255: How Corruption Is Undermining India's Growth | Mohandas Pai (Chairman, Aarin Capital)

[00:00:00] We have not been able to create good paying jobs for the large mass of people. The big challenge is 80% of all the jobs that are created pay less than 20,000.

[00:00:08] Lal Gandhi is not giving his personal money, it's the money of the taxpayers. Where should the money be used? The money should be invested first in youth education.

[00:00:19] The education budget in the last two years has not gone up and we call ourselves an advanced take. Why is he not giving scholarship for young people to go to college and train them up? They will get jobs.

[00:00:27] Bombay left us with about 22-23,000 crore surplus. Next year Sidramaya made 4,000 crore revenue deficit.

[00:00:34] And Sidramaya as a Chief Minister and the Finance Minister earlier was the person who said we must cut waste in government, we must do everything else and we must tighten the budget and he made Kannataka into a revenue surplus state.

[00:00:45] Now he's done. Now he's calling about social justice for everybody. Where are social justice when he was in power for 10 years? I'm a big man, I've been elected, I shall do it for everybody. It's not their money.

[00:00:56] And you look at all the MLS of all parties, see the net worth last time in the election, five years before five years, they're all done extremely well. Where did the money come from? There's no respect for taxpayers. Out of 8 crore people filing returns, only 2 and a half, 3 crore people pay income tax. The biggest failure of Indian democracy in 75 years is the lack of justice.

[00:01:26] A very good day everyone. Welcome back to Bharatwarta. My name is Sharon and I'll be hosting this conversation with a man who needs no introduction and it's an absolute privilege to talk to him every time, Mr. Mohandas Pai.

[00:01:37] Sir, thank you so much for agreeing to do this.

[00:01:39] Thank you.

[00:01:40] We are at a juncture where there are too many things happening in this country and in one year we've been through enough shocks, I think, politically, economically and otherwise.

[00:01:50] But let me draw your attention to the most recent happening in the country, which is the conclusion of the Maharashtra and the Jharkhand elections.

[00:01:59] And what we are seeing off late is that the freebie culture has deeply entrenched itself.

[00:02:05] And it's not the first time. I mean, we've seen the Jailalitas and the Karunanidis do this in the 90s as well.

[00:02:11] Now that we know that the freebie culture is not going anywhere and even a pro-market party like the BJP has come to embrace it.

[00:02:21] How are we to deal with, you know, the rising burden on the middle class and the increasing taxation?

[00:02:28] Well, my view is very simple on this. We are a $4 trillion economy this year.

[00:02:35] Out of 1.4 billion people, 1 billion leave on less than $1,000 a year.

[00:02:40] They're very poor. 400 million leave on $6,000 a year.

[00:02:45] That's $2.4 trillion plus one, $3.4 trillion.

[00:02:49] So, you know, it could be higher, but I'm just giving some numbers based on 24 data.

[00:02:53] Yeah.

[00:02:54] 25 will be close to $4 trillion.

[00:02:56] Out of this $400 million, 40 crores, 10 crores earn $10,000 a year, growing at 8%.

[00:03:02] And the balance, $300 earn $5,000 a year.

[00:03:07] They're the big main consuming class.

[00:03:11] And our PPP for PPP multiple is about 3.5.

[00:03:17] So, you want to compare us to the advanced countries.

[00:03:20] Then you must multiply that by 3.5.

[00:03:22] So, we've got 10 crores people with a per capita income in PPP of $35,000.

[00:03:26] That's very good.

[00:03:27] Yeah.

[00:03:28] It's like three or four countries being together in India.

[00:03:31] Right.

[00:03:31] So, all sections in society have grown.

[00:03:33] People at the bottom have grown.

[00:03:34] Everybody has grown.

[00:03:35] But there are severe challenges in the increasing distance between each one of them.

[00:03:42] Let me give you some data.

[00:03:44] Per capita income of Bihar with 13 crore people is $75,000.

[00:03:48] Per capita income of UP with 23 crore people is about $95,000.

[00:03:53] India's per capita income last year is $2,11,000.

[00:03:57] If you remove off UP and Bihar, per capita income for the whole of the country will be $2,55,000, $2,60,000.

[00:04:04] So, when you talk about per capita income, it's an average.

[00:04:07] But the disparity in per capita income is very high.

[00:04:11] Kandantaka's per capita income in 24-25 will be close to maybe $4.25,000.

[00:04:17] So, what is Bihar with $75,000, $79,000 and Kandantaka with $4.25,000?

[00:04:23] The distance is very wide.

[00:04:25] That too primarily because of Bangalore.

[00:04:25] Yes.

[00:04:26] And within Kandantaka, Bangalore's per capita income is $15,000.

[00:04:31] The GDP of Kandantaka this year will be $325,000,000.

[00:04:34] Bangalore is about $180,000,000.

[00:04:36] And I think if we take 1.2 crore people, that's $15,000.

[00:04:42] $15,000 is $12,13,000.

[00:04:45] So, you look at Bihar, you look at Bangalore, you see the difference.

[00:04:49] And why is the difference?

[00:04:50] Because they have developed very differently.

[00:04:53] Kandantaka has developed very differently.

[00:04:54] And other states have developed very differently.

[00:04:57] And each state is developing very, very differently.

[00:04:59] But the fact remains, over the last 20 years, a large number of people have seen their income grow from very small levels.

[00:05:07] Yeah.

[00:05:07] So, not that there's been no growth.

[00:05:09] But their aspiration has grown much faster.

[00:05:11] Correct.

[00:05:12] And that aspiration gap that is growing, because they're seeing somebody else grow very fast.

[00:05:17] Somebody else buy cars.

[00:05:18] Somebody else buy cars.

[00:05:19] Somebody else go abroad.

[00:05:20] Somebody else send their children to, you know, in good colleges or overseas, etc.

[00:05:25] And they're all asking, what about me?

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] So, that is a big thing, because we have not been able to create good paying jobs for a large mass of people.

[00:05:35] We did a study with Quest, and there's something called the India Employment Report.

[00:05:39] In that, we found India is producing about 1.6 crore jobs a year.

[00:05:44] So, anybody saying jobless growth is talking through his head, he doesn't understand.

[00:05:48] And, you know, a lot of people are in Delhi and in politics who talk about jobless growth, no jobs.

[00:05:53] They're just not looking at data.

[00:05:54] Because everywhere in this country, in the south, you don't get people for jobs.

[00:05:58] Yeah.

[00:05:58] The big challenge is 80% of all the jobs that are created pay less than 20,000 rupees.

[00:06:03] Now, in the state of Karnataka, Barring, if you take the top 10 districts, you can't live on 20,000 rupees.

[00:06:09] Correct.

[00:06:09] In Bangaloo, you can't live on 20,000 rupees.

[00:06:12] Right?

[00:06:12] So, people aspiration in many cities is for an income level of 50,000, 60,000.

[00:06:18] That means good quality jobs have to come.

[00:06:20] In many other backward areas, the aspiration 10,000, 15,000.

[00:06:24] So, the aspiration gap has come.

[00:06:26] And politicians have to respond to this aspiration gap.

[00:06:30] That's why we see all the political parties give DBT to men, which I support in a way.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:38] In fact, before the last election, I had written an article to say, Prime Minister Modi should pick up the 10 crore woman and get free gas.

[00:06:48] Or subsidize gas and give them 2,000 rupees a month.

[00:06:51] Because in a household, giving money to the woman means the money will be spent on food, education, and for the benefit of children.

[00:07:00] Correct.

[00:07:00] So, give it to the woman.

[00:07:02] Make them part of the economy so they get money.

[00:07:05] Have their self-help groups and improve their economic status.

[00:07:08] And then you'll see a change in society.

[00:07:10] You're preparing women to participate fully in the democratic process because in another three years, we'll have 33% reservation for them in parliament.

[00:07:18] There's 50% reservation.

[00:07:19] More and more girls are going to college and graduating.

[00:07:22] So, there's a sea chain in the social composition of this country.

[00:07:25] And we have to accelerate.

[00:07:26] So, this is coming.

[00:07:27] But while the Phoebe culture or whatever DBT culture is something that we have to do and we are quite okay.

[00:07:35] Because you see, the union government and state government spend more than 100 lakh crores a year.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:41] Taxation between two of them is close to about 65 lakh crores.

[00:07:46] That's very good.

[00:07:47] And it's growing in double digits.

[00:07:50] So, there is a lot of money being available.

[00:07:52] It's a question of prioritizing to tackle poverty.

[00:07:55] To tackle things.

[00:07:56] And there's a very good way because you can cut waste.

[00:07:58] You can cut many things and the states are doing it.

[00:08:01] But the key thing is you have to pick the people to whom you must keep.

[00:08:04] That's why we have suggested the people who get this gas to the poorest of the poor.

[00:08:08] It's a scheme that has worked well for five, six years.

[00:08:11] 10 crore people all across the country.

[00:08:13] It has been vetted, cleaned up and everything.

[00:08:15] Right?

[00:08:15] And give it to them.

[00:08:17] So, I think in Kandataka, I think 1.3 crore women are getting.

