think the end game is...

[01:02:03] With the...

[01:02:03] With the war there?

[01:02:05] Yes...

[01:02:05] We will find another war...

[01:02:08] Right...

[01:02:08] Another cause...

[01:02:09] Another cause...

[01:02:10] This will...

[01:02:11] Get shelved off...

[01:02:13] Put into...

[01:02:13] On the black...

[01:02:14] Back burner...

[01:02:16] And we find another...

[01:02:18] Location for another war...

[01:02:20] Which will be just as...

[01:02:24] Necessary for the American interest...

[01:02:27] American interest...

[01:02:30] Sell more weapons...

[01:02:31] Remain wealthy...

[01:02:34] So all of this...

[01:02:35] Is to...

[01:02:35] Is for the industrial complex basically...

[01:02:39] They will make money...

[01:02:41] They are already there in Ukraine...

[01:02:43] Blackrock and others have gone there...

[01:02:46] Buying off things...

[01:02:48] Or...

[01:02:48] Setting up industry...

[01:02:50] The money will...

[01:02:51] Go to Blackrock accounts...

[01:02:53] Or the company's accounts...

[01:02:54] They not come to the Ukrainian...

[01:02:56] But they just get that building...

[01:02:57] Or get a...

[01:02:59] School...

[01:03:00] The money...

[01:03:01] Go back to America...

[01:03:04] First you give money...

[01:03:05] So that you can have...

[01:03:06] The weaponry used...

[01:03:08] When the weapons dry out...

[01:03:10] You build new weapons...

[01:03:12] When you...

[01:03:13] Then you do reconstruction...

[01:03:16] And you make money...

[01:03:18] There was a very nice article...

[01:03:20] By a chap called William Fuff...

[01:03:22] He wrote in 19...

[01:03:24] 95 I think...

[01:03:27] Somewhere...

[01:03:27] That time...

[01:03:28] He says...

[01:03:29] The Americans have two departments...

[01:03:32] Department of Destruction...

[01:03:34] And Department of Construction...

[01:03:38] Pentagon destroys...

[01:03:39] State...

[01:03:41] Reconstructs...

[01:03:42] Both times...

[01:03:43] The Americans gain...

[01:03:46] I don't know whether that's...

[01:03:47] That's true or not...

[01:03:48] But it sounds very...

[01:03:50] Very plausible...

[01:03:51] To me...

[01:03:52] So over the last...

[01:03:54] 5-10 years...

[01:03:55] We keep hearing of this...

[01:03:56] Term called...

[01:03:57] The Deep State...

[01:03:58] Right...

[01:03:58] I think Trump has...

[01:03:59] Popularized it...

[01:04:00] And then of course...

[01:04:01] Quite a few commentators...

[01:04:02] Right now...

[01:04:03] Seem to use that...

[01:04:04] Phrase quite...

[01:04:05] Colloquially...

[01:04:06] In conversation...

[01:04:07] Yeah...

[01:04:07] Gary...

[01:04:07] Gary...

[01:04:08] Gary...

[01:04:10] So...

[01:04:12] Do you think that...

[01:04:13] There is that conception...

[01:04:14] Of a Deep State...

[01:04:15] I mean...

[01:04:15] There is that...

[01:04:16] One...

[01:04:17] The people in the shadows...

[01:04:19] Sort of orchestrating...

[01:04:20] Everything...

[01:04:21] And it's a...

[01:04:21] Government beyond...

[01:04:22] Government as such...

[01:04:23] I mean...

[01:04:23] Do you think there is such a thing?

[01:04:24] I think there are...

[01:04:27] A lot of vested interests...

[01:04:29] In the government...

[01:04:30] In the United States...

[01:04:32] And in other countries...

[01:04:33] Similar patterns...

[01:04:34] But smaller ones...

[01:04:38] You see...

[01:04:39] The Americans have a very nice...

[01:04:41] System of governance...

[01:04:43] I am today...

[01:04:44] In the...

[01:04:45] Chief of...

[01:04:46] I am an ambassador in...

[01:04:50] Moscow...

[01:04:50] Tomorrow...

[01:04:51] I am Director...

[01:04:52] CIA...

[01:04:53] After I retire...

[01:04:54] I will become...

[01:04:54] Joint...

[01:04:55] Some...

[01:04:55] Think tank...

[01:04:56] Then I will go into...

[01:04:57] The corporate world...

[01:04:59] Be an MD of some company...

[01:05:01] Which is feeding into the system...

[01:05:03] And then I will...

[01:05:04] Quit that...

[01:05:04] And then the next government comes...

[01:05:06] I am back in government...

[01:05:09] There are lots of these guys...

[01:05:11] Lot of them...

[01:05:13] Who...

[01:05:14] Who perpetually...

[01:05:15] In the levers of power...

[01:05:17] So I don't think there is a...

[01:05:21] An address to the deep state...

[01:05:23] Or a location to the deep state...

[01:05:26] There is a mindset...

[01:05:30] Control karna to...

[01:05:31] Aise karna...

[01:05:34] You know...

[01:05:35] Where is the money?

[01:05:37] Where is the power?

[01:05:40] What's in it for me?

[01:05:43] Or us?

[01:05:44] So it goes...

[01:05:45] In circles...

[01:05:48] Right...

[01:05:48] So there is a strategic intent...

[01:05:50] Behind all of these...

[01:05:51] Strategic intent...

[01:05:52] They have...

[01:05:53] Decided...

[01:05:53] The council on foreign relations...

[01:05:55] Is considered to be the...

[01:05:58] State...

[01:05:59] Second State Department...

[01:06:00] They say...

[01:06:00] Or the State Department...

[01:06:01] Of the Wall Street...

[01:06:03] So they...

[01:06:03] They all...

[01:06:05] Mesh in very nicely...

[01:06:08] So I have to ask you this...

[01:06:10] Do you think...

[01:06:11] Any of these...

[01:06:12] Matching...

[01:06:13] You know...

[01:06:14] These different agencies...

[01:06:15] And what not...

[01:06:15] I mean...

[01:06:16] Do you think they are behind...

[01:06:17] Some of these...

[01:06:18] Assassination attempts...

[01:06:19] On Trump...

[01:06:21] On Trump...

[01:06:22] Potentially?

[01:06:23] I don't know...

[01:06:24] I don't know...

[01:06:25] Really I don't know...

[01:06:27] I think it would be very foolish...

[01:06:29] If they were just doing this...

[01:06:31] Yeah...

[01:06:31] And not succeeding...

[01:06:32] I mean...

[01:06:33] Do it properly...

[01:06:34] Otherwise...

[01:06:35] What is this?

[01:06:36] Amateurish ways of doing it...

[01:06:39] So I don't think...

[01:06:41] They would...

[01:06:43] But in America...

[01:06:44] Every guy...

[01:06:45] Roams around with a gun...

[01:06:46] And...

[01:06:46] They have pot shots...

[01:06:48] Right...

[01:06:48] But you don't have to actually...

[01:06:50] Like...

[01:06:50] Construct a...

[01:06:50] A detailed plan...

[01:06:52] As such...

[01:06:52] Right...

[01:06:52] I mean...

[01:06:52] You could turn a blind eye...

[01:06:53] Which...

[01:06:54] Which I think...

[01:06:54] A lot of people are saying...

[01:06:56] Is what happened...

[01:06:56] In the first assassination attempt...

[01:06:58] Where...

[01:06:59] You know...

[01:06:59] There was a...

[01:07:00] Line of sight...

[01:07:01] With a shooter...

[01:07:01] But...

[01:07:02] Everyone was told to...

[01:07:03] Kind of hold off...

[01:07:04] Until after...

[01:07:05] Right...

[01:07:06] And then he was shot immediately...

[01:07:07] Yeah...

[01:07:08] Right...

[01:07:08] I don't know...

[01:07:10] What...

[01:07:10] What was the game...

[01:07:11] That they are playing...

[01:07:13] It's just...

[01:07:15] Keeps interest alive...

[01:07:17] In...

[01:07:18] In the election...

[01:07:20] Campaign...

[01:07:21] Maybe he was...

[01:07:22] Doing it...

[01:07:23] To get popularity...

[01:07:25] I don't know...

[01:07:26] Right...

[01:07:27] So we see...

[01:07:28] A massive alliance...

[01:07:30] Emerging...