[00:08:20] And there are no 1.3 crore households who are poor.

[00:08:24] Kandataka's population is 6.7 crore.

[00:08:26] Okay?

[00:08:27] 40% is urban.

[00:08:29] 40% urban means, let's say, 2.7 crore.

[00:08:32] Balance is rural.

[00:08:33] All right?

[00:08:35] And Bangalore's population is 1.2 crore.

[00:08:38] Bangalore is not poor.

[00:08:39] Maybe 10% of people in Bangalore are poor.

[00:08:41] Correct.

[00:08:41] And especially those who don't want to work.

[00:08:43] Those who want to beg.

[00:08:44] Even beggars make more money than many people in Bangalore.

[00:08:47] You can see how rich they are.

[00:08:48] So, I think in the whole of Kandataka, if you take the population, you'll find that there are 2 crore young people below the age of 21.

[00:08:58] 1 crore are women.

[00:08:59] Yeah.

[00:08:59] Okay?

[00:09:00] So, remove them from 6.7 crore.

[00:09:03] That means 4.3 crore is the population who are children.

[00:09:08] Correct.

[00:09:09] Okay?

[00:09:09] Not in the workforce.

[00:09:10] And then out of this 4.7 crore, 2.3 crore are women.

[00:09:14] You give 1.3 crore, 2,000.

[00:09:16] What is the percentage?

[00:09:18] 2.3 crore, 1.3 crore.

[00:09:21] That means it's about 60%.

[00:09:23] They're very empowered.

[00:09:23] Are 60% people poor in this state that you need money?

[00:09:27] 20% people are poor.

[00:09:28] 30% are poor.

[00:09:30] Certainly, people above 60 who are not well-off deserve a pension.

[00:09:34] Women must give them.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:35] They worked hard all their lives.

[00:09:36] And women who are the poverty must be given.

[00:09:38] But Sidramayi gives indiscriminately.

[00:09:40] He's very proud.

[00:09:41] You know, he says that I'm guaranteed.

[00:09:45] This is my guarantee.

[00:09:46] He's not giving his personal money.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:47] Lal Gandhi is not giving his personal money.

[00:09:49] It's the money of the taxpayers.

[00:09:51] Correct.

[00:09:51] Where should the money be used?

[00:09:52] The money should be invested first in youth education.

[00:09:56] The education budget in the last two years has not gone up.

[00:09:59] In real terms, post-inflation has come down.

[00:10:03] Today, the gross enrollment rate for young people in 18 to 23,

[00:10:07] for the southern states of Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Kandataka,

[00:10:12] Kandataka is the lowest at 36.

[00:10:15] It's the lowest.

[00:10:16] And we call ourselves an advanced tech.

[00:10:18] Why is he not giving scholarship for young people to go to college and train them up?

[00:10:21] They'll get jobs.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] Bangalore, Kandataka produces 10 lakh jobs a year.

[00:10:27] 10 lakh jobs a year.

[00:10:28] Only about 45-50% is, you know, fulfilled by local country.

[00:10:33] Balance is done by people from outside.

[00:10:35] They come here, they work hard, they do well.

[00:10:37] Nothing wrong with that.

[00:10:38] Why can't you train the own people?

[00:10:39] He's not doing that.

[00:10:40] He's giving freebies.

[00:10:41] And if you look at the budget, in 2023, Bombay left us with about 22,000, 23,000 crore surplus.

[00:10:50] Yeah.

[00:10:51] You know, revenue surplus.

[00:10:52] Yeah.

[00:10:53] Next year, Siddharamai made 4,000 crore revenue deficit.

[00:10:55] Deficit, yeah.

[00:10:56] But the end deficit was more.

[00:10:59] And this year, he's got another 27,000 crore or so deficit.

[00:11:03] That's 45-50,000 crore swing in expenditure.

[00:11:06] And where the money gone, that's gone for freebies.

[00:11:08] So you're borrowing money to give freebies.

[00:11:11] And Siddharamai as a chief minister and a finance minister earlier was the person who said,

[00:11:15] you must cut waste in government.

[00:11:17] You must do everything else.

[00:11:18] And we must tighten the budget.

[00:11:20] And he made Kandataka into a revenue surplus state.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:23] He did it.

[00:11:24] And you're the good finance minister.

[00:11:26] Good chief minister.

[00:11:27] Now he's turned.

[00:11:28] Now he's calling about social justice to everybody.

[00:11:30] Where are social justice when he was in power for 10 years?

[00:11:33] We were poorer then than now.

[00:11:35] Where are social justice?

[00:11:37] So this is all political expediency.

[00:11:38] Look, I'm not against giving DBT to the poor.

[00:11:41] You should do it.

[00:11:42] I support that.

[00:11:43] But quantify the poor, 20-25%.

[00:11:46] And the money that you're given, spend it on the same people for the children education.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:51] Because education is the biggest gift a society can give very young person.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:55] And if you give them good education, improve the standard, give them skill, they'll get a job.

[00:11:59] They'll do well.

[00:12:00] Rest of their life, they'll do well.

[00:12:01] There's no dearth of jobs in Kandataka.

[00:12:04] So I think this is where they go wrong.

[00:12:07] Because they say, I'm giving everybody.

[00:12:08] Because they got this attitude.

[00:12:09] I'm a big man.

[00:12:10] I've been elected.

[00:12:11] I shall do it for everybody.

[00:12:12] It's not their money.

[00:12:13] And you look at all the MLS of all parties.

[00:12:16] See the net worth last time in the election.

[00:12:18] Five years before five years.

[00:12:19] They're all done extremely well.

[00:12:20] Yeah.

[00:12:21] Where did the money come from?

[00:12:22] They're also making money.

[00:12:24] This government is possibly the most corrupt government we have seen.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] We thought the BJP government was corrupt.

[00:12:29] This government has got an ability to do corruption on an industrial scale.

[00:12:36] Correct.

[00:12:37] They got a tariff card everywhere.

[00:12:39] Within one year.

[00:12:40] Water so much, power so much, everything.

[00:12:43] And even for getting permission for house so much.

[00:12:46] They all got tariff card.

[00:12:47] We know all the ministers were making money.

[00:12:49] Some minister making absurdly huge amount of money.

[00:12:52] Thousand, thousand, two hundred crores a year.

[00:12:54] This is absurd.

[00:12:56] And taking the cue from them, the officials are making money.

[00:12:58] Go to any government office.

[00:12:59] See how they treat you.

[00:13:00] When you have elected the Congress, shouldn't they make sure officials are not corrupt?

[00:13:05] Now, if politicians are corrupt and do something, you know, they say that we need money for election.

[00:13:10] Okay.

[00:13:10] There's some truth in it.

[00:13:11] Because people don't give them money.

[00:13:13] But when officials have become corrupt, that is the end of the line.

[00:13:17] They get paid very well.

[00:13:19] They get a pension very well.

[00:13:20] Why should they be corrupt?

[00:13:23] They're extorting money from poor people, from anybody.

[00:13:25] You put a plan for approval.

[00:13:27] The damn software doesn't work.

[00:13:29] Yeah.

[00:13:29] Then on Saturday, they call you to the office and say, upload it.

[00:13:31] There's a person near BDA, I'm told, who's got an office next to the BDA.

[00:13:35] You go to him and pay money, 50,000, 1 lakh for plan to upload.

[00:13:39] This is ridiculous.

[00:13:40] Even as simple as getting a driver's license done.

[00:13:43] They know it, they party to it.

[00:13:44] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Even as simple as getting a driver's license done.

[00:13:47] Today, the software is there, but the software doesn't work when you use it.

[00:13:50] You have to go there.

[00:13:51] There is a legalized way of corruption.

[00:13:52] No, it's deliberately done.

[00:13:54] And I'm told that for the plan approval and all BBMP, the software is done by some small company in Puna.

[00:13:59] Some Benami company.

[00:14:00] They manipulate it.

[00:14:01] We had gone to the commissioner in BBMP to say, we will help you write good software for property tax.

[00:14:08] We found there are three databases of property tax.

[00:14:10] Three people handling it.

[00:14:11] Because each one is making money.

[00:14:13] They don't want to make it into one database.

[00:14:14] Don't want to automate.

[00:14:16] They don't want to automate.

[00:14:17] Because they go make money.

[00:14:19] And the system is so easy.

[00:14:21] You get an occupancy certificate.

[00:14:23] Automatically, tax demand should go up to you.

[00:14:25] It's the very easiest thing to do.

[00:14:26] They don't want to do it.

[00:14:28] This time, particularly in the US election,

[00:14:30] we saw how the Republicans actually took advantage of the male voter frustration that was there.

[00:14:37] All voter frustration.

[00:14:38] Yes.

[00:14:38] But primarily also male because they focused on that.

[00:14:41] Which is why Trump was seen with Joe Rogan and all the, you know, alpha male content creators.

[00:14:46] And that sort of appealed to the younger male voters who traditionally never used to come out and vote.

[00:14:52] Today, you look at Karnataka itself.

[00:14:54] For instance, in one year, there's so much anti-incumency.