[01:07:30] Which is...

[01:07:31] The...

[01:07:32] China thing...

[01:07:33] You know...

[01:07:33] Velina...

[01:07:34] Who you spoke to...

[01:07:35] On the podcast...

[01:07:35] Earlier...

[01:07:36] She calls it...

[01:07:36] Dragon Bear...

[01:07:37] Right...

[01:07:37] Where...

[01:07:38] Russia is...

[01:07:39] More closer...

[01:07:40] To...

[01:07:40] China...

[01:07:40] Right...

[01:07:41] And...

[01:07:41] They have...

[01:07:42] Sort of...

[01:07:42] Become...

[01:07:43] I...

[01:07:44] Won't say...

[01:07:44] Co-dependent...

[01:07:45] But...

[01:07:45] At least...

[01:07:45] Exchanging...

[01:07:45] Value...

[01:07:46] So...

[01:07:47] What do you think...

[01:07:48] That...

[01:07:49] Will...

[01:07:49] Have...

[01:07:50] As an impact...

[01:07:50] To the rest of the world...

[01:07:53] If...

[01:07:53] If...

[01:07:54] Russia can hold out...

[01:07:55] In Ukraine...

[01:07:56] Without...

[01:07:57] Too much of...

[01:07:59] Degradation...

[01:08:17] Of...

[01:08:19] London...

[01:08:20] Look at...

[01:08:20] Berlin...

[01:08:21] One...

[01:08:22] Rape per hour...

[01:08:24] Yes...

[01:08:25] This is what's going on...

[01:08:26] And...

[01:08:26] And...

[01:08:27] You have all these...

[01:08:29] Fellows...

[01:08:30] Blocking traffic...

[01:08:31] On Oxford Street...

[01:08:32] And...

[01:08:33] Doing their...

[01:08:34] Namaz...

[01:08:34] Or...

[01:08:35] Muharram...

[01:08:36] To...

[01:08:37] This isn't...

[01:08:41] Poland...

[01:08:42] All safe...

[01:08:43] No...

[01:08:44] Nothing...

[01:08:45] Czechoslovakia...

[01:08:46] All these smaller countries...

[01:08:48] They're...

[01:08:48] Looking after themselves...

[01:08:50] So...

[01:08:52] This...

[01:08:53] Woke...

[01:08:54] Life...

[01:08:55] And this...

[01:08:55] We must...

[01:08:56] Look after the immigrant...

[01:09:09] He...

[01:09:10] A...

[01:09:13] Islamic scholar...

[01:09:15] They'd gone to a conclave in the Vatican...

[01:09:18] And there he told one of the pastors...

[01:09:22] The...

[01:09:22] Vatican hierarchy...

[01:09:24] I don't know...

[01:09:24] He said,

[01:09:25] By your democracy we shall come to you...

[01:09:28] By our religion we shall control you...

[01:09:32] Dominate you...

[01:09:34] That's happening...

[01:09:37] Russians are safe...

[01:09:38] In that sense...

[01:09:41] A Russia-China alliance...

[01:09:44] With...

[01:09:44] Russia with all the resources that it...

[01:09:46] Natural resources...

[01:09:48] It has...

[01:09:49] And with the Arctic now opening out...

[01:09:54] It can still become...

[01:09:55] A source of supply of gas...

[01:09:58] To all of Europe...

[01:10:01] Because the American gas is going to be more expensive...

[01:10:04] And this chap will undercut the Americans...

[01:10:07] So...

[01:10:08] A Russia-China...

[01:10:10] Alliance...

[01:10:12] Will be...

[01:10:13] A hugely...

[01:10:14] Successful alliance...

[01:10:16] Let's not compare the weapons that these guys might hold...

[01:10:19] Which may be...

[01:10:20] Not as good as the Americans...

[01:10:23] But so what?

[01:10:26] The American superiority is not enough to conquer them...

[01:10:32] Why doesn't Europe grow a spine?

[01:10:34] I mean...

[01:10:35] You know...

[01:10:36] They destroy the Nord Stream pipeline...

[01:10:37] And they don't do anything about it...

[01:10:38] They don't do anything about it...

[01:10:39] Right...

[01:10:40] There is all of this mass immigration...

[01:10:42] Which clearly the locals don't want...

[01:10:44] But somehow it continues to happen...

[01:10:46] Right...

[01:10:47] Who...

[01:10:47] Okay...

[01:10:48] Let's look at it like this...

[01:10:50] Whose interest is it...

[01:10:52] To let Europe crumble?

[01:10:56] America?

[01:10:58] No...

[01:10:59] So...

[01:11:00] Isn't this chaos?

[01:11:03] Engineer...

[01:11:08] Why do you want that...

[01:11:10] Ukraine battle to continue?

[01:11:17] Because the American...

[01:11:18] The Russians are quite ready to talk peace...

[01:11:24] But they don't want it...

[01:11:26] Right from the time of the Minsk...

[01:11:28] Minsk agreements...

[01:11:30] One and two...

[01:11:32] The...

[01:11:32] Americans have not let...

[01:11:35] Ukraine run their policy...

[01:11:40] And remember...

[01:11:42] In...

[01:11:43] Soon after the Cold War...

[01:11:45] Was over...

[01:11:46] Collapse of Russia...

[01:11:48] Soviet Union...

[01:11:50] William Baker...

[01:11:51] The Secretary of State...

[01:11:53] Assured the...

[01:11:55] Russians...

[01:11:55] The Russians...

[01:11:57] The...

[01:11:57] NATO shall not move an inch eastward...

[01:12:03] Inch...

[01:12:03] And look at them now...

[01:12:04] They don't even talk about it...

[01:12:07] Oh...

[01:12:08] That was another context...

[01:12:10] Blah blah blah...

[01:12:15] Putin told them...

[01:12:16] Several times...

[01:12:18] Don't...

[01:12:19] Don't do Ukraine...

[01:12:21] William Burns...

[01:12:23] Ambassador...

[01:12:24] Moscow...

[01:12:24] He wrote a letter...

[01:12:26] Or a telegram...

[01:12:26] To...

[01:12:28] To Washington...

[01:12:31] Ukraine...

[01:12:31] Is a...

[01:12:31] Niat...

[01:12:32] Niat...

[01:12:36] Ni...

[01:12:39] And now...

[01:12:39] You don't know how to solve it...

[01:12:42] Because...

[01:12:43] Laws of face...

[01:12:46] So...

[01:12:47] Status quo will continue...

[01:12:48] On that front...

[01:12:49] They will come...

[01:12:51] They will all...

[01:12:51] They will come to some agreement...

[01:12:53] As...

[01:12:53] Government...

[01:12:54] Change...

[01:12:54] Onay...

[01:12:57] Right...

[01:12:57] So...

[01:12:58] Sadly...

[01:12:58] That's not the only major war...

[01:13:00] That's...

[01:13:00] Offered right now...

[01:13:01] We also have the Israel-Palestine...

[01:13:02] War as well...

[01:13:03] That's a big one...

[01:13:04] That's a big...

[01:13:05] Big one...

[01:13:05] Yeah...

[01:13:06] I'm surprised that the Iranians...

[01:13:07] Have not done anything yet...

[01:13:10] Is it...

[01:13:12] Is it something huge...

[01:13:14] They are planning...

[01:13:14] Or is it...

[01:13:15] That they're just paper tigers...

[01:13:18] Hmm...

[01:13:18] Let the Hezbollah die...

[01:13:20] Let the Hamas die...

[01:13:21] And we'll just take...

[01:13:23] Happily in...

[01:13:23] Iran...

[01:13:25] Because if they don't do anything...

[01:13:27] Then they are going to be...

[01:13:29] Seen as losers...

[01:13:30] By default...

[01:13:33] But is it the distance...

[01:13:34] That separates them...

[01:13:35] I mean...

[01:13:35] Do you think that...

[01:13:36] It would have been...

[01:13:37] Different if they were...

[01:13:38] Perhaps like...

[01:13:39] No...

[01:13:40] How did they...

[01:13:41] Equip...

[01:13:42] Both these countries...

[01:13:43] Hamas and Hezbollah...

[01:13:44] How...

[01:13:45] How did they manage that?

[01:13:46] But they're proxies...

[01:13:47] Basically...

[01:13:48] They're proxies...

[01:13:49] They're...