[00:14:57] There is so much anger on the streets.

[00:14:58] No, there's anti-incumency because Bombay did not show any performance.

[00:15:00] We met Steve Mr. Bombay.

[00:15:02] We told him do many things.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:03] He was a good man, but did not push his way through.

[00:15:07] When you ask him, he said, no, no, party will not allow us.

[00:15:09] I mean, he had one and a half years to do what he wanted.

[00:15:12] Yeah.

[00:15:13] One and a half years.

[00:15:14] At the end of it, he left accused of 40% corruption, which I'm sure he's not done.

[00:15:19] Because if you have a contract for 100%, if 40% goes, what are you going to do?

[00:15:23] Yeah.

[00:15:23] We know that in BBMP, some contracts are done only on paper.

[00:15:26] Yeah.

[00:15:27] People say that very clearly, right?

[00:15:29] They knock off the money.

[00:15:30] But 40% is too high.

[00:15:32] Now that, you know, liquor association has sent 700 crores bribe against a minister, what happened?

[00:15:38] There is nobody speaking about it.

[00:15:40] Yeah.

[00:15:41] And today in Karnataka, when you go talk to them, everybody's in the take.

[00:15:44] Everybody's sharing this place.

[00:15:46] Both the BJP and the Congress.

[00:15:48] Now the tragedy of this state, this state is the best state in the country.

[00:15:52] The richest state in the country.

[00:15:54] Panglilu is the richest city in India.

[00:15:56] They should do, invest in education, invest in innovation, invest in infrastructure, create jobs for people.

[00:16:01] So people do well.

[00:16:03] Yeah.

[00:16:03] This state has got the money, resources, brains, everything.

[00:16:06] But it's so steeped in corruption.

[00:16:08] It's astonishing how people can stand up in the state and talk about themselves.

[00:16:13] So my question would be that now that women are also being catered to at some point by politicians,

[00:16:20] do you actually sense that rising anger in the average male voter in India?

[00:16:27] And how do we, because I think everybody now that they're going into the working class,

[00:16:30] either they're unemployed or they're unemployed.

[00:16:33] I don't think it's anger as much as frustration.

[00:16:35] Frustration.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:36] It's more frustration than anger.

[00:16:38] Especially with the budget.

[00:16:39] But you know, there's different kind of anger.

[00:16:42] The Hindus are angry.

[00:16:43] They're being made into a minority in this country.

[00:16:45] They're being ill-treated.

[00:16:46] There's too much of Muslim appeasement.

[00:16:47] The Muslims are angry that they feel, you know, sidelined.

[00:16:51] They feel that people are not giving them respect, abusing them.

[00:16:54] So everybody's angry.

[00:16:55] Everybody's got frustration.

[00:16:56] It's a natural thing in a society.

[00:16:58] See, democracy is the system of competitive lobbies.

[00:17:02] Everybody is the lobby.

[00:17:03] There's a farmer lobby.

[00:17:04] There's a woman lobby.

[00:17:05] There's a cash lobby.

[00:17:07] Yeah.

[00:17:07] Okay?

[00:17:08] And there is a landowner's lobby.

[00:17:10] There's an agricultural lobby.

[00:17:11] Everybody is the lobby.

[00:17:13] The job of a politician in a democracy is to make sure they listen to everybody.

[00:17:17] Give something to everybody.

[00:17:19] Keep the hope going.

[00:17:20] Till things improve.

[00:17:21] Things will never improve.

[00:17:22] But they have to keep the hope together.

[00:17:23] That's what they're there for.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:25] When they fail, that is when the anger goes beyond.

[00:17:27] For example, in the last Maharashtra election.

[00:17:30] I think the classic case was what the opposition did.

[00:17:33] Too much of Muslim appeasement.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:35] That Molana giving 19 point program and saying do this and all that is too much.

[00:17:40] And Uddev going against what he stood for and abusing everybody.

[00:17:45] And, you know, 5% votes increasing because I guess RSS came and pulled people from the

[00:17:50] homes to go and vote.

[00:17:51] But it didn't happen in UP.

[00:17:53] Correct.

[00:17:53] So, I think all this came together to create.

[00:17:55] I mean, the results are astonishing.

[00:17:58] The scale of the win by the BJP.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] And the NDA is astonishing.

[00:18:02] It's a case.

[00:18:02] Well, it happened.

[00:18:03] See, today we see a very important thing which Prime Minister Modi is doing.

[00:18:07] The consolidation of the Hindu world.

[00:18:10] Right from 1957, the second election, Congress has created fear in the Muslim community that

[00:18:17] they're the only party which can save them from everybody else because of partition.

[00:18:22] Yeah.

[00:18:23] And broken the Hindu community into various cash, catered to the cash, trying to cobble up

[00:18:28] 30-35%.

[00:18:29] Yeah.

[00:18:29] So, they broke the Hindu society, make divisions to do that.

[00:18:32] And they're scared forward by all parties.

[00:18:34] Lalu did it.

[00:18:35] This SP did it.

[00:18:36] Everybody did it.

[00:18:38] So, break up the parties, get 35-40% because you won't.

[00:18:41] Modi is the only person after 1957 who tried to consolidate the Hindu vote on growth and development.

[00:18:47] And it worked.

[00:18:48] It worked.

[00:18:49] It worked in 2014.

[00:18:50] In fact,

[00:18:51] It worked in 2019.

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:53] Okay.

[00:18:53] 2024 or so, it worked.

[00:18:55] Except that UP happened because of the abuse of the RSS.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] And they tried to break up Yogi which shouldn't have been done.

[00:19:01] The important thing was to be together, come to power.

[00:19:04] But now in Haryana and they come back.

[00:19:05] It's very good.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:06] See, India requires political stability.

[00:19:09] India requires center of right policy, not leftist policies.

[00:19:14] Because you can't solve the poverty, you can't solve the problem of poverty by making everybody poor.

[00:19:19] Absolutely.

[00:19:19] There are only one, some section of people in the society who can grow, become entrepreneurs, create jobs.

[00:19:24] Everybody can't do it.

[00:19:26] Government is a failure.

[00:19:28] Air India lost 1,35,000 crores.

[00:19:30] Yeah.

[00:19:31] It's our money.

[00:19:32] It's our money.

[00:19:33] They were losing money.

[00:19:34] Who cared?

[00:19:35] Go pumping money.

[00:19:36] I'm sure that BSNR has lost more than 1,50,000 crores from whatever I can remember.

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:41] They're just pumping money.

[00:19:43] They're making losses.

[00:19:45] So what is the point?

[00:19:46] Because they know somebody's money, no?

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] Center of government is somebody's money, not your personal money.

[00:19:52] So I think there is no respect for taxpayers.

[00:19:56] Correct.

[00:19:57] There's no respect for taxpayers.

[00:19:58] Out of 8 crores people filing returns, only 2,5-3 crores people pay income tax.

[00:20:03] So the burden falls, disproportionality on people who are productive, worked hard, who make money.

[00:20:10] And it's okay to pay taxes, but use it properly.

[00:20:42] Yeah.

[00:20:44] It's a shame.

[00:20:45] You must have self-respect.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:48] Don't take freebies.

[00:20:49] You must have self-respect.

[00:20:50] Correct.

[00:20:50] They've taken the thing.

[00:20:51] Because why they don't trust the government?

[00:20:53] They say,

[00:20:53] I don't want to pay for money.

[00:20:55] We don't want to pay for money.

[00:20:56] We don't want to pay for money.

[00:20:58] We don't want to pay for money.

[00:20:59] We don't want to pay for money.

[00:21:11] Yeah.

[00:21:12] Certainly, there's been some improvement, but not enough.

[00:21:13] That's the thing.

[00:21:14] When Congress leaders actually keep complaining that Modi takes all the projects to Gujarat.

[00:21:18] Now look at Devendra Fadnavis as well.

[00:21:20] He instituted that war room for infrastructure projects.

[00:21:25] Things are happening so fast.

[00:21:27] There are people from Israel who want to set up a semiconductor plant.

[00:21:30] Yeah.

[00:21:30] And I think they applied, but ultimately, what Kandaraka says, there is some element of truth.

[00:21:38] I also hear that bureaucrats in Delhi push for everything to go to Gujarat.

[00:21:42] But what the Gujarat government did, which Kandaraka did not do, they gave 20% subsidy.

[00:21:48] Okay.

[00:21:48] Government of India, 50%.

[00:21:50] Gujarat government, 20%.

[00:21:51] When people came there, they grabbed them, showed them land and gave them the order immediately.

[00:21:55] With Kandaraka government, even if you give the order, you can't get possession.

[00:21:58] That KIDB is a corrupt organization.

[00:22:00] They will demand money.

[00:22:02] You know, when Sidramaya sits down on the high-level committee, nobody listens to him.

[00:22:07] Because after the approval, you go say, give me power thing.

[00:22:09] All right, sir, apply more innocently.

[00:22:11] When they say that this high-level poverty, that is different, this is different.

[00:22:14] Because they want their money.

[00:22:15] Right.

[00:22:16] So they are not able to do that.

[00:22:17] That's why they are going.

[00:22:18] Canes.

[00:22:19] Canes were set up in Kandaraka.

[00:22:20] I have spoken to them when I went to Mysore.

[00:22:22] That's six months, they didn't get land.

[00:22:25] Or they would have set up the plant here.

[00:22:27] In Chamrajnagar or somewhere.

[00:22:28] They didn't get land.

[00:22:29] Okay.

[00:22:30] Ultimately, businesses will look for what is easy for them.

[00:22:33] No, no.

[00:22:33] See, the industry department has to be friendly.

[00:22:35] See, I am on the board of something called Inmes Kandaraka, which I set up earlier for marketing and all that.

[00:22:41] And I stepped down because the new government came, they changed.

[00:22:44] I am going to notice summons from the GST department of Kandaraka.

[00:22:47] Come and present all these accounts before us to all board members, including to Arvidesh Pandey, including to Prasad, who is the industry secretary, including to Gunjan, you know, who is the industry commissioner.

[00:22:59] They sent a notice.

[00:23:00] Without applying the mind.

[00:23:02] It is a section 25 company.

[00:23:04] Not for profit.

[00:23:05] Send a notice.

[00:23:05] Blindly.

[00:23:06] It is the kind of thing they do.

[00:23:08] This tax terrorism.

[00:23:09] Couldn't they stop all that?

[00:23:10] Now, with all the tax terrorism, will anybody want to be a board member or work with government in any official capacity?

[00:23:15] Why should they?

[00:23:18] See, it is a broken system which they have to do.

[00:23:21] My young friends who are opening up businesses, the amount of notices that they have received, it is being ridiculous.

[00:23:26] One of our startups said, we want to get a trade license.

[00:23:30] Normal bribe is 20,000 rupees, but they are demanding 1 lakh.

[00:23:34] 1 lakh for a trade license?

[00:23:35] Stupid.

[00:23:36] What is a trade license?

[00:23:37] It is no privilege.

[00:23:38] We got a notice for something that we allegedly did seven years ago.

[00:23:42] And that's been pulled up today.

[00:23:44] Which department is that?

[00:23:46] My parents run a small business.

[00:23:49] Which department is that?

[00:23:50] I think it is the commercial tax.

[00:23:51] No, they have not updated the records.

[00:23:53] The records are not updated.

[00:23:54] They just send notices.

[00:23:55] They don't care.

[00:23:56] They don't care.

[00:23:57] Because they are paid.

[00:23:59] Somebody will retire.

[00:24:01] Somebody will fight the case.

[00:24:02] You go die.

[00:24:03] There is pressure on the bureaucrats to also pump in money.

[00:24:04] There is no pressure.

[00:24:05] It is just the way they are.

[00:24:06] They are also making money, you know.

[00:24:07] You harass people, you get money.

[00:24:09] Why will they come to you?

[00:24:11] They all got targets.

[00:24:12] Many of the posts in the government are sold.

[00:24:14] It has been happening for 10 years.

[00:24:16] Yeah.

[00:24:17] You know, the police also same thing, right?

[00:24:19] Some police stations are very lucrative.

[00:24:21] Correct.

[00:24:22] And what do the police do?

[00:24:24] I mean, when I applied for a house, that fellow asked for a bribe.

[00:24:27] I said, I am not going to give a bribe.

[00:24:28] He said, no, no.

[00:24:29] You have to give a bribe.

[00:24:30] I said, why?

[00:24:30] Sir, I paid so much money to come to this post.

[00:24:33] They are openly saying, how will I recover money?

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:36] And I don't get time.

[00:24:37] Now what is happening?

[00:24:38] Correct officials are getting together, pooling money.

[00:24:40] Like venture capital.

[00:24:42] And then going by a post.

[00:24:43] And they put one of their people and get returns.

[00:24:45] It becomes a business.

[00:24:46] It is an auction.

[00:24:47] It is a business.

[00:24:48] They are investing money.

[00:24:49] So they made money.

[00:24:50] They are investing money.

[00:24:51] You go to many restaurants and all that.

[00:24:53] Government departments come, eat and drink and go away.

[00:24:56] Yeah.

[00:24:56] What do you do?

[00:24:57] They don't pay.

[00:24:58] And the police come and close up the gates of some businesses and say, you can't go from

[00:25:02] there.

[00:25:02] And when you go to protest, they come and see me.

[00:25:05] They ask for money.

[00:25:05] What do you do?

[00:25:06] And one of our startups, they had some defalcation of money.

[00:25:10] They went and complained against an employee.

[00:25:13] And the employee committed suicide.

[00:25:15] And that family went to a lawyer.

[00:25:17] The lawyer put a case on the company.

[00:25:20] Whereas this fellow is defalcated money.

[00:25:22] Right.

[00:25:23] And when the case happened, they went to the police.

[00:25:25] The police came and picked up the company and put them inside.

[00:25:28] When they went and protested, they said, no.

[00:25:30] Then they paid.

[00:25:30] They had to pay money.

[00:25:31] Huge amount of money.

[00:25:33] How can you do this?

[00:25:34] A very senior government, police official.

[00:25:38] I was so upset.

[00:25:41] What do you do?

[00:25:41] You are helpless.

[00:25:43] Whom will you complain to?

[00:25:44] Home minister?

[00:25:45] Whom will you complain?

[00:25:45] Home secretary?

[00:25:46] What do they do?

[00:25:48] One real estate friend of mine had a property somewhere in that old Madras road.

[00:25:53] And a fellow, when MLA came and asked for a five crore bribe.

[00:25:57] They said they are not going to give.

[00:25:59] Why should they give a bribe?

[00:26:00] Then he got all his people and shut down the business.

[00:26:03] Then we complained.

[00:26:04] I also complained.

[00:26:06] Complained to minister.

[00:26:07] Complained to everybody.

[00:26:08] The BJP government then.

[00:26:10] Complained to everybody.

[00:26:11] They spoke to him.

[00:26:12] The fellow did not listen.

[00:26:13] They couldn't do anything.

[00:26:15] They couldn't do anything.

[00:26:16] Where is the rule of law?

[00:26:19] The frustrations are real.

[00:26:20] Even if we look at the kind of plans that the government announces.

[00:26:23] There is absolutely zero public trust.

[00:26:26] Because they know that there is probably a real estate scheme which is cooking there.

[00:26:29] But there are things moving.

[00:26:32] Bangalore has a lot of problem.

[00:26:33] In general, cities have a lot of problem.

[00:26:35] Because I think even the smart cities project actually failed.

[00:26:38] Smart cities fail.

[00:26:39] Not executive.

[00:26:40] They deliberately make it fail.

[00:26:41] They knock off money.

[00:26:42] For example, you got a DULT program with Japan for some traffic signals.

[00:26:47] Seven years going on and on.

[00:26:49] The officials in the government should be sacked.

[00:26:51] Seven years.

[00:26:52] They are giving money.

[00:26:53] Seven years is going on and on and on.

[00:26:55] Then they come and break up the payment.

[00:26:56] They redo the payment.

[00:26:58] They don't clean up.

[00:26:59] They come and remake the road.

[00:27:00] Remove all the mug.

[00:27:01] Keep it by the side.

[00:27:01] Don't remove that.

[00:27:02] What kind of execution is this?

[00:27:05] What kind of execution is this?

[00:27:07] They should be ashamed.

[00:27:09] So, can't we focus on reviving those cities which already had industrial outputs?

[00:27:15] They have to do that.

[00:27:16] But who has to do it?

[00:27:17] Government has to run.

[00:27:18] That is the job.

[00:27:19] They are not doing it.

[00:27:21] I have been to government so many times for 30 years.

[00:27:24] Every time I go to government, tell them, they say, good idea.

[00:27:26] We will do it.

[00:27:27] We will do it.

[00:27:27] But it doesn't happen.

[00:27:29] I used to go to industry minister.

[00:27:30] Good man.

[00:27:31] Say, we want this.

[00:27:32] He will call all the officials.

[00:27:33] They will all nod and say yes.

[00:27:35] After two months, I go, not happen.

[00:27:36] He will call all of them.

[00:27:37] Yell at them.

[00:27:37] They say yes.

[00:27:39] Then after another three months, go to them and say, nod.

[00:27:40] Agilwa.

[00:27:41] Then you call them, abuse them.

[00:27:43] They say yes.

[00:27:44] Again, go to them.

[00:27:45] In Agila, sir.

[00:27:46] Agilwa.

[00:27:46] Yak Agila.

[00:27:47] Call them and find them.

[00:27:48] Then threaten them.

[00:27:49] I will transfer you.

[00:27:49] Something happens.

[00:27:50] What do you do?

[00:27:52] There is no accountability.

[00:27:53] What you have to do is, you have to make sure that discretion power of all government

[00:27:57] is reduced.

[00:27:57] You don't have to go to government.

[00:27:59] Automate everything.

[00:28:00] So, automatically it comes.

[00:28:01] Yeah.

[00:28:02] And like not the lousy software like that BBMP has and others have.

[00:28:06] It is a problem software.

[00:28:07] Do it very clearly.