[01:13:49] They're...

[01:13:50] Iranian proxies...

[01:13:51] Hamas was actually...

[01:13:53] A Sunni outfit...

[01:13:55] And...

[01:13:56] Won the elections in Palestine...

[01:14:01] Taza...

[01:14:02] So...

[01:14:02] And the...

[01:14:03] Israelis had left it...

[01:14:05] Gone...

[01:14:06] But no...

[01:14:06] We got to destroy Israel...

[01:14:08] Is the motto...

[01:14:10] To Carlos...

[01:14:11] To Carlos...

[01:14:11] Roshan if I may...

[01:14:13] Keren...

[01:14:13] I have a question...

[01:14:14] From one of the viewers...

[01:14:17] And...

[01:14:19] They...

[01:14:20] Is...

[01:14:20] There is also...

[01:14:21] Some sort of idea that...

[01:14:22] Because Hamas...

[01:14:23] Is a Sunni outfit...

[01:14:24] And is protected by Qatar...

[01:14:27] And...

[01:14:28] Hezbollah...

[01:14:29] Shia outfit...

[01:14:30] It seems like...

[01:14:32] Israel has more of a go ahead...

[01:14:34] On...

[01:14:36] Hezbollah...

[01:14:37] Whereas...

[01:14:38] At points...

[01:14:39] It might seem like...

[01:14:40] Hamas is...

[01:14:41] In...

[01:14:42] American protectorate territory...

[01:14:44] Even though...

[01:14:45] Anything that Israel is doing...

[01:14:46] Is against American...

[01:14:47] Interests at this point...

[01:14:49] Do you think...

[01:14:50] That there is...

[01:14:50] Any modicum of truth...

[01:14:52] To this?

[01:14:53] I don't know...

[01:14:54] Could...

[01:14:54] It sounds plausible...

[01:14:56] That Hamas...

[01:14:56] With Qatar money coming in...

[01:14:59] Why even...

[01:15:02] Israelis...

[01:15:02] Have contributed some money...

[01:15:04] To...

[01:15:05] Via Qatar...

[01:15:06] To the...

[01:15:06] Yes...

[01:15:06] Hamas...

[01:15:07] So...

[01:15:08] There could be...

[01:15:11] A...

[01:15:11] Belief that...

[01:15:12] Hezbollah...

[01:15:14] That you should get...

[01:15:15] And...

[01:15:16] But I...

[01:15:16] I thought that...

[01:15:17] Hamas was...

[01:15:21] Why was Hamas...

[01:15:22] Allowed to attack like this?

[01:15:25] I just...

[01:15:26] I mean...

[01:15:27] I've asked this question...

[01:15:28] Again and again to myself...

[01:15:29] Nobody gives me...

[01:15:30] As an answer really...

[01:15:32] Would you frame it...

[01:15:33] How could...

[01:15:34] A country...

[01:15:35] Which has...

[01:15:35] So well protected...

[01:15:37] So well protected...

[01:15:39] Didn't get...

[01:15:40] Know this?

[01:15:41] Yeah...

[01:15:41] You frame it as...

[01:15:42] Allowed to attack...

[01:15:44] Yeah...

[01:15:45] So...

[01:15:45] It's a very interesting framing...

[01:15:49] Yeah...

[01:15:49] I guess that...

[01:15:54] So...

[01:15:54] What was the actual motive?

[01:15:56] Was it Hamas or Hezbollah?

[01:15:59] I don't even know that now...

[01:16:03] Was it Hezbollah to hitting...

[01:16:04] By hitting Hezbollah...

[01:16:05] You hitting Iran...

[01:16:10] So will that flare up?

[01:16:12] God knows...

[01:16:16] Chaos...

[01:16:18] Yeah...

[01:16:19] Yeah...

[01:16:20] I have a question...

[01:16:21] That sounds very basic...

[01:16:23] And I had neglected to ask it...

[01:16:25] But Thiru from behind the camera...

[01:16:27] Actually...

[01:16:27] Decided that...

[01:16:29] It's a very good question...

[01:16:30] How does the common person...

[01:16:32] Distinguish between...

[01:16:33] Authentic journalism...

[01:16:34] And a media narrative?

[01:16:37] You can't...

[01:16:38] If the man is clever...

[01:16:40] You'll never know...

[01:16:41] That he's selling an agenda...

[01:16:44] And he's got a narrative...

[01:16:46] And...

[01:16:47] But you can only know...

[01:16:48] Not at first sight...

[01:16:50] But you can know...

[01:16:51] The way he writes...

[01:16:52] What he writes...

[01:16:52] On...

[01:16:53] How he covers a particular incident...

[01:16:57] How he covers a particular story...

[01:16:59] That you heard it differently...

[01:17:00] And you're getting a different angle...

[01:17:02] He's selling...

[01:17:03] A particular line...

[01:17:04] He's selling a particular story...

[01:17:09] But...

[01:17:09] One off meeting...

[01:17:10] You will never know...

[01:17:12] You'll have to study the person...

[01:17:14] But do you think...

[01:17:15] These folks in the media...

[01:17:16] Or...

[01:17:17] You know...

[01:17:17] These NGOs...

[01:17:18] So on and so forth...

[01:17:19] I mean...

[01:17:20] Do you think they're all ideologically driven...

[01:17:22] Or do you think there's...

[01:17:23] An element of...

[01:17:24] Many of them start off...

[01:17:26] With ideals...

[01:17:29] Then they become ideologues...

[01:17:32] Hmm...

[01:17:32] Because...

[01:17:33] The power of money...

[01:17:35] Controls...

[01:17:36] What you do...

[01:17:39] If the...

[01:17:40] Donor says...

[01:17:41] Sorry...

[01:17:42] Kalsa nahi milega kuch...

[01:17:44] Unless you...

[01:17:46] Take...

[01:17:47] Protest...

[01:17:48] March...

[01:17:49] Or...

[01:17:50] Sell...

[01:17:50] A particular line...

[01:17:51] Or write a particular...

[01:17:52] Article...

[01:17:53] Which you're not...

[01:17:54] Agreeing with...

[01:17:55] But you have to do it...

[01:17:56] Because...

[01:17:57] That is the policy...

[01:17:59] Then eventually...

[01:18:00] They take over...

[01:18:01] That's how they take over...

[01:18:02] No...

[01:18:03] First...

[01:18:05] Entice...

[01:18:05] Give money...

[01:18:06] Give long rope...

[01:18:07] And then...

[01:18:08] Suddenly...

[01:18:08] Pull back...

[01:18:09] Start pulling back...

[01:18:13] So this is something...

[01:18:13] You've written about extensively...

[01:18:15] But considering...

[01:18:17] That Nazi propaganda...

[01:18:18] Has been so...

[01:18:19] Well covered...

[01:18:20] And...

[01:18:21] We know that...

[01:18:23] In communist nations...

[01:18:25] Media...

[01:18:25] Narratives...

[01:18:26] All stories...

[01:18:27] Are incredibly...

[01:18:29] Well controlled...

[01:18:29] In imperialist nations...

[01:18:31] Like...

[01:18:31] Britain...

[01:18:32] All of these stories...

[01:18:33] Are so well controlled...

[01:18:35] Why is it...

[01:18:36] Still not...

[01:18:38] Priority...

[01:18:39] For...

[01:18:39] Other nations...

[01:18:40] Especially...

[01:18:41] Nations like ours...

[01:18:43] I'm not sure that...

[01:18:44] At this point...

[01:18:44] We can be calling ourselves...

[01:18:46] Particularly weak...

[01:18:47] But...

[01:18:48] Other nations...

[01:18:49] Such as ours...

[01:18:50] Do not consider...

[01:18:51] It's enough of a...

[01:18:52] Game changer...

[01:18:54] Because...

[01:18:56] Even regime changes...

[01:18:57] Can be...

[01:18:58] Organized through that...

[01:18:59] As we've seen...

[01:19:00] In the...

[01:19:00] Spring revolution...

[01:19:02] In Arab nations...

[01:19:03] We've seen in the...

[01:19:03] Color revolutions...

[01:19:04] In Ukraine...

[01:19:06] So...

[01:19:06] Why is it not...

[01:19:08] Given priority to you?

[01:19:09] No...

[01:19:09] I don't think...

[01:19:10] It's a lack of priority...