[00:28:08] And you should look at the data to find out what is happening.

[00:28:13] Try registering a company with government of India.

[00:28:15] They reject your name.

[00:28:17] Then the call comes, sir, your name is rejected.

[00:28:19] We will do it, sir.

[00:28:20] Pay us 20,000 rupees, sir.

[00:28:22] I complained.

[00:28:24] I complained to PMO.

[00:28:27] That is something they change.

[00:28:28] But they capture the system.

[00:28:31] They capture the system.

[00:28:33] And today, you know, if you have got some physical shares, you have not done anything,

[00:28:38] or you have forgotten your shareholding or something, they will send it off to the investor protection forum, something.

[00:28:43] Right.

[00:28:45] And then, you know, if you have got a black hole, you can't recover.

[00:28:48] You apply.

[00:28:49] First of all, the system doesn't take an application.

[00:28:51] Then it goes on and on.

[00:28:53] And what do you do?

[00:28:54] Whom do you talk to?

[00:28:55] Then what happens?

[00:28:56] Somebody calls and says, I'm an agent.

[00:28:58] I'll get it done.

[00:28:59] You pay me money.

[00:28:59] I'll get it done.

[00:29:00] They'll get it done.

[00:29:02] When you have any electronic system, agents have come up.

[00:29:04] Because they fix the system.

[00:29:06] It can be settled.

[00:29:07] If the officer there reviews and says, how many applied?

[00:29:10] How many completed in time?

[00:29:11] How many delayed?

[00:29:12] And why did you delay?

[00:29:14] Then it will come down dramatically.

[00:29:16] And they need to have a grievance mechanism like a ombudsman where you can go and complain.

[00:29:20] Even Reserve Bank of India, many of us started to apply to them.

[00:29:24] No reply.

[00:29:25] They don't care.

[00:29:26] They don't reply.

[00:29:28] Then you have to go to Bombay and run around.

[00:29:30] So you hire a big four.

[00:29:31] The big four will walk around.

[00:29:33] They'll get it done.

[00:29:34] They'll charge a high fee.

[00:29:35] They get it done because they got all the contacts.

[00:29:37] They know how to get it done.

[00:29:40] What do you do?

[00:29:41] I complain publicly about RBI becoming a back hole in where you have to get approval.

[00:29:46] Then the approval for one person, yes.

[00:29:47] Other person, no.

[00:29:48] Reason, not given.

[00:29:49] What do you do?

[00:29:50] I'm talking about 15 years.

[00:29:53] I've seen them.

[00:29:54] When I go out, they respect me.

[00:29:56] I talk to them.

[00:29:57] They say yes.

[00:29:57] But same thing.

[00:29:59] For very eminent people, one year, two years, make them run around.

[00:30:02] For what?

[00:30:04] Don't you have the courtesy to reply?

[00:30:06] All government departments should have a norm you reply.

[00:30:09] In fact, in Karnataka, I've gone public and said, every government department should put a tariff card.

[00:30:14] Pay this bribe by check.

[00:30:16] We'll get your work done within 10 days.

[00:30:18] Why not?

[00:30:18] It's easier.

[00:30:19] Do it.

[00:30:20] And let them distribute it.

[00:30:21] Give it to the minister also.

[00:30:22] Officially.

[00:30:23] What does it matter?

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:25] My work will be done.

[00:30:26] Arrestment will end.

[00:30:28] Try getting a death certificate.

[00:30:29] Try getting a birth certificate.

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:31] Look, the starting point for cleaning up India is to get a good justice system.

[00:30:37] Our justice system is broken.

[00:30:38] Yes.

[00:31:07] If somebody occupies a house and you want to vacate him.

[00:31:08] Judges for a million population, we need 50.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:11] As for the law commission, U.S. has got 100.

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:13] We have to invest in the lower judiciary, get more courts and do it so that people will go.

[00:31:18] Some of the lawyers will not want it because they want this.

[00:31:20] They make money like this, right?

[00:31:22] They don't want to settle.

[00:31:23] Correct.

[00:31:23] And then, you know, the high court also is overburdened.

[00:31:26] We need more judges.

[00:31:28] And second, they must stop giving adjournments.

[00:31:31] Because you go to a court, 100 cases come up.

[00:31:34] Yeah.

[00:31:34] Half the day is gone just hearing and giving dates.

[00:31:37] What is the point?

[00:31:38] When does the hearing take place?

[00:31:42] NCLT takes forever.

[00:31:43] See, you have to fix the justice system.

[00:31:46] Look at Lallu.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

[00:31:48] Took 20 years for the case conviction.

[00:31:50] Now he went to jail.

[00:31:51] Now he's on bail.

[00:31:52] And he's saying, I'm not well, but he's walking around and doing all kind of things.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:56] Where is the truth?

[00:31:57] So we have to fix the justice system.

[00:31:59] We have to create more capacity.

[00:32:01] And government with the litigants should withdraw all cases.

[00:32:04] Correct.

[00:32:04] There's so many criminal cases for 144.

[00:32:06] Withdraw it, man.

[00:32:07] Any case which does not, which is pending in the court for more than 10 years criminal case,

[00:32:12] which does not involve violence, just withdraw it and close it.

[00:32:15] Shut it down.

[00:32:16] Petty cases.

[00:32:17] Put it down.

[00:32:18] There's no capacity.

[00:32:19] There's not enough prosecutors.

[00:32:20] There's not enough police going there.

[00:32:22] And we made a study through this, you know, an organization about undertrial prisoners.

[00:32:28] 50-60% of people are undertrial prisoners who have completed more than 75% of the time

[00:32:33] they would have to be convicted if they're convicted by court.

[00:32:36] They already spent time.

[00:32:38] Supreme Court has said if you're convicted more than 50%, you should be let free on bail.

[00:32:41] They're not let on bail.

[00:32:43] Judges have to look at it.

[00:32:44] They're not looking.

[00:32:44] What do you do?

[00:32:45] Where is justice?

[00:32:46] Justice.

[00:32:46] The biggest failure of Indian democracy in 75 years is the lack of justice.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:51] Like the president of India said in the function of the chief justice.

[00:32:55] My tribals come and tell me, they go to court, there's no justice.

[00:32:58] Chief justice, please give them justice.

[00:33:00] She said it twice in two events, four things.

[00:33:03] She feels the pain.

[00:33:05] Yeah.

[00:33:05] She comes from poor sources.

[00:33:06] She feels the pain.

[00:33:07] They come and talk to her.

[00:33:09] What?

[00:33:10] Where is the justice?

[00:33:11] Yeah.

[00:33:12] The most important thing of a state is to deliver justice.

[00:33:15] Correct.

[00:33:15] And they're the biggest failure in this country.

[00:33:17] The chief minister doesn't care.

[00:33:19] And law and order.

[00:33:19] Law minister doesn't care.

[00:33:21] Yeah.

[00:33:21] I once asked the chief minister, why are you not investing?

[00:33:24] No, no, no.

[00:33:24] They're going, they're delivering judges cases against us.

[00:33:27] So why should I expand?

[00:33:29] That's the answer I was given by chief minister of a northern state.

[00:33:34] What do you do?

[00:33:36] Justice, first.

[00:33:38] Well, as far as bank.

[00:33:40] See, a state in a democracy has five functions.

[00:33:43] Government of India and a government.

[00:33:45] First is defending the borders of this country.

[00:33:48] Correct.

[00:33:48] Government has done a good job.

[00:33:49] Yeah.

[00:33:50] Second, maintaining law and order.

[00:33:51] Not a good job, but you know, not of improvement.

[00:33:54] Third, delivery of justice, failure.

[00:33:56] Yeah.

[00:33:57] Fourth is management of currency, done a good job.

[00:34:00] Fifth is foreign policy, done a good job.

[00:34:03] But for us, justice.

[00:34:05] Law and order.

[00:34:06] Is the life safe today in Bangalore?

[00:34:09] People are scared.

[00:34:10] Somebody can pick you up, put you in jail.

[00:34:12] Absolutely.

[00:34:13] And not, you know, put you in jail on Friday.

[00:34:15] And what do you do?

[00:34:15] Who will let you go?

[00:34:17] There are some judges who open up the court at midnight and hear people and give bail.

[00:34:21] You heard of that also, no?

[00:34:22] How can that happen?

[00:34:24] When a hoi sada comes, I need to feel protected.

[00:34:26] But we run away from them.

[00:34:28] You feel threatened.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:29] Thinking that he'll be here for some money or something.

[00:34:32] You feel threatened.

[00:34:33] Why should we fear police?

[00:34:35] We should not fear the police.

[00:34:36] Police are supposed to protect you.

[00:34:37] And some judges open the court at midnight and hear people, convicted people.

[00:34:41] How can you do that?

[00:34:42] What about the rest of us?

[00:34:44] Some judges, some lawyers are able to get judges to open up and do, you know, hear their

[00:34:49] cases.

[00:34:49] What about the rest of us?

[00:34:51] Where is equality of justice?

[00:34:52] We have to fix the justice problem.

[00:34:54] The most important problem for this country.

[00:34:55] We had the solution 2000, 2500 years ago.

[00:34:58] Everything's mentioned in Arta Shastra.

[00:35:00] That's the way in which we used to function.

[00:35:03] And today, in the name of democracy, all these failures are being burdened on the citizens.

[00:35:08] See, one is the quality of leadership.

[00:35:10] Quality of people who become ministers and others.

[00:35:13] Right.

[00:35:13] The quality has to improve.

[00:35:15] I think there is that certain hanging hope.

[00:35:17] Second, all these cash lobbies and all, they destroy the sense of purpose to everybody.

[00:35:22] People think that, oh, I'm elected by this cash.

[00:35:24] I should do the job only for this cash.

[00:35:26] That's very wrong.

[00:35:28] Correct.

[00:35:29] I mean, like that, remember that Badrudi is somebody in Assam.

[00:35:32] He was elected.

[00:35:32] Ajmal.

[00:35:32] I mean, in parliament, he walked away when Vandaya Matram was sung.

[00:35:38] Nobody's asked him to sing Vandaya Matram.

[00:35:41] His electorate is both Hindus and this thing.

[00:35:43] The Hindus are not open.

[00:35:44] He represents all of them.

[00:35:46] He cannot say, I'm a Muslim.

[00:35:47] I don't listen to it.

[00:35:48] I can walk off.

[00:35:49] It's a national song.

[00:35:51] You at least sit there, stand there and show respect.

[00:35:54] Nobody's asking to sing that.

[00:35:55] Nobody's asking anything.

[00:35:56] And if you just stand there and give respect, you become lesser of a Muslim.

[00:36:01] Is that what your faith is?

[00:36:03] I mean, I don't understand this at all.

[00:36:06] In fact, I was joking with the BJP leader saying that if I really wanted Akhandu Bharat,

[00:36:10] I would look up to the Congress.

[00:36:12] He said, why?

[00:36:13] I said, they would get a bigger vote bank then.

[00:36:15] It would be all settled.

[00:36:16] Look at it.

[00:36:19] Partition, looking back, was a good thing for India.

[00:36:22] Absolutely.

[00:36:22] I agree.

[00:36:24] Otherwise, if there's no partition, this country would have become an Islamic country long ago.

[00:36:28] We'd all be in trouble.

[00:36:29] We'll not have our rights.

[00:36:30] We'll have fundamentalist ruling us.

[00:36:32] It's good that there's partition.

[00:36:34] It's very painful.

[00:36:35] A lot of people died.

[00:36:36] It's good that there are support.

[00:36:37] Look in Bangladesh, what they're doing to the Hindus.

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:40] Look at what is happening.

[00:36:42] Openly, they go kill.

[00:36:43] No justice.

[00:36:43] They're accusing ISKCON of terrorism.

[00:36:45] Yes.

[00:36:47] Because they can accuse anything, no?

[00:36:50] And judges are pliable.

[00:36:52] There's fear in the judges, fear in the president, fear in everybody.

[00:36:55] They just go beat them up.

[00:36:57] And this is coming from a government which is run by a Nobel laureate.

[00:37:01] Just shows what a fraudulent award he got.

[00:37:04] What a big fraud he is.

[00:37:06] So, in the geopolitical sense, how do you see that magnifying India's issues?

[00:37:12] Because at one point, everybody hoped that after Narendra Modi would come and to a certain extent, he's also delivered on some of the things that he promised.

[00:37:19] First, we need that unity within India.

[00:37:23] We need to solve internal problems.

[00:37:24] First, look, look.

[00:37:24] The world respects people with money.

[00:37:27] Yeah.

[00:37:29] The world respects people with money.

[00:37:32] Right.

[00:37:33] Okay.

[00:37:34] So, we have to be economically rich.

[00:37:38] So, nobody cares what China does.

[00:37:39] Why do they respect China?

[00:37:40] Because China has got money.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:41] They give money to universities.

[00:37:43] They give money to causes.

[00:37:44] They give money everywhere.

[00:37:45] They buy people over.

[00:37:46] And the way the world works.

[00:37:47] Everybody.

[00:37:49] Our press was taken to China recently.

[00:37:52] And they came back and wrote stories, good stories about China.

[00:37:55] Our own people, journalists, who say that they're standing up for the people.

[00:38:00] Let's see how they can be manipulated.

[00:38:02] See, we have to become economically rich.

[00:38:06] Second, we have to make sure that the world invests more in us by getting more money on FDI.

[00:38:13] Yeah.

[00:38:13] Then the world has a bigger stake.

[00:38:15] Correct.

[00:38:16] Economically.

[00:38:16] And the third thing, we have to maintain a foreign affairs independence, which Modi has done very well.

[00:38:21] He's neither tilting towards Putin, nor tilting towards Bidan.

[00:38:24] Yeah.

[00:38:25] By the way.

[00:38:26] He's standing in the middle and saying, I will look after my interest.

[00:38:29] That is what it is.

[00:38:30] Foreign policy is all about looking after your own interest.

[00:38:32] That he's doing.

[00:38:33] I think we have done much, much better in foreign policy than doing the UPA.

[00:38:37] Right.

[00:38:37] UPA was pathetic.

[00:38:38] A weak prime minister.

[00:38:39] Nobody respected.

[00:38:42] All party manipulators were corrupt who made money.

[00:38:46] It was free for all.

[00:38:47] How do you see the politics evolving in the next 30 years?

[00:38:50] Because I feel that this appeasement probably won't come down at any point.

[00:38:57] No, appeasement won't come down.

[00:38:57] But you see, there's some good news happening.

[00:39:01] Now we are going to have a census.

[00:39:03] The census will lead to delimitation.

[00:39:05] Delimitation.

[00:39:06] Delimitation will mean many things.

[00:39:07] North India will get more seats, so we're going to suffer.

[00:39:09] Yeah.

[00:39:10] There's going to be political disputes because we don't want North India to rule us.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:13] We don't want Hindi to be imposed on us.

[00:39:15] All of us speak Hindi.

[00:39:17] We like Hindi.

[00:39:18] Correct.

[00:39:19] But don't impose it.

[00:39:20] Yeah.

[00:39:20] Because many other people in North India try to impose their views.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Home ministry is pushing more and more Hindi.

[00:39:26] When you write to them, reply only in Hindi.

[00:39:27] They should reply in Hindi and your own language is the language of a choice.

[00:39:31] That's very wrong what they're doing.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:33] They're trying to impose.

[00:39:33] They create more conflicts.

[00:39:35] Second, women will get more seats.

[00:39:37] Hopefully that will change politics.

[00:39:39] And the third thing which is very important is Admaniras will get more seats.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:44] Politicians respond to their electorate.

[00:39:46] Correct.

[00:39:46] In Arbaniras get 40-45% of seats.

[00:39:49] Arbaniras become more important.

[00:39:50] Then it will improve.

[00:39:52] For example, Karnataka has got 226 or 228 seats.

[00:39:55] 224.

[00:39:56] 224.

[00:39:56] Yeah.

[00:39:57] Bangalore is 26.

[00:39:58] 28.

[00:39:59] Bangalore is 28.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:01] 28 is 12%.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:03] Correct.

[00:40:03] Our population is 1.2 crore and 6.7 crore.

[00:40:06] 20%.

[00:40:07] Close to 80-19%.

[00:40:08] Yeah.

[00:40:08] If you get 20% seats, that's 44-45 seats.

[00:40:11] That will give us a big boost.

[00:40:13] If 45 seats come, they'll all listen.

[00:40:15] We'll get our share.

[00:40:16] They won't be able to siphon out the money and give it to others.

[00:40:19] Correct.

[00:40:20] That is the middle class who live in cities and the towns will get voted.

[00:40:24] But we need to get them to vote.

[00:40:26] But nobody votes in cities.

[00:40:27] It's not about voting.

[00:40:28] A big problem.

[00:40:29] Even if 40% only vote, they'll respond to them.

[00:40:31] We'll still have the political power.

[00:40:33] Yeah.

[00:40:33] We'll respond to them.

[00:40:34] Politicians respond to the electorate.

[00:40:36] That is there.

[00:40:37] Because they want to come back to power.

[00:40:38] See, that's one of the big things that Maharashtra got was in the gift of Devendra Fadnavish.

[00:40:43] Fadnavish came from a largely urban background.

[00:40:46] He was able to understand what Mumbai, Nagpur and Pune actually needs.

[00:40:50] India will grow only when the cities and towns grow.

[00:40:52] Yeah.

[00:40:53] 70% of farmers don't want their children to be farmers.

[00:40:56] Absolutely.

[00:40:57] Is it a place where you don't make enough money?

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:40:59] It's subsistence.

[00:41:00] They don't want that.

[00:41:01] And most villages don't have enough facilities.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:04] They want to be where there's facilities, medical education facility.

[00:41:07] They want a better life for the children.

[00:41:09] But when they come to the city, they live in a slum because they don't have money.

[00:41:13] So we got to develop our small towns.

[00:41:16] And the small towns have got to be the magnet of growth for the villages around them.

[00:41:20] So you stay in villages, travel 5 kilometers to a town to get a job and work and come back.