[01:19:11] It's a lack of means...

[01:19:12] To spread your word...

[01:19:17] Americans...

[01:19:18] Spread their word...

[01:19:20] Through Bollywood...

[01:19:22] Hollywood...

[01:19:22] They do it through their newspapers...

[01:19:24] Which they say...

[01:19:25] Are the best in the world...

[01:19:27] Because...

[01:19:27] They can say so...

[01:19:28] And their voice...

[01:19:29] Reaches everywhere...

[01:19:30] How...

[01:19:31] Was Ukraine...

[01:19:32] How has Ukraine war...

[01:19:33] Been covered...

[01:19:34] All these months...

[01:19:35] In the Indian newspapers?

[01:19:37] With a completely...

[01:19:39] American...

[01:19:39] Tilt...

[01:19:39] Completely American...

[01:19:40] So that's their reach...

[01:19:42] Do we have a reach like that?

[01:19:44] Do you think...

[01:19:44] Hindustan Times articles...

[01:19:45] Will appear in...

[01:19:47] As...

[01:19:47] On the op-ed page...

[01:19:48] Or on page 8...

[01:19:49] Of international news...

[01:19:51] Of New York Times?

[01:19:53] No...

[01:19:54] Unless it is a negative story...

[01:20:00] You know...

[01:20:01] We don't have the means...

[01:20:03] Where is our...

[01:20:03] Who listens...

[01:20:04] Do you think...

[01:20:05] People in United States...

[01:20:07] Listen to...

[01:20:09] Republic TV...

[01:20:10] Watch Republic TV...

[01:20:11] And...

[01:20:12] Times Now...

[01:20:14] And so on...

[01:20:14] So forth...

[01:20:16] Maybe the Indian diaspora does...

[01:20:18] But not the American...

[01:20:20] We get CNN here...

[01:20:23] We get...

[01:20:24] France TV...

[01:20:26] We get...

[01:20:29] BBC...

[01:20:29] We get all of them here...

[01:20:31] And then...

[01:20:32] They want us to stop Russia today...

[01:20:38] I'm just...

[01:20:39] Just to play...

[01:20:40] I'm not actually playing...

[01:20:41] The devil's advocate...

[01:20:41] I think there's a lack of political will as well...

[01:20:44] Because mainstream media...

[01:20:45] And...

[01:20:45] Especially after...

[01:20:47] Covid...

[01:20:47] We've seen a rise with Republic TV...

[01:20:50] And other Indian channels...

[01:20:52] We on...

[01:20:52] Getting an international reach...

[01:20:54] Reaching out to...

[01:20:55] The best in international...

[01:20:58] Scholarship sometimes...

[01:20:59] Getting them here...

[01:21:00] So...

[01:21:01] At least slowly...

[01:21:02] There is some international reach...

[01:21:04] Yes...

[01:21:04] I would...

[01:21:04] I would grant you that...

[01:21:06] Except that...

[01:21:06] That is a voice heard here...

[01:21:10] Is that the same voice heard in...

[01:21:13] Say Paris or New York?

[01:21:15] Would that clip be seen...

[01:21:18] In the drawing rooms of...

[01:21:20] Fifth Avenue, New York?

[01:21:23] Could it be seen...

[01:21:25] If there were a political drive...

[01:21:27] Behind it...

[01:21:27] Just because...

[01:21:28] I do think that...

[01:21:30] Who will give the political drive?

[01:21:32] You mean here?

[01:21:33] Yeah...

[01:21:33] Or any...

[01:21:34] Any nationalistic...

[01:21:35] Corporate drive...

[01:21:36] Or any sort of...

[01:21:37] Combined will power...

[01:21:39] Is there something that is lacking...

[01:21:41] Because...

[01:21:41] Even in...

[01:21:42] Would they...

[01:21:43] Even contemplate...

[01:21:44] Or think...

[01:21:45] That they should have...

[01:21:47] Our relations with India...

[01:21:48] So good...

[01:21:49] Such a powerful country...

[01:21:50] We should have their channel...

[01:21:51] On our systems...

[01:21:54] On our platforms...

[01:21:55] Just as a follow up to that...

[01:21:56] Right...

[01:21:56] I mean...

[01:21:57] It might be...

[01:21:58] It might cost us a few tens...

[01:22:00] If not...

[01:22:01] Some hundreds of crores...

[01:22:02] To sort of influence opinion...

[01:22:04] And if not...

[01:22:04] Like New York and Paris...

[01:22:06] And so on...

[01:22:06] But...

[01:22:07] Let's say...

[01:22:07] Dhaka and Kathmandu...

[01:22:09] And Colombo...

[01:22:10] And so on...

[01:22:10] Right...

[01:22:10] So...

[01:22:10] So we should be able to influence...

[01:22:12] Opinion positively...

[01:22:14] In our region at least...

[01:22:15] They all...

[01:22:16] Watch...

[01:22:16] I believe...

[01:22:17] Pakistan TV...

[01:22:18] In...

[01:22:19] All neighboring countries...

[01:22:20] They watch Indian channel...

[01:22:24] That's...

[01:22:24] That's what I'm...

[01:22:25] I don't know whether they watch news channels...

[01:22:26] But they watch all the entertainment channels...

[01:22:29] Well that's influence in a way...

[01:22:31] But it's not political influence...

[01:22:34] It's conditioning the mind that...

[01:22:37] But...

[01:22:38] We cannot...

[01:22:39] If we do not have this in the West...

[01:22:41] We're not going to be able to sell ourselves...

[01:22:44] Sell our product...

[01:22:48] Capacity...

[01:22:49] They're...

[01:22:51] They're...

[01:22:51] 90% of...

[01:22:54] American...

[01:22:55] News channels...

[01:22:58] Media...

[01:22:59] Is controlled by 6 or 7 groups...

[01:23:03] So they say they're free...

[01:23:05] But they're free in a different way...

[01:23:10] So...

[01:23:10] This is...

[01:23:11] This is what I was asking...

[01:23:13] Because those are...

[01:23:14] Private owned...

[01:23:15] Groups...

[01:23:16] And...

[01:23:17] We have private owned groups...

[01:23:18] But there is no cohesion...

[01:23:20] When it comes to...

[01:23:23] Messaging...

[01:23:23] That is...

[01:23:26] Completely...

[01:23:26] Nationalistic...

[01:23:28] Despite being from...

[01:23:29] The nation...

[01:23:30] That's something that's lacking...

[01:23:33] And frankly...

[01:23:33] They also play to their domestic audience...

[01:23:35] The elite that read it here...

[01:23:37] That are less than 1%...

[01:23:39] The New York Times...

[01:23:40] The Washington Post...

[01:23:42] They read...

[01:23:43] By their own domestic audiences...

[01:23:45] To probably build consensus...

[01:23:47] For the wars that...

[01:23:48] They're fighting for...

[01:23:49] The military industrial complex...

[01:23:50] That is getting wealthier...

[01:23:52] But...

[01:23:53] When it comes to India...

[01:23:56] Can we not have a cohesive messaging...

[01:23:59] When it comes to matters that impact...

[01:24:01] Foreign policy at least...

[01:24:02] For example...

[01:24:02] The Khalistan issue...

[01:24:03] The issue of...

[01:24:06] Kashmir...

[01:24:07] Even today being discussed...

[01:24:09] As a bargaining chip...

[01:24:11] Rather than...

[01:24:11] As a part of...

[01:24:14] We make a first rate...

[01:24:16] TV production...

[01:24:18] Serial...

[01:24:19] On Kashmir...

[01:24:20] Just...

[01:24:20] Sort of...

[01:24:21] Arguing...

[01:24:22] The point...

[01:24:23] Asking...

[01:24:24] So you've done it...

[01:24:26] We've done a...

[01:24:27] Pulitzer Prize winner...

[01:24:28] Or whatever you would call it...

[01:24:30] Brookings Award...

[01:24:32] Worthy of that...

[01:24:35] Will it be seen in the United States...

[01:24:36] Will it be able to...

[01:24:37] Will we be able to sell it there...

[01:24:42] Who will buy it...

[01:24:43] To put it up on his channel in Houston...

[01:24:47] Or...

[01:24:48] Or...

[01:24:49] San Diego...

[01:24:52] Karidar chahi eh na...

[01:24:56] You can have the diasporas showing it to each other...