[00:41:25] That's a good thing to do.

[00:41:27] So you distribute employment everywhere.

[00:41:28] So we have to have a different thing.

[00:41:29] That means urban areas have to get more investment and more money.

[00:41:33] 8 lakh crore is paid as subsidies by central and state every year.

[00:41:36] It's a lot of money.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:38] The title of this podcast was largely focused on Bangalore and how we envisioned the city in 2037.

[00:41:44] Because every other city largely has a vision of their own, even though it has differing vision from individual to institution.

[00:41:50] Here we don't have that.

[00:41:52] We actually, I mean, there are plans, studies, surveys and all of that done.

[00:41:55] But we don't know where we want to be 10-15 years from now.

[00:41:59] I think many of us know where we want to go.

[00:42:01] Vidhan Swadha may not know, but we all know where to go.

[00:42:03] See, Bangalore has got a population of 1.2 crores.

[00:42:06] People say 1.4 crores.

[00:42:08] 15,000 per capita income.

[00:42:10] Bangalore pays the second highest quantum of income tax in the country.

[00:42:14] We're taking Delhi after Mumbai.

[00:42:16] That's also because, you know, middle class pays taxes.

[00:42:18] There are more IT companies with good income.

[00:42:20] They pay taxes.

[00:42:21] Bangalore has the third highest quantum of bank deposits.

[00:42:24] There's fourth highest quantum of bank lending.

[00:42:26] And it's the third largest airport.

[00:42:28] And everything, Bangalore is India's third largest city.

[00:42:30] Yeah.

[00:42:30] Even though it has half the population of Delhi or Mumbai.

[00:42:34] So, Bangalore has no way they want to go.

[00:42:36] They want to create a global town where people can get good jobs, a good quality of living.

[00:42:40] There's no traffic problem.

[00:42:41] There's enough public transport.

[00:42:42] Yeah.

[00:42:43] Okay.

[00:42:43] There are enough education facilities, good housing.

[00:42:46] It is there in large ways, but we've got a bad traffic problem.

[00:42:49] Air is getting full.

[00:42:50] Water is not there.

[00:42:51] I mean, water is a solved problem, man.

[00:42:53] Make the damn project and give water.

[00:42:55] Why do you make people suffer for water like this government did because they failed?

[00:42:59] Is the water going to people now or is it still forgotten?

[00:43:02] That Cavari fifth stage or something, when they said it's over.

[00:43:05] Yeah.

[00:43:05] Is water going to people?

[00:43:06] People are getting the benefits now or are they just forgotten?

[00:43:08] They announced that it is almost done.

[00:43:10] They announced that people are actually getting the benefits.

[00:43:12] We don't know.

[00:43:13] They're not sure.

[00:43:14] There have been good rains.

[00:43:15] Water recharge has happened.

[00:43:16] They're getting money.

[00:43:17] So, I think Bangalore has got to see what should you do.

[00:43:20] See, Bangalore, first of all, we've got to build our infrastructure.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:23] For infrastructure, we've got to have 500 kilometers of metro.

[00:43:26] Yeah.

[00:43:26] The metro is again a broken organization.

[00:43:28] The project is three years beyond schedule.

[00:43:30] Yeah.

[00:43:30] You must get good staff into the metro.

[00:43:32] We had to yell for years to get that three kilometer extension done.

[00:43:36] Mahishra Rao, who's running it, is a good person.

[00:43:39] He's a very dynamic officer.

[00:43:40] But he needs support.

[00:43:41] He needs autonomy.

[00:43:42] It's best that he's made into a private company like the Bangalore airport and run properly

[00:43:46] with public funding coming in.

[00:43:48] And then we need at least 15,000 electric buses.

[00:43:52] Why can't they open up and say any startup who wants to start buses can do so, provided

[00:43:57] they run 100 buses.

[00:43:59] And then we'll allocate routes to you.

[00:44:02] And we'll have a regulator who will say you can charge so much money.

[00:44:04] Like Singapore has got some three, four companies who run public transport.

[00:44:08] Why can't they do it?

[00:44:09] Correct.

[00:44:09] Because see, urban areas are aggregation of human activity.

[00:44:13] Aggregation of human activity creates specialization.

[00:44:16] Specialization increases productivity.

[00:44:18] Higher product creates higher income.

[00:44:20] So aggregation of human activity, when aggregation takes place, the biggest problem is mobility.

[00:44:25] Correct.

[00:44:25] People have to go from house to work.

[00:44:28] That is very in public transport.

[00:44:29] Bangalore has got 1.1 crore vehicles, 35 lakh cars, 60 lakh two-wheelers.

[00:44:35] I mean, it's unsustainable, right?

[00:44:37] Everybody has got a two-wheeler because the public transport doesn't work.

[00:44:40] The road traffic doesn't work.

[00:44:42] Metro is limping.

[00:44:43] Look at the metro demand.

[00:44:44] It's getting crowded.

[00:44:46] And after building the metro, they didn't even order the damn trains.

[00:44:48] Why can't they rent a train every two minutes?

[00:44:51] They spend so much money on the track.

[00:44:53] They must know.

[00:44:54] The way to earn revenues is to saturate public services.

[00:44:57] Saturate.

[00:44:58] So even if people don't come, after one year, they'll come because it's convenient.

[00:45:01] When the metro is beautiful, anybody who goes in metro will go again.

[00:45:04] But you know, you have to wait.

[00:45:06] And the trains are crowded.

[00:45:07] Why?

[00:45:07] They don't have the boogies.

[00:45:08] They have not bought the boogies.

[00:45:09] They put money on the track.

[00:45:10] What kind of management is this?

[00:45:12] What kind of management?

[00:45:13] You should question them.

[00:45:15] It's public money and they're destroying our lives.

[00:45:17] Yeah.

[00:45:17] I've never taken out my car in the last two months.

[00:45:20] This is the first time I actually took it out because there's a metro station right

[00:45:23] in front of my house.

[00:45:24] Yeah, see?

[00:45:24] It's so convenient.

[00:45:25] It's convenient.

[00:45:26] And Bangalore is pleasant, right?

[00:45:27] You can walk around.

[00:45:28] It's not like Delhi.

[00:45:30] I walk from home to office.

[00:45:31] So, especially with people like Mr. Ghatkarri, I mean respect to him.

[00:45:35] But you know, they're obsessed with creating broad roads, highway infrastructures.

[00:45:39] It is required at some point, but not within a city like Bangalore, which has different requirements.

[00:45:43] Cities require public transport.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:46] And cities require metros.

[00:45:48] I went to Mumbai.

[00:45:50] That sea corridor has come.

[00:45:52] Beautiful.

[00:45:54] From Bandra, I went to Nariman Point.

[00:45:57] 15 minutes.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:58] It should take one hour.

[00:45:59] What a pleasure.

[00:46:01] Then you get stuck on that airport road.

[00:46:03] Because of bad road design.

[00:46:05] Correct.

[00:46:06] So, you went to Bangalore also.

[00:46:08] I mean, that airport road is good.

[00:46:10] It's getting crowded.

[00:46:11] They're all some, you know, bad designs.

[00:46:12] Simply cleaned up.

[00:46:13] You can go very well to the airport.

[00:46:15] Yeah.

[00:46:16] See, RK Mishra suggested outskirts of the city must have some 100 kilometers elevated road.

[00:46:21] So, people can go from one end to another end of the city, round the way, instead of going through the city.

[00:46:26] Right.

[00:46:27] Why should people go through the city?

[00:46:29] The government wants to build the roads under it.

[00:46:31] Go through the city.

[00:46:31] Every 100 meters, you have a stop.

[00:46:34] Yeah.

[00:46:34] The traffic policeman stands there for a thoroughfare road and lets the traffic on the side road go first.

[00:46:39] Blocking transport.

[00:46:40] What kind of policing is this?

[00:46:43] You see the flow of traffic.

[00:46:44] Don't stop the flow of traffic.

[00:46:47] Stop it really in the rare occasions.

[00:46:50] Because you stop the main road, it backs up.

[00:46:53] Because in the side, there's some 10 vehicles waiting.

[00:46:56] You see the side.

[00:46:57] They should be trained better.

[00:46:59] So, we need public transport.

[00:47:00] And we need BBMP to be made into five corporations.

[00:47:04] Because one corporation cannot manage.

[00:47:06] Can one commissioner, chief commissioner manage 1.2 crore of people?

[00:47:10] 1.2 crore of people is twice the population of Singapore, which has got a prime minister, has got an RBI, has got a cabinet, has got everybody.

[00:47:18] We need a mayor full-time.

[00:47:19] We need five mayors.

[00:47:21] Full-time mayor.

[00:47:22] Not a mayor who dresses up and goes for functions.

[00:47:24] We need one for five years.

[00:47:26] I need good people to be mayors.

[00:47:28] Who understand, who can run a city.

[00:47:30] Thank you so much for giving us your time.

[00:47:32] We went, I think, all over the place.

[00:47:35] But still, I think we've largely addressed the sentiment that the people have.

[00:47:39] But let me talk about Bangalore.