[01:24:59] But diaspora toh...

[01:25:00] It is...

[01:25:01] Again...

[01:25:01] Limiting it...

[01:25:02] Not...

[01:25:02] Showing it to the American-American...

[01:25:05] Showing it to the Indian-American...

[01:25:07] Upai kha hai...

[01:25:09] What is the...

[01:25:10] What is the solution...

[01:25:12] Because...

[01:25:12] No...

[01:25:12] You just have to keep trying...

[01:25:14] One day it'll click...

[01:25:17] Because the corporate...

[01:25:18] Because they came into a vacuum here...

[01:25:23] We had...

[01:25:24] Doordarshan...

[01:25:24] And we had...

[01:25:25] Sometime...

[01:25:26] Then we went public...

[01:25:28] Private...

[01:25:29] Star TV for sometime...

[01:25:30] Then Zee...

[01:25:31] Or NDTV came in...

[01:25:33] We began...

[01:25:34] And then suddenly we said...

[01:25:35] Al Jazeera bhi aajau...

[01:25:37] Yeh bhi aajau...

[01:25:37] We allowed them...

[01:25:39] Without allowing your own channels to flourish properly...

[01:25:43] You allowed these chaps to come in also...

[01:25:46] Not that I watch BBC...

[01:25:48] I don't watch BBC...

[01:25:49] I don't watch CNN...

[01:25:50] I don't enjoy watching them...

[01:25:51] It doesn't make any sense to me...

[01:25:53] But...

[01:25:54] That's how it is...

[01:25:56] We were a vacuum...

[01:25:57] Fertile ground...

[01:25:59] To...

[01:26:00] And they had a motive...

[01:26:02] To convert...

[01:26:06] The reporting is...

[01:26:09] Almost...

[01:26:10] Aggressively...

[01:26:11] Grigious...

[01:26:11] It's...

[01:26:12] Horrific...

[01:26:13] Because...

[01:26:13] In my last video...

[01:26:14] I just...

[01:26:17] Mentioned...

[01:26:17] A statistic...

[01:26:18] Even if you go to the sources that journalistic...

[01:26:22] Media...

[01:26:23] Media uses...

[01:26:25] Statista...

[01:26:26] Which is...

[01:26:26] You know...

[01:26:26] One of the most used...

[01:26:29] Platforms for data...

[01:26:30] Which one?

[01:26:31] They cite...

[01:26:31] Statista...

[01:26:32] Is a platform where they have a lot of statistics...

[01:26:34] Okay...

[01:26:34] They use...

[01:26:36] They actually cite...

[01:26:37] 40 rapes...

[01:26:38] Per 100,000...

[01:26:39] When it comes to the US...

[01:26:42] Sounds like...

[01:26:43] A number...

[01:26:45] We don't even know how large or small it is...

[01:26:47] Because there's no comparison...

[01:26:48] When it comes to India...

[01:26:51] All the Google searches will yield no results...

[01:26:54] As to a 100,000...

[01:26:55] Per 100,000 rate...

[01:26:57] There is no rate...

[01:26:57] There is only a total given in a population of 1.4 billion...

[01:27:01] And I had to calculate it...

[01:27:03] The rate per 100,000 is 2.2...

[01:27:06] In the same year...

[01:27:07] 2022...

[01:27:08] It's come down to 1.8...

[01:27:09] But...

[01:27:10] The rates of...

[01:27:13] Rape...

[01:27:14] And...

[01:27:14] Counterpoint is that...

[01:27:16] It is underreported in India...

[01:27:17] According to American statistics...

[01:27:19] There are 63 to 70% of underreporting...

[01:27:22] In the US...

[01:27:24] So...

[01:27:24] I can guarantee about 100% that our rates of underreporting are much lower than that...

[01:27:30] So there is no way that the American idea of women's safety in India...

[01:27:36] Or as a high-trust society...

[01:27:38] Is, you know, based on data...

[01:27:40] It is not based on truth...

[01:27:42] It's on perceptions...

[01:27:43] But also that is the perception that sort of...

[01:27:46] You know, flows down the line to India...

[01:27:48] Because a lot of us are English educated due to our colonial past...

[01:27:52] Without a cohesive messaging that takes into account...

[01:27:57] A studied approach to reporting on issues...

[01:28:01] How is it possible to...

[01:28:05] Build media...

[01:28:06] Influence narratives...

[01:28:07] And again...

[01:28:08] Is there...

[01:28:10] You know, we can't keep trying one by one...

[01:28:12] What is the solution...

[01:28:14] How many...

[01:28:14] How many of our newspapers have...

[01:28:16] Resident correspondence...

[01:28:19] In the United States...

[01:28:22] In Europe...

[01:28:23] In Russia...

[01:28:25] How many?

[01:28:27] I see only one person reporting for Times of India...

[01:28:31] Chidha and Rajgatth...

[01:28:33] Yeah...

[01:28:33] Nobody else...

[01:28:34] Nobody else...

[01:28:36] We are a huge country...

[01:28:38] We run newspapers...

[01:28:40] Times of India has six front pages...

[01:28:43] As ads...

[01:28:44] Then you get to the front page...

[01:28:46] The headline...

[01:28:48] We get to that...

[01:28:50] After you shuffle through this damn...

[01:28:51] Six pages first...

[01:28:53] You get there...

[01:28:55] But we have no money...

[01:28:57] To...

[01:28:58] Have correspondence...

[01:29:01] In San Francisco...

[01:29:02] San Diego...

[01:29:04] Where...

[01:29:05] A lot of Indians are living...

[01:29:06] They will be your carriers...

[01:29:10] They will carry your news...

[01:29:14] Lack of direction...

[01:29:16] Nobody wants...

[01:29:18] How do you...

[01:29:20] Force...

[01:29:20] Times of India...

[01:29:21] Or...

[01:29:22] Hindustan Times...

[01:29:22] Or any of these newspapers...

[01:29:24] That we will let you do this...

[01:29:25] Unless you have six correspondence...

[01:29:27] In these places...

[01:29:31] And show me what they are saying...

[01:29:33] You must have one in Washington...

[01:29:36] You must have one in New York...

[01:29:40] No...

[01:29:41] They are running...

[01:29:43] The news...

[01:29:46] Reuters...

[01:29:46] And...

[01:29:47] CNN...

[01:29:48] And AFP...

[01:29:50] Nobody else is saying...

[01:29:51] What is happening...

[01:29:54] Why doesn't an Indian correspondent...

[01:29:56] Sitting in...

[01:29:57] New York says...

[01:29:59] This country...

[01:30:00] There is a rape...

[01:30:01] This city...

[01:30:02] There is a rape...

[01:30:02] Every other day...

[01:30:05] And these are the people...

[01:30:07] Let him file that report...

[01:30:10] We will be able to...

[01:30:16] We will be able to...

[01:30:17] Intelligence and...

[01:30:18] Narrative building...

[01:30:19] What is the...

[01:30:20] Overlap here...

[01:30:21] Since...

[01:30:22] You know...

[01:30:23] You have written about it...

[01:30:24] Apart from...

[01:30:25] Please read the book...

[01:30:26] Overlap of intelligence...

[01:30:28] Overlap...

[01:30:29] You know...

[01:30:30] When you want to build narratives...

[01:30:31] You have to do it discreetly...

[01:30:33] You have to do it in a particular direction...

[01:30:36] You can't let it be...

[01:30:37] Hundred minds working on the same theme...

[01:30:39] And giving hundred answers...

[01:30:41] You have got to...

[01:30:41] Focus it...

[01:30:42] Then somebody has to do the channeling...

[01:30:45] Somebody has to put...

[01:30:47] Thing on roller...

[01:30:48] Rollercoaster...

[01:30:49] Or...

[01:30:49] On...

[01:30:49] On...

[01:30:50] Trails...

[01:30:51] Let it run...

[01:30:52] In a particular direction...

[01:30:54] Without getting involved yourself...

[01:30:56] So you establish...

[01:30:58] Like they do...

[01:31:00] Americans...

[01:31:00] Amnesty International...

[01:31:01] Or this and that...

[01:31:03] They are all...

[01:31:03] They all create narratives...

[01:31:09] The...

[01:31:10] Pentagon...

[01:31:10] And...

[01:31:12] The...

[01:31:12] CIA...

[01:31:13] Have resident...

[01:31:15] Struck...

[01:31:16] Within courts...

[01:31:18] Ambassadors...

[01:31:19] In Hollywood...

[01:31:20] Where they tell them...

[01:31:22] If your film is...

[01:31:25] Aesthetically okay...

[01:31:26] Or whether it is factually correct...

[01:31:28] Or...

[01:31:29] This is not how it is done...

[01:31:32] Huh?

[01:31:33] They actually allowed...

[01:31:35] Top Gun...

[01:31:36] To be filmed at one of their...

[01:31:39] Air bases...

[01:31:41] With a genuine...

[01:31:46] Aircraft...

[01:31:46] You know...

[01:31:46] To make it real...

[01:31:49] And what do we produce?

[01:31:53] Patan...

[01:31:54] This is part of the ultimate goal...

[01:31:56] By the way...

[01:31:56] For the audience...

[01:32:00] Yeah...

[01:32:01] It is there...

[01:32:03] You know...

[01:32:04] Till you sell your own story...

[01:32:05] Nobody is going to bother about you...

[01:32:07] And it's not easy...

[01:32:08] Going to be selling stories...

[01:32:09] Because they are already...

[01:32:10] Entrenched interests there...

[01:32:12] And we are doing nothing...

[01:32:13] To challenge it...

[01:32:17] With regards to...

[01:32:19] Entrenching a story...

[01:32:21] There are certain...

[01:32:22] Terminologies that...

[01:32:24] Come into play...

[01:32:25] That allow...

[01:32:26] Sort of...

[01:32:29] Whitewashing...

[01:32:30] Justifying of things...

[01:32:31] When it comes to the American...

[01:32:33] Support for terrorism...

[01:32:35] From across the border...

[01:32:36] Even for ourselves...

[01:32:37] Even I have written about...

[01:32:38] You know...

[01:32:38] How they have always been called...

[01:32:40] Rebels and militants...

[01:32:41] They were never called terrorists...

[01:32:43] Until...

[01:32:43] No...

[01:32:43] They were never called...

[01:32:44] Gunmen...

[01:32:44] Gunmen...

[01:32:46] Gunmen...

[01:32:47] Militant...

[01:32:48] Yes...

[01:32:49] So that is...

[01:32:49] Or freedom fighters also...

[01:32:51] Freedom fighters...

[01:32:52] Yes...

[01:32:52] They always...

[01:32:53] You know...

[01:32:55] One man's terrorist...

[01:32:57] Is another man's freedom fighter...

[01:32:59] That is how...

[01:32:59] Every death has been justified...

[01:33:01] Including...

[01:33:02] Even in October...

[01:33:04] 7th...

[01:33:04] So...

[01:33:07] What do you think of this...

[01:33:08] Are there like some red lines...

[01:33:10] That should happen...

[01:33:11] When it comes to...

[01:33:12] Journalistic ethics...

[01:33:14] With regards to terminologies...

[01:33:16] And American influence...

[01:33:17] On those terminologies...

[01:33:19] We are not going to be able to change...

[01:33:21] Their terminology...

[01:33:21] Unless we just...

[01:33:22] For our audience...

[01:33:24] We won't change it...

[01:33:25] But the way we cover...

[01:33:26] Our news itself...

[01:33:27] Do you think that...

[01:33:28] The government and the policy...

[01:33:30] And the establishment...

[01:33:30] Can kind of...

[01:33:31] Like...

[01:33:32] If not...

[01:33:33] You know...

[01:33:34] Crack down on somebody...

[01:33:35] Establish...

[01:33:36] Guardrails at least...

[01:33:37] In terms of what...

[01:33:38] They should...

[01:33:39] They should...

[01:33:39] They can be...

[01:33:40] Sort of...

[01:33:40] Code of conduct...

[01:33:42] That...

[01:33:43] You know...

[01:33:43] When a terrorist attacks...

[01:33:45] He is a terrorist...

[01:33:45] He is not...

[01:33:46] He is not...

[01:33:49] Militant...

[01:33:49] He is not...

[01:33:50] Or a...

[01:33:50] Headmaster's son...

[01:33:51] Or something like that...

[01:33:52] Doctor's son...

[01:33:53] Or headmaster's son...

[01:33:54] And...

[01:33:54] You can't go around...

[01:33:55] Jappi-pauing him...

[01:33:56] You...

[01:33:59] These are...

[01:34:02] Personas...

[01:34:02] Non grata...

[01:34:04] And they should be treated like that...

[01:34:07] And...

[01:34:07] Governments should lay down...

[01:34:09] They will be usual...

[01:34:10] Hullabaloo...

[01:34:11] No, no...

[01:34:12] This is all...

[01:34:13] If it's Congress...

[01:34:14] They'll say...

[01:34:14] The Congress is a fraud...

[01:34:15] If the BJP is doing...

[01:34:16] The BJP...

[01:34:17] But you have to make up your mind...

[01:34:18] What you want to do...

[01:34:20] If you are not going to do it yourselves...

[01:34:23] Why do you expect the other chap to do it?

[01:34:25] Why should the BBC do it?

[01:34:28] The BBC turn around tartly and tell you...

[01:34:30] Oh...

[01:34:31] We call...

[01:34:33] Gunmen...

[01:34:33] They'll prove otherwise...

[01:34:36] Cut along the bus...

[01:34:38] So we have to learn to...

[01:34:43] Set the yardstick...

[01:34:47] Ourselves...

[01:34:47] He is a terrorist...

[01:34:50] He is not...

[01:34:52] Nothing else...

[01:34:54] His religion...

[01:34:56] Comes later...

[01:34:57] The first thing...

[01:34:57] Terrorism...

[01:35:01] There's a lot of...

[01:35:02] You've cited...

[01:35:03] Human rights violation...

[01:35:04] Previously...

[01:35:05] So...

[01:35:06] How is it...

[01:35:07] That...

[01:35:07] The narrative has been so twisted...

[01:35:09] That human rights...

[01:35:11] Are...

[01:35:11] Are only of the perpetrator...

[01:35:13] Or not of the victim...

[01:35:15] Is the victim...

[01:35:16] Less human...

[01:35:19] Human rights violations...

[01:35:20] Are usually cited for terrorists...

[01:35:23] It's not cited for their victims...

[01:35:25] No it isn't...

[01:35:27] Yeah...

[01:35:28] Because it suits you to...

[01:35:30] Cite...

[01:35:31] The...

[01:35:32] Human rights of the terrorists...

[01:35:36] It doesn't suit me to...

[01:35:38] At that particular juncture...

[01:35:39] I want to support this movement...

[01:35:41] So that it continues to bother you...

[01:35:43] So I'll say...

[01:35:45] You...

[01:35:45] You're harming this terrorist...

[01:35:47] You're...

[01:35:47] You're...

[01:35:48] Violating human rights...

[01:35:49] By torturing him...

[01:35:50] Et cetera...

[01:35:51] Et cetera...

[01:35:52] And promptly turn around...

[01:35:53] And do the same thing yourself...

[01:35:55] And say...

[01:35:55] It's fine...

[01:35:58] That time...

[01:35:59] The human rights are not on issue...

[01:36:00] And...

[01:36:01] You fill up Guantanamo...

[01:36:03] And...

[01:36:03] Abu Ghraib...

[01:36:05] With...

[01:36:06] All these...

[01:36:09] Torture cells...

[01:36:11] So it's all...

[01:36:12] Matter of...

[01:36:14] There's no heart principle...

[01:36:16] That is...

[01:36:17] Not to be broken...

[01:36:18] These are all matters of convenience...

[01:36:23] Your narratives are also matters of convenience...

[01:36:27] You...

[01:36:28] You suddenly found that...

[01:36:30] Alta...

[01:36:31] Saddam Hussein had...

[01:36:34] WMD...

[01:36:35] And he had...

[01:36:36] Al-Qaeda...

[01:36:36] And you proved it...

[01:36:37] You had that...

[01:36:39] You had that...

[01:36:40] Colin Powell...

[01:36:41] Showing that...

[01:36:42] Little file...

[01:36:43] In UNC...

[01:36:45] And they said...

[01:36:45] There were 16 words that were used...

[01:36:47] Et cetera...

[01:36:47] Et cetera...

[01:36:48] You created a narrative...

[01:36:49] And fell into a trap...