[00:47:41] You see, Bangalore is a very unique city in the world.

[00:47:44] Bangalore has got 25 lakh people working in technology, 60,000 IT companies.

[00:47:50] And, you know, it highs 1.5-2 lakh people in technology.

[00:47:54] 85 billion dollars of exports.

[00:47:57] 20,000 startups.

[00:47:58] 45 unicorns.

[00:47:59] And, you get 1.5-2 lakh of good jobs every year.

[00:48:03] 400 of the Fortune 500 companies at the R&D here.

[00:48:06] This is an extraordinary city.

[00:48:08] And you go on the outer ring road.

[00:48:09] The names of the companies are some of the best, largest companies in the world.

[00:48:12] Any city will be proud to have those logos there.

[00:48:15] But look at the stupid road.

[00:48:18] Our chief minister, deputy, when they 3-4 times, they promise nothing happened.

[00:48:21] Now they're limping.

[00:48:23] Every day they'll suffer.

[00:48:24] The whole outer ring road is dirty.

[00:48:26] Debris on the side road.

[00:48:27] Service road.

[00:48:28] Potters.

[00:48:29] Clean it up.

[00:48:29] I mean, is it so difficult to make a road pot-free?

[00:48:33] Is it a big engineering problem?

[00:48:35] Is it a solved problem for 100 years?

[00:48:37] Corruption.

[00:48:38] They give contracts to all kind of people.

[00:48:40] Don't pay them.

[00:48:41] Look at the mess there.

[00:48:43] Any city should be proud of that place.

[00:48:45] They contribute largely to taxes.

[00:48:47] They give the best employment to us and our youth.

[00:48:50] And do you treat them with respect?

[00:48:53] You treat them so shabbily.

[00:48:55] Then you cry that industry is not coming.

[00:48:57] Industry goes away.

[00:48:58] Gurudad takes away.

[00:48:59] Why are you crying?

[00:49:01] They're going to have a global investor meet in February or something.

[00:49:03] You can improve Bangalore first, no?

[00:49:06] Investors will come.

[00:49:07] They don't need you to have a meet to come.

[00:49:09] Correct.

[00:49:09] They will come.

[00:49:10] The meet is only in a showpiece.

[00:49:13] It's a waste of expense.

[00:49:14] Yeah.

[00:49:15] And you have got to do it.

[00:49:16] So, Bangalore is a unique city.

[00:49:18] We know in Bangalore what the future of Bangalore could be.

[00:49:21] We could write it down.

[00:49:22] Yeah.

[00:49:22] But government has to work together, improve the governance, invest more money and use Bangalore

[00:49:27] to create jobs.

[00:49:28] Bangalore is the biggest job generator in Karnataka.

[00:49:30] Bangalore is the biggest tax generator in Karnataka.

[00:49:33] Biggest investments come here.

[00:49:34] The best quality jobs are here.

[00:49:36] You must grow this place.

[00:49:37] Correct.

[00:49:37] And then build very good roads to places like Mysore, Mangalore and others.

[00:49:42] Where people can go and come in 2 hours or 4 hours or whatever it is with public transport.

[00:49:47] So, those cities can develop.

[00:49:48] Today with that express way to Mysore, you can reach Mysore in 2 and a half hours.

[00:49:53] Yeah.

[00:49:53] Otherwise, the Mysore road is becoming like chickpet.

[00:49:55] Yeah.

[00:49:56] With heavy traffic.

[00:49:57] Now, 2 and a half hours, Mysore is booming.

[00:49:59] Yeah.

[00:50:00] In the weekends, some 3 lakh, 4 lakh people drive down.

[00:50:02] Right?

[00:50:02] Yeah.

[00:50:03] Huh?

[00:50:03] Mysore is booming.

[00:50:05] Why can't you do the same for other cities?

[00:50:08] In and around Mangalore.

[00:50:10] Mangalore, we have to improve the road.

[00:50:12] It's a beautiful place.

[00:50:13] Yeah.

[00:50:13] You should go to Mangalore by road in 4 hours.

[00:50:15] In train by 3 hours.

[00:50:17] Train takes 10 hours.

[00:50:18] Yeah.

[00:50:18] You can build a tunnel through that highway.

[00:50:20] To that mountain there.

[00:50:21] The road has not been...

[00:50:22] The road is such a bad shape for 15 years.

[00:50:25] Nobody cares.

[00:50:26] Hmm.

[00:50:26] 15 years.

[00:50:27] I think that will have a lot of opposition.

[00:50:29] Gadkari promised that he will do that tunnel.

[00:50:30] Now, I am told that he says it will be too expensive, etc.

[00:50:33] Not viable.

[00:50:34] Whereas, he is spending thousands of close rupees in Jaipur, in Jammu and Kashmir.

[00:50:40] Yeah.

[00:50:41] In other places.

[00:50:42] Building tunnels.

[00:50:42] They are doing it beautifully.

[00:50:43] Building tunnels.

[00:50:44] Yeah.

[00:50:44] Why not here?

[00:50:45] They don't care.

[00:50:46] These people must go.

[00:50:47] They are afraid that people...

[00:50:48] I told them, you go fight with Gadkari and tell him.

[00:50:50] Yeah.

[00:50:51] He made a promise.

[00:50:51] Blocking his promise.

[00:50:53] See, Khandanikas are good people.

[00:50:54] Hmm.

[00:50:55] We suffer in silence.

[00:50:57] And we talk and forget about it.

[00:50:59] Had this been happening in any other state, I think there would be some severe reaction.

[00:51:03] Yeah.

[00:51:03] There will be movements in the city.

[00:51:05] There is so much frustration, but people just don't express it out.

[00:51:08] Yeah.

[00:51:08] People don't express it out.

[00:51:10] So, I think the government...

[00:51:11] See, government should be smart enough to understand.

[00:51:13] This is a golden goose.

[00:51:14] Take care of it.

[00:51:15] It will produce revenues for you.

[00:51:16] It will make you rich also.

[00:51:17] You will also make more money.

[00:51:19] Yeah.

[00:51:20] You will also make more money.

[00:51:21] Correct.

[00:51:23] I mean, enlightened self-interest to say, tell us Bangalore.

[00:51:27] I am happy to pay more money to the government if they get the thing done.

[00:51:31] That is essentially why we resort to the private sector also.

[00:51:34] So, Bangalore, you talk about Bangalore.

[00:51:35] Bangalore is the science capital, IT capital, BT capital, fashion capital, electronic capital,

[00:51:40] aviation capital.

[00:51:41] It is electrical capital.

[00:51:43] It is a fashion capital.

[00:51:44] You know, anything that you talk about, it is the capital of India.

[00:51:47] Bangalore is the city of the future.

[00:51:50] In Bangalore, you can see what India can become in the future.

[00:51:52] It requires better governance and loving tender care by government.

[00:51:56] And more public transport and proper investment.

[00:51:59] And government can always invite the private sector to run the buses, etc.

[00:52:03] For public transport.

[00:52:04] They will run.

[00:52:04] People can afford to pay.

[00:52:06] Bangalore has got how many taxis?

[00:52:08] 2 lakh taxis.

[00:52:09] 3 to 4 lakh autos.

[00:52:11] The auto-insured drivers extort money from you.

[00:52:13] They don't go by meter.

[00:52:15] Yeah.

[00:52:15] They extort money.

[00:52:16] Where is law and order then?

[00:52:17] Where is rule of law?

[00:52:18] For all these people in the government.

[00:52:22] Where is rule of law when you can't get the tax with the auto-driver to use the meter?

[00:52:26] They are an absolute harassment.

[00:52:27] Increase the meter price is okay.

[00:52:30] Who are you trying to protect?

[00:52:31] When that fellow doesn't go by meter itself.

[00:52:33] Your asset is paying through our nose.

[00:52:34] Double the meter fare.

[00:52:36] But say go by meter.

[00:52:37] Prosecute them if they don't.

[00:52:38] Let them also make money.

[00:52:39] Correct.

[00:52:39] What is there?

[00:52:40] They are offering a service.

[00:52:41] Why should it be so cheap?

[00:52:42] Why should the auto-reaction driver subsidize you?

[00:52:46] Why should it be like that?

[00:52:47] Correct?

[00:52:48] You know, they must think pragmatically and work.

[00:52:50] They are trying to protect their Bangalore Metroport Transport Corporation.

[00:52:54] It's broken.

[00:52:56] 6,000 buses, 5,000 buses running.

[00:52:58] Some 3,000 buses more than 10 years.

[00:53:00] It's broken.

[00:53:01] Drivers are paid very well.

[00:53:02] 800 or 900 drivers don't come to work.

[00:53:05] They are trying to protect them.

[00:53:07] Why don't you open it up and privatize it?

[00:53:08] Don't privatize them.

[00:53:09] Let them die.

[00:53:10] Do whatever it is.

[00:53:11] You give it to others to do.

[00:53:13] So we, the people for whom you are there, we get the benefit of public transport.

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Thank you so much, sir, for giving us your time.

[00:53:21] Always a pleasure talking to you.

[00:53:22] Like...