[01:36:53] I mean...

[01:36:53] They might have...

[01:36:54] Killed Saddam Hussein in the end...

[01:36:56] But what did they get?

[01:36:57] A Shia government...

[01:37:00] Supported by Iran...

[01:37:05] And then...

[01:37:05] You had...

[01:37:08] Mr...

[01:37:08] Bush announcing...

[01:37:10] Mission Accomplished...

[01:37:12] Actually...

[01:37:12] They say the mission accomplished was not about...

[01:37:14] Military victory...

[01:37:15] It is about...

[01:37:16] Returning the...

[01:37:19] Returning to the petrodollar...

[01:37:21] Because...

[01:37:22] Saddam Hussein was quietly swinging to the Euro dollar...

[01:37:27] Euro...

[01:37:28] Petro...

[01:37:29] Scheme...

[01:37:30] So they wanted to...

[01:37:31] Bring him back...

[01:37:32] And that's mission accomplished...

[01:37:34] For all the oil companies...

[01:37:38] So...

[01:37:39] Narratives are essential...

[01:37:41] Narratives have to be made...

[01:37:42] But then...

[01:37:43] You have...

[01:37:44] How do you create...

[01:37:48] A situation where...

[01:37:50] People become receptive to your story...

[01:37:53] It has to be made attractive...

[01:37:56] It shouldn't be boring...

[01:37:58] It should be something...

[01:37:59] He is interested in knowing...

[01:38:01] The first thing you have to do...

[01:38:03] In any story is that...

[01:38:04] I should be interested in learning that...

[01:38:07] About that...

[01:38:08] You can't force that story on me...

[01:38:10] If there is no interest in...

[01:38:12] In...

[01:38:13] In me...

[01:38:13] Or in myself...

[01:38:14] Then why do you want to sell that story?

[01:38:16] I am not interested...

[01:38:17] I won't watch it...

[01:38:20] There's actually a research paper by...

[01:38:23] I think Dr. Nidhi...

[01:38:26] And...

[01:38:27] Professor Ramesh Rau...

[01:38:28] About stand-up comedy...

[01:38:30] Being used to...

[01:38:31] Present a...

[01:38:32] Certain view of...

[01:38:33] The Hindu religion...

[01:38:35] There's a lot of content...

[01:38:37] On social media...

[01:38:38] When it...

[01:38:39] Is you know...

[01:38:40] Influencer driven...

[01:38:42] It's not just comedy...

[01:38:44] But generally there's a...

[01:38:45] There's a whole industry of...

[01:38:47] YouTube channel...

[01:38:49] That makes a lot of money...

[01:38:51] That...

[01:38:52] Slowly put on...

[01:38:53] Like you said...

[01:38:53] They have to be interested...

[01:38:55] Then there's food channels...

[01:38:56] That...

[01:38:56] Yes...

[01:38:57] Discuss certain things...

[01:38:58] So...

[01:38:59] I think...

[01:38:59] I think that's very true...

[01:39:00] But...

[01:39:01] If we look at...

[01:39:03] American media...

[01:39:04] It's plainly controlled...

[01:39:05] There is no interest driven thing...

[01:39:17] No...

[01:39:17] It is entertaining...

[01:39:19] But...

[01:39:20] Apart from...

[01:39:20] I like him...

[01:39:21] Yeah...

[01:39:21] Sometimes he goes off...

[01:39:23] Then you know...

[01:39:24] He has Amy Vax...

[01:39:25] Come on his channel...

[01:39:26] But yes...

[01:39:27] He's done well to interview Putin...

[01:39:29] At least...

[01:39:30] And provide a...

[01:39:31] An opposite perspective...

[01:39:32] But mainstream media...

[01:39:33] Is plainly controlled...

[01:39:35] It's not really catering to interests...

[01:39:37] It's part of the deep state...

[01:39:39] No...

[01:39:39] Right...

[01:39:39] So is that...

[01:39:40] They're not...

[01:39:41] They're not controlled...

[01:39:42] It's...

[01:39:42] It's self-censorship...

[01:39:48] In...

[01:39:49] News...

[01:39:49] That is not...

[01:39:51] Anti-Indian...

[01:39:52] I will give a news...

[01:39:53] That is anti-Indian...

[01:39:55] Or snide one...

[01:39:57] But...

[01:39:57] Not merely pertaining to India...

[01:39:59] But in general...

[01:40:00] When it comes to...

[01:40:01] MSNBC...

[01:40:02] And CNN...

[01:40:03] And everybody...

[01:40:03] Their heads...

[01:40:04] They literally just take people...

[01:40:06] Who've worked at the White House...

[01:40:07] I think...

[01:40:08] Jen Psaki was the last one...

[01:40:09] To go into MSNBC...

[01:40:11] And then become an anchor...

[01:40:12] So these are people...

[01:40:13] Who circulate...

[01:40:14] Like you mentioned...

[01:40:14] You know...

[01:40:15] You work in the White House...

[01:40:16] And then you go and become...

[01:40:17] Part of one company...

[01:40:18] Dick Cheney...

[01:40:18] He's...

[01:40:19] Halliburton...

[01:40:20] Of course...

[01:40:20] Yeah...

[01:40:21] Famous...

[01:40:22] Yeah...

[01:40:22] But...

[01:40:22] That's MSNBC...

[01:40:23] What about...

[01:40:23] This...

[01:40:25] Defense Secretary...

[01:40:27] The Defense Secretary...

[01:40:28] At the time...

[01:40:29] Cheney was Vice President...

[01:40:33] He was...

[01:40:33] He was...

[01:40:34] He was...

[01:40:34] He was...

[01:40:34] He was the boss...

[01:40:35] That...

[01:40:36] Rumsfeld...

[01:40:37] Sorry...

[01:40:37] He was...

[01:40:38] He was the boss...

[01:40:39] Of...

[01:40:40] Pharma Company...

[01:40:42] He refused to quit...

[01:40:44] And he did...

[01:40:46] Take decision...

[01:40:47] That helped...

[01:40:48] That pharma company...

[01:40:49] So then...

[01:40:51] These companies...

[01:40:52] Are plowing money to...

[01:40:55] Smaller media organizations...

[01:40:57] That influence larger ones...

[01:40:58] Then the larger ones...

[01:40:59] Are led by people from...

[01:41:00] So there is no way...

[01:41:01] In a...

[01:41:02] In a true democracy...

[01:41:04] And I...

[01:41:04] I mean...

[01:41:05] I was just chaotic enough...

[01:41:06] To be a truer democracy...

[01:41:08] To truly...

[01:41:09] Bring out...

[01:41:10] A single narrative then...

[01:41:13] We'll...

[01:41:14] I don't know...

[01:41:14] When...

[01:41:15] How we will be able to...

[01:41:17] Position ourselves...

[01:41:19] It's...

[01:41:20] It's...

[01:41:20] It's like a climb like this...

[01:41:22] Steep one...

[01:41:24] So...

[01:41:25] About narratives...

[01:41:26] When it comes to...

[01:41:28] The ongoing genocide...

[01:41:30] Of Bangladeshi Hindus...

[01:41:32] The past genocide...

[01:41:33] Of Yazidis...

[01:41:36] The...

[01:41:36] Exodus...

[01:41:37] Of the Kashmiri...

[01:41:38] Hindus...

[01:41:39] All of this has happened...

[01:41:40] And now we have the Bangladeshis...

[01:41:42] Going through it again...

[01:41:43] And it is very carefully...

[01:41:45] Covered up...

[01:41:45] By...

[01:41:46] Media narratives...

[01:41:47] And despite...

[01:41:48] Dr. Jaishankar...

[01:41:49] Actually bringing it up...

[01:41:50] This has...

[01:41:52] Deliberately not...

[01:41:53] Gotten any attention...

[01:41:55] So...

[01:41:56] Is that...

[01:41:57] Part of the narrative...

[01:41:59] Is active suppression...

[01:42:00] Part of the narrative...

[01:42:01] Yeah...

[01:42:01] Not to tell a story...

[01:42:03] Is also part of narrative...

[01:42:05] You know...

[01:42:06] I just...

[01:42:07] Put it aside...

[01:42:08] It didn't happen...

[01:42:11] That's it...

[01:42:13] But if it were...

[01:42:15] Another country...

[01:42:16] And nothing happened...

[01:42:17] Maybe two people were killed...

[01:42:19] And they'll...

[01:42:19] Make a story out of it...

[01:42:22] So...

[01:42:23] Narratives don't have to be based...

[01:42:26] Necessarily on truth...

[01:42:30] You might have...

[01:42:32] An element of truth...

[01:42:34] It's ideal if you have a lot of truth...

[01:42:37] But you can...

[01:42:38] Sell a story of...

[01:42:39] Attacking Iraq with...

[01:42:41] WMD...

[01:42:41] Who had WMDs...

[01:42:42] When he had nothing...

[01:42:45] So...

[01:42:46] It is not important to have...

[01:42:48] Narrative...

[01:42:49] Stories...

[01:42:50] Truth...

[01:42:52] But...

[01:42:53] More dangerous...

[01:42:54] I think...

[01:42:54] Far more dangerous...

[01:42:56] Is to sweep it away...

[01:42:59] Because that is also...

[01:43:00] A different kind of dishonesty...

[01:43:06] But...

[01:43:06] I suppose...

[01:43:07] These kinds of things are not really of...

[01:43:09] Great importance in...

[01:43:11] Statecraft...

[01:43:13] That you...

[01:43:14] What you don't want...

[01:43:15] People to know...

[01:43:16] We won't tell you...

[01:43:17] It's...

[01:43:18] That's what I said...

[01:43:19] It is...

[01:43:19] Quite often...

[01:43:20] Self-censored...

[01:43:22] They know this is taboo...

[01:43:24] This...

[01:43:24] We won't do this story...

[01:43:28] Last couple of questions...

[01:43:30] Before we wind up...

[01:43:31] Thank you again for...

[01:43:32] Being so...

[01:43:33] Being so kind with your time...

[01:43:34] I mean...

[01:43:35] We are almost 45 minutes past...

[01:43:36] The time we budgeted...

[01:43:38] With so much of chaos...

[01:43:40] As you say...

[01:43:41] Happening across the world...

[01:43:43] What are you...

[01:43:44] Most optimistic for...

[01:43:45] Going forward?

[01:43:47] For us?

[01:43:48] Yeah?

[01:43:48] For India...

[01:43:49] I think...

[01:43:52] Although this...

[01:43:53] Our rise has come at a time...

[01:43:55] When there is a lot of chaos...

[01:43:58] I think...

[01:43:59] Is it because of the chaos?

[01:44:01] I mean...

[01:44:01] Do you think that...

[01:44:02] Let's say the...

[01:44:03] The China plus one policy...

[01:44:04] That a lot of folks...

[01:44:05] Have been pursuing...

[01:44:07] To diversify the supply chains...

[01:44:08] That wouldn't have happened...

[01:44:09] If...

[01:44:10] Covid had not happened...

[01:44:11] Yeah...

[01:44:11] If Covid had not happened...

[01:44:12] Getting cheap Russian oil...

[01:44:13] For example...

[01:44:14] Right?

[01:44:14] All of those things...

[01:44:16] All those things have combined...

[01:44:18] To help us...

[01:44:18] Get that...

[01:44:20] Impeence...

[01:44:20] Jump...

[01:44:21] Huh?

[01:44:22] And...

[01:44:22] Now...

[01:44:23] We should...

[01:44:24] Not lose this...

[01:44:26] If you lose this...

[01:44:27] Then we are finished...

[01:44:28] If you don't lose this...

[01:44:29] If we carry on...

[01:44:30] Building on it...

[01:44:31] I think we will come out...

[01:44:33] Pretty much on top...

[01:44:35] And we will get what we want to get...

[01:44:37] To...

[01:44:38] To...

[01:44:39] Number 3...

[01:44:40] Economy...

[01:44:40] By...

[01:44:41] 2027...

[01:44:42] Or whatever...

[01:44:44] It is...

[01:44:45] It is...

[01:44:46] Surprising that...

[01:44:46] When there is debris around you...

[01:44:48] When you are rising...

[01:44:50] Like a phoenix...

[01:44:51] It's...

[01:44:51] It's nice...

[01:44:52] It's a good feeling...

[01:44:53] I think...

[01:44:55] I personally have a lot of confidence...

[01:44:57] That...

[01:44:58] The Indians...

[01:44:59] Ingenuity to...

[01:45:01] To make the best of situations...

[01:45:04] Alongside with the ingenuity...

[01:45:06] To make the worst of...

[01:45:07] Some situations...

[01:45:10] But...

[01:45:10] That's okay...

[01:45:11] That's...

[01:45:12] That we are human beings...

[01:45:13] But we have...

[01:45:14] We have...

[01:45:14] We have a lot of talent...

[01:45:16] We should keep that talent here...

[01:45:18] We are sending it out...

[01:45:21] All the bright guys go out...

[01:45:25] Some of the bright guys only...

[01:45:26] Who can't avoid to go out...

[01:45:27] Stay by bank...

[01:45:29] Right...

[01:45:29] But I do see some sort of a...

[01:45:32] Reverse...

[01:45:32] Brain drain happening...

[01:45:33] At the margin...

[01:45:34] I do...

[01:45:34] I do see people coming back...

[01:45:36] Yeah...

[01:45:36] In fact...

[01:45:36] Even where we live here...

[01:45:38] There are 2 or 3 families...

[01:45:39] Who have come back...

[01:45:41] That...

[01:45:41] We want to be...

[01:45:42] We have seen enough...

[01:45:44] That we want to be...

[01:45:45] Back here...

[01:45:47] So that's a positive thing...

[01:45:48] And I think...

[01:45:50] Unless we are positive and...

[01:45:52] Optimistic about ourselves...

[01:45:55] We won't get further...

[01:45:58] All we need is...

[01:46:03] A government...

[01:46:04] People get a government...

[01:46:05] They deserve...

[01:46:06] No?

[01:46:07] They also get an opposition...

[01:46:09] They deserve...

[01:46:12] So we've got one...

[01:46:15] You have to have an opposition...

[01:46:17] That things for India...

[01:46:18] Yeah...

[01:46:19] Is that a...

[01:46:19] Is that a worrying trend actually...

[01:46:21] I mean because...

[01:46:22] Yeah...

[01:46:22] It's all...

[01:46:23] You...

[01:46:24] Aisa kardeya...

[01:46:24] Usna...

[01:46:25] O kya...

[01:46:25] Ye ki...

[01:46:26] What is your idea man?

[01:46:27] What do you want?

[01:46:30] What do you see India?

[01:46:32] It's just a caste census...

[01:46:36] You give 800...

[01:46:37] Ketana...

[01:46:38] 8000 rupees...

[01:46:39] Kata kat...

[01:46:39] Kata kat...

[01:46:40] Is that economy?

[01:46:44] So you have to have a vision...

[01:46:47] That...

[01:46:49] The...

[01:46:49] Party must give...

[01:46:50] What is the party's...

[01:46:52] The leading opposition party's vision for India?

[01:46:55] Sub-nationalism...

[01:46:56] Tell me...

[01:46:57] Yeah...

[01:46:58] Sub-nationalism...

[01:47:01] Is that...

[01:47:02] Is that...

[01:47:03] Is that for India?

[01:47:05] So you go there and say...

[01:47:07] You can't...

[01:47:07] Yeah...

[01:47:08] This chap can't wear a turban in India...

[01:47:14] Say that...

[01:47:15] Even if it were true...

[01:47:17] It isn't damn true...

[01:47:18] But he says that...

[01:47:20] Then he says that to an audience...

[01:47:21] That will buy it...

[01:47:22] Then process it...

[01:47:23] Then bring it back to us...

[01:47:24] And then we'll believe it...

[01:47:27] I don't know what he does...

[01:47:28] Yeah...

[01:47:29] So...

[01:47:30] As you mentioned...

[01:47:31] I think...

[01:47:32] You know...

[01:47:33] The...

[01:47:34] Quotes...

[01:47:34] Right...

[01:47:34] I mean...

[01:47:35] Tata Praja...

[01:47:36] Yata Raja...

[01:47:37] Or something...

[01:47:38] I always get it like...

[01:47:39] Backwards...

[01:47:39] Sometimes...

[01:47:40] Yeah...

[01:47:40] So...

[01:47:45] Exactly...

[01:47:45] Right...

[01:47:46] So...